This whole thread is sounding more and more like “QQ I can’t make money on the trader as well as Uber Business Player B can…”
I don’t see that at all. I see a valid argument by people who refuse to flip on the TP for a multitude of reasons, some of those reasons being dislike of the practice. I’ve not seen a single person hinting at ‘I can’t do it so you shouldn’t be able to either’. So I’m really not sure where you’re getting that from, unless you’re just meaning to insult others. In which case, job well done.
There is absolutely nothing on the trader that one has to have. Everything necessary to play the game is available by simply playing the game. Limiting the amount of profit one can make is no more effective than it would be in the real world.
We are limited in profit we can make from all other sources in the game. Why should the TP be immune from the limitations ANet has been quite free with applying to all other money-making methods?
We are limited in profit we can make from all other sources in the game. Why should the TP be immune from the limitations ANet has been quite free with applying to all other money-making methods?
I’ll say it again: farming produces money from nothing, which causes inflation. Capital Gains (flipping) merely exchanges money and loses some in the trading process, which fights against inflation.
The thread is about angry farmers trying to prove a point :P I’d be glad if anet stopped nerfing legitimate farms, although I’m not sure which farms those were. Recently Arah’s gate was broken, so it was fixed. I think CoF P1 is getting nerfed or such? Orr’s bag drop rate was nerfed(?), and there’s DR (which seems to hit way too soon).
Is there a big nerf on the way? I saw a few threads about the devs hating alts.
We are limited in profit we can make from all other sources in the game. Why should the TP be immune from the limitations ANet has been quite free with applying to all other money-making methods?
I’ll say it again: farming produces money from nothing, which causes inflation. Capital Gains (flipping) merely exchanges money and loses some in the trading process, which fights against inflation.
And I’ll say it again. Flipping is leeching off of the system and is IMHO unethical. ‘Farmers’, aka players who are playing the kittening game, get punished and restricted while those that play the TP and siphon money away from said players get rewarded and are unrestricted.
And I’ll say it again. Flipping is leeching off of the system and is IMHO unethical. ‘Farmers’, aka players who are playing the kittening game, get punished and restricted while those that play the TP and siphon money away from said players get rewarded and are unrestricted.
Facerolling a keyboard on a zerker warrior isn’t really trying hard. I still like farmers :P
Then suggest a solution to effectively curtain inflation of market prices. As it stands, while you deem flippers unethical, they do have the impact of reducing inflation on the market.
We are limited in profit we can make from all other sources in the game. Why should the TP be immune from the limitations ANet has been quite free with applying to all other money-making methods?
Say ‘hello’ to CoF p1, it has been around since game launch …
Having ideologies and principles is fine and comendable in RL, but this is a video game we are discussing here.
Furthermore, if flipping was the evil problem you are making it out to be, stealing and making other players gaming experience miserable, do you not think Anet would have done something about it by now??
Some dumb people own Guild Wars 2.
And I’ll say it again. Flipping is leeching off of the system and is IMHO unethical. ‘Farmers’, aka players who are playing the kittening game, get punished and restricted while those that play the TP and siphon money away from said players get rewarded and are unrestricted.
Facerolling a keyboard on a zerker warrior isn’t really trying hard. I still like farmers :P
You assume I play one. You might want to look at my sig and see that I main a ranger. No easy-mode warrior here.
Players should stop selling to the highest bidder, and stop buying now. The fault is all on them.
Then suggest a solution to effectively curtain inflation of market prices. As it stands, while you deem flippers unethical, they do have the impact of reducing inflation on the market.
Maybe you should first PROVE they reduce inflation because its only a biased speculation.
PS: and if a zerker warrior facerolling a keyboard cannot get as much gold as a flipper AND is nerfed, why shouldn t flippers left alone?
(edited by LordByron.8369)
You assume I play one. You might want to look at my sig and see that I main a ranger. No easy-mode warrior here.
Never meant you, just in general.
We are limited in profit we can make from all other sources in the game. Why should the TP be immune from the limitations ANet has been quite free with applying to all other money-making methods?
Say ‘hello’ to CoF p1, it has been around since game launch …
Having ideologies and principles is fine and comendable in RL, but this is a video game we are discussing here.
Furthermore, if flipping was the evil problem you are making it out to be, stealing and making other players gaming experience miserable, do you not think Anet would have done something about it by now??
No. I don’t. They let John Smith run rampant with the economy. Just as they let the PvP balance team determine game balance for PvE as well, with terrible results.
And please don’t take this as someone needlessly bashing on ANet. I’ve been a fangirl of theirs since GW1 beta. I really do like most of the game. But there are massively glaring flaws that I cannot continue blindly overlooking. No matter how much I like them, the free pass only goes so far before I need to look at the game unbiased.
Then suggest a solution to effectively curtain inflation of market prices. As it stands, while you deem flippers unethical, they do have the impact of reducing inflation on the market.
Maybe you should first PROVE they reduce inflation because its only a biased speculation.
He’ll say that they reduce inflation by losing money with each transaction fee each time they flip an item.
I suck at flipping the tp, but I could never imagine any game ever limiting the amount of money you can make off of it just because of that fact. I say kudos to the folks who can play it well. I’ll just go farm Orr :-P
I’m horrible at flipping, I should probably just farm Orr tbh. I get through one pen, and maybe one plinx, then I’m spent though. TagWars. Rather deal with OutbidWars :P
(edited by Tamaki Revolution.3548)
Then suggest a solution to effectively curtain inflation of market prices. As it stands, while you deem flippers unethical, they do have the impact of reducing inflation on the market.
Maybe you should first PROVE they reduce inflation because its only a biased speculation.
He’ll say that they reduce inflation by losing money with each transaction fee each time they flip an item.
thing already discussed many times…and proved wrong…
Saying the same things Always is boring :<
He’ll say that they reduce inflation by losing money with each transaction fee each time they flip an item.
thing already discussed many times…and proved wrong…
Saying the same things Always is boring :<
And that is why these threads always die when the ‘economists’ show up.
We get it, you’re tired of farms getting nerfed. Stop dragging us all down with you.
No. I don’t. They let John Smith run rampant with the economy. Just as they let the PvP balance team determine game balance for PvE as well, with terrible results.
Aye … Well, I will give you that, my ranger plays worse now than it did at launch ..
As for John Smith, I would never look to an economist to save an economy. Better off asking a thief to hold your wallet.
By Anet ‘doing something’’ I meant a high power than John Smith ..
Reintroducing some of these rare items periodically would help curb the issue. The current trend is to buy entire batches of limited items and then relist them for ridiculous prices. This places all the power in the hands of the already wealthy players since they’re the only ones with the capital to pull it off consistently. As time goes on this gap is only going to increase as there really isn’t any way to compete with power trading.
And no, I don’t blame players for doing this. It’s the only viable way of making actual profit.
Time. There I added value.
Then suggest a solution to effectively curtain inflation of market prices. As it stands, while you deem flippers unethical, they do have the impact of reducing inflation on the market.
Maybe you should first PROVE they reduce inflation because its only a biased speculation.
PS: and if a zerker warrior facerolling a keyboard cannot get as much gold as a flipper AND is nerfed, why shouldn t flippers left alone?
For the PS part: a zerker warrior, or rather that, a regular player doing farm events can be eerily similar to a bot in their logic, only that the bot works from perfection and then can be reprogrammed to add a certain level of randomness to evade base detection algorithms. (Also, detection algorithms for every player in the map add another layer of complexity to the game – teleports can be detected now, but if you’d look at how bots can be driven it’s less on the effort if you just assign them to kill targets in x area in y time then move to another spot).
OTOH, programming a bot to do TP flipping is not doable, as you have to manually sort through tons of data sets and determine which is viable and which is not, in addition to masking the transfer of inventory items from the game to the TP API. [Addenum] If such method would be programmed, then we would probably start to see measures that limit TP profit even further, but would hit not only with the people flipping, but also those that don’t. (See: that change where TP items would be accountbound after being bought – you have to create another account-bound item version of the TP item, which makes you have a problem with arranging the storage stacks, as well as modifying particularly tens of hundreds of items currently available in the TP, not to mention disadvantaging those who want to sell back excess items that they have bought from the TP.)
(edited by Advent Leader.1083)
Then suggest a solution to effectively curtain inflation of market prices. As it stands, while you deem flippers unethical, they do have the impact of reducing inflation on the market.
Maybe you should first PROVE they reduce inflation because its only a biased speculation.
PS: and if a zerker warrior facerolling a keyboard cannot get as much gold as a flipper AND is nerfed, why shouldn t flippers left alone?
For the PS part: a zerker warrior, or rather that, a regular player doing farm events can be eerily similar to a bot in their logic, only that the bot works from perfection and then can be reprogrammed to add a certain level of randomness to evade base detection algorithms. (Also, detection algorithms for every player in the map add another layer of complexity to the game – teleports can be detected now, but if you’d look at how bots can be driven it’s less on the effort if you just assign them to kill targets in x area in y time then move to another spot).
OTOH, programming a bot to do TP flipping is not doable, as you have to manually sort through tons of data sets and determine which is viable and which is not, in addition to masking the transfer of inventory items from the game to the TP API.
Show me a bot playing a dungeon…
While there are suspects of BOT flippers (look at tp section), there isn t ANY of a bot dungeon runner.
Opposite from what you say it is possible to program a BOT flipper, while its not so easy for a dungeon.
Then suggest a solution to effectively curtain inflation of market prices. As it stands, while you deem flippers unethical, they do have the impact of reducing inflation on the market.
Maybe you should first PROVE they reduce inflation because its only a biased speculation.
PS: and if a zerker warrior facerolling a keyboard cannot get as much gold as a flipper AND is nerfed, why shouldn t flippers left alone?
Inflation is the growth in price of goods due to the availability of currency and money in general. This is directly dependent on the amount of currency there is in the economy. Therefore, any act that produces currency contributes to inflation, and any act that reduces currency reduces inflation.
The TP incurs two fees into every trade: 5% of the price listed, then 10% of the received currency once sold. This results in roughly a 15% “tax” on trades in general. This “tax” goes nowhere: the currency is consumed in this operation. Therefore, whenever a player to player trade is finished through the trading post, 15% of the money in exchange is lost completely; taken from the economy and dissolved into the ether.
A flipper buys and sells items regularly in the game, meaning that they produce a rate of exchange that is far higher than players that either just buy necessities or just sell extra items. The exchange from player to flipper to player works in this fashion:
Player pays 5% tax on item
Flipper pays 10% tax to buy item.
Flipper pays 5% tax to re-list item at a higher price.
Note I am assuming here that the flipper does not re-list the item due to a bad guess at what price they chose, so they only pay this 5% tax once
Player pays 10% tax on item at higher price.
This deducts from the economy twice: 15% of the original price of the item, then 15% for the new price the flipper listed. This is not including flipper to flipper exchanges, but those are fairly simple: every link in the exchange chain adds an additional 15% removal.
Therefore, flippers indirectly combat inflation by removing more gold from the economy than if an item simply went from player to player. It is safe to assume that a player who buys an item that does not intend to sell it later is, in fact, going to use the item in such a way that it is consumed or no longer tradeable, as is the fate of nearly every commodity in this game.
Then suggest a solution to effectively curtain inflation of market prices. As it stands, while you deem flippers unethical, they do have the impact of reducing inflation on the market.
Maybe you should first PROVE they reduce inflation because its only a biased speculation.
PS: and if a zerker warrior facerolling a keyboard cannot get as much gold as a flipper AND is nerfed, why shouldn t flippers left alone?
For the PS part: a zerker warrior, or rather that, a regular player doing farm events can be eerily similar to a bot in their logic, only that the bot works from perfection and then can be reprogrammed to add a certain level of randomness to evade base detection algorithms. (Also, detection algorithms for every player in the map add another layer of complexity to the game – teleports can be detected now, but if you’d look at how bots can be driven it’s less on the effort if you just assign them to kill targets in x area in y time then move to another spot).
OTOH, programming a bot to do TP flipping is not doable, as you have to manually sort through tons of data sets and determine which is viable and which is not, in addition to masking the transfer of inventory items from the game to the TP API.
Show me a bot playing a dungeon…
While there are suspects of BOT flippers (look at tp section), there isn t ANY of a bot dungeon runner.Opposite from what you say it is possible to program a BOT flipper, while its not so easy for a dungeon.
Actually, try mucking around the accessible forums of some of the known bot/glitch/hack sites as a guest and you’ll see them showing proof of concept videos of bots being used in dungeon runs. It’s not that seen because these bot runs always have all the members of the party as bots.
Bot flippers, if they are programmed, work with both the game and a modified script loaded in the in-game browser. These bots, if used, do little gain as compared to the traversal of dungeon runs, as bots emphasize on being able to lightning-fast flip to have maximum profits, which is also not that doable since the TP has the feature of slowing down your list rate every x updates you send to the game. In addition, the entire TP is global – the amount of concurrent users accessing at the same time makes player-reported false positives occurring even more than possible.
And there is the predicted response.
Then suggest a solution to effectively curtain inflation of market prices. As it stands, while you deem flippers unethical, they do have the impact of reducing inflation on the market.
Maybe you should first PROVE they reduce inflation because its only a biased speculation.
He’ll say that they reduce inflation by losing money with each transaction fee each time they flip an item.
thing already discussed many times…and proved wrong…
Saying the same things Always is boring :<
Care to point me to where it was proved wrong? Must have missed it.
I ll try again….
I NEVER saw heard or suspected to see any bot in any dungeon in GW2.
I won t just try to go risky sites in the hope to find a concpet of a potentially working dungeon bot that may or may not work.
That is not credible.
While as said many players have seen suspectful atcivities on TP of istand undercut of 1 bronze at any hour :|
Not to mention that flipping base on math and statistic and as such is more easily automated.
Expecially if the economy hasn t any mehcnic to prevent manipulation as gw2.
The only risk comes when devs decide to change the offer of something like they did with crystalline dust.
And i think such thing if frequent should help a LOT to keep the market honest.
I don’t think it’s worth discussing it here any more LordByron. The ‘economists’ are here now to tell us we’re wrong. Logic is no longer the language of the discussion.
I do think that the meaningful part of this discussion has ended long ago. I see a couple of telltale signs of this:
#1: People aren’t talking about the market, and are instead are talking about each other. When you see something like “Flippers use this to argue” or “farmers like to say this, but” then the discussion has ended. They are now talking at generalizations and arguing against the man, and not about the ideas presented within.
#2: People are simply declaring themselves right and not bothering to elaborate further. “I disproved it somewhere else” is substituted for the actual disproof. This is an attempt to dismiss arguments, considering them settled. This doesn’t work, however, since it plainly isn’t settled to the person arguing against it.
I myself do think the in-game economics are more complicated than what I liste, but I fear that I’m the only one who will actually develop meaningful information by talking about it.
I do think that the meaningful part of this discussion has ended long ago. I see a couple of telltale signs of this:
#1: People aren’t talking about the market, and are instead are talking about each other. When you see something like “Flippers use this to argue” or “farmers like to say this, but” then the discussion has ended. They are now talking at generalizations and arguing against the man, and not about the ideas presented within.
#2: People are simply declaring themselves right and not bothering to elaborate further. “I disproved it somewhere else” is substituted for the actual disproof. This is an attempt to dismiss arguments, considering them settled. This doesn’t work, however, since it plainly isn’t settled to the person arguing against it.
I myself do think the in-game economics are more complicated than what I liste, but I fear that I’m the only one who will actually develop meaningful information by talking about it.
I think I actually agree with you here on both points. But both sides, yourself and myself included, are guilty of both as well.
I ll try again….
I NEVER saw heard or suspected to see any bot in any dungeon in GW2.I won t just try to go risky sites in the hope to find a concpet of a potentially working dungeon bot that may or may not work.
That is not credible.
While as said many players have seen suspectful atcivities on TP of istand undercut of 1 bronze at any hour :|Not to mention that flipping base on math and statistic and as such is more easily automated.
Expecially if the economy hasn t any mehcnic to prevent manipulation as gw2.
I’m just saying this: you won’t validate there -is- proof, when there really is, so it seems my other point about bots being able to run dungeons is moot for you. For the other one, you have to take into account a lot of new items, and a lot of data to be retrieved -before- you can make a bot go to town and give you profits. If rough estimates are correct, your incoming updates will hit the update limit first before you’re able to incur profit – ergo it’s not directly profitable to bot than to do it with the human person behind the screen.
I’d like to reiterate that someone undercutting you in the TP as a bot might be most of the time a false positive, since there’s the TP being global, and you have lag estimates with your update (take into account latency and the likes).
I ll try again….
I NEVER saw heard or suspected to see any bot in any dungeon in GW2.I won t just try to go risky sites in the hope to find a concpet of a potentially working dungeon bot that may or may not work.
That is not credible.
While as said many players have seen suspectful atcivities on TP of istand undercut of 1 bronze at any hour :|Not to mention that flipping base on math and statistic and as such is more easily automated.
Expecially if the economy hasn t any mehcnic to prevent manipulation as gw2.I’m just saying this: you won’t validate there -is- proof, when there really is, so it seems my other point about bots being able to run dungeons is moot for you. For the other one, you have to take into account a lot of new items, and a lot of data to be retrieved -before- you can make a bot go to town and give you profits. If rough estimates are correct, your incoming updates will hit the update limit first before you’re able to incur profit – ergo it’s not directly profitable to bot than to do it with the human person behind the screen.
I’d like to reiterate that someone undercutting you in the TP as a bot might be most of the time a false positive, since there’s the TP being global, and you have lag estimates with your update (take into account latency and the likes).
I ll just close the debate saying how in a game called
guild WARS 2 (not sim-merchant)
The only player that can achieve TOP tier equipment is a player that can completely be incapable of using his character.
We are discussing about this.
NO farmer can get 3+ legendaries even the most lucky…..most flippers can making profit on players playing the game.
How would you feel if in this game jumping puzzle gave the mst score in WWW?
Well now you can understand why people complain…not because they are envious but because their game is made worse by people that plays a sort of unethical minigame.
While y’all spent your time arguing about limiting tp profit from flipping, I made 20g in an hour.
Your loss folks
No worries… I’m reading the forums while my buy orders get filled and going back to the game now and then to list sell orders. I’ve been “flipping” on a small scale for a few days and already doubled my money.
In Rift I made tons of coin by doing much the same thing, because the TP there is server-based I would buy crafting mats and certain items (mostly bags) cheap on a server where they were plentiful, then transfer to another server where there was a demand and sell them for 2x, 3x or more.
Not the most fun way to spend a morning, but it’s better than running CoF and being kicked because it took me 10 seconds to kill something when I’m only allowed to take five seconds.
I ll try again….
I NEVER saw heard or suspected to see any bot in any dungeon in GW2.I won t just try to go risky sites in the hope to find a concpet of a potentially working dungeon bot that may or may not work.
That is not credible.
While as said many players have seen suspectful atcivities on TP of istand undercut of 1 bronze at any hour :|Not to mention that flipping base on math and statistic and as such is more easily automated.
Expecially if the economy hasn t any mehcnic to prevent manipulation as gw2.I’m just saying this: you won’t validate there -is- proof, when there really is, so it seems my other point about bots being able to run dungeons is moot for you. For the other one, you have to take into account a lot of new items, and a lot of data to be retrieved -before- you can make a bot go to town and give you profits. If rough estimates are correct, your incoming updates will hit the update limit first before you’re able to incur profit – ergo it’s not directly profitable to bot than to do it with the human person behind the screen.
I’d like to reiterate that someone undercutting you in the TP as a bot might be most of the time a false positive, since there’s the TP being global, and you have lag estimates with your update (take into account latency and the likes).
I ll just close the debate saying how in a game called
guild WARS 2 (not sim-merchant)
The only player that can achieve TOP tier equipment is a player that can completely be incapable of using his character.
We are discussing about this.
NO farmer can get 3+ legendaries even the most lucky…..most flippers can making profit on players playing the game.
How would you feel if in this game jumping puzzle gave the mst score in WWW?
Well now you can understand why people complain…not because they are envious but because their game is made worse by people that plays a sort of unethical minigame.
Gonna put the original OP here:
With all of the farming nerfs the potential to farm gold has it’s limits. No matter how long someone plays or how efficiently they play, at the end of the day they will have been limited to the amount of gold they are able to produce.
When it comes to trading on the post profit potential is limitless. We already know that the tp offers the highest earning potential in the game by far and with every farming nerf that gap becomes larger.
So we have a wealth gap that becomes bound on one end and unbound on the other end, thus it grows.
There are many items in this game that have limited supply. We all know to well these items become costly. The costs of these items is always restricted by the amount players are able to pay for them.
Will this ensure that some items will only be attainable to players that trade for profit?
I think your statement on the first comes as an offshoot, but not exactly the main topic at hand. On top-tier equipment → at the moment, the Legendaries provide the top-tier by a few percentiles not that significant as compared to other players, and on the update would make Legendaries as convenience gear, with the capability to swap stats on the fly but still have the same effective stats as Ascended weapons.
At the point the Legendaries are not the -only- top tier weapons, they’re just top tier weapons that save you extra space by being swapped stats on the fly.
The solution is pretty dang simple, GW2’s economists are just ‘college graduate’ economists rather than business men (and women). IE, their economic knowledge is theoretical, and largely based in the opinion of whoever taught them. But how is it simple?
UR-GEN-CY costs!
Nothing for sale in this game has any risk connected to time! There is no urgency to sell. In real world sales, if you overcharge for something, you are losing more money on it than you will gain when someone buys it. Why? It costs money to sit on that shelf; you have to pay an employee to shelve it, to pull it out of the warehouse, to put it back in the warehouse, to keep the product and the area around it clean and presentable, and most importantly it is taking space that you could be used for something that people would buy right now.
The solution is not to limit gold gain, in fact that is pretty much guaranteed to break the economy, we need:
- An account limit to the amount of TP posts, possibly with additional purchasable space
- A daily charge which scales with item cost
- A removal charge which scales with item cost
- A (small) scaling charge for how long the item has been sitting since spawned
And voila! Suddenly, people actually have to price things intelligently as in real world sales. You won’t see people pricing things for amounts of money no one will even have for months and counting on inflation to catch up.
Yeah, urgency costs, those things totally stop people from gaming the system to make money.
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-july-25-2013/john-oliver-s-arcane-details-of-boron-group-metals-pricing-update
i ll try to express me better.
WWW is currently won by conquering Towers and stuff.
If completing jumping puzzle gave 3 times the points (points=gold) of conquering stonemist castle.
It would just make conquering smc pointless and ruin who plays WWW as intended.
That is similar to what happens with market flippers.
They makes completing dungeons/fractals/world bosses etc Worth less because your earning have to buy legendaries to people playing a “mini game”.
And they are even nerfing dungeon farming…that is possibly the answer to TP flipping for a big % of players.
Ah, all I can say, after reading the last two pages, is that we all obviously have much to fear from the pro-farmer who also flips the TP.
Lol.
I don’t farm and neither do I flip the TP. But I don’t really care if other people do and that’s how they find the game fun. Good on them – they’re having fun, which is what games are all about. (Tell me that you’re bored farming or flipping the TP but show that you don’t do anything else ever, well then I think you’re missing out, but that’s irrelevant to the issue here.)
As someone who doesn’t farm, doesn’t endlessly run dungeons or fractals, has only one char at 80 and several upon several alts, I never have any money. Do I blame the TP flippers or the farmers? No. I chose the way I play the game and that’s all there is to it. Do I find either of these issues annoy me? Only out of impatience and jealousy (small doses – I’m not fuming over any of it, haha) that they have stuff I can’t afford YET. But that’s just impatience, that’s not me hating the way the game works. Hey, they put the effort in, they reap the benefits.
I certainly don’t feel that I’ve been cheated by the people who flip the TP – nor that they have stolen anything from me. I saw the price, I wanted the item and decided I was willing to pay the amount. That’s not stealing.
This whole thread is sounding more and more like “QQ I can’t make money on the trader as well as Uber Business Player B can…”
I don’t see that at all. I see a valid argument by people who refuse to flip on the TP for a multitude of reasons, some of those reasons being dislike of the practice. I’ve not seen a single person hinting at ‘I can’t do it so you shouldn’t be able to either’. So I’m really not sure where you’re getting that from, unless you’re just meaning to insult others. In which case, job well done.
There is absolutely nothing on the trader that one has to have. Everything necessary to play the game is available by simply playing the game. Limiting the amount of profit one can make is no more effective than it would be in the real world.
We are limited in profit we can make from all other sources in the game. Why should the TP be immune from the limitations ANet has been quite free with applying to all other money-making methods?
What I was trying to say is that to ME, it sounded like the respondents are arguing over why it shouldn’t be so profitable to flip on the TP. These people are made out to sound like they’re farmers who are hurt over having their farms nerfed, and don’t want people who play the trader to make more money than they can. That’s why I said what I said. If you go back and read this whole thread objectively, that is what you will see as well.
As for making money in the rest of the game, there are ways to do it. Farming is not the be-all, end-all way to do it.
I will restate what I said before: There is NOTHING in the game that can not be had by means other than the trader. All it takes is effort and time. So, if the prices on the trader are that insufferable, don’t buy.
In the meantime, since we’re all screaming “Let people play the game THEY want,” let the flippers flip. There will always be someone who will choose to take the other side and complain. I could launch a wole argument about why farming is unethical too, becuase it keeps genuine players from accessing content that shouldn’t be meant for lvl 80 zergs in a level 15 area, but it’s already been done to death in other threads.
So sorry if I insulted you by stating MY opinion about it.
Great COF farmers are out in drove….
You do know TP trader forego playing for fun time to flip the market? You trade time to do events, trader trade time to monitor the market.
We are limited in profit we can make from all other sources in the game. Why should the TP be immune from the limitations ANet has been quite free with applying to all other money-making methods?
I’ll say it again: farming produces money from nothing, which causes inflation. Capital Gains (flipping) merely exchanges money and loses some in the trading process, which fights against inflation.
Sure, flippers move an extra 15% out of the economy. Big whoop. I’d be willing to see what happens without them. (Not advocating this, but lets not pretend you play a vital role to the economy either.)
Assume you have four types of people the patient seller, the patient buyer, the impatient buyer, and the impatient seller. Normally the patient seller sells to the impatient buyer and the impatient seller sells to the buyer.
All flippers do is compete with both the patient buyer and the patient seller.
Of course, you would be robber barons can all relax, Anet has shown an incredible laissez-faire attitude toward the TP. Personally, I think they see it as a grand experiment.
You know that the minute someone earned 1000 gold some other way patches would be made and bans would be issued.
Inflation occurs when the currency volume increases and purchasing power decreases in order to balance the two (keeping the midpoint in a relatively balanced place).
In a game, currency volume increases the fastest in the first year (as all the new players are building their characters and doing quests, etc.) and spikes during content releases (when the number of players is peaking). At all times though, there is a constant influx of new currency from players playing the game, but especially from farmers who are focused on maximizing their time to currency conversion.
In order to prevent these sources of new currency from creating unmanageable inflation, games insert “gold sinks” or things for which you pay gold that have no asset value (essentially, where money is deleted from the game thereby removing currency volume). In GW2, the largest by volume is probably the Trading Post fee. Other examples include the Commander title, repair fees, and any soul or account bound items that cost gold.
Blaming the Trading Post for inflation is about as incorrect as possible. No currency is ever created in the Trading Post, rather existing currency is traded and some of it destroyed. Farmers get nerfed because they cause inflation by creating new currency too quickly which causes inflation. Trading Post flippers won’t get nerfed because they provide a valuable service to the economy, not just in deflating the currency but by also helping to quickly normalize prices.
In reality, the only real complaint that can be leveled against Flippers is that they are concentrating wealth. If this was the real world, that could pose a potential stagnation problem, but this is a game in which infinite gold and resources are available to everyone so the only downside is that luxury items (Legendaries and their component parts) are probably overpriced.
So were reduced to becoming TP Flippers to make gold. GW2 the game of spreadsheets…
We are limited in profit we can make from all other sources in the game. Why should the TP be immune from the limitations ANet has been quite free with applying to all other money-making methods?
It’s limited, by the activity on the market. It doesn’t matter how many item you can put up for sell. If no one is buying your stuffs, you earn 0c. Same as buy order, you can put ten thousand order in, but you get nothing if no one is selling to you.
To be very honest, the grandiose claim that “I made 100 gold a day on flipping” is BS. It is a exaggeration. That kind of profit can only be made they invested in the right thing and a mechanic changed in game and made it so much more expensive.
So were reduced to becoming TP Flippers to make gold. GW2 the game of spreadsheets…
You have a lot of options to make gold. If you want to make the most gold you will need to invest. No one ever got rich digging ditches.
The point of the game is to have fun. If you equate “most gold” with having fun then you need to adjust the way you approach the game and get into the TP flipping meta.
Inflation occurs when the currency volume increases and purchasing power decreases in order to balance the two (keeping the midpoint in a relatively balanced place).
In a game, currency volume increases the fastest in the first year (as all the new players are building their characters and doing quests, etc.) and spikes during content releases (when the number of players is peaking). At all times though, there is a constant influx of new currency from players playing the game, but especially from farmers who are focused on maximizing their time to currency conversion.
In order to prevent these sources of new currency from creating unmanageable inflation, games insert “gold sinks” or things for which you pay gold that have no asset value (essentially, where money is deleted from the game thereby removing currency volume). In GW2, the largest by volume is probably the Trading Post fee. Other examples include the Commander title, repair fees, and any soul or account bound items that cost gold.
Blaming the Trading Post for inflation is about as incorrect as possible. No currency is ever created in the Trading Post, rather existing currency is traded and some of it destroyed. Farmers get nerfed because they cause inflation by creating new currency too quickly which causes inflation. Trading Post flippers won’t get nerfed because they provide a valuable service to the economy, not just in deflating the currency but by also helping to quickly normalize prices.
In reality, the only real complaint that can be leveled against Flippers is that they are concentrating wealth. If this was the real world, that could pose a potential stagnation problem, but this is a game in which infinite gold and resources are available to everyone so the only downside is that luxury items (Legendaries and their component parts) are probably overpriced.
I think the concentration of wealth issue could be a real problem. Let’s assume for a minute that the consolidation of wealth increases the price of what you call “luxury” goods. (I’m not sure that it does, so this may be a false premise, but lets go with it for a minute)
For most people, luxury goods everyone else calls the end game. So by inflating the price of the end game items you are pushing end game rewards further out of reach of the “normal” players.
Guild wars 2 was original set up that these end game items were suppose to be the thing that people work towards once they completed the main content. They were the item to grind for, the reason to log on. However, as the price of these end game rises against what normal players can afford or realistically save for, they give up.
Instead they cry out for some item that is easier to get but still allows them to feel like they are progressing. Thus is introduced time-gated stat progression.
One of the few mistakes that I think John is making with the economy is assuming that the price of the luxury good doesn’t matter.
@everyone who think flippers are stealing – What the kitten are they stealing?
They are stealing the fun out of the game by making the economy a shambles, each flip they do makes items more expensive to buy, which in turn makes people need more money to buy said items, which in turn makes people need to farm the game more..
Sadly most people will not stop buying things at high prices as they are naive and or stupid.
As i said ruins the game.
I think the concentration of wealth issue could be a real problem. Let’s assume for a minute that the consolidation of wealth increases the price of what you call “luxury” goods. (I’m not sure that it does, so this may be a false premise, but lets go with it for a minute)
For most people, luxury goods everyone else calls the end game. So by inflating the price of the end game items you are pushing end game rewards further out of reach of the “normal” players.
Guild wars 2 was original set up that these end game items were suppose to be the thing that people work towards once they completed the main content. They were the item to grind for, the reason to log on. However, as the price of these end game rises against what normal players can afford or realistically save for, they give up.
Instead they cry out for some item that is easier to get but still allows them to feel like they are progressing. Thus is introduced time-gated stat progression.
One of the few mistakes that I think John is making with the economy is assuming that the price of the luxury good doesn’t matter.
I think they know that the luxury good market is being impacted by wealth concentration. They are looking to add new Legendaries in the near future which may be their answer to the issue because as you pointed out, luxury goods are the end game content in GW2 and if end game content is unobtainable the number of players will decline.
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