*sigh*
I post here with an opinion about the [sarcasm] obviously perfect [/sarcasm] Trading Post in the same thread that John Smith replied to. And then I get pounced by all of his blind sycophants. How did I not see this coming?
When the Hunt brothers cornered the market on silver (real world, as in bars of the metal for industrial use) a generation ago, the exchange simply changed the rules in a way that no longer let them buy, only sell.
I have no problem with people being traders who bring liquidity to the market and stability to prices. What I do have a problem with is people who buy up all of a particular item, then triple (or worse) the price. Even though it’s game wide across all servers, the market is thin enough that with even a few gold of capital it seems possible to do this for, say, the boots or helmet of a popular level 47 armor set.
I’d like the game to detect “corner the market” behavior, and block the account from further purchases of that item for a week. Further, at 5 or 10 such blocks the account should be blocked from selling anything on the TP for, say, 2 weeks.
To avoid tripping the detection on a legitimate market maker’s buy-sell spread, detection should allow resale at up to 1.5x the purchase price (probably need a bit of experimentation to get this number correct).
*sigh*
I post here with an opinion about the [sarcasm] obviously perfect [/sarcasm] Trading Post in the same thread that John Smith replied to. And then I get pounced by all of his blind sycophants. How did I not see this coming?
LOL no one is being John Smiths “Blind Sycophant” ( will other than Pocahontas, but then that’s another story)
Your statement that trading is basically stealing is just a tad naive to put it politely.
*sigh*
I post here with an opinion about the [sarcasm] obviously perfect [/sarcasm] Trading Post in the same thread that John Smith replied to. And then I get pounced by all of his blind sycophants. How did I not see this coming?
LOL no one is being John Smiths “Blind Sycophant” ( will other than Pocahontas, but then that’s another story)
Your statement that trading is basically stealing is just a tad naive to put it politely.
Trading is not. Flipping is. It is siphoning money out of the system and returning nothing in the way of value. It is purely leeching off of the system. So yes, stealing.
Some of us refuse to abuse the market in such a way. Flipping items and basically stealing gold from players who actually need the items should not be far more profitable than anything else in the game.
If my items don’t sell after a week or two I tend to have a fire sale. I just sell to the highest bidder to get some gold back. I know what I’m doing.
In other words “Girrrrrrl, you crahzay”.
If you think flipping is stealing, you really have no clue how the market works.
If you think flipping is stealing, you really have no clue how the market works.
It’s funny how flippers love to use the same excuse over and over to justify themselves, without being capable of providing any argument.
If you think flipping is stealing, you really have no clue how the market works.
It’s funny how flippers love to use the same excuse over and over to justify themselves, without being capable of providing any argument.
Who said I wanted to give you an argument? I’m probably flipping your stuff right now.
Well probably not, I tend to deal in things with value :P <——me trying to sound like a big shot. I really don’t make much profit in most of my flips.
Flipping always brings around more flippers, which just kills the profit to where it’s no longer worth it after a bit. Undercutting brings the prices down too low, so you’re welcome.
(edited by Tamaki Revolution.3548)
the tp is fine as it is now.
dun fix what is not broken.
These threads are amusing, to be sure, but there is no need to attack other players over their opinions. One of the biggest benefits to having a professional economist in charge of the TP is that changes will not be made because of assumptions or blind panic, but on the basis of real data interpreted through knowledge and experience.
*sigh*
I post here with an opinion about the [sarcasm] obviously perfect [/sarcasm] Trading Post in the same thread that John Smith replied to. And then I get pounced by all of his blind sycophants. How did I not see this coming?
LOL no one is being John Smiths “Blind Sycophant” ( will other than Pocahontas, but then that’s another story)
Your statement that trading is basically stealing is just a tad naive to put it politely.
Trading is not. Flipping is. It is siphoning money out of the system and returning nothing in the way of value. It is purely leeching off of the system. So yes, stealing.
It’s a sink. It is taking money out of the market, but doesn’t mean it returns nothing. Money comes from no where in this game and we need the sink to keep everything in place. Imagine your government keep printing bills……at the end those will worth less than toilet paper.
Also, flipping != monopoly. Although flipper wants a large profit margin, what they do is actually reducing it, driving the price down. Casual player will benefit from the lower price.
One of the biggest benefits to having a professional economist in charge of the TP is that changes will not be made because of assumptions or blind panic, but on the basis of real data interpreted through knowledge and experience.
Unless his tears blind him.
*sigh*
I post here with an opinion about the [sarcasm] obviously perfect [/sarcasm] Trading Post in the same thread that John Smith replied to. And then I get pounced by all of his blind sycophants. How did I not see this coming?
LOL no one is being John Smiths “Blind Sycophant” ( will other than Pocahontas, but then that’s another story)
Your statement that trading is basically stealing is just a tad naive to put it politely.
Trading is not. Flipping is. It is siphoning money out of the system and returning nothing in the way of value. It is purely leeching off of the system. So yes, stealing.
When an item is put up for sale, the seller does it with his/her own volition. When an item is purchased, the buyer does it with his/her own volition. Nothing is taken by force, no stealing takes place. One is not entitled to an object at any price other than what his/her fellows are willing to sell it for, and one is not entitled to a given worth of an object other than what his/her fellows are willing to buy it for.
Edit: Adding to what Afya said, the practical use of competitive flipping is to drive prices to where profit margins are only worth the cost of doing business.
(edited by Nevets Crimsonwing.5271)
Yeah too bad it seems they cannot seperate the fact this is a videogame and not a real life market.
Some of us refuse to abuse the market in such a way. Flipping items and basically stealing gold from players who actually need the items should not be far more profitable than anything else in the game.
If my items don’t sell after a week or two I tend to have a fire sale. I just sell to the highest bidder to get some gold back. I know what I’m doing.
In other words “Girrrrrrl, you crahzay”.
If you think flipping is stealing, you really have no clue how the market works.
Untrue. I know exactly how it works. I just disagree with how it does and think the current practices are wrong.
It’s not ignorance. It’s ideology.
Trading is not. Flipping is. It is siphoning money out of the system and returning nothing in the way of value. It is purely leeching off of the system. So yes, stealing.
It’s a sink. It is taking money out of the market, but doesn’t mean it returns nothing. Money comes from no where in this game and we need the sink to keep everything in place. Imagine your government keep printing bills……at the end those will worth less than toilet paper.
Also, flipping != monopoly. Although flipper wants a large profit margin, what they do is actually reducing it, driving the price down. Casual player will benefit from the lower price.
Yes. You’re right. it is a sink. But you’re wrong in that it returns something. It doesn’t. The only benefit is to the flipper. It is a net negative to everyone else. Money leaves the system into the pocket of the flipper, of whom contributed absolutely nothing to the interaction or to the economy. Flippers are the leeches of the system.
And I not once claimed it was a monopoly. Although those have occurred on several items in the past, I made no such claim here. But flippers do not lower prices. They raise them.
Some of us refuse to abuse the market in such a way. Flipping items and basically stealing gold from players who actually need the items should not be far more profitable than anything else in the game.
If my items don’t sell after a week or two I tend to have a fire sale. I just sell to the highest bidder to get some gold back. I know what I’m doing.
In other words “Girrrrrrl, you crahzay”.
If you think flipping is stealing, you really have no clue how the market works.
Untrue. I know exactly how it works. I just disagree with how it does and think the current practices are wrong.
It’s not ignorance. It’s ideology.
Trading is not. Flipping is. It is siphoning money out of the system and returning nothing in the way of value. It is purely leeching off of the system. So yes, stealing.
It’s a sink. It is taking money out of the market, but doesn’t mean it returns nothing. Money comes from no where in this game and we need the sink to keep everything in place. Imagine your government keep printing bills……at the end those will worth less than toilet paper.
Also, flipping != monopoly. Although flipper wants a large profit margin, what they do is actually reducing it, driving the price down. Casual player will benefit from the lower price.
Yes. You’re right. it is a sink. But you’re wrong in that it returns something. It doesn’t. The only benefit is to the flipper. It is a net negative to everyone else. Money leaves the system into the pocket of the flipper, of whom contributed absolutely nothing to the interaction or to the economy. Flippers are the leeches of the system.
And I not once claimed it was a monopoly. Although those have occurred on several items in the past, I made no such claim here. But flippers do not lower prices. They raise them.
In your “Ideology” How do flippers raise the prices?
Some of us refuse to abuse the market in such a way. Flipping items and basically stealing gold from players who actually need the items should not be far more profitable than anything else in the game.
If my items don’t sell after a week or two I tend to have a fire sale. I just sell to the highest bidder to get some gold back. I know what I’m doing.
In other words “Girrrrrrl, you crahzay”.
If you think flipping is stealing, you really have no clue how the market works.
Untrue. I know exactly how it works. I just disagree with how it does and think the current practices are wrong.
It’s not ignorance. It’s ideology.
Trading is not. Flipping is. It is siphoning money out of the system and returning nothing in the way of value. It is purely leeching off of the system. So yes, stealing.
It’s a sink. It is taking money out of the market, but doesn’t mean it returns nothing. Money comes from no where in this game and we need the sink to keep everything in place. Imagine your government keep printing bills……at the end those will worth less than toilet paper.
Also, flipping != monopoly. Although flipper wants a large profit margin, what they do is actually reducing it, driving the price down. Casual player will benefit from the lower price.
Yes. You’re right. it is a sink. But you’re wrong in that it returns something. It doesn’t. The only benefit is to the flipper. It is a net negative to everyone else. Money leaves the system into the pocket of the flipper, of whom contributed absolutely nothing to the interaction or to the economy. Flippers are the leeches of the system.
And I not once claimed it was a monopoly. Although those have occurred on several items in the past, I made no such claim here. But flippers do not lower prices. They raise them.
A flipper wants to make as much money as fast as possible. Imagine a second flipper, competing with the first for the same items. To make lots of money faster than the first flipper, the second flipper puts in buy orders slightly higher than the first flipper (better for the general populous selling the items) and sells the items at a slightly lower price than the first flipper (better for the general populous buying the items.)
I’m guessing you’re thinking of the items with very little volume such as precursors. Despite Arenanet stating that the precursor marker is NOT being controlled by a few people, think about the sheer amount of gold required to corner that market, and the slow rate of sales because so few people have the gold to purchase those items. Even if someone had a monopoly on pres, they couldn’t do anything with the monopoly because the vast majority of people are simply not capable of purchasing the items at ridiculous prices.
Playing the market is a mini-game, and can be just as fun as the actual game to some of us, regardless of the MMO. Now I think some people seriously can’t tell the difference between flipping an item, and buying all of an item up in bulk to relist at a higher price.
A little friendly market pvp might not exactly “help” others, but it’s not harming buyers either. It may mess with sellers for a bit :P
In your “Ideology” How do flippers raise the prices?
It’s my ideology that all current economic theory is flawed and contributed to the global economic crash as it is fed off of pure unadulterated greed. And this game modelling it’s economics off of modern-day real-world economics is a complete failure as it does not reward actually playing the game a fraction as much as abusing the mechanics of flipping and controlling markets on the TP.
When a game does not reward as much for actually playing the game itself as it does for flipping items in a market, the system is flawed.
That is, of course, my opinion. You are welcome to yours, but I will not agree with it, just as you probably think mine is flawed.
Playing the market is a mini-game, and can be just as fun as the actual game to some of us, regardless of the MMO. Now I think some people seriously can’t tell the difference between flipping an item, and buying all of an item up in bulk to relist at a higher price.
A little friendly market pvp might not exactly “help” others, but it’s not harming buyers either. It may mess with sellers for a bit :P
Normal players are both buyers and sellers, so yes, you are harming them. And I’ve yet to meet someone who flips who doesn’t do it in bulk.
(edited by SynfulChaot.3169)
Normal players are both buyers and sellers, so yes, you are harming them. And I’ve yet to meet someone who flips who doesn’t do it in bulk.
I don’t flip in bulk. I deal in exotics :| I’m not a power trader, just a lowly flipper-man.
In your “Ideology” How do flippers raise the prices?
It’s my ideology that all current economic theory is flawed and contributed to the global economic crakitten is fed off of pure unadulterated greed. And this game modelling it’s economics off of modern-day real-world economics is a complete failure as it does not reward actually playing the game a fraction as much as abusing the mechanics of flipping and controlling markets on the TP.
When a game does not reward as much for actually playing the game itself as it does for flipping items in a market, the system is flawed.
That is, of course, my opinion. You are welcome to yours, but I will not agree with it, just as you probably think mine is flawed.
Playing the market is a mini-game, and can be just as fun as the actual game to some of us, regardless of the MMO. Now I think some people seriously can’t tell the difference between flipping an item, and buying all of an item up in bulk to relist at a higher price.
A little friendly market pvp might not exactly “help” others, but it’s not harming buyers either. It may mess with sellers for a bit :P
Normal players are both buyers and sellers, so yes, you are harming them. And I’ve yet to meet someone who flips who doesn’t do it in bulk.
You ignored my post completely. Can you please argue against my points where I stated that flipping actually serves a price setting purpose and is good for buyers and sellers in the general populous?
You ignored my post completely. Can you please argue against my points where I stated that flipping actually serves a price setting purpose and is good for buyers and sellers in the general populous?
I hadn’t gotten to it yet. Patience.
A flipper wants to make as much money as fast as possible. Imagine a second flipper, competing with the first for the same items. To make lots of money faster than the first flipper, the second flipper puts in buy orders slightly higher than the first flipper (better for the general populous selling the items) and sells the items at a slightly lower price than the first flipper (better for the general populous buying the items.)
I’m guessing you’re thinking of the items with very little volume such as precursors. Despite Arenanet stating that the precursor marker is NOT being controlled by a few people, think about the sheer amount of gold required to corner that market, and the slow rate of sales because so few people have the gold to purchase those items. Even if someone had a monopoly on pres, they couldn’t do anything with the monopoly because the vast majority of people are simply not capable of purchasing the items at ridiculous prices.
Flippers are still draining money out of the economy without returning anything in the way of value. And that minute undercutting in bulk is cutting of the sales of players who listed at decent prices, directly harming them. And it does not lower prices by more than a copper or two and for very short periods of time. So no, still a net negative.
And no, again, I’m talking of far more than precursors. I’m talking also of T6 mats, lodestones, cores, etc. And again, I never once mentioned monopolies.
I’m not speaking from ignorance here. Please do not assume I am.
Normal players are both buyers and sellers, so yes, you are harming them. And I’ve yet to meet someone who flips who doesn’t do it in bulk.
I don’t flip in bulk. I deal in exotics :| I’m not a power trader, just a lowly flipper-man.
Then I find less wrong with what you do, but I still don’t find it right.
Do you sleep with your money stuffed between your mattresses by chance?
You ignored my post completely. Can you please argue against my points where I stated that flipping actually serves a price setting purpose and is good for buyers and sellers in the general populous?
I hadn’t gotten to it yet. Patience.
A flipper wants to make as much money as fast as possible. Imagine a second flipper, competing with the first for the same items. To make lots of money faster than the first flipper, the second flipper puts in buy orders slightly higher than the first flipper (better for the general populous selling the items) and sells the items at a slightly lower price than the first flipper (better for the general populous buying the items.)
I’m guessing you’re thinking of the items with very little volume such as precursors. Despite Arenanet stating that the precursor marker is NOT being controlled by a few people, think about the sheer amount of gold required to corner that market, and the slow rate of sales because so few people have the gold to purchase those items. Even if someone had a monopoly on pres, they couldn’t do anything with the monopoly because the vast majority of people are simply not capable of purchasing the items at ridiculous prices.
Flippers are still draining money out of the economy without returning anything in the way of value. And that minute undercutting in bulk is cutting of the sales of players who listed at decent prices, directly harming them. And it does not lower prices by more than a copper or two and for very short periods of time. So no, still a net negative.
And no, again, I’m talking of far more than precursors. I’m talking also of T6 mats, lodestones, cores, etc. And again, I never once mentioned monopolies.
I’m not speaking from ignorance here. Please do not assume I am.
Normal players are both buyers and sellers, so yes, you are harming them. And I’ve yet to meet someone who flips who doesn’t do it in bulk.
I don’t flip in bulk. I deal in exotics :| I’m not a power trader, just a lowly flipper-man.
Then I find less wrong with what you do, but I still don’t find it right.
You may have negated your own ideology there
@SynfulChaot: While I sort of agree with you in that I don’t believe that flippers really provide a “service” to the rest of the community, they do support one of the goals of the TP in that with each transaction they make with other players, they incur the listing/sales fee and thus drain money from the economy. This money doesn’t go to the flippers; it gets removed from the game completely, and is an essential component of keeping inflation in GW2 in check.
Now, the successful flippers price their items in a way that they still come out ahead in the end, so yes, in that regard they are just “leeching” off the system. I’m no more a fan of this than you are, but unless flippers actually try and create a stranglehold on certain goods, they aren’t actually harming the economy as a whole.
And if they DO try and create a monopoly, I have confidence enough in ANet that they will take steps to rectify it since such a monopoly is not conducive or helpful to the wider player base. This isn’t EVE Online, where such strategems is an INTENDED part of the gameplay. If flippers ever got such a hold on the market that they were effectively choking off supply, you can bet that ANet would intervene by increasing drop rates or introducing new ways to get the item again.
Why should people be punished for being smart?
Grinding isn’t fun, and it doesn’t require you to think. On the other hand, trading is somewhat more proportional to one’s knowledge and skill at a complex, multi-faceted task. Diss the traders all you like, but it still takes more skill than whacking mobs or grinding CoF/CoE all day long.
You ignored my post completely. Can you please argue against my points where I stated that flipping actually serves a price setting purpose and is good for buyers and sellers in the general populous?
I hadn’t gotten to it yet. Patience.
A flipper wants to make as much money as fast as possible. Imagine a second flipper, competing with the first for the same items. To make lots of money faster than the first flipper, the second flipper puts in buy orders slightly higher than the first flipper (better for the general populous selling the items) and sells the items at a slightly lower price than the first flipper (better for the general populous buying the items.)
I’m guessing you’re thinking of the items with very little volume such as precursors. Despite Arenanet stating that the precursor marker is NOT being controlled by a few people, think about the sheer amount of gold required to corner that market, and the slow rate of sales because so few people have the gold to purchase those items. Even if someone had a monopoly on pres, they couldn’t do anything with the monopoly because the vast majority of people are simply not capable of purchasing the items at ridiculous prices.
Flippers are still draining money out of the economy without returning anything in the way of value. And that minute undercutting in bulk is cutting of the sales of players who listed at decent prices, directly harming them. And it does not lower prices by more than a copper or two and for very short periods of time. So no, still a net negative.
And no, again, I’m talking of far more than precursors. I’m talking also of T6 mats, lodestones, cores, etc. And again, I never once mentioned monopolies.
I’m not speaking from ignorance here. Please do not assume I am.
Normal players are both buyers and sellers, so yes, you are harming them. And I’ve yet to meet someone who flips who doesn’t do it in bulk.
I don’t flip in bulk. I deal in exotics :| I’m not a power trader, just a lowly flipper-man.
Then I find less wrong with what you do, but I still don’t find it right.
Hey, not assuming you’re speaking from ignorance, just trying to understand your logic by having a reasonable discussion.
What do you mean flipping drains money out of the economy? Do you mean the profits earned by the flippers are not in the hands of the general populous anymore? Do you mean flipping concentrates money?
I think that the price setting feature of flipping has an inherent value that you’re brushing aside as inconsequential.
You wrote: “And that minute undercutting in bulk is cutting of the sales of players who listed at decent prices, directly harming them”
Why is your definition of “decent” the right one? If thousands of players can buy said item at a cheaper price, can you discount their net benefit?
You wrote: “And it does not lower prices by more than a copper or two and for very short periods of time. So no, still a net negative.”
Remember that if an item is flipped in bulk, that copper or two adds up fast. Suppose 10,000 items are sold at a 1 copper discount. That means that the buyers saved a net of 1 gold. Across multiple items this value saved quickly adds up. Also, I don’t think your assessment of the value being reduced for a short period of time is always accurate. Everyone can look at GW2spidy.com and see points where rampant speculation and attempts at flipping lead to a large and short term spike in the cost of a good, but not all the flippers will “win” during those times, and in addition, with large volume items it’s nearly impossible for one person to “hold up” the price like you’re claiming. They have to keep buying all the items that get relisted for lower values, and keep relisting at higher values. No one has the capital to keep that up for very long. As for T6 mats and more valuable items, the volume may be lower, but the cost is higher, and that is prohibitive in itself.
— snip —
And that minute undercutting in bulk is cutting of the sales of players who listed at decent prices, directly harming them. And it does not lower prices by more than a copper or two and for very short periods of time.
-- snip —You may have negated your own ideology there
I have negated nothing there. There is nothing wrong with selling items you have acquired though actual play. There is, however, a problem with buying items solely to sell them back at a higher price.
Hey, not assuming you’re speaking from ignorance, just trying to understand your logic by having a reasonable discussion.
What do you mean flipping drains money out of the economy? Do you mean the profits earned by the flippers are not in the hands of the general populous anymore? Do you mean flipping concentrates money?
It concentrates money out of the hands of those that just play the game and into the hands of those that flip items, which normally goes back to flip even more items.
I think that the price setting feature of flipping has an inherent value that you’re brushing aside as inconsequential.
I don’t.
You wrote: “And that minute undercutting in bulk is cutting of the sales of players who listed at decent prices, directly harming them”
Why is your definition of “decent” the right one? If thousands of players can buy said item at a cheaper price, can you discount their net benefit?
At a barely lower price that they could get lower if they put in a buy offer. A buy offer that is now higher than it would be otherwise as the flippers are raising the buy offers, which is where the real savings occur.
You wrote: “And it does not lower prices by more than a copper or two and for very short periods of time. So no, still a net negative.”
Remember that if an item is flipped in bulk, that copper or two adds up fast. Suppose 10,000 items are sold at a 1 copper discount. That means that the buyers saved a net of 1 gold. Across multiple items this value saved quickly adds up. Also, I don’t think your assessment of the value being reduced for a short period of time is always accurate. Everyone can look at GW2spidy.com and see points where rampant speculation and attempts at flipping lead to a large and short term spike in the cost of a good, but not all the flippers will “win” during those times, and in addition, with large volume items it’s nearly impossible for one person to “hold up” the price like you’re claiming. They have to keep buying all the items that get relisted for lower values, and keep relisting at higher values. No one has the capital to keep that up for very long. As for T6 mats and more valuable items, the volume may be lower, but the cost is higher, and that is prohibitive in itself.
Those speculative spikes hurt all players that aren’t flippers. Yes, not all will win. But the end result of those spikes is that many players pay far more than they should have to just so some can make money at their expense.
And yet again, I’ve not once made any mention of monopolistic behaviour.
the flipping issue aside the real point of the OP, is that gathering of money directly via killing and gathering is monitored and limited, however, the gathering of gold via TP is not.
Essentially this means while gold growth through even hardcore non tp play will flatten out per time spent, money earned through tp has no such limit.
This means TP playing is the best way to earn gold. this also means, the rate of growth of money through tp play will outshine all other game play. The rarest or best items prices will be determined by the richest, and the gap will only grow.
this is a problem.
This problem is compounded by the random nature of item aquisition, (by random i dont just mean the fact you dont know whether it will drop, but mostly that you dont have many ways to actively seek any one item) this means you almost always have to go to market to get an item you want instead of hunting it.
Essentially yes no matter what john smith says, the growing disparity in earnings between tp players and people who play the game directly is a real problem, and it will get worse as the game continues.
Hey, not assuming you’re speaking from ignorance, just trying to understand your logic by having a reasonable discussion.
What do you mean flipping drains money out of the economy? Do you mean the profits earned by the flippers are not in the hands of the general populous anymore? Do you mean flipping concentrates money?
It concentrates money out of the hands of those that just play the game and into the hands of those that flip items, which normally goes back to flip even more items.
I think that the price setting feature of flipping has an inherent value that you’re brushing aside as inconsequential.
I don’t.
You wrote: “And that minute undercutting in bulk is cutting of the sales of players who listed at decent prices, directly harming them”
Why is your definition of “decent” the right one? If thousands of players can buy said item at a cheaper price, can you discount their net benefit?
At a barely lower price that they could get lower if they put in a buy offer. A buy offer that is now higher than it would be otherwise as the flippers are raising the buy offers, which is where the real savings occur.
You wrote: “And it does not lower prices by more than a copper or two and for very short periods of time. So no, still a net negative.”
Remember that if an item is flipped in bulk, that copper or two adds up fast. Suppose 10,000 items are sold at a 1 copper discount. That means that the buyers saved a net of 1 gold. Across multiple items this value saved quickly adds up. Also, I don’t think your assessment of the value being reduced for a short period of time is always accurate. Everyone can look at GW2spidy.com and see points where rampant speculation and attempts at flipping lead to a large and short term spike in the cost of a good, but not all the flippers will “win” during those times, and in addition, with large volume items it’s nearly impossible for one person to “hold up” the price like you’re claiming. They have to keep buying all the items that get relisted for lower values, and keep relisting at higher values. No one has the capital to keep that up for very long. As for T6 mats and more valuable items, the volume may be lower, but the cost is higher, and that is prohibitive in itself.
Those speculative spikes hurt all players that aren’t flippers. Yes, not all will win. But the end result of those spikes is that many players pay far more than they should have to just so some can make money at their expense.
And yet again, I’ve not once made any mention of monopolistic behaviour.
You wrote: “At a barely lower price that they could get lower if they put in a buy offer. A buy offer that is now higher than it would be otherwise as the flippers are raising the buy offers, which is where the real savings occur.”
Aha! Now we’re getting somewhere. So you acknowledge that flipping pushes the sell orders down and the buy orders up, reducing the profit margin that people can make on most items. More competition drives down prices, and drives up buy orders. We can go in circles all day about who benefits from this, but at the end of the day that’s what happens. Your argument that buyers are losing out when the buy orders increase I think is self-defeating. You want sellers, including those who earn the items normally, to sell at a price lower than what another individual is willing to pay?
You wrote: “But the end result of those spikes is that many players pay far more than they should have to just so some can make money at their expense.”
What do you mean “at their expense?” Are your “many players” choosing to pay the increased amount out of their own free will? Is the exchange of their money at the speculation cost for an item given freely and without coercion? If the answer is yes, then the trade was made honestly with consent from both parties and no one is being “ripped off.” No one is forcing the buyer to purchase goods at the higher price.
the flipping issue aside the real point of the OP, is that gathering of money directly via killing and gathering is monitored and limited, however, the gathering of gold via TP is not.
Essentially this means while gold growth through even hardcore non tp play will flatten out per time spent, money earned through tp has no such limit.This means TP playing is the best way to earn gold. this also means, the rate of growth of money through tp play will outshine all other game play. The rarest or best items prices will be determined by the richest, and the gap will only grow.
this is a problem.
This problem is compounded by the random nature of item aquisition, (by random i dont just mean the fact you dont know whether it will drop, but mostly that you dont have many ways to actively seek any one item) this means you almost always have to go to market to get an item you want instead of hunting it.
Essentially yes no matter what john smith says, the growing disparity in earnings between tp players and people who play the game directly is a real problem, and it will get worse as the game continues.
First, tp players are still playing the game directly. Second, as more people play the trading post, profit margins will go down. Third, your argument is that the wealth gap is a problem because the wealthy will buy up all the “special” items that everyone wants and you can’t actively seek out items aside from buying from those evil manipulators. Besides most desired armor and weapon sets being purchasable from dungeon vendors, and most other “cool” sets being purchasable on the BLTC, the only “special” items which are really that random and hard to work towards are precursors, and ANet has said that market is not being controlled.
You wrote: “At a barely lower price that they could get lower if they put in a buy offer. A buy offer that is now higher than it would be otherwise as the flippers are raising the buy offers, which is where the real savings occur.”
Aha! Now we’re getting somewhere. So you acknowledge that flipping pushes the sell orders down and the buy orders up, reducing the profit margin that people can make on most items. More competition drives down prices, and drives up buy orders. We can go in circles all day about who benefits from this, but at the end of the day that’s what happens. Your argument that buyers are losing out when the buy orders increase I think is self-defeating. You want sellers, including those who earn the items normally, to sell at a price lower than what another individual is willing to pay?
Yes. I already stated that it did, but by so small a margin that it’s practically insignificant. And part of the result of that is affecting buy orders by people who actually want the items for themselves to use instead of to flip.
And no, buyers and sellers should set their offers where they think is best. People will buy the more decently priced things and prices will normalize. Flippers just mess with the process and siphon money away from those that just want to sell/buy stuff for themselves.
You wrote: “But the end result of those spikes is that many players pay far more than they should have to just so some can make money at their expense.”
What do you mean “at their expense?” Are your “many players” choosing to pay the increased amount out of their own free will? Is the exchange of their money at the speculation cost for an item given freely and without coercion? If the answer is yes, then the trade was made honestly with consent from both parties and no one is being “ripped off.” No one is forcing the buyer to purchase goods at the higher price.
Yes. They choose to buy the item because they are seeking the item. There is consent, but only because that may be the only way for those players to get the item. Don’t confuse people purchasing things with agreement that the prices are good. That is a severe logical fallacy there.
Just because they are not being strong-armed does not mean that they are not being ripped off.
the flipping issue aside the real point of the OP, is that gathering of money directly via killing and gathering is monitored and limited, however, the gathering of gold via TP is not.
Essentially this means while gold growth through even hardcore non tp play will flatten out per time spent, money earned through tp has no such limit.This means TP playing is the best way to earn gold. this also means, the rate of growth of money through tp play will outshine all other game play. The rarest or best items prices will be determined by the richest, and the gap will only grow.
this is a problem.
This problem is compounded by the random nature of item aquisition, (by random i dont just mean the fact you dont know whether it will drop, but mostly that you dont have many ways to actively seek any one item) this means you almost always have to go to market to get an item you want instead of hunting it.
Essentially yes no matter what john smith says, the growing disparity in earnings between tp players and people who play the game directly is a real problem, and it will get worse as the game continues.
thank you…someone gets it
You ignored my post completely. Can you please argue against my points where I stated that flipping actually serves a price setting purpose and is good for buyers and sellers in the general populous?
[/quote]
theres a basic principle of things, you dont get something for nothing.
Every single copper that a flipper makes comes directly from another player, they create no actual value, they merely siphon it.
let me restate it.
A flipper makes money by buying an item from a supplier for less than its worth
and selling it to a consumer for as much as a consumer is willing to pay.
by the nature of this process, on the whole, they can not be helping people get more value for their items gathered, and they cannot be getting the item to the consumer cheaper than they could. It goes against the mathematical nature of how exactly a flipper makes profit.
Now, best case scenario you can say a flipper increases the velocity of transactions, but really, ehhh probably of limited use. Aside from the inter flipper gambling that happens, every transaction they make thats not just a flipping competition is to someone who would have bought an item anyhow.
lets say every item that was bought on the TP was account bound, how would that really effect the market?
is the whatever lost by doing that worth the problems that flipping can bring?
this is a serious question people should ask themselves. If you are not a flipper, you essentially almost never by an item you dont need, or cant make into something else. it would actually have no effect on you at all.
People who play the TP would now have to actually buy things of less value and turn them into things of higher value to get money(its actually rare that you can do this, which is another problem)
anyhow, regardless, there is a problem in fact that money earnable via playing the game, even to a hardcore level, doesnt really compare with the amount of money one can earn through the tp
the flipping issue aside the real point of the OP, is that gathering of money directly via killing and gathering is monitored and limited, however, the gathering of gold via TP is not.
Essentially this means while gold growth through even hardcore non tp play will flatten out per time spent, money earned through tp has no such limit.This means TP playing is the best way to earn gold. this also means, the rate of growth of money through tp play will outshine all other game play. The rarest or best items prices will be determined by the richest, and the gap will only grow.
this is a problem.
This problem is compounded by the random nature of item aquisition, (by random i dont just mean the fact you dont know whether it will drop, but mostly that you dont have many ways to actively seek any one item) this means you almost always have to go to market to get an item you want instead of hunting it.
Essentially yes no matter what john smith says, the growing disparity in earnings between tp players and people who play the game directly is a real problem, and it will get worse as the game continues.
First, tp players are still playing the game directly. Second, as more people play the trading post, profit margins will go down. Third, your argument is that the wealth gap is a problem because the wealthy will buy up all the “special” items that everyone wants and you can’t actively seek out items aside from buying from those evil manipulators. Besides most desired armor and weapon sets being purchasable from dungeon vendors, and most other “cool” sets being purchasable on the BLTC, the only “special” items which are really that random and hard to work towards are precursors, and ANet has said that market is not being controlled.
As long as there are enough players profiting off the tp at elevated levels creating demand that outnumber the supply of a certain item, that item will be priced according to that wealth. This directly puts such items out of reach of all other players who do not participate in said activity.
Why should people be punished for being smart?
Cause the game isn’t an economic simulator or even a sandbox. The TP should be there to support the actual game, but it doesn’t.
Message Body length must be less than 5001. This is for SynfulChaot.3169.
You wrote: "Yes. I already stated that it did, but by so small a margin that it’s practically insignificant. And part of the result of that is affecting buy orders by people who actually want the items for themselves to use instead of to flip.
And no, buyers and sellers should set their offers where they think is best. People will buy the more decently priced things and prices will normalize. Flippers just mess with the process and siphon money away from those that just want to sell/buy stuff for themselves."
Margins become significant when items are sold in bulk. Take a valuable metal scrap for example. When a buy order increases from 88 to 90 copper, now all the people getting scraps from the dredge fractal makes lots more money. Then the flipper sells for 1 silver rather than 1 silver and 2 copper. All the people buying scraps for whatever they’re used for benefit. Sure, those using buy orders suffer a bit and those trying to sell for higher prices than what the item is worth can’t anymore, but profit margins are reduced and prices are driven to what is considered “fair” not by you or your cabal think, but by what the general populous thinks.
Not sure what your second paragraph really means, but I’ll try to respond. Flippers serve to normalize prices in a more expedient fashion. They want to make money, so they sell things in bulk, so the price is influenced in bulk. They don’t mess with the process at all. I know what you’re referring to though. Those spikes in the GW2spidy graph for certain items that come out of no where and are seemingly caused by a few people are what you’re describing.
Even those have a purpose though, and we have to look beyond primary effects to see what is actually happening. Suppose someone tries to buy out a million valuable metal scraps, and tries to relist them a higher price. First, he couldn’t do this with buy orders, he’d have to buy out all the sell orders lower than his desired price. Second, the rate at which these items are entering the market is fast enough that he would have to KEEP buying out the sell orders lower than his. It’s really not probable that anyone can do this for an infinite time unless the volume on an item is small. This is why I keep bringing up monopolies. You’re skirting around them, even if you’re not mentioning them directly. I’ll address this in a second.
You wrote: “Yes. They choose to buy the item because they are seeking the item. There is consent, but only because that may be the only way for those players to get the item. Don’t confuse people purchasing things with agreement that the prices are good. That is a severe logical fallacy there.”
No logical fallacy at all. Your consent indicates that to you, prices ARE good enough. You want the item so much that the price IS good enough for you. Everyone wants things for free, but when you agree to pay for an item at a given price, that is your way of consenting to that price. The price is good enough for you.
Now, again, you’re hinting at a monopoly by saying that the players can only get items from the flipper. I noted in above response that the vast majority of items cannot be monopolized and can be obtained by other means. Also, even if someone buys out the entire market of some item like a level 47 pants, this serves a purpose. If one person is making money flipping that object, sooner or later someone else will find out, bringing competition that will help set the price and drive the monopolist out of business. In order to monopolize the entire game, you’d have to have a way to obtain all the drops to all players. Not going to ever happen.
— snip —
I’m not going to bother to respond point-to-point as it is obvious that you don’t seem to get it. That and you’re piling on the fallacies and assumptions. You’re also pulling the conversation off-topic.
Phys, Essence, and morrolan all seem to understand what the underlying problems are. I’m just glad that I’m not alone in knowing that the in-game economy is flawed.
You ignored my post completely. Can you please argue against my points where I stated that flipping actually serves a price setting purpose and is good for buyers and sellers in the general populous?
theres a basic principle of things, you dont get something for nothing.
Every single copper that a flipper makes comes directly from another player, they create no actual value, they merely siphon it.
let me restate it.
A flipper makes money by buying an item from a supplier for less than its worth
and selling it to a consumer for as much as a consumer is willing to pay.
by the nature of this process, on the whole, they can not be helping people get more value for their items gathered, and they cannot be getting the item to the consumer cheaper than they could. It goes against the mathematical nature of how exactly a flipper makes profit.
Now, best case scenario you can say a flipper increases the velocity of transactions, but really, ehhh probably of limited use. Aside from the inter flipper gambling that happens, every transaction they make thats not just a flipping competition is to someone who would have bought an item anyhow.
lets say every item that was bought on the TP was account bound, how would that really effect the market?
is the whatever lost by doing that worth the problems that flipping can bring?
this is a serious question people should ask themselves. If you are not a flipper, you essentially almost never by an item you dont need, or cant make into something else. it would actually have no effect on you at all.
People who play the TP would now have to actually buy things of less value and turn them into things of higher value to get money(its actually rare that you can do this, which is another problem)
anyhow, regardless, there is a problem in fact that money earnable via playing the game, even to a hardcore level, doesnt really compare with the amount of money one can earn through the tp[/quote]
EDIT: MY POST STARTS HERE
You wrote: "Every single copper that a flipper makes comes directly from another player, they create no actual value, they merely siphon it.
let me restate it.
A flipper makes money by buying an item from a supplier for less than its worth
and selling it to a consumer for as much as a consumer is willing to pay."
How can a flipper buy something for less than it’s worth? The supplier is selling the item at a given price, to that seller, the item is worth what the flipper is paying for it. Flippers are creating value, because there is value in price setting.
You wrote: “by the nature of this process, on the whole, they can not be helping people get more value for their items gathered, and they cannot be getting the item to the consumer cheaper than they could. It goes against the mathematical nature of how exactly a flipper makes profit.”
Yes they can. As we’ve already discussed, a flipper will push buy orders higher, giving more money to those that sell to buy orders. The flipper will push sell orders lower, giving more money to those that buy to sell orders.
You wrote: “anyhow, regardless, there is a problem in fact that money earnable via playing the game, even to a hardcore level, doesnt really compare with the amount of money one can earn through the tp”
I addressed this above. I don’t see it as a problem.
(edited by Nevets Crimsonwing.5271)
the flipping issue aside the real point of the OP, is that gathering of money directly via killing and gathering is monitored and limited, however, the gathering of gold via TP is not.
Essentially this means while gold growth through even hardcore non tp play will flatten out per time spent, money earned through tp has no such limit.This means TP playing is the best way to earn gold. this also means, the rate of growth of money through tp play will outshine all other game play. The rarest or best items prices will be determined by the richest, and the gap will only grow.
this is a problem.
This problem is compounded by the random nature of item aquisition, (by random i dont just mean the fact you dont know whether it will drop, but mostly that you dont have many ways to actively seek any one item) this means you almost always have to go to market to get an item you want instead of hunting it.
Essentially yes no matter what john smith says, the growing disparity in earnings between tp players and people who play the game directly is a real problem, and it will get worse as the game continues.
First, tp players are still playing the game directly. Second, as more people play the trading post, profit margins will go down. Third, your argument is that the wealth gap is a problem because the wealthy will buy up all the “special” items that everyone wants and you can’t actively seek out items aside from buying from those evil manipulators. Besides most desired armor and weapon sets being purchasable from dungeon vendors, and most other “cool” sets being purchasable on the BLTC, the only “special” items which are really that random and hard to work towards are precursors, and ANet has said that market is not being controlled.
As long as there are enough players profiting off the tp at elevated levels creating demand that outnumber the supply of a certain item, that item will be priced according to that wealth. This directly puts such items out of reach of all other players who do not participate in said activity.
What happens when demand outnumbers supply? Demanders look elsewhere (the rest of the game) and suppliers lose profit.
— snip —
I’m not going to bother to respond point-to-point as it is obvious that you don’t seem to get it. That and you’re piling on the fallacies and assumptions. You’re also pulling the conversation off-topic.
Phys, Essence, and morrolan all seem to understand what the underlying problems are. I’m just glad that I’m not alone in knowing that the in-game economy is flawed.
Sorry to hear that, nice chatting with you.
EDIT: MY POST STARTS HERE
You wrote: "Every single copper that a flipper makes comes directly from another player, they create no actual value, they merely siphon it.
let me restate it.
A flipper makes money by buying an item from a supplier for less than its worth
and selling it to a consumer for as much as a consumer is willing to pay."How can a flipper buy something for less than it’s worth? The supplier is selling the item at a given price, to that seller, the item is worth what the flipper is paying for it. Flippers are creating value, because there is value in price setting.
You wrote: “by the nature of this process, on the whole, they can not be helping people get more value for their items gathered, and they cannot be getting the item to the consumer cheaper than they could. It goes against the mathematical nature of how exactly a flipper makes profit.”
Yes they can. As we’ve already discussed, a flipper will push buy orders higher, giving more money to those that sell to buy orders. The flipper will push sell orders lower, giving more money to those that buy to sell orders.
You wrote: “anyhow, regardless, there is a problem in fact that money earnable via playing the game, even to a hardcore level, doesnt really compare with the amount of money one can earn through the tp”
I addressed this above. I don’t see it as a problem.
let me put it to you this way. take the flipper out of the equation, either one of two things happen.
either the seller gets more for the item,
or the buyer gets it for less.
the seller makes his money off of playing with these two issues by being a middleman.
OVERALL, he cannot add value to anything, he either has to take advantage of people who sell items too low, (dont know the worth of an item) or he has to push the price a buying is willing to pay up. that is the only way he makes money.
so is the flipper really pushing buy orders up? not really, the flipper can only make money if something is priced less than 15% lower than what it sells for. The flipper snaps up deals that are lower than 15% of what an item sells for. The illusion of pushing a buy order up is a lie, buy orders mean nothing. i can offer 1 copper for a precursor, a buy order is just an offer, it has nothing to do with the real worth of an item. Until they altered it, you could put buy orders for less than npc price, some of these orders remain.
There is a few things that you can say a flipper offers, and that is greater liquidity of items, and a better sense of what the value of an item is. However, in a system that forces people to transact constantly to obtain anything, the flipper is too powerful not to be limited.
The game design inundates people with items they have no need for and gives them few means other than buying at the TP to get items they actually want.
and its really simple math.
the earning through non tp activity is a linear equation (roughly) say for example you can earn 10 gold through hour played.
the earning through tp activity is an exponential equation(roughly) the more money you have, the more money you can earn.
look at the difference in the graphs
http://image.wistatutor.com/content/feed/tvcs/11111.GIF
look at how much further on the X axis the linear line has to go to reach the same height as the exponential line, the worst part is that it gets worse the farther you go.
the prices for desired goods will be determined by who has the most money at any instant. Over time, the difference will be so large as to be insurmountable.
let me put it to you this way. take the flipper out of the equation, either one of two things happen.
either the seller gets more for the item,
or the buyer gets it for less.
the seller makes his money off of playing with these two issues by being a middleman.
OVERALL, he cannot add value to anything, he either has to take advantage of people who sell items too low, (dont know the worth of an item) or he has to push the price a buying is willing to pay up. that is the only way he makes money.so is the flipper really pushing buy orders up? not really, the flipper can only make money if something is priced less than 15% lower than what it sells for. The flipper snaps up deals that are lower than 15% of what an item sells for. The illusion of pushing a buy order up is a lie, buy orders mean nothing. i can offer 1 copper for a precursor, a buy order is just an offer, it has nothing to do with the real worth of an item. Until they altered it, you could put buy orders for less than npc price, some of these orders remain.
There is a few things that you can say a flipper offers, and that is greater liquidity of items, and a better sense of what the value of an item is. However, in a system that forces people to transact constantly to obtain anything, the flipper is too powerful not to be limited.
The game design inundates people with items they have no need for and gives them few means other than buying at the TP to get items they actually want.
and its really simple math.
the earning through non tp activity is a linear equation (roughly) say for example you can earn 10 gold through hour played.
the earning through tp activity is an exponential equation(roughly) the more money you have, the more money you can earn.
look at the difference in the graphshttp://image.wistatutor.com/content/feed/tvcs/11111.GIF
look at how much further on the X axis the linear line has to go to reach the same height as the exponential line, the worst part is that it gets worse the farther you go.
the prices for desired goods will be determined by who has the most money at any instant. Over time, the difference will be so large as to be insurmountable.
You wrote: “OVERALL, he cannot add value to anything, he either has to take advantage of people who sell items too low, (dont know the worth of an item) or he has to push the price a buying is willing to pay up. that is the only way he makes money.”
No. You’re assuming that the buy and sell prices are already at equilibrium (IE the sell price x .85 = buy price.) Often that’s not the case, and this is where flippers serve to push the difference >15% to 15%. They squish the profit margin, not buy pushing a price up, but by working inbetween a margin that currently exists at >15%.
You wrote: “The game design inundates people with items they have no need for and gives them few means other than buying at the TP to get items they actually want.”
I’ve answered this twice now. All exotic armor sets and weapons are purchaseable from dungeon vendors. Ascended items you can’t get from the trading post at all. The only things you could be referring to are mats or precursors. Pres aren’t being controlled, and mats aren’t either.
You wrote: "look at how much further on the X axis the linear line has to go to reach the same height as the exponential line, the worst part is that it gets worse the farther you go.
the prices for desired goods will be determined by who has the most money at any instant. Over time, the difference will be so large as to be insurmountable."
If your model is correct, whoever invested the first silver on the trading post should be able to buy everything in the game by now due to exponential growth. Of course, your model isn’t correct, and flipping cannot be modeled exponentially due to risk, time taken to invest, and competition in the market.
let me see…
A flipper can make lodestone and T6 mats rise.
Can people just not buy them?
Sure! the can also quit the game.
so much excuses to defend a damage to most players.
P.S: some flipper told to have more than 10.000 G, many of them have 3+ legendaries tell me that is a reasonable and balanced thing…
No cof farmer can have so much.
let me see…
A flipper can make lodestone and T6 mats rise.Can people just not buy them?
Sure! the can also quit the game.so much excuses to defend a damage to most players.
P.S: some flipper told to have more than 10.000 G, many of them have 3+ legendaries tell me that is a reasonable and balanced thing…
No cof farmer can have so much.
Besides you not giving evidence to support your assertion, the third option for players is to farm the mats or lodestones themselves.
Many people on the forums have 3+ legendaries just from sheer luck or buying precursors off the TP.
If you read my above posts, I’ve actually argued that flipping can stabilize prices and can be a good thing.
let me see…
A flipper can make lodestone and T6 mats rise.Can people just not buy them?
Sure! the can also quit the game.so much excuses to defend a damage to most players.
P.S: some flipper told to have more than 10.000 G, many of them have 3+ legendaries tell me that is a reasonable and balanced thing…
No cof farmer can have so much.
Besides you not giving evidence to support your assertion, the third option for players is to farm the mats or lodestones themselves.
Many people on the forums have 3+ legendaries just from sheer luck or buying precursors off the TP.
If you read my above posts, I’ve actually argued that flipping can stabilize prices and can be a good thing.
yeah sorry if i m lazy but if you follow TP forum there are evidences there.
Notice that luck is not enough to have 3 legendaries.
Precursor is 25 to 50% a legendary.
Luck is not enough unless you drop 6.
let me see…
A flipper can make lodestone and T6 mats rise.Can people just not buy them?
Sure! the can also quit the game.so much excuses to defend a damage to most players.
P.S: some flipper told to have more than 10.000 G, many of them have 3+ legendaries tell me that is a reasonable and balanced thing…
No cof farmer can have so much.
Besides you not giving evidence to support your assertion, the third option for players is to farm the mats or lodestones themselves.
Many people on the forums have 3+ legendaries just from sheer luck or buying precursors off the TP.
If you read my above posts, I’ve actually argued that flipping can stabilize prices and can be a good thing.
yeah sorry if i m lazy but if you follow TP forum there are evidences there.
Notice that luck is not enough to have 3 legendaries.
Precursor is 25 to 50% a legendary.
Luck is not enough unless you drop 6.
Went to the forums, read multiple flipping threads. The general consensus seems to be this:
“Flipping low level crafted stuff is incredibly easy to do, and a good way to get money at the lower levels. Higher levels… it starts to get a bit tedious to manage the sheer number of investments you are capable of making. I never did figure out how to invest at higher values.
This is how it works.
Generally speaking, most players who are crafting low level items are doing so for the skill gain. The sooner they get their cash back, the sooner they can plough it into more materials for more skillgain. Thus, rather than putting in a high offer and getting more money in the short term, they tend to just “sell it now” and move on to the next tier. Thus, there’s constant downward pressure on the highest bid.
Meanwhile, players who are buying crafted materials are generally doing so because they just leveled and want to upgrade their gear. Thus, rather than putting in a low bid and waiting for cheaper gear, they “buy it now”, because, let’s face it. By the time their bid is met, they’re probably already ready for the next tier of gear. Thus, there’s a constant upward pressure on the lowest offer.
Enter the flipper. You’re basically competing to sell time at the lowest price. You can place the higher bids the upgrader can’t. You can place the lower offers the crafter’s won’t. As a result, you make a profit, the buyers can buy at a bit lower a price than they otherwise would, and the crafters sell at a higher price than they otherwise would. Everybody wins."
and this:
“In this example, you’re highly unfair to the “TP flipper”. He doesn’t “damage” the other players and he does, indeed, provide a benefit to the others. This is also a legitimate playstyle and there’s no reason for ArenaNet to do anything about it.
Your player A makes a choice to sell to the flipper for 1g. The likely reasons are either convenience or impatience, otherwise he could simple make a selling order for 3 gold himself. Quite frankly, if someone sells something worth more than 2g via a buying order, he’s either rich or a fool.
Your player B also makes a choice to buy from the flipper for 3g. Again, the reasons may be convenience or impatience.
Also, the flipper can’t sell for 3g unless other people, who likely simply found the item and are trying to sell it via a selling order (as is reasonable to do). The flipper thus provides a service for players as he satisfies player A’s convenience/impatience.
tl;dr: leave flipper alone"
I don’t flip, not astute enough for it, but it’s not a bad thing. Heading out, there are multiple other threads reflecting my arguments for those that are interested. Night all.
I suppose the stupid thing is that people assume that all flippers are patient while the buyer is not patient. If flippers put something up at an unreasonable price, the player has the option to low-ball it and indignantly stay where they are. Back when I was constrained by money in the game I used to do it all the time: Put down my terms of sale, and then leave it for a day. Come back later to find I have all the things I wanted at a price much lower than what it was being sold for.
Therein’ lies the rub with nearly every complaint about capital gains in this game. Nothing in the game is necessary, and very few things are limited commodities. Because of this, sellers can’t determine prices for items and make people pay for them. For one, if their prices are unreasonable than the rest of the market will just undercut them for a profit anyway. For two, if demand plummets then the flipper has lost money due to their bad investments.
The nerfs to farming isn’t about ideologies or punishing dumb players/rewarding smart ones. It is done from the perspective of game mechanics: farming produces wealth which leads to inflation, unquestionably. Capital gains exchanges wealth, removing some from the market. This does not lead to inflation.
In every MMO I’ve ever played, there has always been complaints about some mythical fat cat that owns everything in the game, making players dance like unwilling marionettes to their arbitrary but complete control of the market. It is just plain paranoid, and most often these issues reside in players having personal issues rather than any sort of logical issue.
(edited by Blood Red Arachnid.2493)
I would just like some alternative to the trading post, like player controlled shops similar to other mmo’s, even trading would be nice..
I do agree the GW2 economy is out of control and i guess i can see how flippers are stealing to a point, i usually look down on flippers if i meet one, i do also feel sorry for them too, anyone that must scam others in a video game is a pretty low type of person morally..
I agree with the OP the economy needs some sort of checks and balances..
@everyone who think flippers are stealing – What the kitten are they stealing?
This whole thread is sounding more and more like “QQ I can’t make money on the trader as well as Uber Business Player B can…”
There is absolutely nothing on the trader that one has to have. Everything necessary to play the game is available by simply playing the game. Limiting the amount of profit one can make is no more effective than it would be in the real world.
In my opinion, the only thing I would do different, is have a limit on the length of time one could have an item posted on the trader. If you don’t put a reasonable price on something, it won’t sell within the alloted time and you get it back. Then, if the prices go up, the consumer will have been to blame.
In truth, I wish I knew how to play the market better. I definitely would be way farther along in getting a legendary.
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