Guild Wars 2

tolunart.2095:

morrolan.9608:

tolunart.2095:

This is exactly what I’m talking about – why do you think you should have these things without putting in the work to get them?

But one of the points of this thread is that TP flippers don’t actually have to put much work in themselves.

Then you don’t know anything about what is involved in TP flipping.

If flipping was so easy → more people will flip → flipping itself becomes less efficient due to more competition.

Perhaps the solution is to encourage more flipping =).

phys.7689:

the problem is not that you have to work or play well to get things, the problem is one style of play rewards money at a different mathematical order than other types of play.

Huh?

I’m not sure why any reasonable person would expect that every individual gets the same results from playing the game in different ways. It’s just not going to happen. If you want X, you do what is required to obtain X.

Ursan.7846:

tolunart.2095:

morrolan.9608:

tolunart.2095:

This is exactly what I’m talking about – why do you think you should have these things without putting in the work to get them?

But one of the points of this thread is that TP flippers don’t actually have to put much work in themselves.

Then you don’t know anything about what is involved in TP flipping.

If flipping was so easy -> more people will flip -> flipping itself becomes less efficient due to more competition.

Perhaps the solution is to encourage more flipping =).

Exactly, all I have to do is buy something for 10 silver, relist it for 25 silver and… watch the item sit there while 500 other items sell for less than 25 silver over the next month.

phys.7689:

why do you think the only hardcore player that should matter is the TP flipper? do TP flippers work harder than 10 hour farmers?
do they work harder than master explorers hitting every jump puzzle in a day?
do they work harder than people speed clearing arah?
do they work harder than the crafter who actually has to do a lot of the TP monitoring, but has to actually create an item some one can use and has the desire to buy?

the problem is not that you have to work or play well to get things, the problem is one style of play rewards money at a different mathematical order than other types of play.

The people exploring, doing jps and doing dungeon runs et al. Well they are actually getting something other than gold out of that activity. They are doing said things because they enjoy them, gold/loot is an additional byproduct.

The people flipping on the other hand, they are doing it specifically for gold gain. There isnt a load of fun pvp, pve or exploring thrown in on top. It is all about making gold.

So why exactly would you expect a similar earning potential? Why would someone running around doing jp’s be expected to earn the same amount as someone trading?

Moreover, given most of the activities you cited involve zero competition and pose little to no risk to the players involved. Again, why should there be a similar earning potential given trading activities involve both competition and risk?

It seems obvious a lot of people in this thread misunderstand what a flipper actually does.

Flippers just bid/ask and lower the spread for items. It is beneficial for sellers and buyers to have flippers because for a seller he/she can sell for a higher price through an instant sale or take a risk at 1c below current sell price. The flipper in theory would lower the spread to 20% so there is much less risk for this seller to list the item at 1c below current sell price as well. The buyer of course will be happy as he/she only has to pay whatever lowest price the flippers competing with each other set. Flippers move on volume for the most part and sitting on stock = gg, time value of money etc

After reading this entire thread I believe people are complaining about SPECULATORS or “PUMP and DUMP” or “Cornering the market” type of investors and NOT flippers. These guys supposedly buy up large chunks of merchandise at X and sell it back for say 5X slowly. It’s been said that the precursor market has been like this but time and time again there has been zero proof of this happening.

tolunart.2095:

phys.7689:

the problem is not that you have to work or play well to get things, the problem is one style of play rewards money at a different mathematical order than other types of play.

Huh?

I’m not sure why any reasonable person would expect that every individual gets the same results from playing the game in different ways. It’s just not going to happen. If you want X, you do what is required to obtain X.

yes, this is what i realized many people here believe, find the best way to do something and do it a lot and well. problem is that type of game design doesnt fit well with a game that wants players to have real choices.

You dont really believe in balance.
Warrior OP for dungeon? play warrior if you do a dungeon
Guardian OP in SPVP play a guardian if you want to spvp
TP flipper OP for wealth earning, play the tp if you want money.

the designers though cant be satisfied with that ideaology for this game though, i just wonder if they even realize that

phys.7689:

tolunart.2095:

phys.7689:

the problem is not that you have to work or play well to get things, the problem is one style of play rewards money at a different mathematical order than other types of play.

Huh?

I’m not sure why any reasonable person would expect that every individual gets the same results from playing the game in different ways. It’s just not going to happen. If you want X, you do what is required to obtain X.

yes, this is what i realized many people here believe, find the best way to do something and do it a lot and well. problem is that type of game design doesnt fit well with a game that wants players to have real choices.

You dont really believe in balance.
Warrior OP for dungeon? play warrior if you do a dungeon
Guardian OP in SPVP play a guardian if you want to spvp
TP flipper OP for wealth earning, play the tp if you want money.

the designers though cant be satisfied with that ideaology for this game though, i just wonder if they even realize that

What you’re asking for simply will never happen. It is not possible. People will ALWAYS seek out the best, easiest, most efficient way of doing things.

Fenrir.3609:

phys.7689:

why do you think the only hardcore player that should matter is the TP flipper? do TP flippers work harder than 10 hour farmers?
do they work harder than master explorers hitting every jump puzzle in a day?
do they work harder than people speed clearing arah?
do they work harder than the crafter who actually has to do a lot of the TP monitoring, but has to actually create an item some one can use and has the desire to buy?

the problem is not that you have to work or play well to get things, the problem is one style of play rewards money at a different mathematical order than other types of play.

The people exploring, doing jps and doing dungeon runs et al. Well they are actually getting something other than gold out of that activity. They are doing said things because they enjoy them, gold/loot is an additional byproduct.

The people flipping on the other hand, they are doing it specifically for gold gain. There isnt a load of fun pvp, pve or exploring thrown in on top. It is all about making gold.

So why exactly would you expect a similar earning potential? Why would someone running around doing jp’s be expected to earn the same amount as someone trading?

Moreover, given most of the activities you cited involve zero competition and pose little to no risk to the players involved. Again, why should there be a similar earning potential given trading activities involve both competition and risk?

the argument that it isnt fun, isnt right, many people in this thread and others have said they immensely enjoy flipping, John smith said its a playstyle.
Also remember this is a game, i think its flawed to build a reward system that most rewards activities even people who do them think of as being the least fun.

As far as competition, and risk, i was thinking about that and i would be all for them adding some of these elements to other parts of the game.
they could have daily challenges where people who place at the top get rewards
they could add a skill based minigame to crafting certain items that can fail
they could allow duels and self gambling
they could make a survival mode area where you have to pay an initial fee, but if you last long enough rake in the profit.
they could add dungeons that require skill points to get into, and if everyone dies you fail. If you succeed you get better rewards, and if you succeed with a high rank, you get additional rewards.
an area where each time you succeed you can choose to continue for greater reward, but if you fail you lose everything.

there is any number of ways to add risk and gain.

Im not saying success should be easy, im saying in a game, they should use reward to enhance the experience of playing the game in multiple ways.

I dont think its a good game mechanic that people do something they hate so they can get what they want.

phys.7689:

yes, this is what i realized many people here believe, find the best way to do something and do it a lot and well. problem is that type of game design doesnt fit well with a game that wants players to have real choices.

You dont really believe in balance.
Warrior OP for dungeon? play warrior if you do a dungeon
Guardian OP in SPVP play a guardian if you want to spvp
TP flipper OP for wealth earning, play the tp if you want money.

the designers though cant be satisfied with that ideaology for this game though, i just wonder if they even realize that

Your analogy is TERRIBLE.

Flipping earns more money simply because less people do it. Similarly, farming T1 mats doesn’t earn much simply because everyone and his grandmother kills mobs all the time.

Minimal competition in flipping – more profit for flipping. Lots of competition in farming – less profit from farming.

There is no need to balance flipping with anything, this is completely unlike class balance. Most people believe that doing stuff is more fun than sitting on tp all day – their reward is measured in fun and some loot. Flippers want to get rich, so they flip – their reward is measured in gold.

tolunart.2095:

phys.7689:

tolunart.2095:

phys.7689:

the problem is not that you have to work or play well to get things, the problem is one style of play rewards money at a different mathematical order than other types of play.

Huh?

I’m not sure why any reasonable person would expect that every individual gets the same results from playing the game in different ways. It’s just not going to happen. If you want X, you do what is required to obtain X.

yes, this is what i realized many people here believe, find the best way to do something and do it a lot and well. problem is that type of game design doesnt fit well with a game that wants players to have real choices.

You dont really believe in balance.
Warrior OP for dungeon? play warrior if you do a dungeon
Guardian OP in SPVP play a guardian if you want to spvp
TP flipper OP for wealth earning, play the tp if you want money.

the designers though cant be satisfied with that ideaology for this game though, i just wonder if they even realize that

What you’re asking for simply will never happen. It is not possible. People will ALWAYS seek out the best, easiest, most efficient way of doing things.

if the difference in efficiency is within a certain range its fine, but the potential earning with interest based systems (IE you can earn a % and then a % of that etc) versus linear systems (like 8 gold an hour) is one that gets worse and worse the longer it goes on. It is simply to great a difference, and over time will become even more skewed.

Your goal in balance isnt to get everything exactly the same, your goal is that things are actually somewhat competitive with each other. Then many people will tend to choose playstyle over just top tiering.

tolunart.2095:

This is exactly what I’m talking about – why do you think you should have these things without putting in the work to get them?

You keep saying this.

I want to be able to work for my rewards by exploring, killing monsters, WvW, farming, etc. What I don’t want is for the TP alone to be the method needed in order to afford nice items. By all means, let me work towards farming the specific items I want. I would welcome that with open arms. But again because of the way drops are handled, it is almost impossible for me to say I want to acquire X sword and go out in the world and do it without resorting to the TP.

Since GW2 is all about cosmetic rewards, I have a question…

Is it ok that someone who excels at many aspects of the game and actively plays it – and I’ll generically define this as someone with many achievement points as it shows they have actually done things – may not be able to have the most expensive/prestigious/rare/etc. rewards but that someone with only a handful of points yet shows great mastery of the TP can?

AntiGw.9367:

phys.7689:

yes, this is what i realized many people here believe, find the best way to do something and do it a lot and well. problem is that type of game design doesnt fit well with a game that wants players to have real choices.

You dont really believe in balance.
Warrior OP for dungeon? play warrior if you do a dungeon
Guardian OP in SPVP play a guardian if you want to spvp
TP flipper OP for wealth earning, play the tp if you want money.

the designers though cant be satisfied with that ideaology for this game though, i just wonder if they even realize that

Your analogy is TERRIBLE.

Flipping earns more money simply because less people do it. Similarly, farming T1 mats doesn’t earn much simply because everyone and his grandmother kills mobs all the time.

Minimal competition in flipping – more profit for flipping. Lots of competition in farming – less profit from farming.

There is no need to balance flipping with anything, this is completely unlike class balance. Most people believe that doing stuff is more fun than sitting on tp all day – their reward is measured in fun and some loot. Flippers want to get rich, so they flip – their reward is measured in gold.

no flipping earns more money because flipping rewards people based on how much money they have. competition can lower the % gains, but over time any % gain system that can take% of its own gains will always eclipse one that has a set amount.

would you rather get 5 dollars a day for a month, or would you rather get 1 penny the first day and double your total each day.
the answer is the penny.

As long as you are making any profit at all, over time you will eventually surpass and destroy a linear earner.
even at 1% a day, you will eventually obliterate some one who can only earn X gold an hour over time.

flipping is a playstyle, this idea that people should suffer to succeed in a game is a bad one. Succeeding at a game is supposed to be fun, they are supposed to reinforce each other.

phys.7689:

the argument that it isnt fun, isnt right, many people in this thread and others have said they immensely enjoy flipping, John smith said its a playstyle.
Also remember this is a game, i think its flawed to build a reward system that most rewards activities even people who do them think of as being the least fun.

As far as competition, and risk, i was thinking about that and i would be all for them adding some of these elements to other parts of the game.
they could have daily challenges where people who place at the top get rewards
they could add a skill based minigame to crafting certain items that can fail
they could allow duels and self gambling
they could make a survival mode area where you have to pay an initial fee, but if you last long enough rake in the profit.
they could add dungeons that require skill points to get into, and if everyone dies you fail. If you succeed you get better rewards, and if you succeed with a high rank, you get additional rewards.
an area where each time you succeed you can choose to continue for greater reward, but if you fail you lose everything.

there is any number of ways to add risk and gain.

Im not saying success should be easy, im saying in a game, they should use reward to enhance the experience of playing the game in multiple ways.

I dont think its a good game mechanic that people do something they hate so they can get what they want.

I wasn’t alluding to the fact that people didn’t enjoy flipping.

Doing a JP is not about how much gold you make, it is about how good the JP is. Trading is about how much gold you make, you might enjoy it, but it is a purely financial driven activity. There is a clear difference and it is understandable why one returns more than the other.

Who exactly is being forced into flipping?

JK Arrow.7102:

tolunart.2095:

This is exactly what I’m talking about – why do you think you should have these things without putting in the work to get them?

You keep saying this.

I want to be able to work for my rewards by exploring, killing monsters, WvW, farming, etc. What I don’t want is for the TP alone to be the method needed in order to afford nice items. By all means, let me work towards farming the specific items I want. I would welcome that with open arms. But again because of the way drops are handled, it is almost impossible for me to say I want to acquire X sword and go out in the world and do it without resorting to the TP.

Since GW2 is all about cosmetic rewards, I have a question…

Is it ok that someone who excels at many aspects of the game and actively plays it – and I’ll generically define this as someone with many achievement points as it shows they have actually done things – may not be able to have the most expensive/prestigious/rare/etc. rewards but that someone with only a handful of points yet shows great mastery of the TP can?

I keep saying it because it’s true.

If you want to go out into the world and play and have fun, go ahead – it’s what I do, too. I don’t have 50,000 gold in the bank, and I don’t care. I don’t have a Legendary weapon and I don’t care. I enjoy playing the game.

If you want a Legendary weapon, then there are clearly defined methods to get it. If you aren’t willing to do those things, you will not get a Legendary weapon. Don’t whine about how other people have legendaries and you don’t.

Phys,

I understand what you are saying. However:

Anet created the game.
Anet hired an economist to run the TP.
The economist runs the TP the way it currently works.
You don’t like the way the TP works.
He is not going to change it, because it works the way it is supposed to work.

I recommend you find a new game.

tolunart.2095:

phys.7689:

tolunart.2095:

phys.7689:

the problem is not that you have to work or play well to get things, the problem is one style of play rewards money at a different mathematical order than other types of play.

Huh?

I’m not sure why any reasonable person would expect that every individual gets the same results from playing the game in different ways. It’s just not going to happen. If you want X, you do what is required to obtain X.

yes, this is what i realized many people here believe, find the best way to do something and do it a lot and well. problem is that type of game design doesnt fit well with a game that wants players to have real choices.

You dont really believe in balance.
Warrior OP for dungeon? play warrior if you do a dungeon
Guardian OP in SPVP play a guardian if you want to spvp
TP flipper OP for wealth earning, play the tp if you want money.

the designers though cant be satisfied with that ideaology for this game though, i just wonder if they even realize that

What you’re asking for simply will never happen. It is not possible. People will ALWAYS seek out the best, easiest, most efficient way of doing things.

This was not about raging on TP traders, what they do or don’t do for the economy. Not even about how much more TP traders make than everyone else.

IMO, this is about Anet nerfing all other forms of making a decent amount of gold outside of TP trading. Even after DR and DS and all the other account bound BS, Anet continues to nerf open world gold grinding.

Just from my own experience, open world gold grinding has been cut down at least 60%, if not more. I would have to run a 10-12 hour grinding session to make what I was making with my 2-3 hour grinds.

How much of an increase in gold accumulation are TP traders seeing from 2-3 months ago?

And when a “efficient” way of making gold is discovered, Anet can not leave it alone.

Amun Ra.6435:

This was not about raging on TP traders, what they do or don’t do for the economy. Not even about how much more TP traders make than everyone else.

IMO, this is about Anet nerfing all other forms of making a decent amount of gold outside of TP trading. Even after DR and DS and all the other account bound BS, Anet continues to nerf open world gold grinding.

Just from my own experience, open world gold grinding has been cut down at least 60%, if not more. I would have to run a 10-12 hour grinding session to make what I was making with my 2-3 hour grinds.

How much of an increase in gold accumulation are TP traders seeing from 2-3 months ago?

And when a “efficient” way of making gold is discovered, Anet can not leave it alone.

They don’t want you to spend all day running CoF p1. So they are spreading the wealth out among all the dungeons.

They don’t want groups of people standing in Orr killing endless mobs of zombies. The events are supposed to begin and end. Move around, go from one event to another, one zone to another.

They are fixing broken aspects of the game. The TP is not broken. If people do not have gold from playing the game, TP traders will not sell anything. TP traders can only make money if the players have money.

Also, maybe you haven’t heard, but they are increasing rewards from various open-world activities. I’m pretty sure they aren’t reducing TP fees so traders make more money.

tolunart.2095:

Amun Ra.6435:

This was not about raging on TP traders, what they do or don’t do for the economy. Not even about how much more TP traders make than everyone else.

IMO, this is about Anet nerfing all other forms of making a decent amount of gold outside of TP trading. Even after DR and DS and all the other account bound BS, Anet continues to nerf open world gold grinding.

Just from my own experience, open world gold grinding has been cut down at least 60%, if not more. I would have to run a 10-12 hour grinding session to make what I was making with my 2-3 hour grinds.

How much of an increase in gold accumulation are TP traders seeing from 2-3 months ago?

And when a “efficient” way of making gold is discovered, Anet can not leave it alone.

They don’t want you to spend all day running CoF p1. So they are spreading the wealth out among all the dungeons.

They don’t want groups of people standing in Orr killing endless mobs of zombies. The events are supposed to begin and end.

They are fixing broken aspects of the game. The TP is not broken. If people do not have gold from playing the game, TP traders will not sell anything. TP traders can only make money if the players have money.

That is my point. How long will this game survive is it becomes TP Wars 2?

They are increasing rewards from open-world activities, an fixing broken aspects of the game. This is not a bad thing.

Zerk warrior players, YMMV.

Amun Ra.6435:

That is my point. How long will this game survive is it becomes TP Wars 2?

Wanna bet 100G? =) That a significant portion of the population simply does not care enough about maximum efficiency gaining of wealth to turn into TP Wars 2?

morrolan.9608:

tolunart.2095:

This is exactly what I’m talking about – why do you think you should have these things without putting in the work to get them?

But one of the points of this thread is that TP flippers don’t actually have to put much work in themselves.

I think that’s a very ignorant point of view. TP flippers are indeed working to get that money, it’s just not the work that most players associate with obtaining stuff in an MMO.

If it wasn’t much work as some are claiming, then it would make complaining people look stupid because with a minimum of work, anyone could make lots of gold flipping.

So let’s be clear … people are complaining, not everyone makes gold flipping … looks like it’s work to me.

tolunart.2095:

Phys,

I understand what you are saying. However:

Anet created the game.
Anet hired an economist to run the TP.
The economist runs the TP the way it currently works.
You don’t like the way the TP works.
He is not going to change it, because it works the way it is supposed to work.

I recommend you find a new game.

and said economist said he is interested in the feedback of players, anet itself said its interested in feedback. I honestly dont play the game as much now(probably a few hours in the last month havent even picked up all my achievement chests yet), so maybe in some way, you have won?

for me the game will probably become interesting again when i can achieve some goals that dont make tp playing the best way to go about it. But i fully recognize anet is doing well and doesnt particularly need me specifically.

I’m not interested in winning anything. I’m not a hardcore flipper either, I saved up maybe 60g from doing the meta-events (Shatterer, Wurm, Fire Elemental, etc.) and selling dyes I bought with laurels. I invested the money in “flippable” commodities and when they sell I’ll have maybe 150 gold for a week’s effort, not even enough money for hardcore flippers to notice.

In the meantime, I enjoy the game for its own sake. Like anything else in the game, the TP can be difficult to figure out at first but if you try it a few times it becomes easier. It’s not worth getting upset over.

I don’t like jumping puzzles. I spent over an hour getting to the top of a tower in Dredgehaunt Cliffs, then fell and had to do it again. But I don’t rage about how unfair it is to make me do JPs and I should just be handed the rewards, achievements or whatever without putting in the effort. And over the months I’ve played this game I’ve gotten better at it, they are annoying now but not impossible.

ilr.9675:

Michael Fejervary.8576:

long manipulative post, because I don't agree or comprehend what I read

hide spoiler

See original post as this put it over 5001 characters in length

wow….
I dunno where you came from but it doesn’t sound like it meshes very well with the Roots of this game. It’s no wonder your own characterization is “being lazy”… Maybe it just wasn’t meant to be? You don’t change that though by tearing down this game’s casual player base.

Umm, if your going to make a comment based off a reference I make then at least show the courtesy of not manipulating the context of what was stated.

Lets look at that section again in its whole context though shall we?

“I have been very lazy when it comes to this game and trying to make money, and for my time spent in it having 120g makes me happy even if its nothing compared to what others may have, and if those others took part in earning money through the TP I can care less. More power to them.

I have not spent time in this games market as I have just been uninterested at the moment due to other things I have been enjoying in the game, real life, etc."

So yeah I see your quoting me and having to post to it as being pointless and non-helpful to the threads topic so lets leave it at this.

I have played my Necro since mid-April and only have 120g (which is the most I have ever had at one time, and I barely spend in-game money) without playing the market (for reasons stated above).

So it would appear to me that I am a very, very, very, casual player compared to most of this player base, and it would also appear to me that my play style meshes just fine with the roots of this game and its casual player base.

Not only does that part of my post show me NOT complaining about how poor I am in game it also shows that I am NOT complaining and asking that everyone else be limited and punished because its not fair that I am so poor.

I am simply content with my 120g.

Other than that the context of the rest of my post is/was lost on you so its better to just leave it at that and avoid each other. K? Thanks, LATER.

Again farming dungeon runs, or farming in general is about making gold from nothing. It is a gold source.

Playing the TP is about skimming existing gold from the economy, an activity that also is a gold sink.

Of the two, which one done to excess affects the entire game’s economy negatively more? Hint: EIEIO

Also flipping not an infinite compounding interest affair. Due to the number of players, only so much of any item is actively moved in a day. Flippers are all about short turn around time. They don’t want to tie up their capital for long periods of time either as bids or as merchandise. This limits how much they can make in a day assuming an individual has that item all to themselves in terms of flipping. If there is more than one then competition will limit profits even more.

To be fair they just introduced these vote reminder bags that do nothing but introduce loads of gold into the system. If the inflation was such a current issue why would they do such?

phys.7689:

AntiGw.9367:

Your analogy is TERRIBLE.

Flipping earns more money simply because less people do it. Similarly, farming T1 mats doesn’t earn much simply because everyone and his grandmother kills mobs all the time.

Minimal competition in flipping – more profit for flipping. Lots of competition in farming – less profit from farming.

There is no need to balance flipping with anything, this is completely unlike class balance. Most people believe that doing stuff is more fun than sitting on tp all day – their reward is measured in fun and some loot. Flippers want to get rich, so they flip – their reward is measured in gold.

no flipping earns more money because flipping rewards people based on how much money they have. competition can lower the % gains, but over time any % gain system that can take% of its own gains will always eclipse one that has a set amount.

would you rather get 5 dollars a day for a month, or would you rather get 1 penny the first day and double your total each day.
the answer is the penny.

As long as you are making any profit at all, over time you will eventually surpass and destroy a linear earner.
even at 1% a day, you will eventually obliterate some one who can only earn X gold an hour over time.

flipping is a playstyle, this idea that people should suffer to succeed in a game is a bad one. Succeeding at a game is supposed to be fun, they are supposed to reinforce each other.

Flipping is work. The idea is not that one should suffer, but that one should earn gold in exchange for some of his time. You can sit on tp for a month, or you could find a job and convert your paycheck into gems-gold instead.

In the end the result is the same. You get tons of gold for doing things unrelated to the game. This is how the game was always supposed to work.

Getting mad at TP players making money is like getting mad at David Beckham for being good looking, highly paid, and married to a Spice Girl.

Anger is not the root cause here. It’s jealousy.

Let me see if I can sum up the base arguments so far, please feel free to correct me on any point.

Argument A ) The high level trading on the TP allows wealth acquisition within the designed limitations of the activity. There is also an acknowledgment that the financial gains from this activity exceed all expectations of wealth acquisition elsewhere in the game. Players should be allowed to acquire wealth far beyond the norm of other activities so long as significant effort is put into doing so and it is allowed by the game designers. There is no double standard of expectation for the activity.

Argument B ) The high level trading on the TP allows wealth acquisition at a rate far beyond expectations set by the developers for an activity in the game. Players should not be allowed to acquire wealth far beyond the norm of other activities if the company designing the game has communicated that they want to limit wealth acquisition of players. There is a double standard of expectations for the activity.

There have been many secondary and tertiary arguments surrounding what I believe are the core ideas brought by both sides. In the end, we may just be arguing about economic ideals (still fascinating that a fictional economy can do this) and whether or not there exists a double standard in how wealth is acquired. Only Anet can answer that last one and from their PR thus far, I am led to believe that they feel there is not.

nightwulf.1986:

Let me see if I can sum up the base arguments so far, please feel free to correct me on any point.

Argument A ) The high level trading on the TP allows wealth acquisition within the designed limitations of the activity. There is also an acknowledgment that the financial gains from this activity exceed all expectations of wealth acquisition elsewhere in the game. Players should be allowed to acquire wealth far beyond the norm of other activities so long as significant effort is put into doing so and it is allowed by the game designers. There is no double standard of expectation for the activity.

Argument B ) The high level trading on the TP allows wealth acquisition at a rate far beyond expectations set by the developers for an activity in the game. Players should not be allowed to acquire wealth far beyond the norm of other activities if the company designing the game has communicated that they want to limit wealth acquisition of players. There is a double standard of expectations for the activity.

There have been many secondary and tertiary arguments surrounding what I believe are the core ideas brought by both sides. In the end, we may just be arguing about economic ideals (still fascinating that a fictional economy can do this) and whether or not there exists a double standard in how wealth is acquired. Only Anet can answer that last one and from their PR thus far, I am led to believe that they feel there is not.

Nailed it.

nightwulf.1986:

Let me see if I can sum up the base arguments so far, please feel free to correct me on any point.

Argument A ) The high level trading on the TP allows wealth acquisition within the designed limitations of the activity. There is also an acknowledgment that the financial gains from this activity exceed all expectations of wealth acquisition elsewhere in the game. Players should be allowed to acquire wealth far beyond the norm of other activities so long as significant effort is put into doing so and it is allowed by the game designers. There is no double standard of expectation for the activity.

Argument B ) The high level trading on the TP allows wealth acquisition at a rate far beyond expectations set by the developers for an activity in the game. Players should not be allowed to acquire wealth far beyond the norm of other activities if the company designing the game has communicated that they want to limit wealth acquisition of players. There is a double standard of expectations for the activity.

There have been many secondary and tertiary arguments surrounding what I believe are the core ideas brought by both sides. In the end, we may just be arguing about economic ideals (still fascinating that a fictional economy can do this) and whether or not there exists a double standard in how wealth is acquired. Only Anet can answer that last one and from their PR thus far, I am led to believe that they feel there is not.

If there was just arguments about economic ideals, I’d consider it a +1 for humanity. A lot of the arguments are personal ones.

I keep seeing post where flippers brag that they are doing a service to gw2 economy by sinking the gold and curbing inflation. They are wrong.

When a player plays the game he gain not only gold, but various other materials and drops. If gold is easier to get than other materials and drops, the value of gold will drop, ie inflation. The opposite will happen if gold is harder to get. This even out the reward vs time of various activities and is good for the game.

TP flipping remove gold from the game. It help keeps the value of gold high, but at the same time, keep the relative value of other drops and materials low. The players who gain more gold than materials/drops benefit, while those who gain more materials/drop lose out.

I am sorry tp flippers, you are actually not doing a service here. If gold is too easy to get, it is only right that _its value should drop in a free market.

Once the value of gold drop, more ppl will do activities that earn drops and materials instead of farming gold and this will actually be better for gw2’s economy.

They really should at least do one big cleanup pass of the TP. How many thousands of 1-copper bids are there on exotic and legendary items? How many tens of millions of T1 mats are there up being sold for 30 silver? There’s “long term investment”, and then there’s just total nonsense. There’s a whole bunch of legacy crap left over from before the vendor-price restrictions on buying and selling were placed.

Not to mention the old, outdated bugginess of the categories. There are numerous item categories that don’t do anything at all and have no items listed. There are categories for items that are now all soulbound or account bound only. Back items have no category of their own and cannot be easily searched for en masse. The “food” subcategory of Consumables does not show most food items. There’s no category for skins (there’s Consumables/Transmutations, but skins aren’t in it). Numerous items are missing a category flag completely. And we’re all aware of how ridiculous it is that you can’t search for armor by Heavy/Medium/Light. And so on…

But the gold flippers are gaining is already in the game world. They aren’t adding to it.

But adding to it is what item drops do, add gold to the world when sold to vendors. We also get direct coin drops. The TP, looking at it in general, moves existing coin between players for items while removing some of the coin from the world. It doesn’t create any new coin, ever.

Now since the vast majority of players are bonking critters on the head and taking their stuff, that’s a lot of potential wealth flowing in every day. How much of it is converted directly into new coin at vendors Vs old coin at the TP, which also destroys some old coin in the process?

The trick is to balance new coin creation with old coin destruction. This is just general game economics I’m talking about. Sources and sinks. And since using the TP doesn’t create any new coin, only sinks some old, traders, flippers and salvagers aren’t growing the money supply, they can’t.

So no, TP flipping isn’t making gold easier to get because it destroys it, but as an affect of using the TP, not the activity of flipping.

John Smith.4610:

This is a great thread.

A few minor thoughts:
The TP is part of the world of Tyria and spending your time interacting with it is just as legitimate a play session as dungeons or jumping puzzles or any of our other fantastic content.

That being said, I see no evidence academically, theoretically or in practice that flipping items on the TP doesn’t push prices closer to equilibrium, eliminate dead weight loss and increase utility/surplus for the market on both the consumer and producer side.

I currently have no plans to limit players interaction with the TP in the world of Tyria in anyway. I believe it would be damaging to the economy, to the game experience and to the players overall.

That being said, if you have a dissenting opinion please discuss it here and voice your beliefs and concerns, we’re always watching and reading and learning and your input has been both intelligent and extremely valuable in the past.

edit: Edited because Juno makes a valid point.

Let think to this.
1)You agree that narket flipping actually rewards too much?
2) how comes open world bosses, dungeons, events and stuff get NERFED when they are too rewarding while market is not?

Don t you see the disparity between playing the market and playing the game?
I don t think any farmer can get near 10.000 Gold.

Finally its the game job to fight inflation and not market flipping.
If you can “win the game” only playing the market, then something is deeply wrong.

I know economists like their stuff but market should not be the main and only part of the game.

If a player produce XXXXX gold just give something to buy that finally become soulbound and so all that gold vanishes.
That is fair.

have players to pay fee to other players controlling the market is not mostly because as said we don t have option that are in real life.

TL:DR balance market rewards with other activities because atm its just EXAGERATELY too rewarding thus subtracts too much wealth to most players in favore of few-

LordByron.8369:

Let think to this.
1)You agree that narket flipping actually rewards too much?
2) how comes open world bosses, dungeons, events and stuff get NERFED when they are too rewarding while market is not?

Don t you see the disparity between playing the market and playing the game?
I don t think any farmer can get near 10.000 Gold.

Ok think about this: a hundred players send me 10g each as a gift (pretty please?). I suddenly gain 1000g.

Would you consider it to be unfair to anyone? Does gifting gold reward too much? Because frankly, I didn’t work to get the 1000g as much as farmers. People simply decided to allow me to get the gold.

Does that mean that we should limit the amount of gold that people can give me?

No, because there’s no actual damage to the economy by the gifts. Gold simply changes hands, and becomes mine. Similarly, gold simply changes hands and ends up in flippers’ pockets.

By the same token why then do they nerf material drops? They don’t really add gold into the economy, if anything they remove gold.

Would it be unfair if farmers were able to get their hands on loads of t6 mats? Yes prices on t6 would go down, but is that really a bad thing? When prices were 2s, was that so bad? If so why?

AntiGw.9367:

Ok think about this: a hundred players send me 10g each as a gift (pretty please?). I suddenly gain 1000g.

Let me see if a person needs oil to run his car.
You buy most of it and abuse your dominance setting up absurd prices.

Maybe in Agreement with other people.

Do you know what happens?

Its not that people gifted you anything you FORCED them to pay and IRL there are laws to punish that.

Since there is no mechanic to keep TP honest you are not being gifted by players.

A player FARM gold to get a legendary thus removing thousand gold from it (soulboud) and it get nerfed.

A flipper earn gold to reinves and get more and more removing just a small part of it….and its fair.

Makes 0 sense.
How can’t you say they are not impacting economy more than anything else?
And finally even if it is an actual solution to infation (its not)….

Its FAIR, balanced and ethical?
Don t think so.

Also where is RISK/REWARD balancing?

what i d like to see?
Some frequent way to keep the market honest like what happened with crystalline dust.

Just to say “don t be so greedy or you lose everything”
But that has to be much more sudden and frequent.

It is really quite obvious that there is an astronomical difference between “farming” and “flipping”.

To demonstrate, let’s take a look at (the soon to be killed) CoF1 farm and compare it to flipping.

If you have 10 players running CoF1 ad nauseum, then each players potential earnings might be 10g per hour (that figure is merely an arbitrary number used as an example). So the amount of gold being added to the economy is 100g per hour.

Now the issue here is that as more and more players cotton onto the fact that CoF1 earns a large amount per hour, they also pile in on the action. Now we have 100 players running CoF1, each earning 10g per hour because they are drawing from an infinitely large resource pool. So now we have 1000g flooding into the economy every hour.

How about a 1000 players running it, or 10,000? Well the gold rushing into the market will keep on piling up. Hence we get epic inflation.

Market flipping on the other hand follows a gold sink/deflationary model. Excess gold is not flooding into the market from flippers, it is being removed from it (transaction costs) as gold passes from one player to another. If you have a flipper earning 100000000000 gold in a day (i lol’d), then that gold has not been added to the economy, it has merely passed from other players.

As more players look at flipping, you do not get more money coming into the economy, because it is a competitive zero sum game which at no point adds gold into the economy. In fact, the more flippers there are, the harder it is for the flippers involved in the market.

PVE/Farming in this game is not a zero sum game and has essentially zero competition. Which is part of the reason it leads to inflation. Moreover there is little to no risk involved and no entry barrier to immediate earnings.

CoF/Farming -

Infinite resource pool.
Adds gold to the economy.
Causes inflation.
Little to no risk.
Zero competition.
Isn’t a zero sum game.
Guaranteed returns.
Unlimited number of participants.

Market Flipping -

Finite resource pool.
Removes gold from the economy.
Deflationary.
Medium to high risk.
High amounts of competition.
Is a zero sum game.
Potential losses.
Limited number of participants.

I am all for increasing gains from farming/pve in general and look forward to the update on the 6th. But suggesting that farming is comparable to flipping and that top end flippers should somehow be nerfed/hard capped is ludicrous and betrays a complete misunderstanding of what is actually going on.

Fenrir.3609:

It is really quite obvious that there is an astronomical difference between “farming” and “flipping”.

To demonstrate, let’s take a look at (the soon to be killed) CoF1 farm and compare it to flipping.

If you have 10 players running CoF1 ad nauseum, then each players potential earnings might be 10g per hour (that figure is merely an arbitrary number used as an example). So the amount of gold being added to the economy is 100g per hour.

Now the issue here is that as more and more players cotton onto the fact that CoF1 earns a large amount per hour, they also pile in on the action. Now we have 100 players running CoF1, each earning 10g per hour because they are drawing from an infinitely large resource pool. So now we have 1000g flooding into the economy every hour.

COMPLETELY FALSE!

Those 1000G ends up in a legendary and possibly a good part of it sinks in NPC shops.
Thus 100% vanishes from the game

Soulbound
Taxes and stuff are to combat inflation.

the market parasites instead reinvest…..
Keeping more gold on the market.
The 15% taxes are a small side effect paired with may other problems they cause.

Its even wrong discussing that a minigame (as you may consider market) is responsible to completely dominate and “win” the game.

LordByron.8369:

Fenrir.3609:

It is really quite obvious that there is an astronomical difference between “farming” and “flipping”.

To demonstrate, let’s take a look at (the soon to be killed) CoF1 farm and compare it to flipping.

If you have 10 players running CoF1 ad nauseum, then each players potential earnings might be 10g per hour (that figure is merely an arbitrary number used as an example). So the amount of gold being added to the economy is 100g per hour.

Now the issue here is that as more and more players cotton onto the fact that CoF1 earns a large amount per hour, they also pile in on the action. Now we have 100 players running CoF1, each earning 10g per hour because they are drawing from an infinitely large resource pool. So now we have 1000g flooding into the economy every hour.

COMPLETELY FALSE!

Those 1000G ends up in a legendary and possibly a good part of it sinks in NPC shops.
Thus 100% vanishes from the game

Soulbound
Taxes and stuff are to combat inflation.

the market parasites instead reinvest…..
Keeping more gold on the market.

A great part of the 1000G ends in the hands of other players because you will most likely buy the necessary mats.
Every time the flipper reinvests 15% of the gold vanish.
What are the other problems?

LordByron.8369:

COMPLETELY FALSE!

Those 1000G ends up in a legendary and possibly a good part of it sinks in NPC shops.
Thus 100% vanishes from the game

Soulbound
Taxes and stuff are to combat inflation.

the market parasites instead reinvest…..
Keeping more gold on the market.

lol wut? It is not false at all.

The gold is added to the game. You know when you get your gold from running CoF. That gold wasn’t in the economy until you had run that dungeon, it is then added into the total economic pool.

When someone gets 1000g from running CoF and spends it on a legendary. The gold doesn’t suddenly disapear as you seem to have suggested, it simply moves to the person who sold the legendary…. The point is that the 1000g used to buy said legendary was added into the market via a pve farm.

Now when someone flips for gold. They do not ADD gold into the economy, they remove it.

You can’t blame the farmers for Anet setting up the game in the manner they have. Gold trumps everything else…..they have set it up that way. If mats were more deliberately obtainable many farmers would farm them vs farming gold. Farming gold directly is a result of the system. It’s just that currently the system limits most all activities, yet leaves relatively few unchecked.

If for example they removed a lot of the gold (they keep adding it for some reason) drops in the game and increase the usable mat drops, then farming would not have as much of an inflation connotation added to it.

Make the market unplayable account bind any item bought on the mp this forces people only to buy what the plan on useing.

people farm cof for legendaries:

Both precursor, materials and stuff get CONSUMED! thus vanish.

If its true maybe if i buy t6 mats the gold doesn t vanish, the material itself VANISHES.

You know what is the only thing that remains polluting the market?

The flippers margin!

dusanyu.4057:

Make the market unplayable account bind any item bought on the mp this forces people only to buy what the plan on useing.

Why?

LordByron.8369:

people farm cof for legendaries:

Both precursor, materials and stuff get CONSUMED! thus vanish.

If its true maybe if i buy t6 mats the gold doesn t vanish, the material itself VANISHES.

You know what is the only thing that remains polluting the market?

The flippers margin!

If the material vanishes but the gold not wouldn´t that lead to an inflation?
And could you explain how flipping pollutes the market?

Turamarth.3248:

LordByron.8369:

people farm cof for legendaries:

Both precursor, materials and stuff get CONSUMED! thus vanish.

If its true maybe if i buy t6 mats the gold doesn t vanish, the material itself VANISHES.

You know what is the only thing that remains polluting the market?

The flippers margin!

If the material vanishes but the gold not wouldn´t that lead to an inflation?
And could you explain how flipping pollutes the market?

thank you to prove again how flippers are just economic parasites.

In case gold inflates just wonder what farmers will do…
Farm materials

While flippers won t do anything :| but leech gold.

Ah yes. The old socialist argument. I can’t wok out how it’s done therefore I want a law passed to make it illegal for everyone else.

LordByron.8369:

thank you to prove again how flippers are just economic parasites.

In case gold inflates just wonder what farmers will do…
Farm materials

While flippers won t do anything :| but leech gold.

If I understand your argument correctly you believe that anyone who has more money than you is a parasite and that someone should force those people with more money than you to have the same amount of money as you.

I could have sworn that I’d heard this argument before…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Terror