Guild Wars 2

Now, let’s swing this back to GW2. If I’m a player who has no interest in a legendary, and enjoys parts of the game that are providing me with a reasonable income stream compared to my wants, I think this economy is fantastic. Let’s use my D/D ele as an example (pretending that I’m not working for Incinerator). The dyes I want for my character are blue rarity dyes. The stats I want for my character’s armor (other than the runes) are available via one of karma, badges (of which I have a large stockpile), or dungeon tokens. I am part of a fractals group that’s up in the 30s, so my rings and backpiece could be purchased without any real additional effort. I do my dailies every day, and I do my guild events every week, so the amulet and accessories I want are fairly easily attained there. What expenses do I really have? I paid around 7g total for my weapons. I need 50 ectos (so around 10g) for one of the earrings and 5g for the other. The runes/sigils I wanted were middle of the road price, so the outfitting there ran me maybe 20g. I’ve attained all my function goals for around 40g-45g. Just regular play to attain those tokens/badges/karma is more than enough for that amount of money (assuming I’m smart with selling it and not wasteful, which is the case) and that’s the content I was doing anyway. To get the style I wanted, now I decide I want the Mystic Spike (around 3.5g crafted) and the Inquest Dagger (tokens). Toss in the T3 cultural top (30g), HoM gloves (free), Acolyte legs (a few copper), and the boots/shoulders/helm that I bought for the stats (karma/badges/tokens) and the entire, effectively endgame of outfitting my character cost me 75g-80g. With regular play (when I was actually building this char, I’m a bit busier now and not playing near as much) that’s 2-4 weeks of regular play. That’s all it took for that person to fully satisfy all their wants and needs in this GW2 economy.

How do you think they view this economy? Do they think the things they want to buy are too expensive, or the things they’re selling are too cheap? They think this is absolutely fantastic, best MMO economy ever. If those were your personal preferences, you’d be saying “I know an optimal economy when I see one, and this is absolutely it!” You, like almost every person, look at the economy from a selfish perspective. When something costs more than you’re willing to pay, you generally think “that’s too expensive” when the more accurate description is likely “my personal demand for that is lower than the current equilibrium price.” But when things are priced far below what you’re willing to pay, you say “oh wow, that’s really cheap!” The more accurate thing to say about that might be "my personal position along the demand curve means I receive significant consumer surplus from the purchase of this item. As an economist, when I go to the store, I do the same thing. “Who would pay that much for that?” “Wow look how cheap these are!” That’s how people are wired to think. But when I’m evaluating an economy, I step back and look at quantitative metrics. What sort of income distribution does this lead to? How efficient is production? How stable are prices? What sort of barriers are there to trade? How much overall production is there? How does that compare to the size of the money supply? What sort of growth is happening? There’s a thousand quantifiable different things I might look at, but “is this product overpriced” is never really directly asked (in a virtual economy) because it’s not really relevant.

As I said at the start of this, virtual and real world economies face this same issue constantly. The metrics they’re judged by, and ultimately (in many cases with other, less expertly monitored games, as well as the real world) people who don’t really understand economics make decisions based on personal preferences and declare those preferences as proof positive of a good or bad economy. People think they know a good economy when they see one, but they really don’t.

Syeria.4812:

Snip

What stance was that showing? Exception? Norm? Assumption?

Just curios…I couldn’t make heads or tails to the justification.

Edit…just saw there was a preface on the previous page……..so from what I am gathering ……. basically none of us are qualified to pass any judgement unless we are certified economists?

Essence Snow.3194:

Syeria.4812:

Snip

What stance was that showing? Exception? Norm? Assumption?

Just curios…I couldn’t make heads or tails to the justification.

Edit…just saw there was a preface on the previous page……..so from what I am gathering ……. basically none of us are qualified to pass any judgement unless we are certified economists?

My interpretation was that looking at the economy as a whole through the lens of what you would personally like things to cost leads to a definition of an “optimal” economy that is only optimal for you and folks that value things similarly.
(and I mean “you” in the general sense, not “you the person I quoted” )

Could you please describe what you believe an “optimal economy” looks like.

One in which some items cost more than others, but in which no item costs more money than the average player makes in a month of typical gameplay. It should also be impossible to take money, apply it to the TP in some fashion, and end up with more money than you started with.

In an attempt to get back on topic. You see this in all modern economies and it’s the same concept. Only the people that have the money to play in the top tier markets are playing around in them. It in some way benefits the average player if they happen to stumble on one of these top tier items. . . In correlation to that, several people i know in game got precursors and turned to sell them for a tidy sum.

Yes, but it shouldn’t be that way. Nothing should be so rare that if you luck into it you make a fortune, and conversely, nothing should be so rare that you need a fortune to buy it.

I think John has mentioned (and i’m pretty sure he has far better numbers than what’s available to us) that the market isn’t being manipulated as much as some people tend to believe.

It depends on what you consider to be a problem. Is it “buying all or the available copper ores at a minimal price, letting the price rise a bit, and then slowly trickling it in?” That may be fairly rare. Is the problem “people buying up a bunch of items when the price just happens to be fairly low, and then selling them for a profit when the price happens to be higher?” That seems to be far more common.

Here’s the issue. You’re not an economist, and you don’t know an “optimal economy” when you see one.

No, I do. The optimal economy has nothing to do with theory, and everything to do with outcomes. If the outcome is 300g+ precursors then there is a problem.

What people see, and think to themselves as a “good” or “bad” economy is one in which their personal wants and needs are satisfied at a high level. But this is a judgment not on how well the economy is performing overall, it’s a judgment of how well the economy is satisfying one individual person’s unique preferences.

This is a relatively transparent economy though. We can see how expensive everything is in it. We can see if those prices are out of line with where they should be. This economy works great for people who’s goal it is to be a virtual day trader, but it’s a complete mess for people that actually want to play the normal game and feel that the economy works in their favor.

How do you think they view this economy? Do they think the things they want to buy are too expensive, or the things they’re selling are too cheap?

Well look, the economy I would want to see should work identically to that happy-go-lucky fellow. The items in the price range he’s shopping should neither rise nor fall significantly. It’s only the top that should come way down, and the bottom that might see a slight bump. So if they made the economy that suited my “personal perspective,” it would suit this imaginary chump just as well, so why not do that?

When something costs more than you’re willing to pay, you generally think “that’s too expensive” when the more accurate description is likely “my personal demand for that is lower than the current equilibrium price.”

When actually. it’s both that are true.

That’s really the difference between a real economy and a virtual one. When an item is “overpriced” in the real world, it tends to come from that item costing more to design, produce, and/or ship than one might expect. A Yacht isn’t more expensive than a dingy because someone just figured he wanted to make more money off of it, but rather because the yacht involves a much larger quantity of materials, higher quality materials, it requires far more labor to produce, etc. There’s a higher mark-up, certainly, but there are also valid higher production costs. Compare that to an ingame item. The sword Dawn is literally identical to Khrysaor, with the only difference in function being that Dawn can be used to make a legendary, and yet Dawn sells for 25000% the cost of Khrysaor. Why? Because there is a given demand for Dawn that Khrysaor doesn’t have, and yet ANet has not increased the supply to meet that demand.

They could, if they wanted to, make it so that you get a Dawn automatically with every mob you kill. The market could be flooded with millions of Dawns over night. I’m obviously not suggesting that they should flip the lever that far in that direction, but they could, and it would cost them nothing to do so. There are no Dwarven miners toiling away to produce a limited supply of Dawns, there are as many, and as few of them as ANet chooses to introduce to the economy. They should not produce enough that they lose value completely, but they should produce more than they have been.

So how much does the typical player make in a month? I’m guessing you believe you are typical, or probably above average. That’s human nature. That’s also a terrible yardstick to use, because it is entirely possible that the typical player makes far more than you think they do in a month.

The difference between real world economy and virtual economy is not whether they are finite or not. In the real world, you have to deal with the entire economy. In the game world, designers made it such that you only get to see the ‘entertaining’ parts of an economy. Removing limiting factors of economies is just a result of that design decision. Non-finite economies of computer games are a necessity to close the compulsion loop of users when it comes to their participation consuming ingame luxury goods.

Sustenance economy
You need to deplete economic goods to survive. GW2 developers get up in the morning and commute to work in order to pay whatever bills. GW2 is not that sort of economy. In the real world, you have to participate in the economy to support your life-style, be it 3rd world dirt farmer or rockstar developer. In GW2, you do not have to participate in any economy to continue playing the game. Your character is not nearly as needy as a Tamagotchi key chain.

Luxury Economy
In the real world, you may reach a point at which you have spent all you need on sustaining yourself and are now in a position to spend more. Excess wealth needs to be spent, a.k.a. the disposable income. Your presence in this forum proves you have it and know what it is.

GW2 is basically an economy of excess wealth being exchanged over and over. Sustenance economies have one set of rules concerning limits of growth, excess wealth economies a totally different one. Learn to live by the rules of excess wealth economies and you shall flourish like that car dealer selling overpriced luxury vehicles to millionaires. Supply and demand is a sucker’s game.

Participation in an economy based on spending excess wealth is an aspirational goal which just works. It works so well, you just need to see it on TV to close the compulsion loop. Excess wealth spending is to the economy what fizzy sugary drinks ares to water. You do not need them, but you know them from a very young age and consider them normal/entertaining. You will also never quit. You want to be a trader? To break even, you do not need to know the demand, you need to know the sugar.

Commodity and Currency – Learn the Difference
I cannot stress that enough. In the real world, we have currencies and try to keep them limited in an effort to make it possible for currencies to accurately represent the value of any given commodity. If that is achieved, commodities can be exchanged by comparing their value in any given currency. This facilitates trade, this is the reason we exist the way we do.

In real life, I will always produce a commodity, this commodity is attributed a value in a currency. I trade the commodity for the currency. I then buy what I really require. The result of specialization at the work place. This is how a gunsmith puts food on the table, even though you cannot eat bullets. It is why everybody has a fetish for adjusting to inflation. A currency’s ability to correctly represent the value of a product is as holy and religious texts in other parts of the world.

In GW2 everything is a commodity
There might be things dubbed currencies. There might be things such as gold which you are trained to perceive as a currency. But open your eyes, all of those are just commodities. There is no currency in GW2 by any scientific definition of the word currency. Everything is a commodity you can produce at will, in any amount.

The important question:
What in gods name are sustenance and convenience items still doing in the gem shop, when western ingame economies are geared towards luxury instead of sustenance? It is like one division (game designers) figured out what was entertaining about an economy and the other one (monetization guys) is stuck in the 19th century version of consumerism. One economy tries everything to make earning and spending “money” fun. The one economy actually affecting ArenaNet’s bottom line has little trace of that.

I think we need to forget a bit about the average player for a second and talk about the economy as a whole. I would love the thread to focus on the real world versus THIS in game economy specifically. First and foremost, we can really debate all day about what it should look like, but the bottomline is that we really have no hard numbers.

If you want an intelligent conversation about real world versus in game economies, John, you might have to spew some facts. Granted i know we all perceive things differently, but that’s a huge problem when debating this type of thing. Great, gw2 TP is working as intended, but we have people that say it’s not working well, and a million concepts as to why.

There are a good amount of folks willing to talk the talk, now lets walk the walk. what is it you or anyone in particular are looking to learn about the gw2 eco? Some people say it’s fine while others are at the ideal that people are completely rapping it for every penny. Tell us what you see…

First of all FourthVariety, if you use the popular definition of currency then yes we have a currency, coin. Otherwise we would be trading copper ore and logs directly directly for armor, weapons and additional gathering tools. A currency is needed as a mediator for trading commodities and all that’s need is wide spread acceptance. Since we aren’t given a choice and that there is no direct player trading, that’s that. Coin is the currency of the realm. Now it’s value is entirely artificial, as in the demand for items are not taken into account when their price was fixed. This is one reason certain items are glutted at the TP at one copper above vender price. We simply aren’t letting it float to a price where they market will accept it.

Now since this isn’t a true real world economy, vendors both create and destroy gold and the items they buy and sell. Crafting materials, items and coin are created as drops by critters who themselves are not a slowly renewing resource but often respawn in the same are within a minute or two. The only thing that slows down the creation is DR and that’s by a player by player basis.

Now they’ve tried to combat out of control coin growth through the familiar gold sinks of player to player trade fees and equipment repair. The Mystic Forge and salvaging are attempts to control excessive amounts of low price enchanted wares through random chance by either consuming four of one rarity for a chance to create a single rarer item, failure will simply replace the four with one of the same rarity; or by breaking an item down into a reduced number of the most basic materials.

So from a macro economic perspective, a game economy does not resemble any real economy on the planet. There is no real scarcity and there isn’t a true limited sized money supply existing on day 1. And there is another problem, population. In the real world the population tends to grow at a slow and methodical pace. In a game it can have wild swings day to day. I’m guessing more hours are played overall on a weekend than a weekday. In the real world it would be if there was a massive die off every week followed by a population boom of participates who inherited the money a few days later.

However various micro economic systems are very alive and well. Simply watching a single popular commodity being traded easily demonstrate supply and demand, trading cartels, pricing strategies, observing both rational and irrational participants, the effect of rumor vs fact. I believe showing the actual volume people traded daily would help allot but that’s a different discussion.

So how much does the typical player make in a month? I’m guessing you believe you are typical, or probably above average. That’s human nature. That’s also a terrible yardstick to use, because it is entirely possible that the typical player makes far more than you think they do in a month.

Perhaps, but I doubt I’m wrong in thinking that the average player makes less than 500g per month.

My unsubstantiated guess is that I make less than the average player, but more than many. I have eight characters, five at level 80 now, and between them over the course of the game I’ve accumulated roughly 200gold, most of that over the past few months with an increased availability of rares and spending more of my time in dungeon runs than I once did. I think a reasonable stab is that the average player makes less than 50g per month though, 10% of the cost of many precursors.

I think we need to forget a bit about the average player for a second and talk about the economy as a whole. I would love the thread to focus on the real world versus THIS in game economy specifically. First and foremost, we can really debate all day about what it should look like, but the bottomline is that we really have no hard numbers.

If the numbers we tend to throw around turn out to be inaccurate, then ANet can take that as a request for more accurate data. We can only act from our own experience.

Behellagh.1468:

First of all FourthVariety, if you use the popular definition of currency then yes we have a currency, coin. Otherwise we would be trading copper ore and logs directly directly for armor, weapons and additional gathering tools. A currency is needed as a mediator for trading commodities and all that’s need is wide spread acceptance.

An interesting contrast is the Path of Exile beta, where there is no gold at all. Every currency item has an alternate use. For example, vendors will accept ID scrolls as payment for some items, and town portal scrolls for other items. Instead of embracing a system that lets you trade your excess consumables for something you want, folks are still trying to figure out a way that 5 ID scrolls = 1 whetstone = 1/10 chromatic orb (totally made up numbers), so that when they’re making a trade they can determine whether they’re getting “ripped off”.

It doesn’t seem to matter that a person who really wants an ID scroll and has 400 town portal scrolls could easily part with 10 portal scrolls which might be double the going rate. Folks still want to know what a trade is doing to their net worth relative to how the market values what they have, even if they value it differently. Even if a virtual economy forces players to trade copper for armor, players will come up with some sort of currency.

Ohoni.6057:

So how much does the typical player make in a month? I’m guessing you believe you are typical, or probably above average. That’s human nature. That’s also a terrible yardstick to use, because it is entirely possible that the typical player makes far more than you think they do in a month.

Perhaps, but I doubt I’m wrong in thinking that the average player makes less than 500g per month.

My point isn’t that you’re wrong, it’s just that defining an “optimal” economy using the concept of a typical player when we have no idea what a typical player looks like isn’t particularly illuminating.

For me, an optimal virtual economy is one where the majority of players can afford what they need to experience all the content of the game, and have some money left over for non-essentials. For example, every player should be able to get their training manuals without having to farm dungeons or play the market, and they should be able to have some money left over to buy dyes to customize their armor. Maybe they can’t afford Abyss or Celestial, but they should be able to get something more to their taste than the basic colors they start with.

I think in GW2 the necessities are almost too affordable, and the “nice-to-have” things start looking like necessities, and there’s not much in between those and the high end luxury items. That leaves folks with expendable income that isn’t enough for the high end items, but isn’t needed for anything else. I think that the problem isn’t that precursors are too expensive, but rather there just isn’t anything a little less expensive that is desirable enough for us to spend our extra gold on.

Pandemoniac.4739:

I think in GW2 the necessities are almost too affordable, and the “nice-to-have” things start looking like necessities, and there’s not much in between those and the high end luxury items. That leaves folks with expendable income that isn’t enough for the high end items, but isn’t needed for anything else. I think that the problem isn’t that precursors are too expensive, but rather there just isn’t anything a little less expensive that is desirable enough for us to spend our extra gold on.

There’s a thread by a player today asking what he should do with the 8000+ gold he has in the bank (he included a screenshot of his bank).

My point isn’t that you’re wrong, it’s just that defining an “optimal” economy using the concept of a typical player when we have no idea what a typical player looks like isn’t particularly illuminating.

Perhaps, but the only ones who can define a “typical player” work at ANet, and so far they haven’t. Until then I have to imagine what a typical player likely is, based on what I do, and don’t do, and what others claim to be doing, that sort of thing. It’s a rough guess, at best, but it’s all I have to go on, and I’m fine with that until better numbers come in. I’m not just going to throw up my hands “welp, no numbers, not allowed to have an opinion!”

For me, an optimal virtual economy is one where the majority of players can afford what they need to experience all the content of the game, and have some money left over for non-essentials.

That, to me, would define a functional economy, rather than an ideal one. Anything less would be a “non-functional” economy, but just meeting that bare minimum does not mean there isn’t room for improvement.

I think in GW2 the necessities are almost too affordable, and the “nice-to-have” things start looking like necessities, and there’s not much in between those and the high end luxury items.

That’s the thing, I think that the entire concept of “high end luxury items” is ridiculous in a game. What defines which players are eligible for “high end luxury items” and which aren’t? Are only people who buy gold off gold farmers entitled to such items? Are only people who farm CoF1 for several hours per day eligible for them? Are only people who spend their time flipping mats on the TP worth having access to these items?

Why would those people be more deserving of “high end luxury items” than any other players who have been having fun and playing the game as intended since launch? I’ve put in hundreds of hours playing the game since launch, I think that if there’s any reasonable barrier of what one needs to achieve to be worthy of these “high end luxury items,” I’m fairly sure I’ve met it, and there are plenty of others who have as well without even getting as close as I’ve done. I’m not saying that I’m entitled to have more than other players, but I certainly don’t think I should be entitled to any less.

The way I see it, anything you might define as “high end luxury items” should really fit into the category of what you define as “nice to have” things, if perhaps the high end of that range. They should all be achievable through a month or so of driven play, or several months of relatively casual play.

There’s a thread by a player today asking what he should do with the 8000+ gold he has in the bank (he included a screenshot of his bank).

Give it out to everyone else.

The question we should be asking ourselves here is, What is the real life equivalent of CoF 1?

Behellagh.1468:

First of all FourthVariety, if you use the popular definition of currency then yes we have a currency, coin.

For a currency to work, it needs more than to meet one of the criteria of a currency, it needs to meet all of them.

medium of exchange
unit of account
store of value

Let’s test GW2 Gold for those criteria:

Medium of exchange
Too meet that, money needs to be

1. easily measured to gauge the value
We do not have numbers on the gross domestic GW2 product, average incomes, size of the market, etc. We know how much time we spent earning the ingame gold, but we do not know if that was fast or slow. Basically each player makes an uninformed guess about the value of gold. Right from the start, we have a problem determining its value. Using the gem shop to convert to Dollar does not help either.

2. divisible
GW2 gold fits that perfectly, check.

3. widely accepted
within the confines of the game, yes, the currency is accepted (at least until you hit ascended gear/special motivational items). BUT ArenaNet does not accept gold as payment, which says a lot. First a player has to spend real Dollars on gold, before you can spend gold to buy gems. This is extremely important to note. If ArenaNet does not attribute value, then why should you?

4. relatively safe from inflation
absolutely not. Every player is his own money printing press. A real currency is created by a central bank and a central bank alone. You cannot print Dollars in your basement! You can, however, create GW2 gold from nothing.

unit of account
yes, you can use GW2 gold to measure the value of something. You might get screwed up results because of the whole “medium of exchange” criteria it does not fit, but it works, at least theoretically.

store of value
the entire Euro crisis revolves around this question. If Greece, Spain, etc are in that much debt, how good of a “store of value” is the Euro then? This is what it boils down to.

In GW2, you do not store value using gold! How do you even create value in GW2? By putting in some playing time? GW2 does not reward this with the universal currency of gold. GW2 tosses you a new medium of exchange every month. ArenaNet actively undermines the idea that you use gold to store value.

Imagine you bought the game at release. You played some, but spent nothing and therefore you stored your playing time. Around release, you then stored your playing time in Gold, Karma, Glory, DungeonTokens. A few months later, ArenaNet introduced something new, but you were denied using the “store of value” you had. ArenaNet reset your progress to zero, you had to start over collecting Fractal Relics. Later, it was pristine relics. Even later, your progress started at Zero when you began collecting laurels, then again with guild commendations, Bauble Bobbles and ten other things already scheduled for release.

For somebody seeking gold as a means to store value this is frustrating as hell. Imagine your boss paid you in a different currency every month. Even if the currency paid for all your desires (rent, food, Internet), you would still go crazy having all these different types of money. In Gw2 you cannot even exchange them for one another, or only at random rates which are all over the place. (Converting Karma to gold, converting laurels to items to gold, etc.).

If you played 100h in November and none in April, you have very limited options to access that stored gaming time on the latest stuff the game often revolves around. ArenaNet needs to do this. Otherwise everything feels like a precursor, where the prices outgrow the ability of most players to pay for them.

If your demands towards a currency are very limited, then you might look at GW2 gold as being one. If you seek to add “value” (or whatever you consider it to be) to your account, you need to stop thinking of gold as a currency. All you can put into GW2 is your time and your social bonds. What you get back is:

Gold, tradeable items, soul bound items, 12 unique, non-interchangeable flavors of dungeon tokens, karma, experience, skill points, achievement points, laurels, guild commendation tokens, guild commendations (for the guild) influence, glory, did I miss something?

In the same way the game instances dungeons and the world, the GW2 economy is also very instanced. We might believe in gold because we are used to and the gold economy is the largest “instance” with the most active players interacting. Does not mean, gold meets the criteria of a currency and should be treated as such. You can do it at your own risk though and possibly lose a lot of value you perceive to be in your account going on such a fool’s errant.

All very good points about the value of Gold as a currency. It basically ties into the very limited lack of exchange between the numerous currencies along with the fairly limited earning potential.

Everything you mentioned really touches on why (with this game at least), it’s very difficult to make any real comparisons to RL economies. I really liked how you spoke about people getting paid in different currencies every week/month. That too is very frustrating and to me points to a very potent point, instead of a gear treadmill, we have a currency one.

Ohoni.6057:

My point isn’t that you’re wrong, it’s just that defining an “optimal” economy using the concept of a typical player when we have no idea what a typical player looks like isn’t particularly illuminating.

Perhaps, but the only ones who can define a “typical player” work at ANet, and so far they haven’t. Until then I have to imagine what a typical player likely is, based on what I do, and don’t do, and what others claim to be doing, that sort of thing. It’s a rough guess, at best, but it’s all I have to go on, and I’m fine with that until better numbers come in. I’m not just going to throw up my hands “welp, no numbers, not allowed to have an opinion!”

Everyone is entitled to an opinion. It’s just difficult to discuss an idea when the underlying argument is based on something that different folks perceive differently. Instead of saying the “typical” player, you could say nothing should cost more than 500G, which is what I gather you believe a typical player earns in a month. That way when we’re discussing things I’m not thinking you mean nothing should cost more than 2000 G which might be what I think a typical player earns in a month.

It doesn’t matter that we don’t know for certain what a typical player looks like, it just matters that we understand each other.

Ohoni.6057:

I think in GW2 the necessities are almost too affordable, and the “nice-to-have” things start looking like necessities, and there’s not much in between those and the high end luxury items.

That’s the thing, I think that the entire concept of “high end luxury items” is ridiculous in a game. What defines which players are eligible for “high end luxury items” and which aren’t?

It’s not a matter of deserving, it’s a matter of having a range of goals so that different players with different play styles all have something to work toward. There are players out there that will achieve everything in a week that your idea of a typical player can achieve in a month. Should they not be welcome in a game just because they have more time or more tolerance for doing repetitive stuff?

It doesn’t seem fair to me that the hard core folks should be denied something to work for because the more casual folks would have to spend a really long time to get it.

Pandemoniac.4739:

It’s not a matter of deserving, it’s a matter of having a range of goals so that different players with different play styles all have something to work toward. There are players out there that will achieve everything in a week that your idea of a typical player can achieve in a month. Should they not be welcome in a game just because they have more time or more tolerance for doing repetitive stuff?

It doesn’t seem fair to me that the hard core folks should be denied something to work for because the more casual folks would have to spend a really long time to get it.

Atm what we have is the tp players and the “hardcore” farmers are creating a rise in prices for the things they work towards. This not only effects them, but the rest of the population. So in essence they are actively keeping prices high and at the same time they are infringing on all other players these higher prices. So what your are hypothetically stating “doesn’t seem fair to deny hard core players” is exactly what is actually happening to casuals now.

Essence Snow.3194:

Atm what we have is the tp players and the “hardcore” farmers are creating a rise in prices for the things they work towards. This not only effects them, but the rest of the population. So in essence they are actively keeping prices high and at the same time they are infringing on all other players these higher prices. So what your are hypothetically stating “doesn’t seem fair to deny hard core players” is exactly what is actually happening to casuals now.

I don’t understand the thinking behind everyone should be able to attain a legendary weapon. Anything a casual player can do, the hard core player can accomplish in a fraction of the time., so what might be a long term goal for a casual player isn’t one for a hard core player. You can’t have a game that caters to both play styles without the casual folks not being able to attain some of the things the hard core players can.

There are lots of cool things within reach of the casual player – some of the mystic forge weapons are completely attainable in a month for someone that doesn’t have time to play 5+ hours a day. It makes no sense to me to focus on hard core goals when you’re not a hard core player.

It’s part pf the game that everyone paid for…thus they have paid for the right to be able to obtain everything in it. Now I’m not saying that it should be in the same time frame, but they should be able to obtain them none the less. It just so happens that the way it is set up creates a divide where one group effects the other’s ability to do so. Imo it wouldn’t be such an issue if it didn’t take an already very long process and make it longer. Imagine the shoe being on the other foot…..if casual players made it take longer for non casuals to obtain something.

Essence Snow.3194:

It’s part pf the game that everyone paid for…thus they have paid for the right to be able to obtain everything in it. Now I’m not saying that it should be in the same time frame, but they should be able to obtain them none the less. It just so happens that the way it is set up creates a divide where one group effects the other’s ability to do so. Imo it wouldn’t be such an issue if it didn’t take an already very long process and make it longer. Imagine the shoe being on the other foot…..if casual players made it take longer for non casuals to obtain something.

Well with the introduction of laurels, there are some things that force hard core players to be on par with more casual folks.

I don’t buy the argument that you are entitled to every bit of content in a game because you paid for a game. I own every GW1 campaign, should I be entitled to all of HOM rewards even if I don’t want to do the things to get all of the points?

I think that blaming the hard core folks for driving up prices and ruining your game experience is a flawed way of looking at the situation, but I need to chew on it a bit more to figure out how to explain why I think that.

Pandemoniac.4739:

Essence Snow.3194:

It’s part pf the game that everyone paid for…thus they have paid for the right to be able to obtain everything in it. Now I’m not saying that it should be in the same time frame, but they should be able to obtain them none the less. It just so happens that the way it is set up creates a divide where one group effects the other’s ability to do so. Imo it wouldn’t be such an issue if it didn’t take an already very long process and make it longer. Imagine the shoe being on the other foot…..if casual players made it take longer for non casuals to obtain something.

Well with the introduction of laurels, there are some things that force hard core players to be on par with more casual folks.

I don’t buy the argument that you are entitled to every bit of content in a game because you paid for a game.* I own every GW1 campaign, should I be entitled to all of HOM rewards* even if I don’t want to do the things to get all of the points?

I think that blaming the hard core folks for driving up prices and ruining your game experience is a flawed way of looking at the situation, but I need to chew on it a bit more to figure out how to explain why I think that.

No one is saying something for nothing (your the one adding the striked through part)……I shouldn’t be infringing on your ability to gain those rewards if you want them. I shouldn’t make your rewards take longer than they would have had I not been able to do so.

Btw I am so far from casual it’s not even funny….I just am able to see what is happening to them and feel it’s very unfortunate.

Essence Snow.3194:

I don’t buy the argument that you are entitled to every bit of content in a game because you paid for a game.* I own every GW1 campaign, should I be entitled to all of HOM rewards* even if I don’t want to do the things to get all of the points?

I think that blaming the hard core folks for driving up prices and ruining your game experience is a flawed way of looking at the situation, but I need to chew on it a bit more to figure out how to explain why I think that.

No one is saying something for nothing (your the one adding the striked through part)……I shouldn’t be infringing on your ability to gain those rewards if you want them. I shouldn’t make your rewards take longer than they would have had I not been able to do so.

Btw I am so far from casual it’s not even funny….I just am able to see what is happening to them and feel it’s very unfortunate.

Some of the HOM achievements take quite a bit of platinum to get. I’m not willing to do what needs to be done to make that kind of money, so I don’t have a black widow. I think that’s fair.

So would you feel differently if legendaries weren’t crafted and were just really rare drops? They would probably be just as expensive.

The way I see it the hard core folks are making it easier to get a legendary. If folks weren’t farming and tossing tons of rares into the forge, there would be less supply of precursors and other materials needed for a legendary.

The high prices encourage folks to attempt to get precursors so they can make a profit. How long do you think it would take to make a legendary if you had to find the precursor yourself? Probably longer than it would take to get together the gold to buy one unless you got very lucky. How many legendaries do you think would be for sale if they were worth less?

I a casual player (in terms of time, I’m hard core when it comes to being informed about the games I play). I think it’s funny that I’m on the other side of this discussion from a hard core player who feels sorry for me

I think it’s fair if you are not willing, but if you were willing and I kept pushing the goal line further and further away from you, then I wouldn’t.

Tbh I don’t think they should be for sale via a player influenced market. That would ensure that one’s chances to obtain one were not altered by anyone else, but ofc that would detail relying on this game’s rng……which is a whole other can of worms which would need to be addressed.

The unbalanced high prices funnel players into specific avenues that perpetuate the cycle of….unbalanced high prices>funneled avenue>unbalanced high prices.

Yeah it is rather ironic were are on opposite sides of the fence advocating the other’s side and not our own….lol

The question we should be asking ourselves here is, What is the real life equivalent of CoF 1?

Being a lawyer?

Instead of saying the “typical” player, you could say nothing should cost more than 500G, which is what I gather you believe a typical player earns in a month

If the typical player earned 500g per month then we wouldn’t have any problems.

It’s not a matter of deserving, it’s a matter of having a range of goals so that different players with different play styles all have something to work toward.

And that’s fair if all playstyles progress towards that goal at a similar pace, or if the goals were specific to that playstyle. I don’t expect a TP daytrader to max out their Slayer achievements as fast as someone that farms events, or for someone that farms events to max out the “Gold Hoarder” achievement at quickly, but when there are real tangible goals in the game like getting a Legendary weapon, if some methods can earn it in a fraction of the time that most other methods can, you have to justify why that should be the case.

For what reason should TP daytraders have better weapons than dungeon crawlers or event completers?

It doesn’t seem fair to me that the hard core folks should be denied something to work for because the more casual folks would have to spend a really long time to get it.

Fair enough, but with the way this economy works, those “push goals” should never have anything to do with money. If there are to be goals like that in the game, goals that are considered very difficult to accomplish, then they should not care whether you have 10 gold or 10,000 gold. If you can buy it with money, or buy any significant portion of it with money, then it isn’t a goal worth honoring.

Besides, the idea that getting one legendary should be the end-all of a layer’s experience is silly, there is an achievement for getting ALL of them, that’s, what, 21 legendaries? Even the most diligent players don’t seem to have more than two yet.

So would you feel differently if legendaries weren’t crafted and were just really rare drops? They would probably be just as expensive.

That would be even worse. Getting lucky on an RNG is not an accomplishment, it’s just luck.

Essence Snow.3194:

I think it’s fair if you are not willing, but if you were willing and I kept pushing the goal line further and further away from you, then I wouldn’t.

Tbh I don’t think they should be for sale via a player influenced market. That would ensure that one’s chances to obtain one were not altered by anyone else, but ofc that would detail relying on this game’s rng……which is a whole other can of worms which would need to be addressed.

The unbalanced high prices funnel players into specific avenues that perpetuate the cycle of….unbalanced high prices>funneled avenue>unbalanced high prices.

Yeah it is rather ironic were are on opposite sides of the fence advocating the other’s side and not our own….lol

I think discussions are more interesting when the arguments are made from principle rather than self interest, so we should pat each other on the back.

Let’s forget that precursors exist for a minute and talk about a really rare dropped item. Folks that play more will have a better chance of getting that item. I don’t know of any way to change that. The farmers will put their extras on the market, and after a period of instability while folks figure out what the item is worth, the price will stabilize.

Now imagine this hypothetical item is only useful to maximum level characters, and it takes a significant amount of time for folks that only play a few hours a week to get to that level. As more folks level, the demand goes up, so the price goes up. That makes it harder for some folks to buy the item, but it hasn’t changed how difficult it is to go find one.

The price is higher, but it should be, because there are three items available and 300 people want one. During the time that it took a casual person to level, the hard core folks have earned triple the amount of gold the casual has. I don’t see any way to fix that either. Even if they earn the same gold per hour, the hard core player plays 3x as much, and will be able to afford the higher price. How do you change that reality?

The only circumstances I can think of where the casual player ends up with the short end of the stick unfairly is if they couldn’t gain access to the content where this rare item drops because they don’t have the time to play, for example, they can’t commit to raiding every Weds and Fri.

FourthVariety.5463:

Behellagh.1468:

First of all FourthVariety, if you use the popular definition of currency then yes we have a currency, coin.

For a currency to work, it needs more than to meet one of the criteria of a currency, it needs to meet all of them.

medium of exchange
unit of account
store of value

I’m going to have to break this up due to it’s size, let me just do medium of exchange first. But first, popular definition doesn’t mean economic definition. For the average player who hasn’t taken an econ course in high school or college, currency is simply a medium of exchange.

Let’s test GW2 Gold for those criteria:

Medium of exchange
Too meet that, money needs to be

1. easily measured to gauge the value
We do not have numbers on the gross domestic GW2 product, average incomes, size of the market, etc. We know how much time we spent earning the ingame gold, but we do not know if that was fast or slow. Basically each player makes an uninformed guess about the value of gold. Right from the start, we have a problem determining its value. Using the gem shop to convert to Dollar does not help either.

There is a gauge, how much does X cost. You think the average consumer cares about GDP or size of market? How about a child that buys something for the first time? What they care is that it costs $1.50 for a two liter bottle of Pepsi and $1.00 for a candy bar in the check out line. That’s the gauge they use. For us, it’s what the devs set the vendor prices at. They aren’t affected by inflation, shortages or demand. It’s suppose to be “fair market” value before we all came along adventuring.

2. divisible
GW2 gold fits that perfectly, check.

Obviously.

3. widely accepted
within the confines of the game, yes, the currency is accepted (at least until you hit ascended gear/special motivational items). BUT ArenaNet does not accept gold as payment, which says a lot. First a player has to spend real Dollars on gold, before you can spend gold to buy gems. This is extremely important to note. If ArenaNet does not attribute value, then why should you?

Honestly? Coin is not a legitimate currency because ANet won’t accept it in the real world? You’re missing the point that we are talking “virtual” economy with “virtual” currency here. The only value is within the system.

4. relatively safe from inflation
absolutely not. Every player is his own money printing press. A real currency is created by a central bank and a central bank alone. You cannot print Dollars in your basement! You can, however, create GW2 gold from nothing.

Don’t tell the Zimbabweans or even today’s Argentinians that. And yes it’s true, a game currency is created from nothing solely due to player activity. And unlike the real world it’s also utterly destroyed, again by player activity. The trick is to balance these two artificial forces or at the very least keep the growth due to the difference within reason. Every vendor purchase, every armor repair, every TP purchase, every less than successful salvage destroys some amount of currency or value from the world. You can’t acknowledge just one half of the equation here.

Behellagh.1468:

snip

The initial question was:
“what basis is there for considering the world of video game ‘economics’ has anything to do with ‘real world’ economies.”

Virtual economies have a lot to do with real world economies, IF you look in the right spots. If you look at the right economy, instead of the current EU and U.S. economies which are the most advanced in human history.

Listen to this radio show episode:
http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2012/12/07/166747693/episode-421-the-birth-of-the-dollar-bill

In GW2, any item you can trade is basically a commodity, but also somewhat similar to the 8000 currencies of the pre-civil war U.S. Instead of location being a factor for value, think of time and population tides as important factors. Instead of a phonebook for conversions, you use Excel and gw2spidy.

There is no currency in GW2, but in some way everything exhibits partial features of a currency. The economic approximation ArenaNet is running is still far to the left of the uncanny valley. It is as far from reality as the Loony Toons are from photorealism. But that does not mean the fragments aren’t based on very real things. This is when the virtual economy has everything to do with the real one. The motivations of interacting agents can be the same as in the real world, even if it leaves out as many things as an impressionistic drawing. The laws governing booms and busts can be the same, even though they depend on entirely wacky time tables and population density patterns. Even though something is perceived to be a currency and that something has some resemblence to a currency, it might not be a currency at all. Just as Daffy Duck is not really a Duck.

FourthVariety.5463:

Behellagh.1468:

snip

The initial question was:
“what basis is there for considering the world of video game ‘economics’ has anything to do with ‘real world’ economies.”

Virtual economies have a lot to do with real world economies, IF you look in the right spots. If you look at the right economy, instead of the current EU and U.S. economies which are the most advanced in human history.

Listen to this radio show episode:
http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2012/12/07/166747693/episode-421-the-birth-of-the-dollar-bill

In GW2, any item you can trade is basically a commodity, but also somewhat similar to the 8000 currencies of the pre-civil war U.S. Instead of location being a factor for value, think of time and population tides as important factors. Instead of a phonebook for conversions, you use Excel and gw2spidy.

There is no currency in GW2, but in some way everything exhibits partial features of a currency. The economic approximation ArenaNet is running is still far to the left of the uncanny valley. It is as far from reality as the Loony Toons are from photorealism. But that does not mean the fragments aren’t based on very real things. This is when the virtual economy has everything to do with the real one. The motivations of interacting agents can be the same as in the real world, even if it leaves out as many things as an impressionistic drawing. The laws governing booms and busts can be the same, even though they depend on entirely wacky time tables and population density patterns. Even though something is perceived to be a currency and that something has some resemblence to a currency, it might not be a currency at all. Just as Daffy Duck is not really a Duck.

I was writing part two but I think I’m starting to understand your position with this post.

There isn’t just one universally accepted currency in Tyria. You can’t walk up to any vendor anywhere that’s selling anything and pay just in coin. And because of that, there is no true currency in the game. That’s the point I’m getting from your posts.

I counter that these specialized “currencies” handed out in dungeons, fractals, dailies, and special events should be treated like any customer participation reward program from any business out there. We are rewarded for participating and those who don’t are not. Whether it’s free food at a sandwich shop or cooking ware at a grocer or tickets at an arcade that can be traded for prizes. We are not eligible for that benefit if we don’t participate while the event is going on and past participation before these rewards were offered don’t count.

And yes selling your free pots and pans from the grocer or that cool phone strap from the arcade isn’t going to net you a lot of actual cash. Just as converting Karma, etc doesn’t yield a lot of coin if it’s possible at all. But just as often what you buy with one of these alternate rewards simply can’t be converted to coin because it’s a personal reward.

However none of these event participation currencies alter the value of coin. What you could buy with coin it back in November is still available today. Who took coin back in November still takes coin now. What a vendor charges or pay in coin for an item is the same as it was last November. I believe a new player bonking critters for 100 hours in April will have the same value of coin and items as a new player bonking critters for 100 hours back in November.

The only difference is that today there are more sites to help a player be TP savvy than back then when it comes to converting items to coin. That the general TP IQ has gone up. But the thing is the TP doesn’t create wealth. It shifts it around between players but in the end it always destroys 15% of the coin being used. Yes you, an individual, can make money by exploiting the lack of patience that the majority of players have but everyone can’t if everyone uses it the same way.

But what about TP inflation (or deflation)? Is it truly inflation (or deflation) or just a more mature market settling or the panic buying or selling caused by rumor? Just look at the roller coaster ride with the price of ectos. 22s to 13s to 40s and back to 23s. It’s like using the price of Crude Oil as a measuring stick. What we need is a chart showing the total amount of coin traded at the TP daily. An argument could then be made if the data shows a regular rise as a sign of inflation in terms of a growing player supply of coin. But if it’s flat or decreasing is that a sign of game wide hording or deflation?

@Behellagh You’re missing one very important difference. None of those currencies have any value at all. In your sandwich example, the personal reward isn’t particularly special since i can buy that same sandwich for cash. There’s nothing in society that would even remotely “gate” a completely unique personal reward behind fake money. But, yet Anet does this with a very large amount of things in comparison. What’s the value of Ascended gear? Or dungeon gear? Or fused weapon claim tickets? The list goes on and on, yet somehow it makes sense to someone that these extremely gated items make people happy.

munkiman.3068:

@Behellagh You’re missing one very important difference. None of those currencies have any value at all. In your sandwich example, the personal reward isn’t particularly special since i can buy that same sandwich for cash. There’s nothing in society that would even remotely “gate” a completely unique personal reward behind fake money. But, yet Anet does this with a very large amount of things in comparison. What’s the value of Ascended gear? Or dungeon gear? Or fused weapon claim tickets? The list goes on and on, yet somehow it makes sense to someone that these extremely gated items make people happy.

In the real world, you have awards and medals that you cannot buy, but can only be earned through personal accomplishments. You have these “Thank you for 30 years of service” plaques. Come on now, there’s plenty of things in society today that you can’t buy with money.

Ursan.7846:

munkiman.3068:

@Behellagh You’re missing one very important difference. None of those currencies have any value at all. In your sandwich example, the personal reward isn’t particularly special since i can buy that same sandwich for cash. There’s nothing in society that would even remotely “gate” a completely unique personal reward behind fake money. But, yet Anet does this with a very large amount of things in comparison. What’s the value of Ascended gear? Or dungeon gear? Or fused weapon claim tickets? The list goes on and on, yet somehow it makes sense to someone that these extremely gated items make people happy.

In the real world, you have awards and medals that you cannot buy, but can only be earned through personal accomplishments.

Absolutely untrue, with maybe a very few minor exceptions, everything has a price and at some point i could possible buy an Olympic gold metal or an Oscar with enough cash. There’s one glaring difference however “binding” an item. A bound item will never be sell-able for anything worth much (i.e. vender value). If we use that as a measure of worth than the economy in this game is absolutely horrible.

munkiman.3068:

Absolutely untrue, with maybe a very few minor exceptions, everything has a price and at some point i could possible buy an Olympic gold metal or an Oscar with enough cash. There’s one glaring difference however “binding” an item. A bound item will never be sell-able for anything worth much (i.e. vender value). If we use that as a measure of worth than the economy in this game is absolutely horrible.

You’re fixiated on the physical value of the Medals. Sure, you can buy a Olympic Gold Medal with money. I’m sure it’ll have value to you, but it doesn’t make you an Olympic medalist. The physical value of the metal is completely independent of the value of WINNING which is an accomplishment that you cannot buy with money. Michael Phelps can sell his Gold Medal, but he doesn’t need that piece of metal to earn his rightful place in history as one of the greatest swimmers ever.

EDIT: Gold MedalS. Forgive me, Phelps.

munkiman.3068:

@Behellagh You’re missing one very important difference. None of those currencies have any value at all. In your sandwich example, the personal reward isn’t particularly special since i can buy that same sandwich for cash. There’s nothing in society that would even remotely “gate” a completely unique personal reward behind fake money. But, yet Anet does this with a very large amount of things in comparison. What’s the value of Ascended gear? Or dungeon gear? Or fused weapon claim tickets? The list goes on and on, yet somehow it makes sense to someone that these extremely gated items make people happy.

But all of these in game rewards that use different currencies and unique stores are there to encourage and reward participation in an aspect or special event. Where everyone starts with an even playing field. And that is what bugs the heck out of people. “But I have X amount of gold, why can’t I by that armor skin or mini-pet.” Well it’s only for those who are willing to participate moron! Sorry but it ticks me off that people can’t grasp that concept.

Yes we live in a world where everything is for sale, even if we don’t deserve it. Want a Super Bowl ring, an Oscar or even an Olympic Medal. No problem if you have enough cash and the means to find one for sale. “Why yes I walked on the Moon and here’s my rock to prove it.”

Sorry, in games, that type of prestige reward isn’t for sale. Man up and do the darn content if you want the prize. Don’t complain that the economy isn’t realistic because you can’t spend the fortune you made flipping on the TP to get an item that is only available to those who earned it.

Would you take a job that did not earn you any money? You would have everything you wanted for as long as you took the job, but lose it all when you quit. Think about why you chose yes or no.

Over at the gaming site, would you play a game for a reward only intrinsic to the process of playing. The reward would fizzle the second you play, even if you just took a break to sleep. Which type of game would you expect to be that way and do you play such games?

Now compare your attitude to the job offer I described with loot mechanics in MMOs.

FourthVariety.5463:

Would you take a job that did not earn you any money? You would have everything you wanted for as long as you took the job, but lose it all when you quit. Think about why you chose yes or no.

Over at the gaming site, would you play a game for a reward only intrinsic to the process of playing. The reward would fizzle the second you play, even if you just took a break to sleep. Which type of game would you expect to be that way and do you play such games?

Now compare your attitude to the job offer I described with loot mechanics in MMOs.

Do you mind elucidating your analogy? It sounds interesting, but I have a hard time wrapping my mind around it. What is your core argument, and how does your analogy tie into your argument?

Behellagh.1468:

munkiman.3068:

@Behellagh You’re missing one very important difference. None of those currencies have any value at all. In your sandwich example, the personal reward isn’t particularly special since i can buy that same sandwich for cash. There’s nothing in society that would even remotely “gate” a completely unique personal reward behind fake money. But, yet Anet does this with a very large amount of things in comparison. What’s the value of Ascended gear? Or dungeon gear? Or fused weapon claim tickets? The list goes on and on, yet somehow it makes sense to someone that these extremely gated items make people happy.

But all of these in game rewards that use different currencies and unique stores are there to encourage and reward participation in an aspect or special event. Where everyone starts with an even playing field. And that is what bugs the heck out of people. “But I have X amount of gold, why can’t I by that armor skin or mini-pet.” Well it’s only for those who are willing to participate moron! Sorry but it ticks me off that people can’t grasp that concept.

Yes we live in a world where everything is for sale, even if we don’t deserve it. Want a Super Bowl ring, an Oscar or even an Olympic Medal. No problem if you have enough cash and the means to find one for sale. “Why yes I walked on the Moon and here’s my rock to prove it.”

Sorry, in games, that type of prestige reward isn’t for sale. Man up and do the darn content if you want the prize. Don’t complain that the economy isn’t realistic because you can’t spend the fortune you made flipping on the TP to get an item that is only available to those who earned it.

Then you are of an entirely different mindset. I’m not whining or complaining btw. I worked very long and hard for my career, i will never compare that to my earnings or achievements in a video game, it’s a game, it’s meant to be played for enjoyment or even competition, if one so chooses. It’s not to be compared with real life accomplishments, in any way shape or form. It actually saddens me that people do look at it that way and I would venture to guess that’s where the phrase “get a life” comes from. My working life even relies on video games and i don’t take it nearly as serious as anything in my daily life.

So far the justification for gated content that has little to no in-game monetary value is personal reward (just like that of a gold medal)? Remember what the point of this thread is, economics.

Ursan.7846:

munkiman.3068:

Absolutely untrue, with maybe a very few minor exceptions, everything has a price and at some point i could possible buy an Olympic gold metal or an Oscar with enough cash. There’s one glaring difference however “binding” an item. A bound item will never be sell-able for anything worth much (i.e. vender value). If we use that as a measure of worth than the economy in this game is absolutely horrible.

You’re fixiated on the physical value of the Medals. Sure, you can buy a Olympic Gold Medal with money. I’m sure it’ll have value to you, but it doesn’t make you an Olympic medalist. The physical value of the metal is completely independent of the value of WINNING which is an accomplishment that you cannot buy with money. Michael Phelps can sell his Gold Medal, but he doesn’t need that piece of metal to earn his rightful place in history as one of the greatest swimmers ever.

EDIT: Gold MedalS. Forgive me, Phelps.

I actually don’t find value in running a dungeon I don’t particularly enjoy for armor that i do like, i actually call that work and i already work enough. Why can’t i just play the game and buy what i like? I can in the real world, eh? I would hardly call getting dungeon tokens earnings or personal rewards of much economic value, you’re talking about something vastly different. That’s actually what the discussion is about, so i was trying to stay on point. I think you entirely missed the binding issue and why these items have very limited in-game monetary value.

munkiman.3068:

I actually don’t find value in running a dungeon I don’t particularly enjoy for armor that i do like, i actually call that work and i already work enough. Why can’t i just play the game and buy what i like? I can in the real world, eh? I would hardly call getting dungeon tokens earnings or personal rewards of much economic value, you’re talking about something vastly different. That’s actually what the discussion is about, so i was trying to stay on point. I think you entirely missed the binding issue and why these items have very limited in-game monetary value.

Because we are dealing with prestige, and its monetary value. Some forms of prestige simply cannot be bought with money. (Full Arah set, Olympic Gold Medal). And some can.

Both the virtual world and the real world have many examples of this.

The Gamasutra article by Ramin Shokrizade puts it very well.

Real world economies involves the careful distribution of finite resources to the population to maximize societal productivity. In the real world, resources start off in abundance (especially things like air and water) and become more scarce over time. In order to simplify the math, many economists pretend that things like air and water are infinite, but clearly they are not, and clean air and water can quickly become scarce if these resources are abused on an extraordinary scale.

Virtual economies are upside down from “real” economies, and this causes many conventional economists to come to false conclusions when evaluating these environments. In a virtual world the economy starts with little (if a seed is provided) or no (more typical) resources and all economic currencies increase rapidly over time, approaching infinity if the world is not properly designed with resource sinks that dynamically remove resources from the environment at roughly the rate they are created.

Essence Snow.3194:

It’s part pf the game that everyone paid for…thus they have paid for the right to be able to obtain everything in it.

I don’t have nearly the time to respond to all the things I want to in this thread, but this claim is just absurd.

Purchasing a game doesn’t grant anyone any “rights” beyond the EULA and ToS right to access the the software in compliance with Anet’s stated terms. That’s it. No other rights exist whatsoever. This is not a point of debate, contention, or discussion. It’s absolute fact. Put simply, if you disagree with that statement, you are wrong.

We could have a huge philosophical debate as to what privileges should be granted to users on the basis of the their financial transaction with Anet. Within that discussion, an incredibly small minority might argue for “the right to be able to obtain everything in [GW2].” I’m assuming an implicit “over a reasonable period of time” claim tacked on the end. As written, or even with that out clause, I’d argue that GW2 already satisfies that claimed privilege (although it’s still likely a minority view). The fact of the matter is there’s no compelling argument to support that demand. “But we paid money” doesn’t carry any weight as the money paid was to access the software and absolutely nothing else, express or implied.

Syeria.4812:

Essence Snow.3194:

It’s part pf the game that everyone paid for…thus they have paid for the right to be able to obtain everything in it.

I don’t have nearly the time to respond to all the things I want to in this thread, but this claim is just absurd.

Purchasing a game doesn’t grant anyone any “rights” beyond the EULA and ToS right to access the the software in compliance with Anet’s stated terms. That’s it. No other rights exist whatsoever. This is not a point of debate, contention, or discussion. It’s absolute fact. Put simply, if you disagree with that statement, you are wrong.

We could have a huge philosophical debate as to what privileges should be granted to users on the basis of the their financial transaction with Anet. Within that discussion, an incredibly small minority might argue for “the right to be able to obtain everything in [GW2].” I’m assuming an implicit “over a reasonable period of time” claim tacked on the end. As written, or even with that out clause, I’d argue that GW2 already satisfies that claimed privilege (although it’s still likely a minority view). The fact of the matter is there’s no compelling argument to support that demand. “But we paid money” doesn’t carry any weight as the money paid was to access the software and absolutely nothing else, express or implied.

We are definitely going to have to disagree then. What is it that one is purchasing then if not purchasing access to content? One would simply not pay full price for partial content.

Even though I am well aware of the tos, I am also aware that ip legalities are not up to date…ie…what may be implied in a tos may not be technically legal..it’s just that documented law hasn’t caught up with tech….ie the tos is not above consumer rights. A good example of this would be what we have seen with refunds.

Ursan.7846:

munkiman.3068:

I actually don’t find value in running a dungeon I don’t particularly enjoy for armor that i do like, i actually call that work and i already work enough. Why can’t i just play the game and buy what i like? I can in the real world, eh? I would hardly call getting dungeon tokens earnings or personal rewards of much economic value, you’re talking about something vastly different. That’s actually what the discussion is about, so i was trying to stay on point. I think you entirely missed the binding issue and why these items have very limited in-game monetary value.

Because we are dealing with prestige, and its monetary value. Some forms of prestige simply cannot be bought with money. (Full Arah set, Olympic Gold Medal). And some can.

Both the virtual world and the real world have many examples of this.

Again, not the same. An Olympic gold medal has value, a monetary value. An Arah set has only a look, nothing more. The earning potential alone in real world medals and awards are far more withstanding than “earning” an armor set in a video game. Simply comparing the two in economic terms makes a rather large distinction. This not to mention how disposable getting an Arah set actually is.

Gold in GW2 meets every criteria of a currency. It is a widely accepted medium of exchange, a commonly cited unit of account, and a strong store of value. Whatever definition people are creating under which GW2 gold is not a currency is wrong.

munkiman.3068:

Again, not the same. An Olympic gold medal has value, a monetary value. An Arah set has only a look, nothing more. The earning potential alone in real world medals and awards are far more withstanding than “earning” an armor set in a video game. Simply comparing the two in economic terms makes a rather large distinction. This not to mention how disposable getting an Arah set actually is.

There’s a certain prestige associated with Arah sets. Because it’s only attained through a certain unique activity. It can’t be purchased with gold.

There’s a certain prestige with winning an Olympic Gold Medal. It’s only attained through a certain unique activity. The achievement of winning an Olympics can’t be purchased with gold.

I believe the original topic was “rewards which are gated behind certain unique activities do not exists in the real world.” Well, that exists in the real world too.

EDIT: By the way, an Arah set does have a monetary value since you can salvage them for ectos and sell said ectos.

Ursan.7846:

munkiman.3068:

Again, not the same. An Olympic gold medal has value, a monetary value. An Arah set has only a look, nothing more. The earning potential alone in real world medals and awards are far more withstanding than “earning” an armor set in a video game. Simply comparing the two in economic terms makes a rather large distinction. This not to mention how disposable getting an Arah set actually is.

There’s a certain prestige associated with Arah sets. Because it’s only attained through a certain unique activity. It can’t be purchased with gold.

There’s a certain prestige with winning an Olympic Gold Medal. It’s only attained through a certain unique activity. The achievement of winning an Olympics can’t be purchased with gold.

I believe the original topic was “rewards which are gated behind certain unique activities do not exists in the real world.” Well, that exists in the real world too.

Then you misunderstood. Rewards gated behind certain activities that hold little to no economic value. Prestige value is also questionable, I’d certainly place far more prestigious value on a gold medal over Arah armor, but that’s nether here nor there.

munkiman.3068:

Then you misunderstood. Rewards gated behind certain activities that hold little to no economic value.

I don’t understand. Why not?

Going back to Behellagh’s Sandwich example. A customer loyalty program that rewards sandwiches HAS monetary value. So what if you can buy a sandwich with cash? It’s the opportunity cost of not having to spend that cash in the first place.

Same thing with Arah. Getting a full dungeon set removes the need to buy exotic to equip your character. That is value. Heck with dungeon sets you can actually convert them into ectos, which is value.

munkiman.3068:

Prestige value is also questionable, I’d certainly place far more prestigious value on a gold medal over Arah armor, but that’s nether here nor there.

Seriously? Of course an Olympic Gold Medal carries far more prestige than an Arah armor. The concept (Of rewards only attained through an unique activity) is what’s important, and why I used those two as an analogy.

EDIT: Also, I just want clarification on your core argument. My core point is directed towards your statement, that

There’s nothing in society that would even remotely “gate” a completely unique personal reward

Which is completely untrue. There are many rewards that are “gated” by unique activities in society today. I’m just curious as how the argument of whether these rewards have “value” or not have anything to do with this core argument.

munkiman.3068:

Ursan.7846:

munkiman.3068:

Again, not the same. An Olympic gold medal has value, a monetary value. An Arah set has only a look, nothing more. The earning potential alone in real world medals and awards are far more withstanding than “earning” an armor set in a video game. Simply comparing the two in economic terms makes a rather large distinction. This not to mention how disposable getting an Arah set actually is.

There’s a certain prestige associated with Arah sets. Because it’s only attained through a certain unique activity. It can’t be purchased with gold.

There’s a certain prestige with winning an Olympic Gold Medal. It’s only attained through a certain unique activity. The achievement of winning an Olympics can’t be purchased with gold.

I believe the original topic was “rewards which are gated behind certain unique activities do not exists in the real world.” Well, that exists in the real world too.

Then you misunderstood. Rewards gated behind certain activities that hold little to no economic value. Prestige value is also questionable, I’d certainly place far more prestigious value on a gold medal over Arah armor, but that’s nether here nor there.

If they hold no value why are there so many threads complaining that it’s not fair gating them? Obviously to the those who desire them they have value. They are willing to trade coin for it so that establishes value.

Oh and earlier I wasn’t directing my comment specifically at you munk. You were just the most recent person echoing the sentiment that somehow assigning a set of items for doing a particular activity is wrong, that those items should be freely available for all if you have the coin.

Those big stuff animals you can win at a carnival can be purchased if you know a supplier but it’s value to the person who received it is knowing that someone spent a stupid amount of money to “win” it for them. The suggestion that everyone should act like Veruca Salt a demand to be able to buy whatever instead of earning it disturbs me.

Ursan.7846:

munkiman.3068:

Then you misunderstood. Rewards gated behind certain activities that hold little to no economic value.

I don’t understand. Why not?

Going back to Behellagh’s Sandwich example. A customer loyalty program that rewards sandwiches HAS monetary value. So what if you can buy a sandwich with cash? It’s the opportunity cost of not having to spend that cash in the first place.

Same thing with Arah. Getting a full dungeon set removes the need to buy exotic to equip your character. That is value. Heck with dungeon sets you can actually convert them into ectos, which is value.

munkiman.3068:

Prestige value is also questionable, I’d certainly place far more prestigious value on a gold medal over Arah armor, but that’s nether here nor there.

Seriously? Of course an Olympic Gold Medal carries far more prestige than an Arah armor. The concept (Of rewards only attained through an unique activity) is what’s important, and why I used those two as an analogy.

EDIT: Also, I just want clarification on your core argument. My core point is directed towards your statement, that

There’s nothing in society that would even remotely “gate” a completely unique personal reward

Which is completely untrue. There are many rewards that are “gated” by unique activities in society today. I’m just curious as how the argument of whether these rewards have “value” or not have anything to do with this core argument.

Responding on an iPad so I’ll make a valiant attempt. What is the monetary value of an Arah set? What can I buy one for? You’re saying it’s prestige holds value, I’m saying it doesn’t in any way near the same way your examples do. In the sandwich example what is the value of a free sandwich? It’s easy to gauge, since I can simply buy the sandwich.

I was saying, the value of the awards/medals can actually be gauged monetarily.

Using a randomly generated value via salvage really doesn’t help much. And if you’re saying it’s a substitute for buying exotics (or crafting them) than you haven’t run Arah with a party of people with in no better than rare gear. Even so, value for equal exotic gear isn’t gated beyond just playing the game.

munkiman.3068:

You’re saying it’s prestige holds value

No,. I’m directly refuting your previous statement.

munkiman.3068:

There’s nothing in society that would even remotely “gate” a completely unique personal reward

There are personal rewards in society today that are “gated” by unique activities.