Guild Wars 2

Akechi Hotaru.7129:

@SynfulChaot I get that it’s an mmo but I’d like to criticize a couple of your statements.

1. As the “Grand Marshall” of the Pact, Trahearne constantly defers to the player characters judgement. He’s a backseat leader that just takes the credit when things go well and expects you to save him when things dont.

2. I would love to have a statue in DR because I ascended to godhood in NF, not constantly be reminded that I was essentially a sidekick in my own story.

I get it, how can you personalize an mmo? It’s something the mmo industry has been asking since infancy. I’m just sick of gloryhogs that do none of the work.

Who gets the statue in DR, the first player to beat nightfall? the one to beat it the fastest? the last person to beat it? Or should we have the asura nuke DR into a flat land so we can build 15,00,000 statues for all the players that beat it?

OP sums up my feelings pretty well. Kiel is just your typical corrupt politician who takes credit for all the successes and blames the troops for your failure. Thankfully we’re at a point where she isn’t a politician yet, so this can be avoided.

#KillKiel

Let’s end this whining about the player being robbed of his godhood/Kormir taking credit for everything, shall we:

And so it came to pass that Spearmarshal Kormir, hero of all Elona, was pulled into the inky blackness surrounding the God of Secrets. And though her sight had been robbed, her body wracked, and her spirit flayed, she remained resolute.

And so was she joined within the Realm of Torment by fearless allies, <character name> and other great heroes, who stood at her side as she sought to thwart Nightfall. Together did they battle through Fear, and Anguish, and Madness, until at last they stood before the face of the imprisoned god; he who had challenged the Five and lost; he who threatened to break the chains placed upon him by the other gods; he who now sought to bring Nightfall to the world: the dark god, Abaddon.

And so did Kormir and her allies engage the dark god in titanic battle. And through her power, and their combined skill and bravery, and the blessings of the Five True Gods, did Abaddon at last face his ultimate defeat.

Yet the power of a god cannot be destroyed, and Kormir, making a choice that only a mortal could make, did take upon herself the mantle of the Goddess of Truth, with all its power and responsibility, all its dominion and duties.

And so by mortal hands did a new immortal enter creation.

- Scriptures of Kormir, 1075 AE

There. (Y)our ancestor(s) is/are immortalized in the scriptures of a god.

I think people need to get over the fact that the developers are not going to make your character a god.

I don’t know who Trahearne is but if its a spoiler for some story I rather not know if but if no big deal I would like to know please. Thank you!

I’m voting for Kiel because it’s the right decision. that and the 90% of the vocal group voting for evon are just plagued with misconceptions.

I’m voting for Gnashblade, I want to see Rox and Braham team up with Kiel and possibly Marjory. It would be pretty cool to see them all on Kiel’s air ship working together taking down what ever anet throws at us next. Also, if Kiel looses she goes back to being a detective, so we might get more noire like story lines.

I do understand why people want Kiel to win but I feel future stories will be more entertaining with Gnashblade on the council. Siding will Kiel seems like the story will move away from political intrigue, but i may be wrong. Can’t wait for the new survival mini game and another fractal, whichever one it may be.

Just remember that the Fall of Abadoon fractal will be the very first fall, when he was fighting against the other gods, not against the heroes.

SynfulChaot.3169:

Navzar.2938:

SynfulChaot.3169:

We don’t know if she’s been doing anything useful since the events of GW1 as the gods went strangely silent. I’m pretty sure she has been, though.

Useless in game. As in in all the missions the closest thing she does to being helpful is use “Incoming!” on your allies near the beginning. Yet still gets the credit for your missions in lore.

She attained godhood as the gods graced her with the gift to contain Abbadon’s power. Not us.

And last I checked, she did not take sole credit for the defeat of Abbadon. She played a role, but it is not claimed that she did it alone. Nor is she portrayed as stopping Nightfall herself.

Yes, she is useless in-game. 95% or more of NPCs are as NPC AI in all games is kittening bad.

Give up the goddess thing, it’s a red herring and a circular argument.. Yes she became the new god. But that was after any game play involving her. It doesn’t magically change the thing prior to it.

Most quest ally npcs actually do something, like at least hit things and sponging up some damage. It’s not about “we were robbed”, or “I want to be a god”, it’s simply about her being a lousy character, that’s why people dislike her.

Navzar.2938:

Give up the goddess thing, it’s a red herring and a circular argument.. Yes she became the new god. But that was after any game play involving her. It doesn’t magically change the thing prior to it.

Most quest ally npcs actually do something, like at least hit things and sponging up some damage. It’s not about “we were robbed”, or “I want to be a god”, it’s simply about her being a lousy character, that’s why people dislike her.

No. Most NPC allies are a liability, not a boon. I can’t remember the last useful NPC ally that I did not control in any game I have ever played.

I don’t expect in-game performance from the NPCs. I expect them to fill their duties for lore reasons. To be an interesting chara. Kormir was, as unpopular an opinion as that may be.

Most just hate her as she “steals their story”.

I love how people took my response and failed to read all of it. I said I understand that It’s not really possible to do any of the things I listed in an mmo format, especially since there is a huge crop of players how arent gw1 vets. Basically my gripe is that I’m sick of being a sidekick to an npc. Its certainly easier for the writers to have an npc take all the glory and do great things while we play puppetmaster but it’s not Innovative. Anet is all about innovation, they say so on every blog post, video, and press conference. In short if Anet wanted to innovate the living story by giving the player instances where the choices they personally make affect their own experience they easily could. They did dabble in such tactics with the home instances during your personal story, they just never went further than dabbling in it though.

I’m just complaining really, I don’t expect or care if anyone reads this nor do I want any smartkitten responses about it. So if you’ve read this rant I commend you and if you decided not to waste your time and mine by quoting it I’ll give you a gold star. A good day to you all.

SynfulChaot.3169:

She attained godhood as the gods graced her with the gift to contain Abbadon’s power. Not us.

This is true. Although GW1 & its cutscenes did a horrible job of depicting it, there were several times when a Character Ascended or was “infused” with a greater capacity to house some Godlike power. Shiro also had this happen to him though he was tricked into it by the Fortune Teller who was actually a high level Demon/Titan thing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcFEe2odAuo
About 1 minute in: That’s unmistakably some of Dwayna’s powers getting “highlandered” into him.

With Kormir, it happens in the Mission right before you kill Abbadon. (though it makes more sense if you’re also able to complete the Bonus objective but most people usually couldn’t b/c they didn’t know how to manage Shiro’s Aggro).

It’s also not fair to compare Kormir to Trahearne really. Kormir had a strong personality and really pure motives & valor atleast at the Start of the story. To a lot of people who’m Nightfall was their first introduction to guildwars, she was actually really the definition of a strong Mentor starting off. Any problems ppl had with her probably were more to do with the later missions that followed where I’m not really sure what went wrong TBH.

Also, if that fractal is released it will NOT involve Komir as the events will take place before the events of Prophecies even existed. So no Komir.

What your trying to say is Kiel is the new Rurik/ Traherne and no your wrong, because Kiel is useful and not cumbersome to be around. The best part about Rurik is that you got to see him get his kitten kicked… twice. Traherne…well, he’s just a punk.

Shemsu.8721:

Traveller.7496:

SynfulChaot.3169:

We don’t want that stuff. We want to play the game. Those charas are made to take those roles as, as a player, those rewards are not rewards at all.

I would have been satisfied that my character became a God after Nightfall or the Lord Commander of the Pact forces in GW2. Instead of, like, the best friend of the hero of the movie who gets the girl and you get her ugly cousin.

So should LA have a council with 15,000,000 seats so every “hero” “main” character player gets a seat? How would that work exactly. Everyone beats the personal story, so should the pact have 15,000,000 lord commanders? I’m not sure how people fail to understand that you just cant do that in an mmo. Yeah it works for fallout and skyrim, those are single player, there is only one hero. You have to tell a story different in an mmo. Get over it, you experience the story, you ARE NOT the main character

NO DAMMIT

IF KIEL WANTS THE DWAYNADAMMED CAPTAIN SEAT, SHE NEEDS TO F#$@ING DESERVE IT

AND RIGHT NOW SHE’S NOT. SHE HAS NEVER EVEN DONE ANYTHING, UNLESS YOU COUNT STEALING CREDITS AS SOMETHING.

huff…. huff….

for f*@#‘s sake, people these days don’t know jack pie about “earning your keep”, or in this case “earning your captain’s seat”. The blind Lionguard captain from Claw island has done more than she does. Nobody will mind if Kiel is actually useful, more useful than you, but Kiel simply isn’t useful: she’s useless

Raestloz.7134:

NO DAMMIT

IF KIEL WANTS THE DWAYNADAMMED CAPTAIN SEAT, SHE NEEDS TO F#$@ING DESERVE IT

AND RIGHT NOW SHE’S NOT. SHE HAS NEVER EVEN DONE ANYTHING, UNLESS YOU COUNT STEALING CREDITS AS SOMETHING.

huff…. huff….

for f*@#‘s sake, people these days don’t know jack pie about “earning your keep”, or in this case “earning your captain’s seat”. The blind Lionguard captain from Claw island has done more than she does. Nobody will mind if Kiel is actually useful, more useful than you, but Kiel simply isn’t useful: she’s useless

She’s done a lot to deserve it. I’m not sure how you haven’t noticed any of it. Unless, of course, like most gamers you bypass all dialogue in the Living Story then ask why things don’t make sense.

I’ve said it elsewhere, but the thing that saddens me most about this election is how much of a role the “Kormir syndrome” – envy of players to an NPC getting something that it wouldn’t have been practical to give to PCs. Out of character, there are certainly valid reasons to support Evon, but from what I’ve been seeing in the forums, it really looks like a substantial contingent of Evon’s followers are motivated by, let’s not mince words here, petty jealousy.

I guess it’s counterbalanced somewhat by the people who are proudly saying they’ll vote for Kiel because bewbs, but even so…

Navzar.2938:

I’m not saying Kormir took credit because she took the power. I wouldn’t want to be stuck in that realm, would you? I say because if you look at all the lore, it says that Kormir is the one who defeated abaddon, with help. When she actually did nothing but release him in the first place, and absorb his power when he died.

{snip}

And once again, it’s not about Kormir getting the power, it’s about her not doing anything useful.

Things Kormir did:

Released Abaddon by delving to deep: Bad… at first glance. When you look into the history, though, Abaddon had been stirring for centuries before then, and it’s likely that Kahyet was already a cultust before then. Kormir may have contributed to breaking some final seal, but it’s just as likely that events would have played out regardless, and if Kormir’s curiosity had had any effect at all, her not doing so would at best have delayed Nightfall. Furthermore, that curiosity may have been what made the gods feel she was suitable to be the goddess of Knowledge.

Recruited the new generation of Sunspears that would then fight against Nightfall, then recruited allies from overseas heroes. None of us would have been in a position to do anything without her intervention.

Initiated hostilities against Varesh. Yes, it went badly, but someone had to do it.

Got sucked into the Realm of Torment.

Once there, rallied the other friendly spirits in there to scout the Realm of Torment and discover where to go to carry on the war against Abaddon. Without her… well, we may have been able to find a way to reach and defeat Abaddon in time. We also may not have.

In terms of getting stuff done – sure, she didn’t score the killing blow, and wasn’t an effective combatant after she was blinded (but as described above, game mechanics can probably explain that) but as far as the story is concerned, she did quite a bit.

The problem I have with Trahearne was that he spent most of the time whining. “This won’t end well” seemed to be all he ever said. He moans when things don’t go exactly as he wants. This baffles me as to why every other NPC wanted him to be in charge. Why would one follow a whining, pessimistic brat? Then add in the fact that he comes out of nowhere, just some NPC telling you they know him.

Kiel follows the standard military leader role. She says go do and people go do, then she takes credit because it was her idea. She progresses with the mindset that whatever she’s having done will work and when things don’t work, she says “kitten ” and moves on (there is no “woe is me” with the player dialog trying to encourage, just player dialog saying “what’s next?”).

With Trahearne it feels like nothing would have got done if he was left without the player. With Kiel it feels like things would still get done, if not by the player, by someone else. Trahearne seems like my child, who I coddle and push to get them to learn and succeed, then I give credit with “no it was all you” so they feel better about their self. Kiel seems like my boss, who I volunteer to report to and get orders from, then gets credit because I’m helping her under her direction, not mine.

Whiskey or fine wine op? You earned it.

Let’s say it’s unavoidable to make your character the “true” hero…

I’d be more than happy to be Tybalt’s side-kick, because at least I like him.

I saw Ellen Kiel actually going around reviving/healing members of my group when we ran the Aetherblade Retreat. She is the first NPC in the history of the Guild Wars universe who doesn’t think it’s cool to act like a suicidal chipmunk and spend most of any combat faceplanted on the ground.

While modern NPCs no longer follow the tenets of their 250 year old counterparts who thought one was legally obligated to aggro every mob in a 150 miles radius, this foreign concept of NPCs that provide real benefit to player groups could be encouraged with Ellen Kiel’s leadership.

Of course, she also doesn’t setting foot in Frizz’s Lab and just stands outside leaving the players to die horribly. This is a sign of either great intelligence or amoral psychopathy. Either could be useful traits in the person running LA.

Vahkris.6847:

I think people need to get over the fact that the developers are not going to make your character a god.

I don’t need my character to be a god but I would like to be the focus of the story and get credit for the thigns I do. I’m sick of playing second fiddle to Trahearne and Keil.

The story should be about the player, not about the NPC ally.

SynfulChaot.3169:

She’s done a lot to deserve it. I’m not sure how you haven’t noticed any of it. Unless, of course, like most gamers you bypass all dialogue in the Living Story then ask why things don’t make sense.

She literally sat in the resort of Southsun Cove for the entirety of the event until a yak needed to be escorted (she talked to an NPC after an event she didn’t help with and she also arrived after we defeated Canache). The feats accomplished in Southsun, Sky Pirates and Dragon Bash are accomplished by the player, not by Kiel. She takes credit in the story, but it’s the player doing all the work.

The mechanics of story allow for the player to be recognised as the hero. Trahearne had one second in command, it was always the player, not thousands of players. Tybalt had one partner, not thousands of partners. The story is full of one off events that couldn’t possibly happen to multiple people, yet everyone is able to experience them as if it happened to them (including the Living Story). Sure the player becoming a god is impractical, but the way it was written was wrong. Kormir didn’t earn it. It doesn’t bother me that the player character never became a god, it does bother me that Kormir did essentially off of the work of the player.

It’s the same with Kiel. Story after story the player is doing everything yet the story isn’t recognising the player, it’s recognising Kiel. It doesn’t make for a very compelling game to have the NPC do all the work, sure. You know what? Don’t make the NPC do any work! In fact, why do we need the NPC present in the gameplay at all? Why can’t the NPC just act as a tool for exposition, but when the work is done, the player gets the recognition. Logan sent Marjory to Lion’s Arch, does he get credit for everything Marjory did while she was there? Of course not. Why does Kiel constantly tell the player what to do and once the the player has done it, she comes in to take the credit from Magnus?

We are the heroes. It’s our game and when it comes to completing content we are always going to be the ones doing the work. Characters like Kiel detract from the story because they take the importance of the player out of it. We are still present for the gameplay, but our role in the story is diminished to sidekicks or lackeys and when all the work is done, the story doesn’t recognise that, it recognises a character that we know didn’t do what it’s claimed they did.

One of the advantages of storytelling in a game is that it’s interactive. The player gets to be the hero. There is a disconnect with the Living Story when characters like Kiel are recognised as heroes despite not actually doing the work of a hero. The interactive element doesn’t support the version of events that the story is telling.

Kiel did not get all the credit, Kormir did not, Trahearne did not and Togo and Mhenlo did not. Numerous times your character is praised and celebrated, and some players insist that any time someone else is acknowledged they are being given all the credit.

You might object that the lore and cut scenes mention Kormir, but not the player. Well, that is the limit of today’s computer technology. They cannot mention your character’s name and don’t know which of your characters who completed Nightfall you would want listed. Furthermore, even if they could, if I am in a party I don’t want to hear “Pwns Wit Daggerz accompanied Kormir in the Realm of Torment…”

Your characters are given plenty of credit and if you don’t see that then your attention is being extremely selective.

Shiren.9532:

SynfulChaot.3169:

She’s done a lot to deserve it. I’m not sure how you haven’t noticed any of it. Unless, of course, like most gamers you bypass all dialogue in the Living Story then ask why things don’t make sense.

She literally sat in the resort of Southsun Cove for the entirety of the event until a yak needed to be escorted (she talked to an NPC after an event she didn’t help with and she also arrived after we defeated Canache). The feats accomplished in Southsun, Sky Pirates and Dragon Bash are accomplished by the player, not by Kiel. She takes credit in the story, but it’s the player doing all the work.

You’re mixing in-game actions you see with out-of-game actions that are stated to have existed. She is a primary NPC we must interact with, thus she must stay accessible to us as players. That normally means that she must stay in one location that we can always find her in. That doesn’t mean all she does is stand there lore-wise. It just means she is always there for game mechanics. Read up on the lore and what is told to us. You’ll find that she has done far more than just standing there.

Shiren.9532:

The mechanics of story allow for the player to be recognised as the hero. Trahearne had one second in command, it was always the player, not thousands of players. Tybalt had one partner, not thousands of partners. The story is full of one off events that couldn’t possibly happen to multiple people, yet everyone is able to experience them as if it happened to them (including the Living Story). Sure the player becoming a god is impractical, but the way it was written was wrong. Kormir didn’t earn it. It doesn’t bother me that the player character never became a god, it does bother me that Kormir did essentially off of the work of the player.

It’s the same with Kiel. Story after story the player is doing everything yet the story isn’t recognising the player, it’s recognising Kiel. It doesn’t make for a very compelling game to have the NPC do all the work, sure. You know what? Don’t make the NPC do any work! In fact, why do we need the NPC present in the gameplay at all? Why can’t the NPC just act as a tool for exposition, but when the work is done, the player gets the recognition. Logan sent Marjory to Lion’s Arch, does he get credit for everything Marjory did while she was there? Of course not. Why does Kiel constantly tell the player what to do and once the the player has done it, she comes in to take the credit from Magnus?

We are the heroes. It’s our game and when it comes to completing content we are always going to be the ones doing the work. Characters like Kiel detract from the story because they take the importance of the player out of it. We are still present for the gameplay, but our role in the story is diminished to sidekicks or lackeys and when all the work is done, the story doesn’t recognise that, it recognises a character that we know didn’t do what it’s claimed they did.

One of the advantages of storytelling in a game is that it’s interactive. The player gets to be the hero. There is a disconnect with the Living Story when characters like Kiel are recognised as heroes despite not actually doing the work of a hero. The interactive element doesn’t support the version of events that the story is telling.

Both characters do not take the importance of the player chara out. They do not take credit for all actions done by the player. Yes, we are not the focus of everything. Because it would not make sense.

We did great things in Nightfall and stopped Abbadon, but we didn’t have the gift to contain Abbadon’s power. Kormir did. That isn’t taking anything from the player. It is openly acknowledged that Kormir and the player character defeated Abbadon. Not just Kormir.

As for Southsun? Would we even have been involved if it wasn’t for Kiel? Would we have even ‘solved the mystery’? Would we have even found Canach’s lair? No. We were the muscle, not the brains. That’s how it was written. She was the brains and the organizer. Thus it is only common sense that she gets the overall credit for taking care of business.

JohnLShannonhouse.1820:

Kiel did not get all the credit, Kormir did not, Trahearne did not and Togo and Mhenlo did not. Numerous times your character is praised and celebrated, and some players insist that any time someone else is acknowledged they are being given all the credit.

You might object that the lore and cut scenes mention Kormir, but not the player. Well, that is the limit of today’s computer technology. They cannot mention your character’s name and don’t know which of your characters who completed Nightfall you would want listed. Furthermore, even if they could, if I am in a party I don’t want to hear “Pwns Wit Daggerz accompanied Kormir in the Realm of Torment…”

Your characters are given plenty of credit and if you don’t see that then your attention is being extremely selective.

Looking over the dialogue from the Living Story in all the Kiel chapters, I don’t even see the player being praised or thanked. Kiel is praised numerous times by Mangus and given an airship. Magnus doesn’t even recognise the player’s work (nor does Kiel point it out when talking to him).The player is treated like second fiddle, Robin to the NPC’s Batman.

I’m not being selective in my memory, but you’re certainly forgetting several times in the story where you have a name that’s used in the dialogue. If you played through the personal story of every race you may have noticed that several times throughout the story you are given a name. Hero of Shaemoor, Commander etc. Not only is it possible to recognise the player in the story, it’s frequently done. Final Fantasy 10 and several other games made entire RPGs off of a nameless hero.

I didn’t mention Togo and Mhenlo because Mhenlo doesn’t take credit and Togo does do something the player does (more than can be said of Kormir), he sacrifices his life, yet still the player is seen as the hero (which is healthily reflected when the player returns during Winds of Change and everyone recognises you as the hero of Cantha and several NPCs even recognise you as their enemy from your other actions in Tyria across all the campaigns). Mhenlo follows the player around through every campaign and yet somehow he still managed to avoid stealing the spot light (except for when it comes to his numerous girlfriends). He always manages to be a secondary character to the player and usually only had prominence in the story when he was used as a tool to advance the plot (he acts as the Tyrian character’s link to Cantha in the first place, he also acts as the counter point to Togo when the player splits up to work with Kurzicks). Even if you look at Koss and the other heroes from Nightfall, they all manage to avoid overshadowing the player in the story.

First I am only going off what I am reading since I did not play GW1 so please correct me if I am wrong.

Are people really whining the NPC is getting the credit in the story? MAYBE thats how the story is suppose to be! The battle is just there for you have to fun. This has been done in other games. In the actual storymode in one game, YOU don’t kill the super duper bad boss, someone else does and shows the battle. However, they do allow you form a party to fight the boss yourself for fun but as story goes, you didn’t defeat it though you did help but not with a 77867666 other people.

Stop complaining that they steal the credit unless its actually part of the story but from what I am reading, people are just complaining about something mechanically related.

Sorann Peace.9056:

I’m quite the contrary to most people anyways. I like Kormir, Trahearne, Logan, Destiny’s Edge, Ellen Kiel, etc. But that is because I don’t seem to perceive them the same way everybody else does. To me, Logan made up for the death of Snaff by nearly sacrificing his life to save the rest of Destiny’s Edge in Arah. I think Kormir and Trahearne are likeable characters, and I actually LOVE characters that make wrong choices or mistakes, because to me that shows the character is more real. It shows even heroes can make mistakes. In the case of not getting credit for anything, I call that complete and utter kitten. Home Instance shows you reverence. Trahearne calls you a friend and invaluable ally. Destiny’s Edge literally thanks YOU for getting them back together. Just because you’re not Number One doesn’t mean you don’t get credit. There’s multiple heroes in the story, not just you, and I actually LIKE that. So meh.

EDIT: This post should’ve quoted Mathog.3157 but I forgot to do that. Oops.

I agree with all this post

Shiren, welcome to how the world works 101. If one of city x’s police districts suddenly has a massive drop in crime because the beat cops have been pulling extra shifts do they get the credit or does the captain in charge of the that district? If the mayor orders the police commissioner to crack down and all across the city police work overtime to close more cases, increase arrest rates. Are those police awarded or does the commissioner and mayor take credit with the media for their great leadership and strategy?

You said in one of your posts that the player does what Kiel tells them to, then takes credit. That means she’s leading, the plan is hers, and it worked. I actually loved the way this story has panned out with her the last few months, because thats how things actually work. The people that work the hardest get the least credit. Welcome to Life.

I don’t understand why people hate Kormir and Trahearne. Kormir led the Sunspears extremely successfully for years before the player joined the Order, she got tortured by Kournans, got her EYES EATEN OUT OF HER SKULL, and even after all of that she established a web of spies throughout Abaddon’s Realm. What did the player do? Pretty much only beat stuff up. Beat a lot of really strong things up but still.
As for Trahearne, he studied Orr for 25 years, knowing more about the corrupted land than anyone alive. He proved himself to be a fair and balanced leader of the Pact. He was born exclusively for this purpose. What did we do? We beat stuff up, and infiltrated some places. We wouldn’t have survived without them! We did the fighting yes, but they planned out everything! Without their thinking we would have failed!
Kiel on the other hand is really just doing her job as she’s told. She gets the exact amount of praise she deserves from Magnus. We aren’t even lionguard! We are just volunteering to help.

Come on guys.

Let’s go to hell and kill Satan!

Chris Starflame.1023:

I don’t understand why people hate Kormir and Trahearne. Kormir led the Sunspears extremely successfully for years before the player joined the Order, she got tortured by Kournans, got her EYES EATEN OUT OF HER SKULL, and even after all of that she established a web of spies throughout Abaddon’s Realm. What did the player do? Pretty much only beat stuff up. Beat a lot of really strong things up but still.
As for Trahearne, he studied Orr for 25 years, knowing more about the corrupted land than anyone alive. He proved himself to be a fair and balanced leader of the Pact. He was born exclusively for this purpose. What did we do? We beat stuff up, and infiltrated some places. We wouldn’t have survived without them! We did the fighting yes, but they planned out everything! Without their thinking we would have failed!
Kiel on the other hand is really just doing her job as she’s told. She gets the exact amount of praise she deserves from Magnus. We aren’t even lionguard! We are just volunteering to help.

Its nice to see someone understands. So many self-entitled folk around here

Akechi Hotaru.7129:

1. As the “Grand Marshall” of the pact, Trahearne constantly defers to the player characters judgement. He’s a backseat leader that just takes the credit when things go well and expects you to save him when things dont.

I’m not a fan of Trahearne either, mostly because he is so pessimistic all the time.
However, I would like to point out that he defers to our judgement because he had to take a role that he never wanted and that he doesn’t think he is capable of performing. Also, he hopes that we will help him when something goes wrong because he sees the player character as a close friend and the most reliable ally. That’s what friends do, they help each other. And yes, if you can keep him alive, Trahearne will help you by ressing you if you need to be ressed. Sure, it is hard to die before him, but still. He could be improved by making his DPS higher so that we could actually feel that he was being helpful, IMO. If he stopped repeating that “this won’t end well” that would be great, too. He was supposed to inspire us, right?

The OP is right. In our Personal Story WE SHOULD HAVE BEEN IN CHARGE not Trahearne. I would have seen the story like this:
We go to LA and meet the heros. We become part of an order in which we become the best commander. Than we help the other orders and in the end they all elect the player as a commander for the assault on Orr. We as leaders would have had to make choices in where to send each army and take responsibilities for that.
We would have started with few NPCs following us and ending up with AN ARMY who followed us as leaders. We wont have to report Trahearne after every mission but other teams we sent in the field would report to us. (this could have made a lot of story splittings.)
The personal story as it is now it is good and long enough for a 60$ RPG but it feels really rushed for calling it GW1 sequel and it is trapped in its case because I see less changes that could be done to it.

One thing i think needs to be done is correctly define & diagnose the Kormir Syndrome. You may disagree with me and that is fine, but this is how I would define it.

Kormir Syndrome: Named after the first person to most likely have it, Kormir Syndrome is a story issue with NPCs in which, because of their position or actions, the player character feels as though the NPC is rewarded for the effort and work of the player. This causes a feeling of jealousy towards said NPC, because of aforementioned rewards that the NPC receives despite the work the player has done. Also related to Useless NPC syndrome.

Using this definition we can begin by determining that Kormir does in fact suffer from her Syndrome (even if only she had the “gift” from the gods or whatever.) Our next patient is Trahearne. I haven’t fully played thru the personal story yet. Kiel. Kiel does very little in the Canach/Null instance, and not much in AR, form what I hear. She is promo’ed to Captain and is told to run for Councilor. Sounds like a more mild case of Kormir Syndrome and a good bit of a power play for Magnus (Kiel on the Council? Moar Powa!)

Thus, I conclude that GW and GW2 do suffer from Kormir Syndrome

Mostly agree, with a couple of subtle changes:

Kormir Syndrome: Named after the first Guild Wars NPC to have it, Kormir Syndrome is a story issue with NPCs in which, because of their position or actions, some players feel as though the NPC is rewarded for the effort and work of the player character. This causes a feeling of jealousy towards said NPC, because of aforementioned rewards that the NPC receives and the player character does not, despite the work the player character has done. Also related to Useless NPC syndrome.

With the above definition, I think it’s clear that Kormir, Trahearne and Kiel have it. (Whether the deserve to have it is another question entirely and beyond the scope of the definition.)

Pennry.9215:

The problem I have with Trahearne was that he spent most of the time whining. “This won’t end well” seemed to be all he ever said.

This is more because ArenaNet decided to give the characters battle lines, but didn’t have any scripts for determining which ones were appropriate or enough to have sufficient variety for half of the personal story.

Myself, every time Trahearne said that I imagined my character adding “for them”.

Shiren.9532:

She literally sat in the resort of Southsun Cove for the entirety of the event until a yak needed to be escorted (she talked to an NPC after an event she didn’t help with and she also arrived after we defeated Canache). The feats accomplished in Southsun, Sky Pirates and Dragon Bash are accomplished by the player, not by Kiel. She takes credit in the story, but it’s the player doing all the work.

You weren’t paying attention. There were dialogues at various points in the game showing her putting pieces together and making plans – talking with the asura in Canach’s Folly (Retti, I think – the one that predicted the karka attack in the first place) about the growths inciting the wildlife. Later, she starts appearing after the assault events on the central settlement, questioning a norn about the norn’s involvement in Canach’s plots and identifying Canach from the description of the ringl;eader. Finally, there’s a conversation where she tells Noll to put the contracts on a Lionguard ship because the Consortium ships would be already marked… which conveniently allows her to put them on a ship whose crew can evacuate before blowing the ship to Cantha.

You may have just seen her standing around the resort area, but she was investigating while we were fighting.

While I don’t see why people are comparing Kiel to Trahearne, in fact I always got the feeling that she never wanted the glory in the first place and still does not, there is one thing Kiel supporter seem to be forgetting:

There is every possibility this is a power ploy by Magnus. Think about it, Magnus appears to be buddy buddy with Kiel atm, so what does he seek to gain by getting a new, inexperienced in politics leader, on the council? He gets more power by proxy.

With Evon, we know what we are getting. With Kiel, we are getting a potentially horrible or excellent wild card.

I’m still torn myself. I like Kiel, but I don’t trust Magnus.

Mabey she doesn’t do anything in the battle just standing around but hey at least shes there and willing to die for the cause. While the charr may sell you some stuff with discount?

First of all, npcs are only a liability if they have a you-fail-the-missions-if-they-die type (and even then, they can be quite useful if you play right and don’t let them die, which isn’t hard, so they’re only sometimes a liability), or if they charge in and aggro up everything and never stop(rurik). Most characters given a powerful role are actually useful. They stay with your group, have some decent skills, don’t get themselves killed or sabotage your work.

draxynnic.3719:

Things Kormir did:

Released Abaddon by delving to deep: Bad… at first glance. When you look into the history, though, Abaddon had been stirring for centuries before then, and it’s likely that Kahyet was already a cultust before then. Kormir may have contributed to breaking some final seal, but it’s just as likely that events would have played out regardless, and if Kormir’s curiosity had had any effect at all, her not doing so would at best have delayed Nightfall. Furthermore, that curiosity may have been what made the gods feel she was suitable to be the goddess of Knowledge.

It’s not “at first glance”, even if nightfall would have only been delayed, that doesn’t change the fact that she was an accomplice to the crime.

Recruited the new generation of Sunspears that would then fight against Nightfall, then recruited allies from overseas heroes. None of us would have been in a position to do anything without her intervention.

She asked people for help, yes. That’s not very difficult to do or achieve. The physical recruiting, was also not her, and frankly just standard procedure for any military organization.

Initiated hostilities against Varesh. Yes, it went badly, but someone had to do it.

Got sucked into the Realm of Torment.

Not faulting her for this, but it doesn’t give her any credentials either. Even if someone had to bear the brunt of it for Elona, that doesn’t mean directly and deliberately walking into a known trap.

Once there, rallied the other friendly spirits in there to scout the Realm of Torment and discover where to go to carry on the war against Abaddon. Without her… well, we may have been able to find a way to reach and defeat Abaddon in time. We also may not have.

Wrong! They were already there and fighting for centuries. Particularly the more powerful allies such as the forgotten and that oddbody group of misfits.

In terms of getting stuff done – sure, she didn’t score the killing blow, and wasn’t an effective combatant after she was blinded (but as described above, game mechanics can probably explain that) but as far as the story is concerned, she did quite a bit.

Frankly, even storyline wise, she just said “lets do this” and pushed most of the work onto someone else, particularly Dunkoro. He was the man that planned out nearly all of those “great ideas” and did the better decision making. (And frankly would have made a much better replacement too)

And once again, it’s not “OMG NPC got what I want/deserve”, it’s that NPC simply doesn’t deserve it. Aside from release Abaddon and choosing to go to war, Kormir’s impact was pretty weak.

Insulting people by saying their motivated by “petty jealousy” also isn’t the best way to make yourself convincing. Just an ad hominem to try to downplay and trivialize their objections.

Pennry.9215:

The problem I have with Trahearne was that he spent most of the time whining. “This won’t end well” seemed to be all he ever said. He moans when things don’t go exactly as he wants. This baffles me as to why every other NPC wanted him to be in charge. Why would one follow a whining, pessimistic brat? Then add in the fact that he comes out of nowhere, just some NPC telling you they know him..

I suspect the NPC that introduces you is just pawning him off on you and hoping he gets himself killed. He’s so annoying even the other NPCs can’t stand him.

SynfulChaot.3169:

Traveller.7496:

SynfulChaot.3169:

We don’t want that stuff. We want to play the game. Those charas are made to take those roles as, as a player, those rewards are not rewards at all.

I would have been satisfied that my character became a God after Nightfall or the Lord Commander of the Pact forces in GW2. Instead of, like, the best friend of the hero of the movie who gets the girl and you get her ugly cousin.

But if you did, what would you do? You’d be too busy for all that adventuring stuff. Your game would be over. Nothing more to do.

Those charas were created to take those roles to allow us players to keep enjoying the game. This is no single-player RPG where we beat it and the game is over. There is more to do after we win. But taking those roles would prevent that.

Not true at all. Much like the fable 3 story line, they could easily handle the day to day matters while we get the power/prestige that comes with it. Tre could simply say "You are the Head of the Pact, but I also know that only an adventurer like you can take the fight to the Dragons. I will work as your assistant and handle the more medial tasks, when you have need of my expertise I am at your command. "

In this way the player gets the ultimate reward, we are the ones that do all of the work, but doesn’t get saddled with the more mundane stuff.

GSSBlunaspike.4153:

SynfulChaot.3169:

But if you did, what would you do? You’d be too busy for all that adventuring stuff. Your game would be over. Nothing more to do.

Those charas were created to take those roles to allow us players to keep enjoying the game. This is no single-player RPG where we beat it and the game is over. There is more to do after we win. But taking those roles would prevent that.

Not true at all. Much like the fable 3 story line, they could easily handle the day to day matters while we get the power/prestige that comes with it. Tre could simply say "You are the Head of the Pact, but I also know that only an adventurer like you can take the fight to the Dragons. I will work as your assistant and handle the more medial tasks, when you have need of my expertise I am at your command. "

In this way the player gets the ultimate reward, we are the ones that do all of the work, but doesn’t get saddled with the more mundane stuff.

I’m sorry but that makes no sense to me. Just as it didn’t in Fable 3. Fable got away with it because that world is already silly and comical beyond relief. But in a more realistic take on fantasy it does not make sense for the leader of a giant military organization to spend that little time doing the planning/organization/leading.

The leader of an organization of that nature will always get saddled with the mundane stuff. That is their job. To lead.

For us to be the overall ‘leader’ and do none of the duties that come with the position is to make us terrible leaders. I’d rather be a great right-hand to a leader than a terrible leader.

SynfulChaot.3169:

GSSBlunaspike.4153:

SynfulChaot.3169:

But if you did, what would you do? You’d be too busy for all that adventuring stuff. Your game would be over. Nothing more to do.

Those charas were created to take those roles to allow us players to keep enjoying the game. This is no single-player RPG where we beat it and the game is over. There is more to do after we win. But taking those roles would prevent that.

Not true at all. Much like the fable 3 story line, they could easily handle the day to day matters while we get the power/prestige that comes with it. Tre could simply say "You are the Head of the Pact, but I also know that only an adventurer like you can take the fight to the Dragons. I will work as your assistant and handle the more medial tasks, when you have need of my expertise I am at your command. "

In this way the player gets the ultimate reward, we are the ones that do all of the work, but doesn’t get saddled with the more mundane stuff.

I’m sorry but that makes no sense to me. Just as it didn’t in Fable 3. Fable got away with it because that world is already silly and comical beyond relief. But in a more realistic take on fantasy it does not make sense for the leader of a giant military organization to spend that little time doing the planning/organization/leading.

The leader of an organization of that nature will always get saddled with the mundane stuff. That is their job. To lead.

For us to be the overall ‘leader’ and do none of the duties that come with the position is to make us terrible leaders. I’d rather be a great right-hand to a leader than a terrible leader.

The President of the United States is the Commander-in-chief of the United States Armed Forces. He does not do the mundane stuff though, instead he has people appointed that make those decisions for him. He gives input, and makes decisions on some things, but over all it’s handled by people under him with more expertise (usually).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_Two_of_the_United_States_Constitution#Section_2:_Presidential_powers
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commander-in-chief
(wiki could be wrong but it would seem from it that the Queen of England is their commander-in-chief even though they don’t have power. Something along those lines, sorry if I incorrectly stated that and offended someone.)

The leader of an organization of that nature will always get saddled with the mundane stuff. That is their job. To lead.

For us to be the overall ‘leader’ and do none of the duties that come with the position is to make us terrible leaders. I’d rather be a great right-hand to a leader than a terrible leader.

I think what you are missing out on is that a Leader is also a symbol. A symbol of strength, and courage in this case. The player is in the front lines, fighting along side these soldiers on a daily basis. The people doing the killing, and the ones getting killed, would know the player’s character.

The idea though that just because we are the leader we should be doing all of the work is wrong. As someone that has lead groups quite frequently I can tell you I don’t do all of the work. I assign it to the person I feel is best for that task. That is my role as the leader, my role isn’t to do everything. Those are specialist, my role is to identify who is best at an individual task and set them to it.

GSSBlunaspike.4153:

SynfulChaot.3169:

I’m sorry but that makes no sense to me. Just as it didn’t in Fable 3. Fable got away with it because that world is already silly and comical beyond relief. But in a more realistic take on fantasy it does not make sense for the leader of a giant military organization to spend that little time doing the planning/organization/leading.

The leader of an organization of that nature will always get saddled with the mundane stuff. That is their job. To lead.

For us to be the overall ‘leader’ and do none of the duties that come with the position is to make us terrible leaders. I’d rather be a great right-hand to a leader than a terrible leader.

The President of the United States is the Commander-in-chief of the United States Armed Forces. He does not do the mundane stuff though, instead he has people appointed that make those decisions for him. He gives input, and makes decisions on some things, but over all it’s handled by people under him with more expertise (usually).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_Two_of_the_United_States_Constitution#Section_2:_Presidential_powers

He still does far more than we would as players.

And what about now? Now that Zhaitan is gone, we have not interfaced with the Pact at all. Were we the leaders then that would make no sense from a storytelling perspective.

SynfulChaot.3169:

GSSBlunaspike.4153:

SynfulChaot.3169:

I’m sorry but that makes no sense to me. Just as it didn’t in Fable 3. Fable got away with it because that world is already silly and comical beyond relief. But in a more realistic take on fantasy it does not make sense for the leader of a giant military organization to spend that little time doing the planning/organization/leading.

The leader of an organization of that nature will always get saddled with the mundane stuff. That is their job. To lead.

For us to be the overall ‘leader’ and do none of the duties that come with the position is to make us terrible leaders. I’d rather be a great right-hand to a leader than a terrible leader.

The President of the United States is the Commander-in-chief of the United States Armed Forces. He does not do the mundane stuff though, instead he has people appointed that make those decisions for him. He gives input, and makes decisions on some things, but over all it’s handled by people under him with more expertise (usually).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_Two_of_the_United_States_Constitution#Section_2:_Presidential_powers

He still does far more than we would as players.

And what about now? Now that Zhaitan is gone, we have not interfaced with the Pact at all. Were we the leaders then that would make no sense from a storytelling perspective.

Um, that’s because the choice is taken from us as players. We fight all over the world to take down different aspects of the dragons. We have fought and killed the lieutenants, we have fought and killed various aspects of the dragons. What you are referring to is caused because of how the story is written. What’s being said is that the story makes no sense. Do you really think the pact is going to put someone in charge that the player has to even convince them is good enough to begin with? The players are the reason the pact follows tre, not because he’s some awesome leader. That awesome leader would be the players that have earned the respect of not only the three orders, but every race as well.

GSSBlunaspike.4153:

SynfulChaot.3169:

He still does far more than we would as players.

And what about now? Now that Zhaitan is gone, we have not interfaced with the Pact at all. Were we the leaders then that would make no sense from a storytelling perspective.

Um, that’s because the choice is taken from us as players. We fight all over the world to take down different aspects of the dragons. We have fought and killed the lieutenants, we have fought and killed various aspects of the dragons. What you are referring to is caused because of how the story is written. What’s being said is that the story makes no sense. Do you really think the pact is going to put someone in charge that the player has to even convince them is good enough to begin with? The players are the reason the pact follows tre, not because he’s some awesome leader. That awesome leader would be the players that have earned the respect of not only the three orders, but every race as well.

But for reasons explained in the storyline we are ineligible. In order for the pact to remain unified they needed someone not linked to any particular order to lead it. Otherwise they would be concerned of favoritism. We, as charas, are part of one of the orders. Thus the other two orders could not trust us from the get-go.

Thus Trahearne was nominated, and by the player no less. He was trusted by all and was not linked to any. And for the Orr campaign, this makes sense. Noone in the world of Tyria was more knowledgeable about Orr and Zhaitan than Trahearne.

Now whether he should remain in charge for further stuff … my hope is no. He did make sense against Zhaitan. He doesn’t make sense elsewhere. And now that the Pact has experience and has been around a while, it is possible that they can now trust a leader that comes from one of the orders. This opens it up to many.

Just one last thing that bothers me about Kiel:
Her ship was stolen from the Pact.

Not that I would expect LA to give back stolen goods, since it is a pirate city, but come on, we are talking about the Pact, not abou any regular citizen.

I wonder what would Trahearne think of this. Some of his ships were stolen, one of them was given to Kiel and his right arm and best friend is okay with this.

Navzar.2938:

It’s not “at first glance”, even if nightfall would have only been delayed, that doesn’t change the fact that she was an accomplice to the crime.

What you’re missing is that she wasn’t aware of the possible consequences of her actions. All she knew before going in was that the ruins had a bad reputation – she didn’t even know Abaddon existed. She beats herself up about not heeding that reputation at the Gate of Pain reputation, but think about it – how many stories are there where adventurers and archaeologists go into some ruin with a bad reputation, and the reputation purely comes down to “it’s dangerous in there” rather than “entering could break one of the seals holding back an apocalypse”? The Priory goes into dangerous ruins all the time – should they stop because one of those ruins might hold a key to unlocking an apocalypse that nobody except those working to bring about that apocalypse even knows is a possibility?

Abaddon was clearly touching the world beforehand – the first Titans arrived on Tyria two centuries before, the Fortune Teller manipulated Shiro two centuries before, and the aged General Kahyet has probably been a secret follower of Abaddon for longer than however long it had been since Kormir went into the ruins. At worst, Kormir accelerated the schedule a little. At best, it had no effect at all. Meanwhile, Kormir because the only person who had some clue what was going on that actually had any interest in stopping it, prompting her to expand the Sunspears…

She asked people for help, yes. That’s not very difficult to do or achieve. The physical recruiting, was also not her, and frankly just standard procedure for any military organization.

From the behaviour of the Kournans at the start of Nightfall, the recruitment of Sunspears at the start of the game is above normal levels, sufficient that Morgahn doesn’t feel Varesh is being overly paranoid by distrusting it.

Furthermore, while for us it’s just a couple of mouse-clicks, in the game world, traveling between the continents is a big deal. Somebody had to do it, or our Tyrian and Canthan characters would never have gotten involved. You may think it’s “easy”, but it’s still an important step to recognise that a problem is beyond the forces you have immediately available and to recruit more.

Not faulting her for this, but it doesn’t give her any credentials either. Even if someone had to bear the brunt of it for Elona, that doesn’t mean directly and deliberately walking into a known trap.

Sometimes, military realities require walking into a trap knowing that it’s a trap – and simply doing it knowingly rather than being caught by surprise is an advantage. Kormir was aware that time was too much of the essence for a long siege, and her force at the time consisted of the most elite regular army in Elona, possibly in the known world, bolstered by the most renowned heroes of Tyria and Cantha. She had confidence in the ability of her forces to deal with anything Varesh had, as long as they got to Varesh before Varesh completed the next stage of the ritual to weaken the barriers to the Realm of Torment. Unfortunately, they didn’t quite get there in time, but if the Sunspear army had been a little bit faster, Veresh might have been apprehended mid-ritual and Nightfall put off until the next cult wriggled their way into a position of sufficient power.
(character limit)

(continued)

Wrong! They were already there and fighting for centuries. Particularly the more powerful allies such as the forgotten and that oddbody group of misfits.

At the risk of sounding like a schoolyard argument: No, you’re wrong.

I wasn’t considering the Forgotten and their associated in that respect because they didn’t actually directly help much in defeating Abaddon. At the time we arrived, they were completely on the defensive, seeking only to hold onto their last remaining strongpoints as long as possible without any hope of defeating Abaddon. It’s Kormir that pushes to go on the offensive. It’s Kormir that dispatches scouting groups of Sunspear ghosts through the Realm of Torment looking for something that can be used as a weapon against Abaddon. It was one of those ghosts that found the Temple of the Six Gods. And it was ultimately through accessing the Temple of the Six Gods that Abaddon was undone.

Without Kormir’s contribution there, we would have spent our time in Torment holding the ramparts with the Forgotten against the unending tides of Abaddon’s minions until we were overwhelmed, just as happened to Ascalon under Adelbern.

Frankly, even storyline wise, she just said “lets do this” and pushed most of the work onto someone else, particularly Dunkoro. He was the man that planned out nearly all of those “great ideas” and did the better decision making. (And frankly would have made a much better replacement too)

The ability to delegate is an important leadership skill.

Insulting people by saying their motivated by “petty jealousy” also isn’t the best way to make yourself convincing. Just an ad hominem to try to downplay and trivialize their objections.

I’m calling it as I see it. The majority of Kormir syndrome posts I’ve seen basically boil down to “I hate this character because they got something and I didn’t.” That’s pretty much the definition of jealousy. You’re simply putting it in terms of “Kormir didn’t deserve this” rather than “I should have had it instead”, which is different, but I’ve seen, for instance, an Evon supporter proudly state that they’re supporting Evon because “If I can’t have it, neither can you” – and while I didn’t just look up the post, I can tell you that’s pretty close to a direct quote. And that’s textbook envy.

Actually kormir didn’t waked anything…
of course she digged up in Fahranur but If she didn’t so Sunspear didn’t know about apocrypha – and Khayet knew about him prety long…
and She would still made her way to him and everything would go as it was – but with that difference that sunspears wouldn’t be aware of anything until it was too late….

I wasn’t considering the Forgotten and their associated in that respect because they didn’t actually directly help much in defeating Abaddon.

You can say the same about kormir.

I’m calling it as I see it. The majority of Kormir syndrome posts I’ve seen basically boil down to “I hate this character because they got something and I didn’t.” That’s pretty much the definition of jealousy. You’re simply putting it in terms of “Kormir didn’t deserve this” rather than “I should have had it instead”, which is different, but I’ve seen, for instance, an Evon supporter proudly state that they’re supporting Evon because “If I can’t have it, neither can you” – and while I didn’t just look up the post, I can tell you that’s pretty close to a direct quote. And that’s textbook envy.

Someone else getting credit for the work you did is not jealousy. This is a common problem in America today. We have people who get money based off the hard work of others, and if you say anything it’s called “jealousy”. Not true, people simply want what they earn.

Your posts deals lots in hypothetical situations. Allow me to propose a few.

1) Kormir could have only found anything because the player was there to begin with.
2) It was the player that actually went to these places, and it was the player that did all of the hard work.
Based on those two alone it’s pretty clear that the player, even without Kormir, would have pushed further on and found the temple. In fact I think the reason that most of it was removed from the players hands (aside from lazy writting) was that the player would make good choices.

This has gotten away from the OP though. Pretty much the OP is right on, we constantly have people taking credit for the work we do. This isn’t new, and it won’t stop. It’s part of the same old bs in MMOs. “Oh we couldn’t give the player power, because that would..um…because…well you see….o.k. so um…if we did you guys would be bored…yeah that’s it”. No, it’s just lazy writing.

Next time let the player take over control, and give us second in command like Kor/Tre/Kiel/Evon*.

*best choice, he can get stuff done.

So…What I’ve gathered from this is pretty straightforward:

Instead of passively shifting responsibilities, we should be given the role, then have to defer it to a NPC when something (and something most certainly will) comes to our attention to be handled.

In the case of Kormir, we should have been granted the blessing and had the option to make ourselves the god/goddess, but had to grant it to Kormir instead. Or we took the godhood but had a Kratos moment wherein it is somehow stripped from us so we could have another game to play.

In the case of Ellen, we should’ve been set up under Magnus, and ordered Ellen off, then suggested her to take the role of council member instead of us because politics can shove it, we like blowing things up.

There, you’ve pulled all the strings, get the praise for it, and remained a crazy funloving adventurer.