Guild Wars 2

The black lion chests are often junk items, and the minis are often superseded by ones that are obtained by actually doing something (see: mini liadri, mini llama, mini dolyak, mini panda)

You have a point on the armor skins, but those things can easily be purchased by grinding gold and exchanging for gems, since there is no backlog for trading one currency for another; and pvp spits transmutation charges at you fairly regularly.

further, those armor items often go on sale, and the limited items come back frequently.

It isnt like there’s a stark paywall. you can obtain anything in the gem store with enough gold.

and on top of that, none of the items give users an advantage over others. (unless you call -looking cool- an advantage, but several armor sets in game do that much better than the store-only ones.)

The items there -have- to be attractive for people to even want to buy them. that being said, they don’t give competitive or in game advantages apart from glitz, and a small amount of patience lets you purchase there as well without even spending a cent.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

lordkrall.7241:

And how do you suggest they paid all their 300+ employees during those years it takes to develop the expansion?

Well they’ve had over 2 years already. That’s enough time to develop two expansions, or one really big one.

You don’t seem to understand this is a business, with a model, answering to stockholders. Anet isn’t going to throw away a working business model simply to appease entitled players that don’t like or understand it. Investor confidence in a business that would even think about doing that would go down the toilet.

The gemstore, as much as you seem to dislike it, is the only important thing that keeps this game alive. If you take anything away from this discussion, understand at least that much.

Obtena.7952:

The gemstore, as much as you seem to dislike it, is the only important thing that keeps this game alive. If you take anything away from this discussion, understand at least that much.

Uhhhhh… no. It’s the key source of continued monetary support for the game. It’s not “the only important thing that keeps the game alive.” You could have 5 people spending $50,000 a day each in gem store purchases and the game will still be dead if they are the only ones playing.

Even if new cosmetic items are usually put in the gem store, did you all forget you can convert Gold → Gems?

That is your in game time (From farming or however you get it) being rewarded, except you have the option of where you want your reward (the gold you earned) to go.

Labjax.2465:

Obtena.7952:

The gemstore, as much as you seem to dislike it, is the only important thing that keeps this game alive. If you take anything away from this discussion, understand at least that much.

Uhhhhh… no. It’s the key source of continued monetary support for the game. It’s not “the only important thing that keeps the game alive.” You could have 5 people spending $50,000 a day each in gem store purchases and the game will still be dead if they are the only ones playing.

Flawed example. Most purchases are small amounts by many players. Players are less likely to spend money on a “dead” game such as in your example. Monetary support keeps the game running.

Do you support your local transportation services by riding the transit, rail, etc for free without paying? Do you support your local schools by sending your children there but you do not pay taxes?

There’s a difference between supporting a game by playing and supporting a game by financial means. Financial means has a much bigger impact than active players in regards to keepibg a game alive. An MMO such as GW2 will die faster with dwindling financial support much quicker than it would with dwindling active players.

I do not consider freeloading as support.

Ayrilana.1396:

Flawed example. Most purchases are small amounts by many players. Players are less likely to spend money on a “dead” game such as in your example. Monetary support keeps the game running.

Do you support your local transportation services by riding the transit, rail, etc for free without paying? Do you support your local schools by sending your children there but you do not pay taxes?

There’s a difference between supporting a game by playing and supporting a game by financial means. Financial means has a much bigger impact than active players in regards to keepibg a game alive. An MMO such as GW2 will die faster with dwindling financial support much quicker than it would with dwindling active players.

I do not consider freeloading as support.

Yeah, note that you said yourself “will die faster with dwindling financial support” and with that, I agree 100%. But that’s not what you said the first time. You said that financial support is the only thing keeping the game alive, which is simply not true.

An MMO is not a school or a transportation system. It is a 100% optional piece of entertainment, competing against countless other entertainment options and many of its mechanics work based on a consistently large number of active players. Putting lots of hours into an MMO is not “freeloading” – you are, by choosing to play X MMO over Y MMO, helping maintain X as a successful business venture.

For example, say Mr. No-Money is a hugely active player who is paying nothing in the store. Through the game mechanics, he gets a bunch of really cool items, some of which can be bought with gold (by buying gems and converting them to gold). John Doe Huge-Wallet sees No-Money’s cool stuff and wants what he has, but Huge-Wallet doesn’t have the time to go grind the gold. So he goes to the store and gets gold through gem purchasing.

Guess what? Mr. No-Money just indirectly made the game some money. He is free advertisement to what can be obtained.

I told people on the forum before the game is out, that it’ll end this way. And everyone bashed me.

Put yourself on the Anet Staff’s shoe, you’ll do the same thing to make more money.

That was me giving my view and then trying to mold my argument with your belief to make it more understandable. Regrettably this did just the opposite.

Players are no more support by playing the game as Scarlet was. You can’t have an MMO without players just as you can’t have a game with enemies, items, etc. They are just elements which make up something. Without financial resources, you’d have neither. If you took out all of the players who don’t support the game through the cash shop, the game would still exist. Do the opposite, and then you would not have the game. Well you’d have it in this form but no updates and minimal support.

You missed what i was arguing with those examples. Look at the underlying argument and not the differences between them and the game. It’s practically impossible to pull an analogy that is 100% exactly like what it’s referring to otherwise it would not be an analogy. Your example in the last half is not support otherwise me being AFK in a skimpy outfit in LA would be supporting the game.

Also, remember last December where if you purchased gems during a certain timeframe, you’d get some rewards as a token for your support. Did players get this by just playing the game? No.

Edit:

Like all other discussions, quite a number do not cone to agreement with one side or another. Our disagreements are over the definition of what support is and we will likely not ever agree. I’ve stated my points and I’m quite certain i could get even more detailed but honestly it’s not worth the effort because in the end we still would not agree.

I’m thinking we’ll have to just agree to disagree on this one.

Ayrilana.1396:

Flawed example. Most purchases are small amounts by many players.

I dont’ know how true that is. Some of my guildmates bought legendary. So they probably spend 500$ just on buying legendary.

And many people claimed they spend a lot of money trying to get black lion weapon on the forums.

That being said, Im’ not saying you are wrong. I just dont’ know fact, so I don’t claim either way.

But I think Anet do care about those whales as well as small purchase by multiple players. That is probably also the results of high gem price. Those people are more willing to spend $10 than farming if gem price is high.

laokoko.7403:

I told people on the forum before the game is out, that it’ll end this way. And everyone bashed me.

Put yourself on the Anet Staff’s shoe, you’ll do the same thing to make more money.

It’s kind of hard for me to put myself in their shoes. I’m even cognizant of the numerous issues they have to try to think of even on top of delivering a game to people who hate me

You want to argue semantics but the reality is that the game content is simply a delivery vehicle for the gemstore. Therefore, as the OP thoughlessly QQ’s about it, fails to realize it’s the only reason the game exists. That’s why his suggestions for bigger and less frequent expansions simply don’t work to do that.

laokoko.7403:

Ayrilana.1396:

Flawed example. Most purchases are small amounts by many players.

I dont’ know how true that is. Some of my guildmates bought legendary. So they probably spend 500$ just on buying legendary.

And many people claimed they spend a lot of money trying to get black lion weapon on the forums.

That being said, Im’ not saying you are wrong. I just dont’ know fact, so I don’t claim either way.

But I think Anet do care about those whales as well as small purchase by multiple players. That is probably also the results of high gem price. Those people are more willing to spend $10 than farming if gem price is high.

True. We’ll also probably never know as i doubt they would release that info. Based on what i have read about from other games with cash shops, the majority of purchases to tend to be small amounts over time. In this game you likely see it as players purchasing gems whenever a new item is in the gem store or during one of their sales.

Ayrilana.1396:

Like all other discussions, quite a number do not cone to agreement with one side or another. Our disagreements are over the definition of what support is and we will likely not ever agree. I’ve stated my points and I’m quite certain i could get even more detailed but honestly it’s not worth the effort because in the end we still would not agree.

I’m thinking we’ll have to just agree to disagree on this one.

Well for what it’s worth, part of the reason I disagree is because there is no single obvious definition of contribution in a game like this. Even in the realm of monetary support, when does one become a “true” supporter of the game? Upon buying the box? After the first store purchase? Only if he/she makes regular purchases?

It is always going to be nebulous and for that reason alone, I think it’s harmful to try to define it based on money because we just wind up with some people looking down on others, for reasons that aren’t even agreed upon.

More than anything, that’s why I consider everyone who plays a supporter of the game; it means I will respect/treat everyone the same and it is a simple way to look at it.

Obtena.7952:

You want to argue semantics but the reality is that the game content is simply a delivery vehicle for the gemstore. Therefore, as the OP thoughlessly QQ’s about it, fails to realize it’s the only reason the game exists. That’s why his suggestions for bigger and less frequent expansions simply don’t work to do that.

The game content is a delivery vehicle for the Gem Store?

. . . sure, okay. In other news, it’s been announced the Pokemon games are simply a delivery vehicle for the anime.

Ayrilana.1396:

Based on what i have read about from other games with cash shops, the majority of purchases to tend to be small amounts over time.

You might want to take a source at the report you are reading. What you said may be true for games like DDO or LOTRO. It is very untrue for asian f2p games.

I think certain cash shop games have an absurdly large amount of unlocks, don’t have a gem<→gold system, and dont’ have RNG chest. Those are the types of games that people generally spend small amount overtimes. It dont’ necessary apply to other types of cash shop games.

God forbit if ArenaNet tries to get some money for running the (free) game

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

~~ snip ~~~

The one major issue you’re leaving out here is Entitlement. Players who complain about the Gem Store, tend to be the ones who want the Gem Store items the most. Their desire to have these items are countered by their inability to obtain them. Much like how people complain about certain Precursors being expensive, or Louis Vuitton purses being overpriced. Some people feel that they deserve to have said item, and aren’t happy that others can have something they can’t.

In the psychological nature of human desire, it’s a common underlying problem where as people always want the best things. There is no inherent problem with just wanting the best. In fact, businesses utilize people’s desires to have the best as a way to make sales. Want the latest model Mustang? The 2015 model is on sale if you come into a dealership in the next 30 days! However, the problem is when there’s a huge discrepancy between wanting an item, and the ability to purchase the item. If you cannot obtain what you desire, the human emotion jealously becomes the driving force.

The best way to resolve these issues has already been recommended in this thread. You can:

• 1) Understand that all items in the Gem Store are optional.
• 2) Realize that without microtransactions to sustain game development, GW2 could end up like City of Heroes – shut down and forgotten.
• 3) Understand that Gems don’t require a creditcard to purchase. You can trade in-game Gold for Gems for free.
• 3a) Gem Exchange ratios get more expensive as players continue to use Gold to get Gems. This is working as intended.
• 4) Reevaluate your priorities in the game. If you’re not having fun because you can’t purchase Gem Store items, removing the Gem Store isn’t the solution.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Obtena.7952:

You want to argue semantics but the reality is that the game content is simply a delivery vehicle for the gemstore. Therefore, as the OP thoughlessly QQ’s about it, fails to realize it’s the only reason the game exists. That’s why his suggestions for bigger and less frequent expansions simply don’t work to do that.

The game content is a delivery vehicle for the Gem Store?

Time for a reality check.

If that seems like a crazy statement to you, you don’t get what’s going on here. Think about it … this is a BUSINESS. It’s not philanthropy that we get the opportunity to play this game. The game and it’s content is the lure to get you to buy gems. Now ask yourself if this business makes profit selling gems to players in GW2 … It must because Anet or its parent company answers to investors that expect ROI.

While I agree that RNG boxes are not the most interesting way to deliver content it is apparently effective. I have posts arguing against BLChests but the gemstore as a whole is a service that we, as players playing a free to play game, as in every piece of content that is released you can take part in for free, is really the least offensive way for ANET to make money. It could be a lot worse. They could limit daily WP access based on gem purchases. They could limit daily world boss kills with gem purchases. They could have given two character slots, or gated races behind gems. Things that free to plays are infamous for.

Compared to what could be, ANET is very generous in terms of what they offer. They even let you access their gem store through currency that you can get IN GAME. Entitlement is the name of the game in these forums, though.

On that note, Black Lion Chests may owe us a reconstruction only due to the fact that they allowed key farming to persist. People became comfortable with BLC content having a relatively reliable way to access and it undoubtedly had an effect on the economy. Now that access is (allegedly) being altered, there is rising anxiety that skins won’t be as easy to get.

Is it unfortunate that it won’t be as reliable? Yes. Unfair? No.

And again – you can get anything you want from the gem store if you play the game and trade your gold for it.

Vayne.8563:

Seven Star Stalker.1740:

I can’t comment on the rest, but if will say that a game which Focusses on cosmetic rewards shouldn’t have the vast majority of said rewards in the cash shop.

In that sense, this game is p2fullfillthegoaloftheaverageplayer. Because whilst it’s true that you don’t win anything, it’s exactly as I mentioned originally: The goal of the game is mostly present via the cash shop in terms of achieving it. The number of skins available outside the cash shop is uh, miniscule post release.

I assume you mean armor skins, because most weapon skins can be purchased on the TP for gold.

Uhm, yes if someone gets really lucky with their key farming, or buys them outright.

If no one uses keys, no one gets scraps and there are no skins. Also, there’s the other skins (Marjory weapons, Braham and Rox skins, ect.)

Even though they’re resellable on the TP, fundamentally their source is from the the gem store. Just like when you buy fruits from Woolworths or Safeway, it fundamentally comes from farms.

Digression aside, that’s an aspect I resonate with the OP in regards to that the gem store bothers me about. If our progression is supposed to be cosmetic, I don’t have an issue with that, but my point is that if I wanted to pay for a reward I could just buy some other strategy or RPG title and get my feeling of fulfilment and success and prettiness from that. It’s not even a case of some reward and skins being in the store. It’s most.

Edit; Before anyone misunderstands, I’m fine with the presence of the gem store. My issue is with the lack of presence of stuff outside of it.

With the insane rng blc has to offer, i doubt a lot will buy keys just to open them. Others will just prefer to make a light armor for maximizimg profit and buy the skin itseld from tp.

Your point maybe valid, but everything on the gemstore is fine. They improve quality of life and not game breaking. The best cash shop in a free to play game.

Except for 1 item. Silver fed. This just shows how anet is becoming the greedy corporate like.the rest of game developers.

Obtena.7952:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Obtena.7952:

You want to argue semantics but the reality is that the game content is simply a delivery vehicle for the gemstore. Therefore, as the OP thoughlessly QQ’s about it, fails to realize it’s the only reason the game exists. That’s why his suggestions for bigger and less frequent expansions simply don’t work to do that.

The game content is a delivery vehicle for the Gem Store?

Time for a reality check.

If that seems like a crazy statement to you, you don’t get what’s going on here. Think about it … this is a BUSINESS. It’s not philanthropy that we get the opportunity to play this game. The game and it’s content is the lure to get you to buy gems. Now ask yourself if this business makes profit selling gems to players in GW2 … It must because Anet or its parent company answers to investors that expect ROI.

Okay, yes all of that makes sense mostly . . .

And yet, the phrasing “simply” in regards to the game is like saying Mass Effect was simply an attempt to get people to preorder the next game.

Gnat.9405:

While I agree that RNG boxes are not the most interesting way to deliver content it is apparently effective. I have posts arguing against BLChests but the gemstore as a whole is a service that we, as players playing a free to play game, as in every piece of content that is released you can take part in for free, is really the least offensive way for ANET to make money. It could be a lot worse. They could limit daily WP access based on gem purchases. They could limit daily world boss kills with gem purchases. They could have given two character slots, or gated races behind gems. Things that free to plays are infamous for.

Compared to what could be, ANET is very generous in terms of what they offer. They even let you access their gem store through currency that you can get IN GAME. Entitlement is the name of the game in these forums, though.

Is it really entitlement to want to feel rewarded in the game? I think the core message in my original post, was that the game seems to lack rewards because the majority of items are placed in the store, rather than in the game. So it’s not so much a matter of entitlement to those items, but the feeling of a lack of rewards outside the store. I want to find/earn mini pets, musical instruments, armor skins, hats, costumes. Instead I have to grind enough gold to buy them from the store, because the game itself is devoid of these desirable items.

The Gem Store is not a service. We already paid for the game, they have our money. And now they want more. And it’s fine if people want to spent real cash on vanity items, but what about vanity items in the game itself? Why are the rewards such a barren wasteland?

Seven Star Stalker.1740:

Edit; Before anyone misunderstands, I’m fine with the presence of the gem store. My issue is with the lack of presence of stuff outside of it.

THIS was exactly my point.

Every few weeks there’s a new armor skin… for the store, or a new costume…. for the store, or some really nice mini pets…. for the store. Ok, what about a mini pet reward at the end of the Living Story? What about adding that mini wurm trio to the reward chest of the Jungle Wurm boss? (Cause, you know, he’s kind of lacking rewards) What about some cool armor types or town clothes to work towards? It’s been more than a year since release, why aren’t there new armors, and hardly new weapons? Oh, wait… they were all added to the store. See my problem?

The Gem Store feels like some kind of giant black hole, that sucks up the rewards of the game, leaving the game outside of it an empty void.

Jovel.5706:

Items such as:

• Black Lion Salvage Kit

In GW1 we had a special salvage kit that could remove inscriptions and runes from items without destroying them at a 100% chance. It was a game item that costed skill points and materials to craft IN THE GAME. GW2? Gemstore item and it’s a rip off at that.

Still doesn’t take out the fact that ALL salvage kits in the game right now fall short to the returns of a Black Lion Salvage Kit. That isn’t forcing people to play with Black Lion Chests/spend cash on the gemstore?

• Boosters of any kind and the Communal Boost Bonfire

As far as I know there is not a single consumable in the game that grants 50% crafting EXP, 50% karma, 50% magic find, etc. Nothing can be cooked up by chefs, no concoction can be made by artificers, there is no way to make these items in the game nor a consumable that stacks like these items with food and utilities like the boosters can. Putting combat boosters like Strength, Armor, Speed, etc boosters at an advantage over consumables that can be acquired in the game. Once key farming is gone, these advantages should leave the gemstore. Yes, they are advantages even if it’s a 5% strength booster. When the OP spoke of the gemstore digging it’s muddy fingers deep into the game’s reward system, I believe her criteria fits items such as these that give advantages beyond anything that can be acquired in the game, taking away from the potential of the crafting system and it’s benefits.

I say that when food has 15% EXP gain, magic find buffs when buffed with a boon, “Kill Streak-like mechanics” whenever one kills an enemy, etc. The boosters are gemstore items and they give better buffs to those who pay real money for Black Lion Keys. They can be purchased for in-game gold, but who is going to pay OVER 20 GOLD for a single booster?

Strength, speed, etc boosters cannot be bought from the gemstore. They come from Black Lion Chests, so even if one wanted to buy them with gold they’ll still have to gamble it on keys when 100 gems = +13 gold.

• Metabolic primer, Utility primer, and Revive orb

The primers speak for themselves. The revive orb is reminiscent of a craftable consumable in GW1 called the Scroll of Resurrection in which it can revive playable characters in battle at a chance of getting kitten again with revive sickness, 25% HP in GW1 with death penalty still active. Again, the potential of the crafting system is chipped at to make an extra buck on the gemstore.

Buffs and consumables should not be sold on a cash shop. The primers extend the benefits from food and utilities by 12 hours, that itself is not a buff but should be viewed as such when the maximum duration of some consumables in-game is 1 hour per consumption. Could be viewed as a convenience item if it weren’t for the fact that food and utility consumables are used in battle, unlike the harvesting tools which offer a convenience to those who want to harvest, nothing to do with combat, or the salvage-o-matics which offer convenience to those who want to salvage, again, nothing to do with combat. Both of the previous items do not make money back without investing decades of dedicated time into the game, so no big deal. But the primers offer convenience in combat situations and that is a line that should not be crossed, even it takes just as many decades to make the money back from buying them with gold and using them on the most expensive food and utility consumables.

no. just no.

BLTC salvage kits? i have 5 of them, got all from map completion.
Dyes? have you visited a laurel merchant lately? plus – you can get the dyes you want straight from the TP, after they have been identified which means you actually save gold by eliminating the RNG and getting just what you want.

primers? also, got couple of metabolic, all from map completion.
boosters? the same. I’m drowning in WXP, XP, +speed, gathering, karma, magic find and what not boosters. how i got them? you guessed it..

all this again, means the gem store does not have an impact on your play style, or your “rewards” – unless you want it to, or you want the permanent hair style contract handed to you…

There are so many rewards in this game. It just turns out if they are easy to get, the community tends not to value them very much. Pact Weapons have unique skins and a few decent effects, but everyone gets them from completing the story, so pfft. We get zephyrite skins for “free” with enough achievements and… well, much as people seemed to like them originally, I don’t see them much anymore.

ANet has provided a huge number of ways to get shinies, the primary one of which is the TP. ANet has given us foes that nearly always drop something and the stuff we don’t want turns out to have value to someone else, thus we can sell wanted “junk” and buy the stuff we do want.

The game is definitely missing a place to store your money, so you can more easily budget for the stuff you want (but which costs more than you have). I tend to “hide” that sort of coin by putting in lowball buy offers. Sometimes, the market shifts for an hour and I get the item cheap, other times I have to up my offer so it’s more competitive.

silvermember.8941:

DarkWasp.7291:

I really don’t understand all of this anti-entitlement stuff that people have been preaching these days.

We’re not saying we are owed a free expansion or anything. We’re asking for game play.

Hence why they decided to go to the LS story route, it adds something to the game and the ones interested are going to log in, once every 2 weeks versus 1 month every 1 year.

I actually like LS2. The purpose of my post though: If they did actual expansions or expansion-like content, they would have to create more armor sets (for example) that are earned through progress in-game. Currently all of the armor skins (aside from ascended) have just been added to the post every few chapters. And now they’ve gotten to the point were we don’t even get armor but unmixable outfits instead.

Take Mawdrey for example. I didn’t really need Mawdrey, nor do I care for the skin, but I did everything in my power to obtain it. Why? Because it is a reward for interesting gameplay and it was fun to obtain.

DarkWasp.7291:

silvermember.8941:

DarkWasp.7291:

I really don’t understand all of this anti-entitlement stuff that people have been preaching these days.

We’re not saying we are owed a free expansion or anything. We’re asking for game play.

Hence why they decided to go to the LS story route, it adds something to the game and the ones interested are going to log in, once every 2 weeks versus 1 month every 1 year.

I actually like LS2. The purpose of my post though: If they did actual expansions or expansion-like content, they would have to create more armor sets (for example) that are earned through progress in-game. Currently all of the armor skins (aside from ascended) have just been added to the post every few chapters. And now they’ve gotten to the point were we don’t even get armor but unmixable outfits instead.

Take Mawdrey for example. I didn’t really need Mawdrey, nor do I care for the skin, but I did everything in my power to obtain it. Why? Because it is a reward for interesting gameplay and it was fun to obtain.

We don’t get mixable armor because a lot of players seem to extremely hate clipping in guild wars 2. Clipping is a known issue in almost every game (but lesser in single player games that don’t even have armor pieces mixing). In any case Guild wars 2 fans have been shown to be extremely efficient at ignoring the good and focusing entirely on the bad.

Personally, I think Arenanet should stop giving out armor and go fully into a outfit system similar to blade and soul. Give out outfits as rewards instead of armor pieces.

With your mawdrey example, it seems to me that the fun gameplay was secondary to the reward and if that is how you play you will never be satisfied because you will always be demanding new rewards.

Moving on. Let’s look at things from Arenanet’s prospective, why should they release new dungeons, better yet why an expansion? The fact that new dungeons were stop being made probably means that their metrics show they were not popular enough to justify the amount of resources require to build them. Secondly, unlike WOW that needs an expansion to justify charging players 15 bucks a month for 12 months + charging an expansion, guild wars 2 doesn’t which means it is probably not a viable strategy for two reason.
1. players are going to buy through the content and leave the game within a month.
2. the cost of an expansion is the equivalent of 6 armor pieces bought on the cash shop. And that armor pieces probably require a 1000 times less work and money than making an expansion.

tl;dr

ARenanet has no reason to make an expansion. The cost of making an expansion is probably a 1000 times more than a cost of making 1 armor or outfit piece and you only need to buy 3-4 armor pieces to get the equivalent of a expansion price.

Why do you think there is a staff Economist?

Do you think his primary purpose is to make sure that the economy runs smoothly because that makes for a great heroic fantasy MMO? As yourself how intrinsic a smoothly running free market economy is to heroic fantasy. Do you see supply/demand economic simulations in heroic fantasy fiction? Heroic fantasy film? Heroic fantasy rpgs? In order to simulate the experience of dragon-fighting, witch-king slaying, one true hero storytelling how crucial is an open market?

I’m sure a lot of ArenaNet’s creative personnel have a personal goal of creating an engaging, awe-inspiring heroic fantasy game. But that is not the primary purpose of this game. A contemporary MMO is a virtual economy designed to generate real wealth. It is wrapped in a heroic fantasy skin in order to entice players to engage in that economy.

The cash shop has not contaminated GW2. It’s a functional part of the machine needed for it’s primary purpose.

Gibson.4036:

Why do you think there is a staff Economist?

Probably so he can keep an eye on the Trading Post they added this time instead of the automated vendors GW1 had. And so he can wax mildly sarcastic at people who imply he doesn’t know what he’s talking about.

Not so he can plot the best way of separating you from your money. No, see, that’s what the art department is for . . .

Lol @ Tobias. It’s funny ‘cos it’s true.

I really just want to throw this one comment out there, in response to all of the white knights and comfortable folk that simply can’t empathize with opposing views.

Most of the gem store content is absolutely necessary to enjoy the game.

That’s why it’s in the gem store. To make money. Because they know players will have a much better time in-game with, than without that stuff.

GW2, played without using any of the gem store items (including the ones they give away occasionally, or allow us to trade), is like a meal prepared without any seasoning or added flavours at all. Sure, you’ll get a bellyful, but will it have been enjoyable? Unlikely.

Jahroots.6791:

Lol @ Tobias. It’s funny ‘cos it’s true.

I really just want to throw this one comment out there, in response to all of the white knights and comfortable folk that simply can’t empathize with opposing views.

Most of the gem store content is absolutely necessary to enjoy the game.

To steal the quote: LOL @ Jahroots because it’s not true.

That’s why it’s in the gem store. To make money. Because they know players will have a much better time in-game with, than without that stuff.

Because I say to myself “if only I had a playable harp or flute, I could really enjoy getting my teeth kicked in by anyone else in WvW catching me running alone”. “If only I had that one Metabolic Booster my food I never use would last longer.” “If I only had a Tormented Bow I would really enjoy doing Fractals.”

GW2, played without using any of the gem store items (including the ones they give away occasionally, or allow us to trade), is like a meal prepared without any seasoning or added flavours at all. Sure, you’ll get a bellyful, but will it have been enjoyable? Unlikely.

Yeah . . . no. Just . . . no.

Oh, ha-ha. Well, there’s that, and there’s also:

- No outfits, armour or weapon skins (with a few exceptions).
- No transmutation, ever.
- No fancy hair-dids or ability to make a dog faced Charr.
- Five characters, tops.
- One (uncomfortably full) bank tab

Now, Anet has fortunately allowed us to attain all of these things with gold earned through game play, but you’ve got to admit that this game would have a lot less depth without these options.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Because I say to myself “if only I had a playable harp or flute, I could really enjoy getting my teeth kicked in by anyone else in WvW catching me running alone”. “If only I had that one Metabolic Booster my food I never use would last longer.” “If I only had a Tormented Bow I would really enjoy doing Fractals.”

These activities are inherently pretty fun, this is true. But I do not think GW2 would have the player base that it does today if we only had access to the ‘default’ settings. No upgrades or boosts, no little playthings, no new cosmetics (apart from the in-game stuff). The forums would be absolutely brimming with complaints.

The end game is cosmetic progression. Hell, there’s an entire reddit devoted to it.

Jahroots.6791:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Because I say to myself “if only I had a playable harp or flute, I could really enjoy getting my teeth kicked in by anyone else in WvW catching me running alone”. “If only I had that one Metabolic Booster my food I never use would last longer.” “If I only had a Tormented Bow I would really enjoy doing Fractals.”

These activities are inherently pretty fun, this is true. But I do not think GW2 would have the player base that it does today if we only had access to the ‘default’ settings. No upgrades or boosts, no little playthings, no new cosmetics (apart from the in-game stuff). The forums would be absolutely brimming with complaints.

Are. . . are you reading the same forums I am? They’re practically brimming with complaints now.

Yeah. Point of the post was to express that things are kind of dodgy now, but would have been noticeably worse without the gem store options.

So we don’t stray too far from the topic, I’m of a similar opinion as the OP, but what strikes me the most in these discussions are recurring claims of entitlement among ‘dissenting’ players, and a belief that the core content is all one needs to enjoy the game. I think this is false. We cannot project our own experiences onto those of others, especially when discussing a leisure activity. There’s a certain threshold of reasonable expectation, of course, and I think this post and many others like it are well within those bounds.

Wow…this post is dripping with cynical rhetoric and little to back it up.

Personally, I was one of those people skeptical of the gemstore when I first heard of GW2, but it’s won me over.

I’ve never felt like I had to buy anything from the gemstore to be competitive and I’ve never felt like I was forced to buy anything at all from the gemstore ever.

The gemstore items are nice quality of life/fashion/fun items and that’s about it. A lot of it is crap (*cough*Silver Fed Salvage cough), but that’s no big deal. Ultimately, I like feeling like I can pay into the game when I feel it’s deserved and it’s nice to get some fun items when I do so.

Much better than a sub model.

Jahroots.6791:

Yeah. Point of the post was to express that things are kind of dodgy now, but would have been noticeably worse without the gem store options.

So we don’t stray too far from the topic, I’m of a similar opinion as the OP, but what strikes me the most in these discussions are recurring claims of entitlement among ‘dissenting’ players, and a belief that the core content is all one needs to enjoy the game. I think this is false. We cannot project our own experiences onto those of others, especially when discussing a leisure activity. There’s a certain threshold of reasonable expectation, of course, and I think this post and many others like it are well within those bounds.

I have never used or implied a sense of “entitlement” as a reason to dismiss concerns. I agree that everyone has a different sense of important and fun.

However, I strongly disagree with the idea that there is anything in the gem shop that is required to play the game. Sure, some people might want stuff in the shop to fully enjoy the game, but that’s entirely different from mastering the game’s mechanics.

The statement “the gem store has contaminated the game” implies that this is something that affects the vast majority of the community and is making the game unplayable. I think that’s an unfair characterization of what amounts to a strong personal opinion that game isn’t delivering what the writer hoped for. It’s also hard to have a reasoned discussion about it, because it offers such a stark view of the way in which the game has been designed. It doesn’t leave enough room for dissenting opinions or for working out what can be done differently.

I think the more accurate statement would have been, “the game could be more fun, if it offered more ‘rewards’ outside the gem shop” — that suggests something we can discuss and that ANet can address in variety of ways. And I hope it remains true to the OP’s point of view.

Jahroots.6791:

Oh, ha-ha. Well, there’s that, and there’s also:

- No outfits, armour or weapon skins (with a few exceptions).
- No transmutation, ever.
- No fancy hair-dids or ability to make a dog faced Charr.
- Five characters, tops.
- One (uncomfortably full) bank tab

Now, Anet has fortunately allowed us to attain all of these things with gold earned through game play, but you’ve got to admit that this game would have a lot less depth without these options.

1. I do believe there are a few armors and weapons skins NOT in the Gem store. I personally ignore Outfits.
2. What? I can’t recall the last time I bought tramsutation stones (and I’ve NEVER bought the new charges). There are other ways to get them than the Gem store.
3. Pure Bling. But I do have some of these via key runs and BL Chests…..no funds spent.
4. First real “must have”, but only if your an alt-a- holic.
5. First ACTUAL “must have”….I can’t imagine playing with the default storage.

On the other hand list ALL the updates that have been released since release and then list the funds you have spent on them….

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Obtena.7952:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Obtena.7952:

You want to argue semantics but the reality is that the game content is simply a delivery vehicle for the gemstore. Therefore, as the OP thoughlessly QQ’s about it, fails to realize it’s the only reason the game exists. That’s why his suggestions for bigger and less frequent expansions simply don’t work to do that.

The game content is a delivery vehicle for the Gem Store?

Time for a reality check.

If that seems like a crazy statement to you, you don’t get what’s going on here. Think about it … this is a BUSINESS. It’s not philanthropy that we get the opportunity to play this game. The game and it’s content is the lure to get you to buy gems. Now ask yourself if this business makes profit selling gems to players in GW2 … It must because Anet or its parent company answers to investors that expect ROI.

Okay, yes all of that makes sense mostly . . .

And yet, the phrasing “simply” in regards to the game is like saying Mass Effect was simply an attempt to get people to preorder the next game.

That’s entirely the point of a franchise as well. Get people into the first, supply a second riding on the success of the first. That’s also a strategy and in fact, it’s a strategy this game used as well.

I wouldn’t feel bad about it … remember, you have fun playing this game. Why it exists shouldn’t affect that.

I categorize transmutation stones as gem store items since that is the most consistent way to acquire them. My post included ALL items sold there, in order to back up my initial point; that the gem store is necessary to enjoy the game.

In order for us to have meaningful discussion on this and most other game design issues I think as a community we need to establish and accept some pretty basic premises. Here’s three general points I think most, if not all of us, can agree on.

- In MMOs, character building and progression > game play and mechanics. While GW2 has pretty engaging and action oriented combat, it’s not something most players would enjoy for its own sake.

- In MMOs, this character development is primarily concerned with two things: Power and Cosmetics. GW2 is designed so that there is a hard cap on power progression and it is within everyone’s reach, instead emphasis is placed on cosmetic progression.

-Most of the options for cosmetic progression are gated behind the gem store.

Do these sound like reasonable assertions?

We don’t all hate the gemstore.

Before town clothes were removed, I kept bugging the forums saying, “add more lore-ish town clothes please!” “Add TONS of town clothes please!”

The ability to buy gems with gold has been great.

It’s just that stuff bought from the gemstore tend to be instant gratification. Half the fun of MMOs (and RPGs) for a lot of us is working to make our characters appear and shine the way we want them to. If an armor appears on the gemstore, we can get it in 2 seconds (well actually more like 46+ because the TP aint that fast.) That just isn’t gameplay.

Jahroots.6791:

I categorize transmutation stones as gem store items since that is the most consistent way to acquire them. My post included ALL items sold there, in order to back up my initial point; that the gem store is necessary to enjoy the game.

In order for us to have meaningful discussion on this and most other game design issues I think as a community we need to establish and accept some pretty basic premises. Here’s three general points I think most, if not all of us, can agree on.

- In MMOs, character building and progression > game play and mechanics. While GW2 has pretty engaging and action oriented combat, it’s not something most players would enjoy for its own sake.

- In MMOs, this character development is primarily concerned with two things: Power and Cosmetics. GW2 is designed so that there is a hard cap on power progression and it is within everyone’s reach, instead emphasis is placed on cosmetic progression.

-Most of the options for cosmetic progression are gated behind the gem store.

Do these sound like reasonable assertions?

I would argue the last point. Simply look at all the skins in the wardrobe and I would say less than 1/4 or even less than 20% are in the gem shop in one form (directly) or another (tickets).

DarkWasp.7291:

It’s just that stuff bought from the gemstore tend to be instant gratification. Half the fun of MMOs (and RPGs) for a lot of us is working to make our characters appear and shine the way we want them to. If an armor appears on the gemstore, we can get it in 2 seconds (well actually more like 46+ because the TP aint that fast.) That just isn’t gameplay.

This is a good point and a good way to put it. Grinding out generic gold to acquire certain things is a double-edged sword; on the one hand, it’s good design because it means you don’t need to go do X type of gameplay you hate to get Y item (e.g. gold is a “universal” currency).

But on the other hand, it means that your gameplay goals are going to center around maximizing gold gain. Which ends up restricting your gameplay anyway because you wind up doing the stuff that gets you gold at the best rate. And some gameplay choices are just not a good way to get gold.

It is the same thing we see with karma; karma is a universal currency, but people end up doing karma trains in particular optimal areas to obtain it for the items they need.

I wonder if perhaps the issue here is too strong of a focus on currency (not just in reference to the gem store, but as a general rule). One alternative that exists in some forms is reward tracks; you accomplish X, Y, Z set of objectives over time and you get certain rewards for it. The only problem with this is that you are now looking at a non-varied path to obtaining the rewards. For example, a WvW track can only ever be completed in WvW content.

What I would be interested to see in practice is an objective-based reward track for an item; one that can be completed through a variety of different gameplay areas and is currency-free. Not unlike how Daily/Monthly objectives work.

It’s possible that it’s already been done in this game and I’m simply not thinking of it. But I suspect that such a reward track would feel more engaging and interesting than pure item releases that center around currency.

Labjax.2465:

What I would be interested to see in practice is an objective-based reward track for an item; one that can be completed through a variety of different gameplay areas and is currency-free. Not unlike how Daily/Monthly objectives work.

It’s possible that it’s already been done in this game and I’m simply not thinking of it. But I suspect that such a reward track would feel more engaging and interesting than pure item releases that center around currency.

I get what you’re saying, but you would need to have actual rewards on top of such a system. If everything new added to the game, ends up being in the Gem Store only, you’re left with a very empty game.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

However, I strongly disagree with the idea that there is anything in the gem shop that is required to play the game.

I want to make sure that people do not think that that is the message of my original post. It’s definitely not. What I am saying, is that due to everything being released in the Gem Store, the actual game is left with very few rewards. Too much ends up being developed for the Gem Store, and too little ends up being added to the game.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

The statement “the gem store has contaminated the game” implies that this is something that affects the vast majority of the community and is making the game unplayable.

No, it implies that it affects the game in a negative way, and slowly sinks its tendrils into the future development of the game… which it is. We can already see the signs of this, as more and more unwelcome additions are being added from the Chinese version of GW2. The removal of dyes as drops, the addition of the silver-fed salvage-o-matic, the addition of airship passes and instant travel stones, is but the start of it all.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

I think that’s an unfair characterization of what amounts to a strong personal opinion that game isn’t delivering what the writer hoped for.

I would rather say that the game is turning into something I did not want it to turn into. And that the Gem is evolving from a clever addition, into a parasite.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

I think the more accurate statement would have been, “the game could be more fun, if it offered more ‘rewards’ outside the gem shop” — that suggests something we can discuss and that ANet can address in variety of ways. And I hope it remains true to the OP’s point of view.

I would agree with that statement, but it kind of filters out the growing concern that the Gem Store has on the future development of the game. And as such, I think it is weakening the original message of the opening post.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Nothing, but my point was that the Gem Store has contaminated the reward system.

Monthly subscription fees contaminate the reward system of games that they are included in as well.
So… what’s your point with that point?
That the chosen business model will have an impact on the deliverance of content? Pretty sure most people understand that already, or at least I would hope they do.

Also, there’s another active thread where someone listed the rewards that have been added to the game, but aren’t in the gem store. There seems to be a lack of armor skins, but the list is pretty big over all. So not everything is put in the gem store. “Too much is put in the gem store” is pretty subjective, so… okay I guess? I won’t argue with more free stuff.

Arewn.2368:

Monthly subscription fees contaminate the reward system of games that they are included in as well.

Not really. The difference with sub games is that (excepting for 1 or 2 expansions in the whole lifetime of a game) as long as you are paying the sub fee, you get access to everything, no question about it.

In F2P games (not necessarily talking about GW2 specifically), you can range from paying as little as nothing and eventually getting access to everything, to paying hundreds of dollars just to keep up.

Labjax.2465:

Not really. The difference with sub games is that (excepting for 1 or 2 expansions in the whole lifetime of a game) as long as you are paying the sub fee, you get access to everything, no question about it.

In F2P games (not necessarily talking about GW2 specifically), you can range from paying as little as nothing and eventually getting access to everything, to paying hundreds of dollars just to keep up.

Yes really. For arguments sake, we’ll pretend that sub fee games afford you full access to everything while paying the sub (even though that’s not really the case anymore. Many sub games now have cash shops and payed services on top of the sub, and xpacs on top of sub have always been common). But that doesn’t mean the sub fee doesn’t affect development.
A game with a sub fee has to incentives players to return and pay each month. Take WoW as an example. What do you see in that game’s content? a large list of daily quests/daily quest hubs that take several weeks of repetition and slow unlocking to get through and that have many rewards centered around them, main currency(s) with extended time barriers, and lockouts of dungeons and raids that restrict not only how fast you can get rewards, but also by extent how fast you can progress through them(raids). These are mechanisms put in place to keep people on a fast track to paying next month’s sub fee. Flight paths vs fast travel systems is another good example, but most aspects of the game will have to take into consideration the chosen business model to varying degrees. Things like leveling speeds, crafting, gear acquisition, etc.

Business model, especially in a genre such as MMOs which have ongoing development through their entire lifespan, will always affect the game’s content. Consumers simply have to “pick their poison” so to speak.

Arewn.2368:

Yes really. For arguments sake, we’ll pretend that sub fee games afford you full access to everything while paying the sub (even though that’s not really the case anymore. Many sub games now have cash shops and payed services on top of the sub, and xpacs on top of sub have always been common). But that doesn’t mean the sub fee doesn’t affect development.
A game with a sub fee has to incentives players to return and pay each month. Take WoW as an example. What do you see in that game’s content? a large list of daily quests/daily quest hubs that take several weeks of repetition and slow unlocking to get through and that have many rewards centered around them, main currency(s) with extended time barriers, and lockouts of dungeons and raids that restrict not only how fast you can get rewards, but also by extent how fast you can progress through them(raids). These are mechanisms put in place to keep people on a fast track to paying next month’s sub fee. Flight paths vs fast travel systems is another good example, but most aspects of the game will have to take into consideration the chosen business model to varying degrees. Things like leveling speeds, crafting, gear acquisition, etc.

Business model, especially in a genre such as MMOs which have ongoing development through their entire lifespan, will always affect the game’s content. Consumers simply have to “pick their poison” so to speak.

That’s debatable. It can just as easily be argued that time-gated reward systems are in place to keep people playing the game (which doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with monthly subs and everything to do with having a large, active playerbase).

An MMO has to incentivize players to keep returning, period. Some examples in GW2 and it isn’t even a sub game: Daily reward chests from world bosses, time-gated crafting materials for ascended items.

The main drawback of the sub model is the sheer number of people who simply can’t afford to pay $15 a month, or don’t want to. And the fact that when people with lots of money want to throw money at the company, they more or less can’t.

Labjax.2465:

That’s debatable. It can just as easily be argued that time-gated reward systems are in place to keep people playing the game (which doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with monthly subs and everything to do with having a large, active playerbase).

An MMO has to incentivize players to keep returning, period. Some examples in GW2 and it isn’t even a sub game: Daily reward chests from world bosses, time-gated crafting materials for ascended items.

The main drawback of the sub model is the sheer number of people who simply can’t afford to pay $15 a month, or don’t want to. And the fact that when people with lots of money want to throw money at the company, they more or less can’t.

You may find points of contention for my individual examples, but the fundamental assertion is not “debatable”, it’s a reality.
Business models have varying effects on the development of the game. Devs of various titles have brought this up, and you can (as I just did) evaluate it for yourself on a game per game basis.

You mentioned the time gated and daily stuff from GW2, but this is very different from WoW’s setup. In GW2 these are optional time sinks that are unnecessary to your ability to participate in and complete content, but in WoW they are a progression requirements that will literally stop you from seeing content passed a certain point based on you/your groups item level (this being more so the case in the past then now, but is still present)
I would also argue against your assertion that people being unable to afford 15/month sub fee is “the main drawback”. It falls much more into the category of “don’t want to”. It’s all about value. Why pay 15/month for a game when something else is offering just as much without the forced expenditure.
It’s true that all MMOs have to get people to keep returning, but how they do it, and for what reasons, and around what schedule, will vary based on a number of factors which include business model.

Arewn.2368:

You may find points of contention for my individual examples, but the fundamental assertion is not “debatable”, it’s a reality.
Business models have varying effects on the development of the game. Devs of various titles have brought this up, and you can (as I just did) evaluate it for yourself on a game per game basis.

You mentioned the time gated and daily stuff from GW2, but this is very different from WoW’s setup. In GW2 these are optional time sinks that are unnecessary to your ability to participate in and complete content, but in WoW they are a progression requirements that will literally stop you from seeing content passed a certain point based on you/your groups item level (this being more so the case in the past then now, but is still present)
I would also argue against your assertion that people being unable to afford 15/month sub fee is “the main drawback”. It falls much more into the category of “don’t want to”. It’s all about value. Why pay 15/month for a game when something else is offering just as much without the forced expenditure.
It’s true that all MMOs have to get people to keep returning, but how they do it, and for what reasons, and around what schedule, will vary based on a number of factors which include business model.

My wording might be a bit unclear, but the point is that a sub fee is a barrier. See what Scott Hartsman says here about the old sub models: http://www.sramanamitra.com/2014/09/01/thought-leaders-in-online-gaming-scott-hartsman-ceo-of-trion-worlds-part-2/

We started to see that the economic issues globally caused that barrier to become an even bigger problem. In terms of customer behavior, players started migrating with their friends in packs. What would happen is players would all go play the games that all of their friends could go play. The greater the barrier up front, the less likely it would be for a group of players to adopt your game. This very much impacted the kinds of games we were making at that time, which were big, synchronous MMOs where the success depended on having a large group of friends to play with.

Anyway, I’m not trying to say that the sub business model has no impact on gameplay, ever, in any way, shape, or form. I’m saying that putting it up against free-to-play and the ways in which gameplay gets impacted by cash shops is an absurd comparison. For the latter, the effects are a pitfall of potential errors that you have to constantly tiptoe around. For the former, the major affects (such as the ones you were naming) can also be attributed to regular game design.

Arewn.2368:

Devs of various titles have brought this up

I would like to see some examples of this from devs, pertaining to sub models.