Guild Wars 2

As I recall, in lore the Norn could turn into bear form (and others) whenever, and there wasn’t a ‘limit’ for how long they could stay in it (But almost all Norn left it after a short while anyway).

edit: Really, this fight can go many ways 1 vs 1.

But, if we are talking “Generic Norn takes on Generic Charr”, we are going to lean toward the Norn winning. Obviously some specific charr might be better then a specific norn, like how a rare handful of humans were capable of beating Norn (And the Norn liked to call at least the dervish from the tourny “A Norn in the wrong body”).

In the Ghosts of Ascalon there is Gullik Oddsson, who is getting beaten up by a female Charr Ember Doomforge quite badly. Yes he might be drunk at this point, but even with an axe as a weapon, Ember is said to gut him and Gullik is just saved because of the sylvari Killeen intervening.
So i guess that a 1v1 between a Charr and a Norn is always dependant of the situation. And we can´t really predict an outcome

Name.9625:

In the Ghosts of Ascalon there is Gullik Oddsson, who is getting beaten up by a female Charr Ember Doomforge quite badly. Yes he might be drunk at this point, but even with an axe as a weapon, Ember is said to gut him and Gullik is just saved because of the sylvari Killeen intervening.
So i guess that a 1v1 between a Charr and a Norn is always dependant of the situation. And we can´t really predict an outcome

Ember Doomforge also being a very skilled Charr who is also the daughter of the Ash legion tribune, IIRC.

But yes, we really can’t come to a conclusion besides “Generic Norn vs Generic Charr, Norn most likely wins.” Otherwise you have tons of variables and stuff which affects it.

Kalavier.1097:

Name.9625:

In the Ghosts of Ascalon there is Gullik Oddsson, who is getting beaten up by a female Charr Ember Doomforge quite badly. Yes he might be drunk at this point, but even with an axe as a weapon, Ember is said to gut him and Gullik is just saved because of the sylvari Killeen intervening.
So i guess that a 1v1 between a Charr and a Norn is always dependant of the situation. And we can´t really predict an outcome

Ember Doomforge also being a very skilled Charr who is also the daughter of the Ash legion tribune, IIRC.

But yes, we really can’t come to a conclusion besides “Generic Norn vs Generic Charr, Norn most likely wins.” Otherwise you have tons of variables and stuff which affects it.

Love the dismissal there. /eyeroll.

Lore says Norn can defeat entire warbands.

So I don’t see how saying “This specific Charr beat this specific norn” refutes that.

My point still stands, in general Norn vs Charr, Norn wins.

Kalavier.1097:

Lore says Norn can defeat entire warbands.

So I don’t see how saying “This specific Charr beat this specific norn” refutes that.

My point still stands, in general Norn vs Charr, Norn wins.

It says that your point isn’t always true.

Lonewolf Kai.3682:

It says that your point isn’t always true.

Any general rule already allows for the possibility. pointing out an incident where a 10 year old severly hurts an adult doesn’t disqualify the general rule that an adult will tend to be able to beat a10 year old.

Full war : Charr win
1vs1 : could be close fight but Norn will tend to win .

Dustfinger.9510:

Lonewolf Kai.3682:

It says that your point isn’t always true.

Any general rule already allows for the possibility. pointing out an incident where a 10 year old severly hurts an adult doesn’t disqualify the general rule that an adult will tend to be able to beat a10 year old.

Exactly my point, thank you Dustfinger.

“In general” never means “Always true”.

A silly thought about the shape changing … does it say anywhere in the lore if they can fly while transformed into ravens?

Kalavier.1097:

Dustfinger.9510:

Lonewolf Kai.3682:

It says that your point isn’t always true.

Any general rule already allows for the possibility. pointing out an incident where a 10 year old severly hurts an adult doesn’t disqualify the general rule that an adult will tend to be able to beat a10 year old.

Exactly my point, thank you Dustfinger.

“In general” never means “Always true”.

Well at least your willing to admit that.

Let me also take this debate a couple posts back where someone was talking about how strength doesn’t win martial arts/street fighting fights, and a couple posters, including you Dustfinger, were saying it does and that it makes the only difference in a fight (at least that’s what I got from the post). I am a martial artist and I can tell you that strength is definately not the winning factor in a fight.

The 2 most important attributes you can have in a fight are agility and knowledge. Agility far outweights strength in the fact that not only will you land more blows but also avoid them than an opponent who is less agile. Knowledge comes in several flavors, but off the top of my head, knowing combat and countercombat strategies, and knowing your opponent.

Those 2 factors alone win the fight. You could have half the strength of your opponent and and still easily win the fight armed with these 2 alone. I’ve seen hulking, muscle bound guys get taken down by chubby or even skinny guys simply because the muscle bound guy couldn’t land a hit on them.

Off the track, yet still on topic, game mechanic wise, I think Norn combat movements feel clumsy compared to Charr. Now, I’ve only played a Norn ranger, so I can only comment from that perspective. I ended up deleting him because of it. I always felt like an oaf that might accidently stab myself. Maybe it was the disportionate body features or the droopy man-boobs. /shrug.

It’s a bit like poker. If you can sense the intent of your opponent already by his breathing or the look in his eyes you will be able to react faster. Instinct and muscle memory do the rest.

For the sake of argument here I wasn’t going to dwell too deeply on it, since we have to assume similar skilled opponents, my argument here alone was that the lore based knowledge of Norn being very strong is not the only factor and that I will assume that a partly feline race also comes with feline qualities – such as speed and agility.

In that sense I don’t recall a statement of how Norn transform and furthermore what qualities they keep in the transformed state. Is a Norn in wolf or leopard shape still as strong? His physique has changed…

Rouven.7409:

The benefit of strength is undeniable, as is the benefit of speed. Strength does very little to you if the fight is over in ten seconds.

If my memory serves me correct there is no description on how the changing of shapes works for norn. They could be very vulnerable for attack at that point.

I don’t agree that martial arts “rely” on strength, but it is certainly a byproduct of training and core strength in particular is very important. The modern military certainly has very different demands of “strength” than in our example. Even a race car driver has to be fit, but not for the same purpose.

Well, I’m sticking to my verdict of potential outcomes as above, speed and agility wins over size and strength in certain scenarios and loses in others in addition to willpower becoming an ever more deciding factor in longer fights.

On the other hand … of course if the norn just stomps the outgoing shockwave kills everyone … maybe the charr can avoid that by jumping really high and landing directly on his head … I need more data.

Good points..

Also to back that statement with an actual fight. Not exactly comparable, considering Charr are a little more dangerous but the point is that…

bigger is bigger…
faster is faster…

but skill is SKILL…

Skill and technique cannot be overlooked when it comes to the art of fighting.

(Edit tried to eliminate all that white space to no avail)

Lonewolf Kai.3682:

Kalavier.1097:

Dustfinger.9510:

Lonewolf Kai.3682:

It says that your point isn’t always true.

Any general rule already allows for the possibility. pointing out an incident where a 10 year old severly hurts an adult doesn’t disqualify the general rule that an adult will tend to be able to beat a10 year old.

Exactly my point, thank you Dustfinger.

“In general” never means “Always true”.

Well at least your willing to admit that.

Let me also take this debate a couple posts back where someone was talking about how strength doesn’t win martial arts/street fighting fights, and a couple posters, including you Dustfinger, were saying it does and that it makes the only difference in a fight (at least that’s what I got from the post). I am a martial artist and I can tell you that strength is definately not the winning factor in a fight.

The 2 most important attributes you can have in a fight are agility and knowledge. Agility far outweights strength in the fact that not only will you land more blows but also avoid them than an opponent who is less agile. Knowledge comes in several flavors, but off the top of my head, knowing combat and countercombat strategies, and knowing your opponent.

Those 2 factors alone win the fight. You could have half the strength of your opponent and and still easily win the fight armed with these 2 alone. I’ve seen hulking, muscle bound guys get taken down by chubby or even skinny guys simply because the muscle bound guy couldn’t land a hit on them.

Off the track, yet still on topic, game mechanic wise, I think Norn combat movements feel clumsy compared to Charr. Now, I’ve only played a Norn ranger, so I can only comment from that perspective. I ended up deleting him because of it. I always felt like an oaf that might accidently stab myself. Maybe it was the disportionate body features or the droopy man-boobs. /shrug.

Great minds think alike..

Lonewolf Kai.3682:

Let me also take this debate a couple posts back where someone was talking about how strength doesn’t win martial arts/street fighting fights, and a couple posters, including you Dustfinger, were saying it does and that it makes the only difference in a fight (at least that’s what I got from the post). I am a martial artist and I can tell you that strength is definately not the winning factor in a fight.

The 2 most important attributes you can have in a fight are agility and knowledge. Agility far outweights strength in the fact that not only will you land more blows but also avoid them than an opponent who is less agile. Knowledge comes in several flavors, but off the top of my head, knowing combat and countercombat strategies, and knowing your opponent.

Those 2 factors alone win the fight. You could have half the strength of your opponent and and still easily win the fight armed with these 2 alone. I’ve seen hulking, muscle bound guys get taken down by chubby or even skinny guys simply because the muscle bound guy couldn’t land a hit on them.

Off the track, yet still on topic, game mechanic wise, I think Norn combat movements feel clumsy compared to Charr. Now, I’ve only played a Norn ranger, so I can only comment from that perspective. I ended up deleting him because of it. I always felt like an oaf that might accidently stab myself. Maybe it was the disportionate body features or the droopy man-boobs. /shrug.

Allow me to clear something up for you. As a hand to hand combat instructor in the Marine corps, I would never say that strength alone is the deciding factor in a fight. I’m not sure how you could have gotten that from anything I posted.

What I did say is that the strength advantage is undeniable. The problem with relying on agility to outweigh a strength advantage is that the agility disparity needs to be so great that the stronger opponent should barely be able to touch the one that tholds the agility advantage. But we have no evidence in lore that charr have this kind of large generalized agility advantage. So even if they have some kind of agility advantage, lore history has shown that it simply wasn’t enough to compete with a less organized, stronger opponent. That means that any agility advanatage the charr may have isn’t big enough to make a great difference. Is strength the only factor in a fight? Not at all. But all factors included, we have been shown who would generally win and the huge strength disparity that norn hold was no doubt a factor. Especially considering the large disadvantages that norn inherently share. Namely their disorganization.

Apparition.1576:

Good points..

Also to back that statement with an actual fight. Not exactly comparable, considering Charr are a little more dangerous but the point is that…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJWjo3dGcyA

bigger is bigger…
faster is faster…

but skill is SKILL…

Skill and technique cannot be overlooked when it comes to the art of fighting.

(Edit tried to eliminate all that white space to no avail)

Charr hone their skills to fight in warbands. Norn hone their skills to fight one on one. Which way would the skill factor swing in a one on one combat?

As I recall, most fighters who value agility/speed over purely strength also tend to go down very quickly to pure strength fighters IF the strength fighter hits them. Least in storys/movies :P

Charr seem the type with balanced agility and strength, Norn though can be a bit more varied (but major strength typically is always there in comparison to humans.)

Dustfinger.9510:

Lonewolf Kai.3682:

Let me also take this debate a couple posts back where someone was talking about how strength doesn’t win martial arts/street fighting fights, and a couple posters, including you Dustfinger, were saying it does and that it makes the only difference in a fight (at least that’s what I got from the post). I am a martial artist and I can tell you that strength is definately not the winning factor in a fight.

The 2 most important attributes you can have in a fight are agility and knowledge. Agility far outweights strength in the fact that not only will you land more blows but also avoid them than an opponent who is less agile. Knowledge comes in several flavors, but off the top of my head, knowing combat and countercombat strategies, and knowing your opponent.

Those 2 factors alone win the fight. You could have half the strength of your opponent and and still easily win the fight armed with these 2 alone. I’ve seen hulking, muscle bound guys get taken down by chubby or even skinny guys simply because the muscle bound guy couldn’t land a hit on them.

Off the track, yet still on topic, game mechanic wise, I think Norn combat movements feel clumsy compared to Charr. Now, I’ve only played a Norn ranger, so I can only comment from that perspective. I ended up deleting him because of it. I always felt like an oaf that might accidently stab myself. Maybe it was the disportionate body features or the droopy man-boobs. /shrug.

Allow me to clear something up for you. As a hand to hand combat instructor in the Marine corps, I would never say that strength alone is the deciding factor in a fight. I’m not sure how you could have gotten that from anything I posted.

What I did say is that the strength advantage is undeniable. The problem with relying on agility to outweigh a strength advantage is that the agility disparity needs to be so great that the stronger opponent should barely be able to touch the one that tholds the agility advantage. But we have no evidence in lore that charr have this kind of large generalized agility advantage. So even if they have some kind of agility advantage, lore history has shown that it simply wasn’t enough to compete with a less organized, stronger opponent. That means that any agility advanatage the charr may have isn’t big enough to make a great difference. Is strength the only factor in a fight? Not at all. But all factors included, we have been shown who would generally win and the huge strength disparity that norn hold was no doubt a factor. Especially considering the large disadvantages that norn inherently share. Namely their disorganization.

Dustfinger.9510:

1 on 1, it would tend to be Norn. Despite a cultural shift to more sedentary proffessions, they are still a species of giant warriors with supernatural strength. And melee weapons are still viable in todays Tyria.

Dustfinger.9510:

Drakkon.4782:

Charr are larger than Norn. They’re stronger than Norn. They’re born and bred for battle. Norn are born to hunt. There’s a difference. I’ll take a Charr every time. When my back’s to the wall, I’ll take a Charr at my side over a Norn. The only creature I’d take over a Charr would be a Kodan. But of the playable races, Charr. Every time. I don’t know where people are getting that Norn are bigger and stronger than Charr. The lore clearly contradicts that. Charr are the fiercest creatures playable.

So much is wrong here. Norn are bigger than charr. Norn are many times stronger than charr. Norn aren’t just big humans. They are fairy tale giants. Norn have been scaled down a couple times for game mechanics but Norn are larger and stronger by far. Charr are bred for organized battle. Norn are bred for individual battle. Lorewise, a charr got picked up by the scruff of her neck and tossed across the room one handed by a norn. There’s no comparing the strength of a norn and a charr. And lorewise, one norn can take out a warband of charr.

It’s a puma fighting a gorilla. Puma has teeth and claws but they can’t compete with the raw strength of the gorilla.

I could reference more of your post regarding strength as deciding factor if you like.. but I would not want to be banned by moderators for something so trivial…

But that is beside the point, my posts have all been pretty consistent. As a martial arts instructor you should already know what has been pointed out. There are other factors in skilled combat much more than strength alone, that play more of a role in a deciding factor.

I’m pretty sure my post have been pretty consistent but you seem to be going back and fourth a bit.

Apparition.1576:

I could reference more of your post regarding strength as deciding factor if you like.. but I would not want to be banned by moderators for something so trivial…

But that is beside the point, my posts have all been pretty consistent. As a martial arts instructor you should already know what has been pointed out. There are other factors in skilled combat much more than strength alone, that play more of a role in a deciding factor.

I’m pretty sure my post have been pretty consistent but you seem to be going back and fourth a bit.

I see the problem. You seem to be confusing my statements of how super natural strength is a real factor in a one on one fight between charr and norn with the flawed idea that strength alone is the deciding factor in any fight. those are two very different ideas.

In fact, that very post of mine that you just quoted also mentioned the skills that charr and norn train for. Organized vs individual combat. You may have missed it but it is there. beginning on the third line down.

Mhh … one thing I would throw in in regards to the training … what is the motivation?

Norn in one on one I’d wager want to show their prowess and skill. Something to boast about afterwards. Whereas I would bet that a Charr could not care if it looks good as long as it is effective.

Situational awareness … now would that be trained more in a group (fight) or neglected?

Next point of interest for me would be – endurance of pain. Surely it is benefitial if you can ignore pain during a fight. I am torn here as I can imagine Norn sort of feeding off of pain – wearing it as a badge – on the other hand I can see Charr simply ignoring it.

Who would keep a cooler head in a fight?

That’s a good point.

On one hand charr rely on their wb to watch their back but that is so they can focus on their own job at hand. So with a single opponent, the charr needs only focus on that one adversary. Possibly being able to also focus on the surrounding environment to use to it’s advantage the same way they would also be watching their wb members back.

Where as a norn would just be used to focusing on their singular foe. they may get caught unawares by the environment but they would also be more used to improvising a way out an unexpected situation since they are so used to only having themselves to rely on.

Of course, a norn may also learn to improvise with it’s environment in order to beat larger or more powerful foes while a good charr would learn how to adapt an overcome unexpected situations. As the saying goes, “every plan is full proof until the first bullet is fired”.

In that case, I’d say that factor would really just depend on the individuals. How good are the individual charr and norn at using their environment and improvising their way out of unexpected situations.

Dustfinger.9510:

I’m not sure how you could have gotten that from anything I posted.

Like I said, that’s what I “got” from you contribution in this particular part of the debate, and you seem quite concentrated on it, even with the reply to me. Whether or not you stated it directly matters not. The main idea in your point is that Norn super-strength wins the fight.

Dustfinger.9510:

But all factors included, we have been shown who would generally win and the huge strength disparity that norn hold was no doubt a factor. Especially considering the large disadvantages that norn inherently share. Namely their disorganization.

Current lore history also points that in general, a Norn is quite often drunk, even to the point of being passed out. And since we have lore history that states what happens to a Norn that’s drunk vs a Charr, we can say that now, in general a Norn vs a Charr will lose…… generally speaking.

Kalavier.1097:

As I recall, most fighters who value agility/speed over purely strength also tend to go down very quickly to pure strength fighters IF the strength fighter hits them. Least in storys/movies :P

You sort of just invalidated your argument there. Real life does not = stories/movies. Neither does half-giant, superhuman, shapeshifters or giant walking kitty-men.

Lonewolf Kai.3682:

Like I said, that’s what I “got” from you contribution in this particular part of the debate, and you seem quite concentrated on it, even with the reply to me. Whether or not you stated it directly matters not. The main idea in your point is that Norn super-strength wins the fight.

What you “got” directly contradicts what I have said. I concentrate on it because posters try to minimize strength as any sort of advantage when it is actually quite a large advantage. And as I have said, pointing out how super natural strength is a very real factor is very different than even implying that strength is the sole deciding factor of a fight.

“So even minimizing the importance of strength, if their individual ability (all told, strength included) is enough to beat a larger organized force of charr, it doesn’t make sense that a lone charr would tend to fair better against a norn who have already tended to be capable of doing so much damage to multiple charr. So the topic of this thread has really already been addressed by a-net and the answer confirmed.” (page 2)

Dustfinger.9510:

Current lore history also points that in general, a Norn is quite often drunk, even to the point of being passed out. And since we have lore history that states what happens to a Norn that’s drunk vs a Charr, we can say that now, in general a Norn vs a Charr will lose…… generally speaking.

Charr are also often drunk. But neither are always drunk. And if norn drinking is a general problem, then it would have been a problem when the norn and charr did fight. if we assume that the norn were definitely drunk and since the norn won then we have to come to the conclusion that alchohol almost never affects the norn fighting ability. Or…. we could just ignore the whole drunk nonsense and dismiss it for what it is.

I have provided plenty of counter examples in regards to how important strength is in a one on one fight. I see no rebutes, only contradiction.

Kimbo vs Matt Mitrione UFC 113
ken shamrock vs royce gracie UFC 1
Muhammad Ali vs George Foreman
sugar ray leonard vs roberto duran

In all these fights, the evidence of stregnth was clear. But had absolutely zero factor in the fights. I find it hard to believe as a Martial Arts instructor you think that strength is more of a factor than skill, speed, knowledge, timing.

Very hard to believe…

Nono, this spurs great inspiration and made me watch a couple of “drunken master” videos. I think Charr would be at a great disadvantage here because of their spine, at least we don’t know if they can bend backwards as good.

Disclaimer: Mad props to any practitioner of the drunken fist style – and I realize they are not really drunk when doing it

Talking about size difference, since Norn would naturally look for larger prey/opponents, would they be as practiced fighting smaller opponents?

Apparition.1576:

I have provided plenty of counter examples in regards to how important strength is in a one on one fight. I see no rebutes, only contradiction.

Kimbo vs Matt Mitrione UFC 113
ken shamrock vs royce gracie UFC 1
Muhammad Ali vs George Foreman
sugar ray leonard vs roberto duran

In all these fights, the evidence of stregnth was clear. But had absolutely zero factor in the fights. I find it hard to believe as a Martial Arts instructor you think that strength is more of a factor than skill, speed, knowledge, timing.

Very hard to believe…

The fact that you say strength provided zero factor in those fights is a clear indication that you don’t know what you are talking about. It’s clear that in your mind, a factor is only existent with a win.

Furthermore, I’ve addressed both skill and speed. Charr don’t seem to have any large speed advantage that we’ve ever seen and norn are the ones that hone their skills for one on one combat. I’ve acknowleged the other factors while you continue to try to convince (yourself?) that strength plays no part in a fight.

What I have actually said is that strength is a huge factor. Supernatural strength can only be a bigger factor than normal. You continually taking that message to the illogical extreme of “strength is the only factor” is ridiculous and makes no sense.

If that was my message, then I couldn’t have acknowledged the possibility that a charr would ever win because they don’t have supernatural strength. But I did acknowledge the possibility that a charr can win. Go figure.

Rouven.7409:

Talking about size difference, since Norn would naturally look for larger prey/opponents, would they be as practiced fighting smaller opponents?

Well, we do know that norn look for challenges from any size opponent. As long as it is a challenge.

So, thinking about this some more, considering that we simply do not have all the information needed to make an absolute decision – for me it boils down to imagining myself being really strong fighting against a cat of relative size. Even without humanoid intelligence I would not want to go against one in a cage fight. I’d rather fight a bull considering that I might actually be able to hit him (again only if I was superduper strong). Hard to imagine a cat in armour and with arms, but still here I would give Norn the upper hand.

I shall bow out of this thread, I had fun talking about this with you guys.

Dustfinger.9510:

Lonewolf Kai.3682:

Like I said, that’s what I “got” from you contribution in this particular part of the debate, and you seem quite concentrated on it, even with the reply to me. Whether or not you stated it directly matters not. The main idea in your point is that Norn super-strength wins the fight.

What you “got” directly contradicts what I have said. I concentrate on it because posters try to minimize strength as any sort of advantage when it is actually quite a large advantage. And as I have said, pointing out how super natural strength is a very real factor is very different than even implying that strength is the sole deciding factor of a fight.

“So even minimizing the importance of strength, if their individual ability (all told, strength included) is enough to beat a larger organized force of charr, it doesn’t make sense that a lone charr would tend to fair better against a norn who have already tended to be capable of doing so much damage to multiple charr. So the topic of this thread has really already been addressed by a-net and the answer confirmed.” (page 2)

Dustfinger.9510:

Current lore history also points that in general, a Norn is quite often drunk, even to the point of being passed out. And since we have lore history that states what happens to a Norn that’s drunk vs a Charr, we can say that now, in general a Norn vs a Charr will lose…… generally speaking.

Charr are also often drunk. But neither are always drunk. And if norn drinking is a general problem, then it would have been a problem when the norn and charr did fight. if we assume that the norn were definitely drunk and since the norn won then we have to come to the conclusion that alchohol almost never affects the norn fighting ability. Or…. we could just ignore the whole drunk nonsense and dismiss it for what it is.

Fair enough on the strength topic, but you are also dismissing the advantages of other important attributes. Yes, strength is an advantage, I wouldn’t say its more important or a larger advantage over the others however. If you feel that way, that’s your opinion.

If you’re going to dismiss Norn’s often being drunk as nonsense, you’d be dismissing lore. If you want to do that, you’re going to be invalidating a large part of your lore backing.

Also, when it comes to fighting, Charr sober up, unless it’s just a simple Meatober brawl.

Disclaimer: I haven’t read the posts after your reply to me.

Lonewolf Kai.3682:

Fair enough on the strength topic, but you are also dismissing the advantages of other important attributes. Yes, strength is an advantage, I wouldn’t say its more important or a larger advantage over the others however. If you feel that way, that’s your opinion.

If you’re going to dismiss Norn’s often being drunk as nonsense, you’d be dismissing lore. If you want to do that, you’re going to be invalidating a large part of your lore backing.

Also, when it comes to fighting, Charr sober up, unless it’s just a simple Meatober brawl.

Disclaimer: I haven’t read the posts after your reply to me.

I would ask what advantages I’m dismissing. So far, all the other “advantages” that you think are being dismissed aren’t being discussed in depth because there’s nothing in lore to say that they actually exist. What advantages do we know that charr have that would overtly swing the outcome in their favor? because whatever they have has historically not swung the odds in charr favor. The only thing that is confirmed that would have swung the odds in charr favor is even greater numbers. But that doesn’t play into a one on one encounter.

Let’s discuss norn being drunk. If their drunkness is as prevalent as you say, how come the norn still won against the charr?

Dustfinger.9510:

Lonewolf Kai.3682:

Fair enough on the strength topic, but you are also dismissing the advantages of other important attributes. Yes, strength is an advantage, I wouldn’t say its more important or a larger advantage over the others however. If you feel that way, that’s your opinion.

If you’re going to dismiss Norn’s often being drunk as nonsense, you’d be dismissing lore. If you want to do that, you’re going to be invalidating a large part of your lore backing.

Also, when it comes to fighting, Charr sober up, unless it’s just a simple Meatober brawl.

Disclaimer: I haven’t read the posts after your reply to me.

I would ask what advantages I’m dismissing. So far, all the other “advantages” that you think are being dismissed aren’t being discussed in depth because there’s nothing in lore to say that they actually exist. What advantages do we know that charr have that would overtly swing the outcome in their favor? because whatever they have has historically not swung the odds in charr favor. The only thing that is confirmed that would have swung the odds in charr favor is even greater numbers. But that doesn’t play into a one on one encounter.

Let’s discuss norn being drunk. If their drunkness is as prevalent as you say, how come the norn still won against the charr?

I’m not replying on the attributes “rebutal”. It’s entirety is rediculous save for the possible historical content about the greater numbers.

On the drunkness, you mean the few skirmishes that are in lore….. in the past…. If you’re gonna dismiss Norn drunkness, dismiss it, but you’re going to have to dismiss that it is quite prevalent in current lore history.

Lonewolf Kai.3682:

I’m not replying on the attributes “rebutal”. It’s entirety is rediculous save for the possible historical content about the greater numbers.

On the drunkness, you mean the few skirmishes that are in lore….. in the past…. If you’re gonna dismiss Norn drunkness, dismiss it, but you’re going to have to dismiss that it is quite prevalent in current lore history.

Agreed. It is absolutely ridiculous to spend so much time and energy on something that doesn’t actually come into play in the conversation. Since, it appears that there isn’t actually any other factors that would swing the odds in charr favor. Apparentlly.

Is this implying that norn have recently just started to drink?

Quantity over Quality is the theme here obviously.

I see nothing to indicate Norn are drunk everywhere. In Taverns and bars, sure, and in the cities.

But out on the field? I hardly see any who are drunk. Hell, even in Hoelbrek there are huge numbers of Norn who don’t come across as drunk at all outside of the bars…

I think the Norn would win a 1vs1, because Norn are Warriors who often fight alone. Char are Soldiers and usally fight alongside their Warband. So in a 1vs1 the Norn would win, in 8vs8 or something like that the Charrs would win.

Dustfinger.9510:

Agreed. It is absolutely ridiculous to spend so much time and energy on something that doesn’t actually come into play in the conversation. Since, it appears that there isn’t actually any other factors that would swing the odds in charr favor. Apparentlly.

Is this implying that norn have recently just started to drink?

I think we’re going to have to come to a agree to disagree …. agreement on this.

No implying that Norn aren’t new to drunkeness, however, in the GW2 era, it is very rampant all over. I can name numerous scenes where Norns in game are passed out drunk, in the process of getting there, or are about to start up and will get there shortly.

And this brings me back to another point, the GW1 era Norns are not the same as GW2 Norns. And this is most definately true with Charrs. If we were having this conversation in terms of GW1 era, there would be no doubt about it, Norn would win. In GW2, it’s a different story … on several levels.

Kalavier.1097:

I see nothing to indicate Norn are drunk everywhere. In Taverns and bars, sure, and in the cities.

But out on the field? I hardly see any who are drunk. Hell, even in Hoelbrek there are huge numbers of Norn who don’t come across as drunk at all outside of the bars…

Then you aren’t playing the game, haven’t explored much of the different areas, or just aren’t paying attention.

Oddly enough though, it’s quite the opposite with what you said. In Hoelbrek, they are mostly sober there. However, out in the field, drunks everywhere. You’d think it would be the opposite.

I’ve explored 100% of the shiverpeaks with one character, probably 2 or nearly 3.

Yes, around the lodges some do, but not an overwhelming majority. They love their beer but they don’t drink it all the time or become drunk 100% of the time.

Also, as I recall, the only areas with explicitly “passed out drunk” Norn are around two bars, and also include some from other races (for at least the one), and it’s the basis of the heart. Otherwise… nope.

Also, HOW are GW2 era norn different from GW1 era norn? Charr had advanced culturally… but I don’t see how Norn are so different perhaps then being more friendly to other races.

On whether the norn have made a real change since they have moved south, a-net seems to imply that they are still the same old norn. And that humans and char have trouble grasping the concept.

“Ordinarily, they just live in individualistic homesteads, coming together in small trading communities. Now they’re in a new region, living in these great halls, on this much larger and more organized scale. But even those who feel this is a setback to the people don’t view it that way; they’re positive and live in the moment. Humans, for example, look at the loss of Ascalon and the sinking of Orr as “the golden age that has now passed”. The Norn, however, simply view this as a passing obstacle, and someday they will return to the north to retake what’s theirs.”

“The idea that the Charr or Humans have trouble grasping is that, despite the immense size, these great halls are not a city to the Norn. Sure, they have the same amenities as a city, and are operating as a community, but this is essentially just a tactic to enable the Norn to last through their current situation. In the end, this is just a large camp,and eventually things will change and they will move on.”

“Jeff: I believe the norn burn their dead as apposed to bury them. There are ways they treat the dead, invoking the spirits. As far as a set instructions in a book, no. More importantly, this goes back to the way of change that the Norn embrace so well. Just as there would be a party for a wedding, like we saw when Kieren and Gwen got marries in Guild Wars Beyond, the passing of a hero would kick of a wake. The Norn would celebrate his life, not mourn his loss.”

“They are in a target rich environment. They have a lot of things to match their merit with, lots of challenges, and that’s the kind of stuff the Norn thrive on. You establish your legend fighting back the various dangers to the world, so they’re ironically happy with all of these opportunities.”

“I think the Norn will interest players who are more interested in a solo experience, pulling off incredible feats on their own, and bragging about their heroics.”
http://www.guildwarsinsider.com/towertalk-norn-interview-jeff-grubb-transcription/

So a-net seems to be saying that they are generally the same positive, adaptable norn that we have always known.

… there is a LOT of incivility in this thread. Where’s the report feature?

Honestly… it depends on the stakes of the fight. A casual bar brawl can go either way, because there isn’t as much reputation on the line. However, if it’s a contest or Glorious Battle, the advantage swings overwhelmingly to the Norn, because in those situations, the Norn will demonstrate greater ferocity, tenacity, and aggression than the Charr would – sure, the latter may LOOK like a wild animal, but the Norn is on a whole different level entirely. The charr finds merely his life on the line. The Norn has not only his life, but also his reputation and legend on the line, which are FAR more valuable.

I keep seeing people say it takes intelligence and agility to fight, because that combination allows landing more blows… except, it doesn’t matter if someone can win a fight in 3 solid blows and it takes 40 to take them down. And even then, greater strength is greater speed. And, the more upright and secured structure of a Norn makes it more agile where it counts in a fight. Norn fight with the agility of Bruce Lee and the strength of Thor. Charr fight more like slinkies on steroids.

Well… charr fight like a slinky? not sure where your getting that from :P

Sartharina.3542:

… there is a LOT of incivility in this thread. Where’s the report feature?

Honestly… it depends on the stakes of the fight. A casual bar brawl can go either way, because there isn’t as much reputation on the line. However, if it’s a contest or Glorious Battle, the advantage swings overwhelmingly to the Norn, because in those situations, the Norn will demonstrate greater ferocity, tenacity, and aggression than the Charr would – sure, the latter may LOOK like a wild animal, but the Norn is on a whole different level entirely. The charr finds merely his life on the line. The Norn has not only his life, but also his reputation and legend on the line, which are FAR more valuable.

I keep seeing people say it takes intelligence and agility to fight, because that combination allows landing more blows… except, it doesn’t matter if someone can win a fight in 3 solid blows and it takes 40 to take them down. And even then, greater strength is greater speed. And, the more upright and secured structure of a Norn makes it more agile where it counts in a fight. Norn fight with the agility of Bruce Lee and the strength of Thor. Charr fight more like slinkies on steroids.

spring force > static force , so your last argument is for a charr win .

I will not dwell, the best conclusions have already been made, but here the errors are cumulated. Already you have reversed roles, Norns are quiet and proud fighters ( their official vertues are : independence, legend and passion) them, while the Charr are savages, aggressive and bloodlust.

We all agree that Norn will tend to win in a 1vs1 but this still is a close fight.

Norn have a more ‘stable’ gait, and by extension somewhat less range of motion, but can get to any point in that range of motion nearly immediately. Charr lack the equillibrium and stability due to their digitigrade stance, tails, and arched/hunched spine that don’t allow their hips, shoulders, knees,base of the skull, and ankles to remain aligned vertically with the center of gravity, and remain aligned as they move in any direction. Charr would be better at maneuvering around a battlefield because of their dynamic posture and long arms, but they lack the agility to move within their own space as well.

It’s less “Puma Vs. Ape” and more “An Oversized and Clawed King Kong vs. A Very Fast Gipsy Danger”, in terms of how a battle likely goes down.

Sartharina.3542:

Norn have a more ‘stable’ gait, and by extension somewhat less range of motion, but can get to any point in that range of motion nearly immediately. Charr lack the equillibrium and stability due to their digitigrade stance, tails, and arched/hunched spine that don’t allow their hips, shoulders, knees,base of the skull, and ankles to remain aligned vertically with the center of gravity, and remain aligned as they move in any direction. Charr would be better at maneuvering around a battlefield because of their dynamic posture and long arms, but they lack the agility to move within their own space as well.

It’s less “Puma Vs. Ape” and more “An Oversized and Clawed King Kong vs. A Very Fast Gipsy Danger”, in terms of how a battle likely goes down.

I would love to see how meaningless this post would be with just one slash by a charr to the Norn’s kidney.

eg. Power doesn’t mean anything if your ribs are broken.

Rampage Jackson vs Wanderleigh Silva

Assuming the charr slash connects and accurately hits with enough damage to cause it.

Or the slash isn’t blocked and the Charr’s face punched in.

edit: How would a claw slash break their ribs? o_O.

Considering an asuran warrior deals the same damage as a norn warrior doing the same thing, I think in GW2 individual strength doesn’t matter at highest levels, because the armor you wear is an exoskeleton that greatly enhances your capabilities.

redslion.9675:

Considering an asuran warrior deals the same damage as a norn warrior doing the same thing, I think in GW2 individual strength doesn’t matter at highest levels, because the armor you wear is an exoskeleton that greatly enhances your capabilities.

Game mechanics.

Kalavier.1097:

redslion.9675:

Considering an asuran warrior deals the same damage as a norn warrior doing the same thing, I think in GW2 individual strength doesn’t matter at highest levels, because the armor you wear is an exoskeleton that greatly enhances your capabilities.

Game mechanics.

I am from Dark Souls school: Game Mechanics = Game World phenomena

“Weak things come in small packages.” – Ploink

“This is in the game mechanics so I’m walking on thin ice at the moment.//You may have the ability to become the wolf or snow leopard as well. This is from the play standpoint as opposed to lore, we are still in discussions about this.” – Jeff Grubb
http://www.guildwarsinsider.com/towertalk-norn-interview-jeff-grubb-transcription/

redslion.9675:

Kalavier.1097:

redslion.9675:

Considering an asuran warrior deals the same damage as a norn warrior doing the same thing, I think in GW2 individual strength doesn’t matter at highest levels, because the armor you wear is an exoskeleton that greatly enhances your capabilities.

Game mechanics.

I am from Dark Souls school: Game Mechanics = Game World phenomena

In GW2, that is untrue.

Everybody is balanced in terms of speed, jump height, and damage.

A single norn can take out entire warbands, they cannot in game mechanics.

Asura likewise, cannot run as fast as a Norn (because shorter legs/smaller lung capacity), ingame they can.

^ This.

But, take a note that not every warband is equal to eachother. Either in number, as well as in training and fighting style. If a norn would face let’s say Stone Warband, I am sure he wouldn’t win.

Not to mention Ash Legion warbands, or Iron Legion ones, where either stealth or bigarse guns aid them in combat.