Guild Wars 2

laokoko.7403:

all you said is you server hop. and you buy out an item which is limited supply. If people want to buy items cheap they can just place a cheaper bid.

If that’s the case. You can do it even if Rift use the GW2 system.

Place a cheaper bid for what?

There are 10 pieces of oak wood for sale at a minimum bid/buy price of 10s each. I buy all 10 and relist them for 25s each.

There are 10 pieces of oak wood for sale at a minimum bid/buy price of 25s each. How do you place a lower bid when this is the minimum you can pay for them?

You have absolutely no comprehension of what I tried to explain to you. You can’t bid on items that are not offered for sale. In GW2 you can place an order saying “I will pay 6s each for 10 pieces of oak wood” if you don’t want to pay 10s each. You can’t do that in Rift.

Like I noted before some believe there is a problem some do not. Either way improving on something is always better than not. Stifling of ideas, suggestions, and or complaints does not help anything improve. It actually hinders progression and improvement.

Where would things be if we had never striven to improve?

Your complaints are not based in reality, it is a result of being jealous of some hypothetical TP Baron who bathes in the gold stolen from innocent players and picks his teeth with shards of broken precursors just because he can.

Because there actually is no problem, there is no solution to be offered. If you keep pretending that there is, I will keep setting you straight.

Wanze.8410:

If you want to discuss reward structures that fair enough but you have to realize that profits on the tp are not rewards, its a completely different game mechanic and player regulated. Merchants make profits because they offer convenience to players. If your aim is to regulate profits you can only do so by regulating convenience along the way.
This will result in a worse game experience for most people because the elimination of the merchant class wont offer regular players a faster way to desired rewards.
Reworking reward tracks towards those rewards is a good way to go about that but it has absolutely nothing to do with potential profits on the TP.

Profit on the TP is rewards, it is built in to the rewards system to its backbone. They convert the value of items into money based on what the TP says.

perfect example, does ascended take 300 silk, per day because 300 silk per day is the good gameplay earning point? no it takes 300 silk per day because of economic design, the idea is that players will turn their other rewards from play into gold, and then turn the gold into silk.

The game has the majority of rewards distributed in ways that you cannot go out and work towards achieving them directly, you have to go to the TP.
lets look at silk once again.
If your primary goal for the day is gathering silk, lets say 300 scraps, you will take like 2-3 hours if you are lucky. if you do some other activity you will make enough money to buy silk faster. The silk market is primarily supplied by people by accident. trying to obtain it directly is a waste of time.

point is gold is rewards in this game. the best way to specifically obtain most items is the gold/tp. so the guy who gets the most gold the fastest is winning the game, the best way to play the game to achieve set goals is to earn as much gold as possible.

This is why rewards are relevant to this discussion. The imbalance in the TP earning is an issue because as players learn the game, they begin to feel the most effecient way to play is to use one playstyle. For those that like the other 90% of the game they have three options
ignore rewards,
acheive them at a snails pace ( a pace designed around TP usuage)
do whatever makes the most money at the time repeatedly.

This is why the thread exists, its because rewards from potential profits on the TP give a distinct advantage within the games reward structure to one form of play over others.

phys.7689:

Profit on the TP is rewards, it is built in to the rewards system to its backbone. They convert the value of items into money based on what the TP says.

If you repeat this another 999,987 times it will magically become true. Just thought you might like to know that.

tolunart.2095:

Your complaints are not based in reality, it is a result of being jealous of some hypothetical TP Baron who bathes in the gold stolen from innocent players and picks his teeth with shards of broken precursors just because he can.

Because there actually is no problem, there is no solution to be offered. If you keep pretending that there is, I will keep setting you straight.

complaints about this arent jealousy of what TP baron has, its annoyance that the only way to get end game material goals is to bunker down and become an accountant or run a business.

I could care less if wanze has 10000 precursors 300 bank slots every single skin unlocked. The problem is, what do i have to do to obtain things in a timely fashion. The game forces me to compete with Wanze, Tolunart with every other player in a gold war to get end game items. Thats a problem because one style far and away excels over the others at gold warring.
Its an even bigger problem because 90% of the gameplay isnt about gold wars, but 90% of rewards are.

Everything that has been sold on the TP dropped in the game world, or was created from something that dropped in the game world.

Every. Single. Thing.

The TP does not create gold or items, it only exists as a method of exchange between players. Without it, you have the “Spamadon” or whatever they called it in GW, where players stood around all day going “WTS blah-blah…”

It is far more efficient and effective way to trade things you don’t want for things you do want. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the system and no one has been able to create a proposal which improves on this design.

tolunart.2095:

laokoko.7403:

all you said is you server hop. and you buy out an item which is limited supply. If people want to buy items cheap they can just place a cheaper bid.

If that’s the case. You can do it even if Rift use the GW2 system.

Place a cheaper bid for what?

There are 10 pieces of oak wood for sale at a minimum bid/buy price of 10s each. I buy all 10 and relist them for 25s each.

There are 10 pieces of oak wood for sale at a minimum bid/buy price of 25s each. How do you place a lower bid when this is the minimum you can pay for them?

You have absolutely no comprehension of what I tried to explain to you. You can’t bid on items that are not offered for sale. In GW2 you can place an order saying “I will pay 6s each for 10 pieces of oak wood” if you don’t want to pay 10s each. You can’t do that in Rift.

How do you buy out everything when there are items without a buyout price. You can bid 6 silver in rift too, just like you can in GW2.

And if you meant to tell me you want to manipulate by out bidding the 6 silver. You can do that in GW2 also, just keep bumping buy order price. Both way, there are always manipulator in either system. There are no difference.

I understand the part where the ebay system punish the buyer. That’s what you are trying to say. Since buyers can’t take advantage of people quick selling to buy items at much cheaper price. Which is exactly why this is a disadvantage on flippers.

Just like having an expire date punish the flippers. So if their items don’t sell, they have to pay at a much higher price.

You didnt’ make more money because of the Rift auction house. If it’s the GW2 system, you probably make even more since you can bid the wood at cheaper price. Not to mention if your items dont’ sell within the expire time, you are punished in Rift but not GW2.

laokoko.7403:

How do you buy out everything when there are items without a buyout price. You can bid 6 silver in rift too, just like you can in GW2.

Because players don’t want to wait for the stuff, they need to craft their oak wands TODAY not next week. Bidding on items at the AH was extremely rare and the vast majority of items sold for the minimum bid price.

You can set different bid/buy prices, but by default if the min bid was 10s then the buy now price was also 10s. So it was impossible to bid less than what the seller wanted because placing a bid was the same as buying it immediately.

Calling it an “auction” is inaccurate, because almost no one ever actually set up the sales as an auction. So what I did was buy out the available items and relist them at a higher price.

Because the market only covered a single server, it was easy for an individual to do this. The items were not listed fast enough to overcome this and I almost always sold the things I relisted at a huge profit.

Everything about Rift’s auction house is the exact opposite of GW’s trading post. Players can only choose from items that someone on their server has for sale, at the prices that person wants to sell them at. Here, you can choose from items for sale on every server, and place orders for items at a lower price than what the sellers want you to pay.

In both cases, most players don’t care about any of this, they need oak wood and they need it NOW so they will pay whatever the seller asks so they can craft their wands and get on with playing the game.

In Rift I could control, at least for a day, the goods that were available and you either had to go out into the world and farm or buy from me at a price I set. Here you can either farm, buy from me, or buy from any of dozens of other sellers who are competing with me, or place a buy order for the amount you’re willing to pay.

Do you understand this?

tolunart.2095:

phys.7689:

Profit on the TP is rewards, it is built in to the rewards system to its backbone. They convert the value of items into money based on what the TP says.

If you repeat this another 999,987 times it will magically become true. Just thought you might like to know that.

Coin is a reward. If you beat a foe, you get rewarded coin. If you complete a quest, you get rewarded coin. If you win a match, you get rewarded coin. There’s no possible way you can say coin is not a reward and be expected to be taken seriously or for intelligent on the subject. If you beat the spread guess what your reward is? Guess how traders make coin via the tp?

Just in case you weren’t familiar:

re·ward
ri?wôrd/
noun
noun: reward; plural noun: rewards

1.
a thing given in recognition of one’s service, effort, or achievement.

phys.7689:

Wanze.8410:

If you want to discuss reward structures that fair enough but you have to realize that profits on the tp are not rewards, its a completely different game mechanic and player regulated. Merchants make profits because they offer convenience to players. If your aim is to regulate profits you can only do so by regulating convenience along the way.
This will result in a worse game experience for most people because the elimination of the merchant class wont offer regular players a faster way to desired rewards.
Reworking reward tracks towards those rewards is a good way to go about that but it has absolutely nothing to do with potential profits on the TP.

Profit on the TP is rewards, it is built in to the rewards system to its backbone. They convert the value of items into money based on what the TP says.

perfect example, does ascended take 300 silk, per day because 300 silk per day is the good gameplay earning point? no it takes 300 silk per day because of economic design, the idea is that players will turn their other rewards from play into gold, and then turn the gold into silk.

The game has the majority of rewards distributed in ways that you cannot go out and work towards achieving them directly, you have to go to the TP.
lets look at silk once again.
If your primary goal for the day is gathering silk, lets say 300 scraps, you will take like 2-3 hours if you are lucky. if you do some other activity you will make enough money to buy silk faster. The silk market is primarily supplied by people by accident. trying to obtain it directly is a waste of time.

point is gold is rewards in this game. the best way to specifically obtain most items is the gold/tp. so the guy who gets the most gold the fastest is winning the game, the best way to play the game to achieve set goals is to earn as much gold as possible.

This is why rewards are relevant to this discussion. The imbalance in the TP earning is an issue because as players learn the game, they begin to feel the most effecient way to play is to use one playstyle. For those that like the other 90% of the game they have three options
ignore rewards,
acheive them at a snails pace ( a pace designed around TP usuage)
do whatever makes the most money at the time repeatedly.

This is why the thread exists, its because rewards from potential profits on the TP give a distinct advantage within the games reward structure to one form of play over others.

The TP actually enables everbody to chose the value of his earned rewards by deciding at which price to list. Rules and restrictions are the same for everybody so its a very level playing field. Every player can make the same profit as the flipper/speculator at the same pace by selling his earned loot at the same price as the speculator/flipper would. So the reason, why a player doesnt earn gold as fast as the flipper/speculator is solely because of his own choices.
If you argue that this happens because the average player is uninformed about how the trading post/economy works, shouldnt you aim at informing the general player base that there are easy ways to gain more gold for their loot by simply listing at a higher price? Its no rocket science and everybody who can calculate the difference between ascended and exotic armor stats can add a couple of % to their sell listing price, everytime they sell something.

I dare everybody who usually sells all his loot to the highest bidder (and therefore has a clean “items i am selling” tab) to start adding his loot to the lowest listing for a month. I´ll wager you that after 1 month more than 90% of your listings will have sold (most of them within a day or a week) and you gained more than 15% in profits over all. Its a simple matter of choice that most people are not willing to make and instead go complaining on the forums about others making the choice.

If somebody who IS usually selling to the highest bidder and has a clean “items I am selling” tab and willing to try out matching the lowest listing for a month for all his loot, i will offer him to double his potential loss in compensation. Potential loss in that scenario would be the difference in value of items that have not sold in that month and would have to be taken off the TP to be sold to the highest bid.
For proper documentation of items sold, i would require screenshots of your items sold tab. I will calculate the amount of extra profit you made by matching the lowest listing instead of selling to the highest bidder by using the average highest bid for each item you have sold from spidy.

Look at the precursor market – in a global marketplace there may be a dozen Dusks for sale, all different sellers competing to sell first. If the market was single server like Rift, each server would have 0 or 1 Dusk for sale.

I could buy that 1 Dusk for 1000g and relist it for 1500g. If you don’t want to pay my price, the only option would be to wait for another to drop on that server and be placed on the market. If I’m watching the marketplace and see it before you, I could buy that one and relist it for 1600g. Tough luck kid, either buy it from me or don’t buy it at all.

How is this better than the current system?

Essence Snow.3194:

Coin is a reward. If you beat a foe, you get rewarded coin. If you complete a quest, you get rewarded coin. If you win a match, you get rewarded coin. There’s no possible way you can say coin is not a reward and be expected to be taken seriously or for intelligent on the subject. If you beat the spread guess what your reward is? Guess how traders make coin via the tp?

That’s odd, because you are saying this and I find that I am unable to take anything you say seriously. I’ve tried, but I just can’t do it.

I do take Wanze seriously, however, and he says that it’s not a reward. Funny how that works.

Trading on the TP is an exchange of items for coin by mutual agreement. I have an item and you have some coin. I say give me this much coin and you can have the item. It’s not a reward, it’s a business transaction.

Is English your native language? If not just look for yourself. If so….well idk what the deal is.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/reward

Essence Snow.3194:

tolunart.2095:

phys.7689:

Profit on the TP is rewards, it is built in to the rewards system to its backbone. They convert the value of items into money based on what the TP says.

If you repeat this another 999,987 times it will magically become true. Just thought you might like to know that.

Coin is a reward. If you beat a foe, you get rewarded coin. If you complete a quest, you get rewarded coin. If you win a match, you get rewarded coin. There’s no possible way you can say coin is not a reward and be expected to be taken seriously or for intelligent on the subject. If you beat the spread guess what your reward is? Guess how traders make coin via the tp?

Just in case you weren’t familiar:

re·ward
ri?wôrd/
noun
noun: reward; plural noun: rewards

1.
a thing given in recognition of one’s service, effort, or achievement.

The difference is that rewards for services on the tp are given by other players and already existed in the game as value. Rewards for achievements, like killing a mob, completing a dungeon or event, are created and given out by Anet. So its fair to ask Anet to adjust rewards for certain achievements in the game becasue they are responsible for it, but if you want to regulate rewards/profits/value given from one player to another, you actually have to address the players, not Anet.

tolunart.2095:

In Rift I could control, at least for a day, the goods that were available and you either had to go out into the world and farm or buy from me at a price I set. Here you can either farm, buy from me, or buy from any of dozens of other sellers who are competing with me, or place a buy order for the amount you’re willing to pay.

Do you understand this?

You are probably right. This is quite a confusing topic for me myself. I have a hard time figure out which system is more manipulative.

I’m not talking about server hopping and isolated server though. Since that’s a different topic.

I’m create a seperate post since this is kind of getting off topic, and I hope I can get some more insight from other people so that’ll probably help me understand better.

Nice talking to you.

Essence Snow.3194:

.well idk what the deal is.

I’m not surprised, thirty pages and you still haven’t answered JS’s requests. Reading doesn’t seem to be your thing.

Wanze.8410:

Essence Snow.3194:

tolunart.2095:

phys.7689:

Profit on the TP is rewards, it is built in to the rewards system to its backbone. They convert the value of items into money based on what the TP says.

If you repeat this another 999,987 times it will magically become true. Just thought you might like to know that.

Coin is a reward. If you beat a foe, you get rewarded coin. If you complete a quest, you get rewarded coin. If you win a match, you get rewarded coin. There’s no possible way you can say coin is not a reward and be expected to be taken seriously or for intelligent on the subject. If you beat the spread guess what your reward is? Guess how traders make coin via the tp?

Just in case you weren’t familiar:

re·ward
ri?wôrd/
noun
noun: reward; plural noun: rewards

1.
a thing given in recognition of one’s service, effort, or achievement.

The difference is that rewards for services on the tp are given by other players and already existed in the game as value. Rewards for achievements, like killing a mob, completing a dungeon or event, are created and given out by Anet. So its fair to ask Anet to adjust rewards for certain achievements in the game becasue they are responsible for it, but if you want to regulate rewards/profits/value given from one player to another, you actually have to address the players, not Anet.

Thank you for agreeing that they are rewards. I never said there wasn’t any difference. I just said they were rewards. Just like a Granny Smith, Fiji, or Golden Delicious, the same premise applies. Even though they have differences they are all still apples.

tolunart.2095:

That’s odd, because you are saying this and I find that I am unable to take anything you say seriously. I’ve tried, but I just can’t do it.

I do take Wanze seriously, however, and he says that it’s not a reward. Funny how that works.

Funny how things work out, is it not?

laokoko.7403:

tolunart.2095:

In Rift I could control, at least for a day, the goods that were available and you either had to go out into the world and farm or buy from me at a price I set. Here you can either farm, buy from me, or buy from any of dozens of other sellers who are competing with me, or place a buy order for the amount you’re willing to pay.

Do you understand this?

You are probably right. This is quite a confusing topic for me myself. I have a hard time figure out which system is more manipulative.

I’m not talking about server hopping and isolated server though. Since that’s a different topic.

I’m create a seperate post since this is kind of getting off topic, and I hope I can get some more insight from other people so that’ll probably help me understand better.

Nice talking to you.

I actually made a topic, asking, if a Dolyak Express or CDI towards the Trading Post would be a better way to inform people and have a fruitful discussion about how suggested changes to the trading post/economy would be better or worse for the general player base. I think its clear that the discussion in this topic stopped being progressive plenty of pages ago. But until now i have gotten no response in that topic but plenty in this one, so I am wondering how much people are actually interested in a fruitful discussion in the first place.

Essence Snow.3194:

Funny how things work out, is it not?

Congratulations! Print it out and I’ll give you a gold star.

Wanze.8410:

I think its clear that the discussion in this topic stopped being progressive plenty of pages ago. But until now i have gotten no response in that topic but plenty in this one, so I am wondering how much people are actually interested in a fruitful discussion in the first place.

Well, JS has proven that he is a reasonable person who will listen to the players and take action when appropriate – such as the situations with crystalline dust, ecto salvaging, etc.

Individuals who were interested in presenting their arguments were invited to do so, and declined. So I don’t think there is much potential for meaningful discussion here.

Essence Snow.3194:

Wanze.8410:

Essence Snow.3194:

tolunart.2095:

phys.7689:

Profit on the TP is rewards, it is built in to the rewards system to its backbone. They convert the value of items into money based on what the TP says.

If you repeat this another 999,987 times it will magically become true. Just thought you might like to know that.

Coin is a reward. If you beat a foe, you get rewarded coin. If you complete a quest, you get rewarded coin. If you win a match, you get rewarded coin. There’s no possible way you can say coin is not a reward and be expected to be taken seriously or for intelligent on the subject. If you beat the spread guess what your reward is? Guess how traders make coin via the tp?

Just in case you weren’t familiar:

re·ward
ri?wôrd/
noun
noun: reward; plural noun: rewards

1.
a thing given in recognition of one’s service, effort, or achievement.

The difference is that rewards for services on the tp are given by other players and already existed in the game as value. Rewards for achievements, like killing a mob, completing a dungeon or event, are created and given out by Anet. So its fair to ask Anet to adjust rewards for certain achievements in the game becasue they are responsible for it, but if you want to regulate rewards/profits/value given from one player to another, you actually have to address the players, not Anet.

Thank you for agreeing that they are rewards. I never said there wasn’t any difference. I just said they were rewards. Just like a Granny Smith, Fiji, or Golden Delicious, the same premise applies. Even though they have differences they are all still apples.

So you just chipped in to discuss the proper usage of words?
Your point is that we should use the same word (rewards) for two game mechanics that you are fully aware of that are completely different in how they work and who is responsible for them just because they have the same outcome (gold)?
I made the destinction in my choice of words of profit (gold gained on tp) and rewards (gold gained from achievements) to point out that they are different game mechanics and cant be regulated in the same way. It doesnt matter, what you call them, they will still be different.

You complained earlier in this thread that people that contribute to topics like this only discuss semantics and you expect nothing good to ever come out of topics like this.
Now I am trying to explain people the difference in game mechanics between rewards on the tp and through regular gameplay (which you never denied to be the case) and all you do is discuss semantics about my proper use of the words rewards/profits.
Doesnt that make you the very person you complained about earlier that brings nothing constructive to the table?
Just for your information, english is not my first language, its also not my second language but my third.
Does it really stroke your ego that much to discuss semantics with someone like me by linking dictionary entries? Seems a little condescending to me but thanks for the link.
And doesnt it feel a little pathetic to claim that you want to contribute to a better game experience and every time when you are asked by a Dev or another User to elaborate on your thin suggestions, completely change the subject or start discussing semantics?

tolunart.2095:

Wanze.8410:

I think its clear that the discussion in this topic stopped being progressive plenty of pages ago. But until now i have gotten no response in that topic but plenty in this one, so I am wondering how much people are actually interested in a fruitful discussion in the first place.

Well, JS has proven that he is a reasonable person who will listen to the players and take action when appropriate – such as the situations with crystalline dust, ecto salvaging, etc.

Individuals who were interested in presenting their arguments were invited to do so, and declined. So I don’t think there is much potential for meaningful discussion here.

And thats why I actually think that a Dolyak Express would make more sense at this time. In my eyes, alot of dissatisfaction about the trading post/economy is just based on some common misconceptions and missing knowledge of the general player base.
Even if other players try to explain to them how certain things are and why something cant be implemented, they still demand an answer from a dev. And for that, the Dolyak express is the best solution, in my opinion, because players have the chance to ask important questions directly to JS and its easier for him to answer important questions that might get lost in a topic like this. And having answers to those questions enables us players to have a better idea of Anets point of view on the status quo. With that in mind, i think, discussions in a CDI that follows will be way more constructive than a topic like this.

Wanze.8410:

And doesnt it feel a little pathetic to claim that you want to contribute to a better game experience and every time when you are asked by a Dev or another User to elaborate on your thin suggestions, completely change the subject or start discussing semantics?

He just likes polling the forums… oh, wait, my bad, “polling” wasn’t the word I was looking for. Where’s my dictionary?

Wanze.8410:

laokoko.7403:

tolunart.2095:

In Rift I could control, at least for a day, the goods that were available and you either had to go out into the world and farm or buy from me at a price I set. Here you can either farm, buy from me, or buy from any of dozens of other sellers who are competing with me, or place a buy order for the amount you’re willing to pay.

Do you understand this?

You are probably right. This is quite a confusing topic for me myself. I have a hard time figure out which system is more manipulative.

I’m not talking about server hopping and isolated server though. Since that’s a different topic.

I’m create a seperate post since this is kind of getting off topic, and I hope I can get some more insight from other people so that’ll probably help me understand better.

Nice talking to you.

I actually made a topic, asking, if a Dolyak Express or CDI towards the Trading Post would be a better way to inform people and have a fruitful discussion about how suggested changes to the trading post/economy would be better or worse for the general player base. I think its clear that the discussion in this topic stopped being progressive plenty of pages ago. But until now i have gotten no response in that topic but plenty in this one, so I am wondering how much people are actually interested in a fruitful discussion in the first place.

point is most people dont want to think about the economy, they just feel dissatisfied. They ask for things they think will help solve the issue, because they dont know what the real issues are.

Thats really my whole point a large percentage of the population doesnt really know/care about economics, and thus feel a lack of reward, because knowing about economics vastly imrpoves what you can earn in this game.

They will continue to feel unrewarded unless they play the game in an economically sound way, the disconnect comes, because the game wasnt marketed as an economic game.

tolunart.2095:

Wanze.8410:

And doesnt it feel a little pathetic to claim that you want to contribute to a better game experience and every time when you are asked by a Dev or another User to elaborate on your thin suggestions, completely change the subject or start discussing semantics?

He just likes polling the forums… oh, wait, my bad, “polling” wasn’t the word I was looking for. Where’s my dictionary?

Was it schooling?

I find it funny that when ya’ll do it it’s fine, but when it gets turned around it’s not. I have no issues discussing something, but if you insist on debate, I’ll debate.

phys.7689:

They will continue to feel unrewarded unless they play the game in an economically sound way, the disconnect comes, because the game wasnt marketed as an economic game.

I think you’re making some pretty big jumps to questionable conclusions here. More likely they just don’t think about the TP or the economy at all, really, except as a tool to get rid of clutter.

As I play the game, my bags fill with blue, green gear and crafting mats. I can deposit the mats in collectibles but the gear stays there. I can buy salvage kits and break down most of the stuff into crafting mats and deposit those, or I can access the TP from anywhere and sell the gear to other players.

Now, I haven’t looked lately but before account-wide MF the TP was absolutely stuffed with blue and green gear that was listed at the minimum possible sell order price (vendor value +1c). If you take a second to think about it, the money you get from selling it is actually less than vendor value because of the 15% fee. But players don’t usually carry a vendor in their back pocket so it’s easier to sell at a loss to empty their bags than to think about how to price the items or hold them until a vendor is found.

Of course, if I’m interested in crafting skills, it’s to my advantage to salvage the gear and use the mats for crafting. But a lot of players don’t care about that either, they just want to run around and kill stuff. So a lot of loot just gets listed for a minimum sale price (match lowest seller) or sold to buy orders for quick cash (match highest buyer) because these are the easiest options.

So it’s not that they feel bad about the TP, they don’t feel anything at all. It’s just a necessary chore to “clean out your bags” that they want to get out of the way as quickly as possible and don’t spend any more time or effort on it than absolutely necessary.

Because they don’t care, they provide opportunities to those who do, by offering salvageable items at low prices that can be turned into crafting mats and sold for a profit, for example.

You can educate players and tell them that by spending a few minutes thinking about the TP they can make a lot more money, but you can’t make them care. The players who just want to empty their bags and get back to killing stuff will just empty their bags and go back to killing stuff.

To backtrack a bit: mtpelion, I really liked your story. Kudos to you for writing it.

I think the complaints of the adventurer and farmer were misrepresented in the story though. What they REALLY wanted was for the fruits of their labor (i.e. time spent in game) to yield the same rewards as that of the merchant.

The end goal – Have a nice place to live in/show off. (i.e. have flashy skins)

The adventurer gets this by going out, killing monsters, and collecting loot.

The farmer gets this by planting crops and selling his produce.

The merchant gets this by facilitating trade between people who want different products.

Each of the above players gets enjoyment by doing activities they like to do, so that’s taken out of the equation, but the merchant gets a much fancier house at the end compared to the other two. That’s where the complaints are coming from.

(Of course, this is a gross simplification of the situation. It doesn’t take into account factors like the time or difficulty of the three players’ activity types, game-wide economic health, and out-of-game considerations like the need maintaining player interest over a long period of time. But I’m sure you can see my point about what the adventurer and farmer were after.)

@Essence Snow

If you accept the notion that it’s in a player’s right to sell an item for as much as they can get and buy an item for the least amount of coin then the problem some are having is the source of the item and the use of a bought item and that’s it.

A player willing to buy an item from lowest seller or sell an item to the highest bidder doesn’t care where the item came from or how the buyer is planning to do with it. They spend and earn the same amount of coin.

Take a piece of rare armor with low sell of 40s and high bid of 25s.

Player A gets it on a drop. Chooses for whatever reason to sell it to the high bid and gets a profit of 21.25s Sure they could have sold it for 40s and may have gotten an extra 12.75s but they may have to wait a day or a week for the sale to happen.

Player B decides it’s time to upgrade their armor and chooses to pay 40s for one now than putting in a bid for 25s and again wait a day or a week for it do come in, even if they save 37.5% or 15s.

So Player C has a buy order in for 25s and gets Player A’s item and flips it and put it up for sale at 40s. Player A gets the same 21.25s profit from selling to Player C that they would have gotten if the buyer was simply going to use it in some manner. At some point Player B comes along and buys that item for 40s. Player B doesn’t care that the item isn’t fresh from a drop or crafting, their goal was owning that item.

And what does Player C get? Only 9s. And that 9s comes from not caring if it takes a day or a week to buy the item and another day or week to sell it. They are being paid for being taking on the delay that Player A and B weren’t willing to take.

And if Player C has competition over that item, then the result is Player A will end up getting more coin, Player B ends up paying less coin and Player C’s profit suffers.

But what about Player B buying from Player A? Either A would have to but in a sale order or B would have had to put in an offer and neither were willing to do that. So Player C did not short circuit someone else’s transaction.

Speculation, that’s a different beast all together.

Zaxares.5419:

To backtrack a bit: mtpelion, I really liked your story. Kudos to you for writing it.

I think the complaints of the adventurer and farmer were misrepresented in the story though. What they REALLY wanted was for the fruits of their labor (i.e. time spent in game) to yield the same rewards as that of the merchant.

It does, and more. The problem is one of perception on the part of the complaints, and I think they misjudge the number of players who have a problem with the system as it exists.

TP flippers don’t create anything, they pay other players for their time spent in game and get paid by other players for their time.

The cost to kill some monsters or gather mats from a few nodes is close to nothing. Because it cost the player 0 to collect the items, every bit of money they get is profit. The player selling stuff doesn’t care whether he gets 10s or 15s for his item, when you open the TP interface you see both prices. He has to make a decision “hey, I don’t want to take a chance on this thing sitting on the TP forever to get an extra 5s, so I’ll take 10s for it now. It didn’t cost me anything so +10s (minus fees) in my wallet is good!”

The flipper says “If I offer someone 10s for the item, I know it’ll sell quickly for 15s, I know it’s only +5s (minus fees) but I can put that money right back into the TP and make more.”

So the TP takes its cut and the farmer/adventurer walks away 8.5s richer and is happy, and the flipper puts the 2.8s or so he made after the flip back to work for him and is happy. And Anet sinks 15% of the currency twice and is happy to cut down on inflation, allowing them to create more gold and items out of thin air to keep the system going.

If the farmer/adventurer wasn’t happy with the system, they would stop logging in. Without new items to sell, the flipper wouldn’t get his orders filled and wouldn’t make any money, so he wouldn’t be happy and would stop logging in. The economy would stagnate and there would be less people selling and less people to sell to.

JS can tell you that the goods and money move into and out of the TP very very fast, so it appears that this isn’t happening. So we can conclude that enough players are happy with the system as it is now that they continue logging in, killing monsters, farming nodes, and flipping on the TP.

Note that in the hypothetical situation, despite eventually selling the item for 50% than the farmer/adventurer did, the flipper made about 33% as much as the farmer/adventurer did from the transaction. And most flips are less profit than that per item, he makes money on the volume and velocity of trading while the farmer/adventurer makes money on the amount of time and effort he spends on the game.

If they are both having fun doing their respective activities, who are we to say they aren’t allowed to continue doing them?

Zaxares.5419:

To backtrack a bit: mtpelion, I really liked your story. Kudos to you for writing it.

I think the complaints of the adventurer and farmer were misrepresented in the story though. What they REALLY wanted was for the fruits of their labor (i.e. time spent in game) to yield the same rewards as that of the merchant.

I wouldn’t say they were misrepresented, I merely represented one subset in order to tell a cautionary tale.

There are definitely other sides to every position, they just didn’t apply to my narrative.

Thanks for the compliment though!

Essence Snow.3194:

I have no issues discussing something, but if you insist on debate, I’ll debate.

Actually, when I read your posts, I get the impression that you are adverse to discussion.

And, discuss != debate.

mtpelion.4562:

Zaxares.5419:

To backtrack a bit: mtpelion, I really liked your story. Kudos to you for writing it.

I think the complaints of the adventurer and farmer were misrepresented in the story though. What they REALLY wanted was for the fruits of their labor (i.e. time spent in game) to yield the same rewards as that of the merchant.

I wouldn’t say they were misrepresented, I merely represented one subset in order to tell a cautionary tale.

There are definitely other sides to every position, they just didn’t apply to my narrative.

Thanks for the compliment though!

I really enjoyed reading your story. I found it very apropos.

Behellagh.1468:

If you accept the notion that it’s in a player’s right to sell an item for as much as they can get and buy an item for the least amount of coin then the problem some are having is the source of the item and the use of a bought item and that’s it.

A player willing to buy an item from lowest seller or sell an item to the highest bidder doesn’t care where the item came from or how the buyer is planning to do with it. They spend and earn the same amount of coin.

…(cut only for brevity, it is a very good explanation)…

I think that your whole post is getting to the point very effectively. It shows exactly the point people have been making in that the “issue”/“problem”/“complaint” is directly attributable to players and how they choose to play the game. Unless there is a way to educate players on how they are contributing to the “issue”/“problem”/“complaint” , then it will continue to exist.

I think that the suggestion by Wanze of a Dolyak Express on the TP would be beneficial in this regard.

brittitude.1983:

Essence Snow.3194:

I have no issues discussing something, but if you insist on debate, I’ll debate.

Actually, when I read your posts, I get the impression that you are adverse to discussion.

And, discuss != debate.

That is fine, you are entitled to your opinion. I’m not sure when you started reading, but I can assure that transition in my posts from discussion to debate has been a direct result of others debating posts and not discussing the topics at hand. Please feel free to search through my post history if you feel otherwise. They go back since the forums started.

In terms of this topic I have been rather open about my thoughts. I do not think the trading post is evil. I am not wholeheartedly against trading (I trade myself). I am for balance of rewards (this does not mean exactly equal, but rather same ball park). I am for continual improvement of GW2 as a whole. I am for being casual friendly (even though I am far from it, 6k+ hours). I do react to posts that jump on others (notice my debate posts are mainly reactionary). I do think GW2 is a good game, BUT I also think it could be better.

over and over I keep seeing comments about the rewards from tp. Been playing it for some time. Even googled and wiki search still not able to find a list of items the tp gives as a reward. Just wondering if someone who keeps saying the rewards from tp would mind to post the link of possible rewards. I just can’t seem to find it. go figure.

Either there is a list of rewards or they don’t exist. But as adamantly as some claim there is, there must be a list somewhere. Need to know what I need to buy to be able to claim or attempt to get the tp to drop that item for me. Is it like the forge? random?

Wanze.8410:

And thats why I actually think that a Dolyak Express would make more sense at this time. In my eyes, alot of dissatisfaction about the trading post/economy is just based on some common misconceptions and missing knowledge of the general player base.
Even if other players try to explain to them how certain things are and why something cant be implemented, they still demand an answer from a dev. And for that, the Dolyak express is the best solution, in my opinion, because players have the chance to ask important questions directly to JS and its easier for him to answer important questions that might get lost in a topic like this. And having answers to those questions enables us players to have a better idea of Anets point of view on the status quo. With that in mind, i think, discussions in a CDI that follows will be way more constructive than a topic like this.

Usually, CDIs are for serious discussions. How do you have one, when the main complaint is that people are jealous because some players know how to make money?

Plus, since the economy is working as intended, wouldn’t a CDI be pointless? Most of the issues brought up in this thread are due to players not understanding how the in-game economy works in the first place. For example:

Complaint #1: I need to make more money. Make it easier for all players.
Side effect: Inflation, since Gold faucets increase for both poor and rich players alike.

Complaint #2: There needs to be balance in Gold rewards for events and TP barons.
Side effect: Since you can’t compare wealth generating events with TP profits, this complaint is void.

Complaint #3: Tax the rich, because they’re playing the game differently from me.
Side effect: TP item prices increase, as taxes are passed down to the poor.

Complaint #4: RNG favors the lucky. Get rid of RNG, and make all items easily obtainable.
Side effect: Game dies. No one cares to farm for items that are common as dirt.

Complaint #5: Mounts. We need them.
Side effect: I spend too much money buying Gems, thus preventing me from paying my mortgage.

william dj.6953:

over and over I keep seeing comments about the rewards from tp. Been playing it for some time. Even googled and wiki search still not able to find a list of items the tp gives as a reward. Just wondering if someone who keeps saying the rewards from tp would mind to post the link of possible rewards. I just can’t seem to find it. go figure.

Either there is a list of rewards or they don’t exist. But as adamantly as some claim there is, there must be a list somewhere. Need to know what I need to buy to be able to claim or attempt to get the tp to drop that item for me. Is it like the forge? random?

Here you go. http://gw2tp.net/ Enjoy

william dj.6953:

over and over I keep seeing comments about the rewards from tp. Been playing it for some time. Even googled and wiki search still not able to find a list of items the tp gives as a reward. Just wondering if someone who keeps saying the rewards from tp would mind to post the link of possible rewards. I just can’t seem to find it. go figure.

Either there is a list of rewards or they don’t exist. But as adamantly as some claim there is, there must be a list somewhere. Need to know what I need to buy to be able to claim or attempt to get the tp to drop that item for me. Is it like the forge? random?

The issue here is that the players bringing up this complaint don’t understand the fundamental differences between rewards generated from events and quests, and profits from the TP. This is akin to saying “Apples grow on trees, and so does milk”. So don’t worry. Any and all complaints bringing up “balancing rewards from the TP” are pure fallacies.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

william dj.6953:

over and over I keep seeing comments about the rewards from tp. Been playing it for some time. Even googled and wiki search still not able to find a list of items the tp gives as a reward. Just wondering if someone who keeps saying the rewards from tp would mind to post the link of possible rewards. I just can’t seem to find it. go figure.

Either there is a list of rewards or they don’t exist. But as adamantly as some claim there is, there must be a list somewhere. Need to know what I need to buy to be able to claim or attempt to get the tp to drop that item for me. Is it like the forge? random?

The issue here is that the players bringing up this complaint don’t understand the fundamental differences between rewards generated from events and quests, and profits from the TP. This is akin to saying “Apples grow on trees, and so does milk”. So don’t worry. Any and all complaints bringing up “balancing rewards from the TP” are pure fallacies.

what you dont get penguin, is that it really doesnt matter on a micro level. You are talking about large scale economics, what you are ignoring is the people who live under them.

yes, TP use deflates the economy and is an exchange of goods and services.
yes Gameplay creates goods and services.

but on the personal level its irrelevant. for each player it comes down to value earned per playtime. The truth is penguin, a working super economy is completely optional in games. Many successful games have no economy, or extremely limited economy.

The problem is the value earned per playtime is very low for many players of a certain playstyle. and comparably high and with a non linear growth method competing with it for the same goods and services.

Now on the high end, Designers and economist people should be trying to design solutions that allow users to feel greater value per playtime without inflating the economy past planned levels. But that doesnt mean that its not a problem just because it works in the macro economy.

william dj.6953:

over and over I keep seeing comments about the rewards from tp. Been playing it for some time. Even googled and wiki search still not able to find a list of items the tp gives as a reward. Just wondering if someone who keeps saying the rewards from tp would mind to post the link of possible rewards. I just can’t seem to find it. go figure.

Either there is a list of rewards or they don’t exist. But as adamantly as some claim there is, there must be a list somewhere. Need to know what I need to buy to be able to claim or attempt to get the tp to drop that item for me. Is it like the forge? random?

gold is a reward, and the items you buy with gold is a reward.

Do you really think wanze with his 60k gold in value (many of which are items) can truely say he has gotten no rewards playing the TP?
I feel like you guys must be arguing semantics here, because you can’t possibly really beleive that getting gold and items is not a reward.

People keep defending “for the economy”… yet economy is only a supplemental feature to actual gameplay in itself and as such is not even required for the PvE/PvP stuff this game is about (if you believe the what the devs say, that is).

And to those who keep saying – but it IS gameplay! – well, I have never seen anyone mention “market trading” as a feature at the same level as crafting, guilds, dungeons, openworld bosses, WvW, PvP and so on. Until the day when goods trading is marketed as a reason to get this game, I will not consider it important.

One could even go as far as to say that trading is not _game_play at all. You are actually moving real measurable wealth between people much like on a real stock market. Factor in that some of the gold does indeed come from real money (albeit a tiny fraction) and the only difference between real trading and GW2 trading is that of volume.

brittitude.1983:

Behellagh.1468:

If you accept the notion that it’s in a player’s right to sell an item for as much as they can get and buy an item for the least amount of coin then the problem some are having is the source of the item and the use of a bought item and that’s it.

A player willing to buy an item from lowest seller or sell an item to the highest bidder doesn’t care where the item came from or how the buyer is planning to do with it. They spend and earn the same amount of coin.

…(cut only for brevity, it is a very good explanation)…

I think that your whole post is getting to the point very effectively. It shows exactly the point people have been making in that the “issue”/“problem”/“complaint” is directly attributable to players and how they choose to play the game. Unless there is a way to educate players on how they are contributing to the “issue”/“problem”/“complaint” , then it will continue to exist.

I think that the suggestion by Wanze of a Dolyak Express on the TP would be beneficial in this regard.

See i have a few problems with this idea of player education.

1)the fact that players need education on the TP in order to get full value of their playtime, suggests that the TP/merchanting is a core gameplay mode/design of the game. If so, i really wish they had marketed it as such

2) If TP /merchanting is a core gameplay mode/design it needs way more tutorials, warnings, information, UI and design/regulations in place. If the game is primarily messed up due to players who cant play infesting the game mode, why does the game actively push them into the game mode? Where is the gear/liscence check on TP playing. Why are pro veteran TP players taking advantage of noobs?

3)Even if the tp is supposed to be one core gameplay mechanic, why is it more dominant than others with respect to obtaining rewards. Before you say because other playtypes inflate the economy, ask yourself why they are not some designs in place that dont inflate the economy, but reward other playstyles.

phys.7689:

gold is a reward, and the items you buy with gold is a reward.

Do you really think wanze with his 60k gold in value (many of which are items) can truely say he has gotten no rewards playing the TP?
I feel like you guys must be arguing semantics here, because you can’t possibly really beleive that getting gold and items is not a reward.

There is an important distinction that exists that must not be ignored, which is why the “semantics” are coming into play.

Wanze was not rewarded by the game. He was rewarded by other players.
That distinction is the reason why rewards obtained through playing the TP CANNOT be “balanced”. ArenaNet does not control them.

mtpelion.4562:

phys.7689:

gold is a reward, and the items you buy with gold is a reward.

Do you really think wanze with his 60k gold in value (many of which are items) can truely say he has gotten no rewards playing the TP?
I feel like you guys must be arguing semantics here, because you can’t possibly really beleive that getting gold and items is not a reward.

There is an important distinction that exists that must not be ignored, which is why the “semantics” are coming into play.

Wanze was not rewarded by the game. He was rewarded by other players.
That distinction is the reason why rewards obtained through playing the TP CANNOT be “balanced”. ArenaNet does not control them.

It can be balanced, but im guessing you are saying it wouldnt be a good idea.
That said why doesnt anet come up with more solutions for the players to reward other playtypes. Spvp tournaments with gold entrance fees (pot awarded to winners) Formal mercenary questing/player created systems, Mercenary hiring in WvW. Competitive dungeoning, pay to enter, winner per cycle keeps the cash per cycle etc. There are tons of ways, and services that dont create items they could introduce for other playstyles.

btw rewards is a poor term for what you guys are talking about, because player reward in terms of what they get per hour, from the server/other players must be considered in design as well.
i would say something like generating resources if i wanted to be clear in my meaning.

mtpelion.4562:

phys.7689:

gold is a reward, and the items you buy with gold is a reward.

Do you really think wanze with his 60k gold in value (many of which are items) can truely say he has gotten no rewards playing the TP?
I feel like you guys must be arguing semantics here, because you can’t possibly really beleive that getting gold and items is not a reward.

There is an important distinction that exists that must not be ignored, which is why the “semantics” are coming into play.

Wanze was not rewarded by the game. He was rewarded by other players.
That distinction is the reason why rewards obtained through playing the TP CANNOT be “balanced”. ArenaNet does not control them.

First, the players are not rewarding people willingly or even knowingly. In fact, I would wager many of them never stopped to think that they are selling not to the game, but to other players that ill then resell to more players.
Secondly, they can be somewhat balanced.
One such example is, albeit probably unintentional, the clunkiness, bad design and slow responsiveness of the TP UI. It’s so much slower than the other parts of game UI and thus it is annoying to do anything on the TP, and more importantly, the speed limits what you can do per unit of time. :-)

phys.7689:

3)Even if the tp is supposed to be one core gameplay mechanic, why is it more dominant than others with respect to obtaining rewards. Before you say because other playtypes inflate the economy, ask yourself why they are not some designs in place that dont inflate the economy, but reward other playstyles.

Again, you make the mistake of comparing rewards from events and quests, to TP profits. These are two inherently different things. One creates items and coin, the other trades it with a Gold Sink attached. I’ll try to explain it below.

Generating items/coins: The game generates reward chests and other loot drops when certain criteria are met. Defeating a boss, completing an event/task, or killing a target. These items and coins never existed before they dropped, thus have an important effect on the health of the game economy. The more of these are generated, the more their values decrease. This is why it’s important for Anet to curb events that reward “too much loot”. A good example of this was last year’s Ancient Karka chest. So many high level items were generated, that the market for them collapsed. This wouldn’t be a problem if GW2 were like a single-player console game. Those don’t have an economy with a shared market.

Market profits from TP: The Black Lion Trading Post does not generate rewards. Everything available on the TP already exists in game. The TP is a tool that allows players to buy and sell items they want/need, all while eliminating Gold via build in sinks (i.e. taxes and listing fees). Prices are set by Supply and Demand. The more of a certain thing someone wants, and the less of it are available, the more expensive the item. Wealth is moved between players, with 15% of the value in coin being removed from the game.

Going back to your question, there are ways to reward different playstyles. You have not only Gold as currency, but Dungeon tokens, Karma, WvW Badges, and even SPvP reward tracks from ranking up. The items that are Account Bound do not contribute to inflation. As such, that means they can’t generate wealth for you either. The player needs to decide how they want to be rewarded. Farm for items that can be sold to other players, or farm for items that you want to use for yourself.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Again, you make the mistake of comparing rewards from events and quests, to TP profits. These are two inherently different things. One creates items and coin, the other trades it with a Gold Sink attached. I’ll try to explain it below.

Or, you know, you’re making the mistake of making a distinction where one is not relevant for the issue.

The reasons why it is unimportant have been stated many times already.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

phys.7689:

3)Even if the tp is supposed to be one core gameplay mechanic, why is it more dominant than others with respect to obtaining rewards. Before you say because other playtypes inflate the economy, ask yourself why they are not some designs in place that dont inflate the economy, but reward other playstyles.

Again, you make the mistake of comparing rewards from events and quests, to TP profits. These are two inherently different things. One creates items and coin, the other trades it with a Gold Sink attached. I’ll try to explain it below.

Generating items/coins: The game generates reward chests and other loot drops when certain criteria are met. Defeating a boss, completing an event/task, or killing a target. These items and coins never existed before they dropped, thus have an important effect on the health of the game economy. The more of these are generated, the more their values decrease. This is why it’s important for Anet to curb events that reward “too much loot”. A good example of this was last year’s Ancient Karka chest. So many high level items were generated, that the market for them collapsed. This wouldn’t be a problem if GW2 were like a single-player console game. Those don’t have an economy with a shared market.

Market profits from TP: The Black Lion Trading Post does not generate rewards. Everything available on the TP already exists in game. The TP is a tool that allows players to buy and sell items they want/need, all while eliminating Gold via build in sinks (i.e. taxes and listing fees). Prices are set by Supply and Demand. The more of a certain thing someone wants, and the less of it are available, the more expensive the item. Wealth is moved between players, with 15% of the value in coin being removed from the game.

Going back to your question, there are ways to reward different playstyles. You have not only Gold as currency, but Dungeon tokens, Karma, WvW Badges, and even SPvP reward tracks from ranking up. The items that are Account Bound do not contribute to inflation. As such, that means they can’t generate wealth for you either. The player needs to decide how they want to be rewarded. Farm for items that can be sold to other players, or farm for items that you want to use for yourself.

this is irrelevant to the question of why is one playstyle better at obtaining game rewards than the other.
you can think of it as an equation where you look at the end result

playstyle A with X amount of hours played player can obtain rewards in the value of Y generated by some means or someone
playstyle B with X amount of hours played player can obtain rewards in the value of Y generated by some means or someone

Im not mistaking the difference between resource creation and resource reallocation, im saying it doesnt really matter which is which to most players, just how fast they can get rewarded.

So my point is IF the primary reason why regulay playstyles are not rewarded is because they are resource creation, then why arent other resource reallocation methods of giving reward not promoted, and made as facile as TP activities?

I outlined some examples in previous posts.

to be clear when i say reward, i mean getting something for your time, not whether its a player or the game that provides it. When i am talking about resource generation, i will say resource generation, and resource reallocation, because both can be rewards in my book.