Guild Wars 2

moronwmachinegun.3815:

Where did I say I had a problem with the way the TP operates? I was being descriptive, not prescriptive. The TP is fine the way it is, the problem are the inputs into the TP.

I was skimming Ohoni’s wall of text and somehow I thought your wall of text was a continuation of his post. Sorry if I misinterpreted your intent.

munkiman.3068:

I’m all for crafting for profit, but i’d love to see you prove you’re making more in crafting than trading. I’m not sure how you would do it though without giving away your secret. I know personally i’ve made so much off cooking, while flipping cooking mats profits are so much higher. I have all 400-500 crafting, i’ve tried to turn ascended crafts and it worked well in the short term, but now it’s kinda a dead market, for profit anyway.

I didnt say i would make more with only crafting than i do now with multiple activities, i said i would be able to make so much profit that you would deem it unreasonably high rewards.

With crafting, you cant concentrate on just one market because you would saturate the market. The key is to spread your crafting. Iwould propably cycle through a couple of hundred different items that i would craft in a rotation.

Ohoni.6057:

It would at least be a step in the right direction, but does raise a few follow-up questions.

1. Why are the “more efficient” methods they used rewarded more by the game’s mechanics, when this is a game and the goals should be fun rather than pure efficiency? I can understand certain methods providing slightly more reward than others, of course, but if any methods produce significantly higher rewards then they should be brought in line with the others. This should be a game, not a job.

2. How do you know how much time I spend in the game (this is directed at you, Wanze), and if I play half as much, am I only earning half as much, or is the difference larger than that? If someone is playing twice as much then I don’t mind them making twice as much, but it wouldn’t justify them making more than that.

3. I’m aware that some people turn gems into gold, but until I hear it directly from someone at ANet, I refuse to believe that this element is significant to ANet’s profit margins when compared to things like straight cash-to-gemstore purchasing, and I believe that reducing the availability and/or worth of gold in the game, while it may reduce the gem-to-gold profits by some degree, would also raise their cash-to gems profits by reducing the number of players that convert gold to gems, and by resulting in a larger and happier playerbase, more willing to spend their cash to buy gemstore goods.

It’s worth considering that people who have easy access to ingame gold, for which gold is a trivial currency that they can drop like pocket change, are far more likely to convert that gold into gems to buy things on the gem store, cutting into ANet’s profits, than are players who have some gold but not nearly enough to view it as a trivial resource.

Again, I may be wrong on that, but nobody without access to ANet’s internals is in any position to correct me on that.

1. Rewards, be it gold, loot or other in game currencies, are created and added to the game economy by being awarded to you, once you complete a specific task. These tasks have a wide range from killing a mob to completing events or dungeons or exploring the world. Some people are able to complete these tasks faster than others which results in a higher rate of rewards. Also some tasks require more skill and coordination between a small or very large group of players, so those tasks usually have a higher reward rate. If we think that some activities reward too much or too less, we try to address it. And we absolutely agree that this game should be fun!
Thats why we designed it in a way that make luxury items completely optional and not required to enjoy all game content. If you have a special task in mind that in your opinion gives out too much rewards upon completion, please let us know and we will have a look at it. Thank you for your question.

2. I thought you mentioned in one of your earlier posts that you started playing close to launch and logged around 3000 hours until now. If thats not the case and i mixed you up, i apologise. If you log in for an hour and kill critters, you will get 0 reward, unless you complete a daily task,if someone else logs in for 2 hours and clears 8 dungeon paths, his rewards would be significantly higher, propably 20g in gold rewards and loot, plus dungeon tokens, karma, EXP, and skillpoints and he will complete 4-5 daily tasks. If you think, you deserve half his loot because you killed rabbits and frogs for an hour, well, I disagree.

3. So let me get this straight: You want Anet to reduce gold rewards in game, so less people will use gold to buy gems so the gold/gem ratio goes down, devaluing (even though very little) the attraction of buying gems to convert them to gold. This somehow attracts more players and everybody is happier than before and buys more gems with real money to spend in the gem store? I dont think it works that way.
If Anet closes the gold faucet a little so the average player only earns 7g per day instead of 10g, the gold price for gems might go down by 30% but it would still mean that 800 gems converted to gold have the same buying power in game than before.

Non of this will change the fact that people who spend money on this game will get luxury items at a faster pace than you.

Wanze.8410:

If you can tell me what the droprate of precursors has to do with the motion of limiting potential profits on the tp, which is being discussed in this topic, i will answer you.

People are complaining the game has a fever. You are arguing it doesn’t exist, and apparently want to argue if ibuprofen or acetaminophen is better. My point is the real problem is the TB infection in the lungs. Fixing that fixes the fever, and makes the game healthier.

If precursors were only 10GP on the exchange nobody would be complaining about all the “TP barons” profits. I’ve described my hypothesis and provided John a list of data he can look into. I’ll hold further comments until he chips in.

I like how the conversation went from taxing the rich to improving the precursor drop rate or providing a guarantee way to earn one in standard play. I think we are starting to get closer to the root of the real issue here after 800 posts.

That’s basically the root cause of any complaint in a game’s economy: “It’s too hard or taking too long to get what I want!”

I’m not against making it much easier for players to get luxury items or exclusive skins, but I fear that would have a detrimental effect on the longevity of the game (as players tend to move on once they’ve accomplished their goals), and on the feeling of satisfaction players have when a goal is achieved. That said, we do need to constantly monitor the goal posts so that they are achievable by most players who set out to reach them.

Legendaries, while a hard slog, are definitely doable by a large segment of the player base as evidenced by how many we see in the game every day. I think players might just have the impression that you should be able to get them within a couple months, when they’re really intended to be more of a year (or two) long goal.

Zaxares.5419:

That’s basically the root cause of any complaint in a game’s economy: “It’s too hard or taking too long to get what I want!”

I’m not against making it much easier for players to get luxury items or exclusive skins, but I fear that would have a detrimental effect on the longevity of the game (as players tend to move on once they’ve accomplished their goals), and on the feeling of satisfaction players have when a goal is achieved. That said, we do need to constantly monitor the goal posts so that they are achievable by most players who set out to reach them.

Legendaries, while a hard slog, are definitely doable by a large segment of the player base as evidenced by how many we see in the game every day. I think players might just have the impression that you should be able to get them within a couple months, when they’re really intended to be more of a year (or two) long goal.

While I agree there are quite a few that seem based on that, lumping all concerns about the game’s economy into it is fallacious.

As for being detrimental to the longevity of the game? I don’t buy that for a second. It would not take them much longer to design/code a new set of high end skins than it does for them to design/code a new set of gem shops skins.

Players are far more likely to get bored and leave the game after they obtain a Legendary than they are to get frustrated and leave the game in the middle of the attempt.

Crafting a Legendary weapon represents (to most players) the highest achievement in the game, the longest and most difficult goal and sets them apart from 95% of the players in the game. Then they realize they went through all that work just to get a pretty sword skin that leaves trails in the air when you swing it around…

Once you have it, what’s next? Make another one? That’s a worthwhile goal for some, but many players tend to drift away from the game after that. Without a constant stream of new challenges (and gear resets) or the sense of urgency that comes with paying a monthly sub (if I don’t log in today I wasted fitty cents!) it can be hard to find another long-term goal to focus on.

That’s why they haven’t put the much-discussed scavenger hunt/crafting method to obtaining a precursor into the game. It’s a much more complicated issue than just “do X, then Y, then Z and you get a precursor” and simply increasing the drop rates will disappoint nearly everyone as they compound their original mistake (precursors should have bound on pickup, at least to account) by making them as common and as worthless as the average exotic.

I’m not sure why people don’t get it, but this is the sort of thing Anet devs have been discussing among themselves for over a year now, and I’m pretty sure they thought of all the ideas a handful of amateur devs can come up with already. If these plans had any chance to work we would have seen them happen.

Zaxares.5419:

That’s basically the root cause of any complaint in a game’s economy: “It’s too hard or taking too long to get what I want!”

I’m not against making it much easier for players to get luxury items or exclusive skins, but I fear that would have a detrimental effect on the longevity of the game (as players tend to move on once they’ve accomplished their goals), and on the feeling of satisfaction players have when a goal is achieved. That said, we do need to constantly monitor the goal posts so that they are achievable by most players who set out to reach them.

Legendaries, while a hard slog, are definitely doable by a large segment of the player base as evidenced by how many we see in the game every day. I think players might just have the impression that you should be able to get them within a couple months, when they’re really intended to be more of a year (or two) long goal.

It’s trivial to limit the precursor map scraps to 1/day or whatever. I didn’t say in my proposal it had to be easy to get, in fact I stated it should be about 2-3x whatever the median is now. That would limit how much suffering a player has to endure – and believe me it is suffering when you’re in that 1% unluckiest and get to hear about the 1% luckiest in your 500 man guild who manages to get a precursor in 50 tries. (I have never tried for precursor btw, and I don’t plan on it any time soon, if ever, so I don’t have a horse in this race. I’d rather spend my time crafting ascended knowing I have a destination I can guarantee reaching) In another game a guildie had done over 600 missions on a toon and not gotten a single equivalent drop, while I did <10 on one of mine and got all three.

How much of a effect do you think flushing the toilet the 1,000th time has on a player’s enjoyment of the game, vs how many people who have legendaries and stop playing? Anyone seen a “I got my legendary, and now I’m quitting” thread?

I’d also dispute your “large segment” comment, but I’m not going to sit around Vigil Keep counting legendary footsteps – my feel is more like a “pretty small percent”; probably <5% of the “plays more that 20 hours a week” group of players has a legendary. John could lookup that info for his own information, but I doubt he would be able to share. And remember, any time you have a low-probability RNG with a population base as large as an MMO, you’ll end up with a large number of people getting screwed by the laws of statistics, not necessarily large percentage wise, but even 1% on a 100,000 trying for a precursor is still 1k+ very unhappy people.

Oh, believe me, I am NOT a fan of RNG. I fully support the Precursor Scavenger Hunt idea and eagerly look forward to when it will be implemented. I am also an ardent supporter of the SAB model of rewards where you can bypass the RNG, but at the cost of having your item be account-bound so it’s only usable by you.

I don’t have exact numbers, no, but it really does feel like every 10th or so player I pass by in town or WvW has a Legendary. (This number goes up when I attend things like TTS attempts on Tequatl or the Wurm.) Going by that old data John provided about the number of Dusks being sold in a day, I think it’d not outside of reasonable bounds to assume that at least a couple of Legendaries are created every single day. True, some of these are by players who are making multiple Legendaries, but I think the vast majority of them would be first-time Legendary owners.

I’d also love to know just how many players are actively going for a Legendary too. I know that I and my girlfriend aren’t; me because I’m not particularly taken by any of the current Legendary aesthetics, and her because she doesn’t play the game enough to justify sinking that much time/money into it.

While this is a goal that I believe the devs want, sadly human nature intervenes and you end up with dungeon speed runs, champ and boss chest trains, T6 harvesting in Orr with every L80 character on their roster.

Sure, and in many cases in the past the devs have nerfed these options, making them less efficient. All we’re asking is that they turn that same gaze on the TP. Players will always try to find the best deals, the easiest paths forward. It’s the developers job to bring these paths back into line, not to ignore them.

That shows that a lot of gold and gems are flowing into and out of the exchange. And since the exchange has a baked in 38.4% markup between selling gems and buying them, I doubt it’s players cashing in their gold bought gems from months ago for gold.

I honestly don’t have the interest to run the numbers on this one, so take it for whatever you like, but I bet a lot of the people who buy gold with gems are just cashing out their change from a gem store purchase. Like they picked up 800 gems for a 640 gem item, and cashed out the remainder. This might be made apparent by tracking the rates around when cool items or sales appear on the market, but it’d be tricky to pin down.

All additional gold being pumped into the economy does is artificially increase the price of items, when in reality, the purchasing power remains the same.

Right, which is why they can’t address this by just pumping in more rewards, but instead by reducing the profit potential of the TP, or reducing the worth of gold by providing alternative tracks for earning things.

Thats why we designed it in a way that make luxury items completely optional and not required to enjoy all game content. If you have a special task in mind that in your opinion gives out too much rewards upon completion, please let us know and we will have a look at it. Thank you for your question.

The trading post, thank you.

And don’t come back with “profits on the trading post are not a reward,” that’s a ridiculously narrow definition of “reward.” The actual definition of “reward” would be inclusive of ALL income in exchange for action, whether distributed by the game loot tables or from other players.

2. I thought you mentioned in one of your earlier posts that you started playing close to launch and logged around 3000 hours until now.

I have been playing since pre-release (since beta technically, but irrelevant to this discussion), but never said my playtime, mostly because I didn’t know it. I did just check though, and am only at 1972 hours, so if you’ve played for 6000 hours then you are well deserved to have 3-3.5 times as much as I do, fair enough, but I expect there are those who have played less time and made more than that.

If you log in for an hour and kill critters, you will get 0 reward, unless you complete a daily task,if someone else logs in for 2 hours and clears 8 dungeon paths, his rewards would be significantly higher, propably 20g in gold rewards and loot, plus dungeon tokens, karma, EXP, and skillpoints and he will complete 4-5 daily tasks. If you think, you deserve half his loot because you killed rabbits and frogs for an hour, well, I disagree.

Strawman. Nobody is arguing that killing critters for an hour should give you as much reward as running actual game content, any more than standing around in town with your UI out should. The point is that actual ingame activities that involve actual gameplay should offer comparable rewards. Whether you prefer to run Fractals, Dungeons, WvW, world bosses, event chains, champ farms, TP farming, whatever, they should offer similar levels of reward for the time and effort invested. Activities that are considered more difficult can offer slightly higher levels of reward, but should not offer excessively higher reward, otherwise why bother even offering the other types of content that aren’t worth doing?

3. So let me get this straight: You want Anet to reduce gold rewards in game, so less people will use gold to buy gems so the gold/gem ratio goes down, devaluing (even though very little) the attraction of buying gems to convert them to gold. This somehow attracts more players and everybody is happier than before and buys more gems with real money to spend in the gem store? I dont think it works that way.
If Anet closes the gold faucet a little so the average player only earns 7g per day instead of 10g, the gold price for gems might go down by 30% but it would still mean that 800 gems converted to gold have the same buying power in game than before.

I’m not advocating making any changes to the game with impacting the gem-to-gold ratios as a goal. I honestly don’t care what they are. It has been suggested by others, however, that suggestions I’ve made might, as a side effect, make players less interested in buying gold with cash. My assertion to this is that I highly doubt the cash-to-gold market is a vital part of ANet’s business model, and that for what it is, any changes I’ve suggested would barely notch it anyways.

People have said “ANet should not cut their own profits just to make the players happier,” my response is that I agree, but I don’t believe these suggestions will hurt their net profits. ANet is free to disagree, since they know exactly how much they make on those elements, but between us we’ve argued out the point as best we can without the numbers to back up either side.

I like how the conversation went from taxing the rich to improving the precursor drop rate or providing a guarantee way to earn one in standard play. I think we are starting to get closer to the root of the real issue here after 800 posts.

It’s certainly a factor, one of the most glaring symptoms of the problem. You speak as if there is some grand conspiracy afoot to hide the truth of the discussion.

I’m not against making it much easier for players to get luxury items or exclusive skins, but I fear that would have a detrimental effect on the longevity of the game (as players tend to move on once they’ve accomplished their goals),

Personally, my goal is to enjoy the game. Every time there’s a new patch, I hunt down the achievements, and fun the new content to get the rewards specific to it. I’ve got eight level 80s and enjoy improving my skills. If I had a Legendary, I’d try for another. Realistically there are about two existing Legendaries I’d put any real effort into, another couple I’d pick up if they were effortless but wouldn’t bother to work for, and the rest I couldn’t care less about. Earning one would be nice, it’s a goal I care about, but it’s far from the goal that I work towards, or I would be playing the game very differently.

Everyone’s goals are different though. Some people just want to hit cap, and once they do they leave. You can do that in an afternoon in this game if you know what you’re doing and have the means. They can’t be overly concerned about players “meeting their goals.” Plenty of players already have Legendaries, and given how many of them I see actually playing the game each night, I have to assume that they didn’t leave the moment they got one. All they need to do is keep providing new reasons for people to keep playing the game. If they really are scared of players leaving as soon as they get a Legendary, then they should clamp down on the markets even harder than I’m suggesting, as that’s one of the primary ways that people acquire them.

Players are far more likely to get bored and leave the game after they obtain a Legendary than they are to get frustrated and leave the game in the middle of the attempt.

Nah. Speculation without basis. It assumes that the average player’s endgame goal is to get a Legendary and get out, when in fact plenty of players have earned their Legendary and stayed, or have quit without even coming close to one. It’s fair to argue that if a player is very close to earning one and on the verge of burning out then he might push a little longer to cross the finish line, but that’s a fringe case, and if the player is never even close to the finish line because of the gold necessary then it’s a moot point anyways.

Crafting a Legendary weapon represents (to most players) the highest achievement in the game, the longest and most difficult goal and sets them apart from 95% of the players in the game.

Lol, it’s far from the highest achievement in the game. Any idiot can pic one up at the store, what’s the “achievement” in that? The highest achievement is to clear the actual achievements in the game, activities that take some actual effort. I do wish thought that the leaderboard factored out achievements that involved PvP and WvW though, not that I’d be anywhere near the top, but it would be nice to know where I’d stand next to those that haven’t earned any of those achievements.

I just want a Legendary because they look cool and I like to look cool while I play, not because I have some delusion about it’s value as an “achievement.”

I don’t have exact numbers, no, but it really does feel like every 10th or so player I pass by in town or WvW has a Legendary. (This number goes up when I attend things like TTS attempts on Tequatl or the Wurm.) Going by that old data John provided about the number of Dusks being sold in a day, I think it’d not outside of reasonable bounds to assume that at least a couple of Legendaries are created every single day. True, some of these are by players who are making multiple Legendaries, but I think the vast majority of them would be first-time Legendary owners.

And keep in mind alts. If I do ever get a Sunrise, the only ones who would ever see it are people running Claw of Jormag, because it’s going to my Warrior and that’s all she does at the moment. The rest of the night my other characters wouldn’t have one. If I got Dreamer it would go on my Thief, who travels around more, but honestly I really like her current sling-shot better. Not to get off topic, but I would LOVE if you could acquire Legendary “effects” and apply those to the weapon you were using without changing the model. Running around with a slingshot shooting ponies and with horseshoe footsteps? Yes please. I also really love the look and style of Kudzu, but don’t enjoy playing LB on any of my characters, but would love to get Ookami steps and flower shots with SBs, rifles, even swords!

Ohoni.6057:

Sure, and in many cases in the past the devs have nerfed these options, making them less efficient. All we’re asking is that they turn that same gaze on the TP. Players will always try to find the best deals, the easiest paths forward. It’s the developers job to bring these paths back into line, not to ignore them.

But those rewards are directed by the devs for those events. The TP isn’t an event, it’s a simple tool used for secure trading and sinking coin. As long as players choose to use it like a vendor then there will always be an opportunity for players to step in and provide the service of immediacy and supply, for a small fee. The only way to “fix” that is to break the TP in one form or another.

We already said many times:

There are lot of gold sinks like ascended armors, waypoint costs, WWW (this is really huge) and many more.

Those are fair

And then we have this joke of economy that is both unfair, unbalanced and poorly managed….

But helps gem sales pushing every nice non TP skin out of reach.

Then we have an economist who has numbers and its an economist and uses his syuperior knowledge to balance demand offer like he did with silk…

Clearly the first day seemed a huge mistake….but we are not economists..
Nowaday silk is more expensive than gossamer….but we are just uneducated we can t see the big plan…

But those rewards are directed by the devs for those events. The TP isn’t an event, it’s a simple tool used for secure trading and sinking coin. As long as players choose to use it like a vendor then there will always be an opportunity for players to step in and provide the service of immediacy and supply, for a small fee. The only way to “fix” that is to break the TP in one form or another.

There have been several suggestions put forth to limit the amount of profit players could take off the TP, without significantly impacting it’s legitimate use to facilitate commerce between players. Players will always find a way to game the system, just as they do when farming opportunities are nerfed, but that’s why the devs need to stay one step ahead of them, rather than just throwing up their hands. They need to support the makers, not the takers.

LordByron.8369:

And then we have this joke of economy that is both unfair, unbalanced and poorly managed….

And yet you are utterly unable to demonstrate that the economy is unfair, unbalanced or poorly managed.

There have been several suggestions put forth to limit the amount of profit players could take off the TP, without significantly impacting it’s legitimate use to facilitate commerce between players.

And each and every time it has been pointed out that you have not given a credible case as to why that should be done. Perhaps when you give us some evidence that it is needed, or respond to JS and outline exactly what metrics you would need in order to prove your hypothesis and how you would go about doing as such, then the debate would get somewhere.

Do you post anything over than “feed me evidence!”?

Fenrir.3609:

And yet you are utterly unable to demonstrate that the economy is unfair, unbalanced or poorly managed.

I think is more you didn t read…

http://www.gw2spidy.com/item/19748
http://www.gw2spidy.com/item/19745
http://www.gw2spidy.com/item/19729
http://www.gw2spidy.com/item/19743
http://www.gw2spidy.com/item/19700

http://www.gw2spidy.com/item/29181

Ohoni.6057:

Do you post anything over than “feed me evidence!”?

I apologise for expecting people to have some actual facts to back up their arguments when asking for major system changes.

You will find I only mention “muh evidence” to the posters who repeatedly keep insinuating there are issues/disparities et al as though it is gospel, whilst repeatedly failing to provide any evidence to back up their claims, or to even bother to state what evidence they would like to support their claims.

Other pro change posters have at least confirmed they need data from JS to back their case up and have even gone so far as to say that even with said data, it would still be hard to prove and issue exists. I.e. they move the debate along in a progressive manner.

“I think there is an issue, whilst I have tried to get data to point to it myself (outlines his methods) I need, x, y, z data and I will use it (explains exactly how) to point to there being issues with the economy. From this we will see that x, y, x changes need to be made for the good of the game”. Is, as has been pointed out, the best way to progress the debate.

I think is more you didn t read…

Please tell me that is a joke.

I apologise for expecting people to have some actual facts to back up their arguments when asking for major system changes.

Apology accepted, go forth and harm no more.

Ohoni.6057:

Thats why we designed it in a way that make luxury items completely optional and not required to enjoy all game content. If you have a special task in mind that in your opinion gives out too much rewards upon completion, please let us know and we will have a look at it. Thank you for your question.

The trading post, thank you.

And don’t come back with “profits on the trading post are not a reward,” that’s a ridiculously narrow definition of “reward.” The actual definition of “reward” would be inclusive of ALL income in exchange for action, whether distributed by the game loot tables or from other players.

Thanks for your concern about potential profit margins on the TP. These profits are not as easily defined as a reward from other activities. This has several reasons.

The TP doesnt create fixed rewards for completing certain specified tasks. The reward or profit is give from 1 player to another in exchange for convenience, for example for selling or buying an item immediately or buying an item that is hard to get for a player, like a crafted item from a crafting profession the player hasnt maxed yet or a rare item that hasnt dropped for a player.
We think that the Trading Post works extremely well as a tool of trading between players at prices established by players.
If 1 player gives a reward/profit to another player, there is little we can do about it because that player made a conscious choice of doing so and decided how much convenience or instant gratification is worth for him.
Because potential profits are a direct result of other peoples choices, we think attempting to regulate profits on the tp can only be achieved by regulating or limiting other peoples choices as well. This is something we dontintend to do because it would limit the fuctionality of the TP.
We also think, as every player makes a conscious choice of how much of a profit he wants to give to another player for instant gratification and convenience, the mayority of the player base is indifferent to the fact that some players might make more profits on the TP than they do through guaranteed rewards.

However, if you want us to have a 2nd look on profit margins on the TP, please let us know how you want us to measure profit on the TP. One reason why we dont classify profits on the tp as rewards, is because the output cant be regulated by us like we can for completing other certain tasks in the game.

As you stated that profit margins on the TP are too high compared to other rewards in game, please explain to us, how you came to that conclusion and how you would calculate profits on the Trading Post.

If we have a clear method of measuring profits, we might be able to find a way to limit those profits.

One reason it’s hard to give a measuring stick to profits off the TP (dont give me the “same effort” crap), is the fact that it’s hard to actually quantify the risk and assign it a definite value.
Another reason it’s going to be hard is the fact that people can make profit off the tradepost doing nothing but events, crafting and mob farming, much like I have the last month. They have to liquidate their products somewhere, and that somewhere happens to be the trade post. Sometimes they’re less interested in maximizing the “per sale” profit of their farming and minimizing the time spent counting beans and maximizing the time murdering what they see as pinatas.

LordByron.8369:

Fenrir.3609:

And yet you are utterly unable to demonstrate that the economy is unfair, unbalanced or poorly managed.

I think is more you didn t read…

http://www.gw2spidy.com/item/19748
http://www.gw2spidy.com/item/19745
http://www.gw2spidy.com/item/19729
http://www.gw2spidy.com/item/19743
http://www.gw2spidy.com/item/19700

http://www.gw2spidy.com/item/29181

Okay but WHY does this mean the economy is unbalanced? And don’t say because the lower tier items are more valuable than the upper tier because it doesn’t matter.

LordByron.8369:

I think is more you didn t read…

http://www.gw2spidy.com/item/19748
http://www.gw2spidy.com/item/19745
http://www.gw2spidy.com/item/19729
http://www.gw2spidy.com/item/19743
http://www.gw2spidy.com/item/19700

http://www.gw2spidy.com/item/29181

Supply and Demand
Supply and Demand
Supply and Demand
Supply and Demand
Supply and Demand

Supply and Demand

None of those links support your argument. Did you link the wrong things?

Aidan Savage.2078:

TooBz.3065:

Brother Grimm.5176:

Let’s be honest, this request has NOTHING to do with being “RICH” in GW2. It is direct attempt to “punish” (yes, I used the word) those that choose to “play the BLTP”. If Anet does not feel it necessary to put limit or stop his way of “playing the game”, then those that choose to be full time traders are doing nothing against the rules of the game that requires them to be “punished”.

I disagree. This is asking for the incentives to play the BLTP to be reduced. There’s just too much money to be made there and it’s unfun for other players.

When they nerf champion bags it’s not to punish people who run the champ train. It’s to a) balance the economy and b) encourage people to do other stuff.

So just because it’s “unfun” for other players it should be nerfed? Alright, champ trains, dungeons, and world bosses are unfun for me. Nerf it plox, anet. You do see how ridiculous that is, right? If there’s that much “money to be made” on the trade post, there’s vastly easier solutions than suggesting ideas that impact low-cash players far more than it ever affects TP players. You know, like educating players on HOW money is made on the trade post.

Unfortunately, in any game with a market like this, asking to reduce the incentive, or profit, of taking advantage of market trends, is basically saying “I cant make money, therefore market wolves shouldnt make money either.” In fact, many of the other games that encourage market manipulation, encourage it so much that they openly support players using cutthroat tactics to defend, take over, or destroy profitability of markets. There are entire clans and guilds dedicated to such activities.

Obviously Anet doesnt encourage such tactics, but they do not outright ban people for doing it either. In fact, some members of my guild had been bored enough at one point that they establishekittenhril ingot wall at roughly 85c with 2.5 million in the wall just because they had that many stacks of the stuff lying around.

champ trains — nerfed,
dungeons – nerfed,
world bosses -- nerfed

Everyone one of those has already been nerfed. Every other way of making money in this game gets shafted except for the TP. Maybe it’s your turn.

Anyway, I don’t think the BLTP will be nerfed or could be nerfed with it’s current design, so there’s no reason to get into a twist. But that doesn’t mean I don’t think something should be done, or that anyone’s offered a compelling reason why it shouldn’t.

Discussion about risk is largely irrelevant (IMO) because anything that capped earnings would also limit risk.

Could you imagine? DR on the TP, after 20 minutes of trading your profit gets cut in half? How about RNG, you still pay your gold, but you may or might not get or item. Perhaps a porous bone instead :P

munkiman.3068:

Could you imagine? DR on the TP, after 20 minutes of trading your profit gets cut in half? How about RNG, you still pay your gold, but you may or might not get or item. Perhaps a porous bone instead :P

OK, start by telling me your formula of how you measure profit on the tp.

Wanze.8410:

munkiman.3068:

Could you imagine? DR on the TP, after 20 minutes of trading your profit gets cut in half? How about RNG, you still pay your gold, but you may or might not get or item. Perhaps a porous bone instead :P

OK, start by telling me your formula of how you measure profit on the tp.

Sale price * .85 – buy price?

edit: FYI, he wasn’t serious. He was just applying the money making restrictions on the rest of the game to the TP.

TooBz.3065:

Wanze.8410:

munkiman.3068:

Could you imagine? DR on the TP, after 20 minutes of trading your profit gets cut in half? How about RNG, you still pay your gold, but you may or might not get or item. Perhaps a porous bone instead :P

OK, start by telling me your formula of how you measure profit on the tp.

Sale price * .85 – buy price?

edit: FYI, he wasn’t serious. He was just applying the money making restrictions on the rest of the game to the TP.

Doubtful since his previous suggestions have been very similar in ridiculousness.

Also what if I don’t buy the item? What if I just go around farming routes to sell?

TooBz.3065:

Wanze.8410:

munkiman.3068:

Could you imagine? DR on the TP, after 20 minutes of trading your profit gets cut in half? How about RNG, you still pay your gold, but you may or might not get or item. Perhaps a porous bone instead :P

OK, start by telling me your formula of how you measure profit on the tp.

Sale price * .85 – buy price?

I buy item X for 85 cent and sell it for 1s, then i kill mob Y, get 2 Item X as a loot, i sell one today for 1s and 1 tomorrow for 2s.

How much profit did i make on the tp in this example?

Schizo.1375:

TooBz.3065:

Wanze.8410:

munkiman.3068:

Could you imagine? DR on the TP, after 20 minutes of trading your profit gets cut in half? How about RNG, you still pay your gold, but you may or might not get or item. Perhaps a porous bone instead :P

OK, start by telling me your formula of how you measure profit on the tp.

Sale price * .85 – buy price?

edit: FYI, he wasn’t serious. He was just applying the money making restrictions on the rest of the game to the TP.

Doubtful since his previous suggestions have been very similar in ridiculousness.

Also what if I don’t buy the item? What if I just go around farming routes to sell?

To keep the game balanced with current earnings, items that you farm yourself and sell through the TP will be taxed at a flat 100%.

(Just for those few people who don’t understand my somewhat dry wit. That is a joke. DR on the TP inherently doesn’t make sense. If one were to limit the TP it would have to be based on volume not profit.)

Edit 2: I am not advocating limited TP by volume. Just saying that’s where you’d have to start.

Schizo.1375:

TooBz.3065:

Wanze.8410:

munkiman.3068:

Could you imagine? DR on the TP, after 20 minutes of trading your profit gets cut in half? How about RNG, you still pay your gold, but you may or might not get or item. Perhaps a porous bone instead :P

OK, start by telling me your formula of how you measure profit on the tp.

Sale price * .85 – buy price?

edit: FYI, he wasn’t serious. He was just applying the money making restrictions on the rest of the game to the TP.

Doubtful since his previous suggestions have been very similar in ridiculousness.

Also what if I don’t buy the item? What if I just go around farming routes to sell?

I was being silly. Just because you didn’t understand the suggestions doesn’t make them ridiculous.

TooBz.3065:

Schizo.1375:

TooBz.3065:

Wanze.8410:

munkiman.3068:

Could you imagine? DR on the TP, after 20 minutes of trading your profit gets cut in half? How about RNG, you still pay your gold, but you may or might not get or item. Perhaps a porous bone instead :P

OK, start by telling me your formula of how you measure profit on the tp.

Sale price * .85 – buy price?

edit: FYI, he wasn’t serious. He was just applying the money making restrictions on the rest of the game to the TP.

Doubtful since his previous suggestions have been very similar in ridiculousness.

Also what if I don’t buy the item? What if I just go around farming routes to sell?

To keep the game balanced with current earnings, items that you farm yourself and sell through the TP will be taxed at a flat 100%.

(Just for those few people who don’t understand my somewhat dry wit. That is a joke. DR on the TP inherently doesn’t make sense. If one were to limit the TP it would have to be based on volume not profit.)

Edit 2: I am not advocating limited TP by volume. Just saying that’s where you’d have to start.

OK, start with volume then. Give me an example how you would do it, that would limit profits on the tp without limiting the trading post itself.

P.S.: you still havent proven, how profits on the TP can effectively be measured.

munkiman.3068:

Schizo.1375:

TooBz.3065:

Wanze.8410:

munkiman.3068:

Could you imagine? DR on the TP, after 20 minutes of trading your profit gets cut in half? How about RNG, you still pay your gold, but you may or might not get or item. Perhaps a porous bone instead :P

OK, start by telling me your formula of how you measure profit on the tp.

Sale price * .85 – buy price?

edit: FYI, he wasn’t serious. He was just applying the money making restrictions on the rest of the game to the TP.

Doubtful since his previous suggestions have been very similar in ridiculousness.

Also what if I don’t buy the item? What if I just go around farming routes to sell?

I was being silly. Just because you didn’t understand the suggestions doesn’t make them ridiculous.

Your right I don’t understand how any of the suggestions given here would work because they have been shown to be unworkable each and every time.

Edit: We also still haven’t identified a problem so we shouldn’t be discussing solutions.

Wanze.8410:

TooBz.3065:

Schizo.1375:

TooBz.3065:

Wanze.8410:

munkiman.3068:

Could you imagine? DR on the TP, after 20 minutes of trading your profit gets cut in half? How about RNG, you still pay your gold, but you may or might not get or item. Perhaps a porous bone instead :P

OK, start by telling me your formula of how you measure profit on the tp.

Sale price * .85 – buy price?

edit: FYI, he wasn’t serious. He was just applying the money making restrictions on the rest of the game to the TP.

Doubtful since his previous suggestions have been very similar in ridiculousness.

Also what if I don’t buy the item? What if I just go around farming routes to sell?

To keep the game balanced with current earnings, items that you farm yourself and sell through the TP will be taxed at a flat 100%.

(Just for those few people who don’t understand my somewhat dry wit. That is a joke. DR on the TP inherently doesn’t make sense. If one were to limit the TP it would have to be based on volume not profit.)

Edit 2: I am not advocating limited TP by volume. Just saying that’s where you’d have to start.

OK, start with volume then. Give me an example how you would do it, that would limit profits on the tp without limiting the trading post itself.

P.S.: you still havent proven, how profits on the TP can effectively be measured.

A) How else to you measure profit rather than price – fees – cost?
B) I’m not trying to prove anything, because I’m not posting a suggestion.
C) There’s no reason I can’t limit the trading post this is hypothetical, I don’t have to play by your rules (the you’re not the boss of me defense) / nor are you JS.

But if I wanted to limit the TP, here is how I would do it 1) traders are limited to X sell orders or Y g in sell orders / day. Whichever results in more orders (that is, you can sell lots of cheap items or a few expensive items.).

To argue that this would limit the trading post you are essentially saying that people who sell more than that make up a substantial portion of the trades and that removing those people would adversely harm the TP. I don’t believe those two things are true. If you want to discuss this, please respond with something more thoughtful than a glib one-liner.

TooBz.3065:

Wanze.8410:

TooBz.3065:

Schizo.1375:

TooBz.3065:

Wanze.8410:

munkiman.3068:

Could you imagine? DR on the TP, after 20 minutes of trading your profit gets cut in half? How about RNG, you still pay your gold, but you may or might not get or item. Perhaps a porous bone instead :P

OK, start by telling me your formula of how you measure profit on the tp.

Sale price * .85 – buy price?

edit: FYI, he wasn’t serious. He was just applying the money making restrictions on the rest of the game to the TP.

Doubtful since his previous suggestions have been very similar in ridiculousness.

Also what if I don’t buy the item? What if I just go around farming routes to sell?

To keep the game balanced with current earnings, items that you farm yourself and sell through the TP will be taxed at a flat 100%.

(Just for those few people who don’t understand my somewhat dry wit. That is a joke. DR on the TP inherently doesn’t make sense. If one were to limit the TP it would have to be based on volume not profit.)

Edit 2: I am not advocating limited TP by volume. Just saying that’s where you’d have to start.

OK, start with volume then. Give me an example how you would do it, that would limit profits on the tp without limiting the trading post itself.

P.S.: you still havent proven, how profits on the TP can effectively be measured.

A) How else to you measure profit rather than price – fees – cost?
B) I’m not trying to prove anything, because I’m not posting a suggestion.
C) There’s no reason I can’t limit the trading post this is hypothetical, I don’t have to play by your rules (the you’re not the boss of me defense) / nor are you JS.

But if I wanted to limit the TP, here is how I would do it 1) traders are limited to X sell orders or Y g in sell orders / day. Whichever results in more orders (that is, you can sell lots of cheap items or a few expensive items.).

To argue that this would limit the trading post you are essentially saying that people who sell more than that make up a substantial portion of the trades and that removing those people would adversely harm the TP. I don’t believe those two things are true. If you want to discuss this, please respond with something more thoughtful than a glib one-liner.

My point is that people asked to limit potential profits on the tp because the dont feel equally rewarded doing other activities.
I simply asked, how do you measure trading profits? This is essential, as first off all, its part of the proof that potential profits on the tp are too high. If we find a working formula or definition on how to measure profits, Anet can apply that formula and see, if profits on the tp are significantly higher for some players than others.
And Anet cant nerf, what they cant define.

Wanze.8410:

My point is that people asked to limit potential profits on the tp because the dont feel equally rewarded doing other activities.
I simply asked, how do you measure trading profits? This is essential, as first off all, its part of the proof that potential profits on the tp are too high. If we find a working formula or definition on how to measure profits, Anet can apply that formula and see, if profits on the tp are significantly higher for some players than others.
And Anet cant nerf, what they cant define.

Gah! Too many quotes. Personally, I would measure exactly what I said, the amount of currency made by selling something on the TP that was also acquired (by the same person) on the TP.

Further, just like taxes, I’d bread it down into long term speculation and short term flipping.

To me, those are “investment” income. Money made on the TP by farming and selling would not be counted (“earned” income — tax language, not mine).

TooBz.3065:

Wanze.8410:

My point is that people asked to limit potential profits on the tp because the dont feel equally rewarded doing other activities.
I simply asked, how do you measure trading profits? This is essential, as first off all, its part of the proof that potential profits on the tp are too high. If we find a working formula or definition on how to measure profits, Anet can apply that formula and see, if profits on the tp are significantly higher for some players than others.
And Anet cant nerf, what they cant define.

Gah! Too many quotes. Personally, I would measure exactly what I said, the amount of currency made by selling something on the TP that was also acquired (by the same person) on the TP.

Further, just like taxes, I’d bread it down into long term speculation and short term flipping.

To me, those are “investment” income. Money made on the TP by farming and selling would not be counted (“earned” income — tax language, not mine).

Just from a technical standpoint, the amount of resources that would be consumed in tracking the buy and sell price for each individual item in the game would be staggeringly huge.

Schizo.1375:

munkiman.3068:

Schizo.1375:

TooBz.3065:

Wanze.8410:

munkiman.3068:

Could you imagine? DR on the TP, after 20 minutes of trading your profit gets cut in half? How about RNG, you still pay your gold, but you may or might not get or item. Perhaps a porous bone instead :P

OK, start by telling me your formula of how you measure profit on the tp.

Sale price * .85 – buy price?

edit: FYI, he wasn’t serious. He was just applying the money making restrictions on the rest of the game to the TP.

Doubtful since his previous suggestions have been very similar in ridiculousness.

Also what if I don’t buy the item? What if I just go around farming routes to sell?

I was being silly. Just because you didn’t understand the suggestions doesn’t make them ridiculous.

Your right I don’t understand how any of the suggestions given here would work because they have been shown to be unworkable each and every time.

Edit: We also still haven’t identified a problem so we shouldn’t be discussing solutions.

They’ve only shown to be misunderstood, either by my poor explanation of them or poor reading comprehension. My suggestion only limits the function of flippers to flip product and only negatively affects the accidental purchases of items you could immediately resell. Nothing more than that. As for workarounds via another account, well anything a player does to workaround the designed limits of the game are usually bannable offenses.

I won’t continue to reiterate what i’ve already stated as to what i perceive are problems with the TP in it’s current state. I can certainly be wrong, but then again the counterpoints can just as well be also.

TooBz.3065:

Wanze.8410:

My point is that people asked to limit potential profits on the tp because the dont feel equally rewarded doing other activities.
I simply asked, how do you measure trading profits? This is essential, as first off all, its part of the proof that potential profits on the tp are too high. If we find a working formula or definition on how to measure profits, Anet can apply that formula and see, if profits on the tp are significantly higher for some players than others.
And Anet cant nerf, what they cant define.

Gah! Too many quotes. Personally, I would measure exactly what I said, the amount of currency made by selling something on the TP that was also acquired (by the same person) on the TP.

Further, just like taxes, I’d bread it down into long term speculation and short term flipping.

To me, those are “investment” income. Money made on the TP by farming and selling would not be counted (“earned” income — tax language, not mine).

As mtpelion already said, that would technically be very hard to implement but for discussions sake, lets assume thats possible. If it was, i think we should also track, what loot is worth, once it drops from regular gameplay, because regular players can also speculate long term with their loot drops.

How do you track items, once they have been altered? Example:
I bought 1 rare inscription on the tp for 36s and now i craft 1 each greatsword hilt and blade from mithril that i harvested myself and make a rare greatsword, which i sell for 50s. The 12 mithril ore have a highest buy order of 30 copper, resulting in 3.6s.
After fees and taxes I make 2.9s profit. Does that mean that 90% of the profit has to be accounted to tp playing and 10% to node farming?

What if a guildie sends me all unbound mats mats to craft a legendary and i chip in all account bound mats and craft the legendary, sell it and send 60% of the earnings back to my guildie. Now the system has to calculate and account for 10s of thousands of mats that went into crafting that legendary, which all came from my guildie and not me. I was just responsible for account bound currencies, so my part of the profit should be accounted to other activities, like dungeons/world completion/etc and not count towards speculative profits on the tp.

I hope you agree, that its technically very hard to implement and unfeasable.
But for discussions sake, lets assume anet implements profit tracking into items.
What would be your suggestion of limitation now? Please dont say X gold but a real figure which you find accurate.

Two points:

1) Regarding technical difficult, that’s somebody else’s problem. I assume that they could provide the same rigor and analysis to TP profits that they did to COF p.1 farming before they decided to nerf it. But given that Visa and Mastercard can successfully track hundreds of thousands of transactions a day (if not an hour) I’m unwilling to concede anything on technical feasibility.

2) I also know that you can look at your history and see what you’ve bought and sold over the past X days, so the data is there for mining. You may not be able to know that I bought this unidentified dye and later sold it, but I can look at how many dyes I’ve bought and sold. That makes for a reasonable approximation.

3) I would not track items that have been altered. I would only track pure investment and flipping. Which definitely simplifies the analysis.

Also, I will not state an actual amount, because I don’t have the numbers to figure one out, or the analysis tools to figure out what would be correct. I said I had a start, not a complete plan. If I say a number that’s too low, you’ll argue that I’m hurting the average Joe, if I say a number that’s too high, you’ll argue that it wouldn’t have any effect. Which is why I said X.

So let’s just put the profits of each person for a day on a graph (filtering out those who have no profit in the day). Use the mean. That means that half of the flippers / investors would not be affected and half of the flippers / investors would be reduced to trading at the mean.

Anyway, I’m not even advocating this. I don’t understand why I can’t point out where I would start looking without people trying to pick everything I say apart. It’s like I suggesting a nerf to stealth or something.

Final point and I’m done with this topic, because I don’t feel like you want to engage, I feel like you want to defend the status quo, which frankly, isn’t very interesting to me.

The TP will never be nerfed because it’s a sink not a source.

I believe jealousy, laziness, and utter disrespect of a valid, non-rule-breaking play style are the real issues here. Why punish those in this game who enjoy playing it economically? It is like saying, " that person has nicer clothes than me, they should make them pay for having nicer clothes than me." There is nothing unfair about those who have the ingenuity to use a market system for entertainment. The only thing that is unfair is the demand of those who wish to stifle such legitimate play style because they are unwilling to reach for what they can achieve. Before it is said, I do not " play the tp." I never have, and I don’t care that there are those that do. It doesn’t affect me. I can get all of the resources just as they did. I feel bad for John Smith, who has to deal with this loud and foolish noise. It’s a selfish and self-centered demand that is unfair. Yes this is abrasive, but that is typically the only way to get through tough and stiff ideas and selfishness.

munkiman.3068:

They’ve only shown to be misunderstood, either by my poor explanation of them or poor reading comprehension. My suggestion only limits the function of flippers to flip product and only negatively affects the accidental purchases of items you could immediately resell. Nothing more than that. As for workarounds via another account, well anything a player does to workaround the designed limits of the game are usually bannable offenses.

I’m glad we are resorting to personal attacks now. You have only ever tried to defend your argument when someone points out what is wrong with it. You have never until now claimed that people misinterpreted something. I have gone back through your older posts and have found no such suggestion but perhaps my reading comprehension is off.

Also I’m not sure what the last line is in context too but I don’t think Anet would ban people for shelling out money for a second account.

munkiman.3068:

I can certainly be wrong, but then again the counterpoints can just as well be also.

This is just an attempt at a scorched earth where if you can’t win you attempt to nullify the opponent’s argument without a real counter argument. Your right, despite all the reasons I could come up with to show why it’s not plausible I probably couldn’t definitively prove that Santa isn’t real.

TooBz.3065:

Final point and I’m done with this topic, because I don’t feel like you want to engage, I feel like you want to defend the status quo, which frankly, isn’t very interesting to me.

The TP will never be nerfed because it’s a sink not a source.

Arguing against changes isnt about defending the “status quo” only. For starters, any changes need to be well balanced and change something that is actually a problem. If there’s no real problem, a stance backed by statistics, why should there be any change?

And dont give the cop out argument of “You can make lotsa money on the TP instead of ‘playing the game’” either. What do you think defines how much money you make farming events and resources? The trade post. The very system people have a perceived problem against is what determines how much money they make in pve. Attempting to drive down the profits of those who make money solely from the TP can have a far greater negative impact against those that basically supply those items.

And along those lines, if the supply “grunts” want more money, it’s simple: influence the market you supply by listing at above “normal” prices consistently and stop selling to buy orders. Eventually you’re going to create a wall starting at buy prices that can then be established on the other side that effectively states “these are the new prices of the item.”

Further, profit is not merely the difference of sell price vs buy price. That’s simply the transaction profit. Profit is measured with time as a frame of reference. For example, in the last month, March 15-April 15, I’ve made close to 750-850g. Currently, I have only 70g left. That 70g is currently the entirety of my “profit” this month. Everything else has been consumed in unrecoverable costs (ascended armor & com tag), or losses (nothing good from MF). What would Anet determine as my profit? What happens if I’ve lost more money than I’ve gained in that time frame?

Schizo.1375:

munkiman.3068:

They’ve only shown to be misunderstood, either by my poor explanation of them or poor reading comprehension. My suggestion only limits the function of flippers to flip product and only negatively affects the accidental purchases of items you could immediately resell. Nothing more than that. As for workarounds via another account, well anything a player does to workaround the designed limits of the game are usually bannable offenses.

I’m glad we are resorting to personal attacks now. You have only ever tried to defend your argument when someone points out what is wrong with it. You have never until now claimed that people misinterpreted something. I have gone back through your older posts and have found no such suggestion but perhaps my reading comprehension is off.

Also I’m not sure what the last line is in context too but I don’t think Anet would ban people for shelling out money for a second account.

munkiman.3068:

I can certainly be wrong, but then again the counterpoints can just as well be also.

This is just an attempt at a scorched earth where if you can’t win you attempt to nullify the opponent’s argument without a real counter argument. Your right, despite all the reasons I could come up with to show why it’s not plausible I probably couldn’t definitively prove that Santa isn’t real.

If you felt that was a stab at you personally, i apologize. I just leave any interaction with you at this point here.

TooBz.3065:

Wanze.8410:

munkiman.3068:

Could you imagine? DR on the TP, after 20 minutes of trading your profit gets cut in half? How about RNG, you still pay your gold, but you may or might not get or item. Perhaps a porous bone instead :P

OK, start by telling me your formula of how you measure profit on the tp.

Sale price * .85 – buy price?

edit: FYI, he wasn’t serious. He was just applying the money making restrictions on the rest of the game to the TP.

Except the TP doesn’t know how you acquired the good. Only some may have been gathered, dropped, gifted or crafted while others may have been bought earlier. Your “profit” equation doesn’t take into account pulling and relisting which cuts into actual “profit”.

Want to “fix” the TP, suggest a UI that doesn’t encourage players from one clicking (not quite but you get the idea) sell now/buy now pricing while still providing them information on the current trading range. It’s that player interaction with the TP that allows a few players to act as vendor/facilitator/merchant with any wealth coming from the shear number of players who treat the TP just like a vendor with just an extra click or two.

“No, it’s not the player’s bad habits filling the pockets of those ebil flippers, it’s something they are doing to the market itself. It’s the tricksie, nasty flippers.”

How are we still having this conversation. Listen people, this is probably the most simple issue that can be explained by giving classifications.

Farming, Dungeon Running, Champ bag opening, etc = Gold Creative
Flipping items on the trading post = Gold Destructive

Imagine logging in to find that 1 iron ingot was 15s a piece. Supply on the item was the same and the demand was exactly the same. What caused this to occur? Inflation.

Guild Wars 2’s economy has very few gold sinks and quite a few faucets. They just got rid of two more gold sinks…so they have to balance that by closing a faucet, otherwise the water will spill over into the lanoleum and then you have to grab a mop: it’s a horrible mess.

Going back to my classifications, since the trading post does not actually create gold but is the biggest SINK for gold in the game you cannot solve the imbalance of removing two other sinks by discouraging people from using it. You must, therefore, find a faucet (i.e. champ bags which everyone gets at all times) and reduce the flow from them.

What I find funny about this whole topic is that the champ bags are not being nerfed in RNG. They’re being nerfed in silver directly dropped by the bag. Listen, I didn’t do bag farming too often, but I can say when I open a champ bag I just don’t stand and ovate over the amount of silver I receive. In any case, I think the loot from them is more exciting than the direct silver.

Anyways, feel free to argue with me, I’m done. Just wanted to point out that the reason for this whole topic is completely stupid since it has nothing to do with the reasoning used for limiting silver drops from champ bags. Hasta lasagna!

(If I got any information about champ bags wrong: OOPS! It still doesn’t change my premise which is indubitably true.)

^_^