Guild Wars 2

One thing I’d admit. If we factor in guns or explosives, the balance is clearly shifted.

But if we talk purely just melee combat like EOTN (maybe some magic thrown in)… probably more like the lore examples.

And, as Tarreth said, warbands can be anything from (IIRC) 4 to 12 people.

Kalavier.1097:

One thing I’d admit. If we factor in guns or explosives, the balance is clearly shifted.

But if we talk purely just melee combat like EOTN (maybe some magic thrown in)… probably more like the lore examples.

And, as Tarreth said, warbands can be anything from (IIRC) 4 to 12 people.

And they can be anything from hot-headed rookie recruits to well-coordinated and devastating veterans. Of course, I think it’s possible for a Charr and Norn to find themselves evenly matched in a 1-on-1, yet still evenly matched in a warband-on-one. After all – there’s more glory in defeating a Warband than a single warrior, and the greater challenge drives the Norn to greater heights of ability.

It’s no secret, that physical side of norns is simply outstanding. Their bodies may survive more, than bodies of any other living being of Tyria (except for dwarves), but Charr’s strength lies not in a single soldier. Charr’s strength, it’s fierce power and ferocity is heard in thundering guns and and war machines. The Marching Charr army is making the earth itself tremble.

Discipline, duty, loyality. Victory at all cost.

Tarreth.8914:

It’s no secret, that physical side of norns is simply outstanding. Their bodies may survive more, than bodies of any other living being of Tyria (except for dwarves), but Charr’s strength lies not in a single soldier. Charr’s strength, it’s fierce power and ferocity is heard in thundering guns and and war machines. The Marching Charr army is making the earth itself tremble.

Discipline, duty, loyality. Victory at all cost.

So much this.

Charr are amazing enough in their own right without turning them into furry norn.

But I think Charrs might actually use some steam powered device to augment their prowess in one way or another. Even just a chainsword.

No chainsword or gun is strong enough to take out a Norn in single combat. Norn are pretty good about rising to a challenge before them.

What, if norn is to stand against a gun, that is able to simply burn him? Ghostfire shells, remember. As we know from late Orrian Assault, these babies are able to burn everything within it’s path.
And if a norn would charge a charr, armed with such a weapon, it would be his funeral.

Tarreth.8914:

What, if norn is to stand against a gun, that is able to simply burn him? Ghostfire shells, remember. As we know from late Orrian Assault, these babies are able to burn everything within it’s path.
And if a norn would charge a charr, armed with such a weapon, it would be his funeral.

And if the norn was armed with just his fists while the charr had a tank with it’s gun pointed directly at the norns head, the charr would probably win as well. ………. but why? :P

Dustfinger.9510:

And if the norn was armed with just his fists while the charr had a tank with it’s gun pointed directly at the norns head, the charr would probably win as well. ………. but why? :P

I can imagine the shark-like grin of that asura, towering over both norn and charr in his golem. “Rocketfist, activate.”

corrected typooos, note to self, don’t start thinking under two coffee

Golem? Puhleez. Well producted anti-armor cannon shell, loaded to ’120 caliber cannon. Suck on it, midgets.

Tarreth.8914:

Golem? Puhleez. Well producted anti-armor cannon shell, loaded to ’120 caliber cannon. Suck on it, midgets.

I see your cannon and raise you ingenuitive PPP’s (portable personal portals) totally negating your projectiles (for the small price of 8 copper per use), grabbing the gunner for a tilt-a-whirl backbreaker.

You think, that the Iron Legion wouldn’t be prepared for ambush? Reactive armors or any other simple device, which uses none of this silly magitechnology, seconded by soldier’s training would be enough to at least avoid it. Then, grabbing a pistol or rifle, which Iron Legion ALWAYS has with them and your plan sucked.
Technology is important, but nothing can replace operator.

I know everyone’s kind of left this but I still want my two cents. Granted there is more to a fight than strength, even though this is a major factor, there is also more to it than agility. The postures of both species show that the norn has a greater reach and static range than the charr. The norn also has a greater plane of movement and a better centre of balance, due to being always bipedal. A charr stand hunched, almost like it should always be on all fours, even when it isn’t. This seriously throws off a fighters stability. The Charr possibly has more explosive strength going forward but the norn has greater strength in practically every other direction. Now as to whether a Charr actually swings his sword faster? It’s all relative, a Norns swing may take longer, but with a greater reach and usually a bigger weapon, this swing will be covering far more distance in the time taken, therefore their speed could be very similar. The norn has the advantage of strength, range, flexibility and speed within certain planes. As for ferocity or skill? If this was a fight to the death between two determined fighters, ferocity won’t really play a part. Skill wise, the charr is trained to fight in an army, much the same as the Romans were, if we compare that to say, the Picts in Northern Britain, individually a pict could kill a legionary, but in large scale warfare the Romans would almost always win. This difference basically brought roman expansion to a halt. However, even at this, skill level is still debatable. It’s therefore my opinion that 9 times of out 10, a norn would win 1 on 1.

Kalavier.1097:

redslion.9675:

Kalavier.1097:

redslion.9675:

Considering an asuran warrior deals the same damage as a norn warrior doing the same thing, I think in GW2 individual strength doesn’t matter at highest levels, because the armor you wear is an exoskeleton that greatly enhances your capabilities.

Game mechanics.

I am from Dark Souls school: Game Mechanics = Game World phenomena

A single norn can take out entire warbands, they cannot in game mechanics.

Wow, forgot about this thread. Anyways, wanted to refute this, just for the “hardy har har” effect. My single Charr toon can take out the equalivant of several warbands of Norn in game mechanics. All I gotta do is Whirling Wrath a few times and their out!

Lonewolf Kai.3682:

Kalavier.1097:

redslion.9675:

Kalavier.1097:

redslion.9675:

Considering an asuran warrior deals the same damage as a norn warrior doing the same thing, I think in GW2 individual strength doesn’t matter at highest levels, because the armor you wear is an exoskeleton that greatly enhances your capabilities.

Game mechanics.

I am from Dark Souls school: Game Mechanics = Game World phenomena

A single norn can take out entire warbands, they cannot in game mechanics.

Wow, forgot about this thread. Anyways, wanted to refute this, just for the “hardy har har” effect. My single Charr toon can take out the equalivant of several warbands of Norn in game mechanics. All I gotta do is Whirling Wrath a few times and their out!

Endure Pain, ding – winning.
lol

Tarreth.8914:

It’s no secret, that physical side of norns is simply outstanding. Their bodies may survive more, than bodies of any other living being of Tyria (except for dwarves), but Charr’s strength lies not in a single soldier. Charr’s strength, it’s fierce power and ferocity is heard in thundering guns and and war machines. The Marching Charr army is making the earth itself tremble.

Discipline, duty, loyality. Victory at all cost.

This explains it all. A Norn could win in 1v1. But Charr don’t do 1v1, they fight in huge armies and with large war machines. Norn on the other hand always fight alone because, and I qoute, ‘we are norn’. Which can pretty much be translated to “we’re not playing with a full deck”.

Funny because we see a lot of Charr gladiators/ring fighters/pirates…

And a lot of Norn in the vigil/lionguard/orders…

Looking back, that line really can be viewed more as saying “We can do this with 5 guys, humans need a small army.” Different races mean different things. Why would a norn fighting alone or in a small group = “Not playing with a full deck” when they physically equal an entire Charr warband?

In EOTN, basically five norn did the same thing as the ebon vanguard group dispatched…

Kalavier.1097:

when they physically equal an entire Charr warband?

They don’t . One top norn hero defeated an little ash warband in close fight, attacking them by surprise. Already the balance is false, to have a comparaison, it would be vs a blood warband, or even a top tier charr of Blood legion . The end would be pretty different.

arthurobenzi.2619:

Kalavier.1097:

when they physically equal an entire Charr warband?

They don’t . One top norn hero defeated an little ash warband in close fight, attacking them by surprise. Already the balance is false, to have a comparaison, it would be vs a blood warband, or even a top tier charr of Blood legion . The end would be pretty different.

Where does this idea of “top tier” come from? All warbands from all legions are generally battlehardened soldiers who grew up working together since childhood. And all norn generally aim for heroism. How do we know the Ash warband wasn’t top tier of the Ash Legion? The answers are that we really have no idea how any other warband would have faired but we do know that individual norn strength allows a single norn to atleast compete with warbands.

Also, that lone incident is not the entirety of the evidence. We have Sea of Sorrows where a hardened warband surprises the captains council including an unarmed norn who uses a bench to subdue 3 armed and battle hardened charr.

Kalavier.1097:

Funny because we see a lot of Charr gladiators/ring fighters/pirates…

And a lot of Norn in the vigil/lionguard/orders…

Looking back, that line really can be viewed more as saying “We can do this with 5 guys, humans need a small army.” Different races mean different things. Why would a norn fighting alone or in a small group = “Not playing with a full deck” when they physically equal an entire Charr warband?

In EOTN, basically five norn did the same thing as the ebon vanguard group dispatched…

Because they think every threat can be fought with just a few warriors. And those 5 norn warriors only won because there was a huge army of stone dwarves at their back.

Unless you are some kind of elder god, you need armies to defeat apocalyptic threats like the elder dragons.

But forgive me, I’m really biased against norn culture.

arthurobenzi.2619:

Kalavier.1097:

when they physically equal an entire Charr warband?

They don’t . One top norn hero defeated an little ash warband in close fight, attacking them by surprise. Already the balance is false, to have a comparaison, it would be vs a blood warband, or even a top tier charr of Blood legion . The end would be pretty different.

You must’ve missed GW1 EOTN, where Charr and Norn basically left each other alone because hostile moves by the Charr toward the Norn typically got beaten. IIRC, the early warbands that went into Norn lands and caused trouble got absolutely destroyed.

Honestly, I don’t know the details of the situation you are talking about. I do recall hearing in this thread about a Norn who lifted a Charr with a single hand (adult charr) and flung them across the room.

Dustfinger.9510:

Where does this idea of “top tier” come from? All warbands from all legions are generally battlehardened soldiers who grew up working together since childhood. And all norn generally aim for heroism. How do we know the Ash warband wasn’t top tier of the Ash Legion? The answers are that we really have no idea how any other warband would have faired but we do know that individual norn strength allows a single norn to atleast compete with warbands.

Also, that lone incident is not the entirety of the evidence. We have Sea of Sorrows where a hardened warband surprises the captains council including an unarmed norn who uses a bench to subdue 3 armed and battle hardened charr.

Show Spoiler

hide spoiler

To the side, Captain Heda took om three charr at once. She’s picked up a heavy oak bench, her arms rippling with massive strength beneath the softness of her chubby body. When all three charged her, Hedda set her feet and held the bench crosswise in front of her chest, setting her entire weight against it. Even with all three charr pushing as hard as they could, the buxom norn woman walked forward step by step, shoving them back with each stride. When she reached the edge of the pavilion, Hedda gave a roar and slammed the bench back even farther, pinning all three squirming soldiers against the wall.

Yep, find me a charr warband that doesn’t strive to be the best at their job, and I’ll be amazed. Also thanks for that quote, hadn’t heard that scene before.

A chubby norn basically pinning three charr soldiers against a wall with a bench despite their hardest efforts? And people STILL doubt Norn strength?

Dustfinger.9510:

arthurobenzi.2619:

Kalavier.1097:

when they physically equal an entire Charr warband?

They don’t . One top norn hero defeated an little ash warband in close fight, attacking them by surprise. Already the balance is false, to have a comparaison, it would be vs a blood warband, or even a top tier charr of Blood legion . The end would be pretty different.

Where does this idea of “top tier” come from? All warbands from all legions are generally battlehardened soldiers who grew up working together since childhood. And all norn generally aim for heroism. How do we know the Ash warband wasn’t top tier of the Ash Legion? The answers are that we really have no idea how any other warband would have faired but we do know that individual norn strength allows a single norn to atleast compete with warbands.

Also, that lone incident is not the entirety of the evidence. We have Sea of Sorrows where a hardened warband surprises the captains council including an unarmed norn who uses a bench to subdue 3 armed and battle hardened charr.

What ? I never talk about top tier warband, but top tier charr of blood legion. By this I mean like a centurion or a tribune. But even, a warband who just left the fahrar is far less experienced than a warband of veteran. The important point was the fact it was an ash warband, not a warband of tall/big musculate charr of the blood legion ( And more, an ash charr is not trained like a blood charr for close fight)

Kalavier.1097:

arthurobenzi.2619:

Kalavier.1097:

when they physically equal an entire Charr warband?

They don’t . One top norn hero defeated an little ash warband in close fight, attacking them by surprise. Already the balance is false, to have a comparaison, it would be vs a blood warband, or even a top tier charr of Blood legion . The end would be pretty different.

You must’ve missed GW1 EOTN, where Charr and Norn basically left each other alone because hostile moves by the Charr toward the Norn typically got beaten. IIRC, the early warbands that went into Norn lands and caused trouble got absolutely destroyed.

Honestly, I don’t know the details of the situation you are talking about. I do recall hearing in this thread about a Norn who lifted a Charr with a single hand (adult charr) and flung them across the room.

Dustfinger.9510:

Where does this idea of “top tier” come from? All warbands from all legions are generally battlehardened soldiers who grew up working together since childhood. And all norn generally aim for heroism. How do we know the Ash warband wasn’t top tier of the Ash Legion? The answers are that we really have no idea how any other warband would have faired but we do know that individual norn strength allows a single norn to atleast compete with warbands.

Also, that lone incident is not the entirety of the evidence. We have Sea of Sorrows where a hardened warband surprises the captains council including an unarmed norn who uses a bench to subdue 3 armed and battle hardened charr.

Yep, find me a charr warband that doesn’t strive to be the best at their job, and I’ll be amazed. Also thanks for that quote, hadn’t heard that scene before.

A chubby norn basically pinning three charr soldiers against a wall with a bench despite their hardest efforts? And people STILL doubt Norn strength?

Norn and Charr have a mutual respect, because charr see the norn like big mammouth, with a surnatural strength they are, and norn see the charr like the powerful war machine of hell they are. I don’t want to re-say all I write on this topic but to resume :
1vs1 : norn
War : charr
( I Never talk about top tier warband, but top tier charr, but even, there is warband more experienced than other, and some with a lot of high rank charr)

arthurobenzi.2619:

What ? I never talk about top tier warband, but top tier charr of blood legion. By this I mean like a centurion or a tribune. But even, a warband who just left the fahrar is far less experienced than a warband of veteran. The important point was the fact it was an ash warband, not a warband of tall/big musculate charr of the blood legion ( And more, an ash charr is not trained like a blood charr for close fight)

All Legions utilize all classes. Ash has warrior just like Blood legion does. The only difference is that Blood Has more warriors than Ash does and Ash’s strategy isn’t to send waves of warriors to a front line. Blood is known for their warriors because they have more of them and have proven effective by utilizing a general strategy that depends on their warriors but a Blood Legion warrior isn’t guaranteed to be larger or stronger than an Ash warrior. or even a better one on one fighter. They are however more likely to have more experience fighting multiple opponents since Blood’s strategy is to meet it’s enemies, en mass on the field of battle. Ash’s strategy means an Ash warrior may actually have more experience fighting individuals since Ash is more covert.

edit: I can see what you mean about there probably being more experienced warbands out there with more heroic charr. The odds are in that favour. But we really have no big idea about the history of that Ash warband. it could have been fresh or it could have been veterans. We don’t know. It’s like assuming each member of the warband is a bunch of weaklings in the Ash Legion. Why would we assume that? We might as well assume they are the best of the best. it makes no sense to make either of those assumptions. (Btw, where is this norn ambushing an Ash warband from? Im unfamiliar with it)

This is why all of this evidence in norn favor is really only generalized to say that norn have the clear advantage one on one. It is in no way meant to signify that a norn will always win no matter what. But general advantages indicates general outcomes.

Dustfinger.9510:

arthurobenzi.2619:

What ? I never talk about top tier warband, but top tier charr of blood legion. By this I mean like a centurion or a tribune. But even, a warband who just left the fahrar is far less experienced than a warband of veteran. The important point was the fact it was an ash warband, not a warband of tall/big musculate charr of the blood legion ( And more, an ash charr is not trained like a blood charr for close fight)

All Legions utilize all classes. Ash has warrior just like Blood legion does. The only difference is that Blood Has more warriors than Ash does and Ash’s strategy isn’t to send waves of warriors to a front line. Blood is known for their warriors because they have more of them and have proven effective by utilizing a general strategy that depends on their warriors but a Blood Legion warrior isn’t guaranteed to be larger or stronger than an Ash warrior. or even a better one on one fighter. They are however more likely to have more experience fighting multiple opponents since Blood’s strategy is to meet it’s enemies, en mass on the field of battle. Ash’s strategy means an Ash warrior may actually have more experience fighting individuals since Ash is more covert.

Yes, but what I meant is that a warrior of the blood legion is a frontline warrior who need more strenght than a ash warrior who act more like a commando.

Dustfinger.9510:

edit: I can see what you mean about there probably being more experienced warbands out there with more heroic charr. The odds are in that favour. But we really have no big idea about the history of that Ash warband. it could have been fresh or it could have been veterans. We don’t know. It’s like assuming each member of the warband is a bunch of weaklings in the Ash Legion. Why would we assume that? We might as well assume they are the best of the best. it makes no sense to make either of those assumptions. (Btw, where is this norn ambushing an Ash warband from? Im unfamiliar with it)

This is why all of this evidence in norn favor is really only generalized to say that norn have the clear advantage one on one. It is in no way meant to signify that a norn will always win no matter what. But general advantages indicates general outcomes.

I didn’t remember where I read it, here or in gw2guru, but the norn wasn’t ambushing, he just comes from nowhere and bump/defeat an ash warband.
For the rest I agree.

arthurobenzi.2619:

Yes, but what I meant is that a warrior of the blood legion is a frontline warrior who need more strenght than a ash warrior who act more like a commando.

I can see that. The Blood Legion culture revolves around warriors so they might have more options in training and testing one self than Ash. It seems we’re all agreed that neither one is really in the same league (strength wise) as the norn warriors.

At the time of GW2, a Charr is, lorewise, armed with melee weapons as well as ranged weapons such as rifles, I think. In this case, a shot through the head of a Norn works just as well as a knife to their belly, difference being it’s much easier to shoot him in the head.

Ilien.5302:

At the time of GW2, a Charr is, lorewise, armed with melee weapons as well as ranged weapons such as rifles, I think. In this case, a shot through the head of a Norn works just as well as a knife to their belly, difference being it’s much easier to shoot him in the head.

A shot to the head will kill just about anybody. But that fact doesn’t eliminate a norns inherent advantage.

You have to use a bit of mental fudging with this, because the capabilities of Norn in a lore sense doesn’t match with what you see in-game. Norn are supposed to have superhuman strength. Like, bend steel bars into a pretzel strong, if not stronger. They are also supposed to become even stronger when changing into Bear form. With that kind of advantage, a trained Norn Warrior should be more than a match for any singular opponent they face, unless they were the absolute top pugilists of their kind.

You won’t see any of this in-game, of course, because game balance dictates that an Asura Warrior must have the same offensive capability as a Norn Warrior. But in a lore fashion, that Asura, unless he was using something like a Power Suit, would have no chance of ever matching a Norn in hand-to-hand combat.

Also, if you argue for using a top tier, best of the best blood legion warrior in this matchup of Norn vs Charr…

Then you gotta argue top of the line, best of the best Norn warrior as well.

Kalavier.1097:

Also, if you argue for using a top tier, best of the best blood legion warrior in this matchup of Norn vs Charr…

Then you gotta argue top of the line, best of the best Norn warrior as well.

? the norn was also a “top tier”, this is why I said it can’t balance with a small ash warband . I’m sorry, I don’t know if you misunderstood my past post, or if I misunderstood this post .

Summary: Norn win Charr in 1 vs 1 combat, Charr win Norn in army vs army.

arthurobenzi.2619:

Kalavier.1097:

Also, if you argue for using a top tier, best of the best blood legion warrior in this matchup of Norn vs Charr…

Then you gotta argue top of the line, best of the best Norn warrior as well.

? the norn was also a “top tier”, this is why I said it can’t balance with a small ash warband . I’m sorry, I don’t know if you misunderstood my past post, or if I misunderstood this post .

I’d still love quotes of the Norn vs Ash warband scene. I’ve heard of it but don’t recall it (Haven’t touched the GW books in a long while, since before Sea of Sorrow’s came out), but can never find information on it.

My point was more along the lines of “Okay, sure let’s use top of the line known feats or possible feats for a charr, blood legion warrior. That’s fine. Now let’s do the same for the Norn.”

If a chubby norn (I took that scene as implying the Norn wasn’t the strongest, or wasn’t very physically active. Course, I know nothing about the Norn in question besides that scene.) can take three charr warriors, and almost effortlessly walk them into a wall and pin them their despite all efforts… dare I ask what a solid muscle, very active Norn can do?

She was a ships Captain which was the main requirement (besides money) to be on the Captains council. She was known for feats of strength around LA but that combined with her body type means she may not have gotten much cardio in LA or on her ship. So the bulk of her exercisemay have been limited to heavy lifting wherever the need happened to arise.

Well lore wise of course norn in 1v1 and charr in army vs army. But because I find some of the lore sort of…meh and love these two to death and fun is allowed in this game. My headcannon is this:

Norn while strong, strengths are determined by what spirit guides them. So norn with bear spirit are unnaturally strong.

Wolf Norn make up for strength with endurance and tracking ability, they also work much better in a team.

Snow Leopard Norn are agile and stealthy, no much in the strength departments like bear but more than wolf, but are not able to go on as long as wolf could in a fight. Bear norn having the least.

Raven norn are incredibly intelligent and cunning, outsmarting opponents, they lack the most in strength.

Charr as a feline, cow, bestial race I definitely found it hard to believe that basically a race of giant humans that shift vs a race of giant cat people that train for battle that they wouldn’t be able to fight one on one in a fist fight equally, just a full on brawl. Though I understand lore base doesn’t mean I have to agree with it. So for me, the norn and charr are on equal footing, they are both extremely strong, great hunters and warriors. The norn can most likely organize a hunting party as well as a charr can organize warbands to prepare for battle. However these two races get along fairly well for their similar views and have a great time hanging out together.

Lore base though norn will typically win over the charr most of the time, but for fun and balancing out my two favorite races I say they are equal and it depends.

+1 @ Knichtus…someone who actually gets it.

IMO there is obviously not an obvious answer to this question. Advantages and disadvantages although they can determine probability still lacks statistics needed to prove anything.

I have stated a major flaw early in this thread that according to this “lore” there are very little scenario’s in this “lore.” One fight cannot be used to determine the facts as their are exceptions to most rule of thumbs.

Aside from my arguement. I would also like to acknowledge that it never occured to me which Spirit the Norn was more aligned with. That is a fine example of both a variable and perspective that should be used when talking about these things. Very well written response. I commend you for it.

Apparition.1576:

+1 @ Knichtus…someone who actually gets it.

IMO there is obviously not an obvious answer to this question. Advantages and disadvantages although they can determine probability still lacks statistics needed to prove anything.

I have stated a major flaw early in this thread that according to this “lore” there are very little scenario’s in this “lore.” One fight cannot be used to determine the facts as their are exceptions to most rule of thumbs.

Aside from my arguement. I would also like to acknowledge that it never occured to me which Spirit the Norn was more aligned with. That is a fine example of both a variable and perspective that should be used when talking about these things. Very well written response. I commend you for it.

Thanks! Yeah that is an issue, their aren’t a ton of scenario’s where that is always the case when it comes to one norn annihilating an entire warband.

Going back to gw1 where the bear shift and power was taken into consideration, your human main character when fighting again a norn that has shifted into the bear form, well their was typically no hope of winning unless (at least for me because I was an assassin-ranger) you outrun the opponent, wait for the form to vanish and then wail on your enemy, interrupting the hard hitting attacks.

With that being said without the power of the shift, in a one on one fight the norn could lose to a human that was skilled, while you the player would lose to a norn unprepared and taking the hard hits. This is where I would think agility and skill would come into play vs great strength.

The shift and association with the spirits effects the norn’s strength by a large margin I believe, larger than what we consider. Yes they are stronger than humans but since they can call upon the spirits in battle I think its more than just the shift, its their abilities as well. The norn become more powerful the greater the threat is, I think its the spirits passively giving them the ability to overcome the obstacle.

They are giants, but the jotun who are another giant race really could by themselves take out a party of 5 and a small group of them was trouble. Compared to the norn in gw1 which a party of 5 could be trouble I would believe especially without access to their shift.

Now i know game mechanics doesn’t = lore. But I think gw1 did a better job showing off the norn as a race than gw2 does. They seem to be not as great as before but still powerful, and tbh to this day I am wondering how humans survived the charr in gw1, if it was mainly just them being disorganized I think the humans were actually really lucky in gw1 to conquer so many races territory.

Without the magic of their shift or association with the spirits, since the charr have no gods. I really believe they would be on equal footing, the charr are just as big as norn, and have what it seems like just as much muscle. The norn have the advantage of height when the charr are hunched over, but the charr can easily get onto all four and take the norn down from below, I don’t think anyone could easily recover from a well delivered punch with the person’s full body weight uppercutting you from below. The norn vice versa could probably KO a charr delivering a strong blow from above.

When the norn shift, well I believe their would be gifts, but also sacrifices. Bear norn, considering they are grizzlies most of the time, have a strength boost, but would be slower, and get tired a bit quick. Snow leopard norn would definitely get an agility boost, and in the woods they be a deadly opponent, but the charr’s hearing would probably help them on the stealth front considering they are also feline like. The snow leopard norn, probably wouldn’t get much of a strength boost, if at all.

Their also the body types of the norn, same with charr, that would definitely effect the shift. A bulky body type may be more suited for a norn associated with bear spirit, but what if it were associated with raven? Would the strength be decreased in return for the norn to have an increase in intelligence?

With animals their is always and sacrifice for what they specialize in. The same with people as well. But this is still my headcannon and just sort of speculating the norn lore.

Def a Norn. Norn will knock out the little kitty kat.

Charr: Took back homeland from stupid humans and their ghosts.
Norn: Got driven off by a dragon whose name they can’t even pronounce properly.

Winner: CHARR. }]:3

Rauderi.8706:

Charr: Took back homeland from stupid humans and their ghosts.
Norn: Got driven off by a dragon whose name they can’t even pronounce properly.

Winner: CHARR. }]:3

Charr: Took back homeland from the stupid humans. Can’t use entire chunks of it because of the ghosts. Also lost an entire part because of the dragon.
Norn: Survived fighting an elder dragon and moved south.

:P

DrDivine.5378:

The Charr are more savage, but the Norn’s raw power is something that allows them to live these solitary lives. Similar to a grizzly bear, an animal that fights with packs of wolves all the time, they are balanced by sheer strength.

Tigers kill brown bears (often bigger than grizzly bears) all the time. Tigers are somewhat smaller, but much faster and stronger. They also kill crocodiles, bison, even elephants.

Cats are basically designed for taking down large prey. They leap from ambush (tigers can leap up to 30 feet), grab onto their prey with their claws, and crush the victims windpipe. Sometimes they’ll just bite through the neck and crush the vertebrae.

Lorewise Norn are stronger, because: magic.

But in reality, without magic, a big cat would easily beat a big humanoid. A tiger is easily strong enough to crush a skull or snap a neck with a single blow.

I was actually just wondering about that the other day. The Bear rank finisher is higher than the Tiger, but would a bear actually win in a fight against a tiger?

Of course, we also need to take into consideration that bears (except polar bears) are not obligate carnivores. They actually gain most of their nutrition from plants, but will happily devour meat if the opportunity presents itself. (Indeed, autumn is when bears will seek out meat since meat is a far better way of building up fat reserves than plant foods.) As a general rule though, bears do not actively hunt for animal prey.

Tigers, on the other hand, are obligate carnivores, and furthermore they are ambush hunters. They attack from stealth and usually kill their prey in a single overwhelming strike with a neck bite. If the prey survives the initial attack, it has been known to get away if the tiger can’t keep a hold of it.

Wanderer.3248:

DrDivine.5378:

The Charr are more savage, but the Norn’s raw power is something that allows them to live these solitary lives. Similar to a grizzly bear, an animal that fights with packs of wolves all the time, they are balanced by sheer strength.

Tigers kill brown bears (often bigger than grizzly bears) all the time. Tigers are somewhat smaller, but much faster and stronger. They also kill crocodiles, bison, even elephants.

Cats are basically designed for taking down large prey. They leap from ambush (tigers can leap up to 30 feet), grab onto their prey with their claws, and crush the victims windpipe. Sometimes they’ll just bite through the neck and crush the vertebrae.

Lorewise Norn are stronger, because: magic.

But in reality, without magic, a big cat would easily beat a big humanoid. A tiger is easily strong enough to crush a skull or snap a neck with a single blow.

Tigers kill baby and sick elephants but it is extremely uncommon for them to attack adult elephants or rhinos because it is a huge gamble. One or both will end up mortally injured.

“…Tigers generally avoid full-grown male Brown bears (which
usually weigh more than 200 kg in this region), but will frequently
predate on cubs and smaller females…”

Source:The Illustrated Encyclopedia Of North American Mammals

Tigers rarely kill male brown bears. In such cases the tiger usually takes the bear by surprise during hibernation.
Tigers will usually avoid bears. A bear may try to steal a tiger’s kill. The bear uses its paws to rain blows to the head and shoulders. ///// The Amur tiger shares the forest with a powerful neighbor: the brown bear. A close relative of the Alaskan grizzly, the brown bear lacks the ferocity of its cousin, but can grow larger, with big males regularly reaching 1500 lb.
http://www.lairweb.org.nz/tiger/conflict9.html

Pretty sure it’s been stated in lore that a single Norn can take on a whole Warband of Charr

Grok Krog.9581:

Pretty sure it’s been stated in lore that a single Norn can take on a whole Warband of Charr

Nope, nowhere.

Grok Krog.9581:

Pretty sure it’s been stated in lore that a single Norn can take on a whole Warband of Charr

Only if those Charr are NPC™ brand tissue paper.
Or if the Norn is fake-Eir with her cheating arrows. Then it still requires fake-Zojja and the other fake-Destiny’s Edge. =P

The Movement of the World says that when the charr invaded, that “warbands and smaller raiding parties could not overcome the individual strength of the Norn”.

Some have interpreted this to mean that the charr couldn’t beat the combined norn force but I see no need for the term “individual strength” if that is the case. And individual norn taking on warbands and small raiding parties seems to be more believable when we see an unarmed chubby norn female take on and subdue three armed charr during a charr ambush, in Sea of Sorrows.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Movement_of_the_World#Charr

It’s not because it happened a very few times and with special conditions, than it is lore-stated , common or prove.
And Captain Heda used a “heavy oak bench” to repulse them. If you read it again she didn’t beated them , because this wasn’t a fight, but a ratio of strenght to strenght ( and more than this we didn’t know who were these charr).
Further, this is like that in all the examples of norn vs warband, the norn throws them, repulses them or what you want, but they actually didn’t beat them.

arthurobenzi.2619:

It’s not because it happened a very few times and with special conditions, than it is lore-stated , common or prove.
And Captain Heda used a “heavy oak bench” to repulse them. If you read it again she didn’t beated them , because this wasn’t a fight, but a ratio of strenght to strenght ( and more than this we didn’t know who were these charr).
Further, this is like that in all the examples of norn vs warband, the norn throws them, repulses them or what you want, but they actually didn’t beat them.

Captain Heda picked up the closest thing she had which happened to be a bench. And she definitlt beat them since we know that these charr were battle hardened (like all charr), experience fighters who ambushed the council. Tell me how this is not beating them, the charr were armed, out to kill and she pinned all three armed charr against the wall rendering them helpless with a bench. that sounds pretty decisive to me. And it defintily sounds like a fight.

edit: also, the events of the MotW aren’t too special since that was the general outcome of the attacks. It is lore stated and it is proven to have happened. Nothing about either of those accounts indicates that it was special or an exception.

Dustfinger.9510:

arthurobenzi.2619:

It’s not because it happened a very few times and with special conditions, than it is lore-stated , common or prove.
And Captain Heda used a “heavy oak bench” to repulse them. If you read it again she didn’t beated them , because this wasn’t a fight, but a ratio of strenght to strenght ( and more than this we didn’t know who were these charr).
Further, this is like that in all the examples of norn vs warband, the norn throws them, repulses them or what you want, but they actually didn’t beat them.

Captain Heda picked up the closest thing she had which happened to be a bench. And she definitlt beat them since we know that these charr were battle hardened (like all charr), experience fighters who ambushed the council. Tell me how this is not beating them, the charr were armed, out to kill and she pinned all three armed charr against the wall rendering them helpless with a bench. that sounds pretty decisive to me. And it defintily sounds like a fight.

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“To the side, Captain Heda took om three charr at once. She’s picked up a heavy oak bench, her arms rippling with massive strength beneath the softness of her chubby body. When all three charged her, Hedda set her feet and held the bench crosswise in front of her chest, setting her entire weight against it. Even with all three charr pushing as hard as they could, the buxom norn woman walked forwar step by step, shoving them back with each stride. When she reached the edge of the pavilion, Hedda gave a roar and slammed the bench back even farther, pinning all three squirming soldiers against the wall.”

edit: also, the events of the MotW aren’t too special since that was the general outcome of the attacks. It is lore stated and it is proven to have happened. Nothing about either of those accounts indicates that it was special or an exception.

" three charr pushing" , she actually prove she was stronger but it wasn’t really a fight, just a “who can push the harder”.
For MotW ,
“warbands and smaller raiding parties could not overcome the individual strength of the Norn”
it’s sound more like if the organisation of the warband is not sufficient to overcome the strenght of the norn whith their disorganized army/society. The sentence is too ambiguous to make only one transcription. With this, we go back to my previous conclusion, because this thread is not about who is stronger ( the norn) but “Who would win in a fight a Charr or Norn”. This would be a tough battle,for example :

In the Ghosts of Ascalon there is Gullik Oddsson, who is getting beaten up by a female Charr Ember Doomforge quite badly.

The problem with this topic is that there is no lore-stated about. All is about theorycrafting and puzzle.

arthurobenzi.2619:

" three charr pushing" , she actually prove she was stronger but it wasn’t really a fight, just a “who can push the harder”.

they were trying to kill her and she subdued all three with nothing but a bench and raw strength. It wasn’t just a pushing contest because they were trying to kill her. The same way they were trying to kill the rest of the council. If anyone else from any other race had done it, it would have been considered evidence of their fighting prowess.

For MotW ,
“warbands and smaller raiding parties could not overcome the individual strength of the Norn”
it’s sound more like if the organisation of the warband is not sufficient to overcome the strenght of the norn whith their disorganized army/society. The sentence is too ambiguous to make only one transcription. With this, we go back to my previous conclusion, because this thread is not about who is stronger ( the norn) but “Who would win in a fight a Charr or Norn”. This would be a tough battle,for example :

In the Ghosts of Ascalon there is Gullik Oddsson, who is getting beaten up by a female Charr Ember Doomforge quite badly.

The problem with this topic is that there is no lore-stated about. All is about theorycrafting and puzzle.

Lone norn are against compared against warbands later on. “Occasionally, a warband (or a Norn hunter) might cross the line into the other’s land, only to be cut down without prejudice”

Norn aren’t organized. So any warband that would get cut down would be by whatever wandering norn happens upon them.

We have quite a bit of lore confirmed. Norn are known for solo fighting. They train since childhood for heroics and they have super strength. they are a race of super heroes. Charr train since childhood to work in groups. They don’t have the strength of the norn and we know of no inherent advantage that they have over the norn. Not even teeth and claws.

We have the same type of lore concerning solo humans against solo charr but for obvious reasons, there is no question about which would tend to win. Even though we have incidents of humans winning.