Guild Wars 2

I just saw this message: “Leaving Soon: Minis 3-Pack Set 1” and that was what eventually triggered this post, however I did already address it in other topics.

One of the worst things that we have been seeing in GW2 is the introducing of limited time aivilible content, no mather if that where the living story or the gem-store items.

Now in stead of stopping with that bad F2P tactic you guys are also removing the ones that where permanent.

Why is it that of all changes made in GW2 since release 10% has been for the good and 90% have been for the bad.

Well let me answer my own question.. because this game started pretty much as a B2P game and became more and more a F2P game. Yes you still buy the game but that by itself does not make it a B2P game, just like we say WoW a sub-based game. It has to do with what business model the company uses (not just if you buy a game or not).

One of the main reasons (for me) to buy GW2 is because it was a B2P game and it proved to be loyal with that in GW1. GW1 was not my game but the business model has always had my attention. Now ever since release of GW2 this game because more more more F2P and many of the bad changes in the game can be directly linked to that business model just like removing these mini’s now.

From a game viewpoint (is it good for the game?) there is not 1 good excuse to remove them. From a F2P payment model viewpoint however it makes a lot of sense. They hope people will buy them now and they will bring this set back later available for a limited time “his is your last chance to buy the 3-pack booster outside of limited special event sales.” so they should also bring up more. Or at least that is what they hope. They hope that they can trick (yes that what it is) people into buying it.

I will never buy any gem for money because that obviously provokes bad behavior for the financial team behind GW2 (and probably any other game). In that way cash-shops seem to be kryptonite for games.

So I would like to ask Anet to please change there business model from a F2P model that focuses on cash-shop income back to a B2P game that focuses on expansions for income. That should also solve most of the problems in the games. I could address all those bad changes (like time-gates / temporary content) but most of them will simply resolve eventually when moving to a B2P model. Bring all temporary stuff permanently back and focus on qualitative good expansion for income.

Players who do see many of these problems should also be aware for the reason. Buying gems to get that limited available items will not help you because there will be some new item a few weeks from now you want. If you like to collect them all best is to not collect any of them as that is the only way GW2 might become a good B2P game without the bad influence of the F2P payment model.

You do know they have to make money right? If people are not spending as much they almost have to change the cash shop so they spend. People don’t like to spend money so they have to do limited time offers.

Huh.. so seeing a gem store purchase that, by your own admission has been in the game since like the start, is being taken out of sale you felt compelled to whine about the business model of the game.
If this was so important an item to you, then you have had plenty of time to buy it… kinda like going into a shop in January seeing something you like then coming back in December to find its no longer on sale…..

You forget, this isn’t a game to ANET its a business and one that is required to find revenue streams… so things come and things go and things can change at the drop of the hat.
Some MMO that have gone F2P leave everything in the shop but as now stuff comes in the pages become cluttered and players don’t like to have to wade through endless lists of stuff to get to where they want.
Whether you like it or not F2P is the the platform that drives GW2.. we want content and we want fluff.. expansions are longer time scale workings and to do that requires the game to keep churning a profit out… somewhere (soon I hope) I guess an expansion will be forthcoming in the meantime to keep us all happy they have promised quick turnaround content patching and so far they have kept their word, buggy as it may be most of the time, but imagine GW2 if it kept the same tradional content turnaround… 3-6 months – with new MMO’s, expansions etc coming out all around them they need carrots to dangle in front of us so refreshing gemstore and LS patches are how they choose to do it until such a time as they push out something bigger.

Remember, either way no one is forcing you to spend money on gems or gemstore items but your view on F2P is your own and I don’t share it… and I still an avid monthly subber in the same MMO I have played since beta many,many moons ago.
You bought GW2 knowing that aside from the boxsale there would be a gemstore to purchase stuff.. who are you to now suddenly demand ANET do as you say anyway.

As I said when I talked about the 2nd pet set, likely the income from the first set has slowed considerably thus the 2nd set.

And now by sunsetting the 1st set they 1) “introduce” a now limited time item to encourage those still collecting them to hurry up and 2) encourage the idea that they are an investment to sell on the TP to those players who didn’t hurry up enough. Either way it’ll boost sales and likely cash for gems in a mad scramble to “catch ’em all”/stock up.

As it is right now there are less than 40 minis that are worth more than price in gold for 100 Gems however prices are starting to rise on all group 1 minis.

It’s beanie babies all over again!!

I wasn’t aware you need minis to play this game.

I hope I can do Arah or Tequatl with the minis I got without gems.

you realize this game is b2p not f2p right?

i believe you mean sub2p?

Wait, how exactly do mini’s which do absolutely nothing other than run around your feet have any bearing on the actual game?

The game is B2P, you can get EVERY single bit of content in the game for in game gold. Yes its true you can. There is NOTHING in the gem store that actively forces you to purchase it to progress content. There is nothing in the gem store you cannot get by simply playing the game.

How is this in anyway related to a F2P model which actively requires you to purchase content to progress your class, or purchase access to BiS gear, or require you to purchase accesss to level up beyond an arbitrary level, or that requires you to purchase different “races” just to change character type?

In short it doesnt have any relation whatsoever to F2P.

Look here, “dood” (hehe), you don’t need to purchase anything from Gem store to look awesome… Take me for instance.

Lexandro.1456:

The game is B2P, you can get EVERY single bit of content in the game for in game gold. Yes its true you can. There is NOTHING in the gem store that actively forces you to purchase it to progress content. There is nothing in the gem store you cannot get by simply playing the game.

Okaaaay… can you point me to where the unlimited continue coin drops from? …other than from gems? That, is a content item, not something to just pretty up your pixelated character with.

Though GW2 is not an “F2P”, they certainly do seem to be shifting towards a reliance on the sale of gems over releasing a paid expansion. Where is mention of an expansion? That was how they were going to make money as a B2P, right? Or is that from gems now? That is something that f2p’s rely on. Most mmo’s have mention of the coming expansion by first year end. So, the OP is just sensing what a lot of people are.

Xcom.1926:

You do know they have to make money right? If people are not spending as much they almost have to change the cash shop so they spend. People don’t like to spend money so they have to do limited time offers.

Yes, as you could have read in my post I say they should make money with a B2P model. That means a focus on box-sales and that includes the sales of expansions.

They do not have to limit item items to get people to buy if there focus for income is not a F2P model but a B2P model so the main income will come from expansions.

Devata.6589:

They do not have to limit item items to get people to buy if there focus for income is not a F2P model but a B2P model so the main income will come from expansions.

1) I don’t like that minis are going away
2) So release paid expansions instead of giving us free content

I don’t see how these things are related? Even if they sell you a boxed expansion, they still won’t give you the minis for free. And if you just took your $15/month or whatever, bought gems, and converted to gold, you could have the minis and plenty left over.

Bloodstealer.5978:

Huh.. so seeing a gem store purchase that, by your own admission has been in the game since like the start, is being taken out of sale you felt compelled to whine about the business model of the game.
If this was so important an item to you, then you have had plenty of time to buy it… kinda like going into a shop in January seeing something you like then coming back in December to find its no longer on sale…..

You forget, this isn’t a game to ANET its a business and one that is required to find revenue streams… so things come and things go and things can change at the drop of the hat.
Some MMO that have gone F2P leave everything in the shop but as now stuff comes in the pages become cluttered and players don’t like to have to wade through endless lists of stuff to get to where they want.
Whether you like it or not F2P is the the platform that drives GW2.. we want content and we want fluff.. expansions are longer time scale workings and to do that requires the game to keep churning a profit out… somewhere (soon I hope) I guess an expansion will be forthcoming in the meantime to keep us all happy they have promised quick turnaround content patching and so far they have kept their word, buggy as it may be most of the time, but imagine GW2 if it kept the same tradional content turnaround… 3-6 months – with new MMO’s, expansions etc coming out all around them they need carrots to dangle in front of us so refreshing gemstore and LS patches are how they choose to do it until such a time as they push out something bigger.

Remember, either way no one is forcing you to spend money on gems or gemstore items but your view on F2P is your own and I don’t share it… and I still an avid monthly subber in the same MMO I have played since beta many,many moons ago.
You bought GW2 knowing that aside from the boxsale there would be a gemstore to purchase stuff.. who are you to now suddenly demand ANET do as you say anyway.

First of all it’s not whining. Your reactions on my topics comes closer to whining if you ask me.

No it’s not this one thing they take away it’s the many things they have been doing and now they also start removing the good things.. as it was good because it was permanent.

This is not a normal shop. Normal shops will keep the product until it is sold out but digital items are never sold out.

“You forget, this isn’t a game to ANET its a business and one that is required to find revenue streams…” Where do I forget that. Pretty sure it’s the whole thing I talk about. And I say they use the wrong business model for there business. They use a F2P business model while they should be using a B2P business model.
“players don’t like to have to wade through endless lists of stuff to get to where they want.” thats the worse excuse I have ever seen. Then make a filter for those people.. Filter on items added in the last months, 3 months, half year, year. There you go, easy solution for your excuse to remove items.

“who are you to now suddenly demand ANET do as you say anyway.” You may call me Devata and I am telling (or as you like demanding) this ever since the F2P model became more obvious. Yes I know they had a gem-store and that by itself is no problem. I also know they ask money for there product making it seem to be a B2P product. The business model they became big with.

And for the record.. they where not planning an expansion (thats because they get there money in another way), after many complains they are now reconsidering it but to be honest, it would be pretty rude if they continue with this F2P focus on the gem-store and also ask money for an expansion so if they keep doing this they might as well keep to there plan to never have an expansion. But I would prefer switching focus from the cash-shop to expansions as income and then I would have no problem paying for that expansion.

DusK.3849:

I wasn’t aware you need minis to play this game.

I hope I can do Arah or Tequatl with the minis I got without gems.

Hmm I wasn’t aware I (or anybody else) did say that they are required. But if you make the conclusion I did say that then I make my sincerest apologies for that. No, minis are not required to play this game. Nor are weapon-skins and many other items in the gem-store.

And even better, it has nothing to do with the matter of the subject.

Funny the topic has been moved to Black Lion Trading Co because it would better fit the subject. While related it for sure does not better fit this subject. Reason might be that less people get into this sub-thread. Please move it back. It does not belong here, the discussion about the payment model (subject of this topic) does belong in the discussion section, not in a sub-thread thats part of the F2P model.

Ping.5739:

you realize this game is b2p not f2p right?

i believe you mean sub2p?

I already give answer in my first post on this reaction because I knew it would come. The fact that you buy this game does not make it a B2P game meaning it use a B2P business model. The game at this moment uses a F2P business model but you are also required to buy it.

Just like WoW uses the P2P business model but also requires you to buy the game. People don’t say WoW is a B2P game they say it’s a P2P game.

Lexandro.1456:

Wait, how exactly do mini’s which do absolutely nothing other than run around your feet have any bearing on the actual game?

The game is B2P, you can get EVERY single bit of content in the game for in game gold. Yes its true you can. There is NOTHING in the gem store that actively forces you to purchase it to progress content. There is nothing in the gem store you cannot get by simply playing the game.

How is this in anyway related to a F2P model which actively requires you to purchase content to progress your class, or purchase access to BiS gear, or require you to purchase accesss to level up beyond an arbitrary level, or that requires you to purchase different “races” just to change character type?

In short it doesnt have any relation whatsoever to F2P.

I already answered this in my last reaction and in the original topic but will be more specific to your question here. A F2P model means your main income comes from the cash-shop. A P2P model means your main income comes from subscription and a B2P model means your main income comes from box-sales (the original game and expansions).

The idea that a game is only F2P if it’s basically is B2W (your explanation in short) is flawed. Many F2P games are B2W but that by itself does not make it F2P. Where the main income comes from and so where the company puts it focus makes the business-model.

There business if focus around… makes business-model.

GW2 has it focus now on the cash-shop, you can also see that in many ways and so this game uses a F2P business model. The name F2P is simply evolved that way because games that are free to play nearly always try to make there money with the cash-shop but it’s just a name. The fact that you buy a game does not make the business model not focusing on cash-shop… so being the F2P business model.

So in short. GW2 uses a f2p business model but next to that they also ask money to buy the game.

Simon.3106:

Look here, “dood” (hehe), you don’t need to purchase anything from Gem store to look awesome… Take me for instance.

I seem to have been saying thinks I can remember. Some other guy said mini’s are not required you say you don’t need to buy items and yet I can not remember saying any of those things.

The admin seems to thinks it has something to do with the black lion trading company.

Time to go to bed and make a clearer topic tomorrow.

timmyf.1490:

Devata.6589:

They do not have to limit item items to get people to buy if there focus for income is not a F2P model but a B2P model so the main income will come from expansions.

1) I don’t like that minis are going away
2) So release paid expansions instead of giving us free content

I don’t see how these things are related? Even if they sell you a boxed expansion, they still won’t give you the minis for free. And if you just took your $15/month or whatever, bought gems, and converted to gold, you could have the minis and plenty left over.

“And if you just took your $15/month or whatever, bought gems, and converted to gold, you could have the minis and plenty left over.” and now here is somebody who seems to think I am asking for a P2P model. Really time to go to bed and rewrite it tomorrow.

But to answer the question how it is related. Well it’s not “not liking that they go away” it’s “me not liking what the F2P model does, and part of that is taking this away”.

When they got money with expansion they might indeed give them for free.. well I would have paid for them with the expansion (nothing is free) and you would be able to collect them from the world. But it’s the model thats the problem (I do not like what is does to the game) and that same model is the reason they take away that mini-pack. Just as it’s that same model that can be blamed for time-gated contend, temporary content, P2W items like the infinite continue coin, temporary available items, presents for gem-buyers and so on.

And thats what this topic was about. I tent to take one example to build my topic around but that does not seem to work here so much.

Devata.6589:

I will never buy any gem for money because that obviously provokes bad behavior for the financial team behind GW2 (and probably any other game). In that way cash-shops seem to be kryptonite for games.

1/ GW2 was made partly because the B2P expansion model for GW1 didn’t work on the long term
2/ GW2 was always marketed to have a cash shop, to NEED that cash shop to sustain

There’s no false advertisement.

As for the minis … ye that’s a bit sad and I don’t know why they have to leave.

But what’s really kryptonite for games is simple … no paying customers. People need to be buying gems of the game won’t exist anymore in a short while. I have absolutely no problem with that. I want to be paid too for my work.

If everyone had your attitude of never paying money … games would not exist, end of thread.
So GW2 uses the modern approach of only offering optional and cosmetic stuff. Minis are worthless additions, they don’t do anything inside the game. As such, they make for perfect mini transaction fodder because I can buy them without pay2win and support the company making an awesome game.

B2P model isn’t sustainable.
- over time, regardless of expansions, fewer people play a game, since they get bored, newer games with better gfx come out, etc. Also, older games pick up fewer new users than newer games.
= over time, sales of expansions will be less and less with each release.

- B2P puts a cap on how much players can spend. If you pay $50 for an expansion and get all content, then some rich guy who might have spent $300 doesn’t end up spending that much. On the reverse side, someone who only wanted half the new content and only wanted to spend $25 won’t buy your expansion.
= by taking away flexibility, players who would have spent more won’t get the chance, and players who want to spend less don’t either. Which means less sales, less profit, less development, less survival.

Thus i support micro transactions because people who like to pay for cosmetic content can help fund the game for people like me who don’t care

Devata.6589:

Lexandro.1456:

Wait, how exactly do mini’s which do absolutely nothing other than run around your feet have any bearing on the actual game?

The game is B2P, you can get EVERY single bit of content in the game for in game gold. Yes its true you can. There is NOTHING in the gem store that actively forces you to purchase it to progress content. There is nothing in the gem store you cannot get by simply playing the game.

How is this in anyway related to a F2P model which actively requires you to purchase content to progress your class, or purchase access to BiS gear, or require you to purchase accesss to level up beyond an arbitrary level, or that requires you to purchase different “races” just to change character type?

In short it doesnt have any relation whatsoever to F2P.

I already answered this in my last reaction and in the original topic but will be more specific to your question here. A F2P model means your main income comes from the cash-shop. A P2P model means your main income comes from subscription and a B2P model means your main income comes from box-sales (the original game and expansions).

The idea that a game is only F2P if it’s basically is B2W (your explanation in short) is flawed. Many F2P games are B2W but that by itself does not make it F2P. Where the main income comes from and so where the company puts it focus makes the business-model.

There business if focus around… makes business-model.

GW2 has it focus now on the cash-shop, you can also see that in many ways and so this game uses a F2P business model. The name F2P is simply evolved that way because games that are free to play nearly always try to make there money with the cash-shop but it’s just a name. The fact that you buy a game does not make the business model not focusing on cash-shop… so being the F2P business model.

So in short. GW2 uses a f2p business model but next to that they also ask money to buy the game.

You have missed the point completely imo.

B2P has a box sale focus.. but that model is unsustainable as demand falls off a cliff sooner rather than later. Anet never stated that this game was going to be modelled purely on box sales but has always stated it would include a cash shop, whether that be for gems or for items.
F2P and B2P have very similar modelling as both require additional revenue streams to continue to fund its expansion and actual existence.. it is irrelevant if they now want to focus on a future expansion, tbh I think any MMO gamer would realise the game would have to have one at some point in time…. the game will begin to look dated so a fresh coat of paint some new bells and whistles and a nice large wad of content does wonders in this respect.. but to do it takes time and money, lots of money…
You think box sales make enough to repay the shareholders, the company, the employees, the third parties, taxes, fuel, electricity, the tea lady…. no it helps to pay back its initial investment and hopefully a tidy wedge of profit.. but then the game has to stand on its own two feet.. cash shop is how they choose to do it and a cash shop needs refreshing as well.

Why is F2P = BTW… explain your point, cos honestly I think your firing blanks and have no real understanding of what it is your actually arguing about.. its all sounds like mom took the credit card away and now ya gotta work for toys and sweets and your simply being a F2P hater.
What is ANET selling in there cash shop that makes it a B2W.. mini’s, boosts, bank tabs or just the other fluff.. and in case you forget ANET only dangles the carrots its for you to decide whether you want to buy it or not.

I bought the game around 2 weeks ago.

I know this game does not have a subscription, but I will be spending the equivalent of one, in store purchases. I think its only fair to support a game that is providing you with many hours of fun and entertainment.

Honestly I hate cheapskate people who do not value other people’s work.

Anet doesn’t care if you can’t afford to buy stuff in the shop with in-game gold.

Daywolf.2630:

Lexandro.1456:

The game is B2P, you can get EVERY single bit of content in the game for in game gold. Yes its true you can. There is NOTHING in the gem store that actively forces you to purchase it to progress content. There is nothing in the gem store you cannot get by simply playing the game.

Okaaaay… can you point me to where the unlimited continue coin drops from? …other than from gems? That, is a content item, not something to just pretty up your pixelated character with.

Though GW2 is not an “F2P”, they certainly do seem to be shifting towards a reliance on the sale of gems over releasing a paid expansion. Where is mention of an expansion? That was how they were going to make money as a B2P, right? Or is that from gems now? That is something that f2p’s rely on. Most mmo’s have mention of the coming expansion by first year end. So, the OP is just sensing what a lot of people are.

Your ‘unlimited continue coin’ argument would only have merit if continue coins were not available in-game.

Hi! I’m one of those people who chooses to spend my gaming dollars on things like the gem store, to get cool-looking things while supporting the game I love. I buy Black Lion Keys, too. Even though I am apparently encouraging Satanism. I love this model. It’s not a heavy-handed commercial for subscription, like SWTOR’s ‘f2p,’ and I can spend my money on things I like.

I don’t mind carrying the people who bombastically Boycott The Gem Store; I am gaving fun doing what I do. Carry on with the angst!

Hinging your argument on min-pets and and a convenience item that is used in a mini-game is pretty far from anything important and compelling to a large portion of the player base.

There ARE actual issues that should possibly be examined and questioned when it comes to the financial direction ANet appears to be headed (in terms of content distribution and continued revenue streams), but those examples are not ones the majority of the player base are going to consider grounds for requesting a wholesale change in ANet’s financial policy.

Also, telling someone you will NEVER financially support them (buy gems) and then ask them to revamp their business model is pretty ballsy….

I must admit, I’m a bit confused by the OP.

Is the fear that ANet will focus mainly on gem store content to the detriment of “expansion”-type updates? Or that instead of a few traditional big expansions we’ll be forced to buy a series of small, mediocre updates via microtransactions? Or that ANet will forgo significant new content altogether in favor of LS updates and gem store revenue?

I see no reason to believe that we won’t be getting major, permanent updates to the game at some point, ones that regardless of HOW they’re released (maybe not explicitly called an “expansion pack”, but delivering similar content), we’ll most likely have to pay for. Okay. In this game, I also don’t see much, if any, of the “play2win” sort of items that some other MMO cash shops get flack for introducing. So far it’s all fluff, space-saver/convenience items, and account upgrades such as name changes. It’s too bad if a long-offered mini set gets discontinued and you missed out on getting it (which, BTW, if you saved enough gold, you wouldn’t have to fork over a single dime for). But to me that’s not a game-breaking problem. I like minis fine, but that’s not really why I play this game. And judging by the very few people I’ve seen in game with minis actually deployed, it wouldn’t seem to be a game-breaking problem for many other people, either.

This is not just GW2/ANet trying to screw players over. This is the way that many MMOs have been heading for the past few years. LOTRO went F2P/cash shop a couple of years ago and saw a surge in player numbers, so I wouldn’t exactly say the business model was “kryptonite” for them. And they still release paid expansions on top of that. Even WoW, which still has a subscription model, has offered fluff items such as mounts and mini-pets, as well as name-changes and so forth, for money – and unlike this game, you can’t put in-game gold towards buying them (AFAIK).

I have no problem with ANet making some extra money selling fluff to players who are willing to pay for it. And I also appreciate the fact that I can pay for stuff like name changes, character slots, bank tabs, and so forth with in-game currency. I’ll gladly pay for an expac/major content update whenever it comes out, but in the meantime, I’m glad that they have a revenue stream that enables them to put money towards developing that new content.

DusK.3849:

I wasn’t aware you need minis to play this game.

I hope I can do Arah or Tequatl with the minis I got without gems.

This precisely.