Guild Wars 2

phys.7689:

There is a reason many people call the game gold wars. Its not just because people are rich, its because the game is designed so that the endgame is designed around wealth.

Why is it that the business mans skill set is so much more valued in the game world than the adventurers? Why is being able to read spreadsheets, and patiently sell and buy items and look for deals/ineffeciencies the best means of progress in the endgame?

One would think people would be telling people to learn to explore, or save the world, or fight an insanely difficult boss to succeed at playing an adventure based game. Why is the answer learn to merchant if you want the flaming sword of power dipped in dragonblood of an ancient, passed down from generation to generation.

Well we have come to the conclusion here. Essentially the end result is, the endgame of gw2 is gold hunting, the field of battle is merchanting. And this is the way people should learn to play if they hope to succeed.
Wealth distribution between play styles is not relevant, because you should just learn to play in whatever way earns the most money.

Well in my opinion thats a bad reward design for a game about saving the world and killing dragons.

Except that most of the players don’t care about the TP or squeezing every penny out of the transactions on it. The average player doesn’t even think about this stuff, which is why they just “sell now” and move on.

The experience is not much different from what I’ve seen in other MMOs, except that the multi-server TP moves items and coin much faster and more efficiently. This is an improvement over the TP/auctions in other games, not a problem.

I get that you don’t like it, but the fact is that the TP works as it was intended to work. It moves items and coin very quickly among those who choose to use it. Because it works as intended, just saying “I don’t like this” over and over is not going to cause change.

If you want more gold from the tp, simply list your items 20% higher than the lowest seller and wait until it sells. If you dont want to risk the 5% listing fee, keep the item in your inventory, until it gains 20% value. Boom! youre a tp baron now because essentially thats all we do.

tolunart.2095:

phys.7689:

There is a reason many people call the game gold wars. Its not just because people are rich, its because the game is designed so that the endgame is designed around wealth.

Why is it that the business mans skill set is so much more valued in the game world than the adventurers? Why is being able to read spreadsheets, and patiently sell and buy items and look for deals/ineffeciencies the best means of progress in the endgame?

One would think people would be telling people to learn to explore, or save the world, or fight an insanely difficult boss to succeed at playing an adventure based game. Why is the answer learn to merchant if you want the flaming sword of power dipped in dragonblood of an ancient, passed down from generation to generation.

Well we have come to the conclusion here. Essentially the end result is, the endgame of gw2 is gold hunting, the field of battle is merchanting. And this is the way people should learn to play if they hope to succeed.
Wealth distribution between play styles is not relevant, because you should just learn to play in whatever way earns the most money.

Well in my opinion thats a bad reward design for a game about saving the world and killing dragons.

Except that most of the players don’t care about the TP or squeezing every penny out of the transactions on it. The average player doesn’t even think about this stuff, which is why they just “sell now” and move on.

The experience is not much different from what I’ve seen in other MMOs, except that the multi-server TP moves items and coin much faster and more efficiently. This is an improvement over the TP/auctions in other games, not a problem.

I get that you don’t like it, but the fact is that the TP works as it was intended to work. It moves items and coin very quickly among those who choose to use it. Because it works as intended, just saying “I don’t like this” over and over is not going to cause change.

Oh well whatever its pointless. TP shall rule forever. Business men shall rule them all.

phys.7689:

There is a reason many people call the game gold wars. Its not just because people are rich, its because the game is designed so that the endgame is designed around wealth.

Why is it that the business mans skill set is so much more valued in the game world than the adventurers? Why is being able to read spreadsheets, and patiently sell and buy items and look for deals/ineffeciencies the best means of progress in the endgame?

One would think people would be telling people to learn to explore, or save the world, or fight an insanely difficult boss to succeed at playing an adventure based game. Why is the answer learn to merchant if you want the flaming sword of power dipped in dragonblood of an ancient, passed down from generation to generation.

Well we have come to the conclusion here. Essentially the end result is, the endgame of gw2 is gold hunting, the field of battle is merchanting. And this is the way people should learn to play if they hope to succeed.
Wealth distribution between play styles is not relevant, because you should just learn to play in whatever way earns the most money.

Well in my opinion thats a bad reward design for a game about saving the world and killing dragons.

That was a really great post phys.

phys.7689:

looking at the markets when you are selling things, and waiting for the right time. Counting the pennies, and seeing what makes what and whats actually truely cheaper.

You realize this is the basics of being a merchant or running a business?

Im fine with people running a business amassing massive gold. But you must remember this is an adventure game. It needs to have rewards and goals that the adventurer can achieve and excel at. Right now, most of what would normally be their goals, you would be a fool to go on an adventure to obtain.

There is a reason many people call the game gold wars. Its not just because people are rich, its because the game is designed so that the endgame is designed around wealth.

Why is it that the business mans skill set is so much more valued in the game world than the adventurers? Why is being able to read spreadsheets, and patiently sell and buy items and look for deals/ineffeciencies the best means of progress in the endgame?

One would think people would be telling people to learn to explore, or save the world, or fight an insanely difficult boss to succeed at playing an adventure based game. Why is the answer learn to merchant if you want the flaming sword of power dipped in dragonblood of an ancient, passed down from generation to generation.

Well we have come to the conclusion here. Essentially the end result is, the endgame of gw2 is gold hunting, the field of battle is merchanting. And this is the way people should learn to play if they hope to succeed.
Wealth distribution between play styles is not relevant, because you should just learn to play in whatever way earns the most money.

Well in my opinion thats a bad reward design for a game about saving the world and killing dragons.

How do you need gold to go out and do adventures? All the stuff you cant effort doesnt exclude you from endgame content.
All ascended and legendary gear is heavily gated by account bound mats that are ONLY obtainable by adventuring, NOT the tp.

You want more gold from the tp? Post all your loot at higher prices and wait until it sells, thats all there is to it. There is literally no difference in me getting an item for 1s on buy order and posting it at 3s and you getting that item via loot drop and posting it at 3s instead of 1s.
No spreadsheets involved.
Do you know why most people dont do it? Because they want gold now and dont care, if somebody else gets rich on it in 2 weeks or 2 months.

I don’t think they want more gold from the tp. I am assuming they want better rewards from playing the core of the game so they don’t have to play the tp for said rewards. If they wanted to focus on the tp, they’d be more interested in a market simulation game not a mmorpg.

Wanze.8410:

phys.7689:

looking at the markets when you are selling things, and waiting for the right time. Counting the pennies, and seeing what makes what and whats actually truely cheaper.

You realize this is the basics of being a merchant or running a business?

Im fine with people running a business amassing massive gold. But you must remember this is an adventure game. It needs to have rewards and goals that the adventurer can achieve and excel at. Right now, most of what would normally be their goals, you would be a fool to go on an adventure to obtain.

There is a reason many people call the game gold wars. Its not just because people are rich, its because the game is designed so that the endgame is designed around wealth.

Why is it that the business mans skill set is so much more valued in the game world than the adventurers? Why is being able to read spreadsheets, and patiently sell and buy items and look for deals/ineffeciencies the best means of progress in the endgame?

One would think people would be telling people to learn to explore, or save the world, or fight an insanely difficult boss to succeed at playing an adventure based game. Why is the answer learn to merchant if you want the flaming sword of power dipped in dragonblood of an ancient, passed down from generation to generation.

Well we have come to the conclusion here. Essentially the end result is, the endgame of gw2 is gold hunting, the field of battle is merchanting. And this is the way people should learn to play if they hope to succeed.
Wealth distribution between play styles is not relevant, because you should just learn to play in whatever way earns the most money.

Well in my opinion thats a bad reward design for a game about saving the world and killing dragons.

How do you need gold to go out and do adventures? All the stuff you cant effort doesnt exclude you from endgame content.
All ascended and legendary gear is heavily gated by account bound mats that are ONLY obtainable by adventuring, NOT the tp.

You want more gold from the tp? Post all your loot at higher prices and wait until it sells, thats all there is to it. There is literally no difference in me getting an item for 1s on buy order and posting it at 3s and you getting that item via loot drop and posting it at 3s instead of 1s.
No spreadsheets involved.
Do you know why most people dont do it? Because they want gold now and dont care, if somebody else gets rich on it in 2 weeks or 2 months.

You don’t need gold for adventures, you just won’t get much of anything of value from adventures.
People sell on the tp without caring because the gane gives them no choice. You get tons of crap you don’t want and limited inventory. You have to get rid of stuff.
Its very rare for you to purposefully get anything through adventuring.
Which means even if they are bad it, know nothing, or have no desire to do it. They have to. And you profit off of this model that forces them to market.

The rewards are not designed with gameplay in mind. They are designed based on the tp. See halloween items year two. No one could get any of those skins through gsmeplay without the tp

Essence Snow.3194:

I don’t think they want more gold from the tp. I am assuming they want better rewards from playing the core of the game so they don’t have to play the tp for said rewards. If they wanted to focus on the tp, they’d be more interested in a market simulation game not a mmorpg.

If you list your loot for 20% more gold, you get 20% more rewards from whatever gametype dropped that loot for you. No need to focus on playing the tp.
Just sell your loot at a higher price, you dont need a PhD for that, do you?
And whats wrong with a bit of market simulation, if its incorporated into the game?
This is not an 8 bit jump and run either but people spent 100+ hours in SAB.

It’s just a classic case of “play the game the way I want you to play it.” The devs designed a bunch of different activities that don’t require a Legendary weapon, or ascended gear, or expensive weapon skins to enjoy. But if loot is all you’re interested in, then this is probably the wrong game to play.

phys.7689:

Wanze.8410:

phys.7689:

looking at the markets when you are selling things, and waiting for the right time. Counting the pennies, and seeing what makes what and whats actually truely cheaper.

You realize this is the basics of being a merchant or running a business?

Im fine with people running a business amassing massive gold. But you must remember this is an adventure game. It needs to have rewards and goals that the adventurer can achieve and excel at. Right now, most of what would normally be their goals, you would be a fool to go on an adventure to obtain.

There is a reason many people call the game gold wars. Its not just because people are rich, its because the game is designed so that the endgame is designed around wealth.

Why is it that the business mans skill set is so much more valued in the game world than the adventurers? Why is being able to read spreadsheets, and patiently sell and buy items and look for deals/ineffeciencies the best means of progress in the endgame?

One would think people would be telling people to learn to explore, or save the world, or fight an insanely difficult boss to succeed at playing an adventure based game. Why is the answer learn to merchant if you want the flaming sword of power dipped in dragonblood of an ancient, passed down from generation to generation.

Well we have come to the conclusion here. Essentially the end result is, the endgame of gw2 is gold hunting, the field of battle is merchanting. And this is the way people should learn to play if they hope to succeed.
Wealth distribution between play styles is not relevant, because you should just learn to play in whatever way earns the most money.

Well in my opinion thats a bad reward design for a game about saving the world and killing dragons.

How do you need gold to go out and do adventures? All the stuff you cant effort doesnt exclude you from endgame content.
All ascended and legendary gear is heavily gated by account bound mats that are ONLY obtainable by adventuring, NOT the tp.

You want more gold from the tp? Post all your loot at higher prices and wait until it sells, thats all there is to it. There is literally no difference in me getting an item for 1s on buy order and posting it at 3s and you getting that item via loot drop and posting it at 3s instead of 1s.
No spreadsheets involved.
Do you know why most people dont do it? Because they want gold now and dont care, if somebody else gets rich on it in 2 weeks or 2 months.

You don’t need gold for adventures, you just won’t get much of anything of value from adventures.
People sell on the tp without caring because the gane gives them no choice. You get tons of crap you don’t want and limited inventory. You have to get rid of stuff.
Its very rare for you to purposefully get anything through adventuring.
Which means even if they are bad it, know nothing, or have no desire to do it. They have to. And you profit off of this model that forces them to market.

The rewards are not designed with gameplay in mind. They are designed based on the tp. See halloween items year two. No one could get any of those skins through gsmeplay without the tp

So how come that speculators buy up these “crap items”, store them and sell them for profit? They just choose to use their inventory slots for the crap items or pay 5% listing fee to store it on the tp until it sells. And that the game gives no choice in determining thevalue you want for your loot is simply not true. You can post your loot at any value as long as you can afford the listing fee.

Nobody forces people to play the tp, except themselves because they want expensive stuff that they basically dont need to play any content.

For 2013 Halloween weapons you could have just farmed keys with the human commoner storyline, get your ticket scraps from the chests and get a halloween weapon. No TP involved.

If you resorted to discussing reward structures, fair enough. Please do so in another topic because NO REWARDS ARE CREATED on the TP.

phys.7689:

Well in my opinion thats a bad reward design for a game about saving the world and killing dragons.

QFT. Give this man a medal.

To Wanze and other TP players that keep defending this

The problem is not that TP playing exists and/or is highly profitable, nobody really wants to take that away from you. The problem is that it is the single most profitable way by a large margin of acquiring loot in a game wherein said loot is an important part.

Tell me, do any of the trailers or marketing materials feature “market simulation” or anything along the lines as a prominent feature of this game? We all know that the main idea this genre is built around is to fight monsters (or other players) and gain stuff the more you do it. The rest was just tacked on over the years. So if some (and by some, this game really means – the most interesting/fun) rewards are obtainable only by “playing the tp” because there is no comparable way to get that kind of money elsewhere in the game… something is wrong with the way this game is presented, at the very least.

And if you argue that i.e. dungeon armor is also unique to one playstyle, don’t forget you can get carried in a dungeon by friends and even getting better at it in and of itself is by far easier than having the skill to play the tp for hundreds of g’s and if you’re a beginner with a small amount of gold it’s going to take a looong time and you’re also likely to lose money at the start – important point to note – no other activity in the game is designed in a way that would cause you to lose anything, not so with TP trading, you can very much lose all you have.

The entire reward structure revolves around the tp. It’s why playing content is not very rewarding, yet playing the tp is very rewarding (if you consider coin rewarding).

Borghal.1635:

important point to note – no other activity in the game is designed in a way that would cause you to lose anything, not so with TP trading, you can very much lose all you have.

Agreed, it is perhaps the only example of significant risk in the entire game.

Essence Snow.3194:

The entire reward structure revolves around the tp. It’s why playing content is not very rewarding, yet playing the tp is very rewarding (if you consider coin rewarding).

That is absurd, isn’t it though. A large part of the playerbase in games is attracted by achieving stuff and/or getting good loot. You might as well tell these players – forget the game, go play with Forex, it will be the same.

Essence Snow.3194:

The entire reward structure revolves around the tp. It’s why playing content is not very rewarding, yet playing the tp is very rewarding (if you consider coin rewarding).

I don’t. Exploring the map, soloing a champion, finishing your personal story… these things are rewarding. Coin is just a way to get more stuff.

I would argue that killing something and getting a cool item is far more fun (rewarding) than killing something getting coin, investing said coin, then buying a cool item, but ofc fun is subjective so what do I know.

tolunart.2095:

Essence Snow.3194:

The entire reward structure revolves around the tp. It’s why playing content is not very rewarding, yet playing the tp is very rewarding (if you consider coin rewarding).

I don’t. Exploring the map, soloing a champion, finishing your personal story… these things are rewarding. Coin is just a way to get more stuff.

All of the rewards gain via playing content have been set up so they fit in the global tp economy. It is why that champ you kill has a horrible chance at giving you anything other than a minimal reward. Coin is the way they supplement poor rewards, but that in itself takes the fun or rewarding feeling out of the game for a lot of players. See above*

Of course there’s going to be items only available through the trade post, they’re called luxury items. You know, skins like Scarlet’s Grasp, BL weapon skins, etc. Speaking of which, those are also all luxury items, which also includes precursors and legendaries. And JS has already stated that luxury items should have no place in this discussion. Thread exit is → way.

Besides, the trade post is only profitable because people like you refuse to exercise a modicum of effort. Plus, I’m pretty confident that I’ve made money that comes close to, or quite possibly exceeds wanze’s monthly average just by pricing what I’m selling after dropping it. It’s like finding a scratch-off ticket that’s a $20000 winner, and you selling it to someone for the $10 ‘sticker’ price because you didnt want to wait through the claim process. The act of a bumbling idiot. So if you dont want to learn the simplest tip to making the most out of what you drop, then dont cry about other “problems” on the trade post.

Borghal.1635:

phys.7689:

Well in my opinion thats a bad reward design for a game about saving the world and killing dragons.

QFT. Give this man a medal.

To Wanze and other TP players that keep defending this

The problem is not that TP playing exists and/or is highly profitable, nobody really wants to take that away from you. The problem is that it is the single most profitable way by a large margin of acquiring loot in a game wherein said loot is an important part.

Until now, nobody could even present a formula that calculates profit gained by playing the tp that is in any way applicable, yet people like you claim the profits are too high without any proof.

My thesis still stands: The average profit gained by playing the tp is at least -15% (yes, a loss) due to the fees and taxes. It propably is even higher because listing fees that didnt result in a sale and got pulled off the tp should be added to the losses.
You are welcome to prove me wrong.

Aidan Savage.2078:

And JS has already stated that luxury items should have no place in this discussion. Thread exit is -> way.

Why would that matter? Luxury items are there to be bought either by exerting yourself ingame, OR giving ANet $$$ via gems.

Aidan Savage.2078:

Besides, the trade post is only profitable because people like you refuse to exercise a modicum of effort. Plus, I’m pretty confident that I’ve made money that comes close to, or quite possibly exceeds wanze’s monthly

I’m confused how this is supposed to be a solution – pricing items above highest buy order in and of itself will, at best, double or triple your profits. That is nothing to write home about in most cases and certainly not comparable to high-volume flipping in terms of payout/effort. I make more gold per dungeon run in the form of bonus gold than loot sold even if said loot was sold at double value.

Not to mention you inevitably miss the right prices and incur losses – either you lose gold on re-listing or you don’t notice that some stuff will just never sell because its a huge time waster to check one item after another if you list 100+ a day.

Flipping doesnt make the most money off the trade post. If you think that, then you really dont have an accurate idea of the money making methods that rely purely on the trade post. Speculation (take a look at Runes of Strength as a good example) and craft “flipping” make more money. Of these methods, craft flipping can make the most money on average because you’re selling to active demands. Speculation requires you to sell to future demands, which can either not happen as quickly as you thought (unid dyes) resulting in a loss, or occur in such force you make 200-600% profit, correction, 1500% profit, didnt realize the runes peaked at 15g a few days ago.

God kitten it, I knew I should have bought a couple dozen of the runes a few days ago, wouldnt have mattered it was at 2g a piece, I’d have still made an kitten of money.

Borghal.1635:

Aidan Savage.2078:

And JS has already stated that luxury items should have no place in this discussion. Thread exit is -> way.

Why would that matter? Luxury items are there to be bought either by exerting yourself ingame, OR giving ANet $$$ via gems.

Aidan Savage.2078:

Besides, the trade post is only profitable because people like you refuse to exercise a modicum of effort. Plus, I’m pretty confident that I’ve made money that comes close to, or quite possibly exceeds wanze’s monthly

I’m confused how this is supposed to be a solution – pricing items above highest buy order in and of itself will, at best, double or triple your profits. That is nothing to write home about in most cases and certainly not comparable to high-volume flipping in terms of payout/effort. I make more gold per dungeon run in the form of bonus gold than loot sold even if said loot was sold at double value.

Not to mention you inevitably miss the right prices and incur losses – either you lose gold on re-listing or you don’t notice that some stuff will just never sell because its a huge time waster to check one item after another if you list 100+ a day.

I dont make much profits by high volume flipping, most of my profits come from salvaging and crafting. Are those 2 activities also considered non-core gameplay?
And as tp player, I also inevitably miss the right prices and incur losses by relisting or value just sitting on the tp.
I posted a screenshot earlier that over 80% of my current 550+ listings on the tp are older than 3 weeks. Considering that i only have 200-300g on hand that means most of my account value (or rewards earned) is not available to spend for me.

Everybody can make as much profit as me on the the tp at the same pace by simply not filling my buy order but listing at the price I would, after you would have sold it to me. I started this game like everybody else with 0 copper in my wallet and never bought gold with gems. Maybe the reason why i have so much account wealth is because I am just more patient with my sales and dont consume stuff at a rate the average player with my /age does.

EDIT: I feel the discussion is somewhat stagnant. I suppose all of these walls of words come down to this: Market speculation should not be among the most profitable activities in a game that features an economy and gold as an important means to an end, but its gameplay focus is nowhere near market speculation. You either agree or you don’t, there’s probably nothing either side can do if the point itself does not convince you.

Wanze.8410:

Until now, nobody could even present a formula that calculates profit gained by playing the tp that is in any way applicable, yet people like you claim the profits are too high without any proof.

My thesis still stands: The average profit gained by playing the tp is at least -15% (yes, a loss) due to the fees and taxes. It propably is even higher because listing fees that didnt result in a sale and got pulled off the tp should be added to the losses.
You are welcome to prove me wrong.

The proof to that? If it wasn’t profitable, people wouldn’t keep doing it.

I assume you’re saying that just to poke, surely you must be aware nobody is going to present you a formula seeing how speculation is very skill-dependent and circumstantial.

And I was never interested in speculation so I really have no idea of the potential. But, bear with me – I don’t need to do it to know this – this being market manipulation, in theory it scales based on how much you can invest. No other form of making profit in this game has this benefit. Everything else is more or less static in value, at least compared to the scaling potential that is investments.

I admit, I am very biased. I consider the possibility of playing the tp not an opportunity to get rich (I’d play with actual market simulations and such if I wanted that), but a necessary evil that we bear to enable players to trade fairly. In all of 300 hours of experiencing all of the game’s content, I gained maybe 100g. How much more could I have gained if I farmed dungeon runs? How much more would I gain if I played the TP in an optimal way?

Look at it as a function of growth rate:
Standard game farming is of O(n) time complexity – linear. Spend n more time, get n more gold.
Market playing is O(n^c) where c fluctuates depending on your skill. If you profit it’s 1 or greater. Thus with n more time you gain n^c more gold, naturally leading to bigger and bigger sums as long as you can keep the c above 1.

I want to earn rewards in this game by playing the game, not one of its metagames.

You guys will never get it because y’all are merchants.

People can t make decent progress post 80 by doing core game activities.

These items are not luxuries they are the goals you play for after hitting 80.

You can’t make any progress towards a legendary climbing the highest mountain, finding the hidden pirate cove. You make minimal gains killing the toughest monsters.

The game has a whole wide world and nothing to gain for most of it. Reward is supposed to lead the player through the world and reinforce the core gameplay.

Right now they want to use gold as the medium, fine. But that means you either play the game in the most profitable way, or try to buy things at prices designed for the economy that looks at things in a business perspective. ie buy 10000 candy corn to win at halloween
Spend 10 gold a day for 28 days to get best in slot.

Etc.

Do you really think these things are designed with the most common earners in mind?

phys.7689:

People can t make decent progress post 80 by doing core game activities.

That’s a huge load of crap. The endgame content is balanced around gear that you get from doing open world event, purchase rather cheaply or craft relatively easily with T5 mats; Rares. The game content IS designed around the most common players in mind because everyone playing through the game should be able to afford or craft rare gear by level 80.

Obtena.7952:

phys.7689:

People can t make decent progress post 80 by doing core game activities.

That’s a huge load of crap. The endgame content is balanced around gear that you get from doing content or you purchase rather cheaply; Rares. The game content IS designed around the most common players in mind because everyone playing through the game should be able to afford or craft rare gear by level 80.

It’s balanced around items being injected into a global economy. Thus they can’t significantly reward players or else flood the economy. To balance the economy they have to skimp on individual rewards.

Rare is 3rd tier btw. It’s either salvaged for ectos, sold for coin, forged in hopes of exotic, or used as a place holder till better tier items can be obtained. For end game it is not an objective, only a means.

Imo endgame content in this game is acquiring the skins you fancy, not equipmet which can be bought very cheaply in contrast… (as far as PvE is considered anyway, in PvP there is no such thing as endgame :-))

Essence Snow.3194:

Obtena.7952:

phys.7689:

People can t make decent progress post 80 by doing core game activities.

That’s a huge load of crap. The endgame content is balanced around gear that you get from doing content or you purchase rather cheaply; Rares. The game content IS designed around the most common players in mind because everyone playing through the game should be able to afford or craft rare gear by level 80.

It’s balanced around items being injected into a global economy. Thus they can’t significantly reward players or else flood the economy. To balance the economy they have to skimp on individual rewards.

Wrong … Rares certainly DO reward players. Almost every player getting a rare has a use for it, even if you don’t consider it significant.

Essence Snow.3194:

Rare is 3rd tier btw. It’s either salvaged for ectos, sold for coin, forged in hopes of exotic, or used as a place holder till better tier items can be obtained. For end game it is not an objective, only a means.

Sure, but that doesn’t take away from the fact that the game content endgame is indeed balanced around rare gear. Therefore, people most certainly can progress post 80 with rare gear. In fact, I would think that MOST people on their first character did exactly that.

How is end game balanced around rare gear? Please explain…

Endgame content can be done successfully in rare gear. Good players that know what they are doing could use masterwork. Some of the best can solo some content. They could probably do it naked with the correct team.

Only in the most restrictive content (Fractals) is it necessary to have Ascended gear, only because it’s gear gated, not because it’s so difficult that the boost you get from Ascended is necessary to complete it.

Obtena.7952:

Sure, but that doesn’t take away from the fact that the game content endgame is indeed balanced around rare gear.

What do you mean by that?
At level 80 rares have only these uses afaik:
1) skins
2) break up for mats
3) mystic toilet
4) sell for ~30 silvers a piece

If I understand it correctly, you’re saying that rares are a form of currency at 80?

Obtena.7952:

Endgame content can be done successfully in rare gear. Good players that know what they are doing could use masterwork. Some of the best can solo some content.

That doesn’t meant it’s balanced around it, though. It’s just a testament of skill, unless exotic gear would then be OP, which it clearly isn’t if you’ve ever pugged…

Oh well, this thread isnt going to get anywhere productive, and hopefully it’ll be closed soon.

There is a distribution of player skill that affects success, that’s certain but that has little bearing on how the game is balanced. I have no doubt that the claim that average people can’t progress at at decent pace because the endgame is balanced around gear they can’t obtain through regular play is just … stupid. You only need to look around and observe what people are doing to know that’s a steaming load.

Obtena.7952:

phys.7689:

People can t make decent progress post 80 by doing core game activities.

That’s a huge load of crap. The endgame content is balanced around gear that you get from doing open world event, purchase rather cheaply or craft relatively easily with T5 mats; Rares. The game content IS designed around the most common players in mind because everyone playing through the game should be able to afford or craft rare gear by level 80.

your goal and progressions once you hit 80 is not rare gear, you have had rare gear since like level 45. your goal once you hit 80 is, customizing your appearance, rare skins, and best in slot gear. perhaps another goal might be more varied equipment builds, which requires extra inventory.

Understand the goal of playing and progression once you hit 80 is not to be the weak guy with weak stats and random appearance from items you picked up. They even said when the game released they expected people to be pursuing legendaries, best in slot (exotic at the time) and cosmetics once they hit max level.

Playing the core game is the worst way to get any of those things. The endgame is designed for wealthy traders, people have already admitted that here, they only difference is they say that the way it should be, and people should learn how to be business men if they want to “win” at endgame progression.

phys.7689:

Obtena.7952:

phys.7689:

People can t make decent progress post 80 by doing core game activities.

That’s a huge load of crap. The endgame content is balanced around gear that you get from doing open world event, purchase rather cheaply or craft relatively easily with T5 mats; Rares. The game content IS designed around the most common players in mind because everyone playing through the game should be able to afford or craft rare gear by level 80.

your goal and progressions once you hit 80 is not rare gear, you have had rare gear since like level 45.

Your goal and the ability to progress at a decent pace to that goal are NOT the same thing.

Obtena.7952:

the endgame is balanced around gear they can’t obtain through regular play is just … stupid.

I think you’re steering the thread in a direction it need not take. (though Aidan is probably right, we’re already far from the OT and nothing new is probably going to crop up here)

The whole argument is one of cosmetics, not function ;-) You can get geared in full exotics of your choice for… hmm, 50some gold? Getting stats up to par is no problem. We’re arguing about how kitten expensive a lot of the visual stuff is compared to the rate at which you can earn gold by actually playing the game – PvE/PvP.

I didn’t steer it … someone has made the point that average players can’t make decent progression endgame doing core game activities in a thread related to increasing penalties for people that make money on the TP. You don’t see the connection attempting to be made here? It’s not hard to see that the next step is to say rich people are screwing the average person’s ability to progress because the gear rich people manipulate on the TP to make money (the same gear average people need to progress at a decent pace) is too expensive for the average guy to afford.

Therefore … nerf rich TP people that make money on the TP, that will make needed gear for decent progression affordable and all the sudden, the current miserable struggling average people are smiley happy people that can progress and play the game.

It’s nonsense.

Obtena.7952:

I didn’t steer it … someone has made the point that average players can’t make decent progression endgame doing core game activities in a thread related to increasing penalties for people that make money on the TP. You don’t see the connection attempting to be made here? It’s not hard to see that the next step is to say rich people are screwing the average person’s ability to progress because the gear rich people manipulate on the TP to make money (the same gear average people need to progress at a decent pace) is too expensive for the average guy to afford.

Therefore … nerf rich TP people that make money on the TP, that will make needed gear for decent progression affordable and all the sudden, the current miserable struggling average people are smiley happy people that can progress and play the game.

It’s nonsense.

Ill make it clear to you again.
you hit level 80
what are your goals?
its not to get exotics, you already have those, or can get them cheap.
its not get exp you are max level.
you know what eric flanum said it was on release? he said they made this cool system called legendaries, that required you to show mastery in everything in the game. He said people would start working towards their legendary.

You know what mike o brien said people would be doing in his game rather than trying to get best in slot? he said they would be aiming for cosmetics.

Cosmetics, legendaries, ascended, these are the endgame goals of gw2. THIS is what you are progressing towards once you hit level 80. Its not about wearing rare gear so you can get another level of exp. they designed the progression at endgame to be cosmetic.

And the best way to do that is not by saving Orr, or defeating centaurs, fighting dragons, finding hidden treasures, organizing guilds, defeating other players or even murdering hoards of monsters, its by playing the TP, which makes every thing else suboptimal play for achieving the goals they expect players to have after 80.

The problem is that the TP is the best way to play the endgame. The game itself is unrewarding, and doesnt incentivize the type of play they say they want people to have. They nerfed event rewards, which is actually the activity they said they expect and want players to do. What type of incentive is that?

Borghal.1635:

Obtena.7952:

the endgame is balanced around gear they can’t obtain through regular play is just … stupid.

I think you’re steering the thread in a direction it need not take. (though Aidan is probably right, we’re already far from the OT and nothing new is probably going to crop up here)

The whole argument is one of cosmetics, not function ;-) You can get geared in full exotics of your choice for… hmm, 50some gold? Getting stats up to par is no problem. We’re arguing about how kitten expensive a lot of the visual stuff is compared to the rate at which you can earn gold by actually playing the game – PvE/PvP.

And John Smith already deemed your argument invalid in his first post in this topic.

John Smith.4610:

It’s possible I’ve missed it and I apologize if that’s true, but I haven’t seen any evidence or even a correct hypothesis that a group of the rich can negatively effect your gameplay experience. I think a clear set of ideas would help me understand and respond to the issue.

P.S. Don’t say luxury goods or I will refer you to the first rule of the tautology club.

Borghal.1635:

Wanze.8410:

Until now, nobody could even present a formula that calculates profit gained by playing the tp that is in any way applicable, yet people like you claim the profits are too high without any proof.

My thesis still stands: The average profit gained by playing the tp is at least -15% (yes, a loss) due to the fees and taxes. It propably is even higher because listing fees that didnt result in a sale and got pulled off the tp should be added to the losses.
You are welcome to prove me wrong.

The proof to that? If it wasn’t profitable, people wouldn’t keep doing it.

I assume you’re saying that just to poke, surely you must be aware nobody is going to present you a formula seeing how speculation is very skill-dependent and circumstantial.

Its profitable for some because others forfeit a larger amount of their profits for instant gratification. My proof is that every time you list something you pay 5% listing fee and everytime you sell something you pay 10% tax. I already explained this before:

I put in a buy order for item X for 1s and player A sells it to me. He gains 0.85s and i lose 1s. Then i list the item for 2 silver and player A buys it because he needs it again at a later stage. I gain 1.7s and he loses 2s. Total loss between the 2 of us is 3 silver ( 2 for him, 1 for me) and total gain is 2.55s (1.7s for me, 0.85s for him). Thats an overall loss of 15% (57.5% loss to him, 70% profit to me).
Do you think thats unfair? If player A listed it for 2s in the first place, he would have had 100% more profit, if he decides he needs the item for himself at 2s, he would have cut his losses by 57.5%. Either way, he would have made as much profit as me. The only difference is that I was willing to store the item between buy and sell, either sacrificing personal storage or paying upfront for storage on the tp.

Anet will never regulate profits on the TP because they cant, its completely player driven, just like the gem/gold exchange.

You cant’ say it is “purely” cosmetic. I spend 700 gold just for a set of ascended armor and around 7 weapon.

Eventhough the difference is not that big. But it is still like 15% damage gap and 5% more damage taken between exotic.

phys.7689:

The problem is that the TP is the best way to play the endgame.

1. That’s a generalization and it’s also balanced by the risks associated with it. Therefore, it’s NOT the best way to play for everyone because they would fail terribly. It’s not even limited to endgame …
2. Penalizing rich players who profit from the TP doesn’t fix that even if it was shown to be a problem (which I’m still waiting for someone to do)

laokoko.7403:

You cant’ say it is “purely” cosmetic. I spend 700 gold just for a set of ascended armor and around 7 weapon.

Eventhough the difference is not that big. But it is still like 15% damage gap and 5% more damage taken between exotic.

But even “rich” tp players dont craft ascended gear at will. Even if we agree that the gold costs of the materials involved are enormous and I could afford them more easily.
For my first set of ascended armor i didnt buy any bolts of damask to speed up my process, i crafted one per day like everybody else and farmed the mats mostly on my own. Why? because I still was somehow timegated by my pace of aquiring dragonite ingots, Empyrial shards and bloodstone dust.
You need 2000 each, iirc, to craft a full set and you dont get those by playing the tp all day, it actually takes some serious adventure time to farm those. Time that i cant spend on the tp making gold. Then there is another timegate of 5 laurels per ascended gear recipe. So i can effectively only craft 8 ascended items per month, if i do all dailies and the monthly.
I know plenty of people that dont play the tp for profit like i do and a further in their ascended gear profession than me because they obtain account bound rewards at a faster pace than me.

ya but basically other poor people need to farm much more since they still need 700 gold.

I think I’m just responding to the part about luxury item. Obviously ascended gear isn’t just a luxury item and it is expensive.

Wanze.8410:

And John Smith already deemed your argument invalid in his first post in this topic.

I think I may have hijacked the topic a bit -imo it certainly should be renamed after all these pages – I don’t mean to argue that traders influence the market in a bad way nor that they should be stopped. I agree there’s too much movement for a small-ish group to influence it. Nor do I believe TP trading should be stop. For that matter, it cannot be stopped, as you pointed out. It’s just a feature of the market.

I was merely agreeing with phys and trying to make the case that players ought to have more than one “most efficient” opportunity and that if the “best” one – as seems to be the opinion of a lot of people – is one that is outside of the core gameplay, it is not a good thing and basically discourages players to… actually play the game if they want to save up money for that darn precursor and rather try their hand at trading instead.

Borghal.1635:

Wanze.8410:

And John Smith already deemed your argument invalid in his first post in this topic.

I think I may have hijacked the topic a bit -imo it certainly should be renamed after all these pages – I don’t mean to argue that traders influence the market in a bad way nor that they should be stopped. I agree there’s too much movement for a small-ish group to influence it. Nor do I believe TP trading should be stop. For that matter, it cannot be stopped, as you pointed out. It’s just a feature of the market.

I was merely agreeing with phys and trying to make the case that players ought to have more than one “most efficient” opportunity and that if the “best” one – as seems to be the opinion of a lot of people – is one that is outside of the core gameplay, it is not a good thing and basically discourages players to… actually play the game if they want to save up money for that darn precursor and rather try their hand at trading instead.

And there are more than one way to reach your goals. Basically the profits to be gained on the tp are blown way out of proportion by some people here. Basically the best way to obtain gold is to buy it with gems. If I put my account wealth into proportion of hours played, i made about 1$ per hour. Your arguement might be valid, i this game was pay to play but as long as it is financed by micro transactions and you pay for free after the purchase fee, your argument is simply invalid.

Borghal.1635:

I was merely agreeing with phys and trying to make the case that players ought to have more than one “most efficient” opportunity …

1. More than one efficient opportunity … yes, I agree and I was sincerely hoping we would have seen precursor crafting by now.

Borghal.1635:

… and that if the “best” one – as seems to be the opinion of a lot of people – is one that is outside of the core gameplay, it is not a good thing and basically discourages players to… actually play the game if they want to save up money for that darn precursor and rather try their hand at trading instead.

and this is the problem.

1. The opinion of alot of people != there is a problem. They might not like it, it might be the majority of the people. If it works as it’s intended, you have a really hard slog trying to convince Anet it’s not only bad, but they need to change it to suit the way disgruntled players want it.
2. Core gameplay isn’t defined by players. TP is as much core gameplay as any other content in the game. That’s evident by the way that gear is obtained. Is it good, bad, right wrong? Doesn’t matter, it’s the way it’s implemented. If anything, the TP encourages players to save money for stuff they want. They get something you can’t get from raiding for gear; a target.

The impression I get is that most people that complain are incapable of equating their time in game to gold making potential and comparing that to time in game to looting items they want or the mats they need to make the item. Since they haven’t done this, they get a false sense of getting screwed by sellers because they compare a known price for an item/mats against the unknown time spent to get it from looting. Essential, convince themselves they will ‘win’ from gambling against the odds over earning and spending the gold for what they want. The irony is that earning the gold allows people to do whatever content they want and have fun doing it; getting items as loot in a specific raid rarely results in the same game satisfaction.

Wanze.8410:

Basically the profits to be gained on the tp are blown way out of proportion by some people here.

If that is the case, I concede. I just – naively perhaps – wish most income paths in the game would be more or less equal.

Obtena.7952:

2. Core gameplay isn’t defined by players. TP is as much core gameplay as any other content in the game. That’s evident by the way that gear is obtained. Is it good, bad, right wrong? Doesn’t matter, it’s the way it’s implemented. If anything, the TP encourages players to save money for stuff they want. They get something you can’t get from raiding for gear; a target.

I disagree on that. Simple as that. I would expect trading to be core in, say EVE, based on its marketing and reputation, but not GW2.

Borghal.1635:

Wanze.8410:

Basically the profits to be gained on the tp are blown way out of proportion by some people here.

If that is the case, I concede. I just – naively perhaps – wish most income paths in the game would be more or less equal.

Obtena.7952:

2. Core gameplay isn’t defined by players. TP is as much core gameplay as any other content in the game. That’s evident by the way that gear is obtained. Is it good, bad, right wrong? Doesn’t matter, it’s the way it’s implemented. If anything, the TP encourages players to save money for stuff they want. They get something you can’t get from raiding for gear; a target.

I disagree on that. Simple as that. I would expect trading to be core in, say EVE, based on its marketing and reputation, but not GW2.

1. There are some mayor differences between rewards from regular gameplay and probable profits on the tp. Rewards for any kind of gameplay outside the tp is related to specific “win” conditions (killing a mob, completing an event or dungeon, etc.). Rewards for that are created out of thin air and Anet actually has a chance to balance those rewards by adjusting “win” conditions and loot tables. Thats not the case for the TP because they cant tell players at what value of loot they sell should be (other than vendor value, which in most cases can be disregarded). The TP also doesnt create rewards its simply an imbalance of profits and losses that some people gain gold and some lose gold.
2. The Trading post is core gameplay because everyone is using it to his own advantage. Its a great tool for players to make room in their bags on the fly by just listing or selling their loot directly from anywhere in the world. There is no way you can argue that even those players that sell all their loot to the highest bidder see the TP as a mayor convenience.