Guild Wars 2

Just three weeks ago the Molten Alliance Mining Pick was state of the art and there was no news about releasing higher quality gathering picks. I spent 170g (or 56.66g for MAMP) to get my infinite gathering tools thinking they would be a long term investment. Less than a month later my cash shop item has been made obsolete by this new one. In the future, could the logging axes and harvesting sickles give out other items, like Azurite Orbs or Pristine Toxic Spore Samples? Why should my MAMP become less valuable and useful one month after I bought it when I had no prior knowledge to save my gems and wait for these new and improved items?

This situation is unfair and it sets a bad precedent. I’ll hold off on gem store purchases from now on until I know that the final version of an item is going to be released, so I don’t waste my money on obsolete goods.

Well, this is awkward. Which form of currency did you spend again? I’m with you on the unfairness. ..but I think the aim is for real world currency…and is likely occurring because of gold being spent, rather than money, as is the case with you.

I converted gold to gems, it cost me exactly 170g to get the 2250 gems. I’m glad that I didn’t spend real money, I’d feel worse about this if I did.

I spent real money, kinda stinks.

Irrelevant.

With 55G you can buy 137500 normal pickaxes (1375 “stacks”). Assuming you use them all on Orichalcum ores and a (trade post) profit of 3,5 silver per ore, this would get you roughly 4757,5 (4812,5-55) gold, not counting any jewels you might find during mining.

With the 20% chance of sprockets, mining 137500 times would get you 27500 sprockets. Assuming a profit per sprocket of 45c (in between current price of 40-57, minus TP tax), these would make you 123,75 gold. The new pickaxe is 25% more expensive than the MAMP, which if the gem/gold rate is still the same would equal to 68,75 gold.

4812,5+123,75-68,75 = 4867,5 gold after 137500 uses. Roughly 2,3% more than with normal pickaxes or a MAMP, still not counting any jewels found during mining.
As the investment costs are higher and most people are unlikely to mine even 50000 times, buying the new pickaxe seems dumb and you should be happy you didn’t waste money on it.

That said, just buying normal picks seems still the best option, though a little less convenient.

I’ve done the calculations too and I know how long it takes to recoup the cost of buying the infinite gathering tools, that’s not the main problem. The MAMP that I bought 3 weeks ago was the best item available at the time and it was discounted 25% because of a special sale. The two items normally sell for the same price and one has added functionality over the other. Also Watchwork Sprockets can change in price, they were 1s just a few weeks ago, and by finding the right gathering paths I can gather a stack of assorted Iron, Silver, Gold, Platinum in one hour (50 Sprockets = 50s, or 25s right now). It makes gathering significantly more profitable and if I had known a month in advance I wouldn’t have bought my infinite tools. it’s not fair that my MAMP has been made obsolete less than a month after it was on sale.

There are 3 reasonable solutions I’ve thought of so far:

1. The functionality should be removed from the Clockwork Pick and the buyers should be offered a refund.
2. The functionality should be added to all of the mining picks currently available.
3. Players who bought infinite mining picks during the New Year’s sale and earlier should be offered to delete their items and get a refund.

If I can get a refund on mine I’d buy the new Watchwork one, it’s that good compared to the earlier versions, and that’s what I have a problem with.

Next station on the GW2 train: Pay-to-Win!

Oh wait, we’re already there.

I throw sprockets away as junk. You mean they are actually worth something?

While I feel the sentiment, I check the price: 1K gems … the others were only 800 gems at regular price. You pay for that added function on the new one.

While I would like the opportunity to refund (because I have 4 such picks), I don’t get why Anet would allow it. The most reasonable solution here is to allow people to pay 200 gems on an upgrade for their current infinite mining picks.

No you didn’t. Account bound, not soul bound, gather tools are 1000 gems. The soul bound ones were 800 gems.

The first infinite tools cost 800, and got a free conversion to acct bound.
And yes, the best solution would be to offer an upgrade fee of 200 gems. This counts for any items that they release, then offer an upgraded one, IE salvage bot from basic to fine.
These threads are similar.

Here

They are now. Can make gems and new armor types with them, assuming you have the recipes obtained from the latest LW. You need like a stack or two to even use them though. All things given, I’m not overly kitten. We need a lot of them to fuel this armor creation. Along with the Gift of Sprockets, it will add some supply to the game after this LW passes like a kidney stone and keeps them somewhat cheaper.
Don’t want it ending up like quartz now.

Behellagh.1468:

I throw sprockets away as junk. You mean they are actually worth something?

Who’s going to buy this one knowing the next one is going to be even better?

As someone who payed real money for a molten pick I’m pretty disappointed that there is a new pick better than it.

I wasn’t concerned when the bone pick was released, because the only difference between it and the molten pick is the skin.

I think the best thing to do would be to remove the sprocket chance from the new pick.

And before anyone tells me my pick was 800 gems compared to 1000 for this new pick, realize that there are people who payed 1000 for the bone pick, and that gathering tools went to 1000 when they became account bound.

Either that or let all unlimited picks have a chance to gather the flavor of the month crafting item, whether it’s sprockets, azurite orbs, spores etc.

I’m seriously scratching my head at this move. I understand that this is probably an attempt to keep sprocket prices from ever skyrocketing beyond the rational (and a good attempt at that), but it is completely unfair to previous customers given the price point is the exact same as previous account bound infinite picks. What they SHOULD do is sell a pick upgrade accessory for a couple hundred gems that can add sprocket mining functionality to any infinite pick.

Jabberwock.9014:

I’m seriously scratching my head at this move. I understand that this is probably an attempt to keep sprocket prices from ever skyrocketing beyond the rational (and a good attempt at that), but it is completely unfair to previous customers given the price point is the exact same as previous account bound infinite picks. What they SHOULD do is sell a pick upgrade accessory for a couple hundred gems that can add sprocket mining functionality to any infinite pick.

This idea I actually like, 200-300 gems to add the functionality to one of your tools, would let players use the skins they like most, and still keep the functionality of the new items if they CHOOSE to get them. Instead of having to buy a fully new pick if they want to just get the sprockets or whatever new flavour of the month is.

Behellagh.1468:

No you didn’t. Account bound, not soul bound, gather tools are 1000 gems. The soul bound ones were 800 gems.

Then someone should start another thread … I upgraded my 800 gem soulbound tools to accountbound ones via an NPC near the LA TP.

I’m still in support of a 200 gem upgrade to make ANY infinite mining pick have a chance to drop sprockets.

What about those who already paid 1000 gems for the Bone Pick or the Molten Pick back when they first became account bound?

Waar Kijk Je Naar.8713:

Irrelevant.

With 55G you can buy 137500 normal pickaxes (1375 “stacks”). Assuming you use them all on Orichalcum ores and a (trade post) profit of 3,5 silver per ore, this would get you roughly 4757,5 (4812,5-55) gold, not counting any jewels you might find during mining.

With the 20% chance of sprockets, mining 137500 times would get you 27500 sprockets. Assuming a profit per sprocket of 45c (in between current price of 40-57, minus TP tax), these would make you 123,75 gold. The new pickaxe is 25% more expensive than the MAMP, which if the gem/gold rate is still the same would equal to 68,75 gold.

4812,5+123,75-68,75 = 4867,5 gold after 137500 uses. Roughly 2,3% more than with normal pickaxes or a MAMP, still not counting any jewels found during mining.
As the investment costs are higher and most people are unlikely to mine even 50000 times, buying the new pickaxe seems dumb and you should be happy you didn’t waste money on it.

That said, just buying normal picks seems still the best option, though a little less convenient.

People don’t realize this when they cry: “Pay-to-win item!”. It’s not like you’re making any money on getting these picks.

I’ve bought both unbreakable pick axes so far and intend to buy the third. I love these things.

Zaxares.5419:

What about those who already paid 1000 gems for the Bone Pick or the Molten Pick back when they first became account bound?

No one ever paid 1000 gems for the molten pick.

True, they got grandfathered in as account bound “if” you went to see the guy that unbound them.

I really wonder if you do the same for example with computer hardware ? You just bought a new video card from ATI or NVidia, and 3 months later the bring out a new better modell. Do you run to your computer dealer and expect he exchanges your old against a new ?

Have to try that out with my old HD 6870 i think

When people bought the original tools, did the note say that they would never release a better version? If so, then you should definitely be upset. But I’m guessing they didn’t. The store is looking for new ways to entice people to buy things, and I think this was a clever and subtle upgrade. Your old tools still do exactly what they always said they would when you bought them.

cool what about T3 and flamekissed incident?

Yay! Finally the casual players with more money than time can also be competitive in the game! You can already P2W just by converting gems to gold.

Beldin.5498:

I really wonder if you do the same for example with computer hardware ? You just bought a new video card from ATI or NVidia, and 3 months later the bring out a new better modell. Do you run to your computer dealer and expect he exchanges your old against a new ?

Yes?

Jabberwock.9014:

I’m seriously scratching my head at this move. I understand that this is probably an attempt to keep sprocket prices from ever skyrocketing beyond the rational (and a good attempt at that), but it is completely unfair to previous customers given the price point is the exact same as previous account bound infinite picks. What they SHOULD do is sell a pick upgrade accessory for a couple hundred gems that can add sprocket mining functionality to any infinite pick.

except there’s only like 11 uses for sprockets. 2 will never be used, 3 are once-per-account type things, and the rest are rarely used. Unless they plan on releasing a wave of recipes, watchwork sprockets will sink to 2c on the TP. the home instance node was already slightly overkill. adding to a pick is simply doomsday. notice the trend: http://www.gw2spidy.com/item/44941. that is expected to reach zero in about 3-4 weeks.
Watchwork Mechanism -> zealoth’s insignia or inscription
Runes of Exuberance
Sigils of Malice
Portal Devices
Sigils of Bursting
Exquisite Watchwork Sprocket
Runes of Tormenting
Runes of Perplexity
Sigils of Renewal

I can agree with the pick upgrade idea – especially if there were several to choose from and you had to select one. sorta like finishers but with pick bonuses.

The runes and sigils take 250 sprockets each, and are all very popular, so I could have seen sprockets going sky high. Now I never see them going too high, but I doubt they’ll be less than 30c once Scarletopia is over.

They almost hit 1 silver each before the Marionette showed up.

Yeah, it was kitten difficult to make a profit off the products (Mystic listed) at that time. I’m glad they are coming down in price.

I agree this is very unkewl

Jabberwock.9014:

I’m seriously scratching my head at this move. I understand that this is probably an attempt to keep sprocket prices from ever skyrocketing beyond the rational (and a good attempt at that), but it is completely unfair to previous customers given the price point is the exact same as previous account bound infinite picks. What they SHOULD do is sell a pick upgrade accessory for a couple hundred gems that can add sprocket mining functionality to any infinite pick.

I realize this thread is geriatric in forum time (3 days) but I am posting anyway. I like this idea a lot. This idea is fair to the consumer while maintaining the flexibility of the producer to bring new products onto the market. This idea could also be transitioned to without causing too much noise.

I do not think this new pick is P2W but it is certainly vertical progression within the gem shop.

That sucks, but its your fault for thinking your purchase will disqualify anet from releasing new and improved ones. They are a business and it isnt their job to be nice.

Yeah, and nVidia should refund my graphics card because 3 weeks later they brought out a better version!

/sarcasm

Imperatora.7654:

Yeah, and nVidia should refund my graphics card because 3 weeks later they brought out a better version!

/sarcasm

um way to compare apples to hand grenades? I bet you also compare downloading music off of the internet to stealing your neighbors car?

Imperatora.7654:

Yeah, and nVidia should refund my graphics card because 3 weeks later they brought out a better version!

Copy-paste:

Lishtenbird.2814:

I remember the “Last pick you’ll ever need!” slogan. No, the smartphone analogy isn’t viable because a game is not real world where you have virtually limited resources and the money you spend today is what makes it possible to develop the next generation item. In a game, it’s a Word of God and a couple of clicks to introduce a new material or to alter supply (and demand). So the “generic smartphone analogy” is a neat but shallow argument which is based on the false assumption that real-world economy is identical to game-world economy.

Could you explain why it’s comparing apples to oranges? Seems like a perfectly valid analogy to me. I don’t see the relevancy of the distinction real-virtual, or forever usable – wear&tear.

dAcIaW.5107:

Imperatora.7654:

Yeah, and nVidia should refund my graphics card because 3 weeks later they brought out a better version!

/sarcasm

um way to compare apples to hand grenades? I bet you also compare downloading music off of the internet to stealing your neighbors car?

no, but I do compare that comeback to a strawman

totell the truth they should remove the ability to get sprockets and offer a refund to people that aren t satisfied.

Despite i agree with the fact they should not remove stuff from people who already bought, it would be called coherence with what they did to flamekissed…

Unfortunately the case is the same…

On average it’s a whole 6-8c per node. Now everyone who bought infinite use picks and other gathering tools have told those who did the math and says the ROI is over 7 years that it’s a convenience item and the calculating equivalent number of Orr picks isn’t important.

But now the ROI is 11% less because it spits out a tiny amount of money it’s suddenly all about ROI. Oh noes, that pick could make maybe an addition 1-2g per year of mats, compared to the 20-25g if you mine just copper that it’s totally unfair.

So you spent 800 gold converted gems versus 1000 gems, likely less gold per 100 than it is now, had it converted for free into an account bound item, maybe gem rebates on duplicate picks, have use of the pick for some amount of time already yet are upset because over a year you might make an additional gold or two over an entire year with this new tool. And you call it pay to win.

Not seeing it mate. A slightly more economical tool (if you do ROI) that costs 25% more gems, when gold to gem conversion rate nearly triple of what you likely paid and it’s unfair?

First, where does the 6-8 copper come from. Last time I checked these babies were 30-40 copper, the week before that 1 silver. In1 year, prolly 10 silver each. On reddit, the current consensus is a 30% chance of a sprocket each time you swing your P2W pick.

Second, more importantly, it’s bad business to power-creep out your paying customers.

DarcShriek.5829:

Zaxares.5419:

What about those who already paid 1000 gems for the Bone Pick or the Molten Pick back when they first became account bound?

No one ever paid 1000 gems for the molten pick.

but some did for the bone pick, still relevant.

The listing I saw was 20% not 30%. Currently they are around 35-45c each. 20% of that and then deduct the TP fees and I generously say it’s 6-8c. Even if it jumps back up to a silver then it’s an awesome 17c per node on average. So how many nodes do you hit every day? If enough to get the Daily Gather then it’s 7 which means about 1.2s per day which is what, 3-4 copper ores?

So currently is around 81g worth of gems so it’ll pay itself off in 2-3 years at 1s per sprocket.

The guy that started the initial 20% myth on reddit corrected himself later on, also on reddit. So, as one node consists of 3 swings, that’s one every node. Which means 36 copper every node. And that price will be 30 fold next year.

But by all means step over the “more importantly” comment I also made. You know, the one about power-creeping out your paying customers.

If you and everyone are so sure sprockets will rise in price, why isnt there already rampant speculation, driving up the price?
Hint: Sprockets aren’t that useful.

People who have done the calculations know that buying any of the unlimited pick is not worth it in terms of gold, but only in terms of personal convenience. Yes, even with the sprockets. That means converting those gems into gold right away would cause more impact to the economy than the extra sprockets from those picks over a period of years.

Doctor Orderly MD PhD DDS.7625:

If you and everyone are so sure sprockets will rise in price, why isnt there already rampant speculation, driving up the price?
Hint: Sprockets aren’t that useful.

Not only that, but these picks will insure that the market is flooded with them so the price will never amount to much.

DarcShriek.5829:

Doctor Orderly MD PhD DDS.7625:

If you and everyone are so sure sprockets will rise in price, why isnt there already rampant speculation, driving up the price?
Hint: Sprockets aren’t that useful.

Not only that, but these picks will insure that the market is flooded with them so the price will never amount to much.

Sprocket value was never the major issue. Its a step in a different direction. Also thanks to this, earlier version of picks are no longer BiS and they were advertised as such.

MikeyGrey.2496:

DarcShriek.5829:

Doctor Orderly MD PhD DDS.7625:

If you and everyone are so sure sprockets will rise in price, why isnt there already rampant speculation, driving up the price?
Hint: Sprockets aren’t that useful.

Not only that, but these picks will insure that the market is flooded with them so the price will never amount to much.

Sprocket value was never the major issue. Its a step in a different direction. Also thanks to this, earlier version of picks are no longer BiS and they were advertised as such.

If the Watchwork pick does not get bonus ores, then it is actually the WORST in slot pick. I’m at 1000 pick attempts without a single bonus ore so far. More testing tonight.

Note, I am not talking about bonus pick attempts, but bonus ores. As in, I swing my pick one time and one ore is added, then one more ore is added.