Guild Wars 2

phys.7689:

John Smith.4610:

This is a great thread.

A few minor thoughts:
The TP is part of the world of Tyria and spending your time interacting with it is just as legitimate a play session as dungeons or jumping puzzles or any of our other fantastic content.

That being said, I see no evidence academically, theoretically or in practice that flipping items on the TP doesn’t push prices closer to equilibrium, eliminate dead weight loss and increase utility/surplus for the market on both the consumer and producer side.

I currently have no plans to limit players interaction with the world of Tyria in anyway. I believe it would be damaging to the economy, to the game experience and to the players overall.

That being said, if you have a dissenting opinion please discuss it here and voice your beliefs and concerns, we’re always watching and reading and learning and your input has been both intelligent and extremely valuable in the past.

I think you missed the point here, the whole flipper thing isnt about whether they offer anything to the game or are a legitimate playstyle. The issue is, tp flipping can make much higher money than any other playstyle, not only that, but the gains are heavily related to how much capital you generate, which means the more money you get, the more money you can get. (i understand there are limits, but these are so far out of the range of other gold earning abilities as not to be relevant in comparing the two)

The tp lets you make as much money as you can make, nothing else in the game does this.

So the problem becomes one of poor distribution of wealth favoring one playstyle. Im sure many say, then people should just adopt that playstyle, but this is not a game that was sold as great economic simulator, its supposed to be an adventure.

Either find a way to limit the growth of wealth through tp play, or come up with a way to give other playstyles the ability to earn wealth.
I would prefer the latter, but i figure it might be hard because gold obtained in other ways is usually created, while tp wealth is redistributed.

I could brainstorm of possible ways, but it would dilute the post.

essentially, its bad for the game to reward one playstyle more than others, especially a playstyle that is niche to the genre.

TP flipping is actually time limited. The more money you have don’t directly scale to the money you get as orders take time to fulfill, and that time isn’t something you can control. of course diversifying solve some of the problem, but never all of it. It’s like no matter how much dps you have, you can’t really speed up the acolytes part in cof p1.

Also the annoying “Error attempting to sell” is already a time limit.

And then bag size.

Right after you said you are not going to dilute the thread I’m going to dilute the thread. (Anyway the “masters of the universe” already did it by talking about matlab etc…)

First, I don’t think John is the right person to talk to about this, nor is this the correct forum, because John’s job is to watch the economy not general player satisfaction – he cares about balancing gold sources and gold sinks. He may be concerned about wealth distribution, but judging from the tenor of previous posts I’m going to say he’s really not. He may be watching it, but barring a real ability for the peasants to revolt…. Paul Krugman (not known as a conservative) has said that you can have a perfectly functional economy with great wealth disparity.

Second, almost any increase in a gold source will result in a corresponding (and larger) increase in the money to be made on the TP. This is because each gold piece introduced into the market is spent many many times. Each time it passes through the TP (without a buy order being placed) a flipper is taking 10-50%.

To me, the only way to balance out these forces is to make the system less reliant on the TP. If there were merchants who sold items worth having then the need to buy everything on the TP would diminish. For example, there could be a dye vendor, some cooking supplies could be purchased directly from farmers, etc.

Edit: I’m not saying that John doesn’t want us to have fun. Of course he does. It’s just not his primary job description.

I personally do not see a need to limit it however a method of doing so could be borrowed from Neverwinter.
it has 3 currencies gold, Astral Diamonds(AD), and Zen with gold and zen being equivalent to our gold and gems but AD serves as a go between. It is used to buy Zen and zen can be converted to it but you can neither sell or buy AD for gold. It is also the currency used on the trading post not gold. While the game provides ways to make AD it is usually in the form of Rough Astral Diamonds which need to be refined. before usage. and refining is limited to 25000 per day (a daily quest rewards 4000).

In order to borrow from this system and use it to limit the trading post a similar 2 state currancy could be used on the TP and all payouts could be given via the rough state (call it damage during shipping) and then limit the refining of the rough state. and thusly provide for a limit of usable income from the trading post while not limiting actual gains or buying power of those wanting products.

Additionally this method would also allow for adding another item to the gem store, a “Diamond Polisher” that would be a one time use item that would refine all the rough items you have in stock

Now please to not take this to mean that I am suggesting plagiarizing content directly from Perfect World/Cryptic but rather I am simply stating a similar system could achieve the desired effect while not limiting the market itself.

phys.7689:

The issue is, tp flipping can make much higher money than any other playstyle, not only that, but the gains are heavily related to how much capital you generate, which means the more money you get, the more money you can get. (i understand there are limits, but these are so far out of the range of other gold earning abilities as not to be relevant in comparing the two)

The tp lets you make as much money as you can make, nothing else in the game does this.

The amount of money you can make it more related to the demand for an item. Just because you have the money to put up 2k of a item does not mean they will all sell within a reasonable time limit. If only 1k sells within a day the reset of the item will not sell tomorrow. This is because of the surplus the item would cause the other sellers decrease the price of the item.

You can make and lose the most money off of TP. Can not think of a way that would not hurt everyone if you limit profit. The people who play the market put in alot of time on the market. At least TP is a global so it is difficult to control any market for a long period of time before equilibrium is reached.

mtpelion.4562:

I think it is important to note that actions in game can do one of three things to the economy:

1. Create Currency
2. Move Currency
3. Destroy Currency

If you look at the things that have been limited, you will recognize that they are all related to creating currency. They all have a fundamentally different impact on the game than the TP does.

the solution is to give these other activities the ability to move money, or create methods for more wealth creation along with worthwhile sinks.

one of the major issues with the economy imo, is that item creation is too random, most items that are brought to market, should be done so with intention. Its pretty hard for regular players to move value, because
a) most items cannot be obtained by specific means
b) even items obtained by specific means have to compete with items obtained by pure chance, where the obtainer has no interest in the product except to get rid of it for space.

truth is, the main reward for standard play should be gold.
Other things should be hunted, created, whatever the case may be, but it should be intentional.
this way crafters could bring value one way, hunters could bring value another way, Gold grinders could bring currency to the world, people good at jumping puzzles bring puzzle rewards.

If this was the case the TP would be a real exchange of people doing the things they love most, to get the things they want, but dont want to do. Right now, TP is a flippers dream, everyone has to transact constantly even if they dont particularly want to, and the only way to get most things you want is buying it, no matter the price, because you cant get it on your own directly.

phys.7689:

I think you missed the point here, the whole flipper thing isnt about whether they offer anything to the game or are a legitimate playstyle. The issue is, tp flipping can make much higher money than any other playstyle, not only that, but the gains are heavily related to how much capital you generate, which means the more money you get, the more money you can get. (i understand there are limits, but these are so far out of the range of other gold earning abilities as not to be relevant in comparing the two)

The tp lets you make as much money as you can make, nothing else in the game does this.

So the problem becomes one of poor distribution of wealth favoring one playstyle. Im sure many say, then people should just adopt that playstyle, but this is not a game that was sold as great economic simulator, its supposed to be an adventure.

Either find a way to limit the growth of wealth through tp play, or come up with a way to give other playstyles the ability to earn wealth.
I would prefer the latter, but i figure it might be hard because gold obtained in other ways is usually created, while tp wealth is redistributed.

I could brainstorm of possible ways, but it would dilute the post.

essentially, its bad for the game to reward one playstyle more than others, especially a playstyle that is niche to the genre.

Flipping is naturally limited by available competition. It doesn’t let you make a lot of money if there are enough competitor flippers.

As long as people are not willing to sit in front of the NPC and flip, the existing flippers will make more money than people that do other activities. As soon as the number of flippers increases, the profit made by any individual flipper is naturally reduced.

The system is working fine.

Ulion.5476:

phys.7689:

The issue is, tp flipping can make much higher money than any other playstyle, not only that, but the gains are heavily related to how much capital you generate, which means the more money you get, the more money you can get. (i understand there are limits, but these are so far out of the range of other gold earning abilities as not to be relevant in comparing the two)

The tp lets you make as much money as you can make, nothing else in the game does this.

The amount of money you can make it more related to the demand for an item. Just because you have the money to put up 2k of a item does not mean they will all sell within a reasonable time limit. If only 1k sells within a day the reset of the item will not sell tomorrow. This is because of the surplus the item would cause the other sellers decrease the price of the item.

You can make and lose the most money off of TP. Can not think of a way that would not hurt everyone if you limit profit. The people who play the market put in alot of time on the market. At least TP is a global so it is difficult to control any market for a long period of time before equilibrium is reached.

the share volume of trade that occurs means that if you are conservative, you will get your money. There will be someone who will sell low eventually, and there will be some one who will buy it for higher than 15% difference. The game essentially ensures that people MUST sell 90% of the things they get. There is easily, and always going to be a fluctuation of more than 15% value on some item, at some point in time.

i have had 250 mithril for awhile, anytime i salavge in hope of ecto, i often get mithril. I cant store this mithril or use it, i have limited inventory, i must sell this mithril. In a real situation, its rare that i would be trying to get water, and somehow only end up with an excess amount of iron, and no water. People in the game are forced to market, whats worse is mithril gatherers have to compete with my price, who just want to get rid of something i never wanted to begin with.

the whole whether you can lose money or not aside, its sort of irrelevant, The fact that you can lose money isnt as relevant as the fact that a skilled player, using this playstyle is unbeatable by any other playstyle in the market.

the same reasoning applies to class balance. Even if a class requires incredible skill to play, if mastery of that class makes it totally destroy all other classes, they have to try to balance that. You cant build a diverse game where one class/playstyle when done properly totally annihilates other options for the same thing.

Tp flipping is the APEX PREDATOR of wealth gain in the game. Thats a problem that they need to solve.

TooBz.3065:

Right after you said you are not going to dilute the thread I’m going to dilute the thread. (Anyway the “masters of the universe” already did it by talking about matlab etc…)

First, I don’t think John is the right person to talk to about this, nor is this the correct forum, because John’s job is to watch the economy not general player satisfaction – he cares about balancing gold sources and gold sinks. He may be concerned about wealth distribution, but judging from the tenor of previous posts I’m going to say he’s really not. He may be watching it, but barring a real ability for the peasants to revolt…. Paul Krugman (not known as a conservative) has said that you can have a perfectly functional economy with great wealth disparity.

To reach these goals, we’ve made a few tweaks to the way dungeon completion is rewarded. Moving forward, the full reward for individual dungeon paths will be on a one-day timer, making it more lucrative to run multiple paths than repeating a single path. This should also increase the rewards for people who only do one dungeon a day.

So I think wealth disparity will actually be decreased. Farmer can still farm with different paths and casual and majority player who only run dungeon once or twice per day will earn more.

Second, almost any increase in a gold source will result in a corresponding (and larger) increase in the money to be made on the TP. This is because each gold piece introduced into the market is spent many many times. Each time it passes through the TP (without a buy order being placed) a flipper is taking 10-50%.

I disagree. Every item posted on TP will definitely goes through 15% fee. But not every item will move gold to flipper’s hand since not all items are profitable. The gold piece you mentioned is almost always stabilized and nonprofitable. 16 & 17s. No one will flip such market. So only 15% is taken out from the market and nothing goes to flipper’s hand.

AntiGw.9367:

phys.7689:

I think you missed the point here, the whole flipper thing isnt about whether they offer anything to the game or are a legitimate playstyle. The issue is, tp flipping can make much higher money than any other playstyle, not only that, but the gains are heavily related to how much capital you generate, which means the more money you get, the more money you can get. (i understand there are limits, but these are so far out of the range of other gold earning abilities as not to be relevant in comparing the two)

The tp lets you make as much money as you can make, nothing else in the game does this.

So the problem becomes one of poor distribution of wealth favoring one playstyle. Im sure many say, then people should just adopt that playstyle, but this is not a game that was sold as great economic simulator, its supposed to be an adventure.

Either find a way to limit the growth of wealth through tp play, or come up with a way to give other playstyles the ability to earn wealth.
I would prefer the latter, but i figure it might be hard because gold obtained in other ways is usually created, while tp wealth is redistributed.

I could brainstorm of possible ways, but it would dilute the post.

essentially, its bad for the game to reward one playstyle more than others, especially a playstyle that is niche to the genre.

Flipping is naturally limited by available competition. It doesn’t let you make a lot of money if there are enough competitor flippers.

As long as people are not willing to sit in front of the NPC and flip, the existing flippers will make more money than people that do other activities. As soon as the number of flippers increases, the profit made by any individual flipper is naturally reduced.

The system is working fine.

If your solution for balancing an APEX PREDATOR is that everyone should be an apex predator, then you dont have a balance.

Vol.5241:

Mesket.5728:

juno.1840:

John Smith.4610:

I currently have no plans to limit players interaction with the world of Tyria in anyway. I believe it would be damaging to the economy, to the game experience and to the players overall..

We are already limited in the other interactions you mentioned. Some simple examples:

• one jumping puzzle reward per day per character
• one world boss chest reward per day per account
• diminishing returns on dungeon tokens after the first run on each path per day
• diminishing returns on farming mobs (mystery algorithm used here for security)

I’m not disagreeing with you on your response — just highlighting that we are already subject to restriction in the game to limit wealth that enters the economy.

The TP really doesn’t inject wealth, rather it removes it. So lack of restriction makes complete sense.

This ^

This is one of the most limited games to play… after an hour or an hour and a half you already have nothing else to do online cause most of the activities have already been hit by one diminishing return or the other.

Do the other +40 jumping puzzles?
Do the other dungeons and their paths?
Farm mobs in other zones?

I’m already dungeon master since January with points into dungeon hobby, I did almost every jumping puzzle in the game… and I HATE farming. Not a farming guy here… I mean, nothing really triggers the anxiety to play anymore. This game is a broken marriage lol

So, pretty much after a while the game gets old and If I want to chill in a high lvl map, look around for world bosses or events, I have to keep in mind the 1 hour limit before the map turns into wasted killings (sorry, even though I don’t kill necessarily for loot, its impossible not to think its all a waste of time if you stay on the same map for longer than an hour).

phys.7689:

If your solution for balancing an APEX PREDATOR is that everyone should be an apex predator, then you dont have a balance.

There’s no solution needed because there’s no problem.

Most people obviously don’t think that the gold they can get by flipping is worth the time spent. Thus people that do that are rewarded accordingly highly.

Everyone ultimately plays the way he wants.

juno.1840:

John Smith.4610:

I currently have no plans to limit players interaction with the world of Tyria in anyway. I believe it would be damaging to the economy, to the game experience and to the players overall..

We are already limited in the other interactions you mentioned. Some simple examples:

• one jumping puzzle reward per day per character
• one world boss chest reward per day per account
• diminishing returns on dungeon tokens after the first run on each path per day
• diminishing returns on farming mobs (mystery algorithm used here for security)

I’m not disagreeing with you on your response — just highlighting that we are already subject to restriction in the game to limit wealth that enters the economy.

The TP really doesn’t inject wealth, rather it removes it. So lack of restriction makes complete sense.

As another said, this thread is coming from players who feel their methods of gold accumulation, farming/speed runs, are being limited or removed while traders are unaffected. But all of those activities that Juno listed are gold sources and limiting them makes sense. It doesn’t do anyone any good ratcheting up the money supply since that can lead leads to market wide inflation. The alternative is to add more unavoidable gold sinks or jacking up the cost of existing ones like the TP fees, waypoint charges and repair fees.

TP doesn’t generate gold out of nothing like those activities do. In reality it’s the largest gold sink in the game. Gold that traders make comes from the impatience of other players.

juno.1840:

John Smith.4610:

I currently have no plans to limit players interaction with the world of Tyria in anyway. I believe it would be damaging to the economy, to the game experience and to the players overall..

We are already limited in the other interactions you mentioned. Some simple examples:

• one jumping puzzle reward per day per character
• one world boss chest reward per day per account
• diminishing returns on dungeon tokens after the first run on each path per day
• diminishing returns on farming mobs (mystery algorithm used here for security)

I’m not disagreeing with you on your response — just highlighting that we are already subject to restriction in the game to limit wealth that enters the economy.

The TP really doesn’t inject wealth, rather it removes it. So lack of restriction makes complete sense.

And again.. to add to this, we also have lots of limitations preventing us from driving prices DOWN on many commodities in the gamethat HAVE BEEN OVER-INFLATED in the past specifically by flash flippers with large cash reserves … or those who noticed a dryspell in supply and decided to exaggerate it to drive the prices even higher. We have no hedges against this like a real “Free Market” would. It’s like: imagine PvP without Boon-Stripping or interrupts or combobreakers….?? …everyone else in this equation IS limited, while the only limit to Arbitrage is that 15% sink…. No that’s not an even playing field.

We have none of the “financial inventions” more immersing & in-depth markets have to hedge with but we also lack BASIC TOOLS to combat the above problem directly. We have almost no Transparency beyond what Gw2Spidey can provide. And probably worst of all, We can’t simply take a finished product that costs half what= its components cost alone, (like a sword or some food) and break it back down into its commodity components to feed supply back into the Market, no matter HOW MANY LEVELS into that crafting Discipline we have.

Our crafting expertise only lets us put things together in this game, it doesn’t let us take them apart again and that’s a huge Problem when looking at how badly a lot of commodity components seem to just keep going up in price while there’s gluts all over the place of other things that should contain those commodities and be salvaged back out… It’s the main reason IMHO all of Smith’s reality-based math is fairly off.

John Smith.4610:

This is a great thread.

A few minor thoughts:
The TP is part of the world of Tyria and spending your time interacting with it is just as legitimate a play session as dungeons or jumping puzzles or any of our other fantastic content.

The part where people are complaining is flippers makes much more money than people who play thousands of hours.

We call that auction house tychoon in diablo 3. People who farmed for thousand of hours killing monster make less money than people who flip an item in a few second.

And the game changed from killing monster, jumping puzzle into a game of auction house tychoon, not everyone of us want to play.

John Smith.4610:

This is a great thread.
The TP is part of the world of Tyria and spending your time interacting with it is just as legitimate a play session as dungeons or jumping puzzles or any of our other fantastic content.

Isn’t it a bit hypocritical then to essentially allow unlimited profiteering with the TP (even if only a few players attain it) but at the same time slap DR and time-gating on farming and the other play session activities for everyone else?

laokoko.7403:

John Smith.4610:

This is a great thread.

A few minor thoughts:
The TP is part of the world of Tyria and spending your time interacting with it is just as legitimate a play session as dungeons or jumping puzzles or any of our other fantastic content.

I think it’s the part where people playing for thousands of hours making less money than people who sit infront of auction house is the problem.

We call that auction house tychoon in diablo 3. People who farmed for thousand of hours killing monster make less money than people who flip an item in a few second.

And the game changed from killing monster, jumping puzzle into a game of auction house tychoon, not everyone of us want to play.

How does the income rate of a TP flipper make playing the game less fun for you? If your idea of fun is making more money than other people, then I hate to break it to you but you aren’t going to win that race by driving a Vespa. Good news though, ArenaNet has provided you with a free Drag Racer.

roamzero.9486:

John Smith.4610:

This is a great thread.
The TP is part of the world of Tyria and spending your time interacting with it is just as legitimate a play session as dungeons or jumping puzzles or any of our other fantastic content.

Isn’t it a bit hypocritical then to essentially allow unlimited profiteering with the TP (even if only a few players attain it) but at the same time slap DR and time-gating on farming and the other play session activities for everyone else?

No. Those are Wealth Creation activities and thus contribute to inflation. The TP is a Wealth Transfer activity that has a Wealth Deletion mechanic built in (the listing fees) and thus it helps to curb inflation.

TooBz.3065:

I do however, think there have been several good comments about the effect to wealth disparity on the game, which, while not the main topic, should at least be considered.

There is a huge Achievement Point disparity in the game. Some people have over 10,000 points while I have less than 5,000. Therefore, to be fair to everyone, anyone with more than 7,500 points needs to have 2,500 points removed, while anyone with less than 5,000 points needs to have 2,500 points added.

Oh, and everyone gets a Legendary weapon, because if one person gets something, everyone else should get it too.

tolunart.2095:

TooBz.3065:

I do however, think there have been several good comments about the effect to wealth disparity on the game, which, while not the main topic, should at least be considered.

There is a huge Achievement Point disparity in the game. Some people have over 10,000 points while I have less than 5,000. Therefore, to be fair to everyone, anyone with more than 7,500 points needs to have 2,500 points removed, while anyone with less than 5,000 points needs to have 2,500 points added.

Oh, and everyone gets a Legendary weapon, because if one person gets something, everyone else should get it too.

Wealth concentration can lead to market stagnation, but that is not really a concern in a game because those with the wealth cannot control production or own property/resources.

mtpelion.4562:

laokoko.7403:

John Smith.4610:

This is a great thread.

A few minor thoughts:
The TP is part of the world of Tyria and spending your time interacting with it is just as legitimate a play session as dungeons or jumping puzzles or any of our other fantastic content.

I think it’s the part where people playing for thousands of hours making less money than people who sit infront of auction house is the problem.

We call that auction house tychoon in diablo 3. People who farmed for thousand of hours killing monster make less money than people who flip an item in a few second.

And the game changed from killing monster, jumping puzzle into a game of auction house tychoon, not everyone of us want to play.

How does the income rate of a TP flipper make playing the game less fun for you? If your idea of fun is making more money than other people, then I hate to break it to you but you aren’t going to win that race by driving a Vespa. Good news though, ArenaNet has provided you with a free Drag Racer.

Because I actually want to play a game(called killing monster). What’s the point of me running dungeon when I can do nothing and turn 700 gold into 1200 gold. Which apparently just happened to me in this 2 week.

Tell me what’s the point of me spend 1000 hours killing monster in diablo3, when the reward is so crappy I make much more money in 10 hours flipping the auction house.

I actually want to go out and kill monster. But the reward is so bad, I might as well just sit in the auction house all day.

I don’t want to play auction house tycoon. But when it is much more rewarding to play the auction house, it make the other content pointless.

laokoko.7403:

Because I actually want to play a game(called killing monster). What’s the point of me running dungeon when I can do nothing and turn 700 gold into 1200 gold. Which apparently just happened to me in this 2 week.

Tell me what’s the point of me spend 1000 hours killing monster in diablo3, when the reward is so crappy I make much more money in 10 hours flipping the auction house.

I actually want to go out and kill monster. But the reward is so bad, I might as well just sit in the auction house all day.

I don’t want to play auction house tycoon. But when it is much more rewarding to play the auction house, it make the other content pointless.

Uuuuh.

Do you enjoy playing the game? As in, the intrinsic rewards for playing games?

I do. Which is why I WvW and PvP a ton. I’ve spent hundreds of hours in it, because I don’t want to play auction house tycoon. Because I play the game to play it, not for the rewards I get for playing it.

laokoko.7403:

Because I actually want to play a game(called killing monster). What’s the point of me running dungeon when I can do nothing and turn 700 gold into 1200 gold. Which apparently just happened to me in this 2 week.

Tell me what’s the point of me spend 1000 hours killing monster in diablo3, when the reward is so crappy I make much more money in 10 hours flipping the auction house.

I actually want to go out and kill monster. But the reward is so bad, I might as well just sit in the auction house all day.

I don’t want to play auction house tycoon. But when it is much more rewarding to play the auction house, it make the other content pointless.

Nothing is stopping you from killing monsters. If that is what you enjoy, then simply do it. Why do you care if it is the most profitable way to make gold, you enjoy doing it, right?

Just Kill Monsters + Ignore Trading Post = Happy You

Mesket.5728:

So, pretty much after a while the game gets old and If I want to chill in a high lvl map, look around for world bosses or events, I have to keep in mind the 1 hour limit before the map turns into wasted killings (sorry, even though I don’t kill necessarily for loot, its impossible not to think its all a waste of time if you stay on the same map for longer than an hour).

DR doesn’t work like that. If you are moving around the zone, killing different enemies and doing different events, you will not be affected by DR. If you stand on a hill killing the same enemies over and over, you will.

AntiGw.9367:

phys.7689:

If your solution for balancing an APEX PREDATOR is that everyone should be an apex predator, then you dont have a balance.

There’s no solution needed because there’s no problem.

Most people obviously don’t think that the gold they can get by flipping is worth the time spent. Thus people that do that are rewarded accordingly highly.

Everyone ultimately plays the way he wants.

so in your opinion, you can balance having a class that is guaranteed to out perform others by making it undesirable to play.

So you think people would be fine in SPVP if there was one class that 95% of the people didnt want to play, but they were guaranteed to lose everytime they fought them?

you are missing the problem, this means that if the game ever had a tournament in that state, everyone in the tournament would be that 1 class. Only the 5% who are that class can compete for the top level rewards.

This is the exact problem, the TP flipping masters will be the only ones who can compete for the most valuable things that can be bought with money. everyone else can get their left overs

but i think your general idea is that you think that is an ok game mechanic. I dont think thats what they should aim for.

phys.7689:

so in your opinion, you can balance having a class that is guaranteed to out perform others by making it undesirable to play.

So you think people would be fine in SPVP if there was one class that 95% of the people didnt want to play, but they were guaranteed to lose everytime they fought them?

you are missing the problem, this means that if the game ever had a tournament in that state, everyone in the tournament would be that 1 class. Only the 5% who are that class can compete for the top level rewards.

This is the exact problem, the TP flipping masters will be the only ones who can compete for the most valuable things that can be bought with money. everyone else can get their left overs

but i think your general idea is that you think that is an ok game mechanic. I dont think thats what they should aim for.

First, the TP players have the LAST shot at top items because all top items are dropped or created. That means that the player who got that Super Sword of Super Swordiness decided to sell it because he didn’t want it. He had first dibs and decided to convert his dibs into gold.

Second, your analogy is way off. Players with money are not a different class from players without money. They are better at their class than the other players are. A better analogy is that players who spend a lot of time getting good at being a ranger should be able to beat a player who just started playing today and doesn’t even know how to use his auto attack.

tolunart.2095:

TooBz.3065:

I do however, think there have been several good comments about the effect to wealth disparity on the game, which, while not the main topic, should at least be considered.

There is a huge Achievement Point disparity in the game. Some people have over 10,000 points while I have less than 5,000. Therefore, to be fair to everyone, anyone with more than 7,500 points needs to have 2,500 points removed, while anyone with less than 5,000 points needs to have 2,500 points added.

Oh, and everyone gets a Legendary weapon, because if one person gets something, everyone else should get it too.

The two things are so obviously different that I have to conclude that you are being disingenuous driven only be a desire to maintain your wealth. I at least consider the positions that you put forward.

TooBz.3065:

Second, almost any increase in a gold source will result in a corresponding (and larger) increase in the money to be made on the TP. This is because each gold piece introduced into the market is spent many many times. Each time it passes through the TP (without a buy order being placed) a flipper is taking 10-50%.

Love to know how you come up with that number.

I’m going to keep saying this until it takes, a flipper isn’t holding a gun to the head of players who sell cheap and buy high, he is merely taking advantage of the fact that those players don’t want to be bothered putting in the effort to sell/buy for a better price. If more players did, then those “evil flippers” wouldn’t have the supply or customers that they make their money on.

For me, I rarely sell to highest seller. I take a moment to check out the price range of the current items for sale and many times price mine at a higher value than the lowest seller because I can tell that the current low sell price is an anomaly caused by someone who is ever so slightly less impatient that your average player who simply accepts the highest bid. Or that the price is churning within a range and I price my item closer to the top of that range.

But the energy drink swigging twitch gamer with the 2 second attention span doesn’t want to do that and it’s that lack of effort on their part that are making traders and flippers rich. So instead of blaming the traders and flippers for their accumulated wealth why not blame the lazy players who don’t bother trying to get a better price for an item, buying or selling, that allowed traders/flippers to fill the niche created by these players.

mtpelion.4562:

tolunart.2095:

TooBz.3065:

I do however, think there have been several good comments about the effect to wealth disparity on the game, which, while not the main topic, should at least be considered.

There is a huge Achievement Point disparity in the game. Some people have over 10,000 points while I have less than 5,000. Therefore, to be fair to everyone, anyone with more than 7,500 points needs to have 2,500 points removed, while anyone with less than 5,000 points needs to have 2,500 points added.

Oh, and everyone gets a Legendary weapon, because if one person gets something, everyone else should get it too.

Wealth concentration can lead to market stagnation, but that is not really a concern in a game because those with the wealth cannot control production or own property/resources.

The main thing to explore (and this is just something to consider not a given) is whether or not the concentration of wealth pushes up the price of the end-game products. (Precusors, legendaries, lodestones, etc…)

If they decide that it does then they have to decide whether or not this is a problem. The reason this becomes interesting is that in a typical analysis, the cost of luxury goods isn’t usually included (for example it does not figure into inflation). But here, an increase in the price of end game goods could effectively prevent a large portion of the gaming population from reaching / enjoying the end game.

TooBz.3065:

tolunart.2095:

TooBz.3065:

I do however, think there have been several good comments about the effect to wealth disparity on the game, which, while not the main topic, should at least be considered.

There is a huge Achievement Point disparity in the game. Some people have over 10,000 points while I have less than 5,000. Therefore, to be fair to everyone, anyone with more than 7,500 points needs to have 2,500 points removed, while anyone with less than 5,000 points needs to have 2,500 points added.

Oh, and everyone gets a Legendary weapon, because if one person gets something, everyone else should get it too.

The two things are so obviously different that I have to conclude that you are being disingenuous driven only be a desire to maintain your wealth. I at least consider the positions that you put forward.

What wealth? I just bought my 15th character slot – goal is to have 2 of every class and maybe a spare slot for fun… I approach the game casually and spend it as fast as I get it.

I think perhaps you were the one who commented that when I got a Dusk from the SB
event that I was rich beyond belief… until I said I have over a dozen alts and the money would go towards gear and leveling… I got over 500g for it after fees and was broke a month later. I don’t care about money, it’s just a game!

And, no, they are not obviously different. Someone who plays the game a lot accumulates points, someone who plays the TP a lot accumulates gold. The only difference is that the gold gets spent on other things while the points just keep building up.

tolunart.2095:

TooBz.3065:

I do however, think there have been several good comments about the effect to wealth disparity on the game, which, while not the main topic, should at least be considered.

There is a huge Achievement Point disparity in the game. Some people have over 10,000 points while I have less than 5,000. Therefore, to be fair to everyone, anyone with more than 7,500 points needs to have 2,500 points removed, while anyone with less than 5,000 points needs to have 2,500 points added.

Oh, and everyone gets a Legendary weapon, because if one person gets something, everyone else should get it too.

Well since you are reaching for the stars with that one…I will attempt to do the same.

TP traders are at a to great advantage. The wealthiest of them will soon have the power to control all of the TP transactions leaving Anet only one choice. Forcefully take the gold and redistribute it or possibly delete it altogether…or do nothing and risk being held hostage by these globalist Illuminati…errr I mean rich TP traders.

I suppose a more legitimate comparison would be to state something like this.

Achievement points will now be earned at a 75% increase while farming CoF p1 or world mobs in Orr.

All other activities will now only grant you 10 points per day per account total.

mtpelion.4562:

phys.7689:

so in your opinion, you can balance having a class that is guaranteed to out perform others by making it undesirable to play.

So you think people would be fine in SPVP if there was one class that 95% of the people didnt want to play, but they were guaranteed to lose everytime they fought them?

you are missing the problem, this means that if the game ever had a tournament in that state, everyone in the tournament would be that 1 class. Only the 5% who are that class can compete for the top level rewards.

This is the exact problem, the TP flipping masters will be the only ones who can compete for the most valuable things that can be bought with money. everyone else can get their left overs

but i think your general idea is that you think that is an ok game mechanic. I dont think thats what they should aim for.

First, the TP players have the LAST shot at top items because all top items are dropped or created. That means that the player who got that Super Sword of Super Swordiness decided to sell it because he didn’t want it. He had first dibs and decided to convert his dibs into gold.

Second, your analogy is way off. Players with money are not a different class from players without money. They are better at their class than the other players are. A better analogy is that players who spend a lot of time getting good at being a ranger should be able to beat a player who just started playing today and doesn’t even know how to use his auto attack.

no, my analogy is accurate. TP flipping is a totally different playstyle of money earning.
you have grinders, who enjoy endless killing
you have hunters who prefer hunting rare hard to kill things/challenges
you have crafters who prefer creating items for use
you have gamblers who enjoy taking large risks to win big
you have tp flippers who enjoy knowing prices, mathematics, spreadsheets, etc.

there are farmers whose knowledge and skill in their chosen baliwick is just as great as the knowledge and skill of a tp flipper.
all of these styles require specific skill sets, and offer an overall different playstyle. They are essentially different professions.

As far as the last to get things, you would be right, except most of the things in the game you want to get, you cannot get on purpose.
One person may hate super adventure greatsword, but thats what he randomly got the first time he did SAB, that goes to sale.

This is how item generation tends to work in this game. Most items are created by random chance when you werent intending on it, you then have to sell it, then you buy what you actually want.

The current system doesnt allow much for people to specifically obtain a specific thing, and the times it does, its usually outweighed in supply by the random ways of obtaining it.

Behellagh.1468:

TooBz.3065:

Second, almost any increase in a gold source will result in a corresponding (and larger) increase in the money to be made on the TP. This is because each gold piece introduced into the market is spent many many times. Each time it passes through the TP (without a buy order being placed) a flipper is taking 10-50%.

Love to know how you come up with that number.

I’m going to keep saying this until it takes, a flipper isn’t holding a gun to the head of players who sell cheap and buy high, he is merely taking advantage of the fact that those players don’t want to be bothered putting in the effort to sell/but for a better price. If more players did, then those “evil flippers” wouldn’t have the supply or customers that they make their money on.

For me, I rarely sell to highest seller. I take a moment to check out the price range of the current items for sale and many times price mine at a higher value than the lowest seller because I can tell that the current low sell price is an anomaly caused by someone who is ever so slightly less impatient that your average player who simply accepts the highest bid. Or that the price is churning within a range and I price my item closer to the top of that range.

But the energy drink swigging twitch gamer with the 2 second attention span doesn’t want to do that and it’s that lack of effort on their part that are making traders and flippers rich. So instead of blaming the traders and flippers for their accumulated wealth why not blame the lazy players who don’t bother trying to get a better price for an item, buying or selling, that allowed them to fill the niche created by these players.

Did you even read my post? Nothing in that post was complaining about flippers. I was explaining why things shouldn’t be changed by increasing the amount of money that people make from other ways would not reduce the amount of money people can make in the market. It would increase it.

The number came up from my personal experience with the price of goods on the trading post. Mostly I made it up. Upon reflection, the number was wrong on the top end. It’ should have been more like 10-33%. I was originally thinking about flipping profits. which are 10-50%. 50% is extreme, but not unheard of in terms of profit.

Edit: Sorry that was mostly incoherent.

Ursan.7846:

laokoko.7403:

Because I actually want to play a game(called killing monster). What’s the point of me running dungeon when I can do nothing and turn 700 gold into 1200 gold. Which apparently just happened to me in this 2 week.

Tell me what’s the point of me spend 1000 hours killing monster in diablo3, when the reward is so crappy I make much more money in 10 hours flipping the auction house.

I actually want to go out and kill monster. But the reward is so bad, I might as well just sit in the auction house all day.

I don’t want to play auction house tycoon. But when it is much more rewarding to play the auction house, it make the other content pointless.

Uuuuh.

Do you enjoy playing the game? As in, the intrinsic rewards for playing games?

I do. Which is why I WvW and PvP a ton. I’ve spent hundreds of hours in it, because I don’t want to play auction house tycoon. Because I play the game to play it, not for the rewards I get for playing it.

Maybe because part of the game is efficiency. For PvE the joy is to kill monster as fast as possible to get more gold for more efficient(or in this game cosmetic) item.

That being said, dont’ get me wrong. I don’t have a big problem with flipping. I actually find the joy to play the trading post myself.

I’m just pointing out why people are complaining. And I do felt “the auction house tychoon phenomonom” with recent online game, downplay the other game play of those online rpg game.

And lastly, I do care about the reward. Stop being a hypocrite, many people do. If I can find the youtube video on test with monkey about reward… you’ll see it’s normal.

Hell Avenger.7021:

Spread trading were used to employed by traders in the real world, btw. Not some avg joe in the basement, but on trading floor. However, most of that is computerized, HFT!

Spread trading is still the backbone of most large financial institutions AFAIK. Automation and competition have pushed the spread down to fractions of a penny in many cases, but there’s still a ton of money in it thanks to the volumes involved.

You just have to be really invested in the system to collect those spreads these days.

tolunart.2095:

TooBz.3065:

tolunart.2095:

TooBz.3065:

I do however, think there have been several good comments about the effect to wealth disparity on the game, which, while not the main topic, should at least be considered.

There is a huge Achievement Point disparity in the game. Some people have over 10,000 points while I have less than 5,000. Therefore, to be fair to everyone, anyone with more than 7,500 points needs to have 2,500 points removed, while anyone with less than 5,000 points needs to have 2,500 points added.

Oh, and everyone gets a Legendary weapon, because if one person gets something, everyone else should get it too.

The two things are so obviously different that I have to conclude that you are being disingenuous driven only be a desire to maintain your wealth. I at least consider the positions that you put forward.

What wealth? I just bought my 15th character slot – goal is to have 2 of every class and maybe a spare slot for fun… I approach the game casually and spend it as fast as I get it.

I think perhaps you were the one who commented that when I got a Dusk from the SB
event that I was rich beyond belief… until I said I have over a dozen alts and the money would go towards gear and leveling… I got over 500g for it after fees and was broke a month later. I don’t care about money, it’s just a game!

And, no, they are not obviously different. Someone who plays the game a lot accumulates points, someone who plays the TP a lot accumulates gold. The only difference is that the gold gets spent on other things while the points just keep building up.

Yes that was me. (Edit: and you were rich beyond belief)

In between that post and this one I explained why it may matter. That is, effectively pricing someone out of the end game. Basically, you have to flip or you can’t do it.

I’m not even saying this is happening. I’m just saying it’s an interesting thing to consider. If it is true, then the difference is that my getting achievement points doesn’t prevent someone else from enjoying the end game stuff. Whereas a concentration of wealth may.

Behellagh.1468:

TooBz.3065:

Second, almost any increase in a gold source will result in a corresponding (and larger) increase in the money to be made on the TP. This is because each gold piece introduced into the market is spent many many times. Each time it passes through the TP (without a buy order being placed) a flipper is taking 10-50%.

Love to know how you come up with that number.

I’m going to keep saying this until it takes, a flipper isn’t holding a gun to the head of players who sell cheap and buy high, he is merely taking advantage of the fact that those players don’t want to be bothered putting in the effort to sell/buy for a better price. If more players did, then those “evil flippers” wouldn’t have the supply or customers that they make their money on.

For me, I rarely sell to highest seller. I take a moment to check out the price range of the current items for sale and many times price mine at a higher value than the lowest seller because I can tell that the current low sell price is an anomaly caused by someone who is ever so slightly less impatient that your average player who simply accepts the highest bid. Or that the price is churning within a range and I price my item closer to the top of that range.

But the energy drink swigging twitch gamer with the 2 second attention span doesn’t want to do that and it’s that lack of effort on their part that are making traders and flippers rich. So instead of blaming the traders and flippers for their accumulated wealth why not blame the lazy players who don’t bother trying to get a better price for an item, buying or selling, that allowed traders/flippers to fill the niche created by these players.

blame is irrelevant the issue is this.
Why should tp flippers have the advantage?
why is it actually impossible for any other playstyle to compete at the top level.

The best dungeon runner in the world who can solo a whole dungeon without getting hit cant come close to TP earnings.

The most masterful crafter who knows every single recipe, and what anything in the game can be transformed into cannot compete.

The insane farm master who kills more monsters per hour than anyone else in the game.

The master explorer who knows every knook and crannny, who has seen things most dont know exist, who can do jumping puzzles in record time, and knows every treasure chest and how to get it in minimal time

none of these other types of playstyle even have a slight hope of competing with TP flipping mastery in terms of actual reward. Why is that good game design?

tolunart.2095:

TooBz.3065:

tolunart.2095:

TooBz.3065:

I do however, think there have been several good comments about the effect to wealth disparity on the game, which, while not the main topic, should at least be considered.

There is a huge Achievement Point disparity in the game. Some people have over 10,000 points while I have less than 5,000. Therefore, to be fair to everyone, anyone with more than 7,500 points needs to have 2,500 points removed, while anyone with less than 5,000 points needs to have 2,500 points added.

Oh, and everyone gets a Legendary weapon, because if one person gets something, everyone else should get it too.

The two things are so obviously different that I have to conclude that you are being disingenuous driven only be a desire to maintain your wealth. I at least consider the positions that you put forward.

What wealth? I just bought my 15th character slot – goal is to have 2 of every class and maybe a spare slot for fun… I approach the game casually and spend it as fast as I get it.

I think perhaps you were the one who commented that when I got a Dusk from the SB
event that I was rich beyond belief… until I said I have over a dozen alts and the money would go towards gear and leveling… I got over 500g for it after fees and was broke a month later. I don’t care about money, it’s just a game!

And, no, they are not obviously different. Someone who plays the game a lot accumulates points, someone who plays the TP a lot accumulates gold. The only difference is that the gold gets spent on other things while the points just keep building up.

Why is it such a threat that I suggest that wealth disparity may not be good for the game?

TooBz.3065:

Yes that was me.

In between that post and this one I explained why it may matter. That is, effectively pricing someone out of the end game. Basically, you have to flip or you can do it.

I’m not even saying this is happening. I’m just saying it’s an interesting thing to consider.

Except that’s not how it works.

Play the game. You can find a popular skin within its first few days after release and sell it for 100 gold. Or a precursor can drop during an event. I’ve had several exotics worth 5+ gold drop during meta-events, and through pure luck became 500 gold richer. I didn’t exploit the game or scam people out of money. I just play the game and money comes.

From time to time I play the TP, but I’m not JP Morgan or Gordon Gecko. I approach it casually and don’t worry too much over the results. There’s a trick to it and once you learn the trick money will just come to you.

The only problem here is the one that comes up in every facet of these games – people who don’t want to put in the effort to learn the game want the same rewards that come to people who do put in that effort.

TooBz.3065:

Why is it such a threat that I suggest that wealth disparity may not be good for the game?

Why do you think that I am threatened by an irrelevant opinion?

tolunart.2095:

TooBz.3065:

Yes that was me.

In between that post and this one I explained why it may matter. That is, effectively pricing someone out of the end game. Basically, you have to flip or you can do it.

I’m not even saying this is happening. I’m just saying it’s an interesting thing to consider.

Except that’s not how it works.

Play the game. You can find a popular skin within its first few days after release and sell it for 100 gold. Or a precursor can drop during an event. I’ve had several exotics worth 5+ gold drop during meta-events, and through pure luck became 500 gold richer. I didn’t exploit the game or scam people out of money. I just play the game and money comes.

From time to time I play the TP, but I’m not JP Morgan or Gordon Gecko. I approach it casually and don’t worry too much over the results. There’s a trick to it and once you learn the trick money will just come to you.

The only problem here is the one that comes up in every facet of these games – people who don’t want to put in the effort to learn the game want the same rewards that come to people who do put in that effort.

Anet is the only one who would have the data to consider the effects of wealth disparity. They probably have metrics and stuff. I’m not advocating a hand out or a redistribution of wealth, nor am I suggestion that we overturn the system.

Someone early in this thread commented that “luxury” goods may be over priced. So I thought about it… what are luxury goods and why are they important. I think that in a game luxury goods are more important because everyone expects to eventual attain them (note: this is a single player gamer viewpoint, I don’t have vast MMO experience).

So if the price of these luxury goods keeps moving faster than the income growth of the average player what does that mean?? To me it probably means that people start crying for attainable goals. For example, ascended gear. I hate ascended gear.

So this doesn’t have anything to do with people not wanting to do the work. Or the evils of flipping. It has more to do with the idea that there may be more work that has to be done now than had to be done in the past.

I have always stated that this is speculation. I’m not putting this forward as a fact. It’s a thought experiment.

tolunart.2095:

TooBz.3065:

Why is it such a threat that I suggest that wealth disparity may not be good for the game?

Why do you think that I am threatened by an irrelevant opinion?

Why is it irrelevant?

I really don’t understand this logic. By saying disparity, between which groups of people??

Read the note, single path reward is now increased. So the “lower” class casual players are getting richer, and cof farmers can still farm different dungeon paths to earn money.

So tell me, where is the wealth disparity?

Amun Ra.6435:

tolunart.2095:

TooBz.3065:

Why is it such a threat that I suggest that wealth disparity may not be good for the game?

Why do you think that I am threatened by an irrelevant opinion?

Why is it irrelevant?

Because neither you nor I will affect the way the TP is run, and that is appropriate. I am confident that JS is a knowledgeable professional and is keeping an eye on things to make sure the TP runs the way it is supposed to run.

My own point is that things are running the way they should be. Wealth accumulates over time as a natural result of playing the game. Hardcore players accumulate it quickly, casuals accumulate it casually, with occasional bumps from lucky drops like my Dusk.

Human nature is such that people want what they can’t have. Give it to them and they won’t want it. So the game NEEDS things that people want and have to work for – BiS gear is irrelevant because it can be obtained simply by playing the game. So fancy skins take their place as the hard-to-achieve goals. Skins are sold in the TP, given away as rewards for doing content, drop randomly – nothing is unattainable in this game if the player is willing to work for it.

Compare to a game where BiS gear can only be obtained through 20-man raids, or items are sold through the cash shop that are better than anything that can be obtained through playing the game. This game is far more casual than most MMOs, but it won’t stop people from demanding that things be handed to them for no effort.

Afya.5842:

I really don’t understand this logic. By saying disparity, between which groups of people??

Read the note, single path reward is now increased. So the “lower” class casual players are getting richer, and cof farmers can still farm different dungeon paths to earn money.

So tell me, where is the wealth disparity?

By wealth disparity we’re talking about the concentration of wealth in the hands of a relatively few individuals.

phys.7689:

blame is irrelevant the issue is this.
Why should tp flippers have the advantage?
why is it actually impossible for any other playstyle to compete at the top level.

The best dungeon runner in the world who can solo a whole dungeon without getting hit cant come close to TP earnings.

The most masterful crafter who knows every single recipe, and what anything in the game can be transformed into cannot compete.

The insane farm master who kills more monsters per hour than anyone else in the game.

The master explorer who knows every knook and crannny, who has seen things most dont know exist, who can do jumping puzzles in record time, and knows every treasure chest and how to get it in minimal time

none of these other types of playstyle even have a slight hope of competing with TP flipping mastery in terms of actual reward. Why is that good game design?

Because the TP “flipper” class isn’t something one designs into a game. It evolved naturally out of a system designed to let players sell unwanted goods to other players and to buy wanted goods from other players, all the while also acting as a gold sink. That’s like saying a “farmer” class is designed into the game.

Economics is a science and one of the best understood aspects it examines is a free market. And in a free market there are inefficiencies between matching buyers with sellers. This is where the “merchant class” comes in and that’s what flippers are.

You seem to be obsessed with the fact that they have more coin than you do and feel the need to punish them for it. It’s not like they are Scrooge McDuck with his money vault. That money is being used on bids allowing players to get more for their drops than what an NPC Vendor will pay for it. Because that’s what most of them are, player run vendors, aka the merchant class. Punish them and we can all go back to selling dropped rares for 2g.

tolunart.2095:

Amun Ra.6435:

tolunart.2095:

TooBz.3065:

Why is it such a threat that I suggest that wealth disparity may not be good for the game?

Why do you think that I am threatened by an irrelevant opinion?

Why is it irrelevant?

Because neither you nor I will affect the way the TP is run, and that is appropriate. I am confident that JS is a knowledgeable professional and is keeping an eye on things to make sure the TP runs the way it is supposed to run.

My own point is that things are running the way they should be. Wealth accumulates over time as a natural result of playing the game. Hardcore players accumulate it quickly, casuals accumulate it casually, with occasional bumps from lucky drops like my Dusk.

Human nature is such that people want what they can’t have. Give it to them and they won’t want it. So the game NEEDS things that people want and have to work for – BiS gear is irrelevant because it can be obtained simply by playing the game. So fancy skins take their place as the hard-to-achieve goals. Skins are sold in the TP, given away as rewards for doing content, drop randomly – nothing is unattainable in this game if the player is willing to work for it.

Compare to a game where BiS gear can only be obtained through 20-man raids, or items are sold through the cash shop that are better than anything that can be obtained through playing the game. This game is far more casual than most MMOs, but it won’t stop people from demanding that things be handed to them for no effort.

nothing is unattainable in most games, just the methods of obtaining them are limited. similarly some things in this game, the only way to get them efficiently is to buy them on the tp, which means you need enough money to compete with the other people who want the item.

honestly i took myself out the tp game awhile ago, just wasnt the way i want to play, but in doing that, i have to say good bye to the legendary hunt until there are other means for precursors. I also say good bye to most rare drops, like rocket backpack, specific highly desired dyes as well. Of course, with lack of goals to attain, i play a lot less.
hopefully the new skill progression/ascended armor/weapons isnt heavily tied to the TP, and more based on adventure.

Efficiency is for hardcore players, if you play casually you have casual goals. Legendaries are not a casual goal, nor is obtaining limited items like F&F dyes and other drops from past Living Story content. If you’re not willing to play hardcore, don’t set hardcore goals.

This is exactly what I’m talking about – why do you think you should have these things without putting in the work to get them?

tolunart.2095:

This is exactly what I’m talking about – why do you think you should have these things without putting in the work to get them?

But one of the points of this thread is that TP flippers don’t actually have to put much work in themselves.

Behellagh.1468:

phys.7689:

blame is irrelevant the issue is this.
Why should tp flippers have the advantage?
why is it actually impossible for any other playstyle to compete at the top level.

The best dungeon runner in the world who can solo a whole dungeon without getting hit cant come close to TP earnings.

The most masterful crafter who knows every single recipe, and what anything in the game can be transformed into cannot compete.

The insane farm master who kills more monsters per hour than anyone else in the game.

The master explorer who knows every knook and crannny, who has seen things most dont know exist, who can do jumping puzzles in record time, and knows every treasure chest and how to get it in minimal time

none of these other types of playstyle even have a slight hope of competing with TP flipping mastery in terms of actual reward. Why is that good game design?

Because the TP “flipper” class isn’t something one designs into a game. It evolved naturally out of a system designed to let players sell unwanted goods to other players and to buy wanted goods from other players, all the while also acting as a gold sink. That’s like saying a “farmer” class is designed into the game.

Economics is a science and one of the best understood aspects it examines is a free market. And in a free market there are inefficiencies between matching buyers with sellers. This is where the “merchant class” comes in and that’s what flippers are.

You seem to be obsessed with the fact that they have more coin than you do and feel the need to punish them for it. It’s not like they are Scrooge McDuck with his money vault. That money is being used on bids allowing players to get more for their drops than what an NPC Vendor will pay for it. Because that’s what most of them are, player run vendors, aka the merchant class. Punish them and we can all go back to selling dropped rares for 2g.

In this case the TP flipper was very much designed into the game, Im sure it was part of John smiths expectations. The problem here is the merchant class outweighs all other classes at obtaining money, AND all other methods of obtaining money are closely monitored and limited.

normally the middleman is not the only rich one, you have manufacturers, stars, athletes, inventors, high level administrators, gamblers, rare resource suppliers, marketers, land owners, leaders.

In this current game structure, the rewards are designed to cause people to have to go to the TP to get money, and go to the TP to get desired items. The middlemans dream, where everyone has to constantly trade even if they dont want to.

I dont really care that they have more money than me specifically, im more concerned that any item that can be bought, the best way to obtain it is to flip on the tp. all other gameplay types cannot compete. Im also concerned that the disparity is growing with every day. right now, via hardcore farming you can compete with the amount of money tp flippers are willing to spend, but what about a year from now? What about if anet wants to make any highly desired item tradable?

What if anet wants to use gold as a currency that shows how much/well you play the game, thus allowing people to trade value for different playstyles? As long as the best way to get money by far is to flip on the TP, it will only show how well you play the TP

tolunart.2095:

Efficiency is for hardcore players, if you play casually you have casual goals. Legendaries are not a casual goal, nor is obtaining limited items like F&F dyes and other drops from past Living Story content. If you’re not willing to play hardcore, don’t set hardcore goals.

This is exactly what I’m talking about – why do you think you should have these things without putting in the work to get them?

why do you think the only hardcore player that should matter is the TP flipper? do TP flippers work harder than 10 hour farmers?
do they work harder than master explorers hitting every jump puzzle in a day?
do they work harder than people speed clearing arah?
do they work harder than the crafter who actually has to do a lot of the TP monitoring, but has to actually create an item some one can use and has the desire to buy?

the problem is not that you have to work or play well to get things, the problem is one style of play rewards money at a different mathematical order than other types of play.

morrolan.9608:

tolunart.2095:

This is exactly what I’m talking about – why do you think you should have these things without putting in the work to get them?

But one of the points of this thread is that TP flippers don’t actually have to put much work in themselves.

Then you don’t know anything about what is involved in TP flipping.