Guild Wars 2

possible solution:
for me would be modifying the tp and loot systems ingame to make it fair for every player and insusceptible to manipulations in order to make some virtual mario coins
- want your shinies? you should earn your kitten by playing and enjoying the actual game simple as that because that should be the reason to play mmorpgs not some wallstreet capitalism simulator

like for example making whole tp work like gw1 material traders
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Material_trader
“Unlike regular merchants, a rare material trader’s stock and price is dependent on the supply and demand of the player base.”
their prices couldn’t be affected by player’s schemes to make money by creating artificial supply and demand, speculations and what not. you could only affect it by selling and buying from them thus it was more close to real demand and real supply and it was much better for average casual players because they couldn’t be exploited for their coins by sneaky tp players and their schemes in such system.
- I realize that would limit the free market thingy but also it would allow anet more control over the whole system towards better experience for average player like for example influencing it from the company side to fix some things that destroy the gw2 experience like failed crafting design (what is this kitten I’ve got maxed cooking and tailoring and can barely make any money with it, so whats the point – thus I turn to tp minigame to get cash)

I know many players will agree with me and also many will disagree (mostly the ones that care only for their profits exploiting their little gold farming slaves that indirectly work for them actually playing the real game)
also I would like to hear John Smith’s and some other developers opinion about this issue, yes not John’s only because it is a huge MMO game as a whole and tp gold wars 2 wallstreet simulator should be only a small part of it and definitely not central.

so you are saying that you playing the TP is negatively impacting your game experience and you are aware that it is negatively impacting your game experience,
but you continue to choose to do it anyway despite easily having the option of just stopping?

my brain hurts

Deja vu all over again…

I’ll counter your whole argument based on a single flaw I see: You choose not to play the game for fun.

There’s PvE, SPvP, and WvW within this game. If you feel that you’ve done everything PvE has to offer, try a different way to play. If player vs player isn’t your thing, then you can move on to a different game until new content is released. This game will be here when you come back.

As for the social aspect of this game, it’s not Anet’s job to give you friends. You should go out and meet new people yourself. If you have an active guild, or participate with community based groups, redoing the same content can be fun. Doing jumping puzzles with 100 other people on Team Speak, or killing Tequatl with only ranged weapons, or seeing who can survive the longest without armor.

As for comparing GW2 to Diablo III’s market. I’m stopping you right there. D3 RMAH was a complete failure. The whole reason why people focused on that was because you could actually make real money. Why play the game for fun, when you can earn tax free dollars via virtual goods? With GW2’s system, you can buy Gems with real money, but the exchange rates to Gold weren’t so good that you could reliably buy Legendaries at the drop of a creditcard. Gems are mostly used to get Gem Store stuff. Very few people would actually buy Gems for the sole purpose of converting.

Players can’t artificially create supply unless you are implying a De Beers situation where supply is controlled by a few. But since item supply is random (unless we are talking crafted items) such a cartel simply can’t control a market (on a specific item) the way you believe they are.

Does it not occur to others that the high bid/low sell price of a low velocity item like precursors, ticket skins and legendaries are the prices nobody is willing to pay and that the actual transaction price is always inside this range? Both tracking sites I’m aware of sample too infrequently to guarantee detecting an item that lasts only for a short time on the TP before it’s snapped up.

wwfam.2495:

so you are saying that you playing the TP is negatively impacting your game experience and you are aware that it is negatively impacting your game experience,
but you continue to choose to do it anyway despite easily having the option of just stopping?
my brain hurts

you missed the whole point of my posts
only thing thats left for me is for example getting some legendaries but why getting them by actual gameplay earning lets say 5-30g an hour (out of lets say 3k) while I can get them by doing literally NOTHING (well obviously apart from placing some orders etc), while others do hard work to get them…and also some of these people playing the game working slowly towards their goals are doing slave work for me and help me achieve my goals because I exploit their hard earned loots to generate profit flip their stuff for profit etc….wonders of capitalism eh

@behellagh
what I meant with artificial demand/supply is a situation where people create/influence market not to actually get some stuff use it in gameplay etc but for the sole purpose of TP profits – for example flippers and speculators selling/buying stuff to/from other flippers speculators

@smoothpenguin
that diablo3 was just a quick example I found on the net to supply an argument how capitalism minigames destroy real mmo fun because I found it perfect, especially what d3 devs said about farming AH instead of farming monsters to achieve your ingame goals

and regarding other stuff you said I have a guild and plenty of friends and I do all the stuff you mentioned but I know for sure that I would play more if the game itself was more rewarding than TP and the shortest ways towards some of my goals involved gameplay and I couldnt shortcut them by playing the TP – thats the problem here for me the ingame profits gap between actual gameplay and smart TP playing is too big.

Wikie.2610:

wwfam.2495:

so you are saying that you playing the TP is negatively impacting your game experience and you are aware that it is negatively impacting your game experience,
but you continue to choose to do it anyway despite easily having the option of just stopping?
my brain hurts

you missed the whole point of my posts
only thing thats left for me is for example getting some legendaries but why getting them by actual gameplay earning lets say 5-30g an hour (out of lets say 3k) while I can get them by doing literally NOTHING (well obviously apart from placing some orders etc), while others do hard work to get them…and also some of these people playing the game working slowly towards their goals are doing slave work for me and help me achieve my goals because I exploit their hard earned loots to generate profit flip their stuff for profit etc….wonders of capitalism eh

because ‘actual gameplay’ might be fun? fun is a pretty good reason to do something in this game

Wikie.2610:

@smoothpenguin
that diablo3 was just a quick example I found on the net to supply an argument how capitalism minigames destroy real mmo fun because I found it perfect, especially what d3 devs said about farming AH instead of farming monsters to achieve your ingame goals

and regarding other stuff you said I have a guild and plenty of friends and I do all the stuff you mentioned but I know for sure that I would play more if the game itself was more rewarding than TP and the shortest ways towards some of my goals involved gameplay and I couldnt shortcut them by playing the TP – thats the problem here for me the ingame profits gap between actual gameplay and smart TP playing is too big.

I hear what your argument is, but a couple of things you need to understand.

1) You cannot support your argument by using an example that doesn’t apply. D3’s RMAH failed yes, but not for the reasons you’re thinking of. People focused on that to make real life money. You could buy and sell in game items for money. There was more incentive to play the market there.

2) You make the choice to short cut the process in this game, which also takes away the fun of obtaining these items the old fashioned way. If you’re complaining about not having fun, yet you make the choice not to have fun, where is the real source of your issues?

By all means, play the game the way you want to. But if you make the conscious choice to shortcut your goals, even if the game allows you do so, you give up all rights to complain about not doing content.

Note – this all can change depending on what your in game goals are, of course. If you don’t care about content and fun, and only care about shinies, then stand by the TP for 2 hours and trade. Most players have the same mindset where all they want is stuff here and now. Don’t forget that with the TP, the shinies that you seek came from doing the content you skipped.

@wwfam
again and again you missed the point in my topic wwfam I dont question the fun part of it just the fact that fun things arent as rewarding as boring tp maths minigame in gw2 – so I do the stuff other players do for my share of fun but still I’m ahead of some of them in terms of ingame rewards because I exploit their fun for my profit by means of tp and the fact that some arent as good with it as others
get it?

@smoothpenguin
yeah I get all you’re saying and you are right, however I still find this wrong how this game is so focused on tp and gem store and not on dungeons and dragons and the shortest way to get to some material goals in the game are through those means not by actual ingame work or lucky drops back in the gw1 days (and in some other games I play/played) I felt happy when I dropped a rare shiney and it always meant something even tho I was fairly rich from spamadan trading and that little drop was really a miniscule part of it…and here like 90% of exotics are worth 1g and almost everything in terms of loot feels unrewarding also thanks to anet nerfing farms loots champ bags and so on

Wikie.2610:

@wwfam
again and again you missed the point in my topic wwfam I dont question the fun part of it just the fact that fun things arent as rewarding as boring tp maths minigame in gw2

tell me why an activity being more boring but more rewarding in terms of gold acquisition than another activity that is more fun but pays less gold is a problem in the context where you can just completely ignore the more boring activity

that’s what I don’t get

Wikie.2610:

@wwfam
again and again you missed the point in my topic wwfam I dont question the fun part of it just the fact that fun things arent as rewarding as boring tp maths minigame in gw2 – so I do the stuff other players do for my share of fun but still I’m ahead of some of them in terms of ingame rewards because I exploit their fun for my profit by means of tp and the fact that some arent as good with it as others
get it?

@smoothpenguin
yeah I get all you’re saying and you are right, however I still find this wrong how this game is so focused on tp and gem store and not on dungeons and dragons and the shortest way to get to some material goals in the game are through those means not by actual ingame work or lucky drops back in the gw1 days (and in some other games I play/played) I felt happy when I dropped a rare shiney and it always meant something even tho I was fairly rich from spamadan trading and that little drop was really a miniscule part of it…and here like 90% of exotics are worth 1g and almost everything in terms of loot feels unrewarding also thanks to anet nerfing farms loots champ bags and so on

Just remember that it’s the players themselves who make the TP a focus. If you played the game as it was intended, you’d accumulate wealth the old fashioned way.

The TP just makes it easy to get what you want, and to get rid of what you don’t. If an item dropped with a merch value of 2 Silver, but has a player value of 300 Gold, wouldn’t you be happy to unload it on the TP? On the opposite of that, if you really wanted an item, didn’t want to spend time to farm it, and could afford it from another player, would you buy it?

As a counter argument, for me, casual TP trading nets me enough gold to enjoy the other aspects of the game such as WvW without needing to sit there and farm gold manually through dungeons etc.

yeah obviously penguin you don’t need to state same things over and over again (also count previous tons of topics regarding such issues) in form of rhetorical questions we know answers to but my point stays.

but it also comes down to game design decisions and average player almost never drops anything interesting/rewarding like the 300g thing you mentioned
just look at it almost all ingame loot is merchant/salvage crap and immemorable stuff you just put on tp to get rid of it and earn some quick copper/silver, then theres exotics and most of their runes and sigils are crap and are worth nothing max 1 g because thats the price for 3 ectos, okay thats better 1g is something, then you got these for lets say 10g cause the runes are nice and desired, then theres nothing huge gap and boom precursors worth few hundred to thousand but chance of getting that are next to nothing

in gw1 I felt rewarded for playing every now and then but it was regularly linear every now and then a nice shiney to keep me interested in the game and keep playing/farming
and here my nice rewards over two years consisted of a jetpack and few abyss/celestial dyes and few exos with nice runes so probably not more than 10 memorable things dropped over two years of gaming usually few hours a day at least and rest is completely uninteresting merchant/salvage/to tp for 1g crap
in gw1 I sometimes felt like making some gold just for the sake of it and I went adventuring, exploring or farming something and it was worth it, not as much as trading in kamadan but still worth it, here everything is meh and if it wasnt for fun with friends I wouldn’t do these activities and probably quit long ago but if they aren’t there to play with me I’d rather play tp to get new kicks and shinies than rehash old content I already did plenty of times for a reward thats laughable also add to it no new content and no new dungeons since the start of the game except for fractals and few new fractals after a while that are rehashed version of old living stories dungeons and you also get what I should mention earlier in my rants: why doing same old stuff over and over again if rewards dont matter and tp is more rewarding

Wikie.2610:

possible solution:
for me would be modifying the tp and loot systems ingame to make it fair for every player and insusceptible to manipulations in order to make some virtual mario coins
- want your shinies? you should earn your kitten by playing and enjoying the actual game simple as that because that should be the reason to play mmorpgs not some wallstreet capitalism simulator

“Playing and enjoying the actual game”… so much room for subjectivity here. As far as I know the BLTP is part of the actual game. I enjoy playing it. I’m also happy for these threads, as they give me something to read and laugh at while waiting to put up more items for sale :P.

But in all seriousness, if you don’t like the establishment of the TP, don’t use it. Also, your arguments and suggestions may be marginally more effective if you used proper punctuation and grammar (you may also come off as being less jealous/angered and more constructive).

Some find the TP fun and running around smacking kitten boring. Some people find the opposite fun. Accept it and move on.

The alternative is a pure NPC vendor system where they will buy your goods at some discount of their sell price. I’m sure some clever programmer could come up with an equation to set the sell price based on supply, demand and current gold in the global economy. Something along the lines of the Gem exchange but for each item in the game. Seeded at the vendor price at the start and we can see how many items are driven down to 2c each (only because sell price needs to be higher than buy price).

No TP Barons and either everything is cheap or nobody can afford anything.

Wikie.2610:

many similiar topics been added but I’d like to make a new one since commenting in previous ones would just got lost and I believe I can make some valid points.

firstly my personal experience:
~unconfirmed personal experiences offered as proof of something and references to players on the forum hating on people with his unconfirmed personal experiences~

another example and proof of that:
~some information about other games and their failures with Auction Houses~

I highlighted the things I find central to that linked article and the most important thing is “refocus players away from farming the auction house and onto farming monsters.”

So, to sum up the post:

You are a TP trader/baron.
Players generally get upset when people like you claim a) to have amassed wealth, b) quickly, c) with little effort, and d) in a short time-frame.
Other games with auction houses have had failures in those economies.

Questions:

What exactly is the issue? Are you worried about people being upset with you? Or are you worried that your greed outweighs your desire to do other things in the game and you want someone to make you to stop being greedy?

Your argument has a fallacy:

GW2 doesn’t have an auction house.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

I’ll counter your whole argument based on a single flaw I see: You choose not to play the game for fun.

There’s PvE, SPvP, and WvW within this game. If you feel that you’ve done everything PvE has to offer, try a different way to play. If player vs player isn’t your thing, then you can move on to a different game until new content is released. This game will be here when you come back.

As for the social aspect of this game, it’s not Anet’s job to give you friends. You should go out and meet new people yourself. If you have an active guild, or participate with community based groups, redoing the same content can be fun. Doing jumping puzzles with 100 other people on Team Speak, or killing Tequatl with only ranged weapons, or seeing who can survive the longest without armor.

As for comparing GW2 to Diablo III’s market. I’m stopping you right there. D3 RMAH was a complete failure. The whole reason why people focused on that was because you could actually make real money. Why play the game for fun, when you can earn tax free dollars via virtual goods? With GW2’s system, you can buy Gems with real money, but the exchange rates to Gold weren’t so good that you could reliably buy Legendaries at the drop of a creditcard. Gems are mostly used to get Gem Store stuff. Very few people would actually buy Gems for the sole purpose of converting.

You do realize the got rid of the RMAH first, and then months later got rid of the AH that was entirely gold based. Because it was messing up the game design.

And you are right there a lot of other aspects of the game, all of which reward you poorly, thats really the point. If you have a goal of getting end game stuff, and you are not playing the TP you are wasting your time.
Heres what end game rewards are about, giving you reasons to keep playing the game when you have already reached high level. GW2 endgame rewards are not achieving that because almost anytime you play the game you are being comparitively ineffecient at getting those goals.

simple logic.
If endgame rewards are designed to keep you playing the game
they should give rewards for playing the game.

Now if the TP is your thing, GW2 has an excellent endgame, you can amass mass quanitities gold, which allows you to amass even more money, and play around taking bigger risks for greater reward.

If like most other facets of the game, the endgame rewards dont encourage you to play them.

brittitude.1983:

Wikie.2610:

many similiar topics been added but I’d like to make a new one since commenting in previous ones would just got lost and I believe I can make some valid points.

firstly my personal experience:
~unconfirmed personal experiences offered as proof of something and references to players on the forum hating on people with his unconfirmed personal experiences~

another example and proof of that:
~some information about other games and their failures with Auction Houses~

I highlighted the things I find central to that linked article and the most important thing is “refocus players away from farming the auction house and onto farming monsters.”

So, to sum up the post:

You are a TP trader/baron.
Players generally get upset when people like you claim a) to have amassed wealth, b) quickly, c) with little effort, and d) in a short time-frame.
Other games with auction houses have had failures in those economies.

Questions:

What exactly is the issue? Are you worried about people being upset with you? Or are you worried that your greed outweighs your desire to do other things in the game and you want someone to make you to stop being greedy?

Your argument has a fallacy:

GW2 doesn’t have an auction house.

i think his point is yes, the game is making his greed work against his enjoyment instead of for his enjoyment. And honestly thats the purpose of a good reward structure.

Its why food tastes good, and sex is pleasurable. Reward behavior that is beneficial. End game rewards are supposed to keep people interested in playing, but the current structure makes people not want to play the game.

Behellagh.1468:

The alternative is a pure NPC vendor system where they will buy your goods at some discount of their sell price. I’m sure some clever programmer could come up with an equation to set the sell price based on supply, demand and current gold in the global economy. Something along the lines of the Gem exchange but for each item in the game. Seeded at the vendor price at the start and we can see how many items are driven down to 2c each (only because sell price needs to be higher than buy price).

No TP Barons and either everything is cheap or nobody can afford anything.

they already did it in gw1, and yea, the things that no one wanted were super cheap, and things people wanted were somewhat expensive. But thats basically what we have in GW2 now.
the main difference is, they didnt design the whole reward system so that if you didnt enter the gold earning game you couldnt get much.

sure ectos were expensive, but you could get your own ectos through targeted play2-3 per run. Want rubies? well you can go beat these dunegeons for a pretty good chance at rubies. Want obsidian shards? go play this area. Dont want to do any of that? well then you can earn gold.
See the main difference is you could actually choose to earn/progress through gameplay, and they didnt design the amount of items you needed based or methods of aquisition based on how many junk items they had.

If i decide i want to hunt 250 powerful blood? i will end up with probably 10 times as much things i didnt want on the path to get it. And at the end of the day? it would be substantially faster not to actually do that, but to earn via TP or hardcore farming technique 100.

I mean of course ectoplasm hustlers were still making money and wealth hand over fist, but the game wasnt designed around what they were doing.

Phys gets it and summed up my posts nicely
the endgame rewards suck 90% of time, but theres those few % items I could still want to work towards, but can not because they are usually hidden behind really unpleasant RNG, so I can buy them from TP as Penguin said earlier, thats nice and what not.
but where to get the cash for it? either do stuff that I was already doing for two years nothing new same stuff and rewards suck or I could pull my credit card and buy it with real money…or just play tp a little and watch as my gold rises and stuff falls into my hands, obviously the third option is the best allocation of time, I get best reward for time spent and I can allocate more time towards fun things in game and actual gameplay(which rewards suck but its fun) but thats not how it should be I should want to play the game for rewarding experience throw me a bone here and there to keep me interested instead of making this huge gap where everything is greens and blues and 1g exo once a day and TP minigame with hundreds of gold for grabs for almost none work on the other hand. thats why I feel tp economy and loot/reward systems in the game should be redesigned and parts of gw1s economy could be a thing to learn from.

Wikie.2610:

@wwfam
again and again you missed the point in my topic wwfam I dont question the fun part of it just the fact that fun things arent as rewarding as boring tp maths minigame in gw2 – so I do the stuff other players do for my share of fun but still I’m ahead of some of them in terms of ingame rewards because I exploit their fun for my profit by means of tp and the fact that some arent as good with it as others
get it?

@smoothpenguin
yeah I get all you’re saying and you are right, however I still find this wrong how this game is so focused on tp and gem store and not on dungeons and dragons and the shortest way to get to some material goals in the game are through those means not by actual ingame work or lucky drops back in the gw1 days (and in some other games I play/played) I felt happy when I dropped a rare shiney and it always meant something even tho I was fairly rich from spamadan trading and that little drop was really a miniscule part of it…and here like 90% of exotics are worth 1g and almost everything in terms of loot feels unrewarding also thanks to anet nerfing farms loots champ bags and so on

The TP is a wonderful tool to determine the value of your loot yourself. If you list your items at the same value as the flipper/speculator, you make as much gold as him in the same time. If you sell all your loot to the highest bidder, you actually refuse to get more gold for your loot and shouldnt come complain about it.

Wanze.8410:

Wikie.2610:

@wwfam
again and again you missed the point in my topic wwfam I dont question the fun part of it just the fact that fun things arent as rewarding as boring tp maths minigame in gw2 – so I do the stuff other players do for my share of fun but still I’m ahead of some of them in terms of ingame rewards because I exploit their fun for my profit by means of tp and the fact that some arent as good with it as others
get it?

@smoothpenguin
yeah I get all you’re saying and you are right, however I still find this wrong how this game is so focused on tp and gem store and not on dungeons and dragons and the shortest way to get to some material goals in the game are through those means not by actual ingame work or lucky drops back in the gw1 days (and in some other games I play/played) I felt happy when I dropped a rare shiney and it always meant something even tho I was fairly rich from spamadan trading and that little drop was really a miniscule part of it…and here like 90% of exotics are worth 1g and almost everything in terms of loot feels unrewarding also thanks to anet nerfing farms loots champ bags and so on

The TP is a wonderful tool to determine the value of your loot yourself. If you list your items at the same value as the flipper/speculator, you make as much gold as him in the same time. If you sell all your loot to the highest bidder, you actually refuse to get more gold for your loot and shouldnt come complain about it.

The flipper speculator makes money for transacting, the seller makes money for time/effort. back in the day there was a market ineffeciency with elder wood producing items, turns out i could make money breaking down items and turning elder wood into elderwood planks.
doing it with my own items, i made as much of it as i could find items to salvage.
doing it buy buying from lowest seller, i was able to increase my current wealth by a value in % per hour, up to the velocity and competitor cap.

I think when i had like 120 gold, i was able to make 10 gold an hour off that. And to be honest i was working harder than most flippers, because i actually had to break items down, reform them and sell the results. I would have made money with less effort by simply flipping, but i prefer to get the most bang for my buck, even though it cost me more time.

point is. farmer getting top dollar for his farmed goods isnt the same as a TP player who primarily profits off of transactions. the more transactions the more money you make as a flipper.

phys.7689:

flipper.

Please stop treating that word like it’s equivalent to mass murder of puppies. Quite frankly you keep spouting that word like those players are the problem. You want to know what the problem players are? Players like you. Flippers, whether it be the same item be bought and resold or resources being refined and returned to the market, would not be making money if players like you did not seek instant gratification. They end up with more gold than you because they play intelligent and dont seek instant gratification.

Here’s the hilarity of it all. I could do the same exact things you do, drop the same exact items, and I’ll end up with more gold than you. Why? Because you’re selling to buy orders and shooting yourself in the foot. Meanwhile, I’m listing as sell orders and making more money when items sell, or salvaging, refining, and selling those results and making more money that you do by selling crap items to a merchant.

Now tell me, would you flip out and ask that the activities I did be nerfed because I played smarter than you and made more gold? It’s a brilliant strategy until you realize by asking that, you nerf the very things YOU did to make less money.

phys.7689:

Wanze.8410:

Wikie.2610:

@wwfam
again and again you missed the point in my topic wwfam I dont question the fun part of it just the fact that fun things arent as rewarding as boring tp maths minigame in gw2 – so I do the stuff other players do for my share of fun but still I’m ahead of some of them in terms of ingame rewards because I exploit their fun for my profit by means of tp and the fact that some arent as good with it as others
get it?

@smoothpenguin
yeah I get all you’re saying and you are right, however I still find this wrong how this game is so focused on tp and gem store and not on dungeons and dragons and the shortest way to get to some material goals in the game are through those means not by actual ingame work or lucky drops back in the gw1 days (and in some other games I play/played) I felt happy when I dropped a rare shiney and it always meant something even tho I was fairly rich from spamadan trading and that little drop was really a miniscule part of it…and here like 90% of exotics are worth 1g and almost everything in terms of loot feels unrewarding also thanks to anet nerfing farms loots champ bags and so on

The TP is a wonderful tool to determine the value of your loot yourself. If you list your items at the same value as the flipper/speculator, you make as much gold as him in the same time. If you sell all your loot to the highest bidder, you actually refuse to get more gold for your loot and shouldnt come complain about it.

The flipper speculator makes money for transacting, the seller makes money for time/effort. back in the day there was a market ineffeciency with elder wood producing items, turns out i could make money breaking down items and turning elder wood into elderwood planks.
doing it with my own items, i made as much of it as i could find items to salvage.
doing it buy buying from lowest seller, i was able to increase my current wealth by a value in % per hour, up to the velocity and competitor cap.

I think when i had like 120 gold, i was able to make 10 gold an hour off that. And to be honest i was working harder than most flippers, because i actually had to break items down, reform them and sell the results. I would have made money with less effort by simply flipping, but i prefer to get the most bang for my buck, even though it cost me more time.

point is. farmer getting top dollar for his farmed goods isnt the same as a TP player who primarily profits off of transactions. the more transactions the more money you make as a flipper.

Most of my profits come from crafting, forging and salvaging, not flipping.

Aidan Savage.2078:

phys.7689:

flipper.

Please stop treating that word like it’s equivalent to mass murder of puppies. Quite frankly you keep spouting that word like those players are the problem. You want to know what the problem players are? Players like you. Flippers, whether it be the same item be bought and resold or resources being refined and returned to the market, would not be making money if players like you did not seek instant gratification. They end up with more gold than you because they play intelligent and dont seek instant gratification.

Here’s the hilarity of it all. I could do the same exact things you do, drop the same exact items, and I’ll end up with more gold than you. Why? Because you’re selling to buy orders and shooting yourself in the foot. Meanwhile, I’m listing as sell orders and making more money when items sell, or salvaging, refining, and selling those results and making more money that you do by selling crap items to a merchant.

Now tell me, would you flip out and ask that the activities I did be nerfed because I played smarter than you and made more gold? It’s a brilliant strategy until you realize by asking that, you nerf the very things YOU did to make less money.

What are you talking about selling crap items to a merchant? i didnt mention that at all.
Also i have no hate for flipper, i use it describe a type of merchanting that focuses on flipping items and making money off each transaction. Much like they may describe investors in reall life as bulls or bears, its simply a term to describe a strategy of play.

And on your last point, im different than you, im not here talking to try to protect my method of earning. Im not even advocating any actual nerfs to the TP or flipping. I am for increasing mmo fun. Problem is the reward system and how it is built to feed the tp, is lowering fun. Many games have rich people, who can buy the world, but there also a lot of people who earned items just as fast, if not faster by playing the game. Im not really playing this game to earn money, earning money is just what i have to do to get the things i want in the game. Id basically prefer i had some goals that a good, reasonable way of obtaining it was based on non TP gameplay.

phys.7689:

And on your last point, im different than you, im not here talking to try to protect my method of earning. Im not even advocating any actual nerfs to the TP or flipping. I am for increasing mmo fun. Problem is the reward system and how it is built to feed the tp, is lowering fun. Many games have rich people, who can buy the world, but there also a lot of people who earned items just as fast, if not faster by playing the game. Im not really playing this game to earn money, earning money is just what i have to do to get the things i want in the game. Id basically prefer i had some goals that a good, reasonable way of obtaining it was based on non TP gameplay.

But why do you keep posting in topics about profits on the tp instead of making suggestions on how to improve rewards for other parts of the game in the appropriate forums?

" Im not really playing this game to earn money, earning money is just what i have to do to get the things i want in the game. "

I agree … I behave in the same way but with my methods of earning

Wanze.8410:

phys.7689:

And on your last point, im different than you, im not here talking to try to protect my method of earning. Im not even advocating any actual nerfs to the TP or flipping. I am for increasing mmo fun. Problem is the reward system and how it is built to feed the tp, is lowering fun. Many games have rich people, who can buy the world, but there also a lot of people who earned items just as fast, if not faster by playing the game. Im not really playing this game to earn money, earning money is just what i have to do to get the things i want in the game. Id basically prefer i had some goals that a good, reasonable way of obtaining it was based on non TP gameplay.

But why do you keep posting in topics about profits on the tp instead of making suggestions on how to improve rewards for other parts of the game in the appropriate forums?

you realize any post about this stuff gets moved to this forum because this is the rewards part of the forum right?
You also realize that the OP of the post is saying i wish i didnt have to play the TP to get endgame items?

I am completely on topic an appropriate here.

Back to the subject of the post I dont think TP kill the fun… for me at least is a part (i underline “part”) of the game and must be played if you want it. I dont play PVP and some things I can only get in PVP but I dont say PVP kills the fun of my game, I only just chose not to get interested in that content.

vergna.8420:

Back to the subject of the post I dont think TP kill the fun… for me at least is a part (i underline “part”) of the game and must be played if you want it. I dont play PVP and some things I can only get in PVP but I dont say PVP kills the fun of my game, I only just chose not to get interested in that content.

i would agree with you, but PVE content is primarily gold based. And designed with the TP in mind. Also i am not saying buying things shouldnt be an option, but actually going out and trying to get them specifically should be a better option.

Lets say an item drops in SPvP only, and only when you win a championship. If the players sold that to you, you and them would be exchanging value.

But the way pve works is you cant target most items/good directly and be effecient. Therefore the best way to get anything specific is to earn money and buy the item.

phys.7689:

Wanze.8410:

phys.7689:

And on your last point, im different than you, im not here talking to try to protect my method of earning. Im not even advocating any actual nerfs to the TP or flipping. I am for increasing mmo fun. Problem is the reward system and how it is built to feed the tp, is lowering fun. Many games have rich people, who can buy the world, but there also a lot of people who earned items just as fast, if not faster by playing the game. Im not really playing this game to earn money, earning money is just what i have to do to get the things i want in the game. Id basically prefer i had some goals that a good, reasonable way of obtaining it was based on non TP gameplay.

But why do you keep posting in topics about profits on the tp instead of making suggestions on how to improve rewards for other parts of the game in the appropriate forums?

you realize any post about this stuff gets moved to this forum because this is the rewards part of the forum right?
You also realize that the OP of the post is saying i wish i didnt have to play the TP to get endgame items?

I am completely on topic an appropriate here.

All the OP did was to express his wish to obtain shinies through regular gameplay at the same pace as by playing the tp. He offered no suggestions towards rewards from regular gameplay but centered his post on the TP, so this topic is in the right forum.

Some other users, including you, start giving suggestions on how to improve rewards for other playstyles here but they get completely lost in topics like these because the title and OP doesnt imply that those suggestions might be included in this topic.
Devs will simply not see your feedback because its posted in an unrelated topic.

I am pretty sure, if you make a suggestion about reward structures in the appropriate sub forums and dont mention the Trading Post in your suggestion, it wont be moved here.

Wanze.8410:

phys.7689:

Wanze.8410:

phys.7689:

And on your last point, im different than you, im not here talking to try to protect my method of earning. Im not even advocating any actual nerfs to the TP or flipping. I am for increasing mmo fun. Problem is the reward system and how it is built to feed the tp, is lowering fun. Many games have rich people, who can buy the world, but there also a lot of people who earned items just as fast, if not faster by playing the game. Im not really playing this game to earn money, earning money is just what i have to do to get the things i want in the game. Id basically prefer i had some goals that a good, reasonable way of obtaining it was based on non TP gameplay.

But why do you keep posting in topics about profits on the tp instead of making suggestions on how to improve rewards for other parts of the game in the appropriate forums?

you realize any post about this stuff gets moved to this forum because this is the rewards part of the forum right?
You also realize that the OP of the post is saying i wish i didnt have to play the TP to get endgame items?

I am completely on topic an appropriate here.

All the OP did was to express his wish to obtain shinies through regular gameplay at the same pace as by playing the tp. He offered no suggestions towards rewards from regular gameplay but centered his post on the TP, so this topic is in the right forum.

Some other users, including you, start giving suggestions on how to improve rewards for other playstyles here but they get completely lost in topics like these because the title and OP doesnt imply that those suggestions might be included in this topic.
Devs will simply not see your feedback because its posted in an unrelated topic.

I am pretty sure, if you make a suggestion about reward structures in the appropriate sub forums and dont mention the Trading Post in your suggestion, it wont be moved here.

i wish they didnt move these threads here, but they do. What forum would you place these things in if you were a mod.
Hey mod, or john smith or whoever knows, what would you say the appropriate sub forums for discussing various rewards and their interaction with incentivizing gameplay be.

Just as an FYI, the only way you can make “playing the game” provide a better return for your time than “playing the market” is to prohibit any type of player to player transactions.

All loot is bound to you forever.
Welcome to the grindhouse, it gets worse here every day.

phys.7689:

Wanze.8410:

phys.7689:

Wanze.8410:

phys.7689:

And on your last point, im different than you, im not here talking to try to protect my method of earning. Im not even advocating any actual nerfs to the TP or flipping. I am for increasing mmo fun. Problem is the reward system and how it is built to feed the tp, is lowering fun. Many games have rich people, who can buy the world, but there also a lot of people who earned items just as fast, if not faster by playing the game. Im not really playing this game to earn money, earning money is just what i have to do to get the things i want in the game. Id basically prefer i had some goals that a good, reasonable way of obtaining it was based on non TP gameplay.

But why do you keep posting in topics about profits on the tp instead of making suggestions on how to improve rewards for other parts of the game in the appropriate forums?

you realize any post about this stuff gets moved to this forum because this is the rewards part of the forum right?
You also realize that the OP of the post is saying i wish i didnt have to play the TP to get endgame items?

I am completely on topic an appropriate here.

All the OP did was to express his wish to obtain shinies through regular gameplay at the same pace as by playing the tp. He offered no suggestions towards rewards from regular gameplay but centered his post on the TP, so this topic is in the right forum.

Some other users, including you, start giving suggestions on how to improve rewards for other playstyles here but they get completely lost in topics like these because the title and OP doesnt imply that those suggestions might be included in this topic.
Devs will simply not see your feedback because its posted in an unrelated topic.

I am pretty sure, if you make a suggestion about reward structures in the appropriate sub forums and dont mention the Trading Post in your suggestion, it wont be moved here.

i wish they didnt move these threads here, but they do. What forum would you place these things in if you were a mod.
Hey mod, or john smith or whoever knows, what would you say the appropriate sub forums for discussing various rewards and their interaction with incentivizing gameplay be.

As i said, those threads get moved here because the title and OP discuss the TP, not rewards from other playstyles.

mtpelion.4562:

Just as an FYI, the only way you can make “playing the game” provide a better return for your time than “playing the market” is to prohibit any type of player to player transactions.

All loot is bound to you forever.
Welcome to the grindhouse, it gets worse here every day.

i dont think that is true, I made most of my money in other games by hunting big game/small man instances/raids/or hunting specific monsters. Perhaps the Tp overlords were making so much more money, but it was a rarer form of play, and required pretty big time investments and greater risks.

basically AH mavens had to pay adventurers to get the best items, and some were exclusive, though they werent necessarilly the “best” items they usually offered some different stats.

I remember at some points they made TP sellable items a bit rarer, and had untradeable versions that one could hunt for.

I agree, the TP is an integral part of WvW and PVE and then how it was designed this game. Who says that the TP kills the fun also argues that PVE and WvW are not funny because the TP is an integral part of both. Better to say they do not like GW2 and its structure at this point … The whole mechanics of the drop is designed to run a TP as what we have now. It ’s the main concept of the game that people do not like?

phys.7689:

i dont think that is true, I made most of my money in other games by hunting big game/small man instances/raids/or hunting specific monsters. Perhaps the Tp overlords were making so much more money, but it was a rarer form of play, and required pretty big time investments and greater risks.

basically AH mavens had to pay adventurers to get the best items, and some were exclusive, though they werent necessarilly the “best” items they usually offered some different stats.

I remember at some points they made TP sellable items a bit rarer, and had untradeable versions that one could hunt for.

All exchange systems exist in order to make acquiring things more efficient. These efficient exchanges lead to a higher rate of return than any other type of value add activity because they are efficient, and doing things yourself is not. Any time you have an exchange system, the people who use it will accumulate wealth SIGNIFICANTLY faster than those who don’t because they are leveraging Division of Labor.

mtpelion.4562:

phys.7689:

i dont think that is true, I made most of my money in other games by hunting big game/small man instances/raids/or hunting specific monsters. Perhaps the Tp overlords were making so much more money, but it was a rarer form of play, and required pretty big time investments and greater risks.

basically AH mavens had to pay adventurers to get the best items, and some were exclusive, though they werent necessarilly the “best” items they usually offered some different stats.

I remember at some points they made TP sellable items a bit rarer, and had untradeable versions that one could hunt for.

All exchange systems exist in order to make acquiring things more efficient. These efficient exchanges lead to a higher rate of return than any other type of value add activity because they are efficient, and doing things yourself is not. Any time you have an exchange system, the people who use it will accumulate wealth SIGNIFICANTLY faster than those who don’t because they are leveraging Division of Labor.

exchange systems exist to create a common ground for making an exchange of goods an services, they try to make the process of exchange more effecient, but they do little for making the actual supply/manufacture more effecient, other than allowing people to specialize.

Which in this game is kind of moot because they dont allow you to specialize in supplying needs or providing services very often.

Using money in and of itself doesnt make cows make more milk, or make scientists smarter, or make tables get made faster.

I do not see why the two activities could not have been more similar in rewards vs. time invested.

I kind of miss that old school RPG element of hunting down certain mobs for specific drops, or adventuring in an area for a particular resource. It should be such that, after you’ve made a fortune in adventuring then you can sit around and RP as some sort of maniacal Tyrian Gordon Gekko.

I’ve always believed that GW2 unnecessarily inflates the rarity of too many items. Instead of having lots and lots of short to medium term endgame goals, players are presented with massive, time-consuming, costly feats to achieve.

phys.7689:

exchange systems exist to create a common ground for making an exchange of goods an services,

Wrong, that’s “currency”.

they try to make the process of exchange more effecient, but they do little for making the actual supply/manufacture more effecient, other than allowing people to specialize.

By allowing people to specialize (division of labor) they directly lead to efficiency in all aspects of the economy, not just wealth acquisition. Manufacturers can work out new ways to make pots because they don’t have to also figure out how to grow corn and raise pigs.

Which in this game is kind of moot because they dont allow you to specialize in supplying needs or providing services very often.

Using money in and of itself doesnt make cows make more milk, or make scientists smarter, or make tables get made faster.

You are certainly allowed to focus your time into a single activity, so you can “specialize”. That’s the whole point of the exchange system, allowing people who only do PvP to enjoy things that PvE players find and sell, for example.

As for your currency comment (money), using money allows you to convert your specialty into a currency that can be traded on the exchange for the specialty of another person. It may not make the cows produce more milk, but it allows you to enjoy milk without having a cow.

Jahroots.6791:

I do not see why the two activities could not have been more similar in rewards vs. time invested.

Its because Anet is responsible for rewards from gameplay and players are responsible for profit on the tp.

phys.7689:

brittitude.1983

So, to sum up the post:

You are a TP trader/baron.
Players generally get upset when people like you claim a) to have amassed wealth, b) quickly, c) with little effort, and d) in a short time-frame.
Other games with auction houses have had failures in those economies.

Questions:

What exactly is the issue? Are you worried about people being upset with you? Or are you worried that your greed outweighs your desire to do other things in the game and you want someone to make you to stop being greedy?

Your argument has a fallacy:

GW2 doesn’t have an auction house.

i think his point is yes, the game is making his greed work against his enjoyment instead of for his enjoyment. And honestly thats the purpose of a good reward structure.

Its why food tastes good, and sex is pleasurable. Reward behavior that is beneficial. End game rewards are supposed to keep people interested in playing, but the current structure makes people not want to play the game.

I disagree. Greed isn’t the same as desire. Greed is having to have everything and more of it. Desire is wanting something for the pleasure of having it. If someone is greedy, the game shouldn’t be restructured to correct the behavior. The reward structure should be about obtaining something desired. And I believe, for the most part, the game strives to satisfy desires, not greed.

The OP is denying himself both pleasure and rewards due to greed, not the game structure. Instead, greed drives him to get something in a way that is undesirable, but faster. And then he complains that the game makes him do it, which is untrue. His innate self makes him greedy and pushes him to get something as fast as possible. This is not a basis for changing the game in any way, even as a reason to restructure rewards. I would guess that the OP would be complaining about how unreasonably long it takes to get something if the only way to get it would be to play the game, because, in his greed, he can’t get it fast enough.

your being a bit dramatic OP, every mmo has a trading post of some kind and they all have flippers, when i got my party hat set in runescape i only logged in to lend and trade party hats for the final 6 months before i quit runescape….but that was also because i had DONE EVERYTHING, what im asking you is, r u sure the egg didnt come before the chicken? maybe u really just dont wana do anything else in this game right now and the TP is the ONLY thing keping u around

There’s no point arguing about reward structures anymore imho.

We have told them many many many times that events gave too little reward and what did they do? They nerfed the coin drop??!?!!

And dungeons, plenty of suggestions have been made about the rewards there. Countless people have complained about SE p2 giving same reward as COF p1 but nothing has nor will change.

I don’t even try anymore.

tl;dr: Time vs Reward isn’t anet’s strong point

I hear you loud and clear, OP.

The issue is that gold is the only thing which matters. They really screwed up hard with legendaries and there isn’t much to actually accomplish in the game outside of farming more gold. This game has no sense of adventure to it and it’s slowly killing it.

Let’s hope ANet hears you too.

I would love to know who is the main influence when it comes to GW2 reward structure. I have a guess which if correct would explain a lot of this games poor rewards from a game play standpoint.

Oh, this thread again.

OP, as has been pointed out by others, you only highlighted the part of the d3 decision that was convenient to bolster your argument. You forgot the fundamental motivation that drove d3 players to the auction house in the first place

Other than that: you should compliment the devs on creating a mini-game out of the TP that people like, it’s the only game form (recognized by John as such) in GW2 that sinks money from it rather than, as normal gameplay does, generate currency and items out of thin air fueling the inevitable inflation. Lastly, you speak of exploits whereas the TP game is the only game that is virtually exploit-free (other than botters, may they all be banned, but you have those in PvE too). Red-eye? Destructive with or without the TP. Linen and snowflake exploits? They all created massive amounts of currencies crashing people’s hard earned items and time spent in-game obtaining them. But you know all of this already, so it’s pointless that I continue.

To get this straight:

-gw2 pve and pvp are boring
-gw2 tp is all you do
-you don’t enjoy the tp
-you want to nerf tp because you don’t think it is fair

It seems to me the best solution for you is to quit gw2. You don’t like doing anything in the game anyway.

Before you quit go run around farming zones and mail random people money. You will be happier and you will ‘help’ the economy too!