Guild Wars 2

Charr are used to fighting in an army, norn are used to fighting alone.
So in 1v1, Norn. In a full scale war, Charr hands down.

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

Charr are used to fighting in an army, norn are used to fighting alone.
So in 1v1, Norn. In a full scale war, Charr hands down.

I’d have said “charr are used to unit tactics” since they function in warbands more than armies. But norn have no need of armies, they are norn . (Yes, thank you, go back to your game now.)

hmmm Norn lose half their territory to a single dragon..

Charr fight three opponents and dont budge an inch..

I’m going to say Charr win if it came down to a war, in single combat though, I think odds are fairly even, not considering the Charrs fangs, claws and the like.

Kuro Zetsumei.1397:

hmmm Norn lose half their territory to a single dragon..

Charr fight three opponents and dont budge an inch..

Charr also lost a swath of their territory to the Brand, though they really don’t admit it as “lost completely”. And that’s from Kral not even trying as Jormag did . . . I don’t doubt if Kralkatorrik decided to go back and mess with the charr?

We’d see them make one glorious last stand and get eradicated as any sort of power on Tyria. Much like the dwarves.

Charr also have the immense benefit of guns and mass production.

Zaxares.5419:

Charr also have the immense benefit of guns and mass production.

And if there’s nobody able to use the guns, that’s a problem

True, although it seems that Charr have a naturally higher birth rate than humans do.

Kuro Zetsumei.1397:

…….. in single combat though, I think odds are fairly even, not considering the Charrs fangs, claws and the like.

How about considering the norn fangs, claws and the like?

I think anyone comparing charr and norn in size and power ratio is taking it too realistic. Norn are known to have supernatural strength, for their size. A human in the same size of a norn wouldn’t possess the same strength.

What people also forget is that the Spirits enhance the norn’s abilities, something charr lacks. In the Edge of Destiny book it’s described how Eir not only uses the strength of one Spirit, but several, to sculpture the statues, and later using the same moves against the attacking Svanir.

Norn are known to take on foes way beyond their size or foes that outnumber them 10 to 1, and singlehandedly defeat them. There’s a female norn in Cursed Shore who kill the Risen for sport, even saying that the Risen are boring foes and the event revolves around making the risen berserk at her so she can get a challenge. Even then, she gets out without a single injury.

As I said in a post before, charr aren’t individuals. Charr grow up working in teams and I think the majority of charr who fights under the Legion are at a disadvantage when fighting alone, because their whole life revolves around their role in their warband, fighting as a team among allies, not as an individual. Norn on the other hand is the opposite, they grow up mostly independent and thrive as single individuals.

Someone else put it well: norn win fights and small battles, charr win wars.

Although the charr have sharp claws and teeth, due to their size they lack the agility we normally associate with cats. Norn are bigger and stronger and so they’d probably in 1 on 1 fights.

However in an all out war the Charr would win as they have vast armies and lots of technology for war. Only the Asura would be able to beat them in a war.

Sundar.1735:

Although the charr have sharp claws and teeth, due to their size they lack the agility we normally associate with cats.

What? O.o

Sundar.1735:

Although the charr have sharp claws and teeth, due to their size they lack the agility we normally associate with cats. Norn are bigger and stronger and so they’d probably in 1 on 1 fights.

However in an all out war the Charr would win as they have vast armies and lots of technology for war. Only the Asura would be able to beat them in a war.

Firstly Charr are as big than Norn (Norn have more strengh, but not more power),
Secondly Asuras wouldn’t be able to beat Charr in war, but they are able to withstand the Charrs’s assault if they are in Rata Sum.

arthurobenzi.2619:

(Norn have more strengh, but not more power),

I’d question the definition of power here. Then I’d ask for the source.

Norn for sure would win (not even factoring in taking on bear/wolf/leopard/raven form)

Heck I would wager a single norn could easily take out a small warband. A small group of norn can tackle larger ones. Charr would win in a war though as they have number, large rank and file armies and technology.

A friend jokingly made the comparison of lord of the rings (might not work completely but it still gets the point across). A single troll can decimate dozens and dozens of soldier but the soldiers can eventually take them down with strength of numbers and use of tactics. Ya it was a bad anaology but hey -shrug-

In Sea of Sorrows, two norn brothers throw charr which one was on the big size for charr if I remember, one after another high into the air to land on a nearby ship. They were chucking these guys like 20ft into the air.

Norn as a people have a culture about building legends. Sure they boast but to live in the environment they do and have lives based all around doing these incredible feats worthy of legend and song, they have to actually have the actions to back up their claim. If not they would have probably died out long ago.

Heck a norn, Asgeir knocking out Jormag’s tooth, keep in mind that he was being aided by the Spirits of the Wild during that battle though so that is probably much different.

The norn do have a supernatural strength that is waaaaay out of proportion for how much their bodies ‘should’ be able to lift realistically. A large male norn can easily lift a boulder multiple times his own size. No other playable race can probably lift a boulder even ‘close’ to their own size.

They are a people who create legends and heros and have the skill to back up their talk. So ya. 1v1 norn for sure.

Very nicely written, Drewan. What most people get wrong is that they compare size. A charr can realistically lift what he/she seems capable of, a norn can lift way beyond what seems realistic to their size. Something more equal to norn would probably be giants, as norn possess strength more of their size even if norn are smaller.

With that in mind, you get why people fear norn the most as a single individual. It’s not just because of their boastful legends or size alone, but the fact they’ve proven to be capable of feats way beyond realistically possible.

The problem is that this is a speech of deaf, because you are confusing two different things . Yes the norn have a supernatural strength , this mean the ability to carry very heavy loads ( like the two brother who throw charrs , but don’t forget than Rytlock had also threw Eir ). But in a power ratio they are the same, because they have the same hit power ( in-game dialog ).

We aren’t speaking game mechanics though. This is a pure lore debate. If a charr punched a human in the head he’d probably fracture something, knock out some teeth and send him flying. Probably knock him out. If a full grown norn man say punched a human in the head he’s more likely to flat out kill him -crack- skull shattered. Because of their immense strength. (Just an analogy to compare their power)

Also keep in mind Eir is average size for a norn and a woman (weighs less than the guys) she isn’t mammoth huge like other norn so I’m not surprised Rytlock could throw her. On the other hand I bet she could throw like two fully armoured Rytilocks if she had to.

I remember there was a thread on the Guild Wars 2 RP fan forum (it’s gone now. Noooo) that talked about norn strength. Factoring in how crazy strong they could be. No one but probably the biggest and strongest of charr would be able to block a weapon blow from a norn if they put their full strength into a swing as it would probably just break the arm of the defender who tried to block or knock the wepaon clean from their hand.

I don’t want to down play charr though, every race has their strengths and weaknesses. Norn = better at fighting with small numbers
Charr=better at fighting within large armies with advanced weaponry

+1 here

norn win single bouts
charr win full scale war

It’s completely a lore debate, as Drewan mentioned. In-game all races are equal, because it’s the game mechanics. You see norn Vigil soldiers dying just as easily as human Vigil soldiers, when majority of the cases, a norn Vigil soldier would equal from 5 to even 20 humans soldiers depending on their size and skills.

Also don’t get me wrong either, I love charr. I led a charr only RP guild with about 20-30 active members for over a year on Piken Square, but what I always factored into my guilds RP was that our organized attacks and teamwork is what made us great.

Once a norn came to the Black Citadel to duel us, and I made it clear norn are way more powerful. He beat us all in a 1v1, until one of the charr used cheap tricks to win, as charr are known from back in GW1 to fight dirty, they don’t fight honorably. It was fun to see.

Stop confusing two different things, the force (which can carry heavy loads) and the power of a punch are dissociated.
A human example of heavyweight lifting champion can carry colossal weight, but if he had to make a game of boxing he will not hold the shock.
Now Take Rocky Marciano, a world champion boxer who was probably the most powerful puncher, it is not able to carry weights as heavy as a champion of weightlifting.

And secondly you forget an important detail: the anatomy.
Norns like humans, to a blow mainly use a movement from the shoulders and including the arms. The legs are used to support and although the individual pent forward momentum in the shots, the position remains static.
The energy of the punch comes from the bust , and carry heavy loads human anatomy is perfect because our legs used to support heavy loads , while allowing the bust keeps a vertical position , and thus through the muscles of the shoulders, back and arms to support the weight in question.

In the case of Charr it is different because their back is already rounded (= unequal load distribution) , and their legs are not vertical (limitation of weight carried by the arm). The Charr are anatomically not adapted to carry heavyweight .
But as regards the punches against their anatomy is an advantage.
Because the Charr in the strength of their legs projecting all their mass, this force acts like a springs that is compressed and expands in one fell swoop.
(to understand , try to jog four legs propelling yourself with your legs).
This “Spring Force” allows at punch to multiply the power of the final blow.
Therefore the strength of a charr can never equal the Norn, but their punchs are almost as strong.

But more than this, the strength of Norns is “static” while the Charr are “dynamic” over their natural agility. If a Norn and Charr confronts in a boxing match, the Norn wins since he is statically more powerful,
but in a true duel the powers will balance.

This was for the 1vs1 mano a mano .
For war, the Charr win for sure in the present state of things, but if the Norn creates a military organization, the powers also balance out.

I’d like some sort of lore reference that says the punches of a charr are about even with a norn. I don’t see how anybody can make that claim without lore examples or hard numbers to say that any potential charr mechanical advantage is enough to match the strength adavantage of the norn.

because as far as small skirmishes go, we have seen in lore that norn tend to take on forces of charr that outnumber them. So all the theory crafting about the anatomy and the difference between lift strength and punch strength doesn’t seem to be reflected in the lore. perhaps the advantage for the charr is there mechanically but it doesn’t seem to be enough to contend with the power and skill of the norn. So all factors considered, the powers don’t tend to balance out.

^^ this. Plus if we are going by anatomy and what not then based on how their bodies are proportioned and built, they shouldn’t have the strength they do in lore.

But they do so you can’t really judge them on real world anatomy and science when they already defy those laws.

Lonewolf Kai.3682:

Sundar.1735:

Although the charr have sharp claws and teeth, due to their size they lack the agility we normally associate with cats.

What? O.o

The charr are clumsy. They’re a pain to do jumping puzzles with because of their size. They’re not as agile as cats in the real world.

arthurobenzi.2619:

Sundar.1735:

Although the charr have sharp claws and teeth, due to their size they lack the agility we normally associate with cats. Norn are bigger and stronger and so they’d probably in 1 on 1 fights.

However in an all out war the Charr would win as they have vast armies and lots of technology for war. Only the Asura would be able to beat them in a war.

Firstly Charr are as big than Norn (Norn have more strengh, but not more power),
Secondly Asuras wouldn’t be able to beat Charr in war, but they are able to withstand the Charrs’s assault if they are in Rata Sum.

Norn are bigger and more muscular (heavier) and Asura are the most technologically advanced of the playable races and even though their technology isn’t made for war, they have deadly superweapons that could easily destroy the Black Citadel. They also control the waypoints.

Sundar.1735:

Norn are bigger and more muscular (heavier) and Asura are the most technologically advanced of the playable races and even though their technology isn’t made for war, they have deadly superweapons that could easily destroy the Black Citadel. They also control the waypoints.

“Charr weapons are second to none”

Yes, asuras may have more advanced technology, but it is either more fragile and – face it – caused ALOT of cataclysms and destructions already not by meaning of their work, but by failure of it’s engines or other components.

Charr technology is heavy and simple, comparing to asuran. And… It’s just reliable.
Even in storyline, it is proven many times, that charr are Tyria’s famous leaders in gunnery. Iron Legion makes hell of a job, doing: tanks, which destroy hordes of undead, Ghostfire Shells, which consume EVERYTHING on it’s path… Even Pact weaponry is based on charrs engineering, throught supported by asuran improvement devices.

Look at the Black Citadel. Have you seen it’s tanks and cannons? THIS IS A HAVOC.

Dustfinger.9510:

I’d like some sort of lore reference that says the punches of a charr are about even with a norn. I don’t see how anybody can make that claim without lore examples or hard numbers to say that any potential charr mechanical advantage is enough to match the strength adavantage of the norn.

because as far as small skirmishes go, we have seen in lore that norn tend to take on forces of charr that outnumber them. So all the theory crafting about the anatomy and the difference between lift strength and punch strength doesn’t seem to be reflected in the lore. perhaps the advantage for the charr is there mechanically but it doesn’t seem to be enough to contend with the power and skill of the norn. So all factors considered, the powers don’t tend to balance out.

Drewan.5681:

^^ this. Plus if we are going by anatomy and what not then based on how their bodies are proportioned and built, they shouldn’t have the strength they do in lore.

But they do so you can’t really judge them on real world anatomy and science when they already defy those laws.

There was a dialogue on page 4 of this topic , where a norn told him that he was hitting hard under the influence of alcohol ( ale) and a charr replied that the charrs hit hard all the time. In this dialogue , we can easily understand that the figure of style indicates that the repository is put on the person who first mentioned the subject ( the norn ) and the charr answers in relation to this repository.
In terms of lore, I based on what we can found in written form (in game, or other) , but the lore does not indicate that the norn are more powerful than the charr , but it is mentioned that the norn can lift very heavy loads.
( But I can granted , alleging lore , in ancient times , the norn and jotuns was extremely powerful because they could use magic (before human gods restrict magic) ) .
And theory crafting is only there to fill the lore . If the lore already answered all these questions we would not be here to discuss it .

arthurobenzi.2619:

There was a dialogue on page 4 of this topic , where a norn told him that he was hitting hard under the influence of alcohol ( ale) and a charr replied that the charrs hit hard all the time. In this dialogue , we can easily understand that the figure of style indicates that the repository is put on the person who first mentioned the subject ( the norn ) and the charr answers in relation to this repository.
In terms of lore, I based on what we can found in written form (in game, or other) , but the lore does not indicate that the norn are more powerful than the charr , but it is mentioned that the norn can lift very heavy loads.
( But I can granted , alleging lore , in ancient times , the norn and jotuns was extremely powerful because they could use magic (before human gods restrict magic) ) .
And theory crafting is only there to fill the lore . If the lore already answered all these questions we would not be here to discukitten

arr “You can’t fight if you’re drunk”
Norn: “Ale hardens norn fists”
Charr “Ha! Charr hit hard all the time”

Sounds more like playful banter to me unless you are also implying that norn go through a Popeye-effect and suddenly get super strong only after they’ve had their brew. And then further reason that charr are as strong as these drunk super norn at all times. That doesn’t seem to line up with the lore at all. So if the norn are always as strong as these drunk super norn, how do the norn keeping beating charr with larger number and organizational advantages?

If you acknowledge that lore doesn’t answer the question then you can’t rightly claim that charr and norn have equal hitting power as you have been doing. Right now the lore we do have simply indicates that norn are stronger. Not that their strength is limited to lifting power.

edit: and you misinterpret that dialog. The norn isn’t saying he is hitting hard because he’s under the influence of alchohol. the norn is defending his choice to drink alchohol in the near future when the charr tells him that alchohol has negative effects on the body and he’s going to need his senses keen because they have to go on patrole. It’s the dialog at the end of the champ svanir event.

Kimbo Slice lost a fight to a little shrimp.

Give it up with this superhuman stregnth crap, that has nothing to do with getting whipped in a fight. Skill, agility, experience are all equal factors. Go to the gym and watch all those big guys lifting all those weights, put him in a ring with a trained fighter and watch what happens. Skilled, vicious, and none of that stregnth means anything.

Chars are bred to fight, they have trained since birth, you guys are hilarious. This is a fight we are talking about people.. not a rock lifting contest…

Awaiting your rebuttle….

Apparition.1576:

Kimbo Slice lost a fight to a little shrimp.

Give it up with this superhuman stregnth crap, that has nothing to do with getting whipped in a fight. Skill, agility, experience are all equal factors. Go to the gym and watch all those big guys lifting all those weights, put him in a ring with a trained fighter and watch what happens. Skilled, vicious, and none of that stregnth means anything.

Chars are bred to fight, they have trained since birth, you guys are hilarious. This is a fight we are talking about people.. not a rock lifting contest…

It was given before you even tried. 4th page 11th post down

“And we have already been shown what would tend to happen. So personal anecdotes about getting beat by smaller guys and issues about other advantages being a factor have been addressed. At least by me.”

So by your logic a valid rebuttle only needs me to reference to a big guy beating a small guy.

Apparition.1576:

Awaiting your rebuttle….

almost 20 minutes later….

The ball is …. how you say…. “in your court”.

We aren’t pitting some great charr fighter against Joe Blow, your average norn farmer. Take a norn and charr, both with equal amount of experience and battle training.

Norn would win every time. It’s liek you are trying to amek out tha charr as the best at everything. No.

Charr = excel with Technology and fighting in large rank and file armies/warbands

Norn = excel in fighting on their own or in small groups, able to take down threats many times their size or what is considered possible.

It’s been already stated by lore that charr warbands would get wiped out by a couple norn. But if charr sent an army in, sure the norn would cut large bloody swaths into their ranks, but their technology and numbers would eventually overcome the norn, not to mention formations like firing lines, shield walls, spear walls etc. that are common to large armies.

That’s what charr are good at, fighting as a legion

Dustfinger.9510:

I’m really sorry if my sentence was misleading, but i’m french and my english isn’t very good( and it’s very hard to keep the exact meaning when I translate ). But I hadn’t misinterpret that dialog, I have say than the Norn says that her ale-fist hit hard ( not necessarily more than normal fist ).But same with that, the study of referential remains consistent. And for the Norn’s strenght , “Not that their strength is limited to lifting power.” -> I’m sorry, but in the lore, the norn ( not with the spirit form , huh ) are only described to be much more stronger about their lift strenght .
(-> I just see it after twice reading , nice kitten placement ^^ )

But If you take a Norn vs a Charr , with a spirit form Norn, the Norn should not be able to lose.
After I do not want to dwell on the debate, my point of view it’s just that in a duel without weapons or armor or magicpower, with similar size, both opponents have a chance and that the fight will be tight.
(Edit : I just forgot to mention that I speak about a member of the blood legion)

Drewan.5681:

Yes, it was stated by official lore , in the actual configuration the Charrs can beat Norns with 1 legion .

arthurobenzi.2619:

Dustfinger.9510:

I’m really sorry if my sentence was misleading, but i’m french and my english isn’t very good( and it’s very hard to keep the exact meaning when I translate ). But I hadn’t misinterpret that dialog, I have say than the Norn says that her ale-fist hit hard ( not necessarily more than normal fist ).But same with that, the study of referential remains consistent. And for the Norn’s strenght , “Not that their strength is limited to lifting power.” -> I’m sorry, but in the lore, the norn ( not with the spirit form , huh ) are only described to be much more stronger about their lift strenght .
(-> I just see it after twice reading , nice kitten placement ^^ )

But If you take a Norn vs a Charr , with a spirit form Norn, the Norn should not be able to lose.
After I do not want to dwell on the debate, my point of view it’s just that in a duel without weapons or armor or magicpower, with similar size, both opponents have a chance and that the fight will be tight.

No need to appologise. That’s understandable

I agree, in a one on one duel, a charr does have a chance. The lore evidence only shows that norn “tend” to win against more charr. But that in no way means a norn will always win no matter what.

As for their strength, I have seen nothing in lore to indicate that their strength is only limited to lifting power. It may indeed be so but nothing has ever indicated it. So going by the principle of occums razor, it is more responsible not to assume their strength is limited to lifting power. but we can atleast agree that the possibility is there that it is limited to lifting power. However, when addressing it we should clarify that it is only a possibile lore theory rather than an actual lore fact.

Dustfinger.9510:

Yes, here we are on the same wavelength, and I just need to add…

Norn and Charr, best duo when it’s time to drink !!!

If it goes to a brawl, it depends on both sides:

In duel it depends on Charr’s Legion, which determines his abilities in combat.
Same goes to a norn. But let’s pick up a norn warrior and a Blood legion soldier:
Norn is training his abilities for his own. He is trained to survive, whatever comes against him.
Blood Legion infantry on the other side is trained as a soldier. To fight properly, which may be easiert to counter, since it’s more predictible…

YET.

If it’d come to a battle now, I’m sure that charrs would win. Their weaponry, their DISCIPLINE AND TRAINING would give them a great advantage against band of norns. They wouldn’t fit in army’s discipline, as charrs do and that mihght cost them a victory.

Think giant berserker viking vs say a roman legionnaire who isn’t a stranger to combat and can hold their own but are more used to fight in rank and file.

We know for a fact 1 to a couple norn easily wiped out warbands of charr but if they sent say many warbands/a large army, the charr would eventually drive them down (after probably sustaining some nice casualties xD)

The perfect analogy would be from a game back on my ps3 (can’t remember what it was called -.-) But there was this huge berserker giant thing. If you faced him with a small number of troops he slaughters all of them and you. But if you have a huge army, sure it takes out dozens of your soldiers single-handedly, but numbers and superior tech end up killing it eventually and they die rather quick.

The norn’s biggest weakness is their individualistic culture. Imagine if the norn banded together to form an actual nation? They would be unstoppable when faced in battle with conventional means (ie. no bombs, cannons etc)

Drewan.5681:

I think you make a mistake, firstly it would be a viking berzerker vs a roman legionnaire (here both have the same size ) ,
secondly the comparaison doesn’t work , because charr have the discipline and the war’s skill of a roman legionnaire ( if more ) AND the aggressivity and bloodthirst of the berzerker vikings . Norn have the viking berzerker strenght , but Norn are calm , they are not savage as berzerker or charr.

the norn will never have a real army, this is why a single legion currently sufficient to destroy them. Because an army would be against all their social and cultural foundations.

Dustfinger.9510:

Apparition.1576:

Kimbo Slice lost a fight to a little shrimp.

Give it up with this superhuman stregnth crap, that has nothing to do with getting whipped in a fight. Skill, agility, experience are all equal factors. Go to the gym and watch all those big guys lifting all those weights, put him in a ring with a trained fighter and watch what happens. Skilled, vicious, and none of that stregnth means anything.

Chars are bred to fight, they have trained since birth, you guys are hilarious. This is a fight we are talking about people.. not a rock lifting contest…

It was given before you even tried. 4th page 11th post down

“And we have already been shown what would tend to happen. So personal anecdotes about getting beat by smaller guys and issues about other advantages being a factor have been addressed. At least by me.”

So by your logic a valid rebuttle only needs me to reference to a big guy beating a small guy.

Apparition.1576:

Awaiting your rebuttle….

almost 20 minutes later….

The ball is …. how you say…. “in your court”.

Nice rebuttle…

Apparition.1576:

Nice rebuttle…

Thank you.

arthurobenzi.2619:

the norn will never have a real army, this is why a single legion currently sufficient to destroy them. Because an army would be against all their social and cultural foundations.

If the Norn formed an army, whatever they targeted would be kittened up beyond belief.

As I said ingame during battle of LA. Man, poor Aetherblades. Imagine (purposefully aiming low) 100 Norn lionguard/order members. ALL driven by rage, anger, and grief for vengeance. The enemy forces will not survive the onslaught.

Also, because it’s fitting and relating (Unsure if it’s mentioned). Two Charr npcs (I believe blood legion) in Black Citadel actually express that they wish they could get MORE NORN ALLIES TO HELP THEM against the Flame Legion/branded/etc. The other goes “At least they are joining the vigil.”

Going by ingame scaling, if Kodan = 10 feet, then a max female Norn is just over 10 feet tall. Male Norn apparently can get a fair bit larger.

Kalavier.1097:

arthurobenzi.2619:

the norn will never have a real army, this is why a single legion currently sufficient to destroy them. Because an army would be against all their social and cultural foundations.

If the Norn formed an army, whatever they targeted would be kittened up beyond belief.

As I said ingame during battle of LA. Man, poor Aetherblades. Imagine (purposefully aiming low) 100 Norn lionguard/order members. ALL driven by rage, anger, and grief for vengeance. The enemy forces will not survive the onslaught.

Also, because it’s fitting and relating (Unsure if it’s mentioned). Two Charr npcs (I believe blood legion) in Black Citadel actually express that they wish they could get MORE NORN ALLIES TO HELP THEM against the Flame Legion/branded/etc. The other goes “At least they are joining the vigil.”

Going by ingame scaling, if Kodan = 10 feet, then a max female Norn is just over 10 feet tall. Male Norn apparently can get a fair bit larger.

I really wonder how this is going to explain why so many norns were absolutely unable to harm Jormag then. As they clearly state, they fought him with many many men, but still lost.

Name.9625:

Kalavier.1097:

arthurobenzi.2619:

the norn will never have a real army, this is why a single legion currently sufficient to destroy them. Because an army would be against all their social and cultural foundations.

If the Norn formed an army, whatever they targeted would be kittened up beyond belief.

As I said ingame during battle of LA. Man, poor Aetherblades. Imagine (purposefully aiming low) 100 Norn lionguard/order members. ALL driven by rage, anger, and grief for vengeance. The enemy forces will not survive the onslaught.

Also, because it’s fitting and relating (Unsure if it’s mentioned). Two Charr npcs (I believe blood legion) in Black Citadel actually express that they wish they could get MORE NORN ALLIES TO HELP THEM against the Flame Legion/branded/etc. The other goes “At least they are joining the vigil.”

Going by ingame scaling, if Kodan = 10 feet, then a max female Norn is just over 10 feet tall. Male Norn apparently can get a fair bit larger.

I really wonder how this is going to explain why so many norns were absolutely unable to harm Jormag then. As they clearly state, they fought him with many many men, but still lost.

There is a different between “Forming an army to fight some other mortal/normal race.” (which is what I meant. IE, Charr, bandits, etc) and “Fighting a kittening elder dragon”. If his tooth is anything like his scales, nothing the Norn have could scratch him.

Kalavier.1097:

No. If a real war was to take place, even if the Norns have an army, they would lose. The Charr are the warmasters (soldier + weapons) they live for her. Norns are not able to face an entire army. Because the Norns are not made for war, they are solitary heroes (and Hunter).
The only nation that was able to deal with Charrs, was humans , but today they are only a shadow of their past greatness.

arthurobenzi.2619:

Kalavier.1097:

No. If a real war was to take place, even if the Norns have an army, they would lose. The Charr are the warmasters (soldier + weapons) they live for her. Norns are not able to face an entire army. Because the norn are not made ??for war, they are solitary hero (and Hunter).
The only nation that was able to deal with Charrs, was humans , but today they are only a shadow of their past greatness.

Not alone. But a large group could. If such a war happened between Charr and Norn, the Charr would be so bloodied afterwards other forces could take them out.

Saying “The only nation” is kinda false seeing as back then, we really have Humans, Dwarves, and charr. Humans held out because of the great wall and the Mursaat, Dwarves simply weren’t touched.

As the searing showed, the humans didn’t withstand them. Kryta’s military and government shattered or fled. Orr’s army was slaughtered and swiftly overrun.

Again, yes they could overrun and defeat the Norn. However, my point was more of “If you got a large to huge number of norn together, all working AGAINST something. That thing will be destroyed.” Norn as they are would fall to an army working to wipe them out. But if they rallied together and pushed back as a mob…

Kalavier.1097:

It is for this reason that there is a mutual respect between the two races. This war would only be a waste of time for the Charrs. In addition, the weakened Legion who came back from war , would be dominated by the 2 others, and the flame legion would like take this opportunity to try a comeback.
As much the Norns align themselves together, they become an extremely powerful military force , as much the Charrs send their three legions , the result would be the same.

I think we tend to take for granted out own RL strengths. Like our RL human ability to organize and mobilize on a large scale for common and specific goal. Norn don’t seem to have this strength. Charr have it. Humans have it to a slightly lesser extent. Asura have it even less. And norn may form a pack if they follow wolfs teaching but beyond that it may not even be a real possibility outside of an ED threat. And that’s only because an ED is a big enough challenge to draw the bulk of norn in. Not because the norn have decided to work in concert.

Full scale war is charr specialty. Norn would be at the same disadvantage that charr are at in a one on one competition. Sure, norn can win battles as they did but in the end, it’s the charr who would come out generally on top. Also, as a-net has confirmed.

Dustfinger.9510:

Apparition.1576:

Kimbo Slice lost a fight to a little shrimp.

Give it up with this superhuman stregnth crap, that has nothing to do with getting whipped in a fight. Skill, agility, experience are all equal factors. Go to the gym and watch all those big guys lifting all those weights, put him in a ring with a trained fighter and watch what happens. Skilled, vicious, and none of that stregnth means anything.

Chars are bred to fight, they have trained since birth, you guys are hilarious. This is a fight we are talking about people.. not a rock lifting contest…

It was given before you even tried. 4th page 11th post down

“And we have already been shown what would tend to happen. So personal anecdotes about getting beat by smaller guys and issues about other advantages being a factor have been addressed. At least by me.”

So by your logic a valid rebuttle only needs me to reference to a big guy beating a small guy.

Apparition.1576:

Awaiting your rebuttle….

almost 20 minutes later….

The ball is …. how you say…. “in your court”.

So just to clarify.. your rebuttle to my entire arguement… this one time.. there was this norn.. i dont know his name or anything but he beat an entire warband with one punch! This proves Norn can beat Charr?

This sounds like the arguement of a child.. why don’t you take at least a few minutes to refine your arguements instead of just posting garbage 99 out of 100 of the posts that you make.

Apparition.1576:

Dustfinger.9510:

Apparition.1576:

Kimbo Slice lost a fight to a little shrimp.

Give it up with this superhuman stregnth crap, that has nothing to do with getting whipped in a fight. Skill, agility, experience are all equal factors. Go to the gym and watch all those big guys lifting all those weights, put him in a ring with a trained fighter and watch what happens. Skilled, vicious, and none of that stregnth means anything.

Chars are bred to fight, they have trained since birth, you guys are hilarious. This is a fight we are talking about people.. not a rock lifting contest…

It was given before you even tried. 4th page 11th post down

“And we have already been shown what would tend to happen. So personal anecdotes about getting beat by smaller guys and issues about other advantages being a factor have been addressed. At least by me.”

So by your logic a valid rebuttle only needs me to reference to a big guy beating a small guy.

Apparition.1576:

Awaiting your rebuttle….

almost 20 minutes later….

The ball is …. how you say…. “in your court”.

So just to clarify.. your rebuttle to my entire arguement… this one time.. there was this norn.. i dont know his name or anything but he beat an entire warband with one punch! This proves Norn can beat Charr?

This sounds like the arguement of a child.. why don’t you take at least a few minutes to refine your arguements instead of just posting garbage 99 out of 100 of the posts that you make.

The entire argument that went “This one time, this big guy got beat by this small guy”? Really? Really??!? lol

Lonewolf Kai.3682:

Where’s the lore that states Norn haven’t gotten weaker since the days of GW1? Where’s the lore that states Charr are weaker than Norn in current GW2 times?

Where’s the lore that states that Rytlock is not an Elder Dragon in disguise undermining DE from the inside?
Where’s the lore that states that Zojja isn’t really a 47 year old chubby man named Ralph?
Where’s the lore that states that Zhaitan doesn’t work half-time as a babysitter from saturday to tuesday to help Kralk and Jormag with the rent of their apartment?

I’m… awaiting your “rebuttle”.

Lonewolf Kai.3682:

Oh boy, here we go again.

Here’s one: Norn aren’t what they used to be just like Charr are different from the past.

Where’s the lore that states Norn haven’t gotten weaker since the days of GW1? Where’s the lore that states Charr are weaker than Norn in current GW2 times?

Going off of a combo of what arthurobenzi and Gieniusz Krab are stating: is it possible that the GW1 Charr were just as powerful as GW1 Norn but were considered weaker because of their savagery?

Where is the lore that says Norn these days are weaker then they were before?

Gameplay doesn’t count. There is nothing in the Movement of the World that’d suggest a total racial decline of strength and other areas in individuals. Infact, you could say there is stuff to imply they’d work at becoming STRONGER, Faster, etc in response to the forced exile.