Guild Wars 2

SynfulChaot.3169:

He asks for your advice, just as he relies on his other advisors. A good leader listens to his underlings. I see nothing wrong with this.

Yeah, agree to a point. If he is really as bad strategist as he is, leader made of one medicore speach and complitly useless in fights… why he’s advisors can’t kill him for a greater good? The cause will only gain on having strong leader… which Trahearne is not. He’s purpose was purely on cleansing the land of Orr – You don’t need to lead anything more than a bucket and mop with You to do that. An army is great overkill

SynfulChaot.3169:

Why can’t people understand that as players, we do not want what they’re getting!

aaand

If you had become a god, the game would be over. There would be nothing left for you to do.

Ok, one thing clear. If You don’t know how to resolve plot other way, it’s Your thing. Doesn’t matter to rest of us, so don’t say “we” – it’s just You.
Wanna example how to do it with player becoming a god? Sure. Let’s asume that after finishing off Abbadon, player and not Kormir become godly beeing. Made of magic yadda yadda yadda. We could be granted with small instanced area – simmilar to HoM or house instance in GW2 – our own godly realm to feel our awesome godlyness. Above that? We can spawn our avatar back into the world, to walk between mere mortals. Few OP PvE only skills – nothing to fancy, nothing that Anet haven’t done before. Something in line with the GW1 “Pain Inverter”. And that is it. Your godly beeing is transforming to full power in it’s own realm, and You still can roam Tyria with Your own avatar. Convinietly looking like Your old self etc.
Was it hard to come up with? Nope. Would it be hard to create? Nope – nothing that Anet can’t handle or done before. The only reason why Kormir is better suited to this role is fact, that this new god could appear in GW2. But that was not the issue wasn’t it?
Not that I want my character to become god – no no nope. I just find really silly statements like “we don’t want that” or “it can not be done”.

SynfulChaot.3169:

Neither Trahearne nor Kormir are gloryhogs. They didn’t ask for the positions they were given. The gods forced the gift upon Kormir. Us, the players, were the ones that recommended Trahearne to be the Marshal. Neither are/were vainglorious. Both were humble in their taking of the mantles.

Good point. Agree. On the other hand – it’s a cheap plot trick to save some trouble in the future. All this characters (Trahearne, Kormir, Rurik, Togo, Mhenlo to some point and especialy Ellen Kiel) share some resemblance in nature. They are boring and overwhelmed by a burden that doesn’t suit them. It was fun once, interesting twice – but old at third attempt. To have character that need to become hero against all odds on top of own nature – is great concept. Shame most of them never become hero, just rode on players back to greatness. Good idea, great concept, missed execution. What I miss in Guild Wars universe is really strong character – those who deserve to be followed. Conflicted – yes, maybe broken – sure, but worthy. At the moment most worthy are those who we are defeting. Vizier Khilbron, Shiro, Cannah is even more interesting than Ellen (by his own inner conflict and poor choice of action). Abbadon – the tragic god with sad ending. Few prominent members of white mantle – those corrupted or misslead. In whole GW univeres my favourite, best written (in my opinion) are those guys who we meet in GW:Beyond. War in Kryta and especially Winds of Change present us interesting NPCs.

SynfulChaot.3169:

I’ve not seen any of these NPCs be entirely useless and making things worse. Remember that not all they do you see. And if you pay attention to the storylines, they have been busy behind the scenes while we’re out being heroes. Busy doing important stuff.

Want example? From GW2 to make it easier. Braham and Rox in Molten Facility – they weren’t useless. Another? Warmaster in AC p3 while fighting Colossus Rumblus. They are not useless annoyance. Maybe they are not kings&queens of AI, and NPCs awareded with golden laur for depth personality, but they are decent in comparison to Ellen Kiel.
Agree on storyline point :P

SynfulChaot.3169:

She’s done a lot to deserve it. I’m not sure how you haven’t noticed any of it. Unless, of course, like most gamers you bypass all dialogue in the Living Story then ask why things don’t make sense.

Agree on disagree. Above fact that she was given information about den on silver platter, she did nothing above nothing more than riding players back. I don’t say it’s wrong or something – but look at Braham and Rox to see it can be done with more grace. So – if Flame&Frost is in same universe and in same line of storytelling, I can assume (like majority of players) that Ellen actually did nothing more than claim outcome of our deeds and talk in our name with some higher NPC figures. Let’s say You have one thing right – all she “did” was dialogue, so if someone skipped it, he/she skipped whole Kiel involvement.

DoctorOverlord.8620:

I saw Ellen Kiel actually going around reviving/healing members of my group when we ran the Aetherblade Retreat. She is the first NPC in the history of the Guild Wars universe who doesn’t think it’s cool to act like a suicidal chipmunk and spend most of any combat faceplanted on the ground.

Never saw that – maybe mine was broken or maybe… wait. I couldn’t witness that. My team was reviving her all the time, no one died if I reacall. But if she did that, it’s actually cool. Good to know.

GSSBlunaspike.4153:

This has gotten away from the OP though. Pretty much the OP is right on, we constantly have people taking credit for the work we do. This isn’t new, and it won’t stop. It’s part of the same old bs in MMOs. “Oh we couldn’t give the player power, because that would..um…because…well you see….o.k. so um…if we did you guys would be bored…yeah that’s it”. No, it’s just lazy writing.

And I can drink to that ^^

Finishing it with quote from our own Ellen Kiel “I’ve stood by the people of Lion’s Arch in good times and bad…” – where word “stood” carries the ultimate meaning of whole phrase.

I’m wondering why I even bother bringing in logic if it will just get ignored.

*sigh*

Oh. Right. Because people are dead set on single-player RPG storytelling in an MMO. And they want everything to be because of them.

SynfulChaot.3169:

I’m wondering why I even bother bringing in logic if it will just get ignored.

*sigh*

Oh. Right. Because people are dead set on single-player RPG storytelling in an MMO. And they want everything to be because of them.

lol
and now I’m wondering why I even bother with answering. No point when everything is answered with mithical magical power of logic that overwrite every argument.

Oh. Right. Because some people are dead set on legendary impassable MMO boundries that can not be crossed to not casue travel in time paradox. And they want everything to be trivial, because You know. 5th person with simillar background, character and narration is something to be expected from devs who have in their ranks some really amazing storytellers.

…did You even read what I wrote, or You gave up after first counterargument?

Wizzlock.3492:

SynfulChaot.3169:

I’m wondering why I even bother bringing in logic if it will just get ignored.

*sigh*

Oh. Right. Because people are dead set on single-player RPG storytelling in an MMO. And they want everything to be because of them.

lol
and now I’m wondering why I even bother with answering. No point when everything is answered with mithical magical power of logic that overwrite every argument.

Oh. Right. Because some people are dead set on legendary impassable MMO boundries that can not be crossed to not casue travel in time paradox. And they want everything to be trivial, because You know. 5th person with simillar background, character and narration is something to be expected from devs who have in their ranks some really amazing storytellers.

…did You even read what I wrote, or You gave up after first counterargument?

Yes. I read all of both posts. But it is not worth my time to refute each point one at a time. I have better things to do than try to discuss with someone who does not seem to have actually read the dialogues and understand that more goes on than we have directly seen in cutscenes.

SynfulChaot.3169:

Wizzlock.3492:

SynfulChaot.3169:

I’m wondering why I even bother bringing in logic if it will just get ignored.

*sigh*

Oh. Right. Because people are dead set on single-player RPG storytelling in an MMO. And they want everything to be because of them.

lol
and now I’m wondering why I even bother with answering. No point when everything is answered with mithical magical power of logic that overwrite every argument.

Oh. Right. Because some people are dead set on legendary impassable MMO boundries that can not be crossed to not casue travel in time paradox. And they want everything to be trivial, because You know. 5th person with simillar background, character and narration is something to be expected from devs who have in their ranks some really amazing storytellers.

…did You even read what I wrote, or You gave up after first counterargument?

Yes. I read all of both posts. But it is not worth my time to refute each point one at a time. I have better things to do than try to discuss with someone who does not seem to have actually read the dialogues and understand that more goes on than we have directly seen in cutscenes.

Perfect answer. Thank You for Your time then. However ironicly it sounds.

And please – for the future. Don’t try to tell someone what he saw, read – clearly or not. You may be heavily mistaken. Sounding arrogant, doesn’t make Your points more valid ^^

Wizzlock.3492:

SynfulChaot.3169:

Yes. I read all of both posts. But it is not worth my time to refute each point one at a time. I have better things to do than try to discuss with someone who does not seem to have actually read the dialogues and understand that more goes on than we have directly seen in cutscenes.

Perfect answer. Thank You for Your time then. However ironicly it sounds.

And please – for the future. Don’t try to tell someone what he saw, read – clearly or not. You may be heavily mistaken. Sounding arrogant, doesn’t make Your points more valid ^^

I’m not saying you didn’t. I said that it does not seem you did. Distinction.

SynfulChaot.3169:

Wizzlock.3492:

SynfulChaot.3169:

Yes. I read all of both posts. But it is not worth my time to refute each point one at a time. I have better things to do than try to discuss with someone who does not seem to have actually read the dialogues and understand that more goes on than we have directly seen in cutscenes.

Perfect answer. Thank You for Your time then. However ironicly it sounds.

And please – for the future. Don’t try to tell someone what he saw, read – clearly or not. You may be heavily mistaken. Sounding arrogant, doesn’t make Your points more valid ^^

I’m not saying you didn’t. I said that it does not seem you did. Distinction.

Distinct how much You want – point was clear, point was taken

Shiren.9532:

For those who don’t know, Kormir is the 6th human god, but she wasn’t always a god. She was once an allied NPC of the player in GW1 who let the player do all the work while she received the ultimate reward. If you’d like to know more, this video explains it all:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxmkAoLC6_4

I was just watching that video… creepy… 0_0

Still, I have to agree, Kiel really does come across as someone who just makes us do all the dirty work and then claims all the credit. If she was on the Council, she wouldn’t even acknowledge us or even give us any form of power. At least Trahearne made us a Commander and at least got his hands dirty by actually fighting along side you (even if he does kinda take all the credit >_>;)

draxynnic.3719:

Sometimes, military realities require walking into a trap knowing that it’s a trap – and simply doing it knowingly rather than being caught by surprise is an advantage.

This is true, but it’s not what Kormir did. She walked into a trap knowing it was a trap, but didn’t inform anyone else or making extra preperations, so the enemy still have the surprise as an advantage. Furthermore, there was nothing to indicates she expected her army to get there before Varesh finished her demon summoning ritual. She spoke of taking the brunt of that attack, meaning she fully intended to be hit by it.

The ability to delegate is an important leadership skill.

Yes, but the problem is she delegated nearly everything, letting Dunkoro make the decisions and much the actual leading to player character. She didn’t even make changes for relying on different people situationaly, it was just “This is your position, so you’re the one who handles it”, so she left it to the default guy in charge of it anyway.

Yes, that does mean she’s completely useless. She did do some important things like getting us helping convince elders for more naval support, but overall she was just a semi important background character in terms of how much she aided the effort.

As for the comment about the “Should the Priory stop exploring dungeons because they may contain danger” thing, the Priory is searching for knowledge to combat the elder dragons, whereas Kormir was searching a reputably dangerous place just out of curiosity.

As for the problem with the “why don’t people accept my logic thing”: 1) logic is not universal, your logic may suggest something completely different from someone else’s logic, and logic can be flawed 2)Most of the support for her actions were also along the lines of “because the plot requires her to be a great leader, everything she did must have been good” type though.3)most of of what I’ve seen argued was things like “but the gods chose her, so she must deserve it”, and the famous “you can’t be a god”, implying that there was only one alternative to Kormir becoming a god.
Many others say things logically too, just because you don’t agree with them doesn’t mean your opinions are the logical ones.

That video cracked me up! It made me yearn for Nightfall and the others like Koss and Meloni. Even General Morgahn and the old Master of Secrets, I miss them all.

I actually liked Kormir a lot, but I didn’t care much for Trahearne, nor do I like Kiel. Maybe I was just so caught up in the awesome story that was Nightfall to notice any of Kormir’s flaws. I don’t know, there were just so many great characters in that game it didn’t matter to me.

At least Kormir gave us some insight into what the Gods might be, and I liked her as a leader.

But Trahearne…he was fairly weak. I just…didn’t care about him all that much. I can’t explain why. Kiel is so stereotypical and lame, I’m just waiting for her to get pushed to the side for a more interesting character. I’m not buying into that tough girl act. >:(

Or better yet an ensemble of characters that doesn’t include whiny, sarcastic windbags who can’t take anything seriously.

…I’ve not been following the living story very closely, so correct me if I’m wrong, but has Evon been in our way throughout them? If not, couldn’t this be viewed as an opportunity to dock Ellen, so she’s not accompanying us and as some here like to say, stealing our glory?

Just a thought. I have no idea whether that may be the case, and probably won’t be too heavily involved in any of this as it heats up, so it doesn’t concern me that much.

Gmr Leon.1846:

…I’ve not been following the living story very closely, so correct me if I’m wrong, but has Evon been in our way throughout them? If not, couldn’t this be viewed as an opportunity to dock Ellen, so she’s not accompanying us and as some here like to say, stealing our glory?

Just a thought. I have no idea whether that may be the case, and probably won’t be too heavily involved in any of this as it heats up, so it doesn’t concern me that much.

Actually if that would be truth, I would find first good reason to vote for her

SynfulChaot.3169:

The leader of an organization of that nature will always get saddled with the mundane stuff. That is their job. To lead.

That is how it works in reality, the only problem is the game is supposed to be presenting an epic story about heroes.

For example in Star Trek, there is no good reason for the captain to end up on away missions. Yet Kirk always does it and even Picard, Sisko, Janeway and Archer all ended up getting in the action even with subordinates like Riker who are supposed to fill that role. You never saw King Theoden in LotR dealing with organizing supply lines or figuring out unit organization because that would be bloody boring. Just as his story would be far more boring if he just sat back in this throne sending out troops.

Also this is a video game. There is not a single modern combat FPS game that has ever done a ‘realistic’ portrayal of the actual duties of soldiers, even the elite ones, because it would involve lots of organization, preparation and waiting around rather than the exciting stuff of going around shooting stuff.

Saying that a leader can’t get involved in the action is not a good excuse for a video game (or a fantasy or even science fiction story) where it’s expected to be able to skip over or completely ignored the dull parts that reality requires.

Gmr Leon.1846:

In the case of Ellen, we should’ve been set up under Magnus, and ordered Ellen off, then suggested her to take the role of council member instead of us because politics can shove it, we like blowing things up.

There, you’ve pulled all the strings, get the praise for it, and remained a crazy funloving adventurer.

All the action is the same but your suggestion is a subtle difference in how the actions are presented to the characters. Are the players just peons who could easily be replaced by some other faceless adventurer or are they someone who is making the important decisions and the only one who can actually accomplish what needs to be done?

It is easy to see how MMOs fall into the trap of presenting storylines where characters are just inter-changeable fodder, because let’s face it, in truth that is what they are Warrior X needs to be able to be replaced by Thief Y and the story is being repeated millions of times.

MMOs stories have to present their story so that it hides that fact of the gameplay. I think City of Heroes did a pretty good job at it. NPCs would come to characters for help and never take the spotlight from the characters. NPCs were usually in trouble (as they should be for a superhero story). The stories seemed have the feeling that your character was the only one who could do the job.

Even in City of Villains where you were a follower of the Big Bad Lord Recluse, you had the feeling you were building schemes against him even while being presented as character that was important to the plots.

Maybe CoH/V did is so well because their stories were meant to get a comic book feel where the hero is afterall the focus. I don’t see why this can’t be applied to fantasy stories in MMOs.