Guild Wars 2

ChaosKirin.1328:

Okay, that sounds like a decent character. So what about Scarlet is radically different so that she’s a bad character?

The difference is that you really have to stretch believability in order to swallow everything related to Scarlet, whether it be her actions or backstory.

A few examples:

- Why do her dredge, flame legion, krait and nightmare court armies seem to pledge complete and undying loyalty to her? Aren’t there any internal power struggles? Betrayals? No? Why not? They have been bullied, pushed around, manipulated, lied to or led into slaughter. Why aren’t any of them upset and why aren’t any of them fighting back?

- Some of the alliances don’t make any sense in the first place. The Nightmare Court have absolutely no reason to ally with Scarlet, let alone the Krait, or at least none that’s been explained in any detail. The Krait allying with Scarlet sort of made sense because Scarlet promised them a prophet, but now that Scarlet has failed to deliver their prophet to them (due to the players killing it), why are they still blindly following her?

- As far as has been revealed to us, the Aetherblades are only allied with Scarlet because she “threatened to kill them”. In exchange, they have pledged their undying loyalty and their entire fleet of airships to her, not to mention allowing her to use them in any way she wishes, even if it results in them getting wholesale slaughtered. Really? Does this make sense? She apparently had the Aetherblades wrapped around her finger even before she acquired her army clockwork soldiers, so what means did she have at her disposal to threaten to kill them all? And if she had some means of killing them all, that would be a pretty powerful weapon. Why would she need clockwork soldiers or a mega-toxin in the first place? Furthermore, now that she can manifest UFO-style portals in the air that drop giant robots out of the sky, why does she even need the Aetherblades or their ships anymore? Why doesn’t she just drop one marionette on Lion’s Arch and be done with it?

- The fact that she’s a Sylvari that has graduated from all of the colleges at Rata Sum (which is apparently a feat that not even a single Asura has accomplished) is preposterous. The Asura are insular, racist, and supremacist. The only explanation we’ve been given so far as to why they let her do this was that “they were studying her”. Really? A race of super geniuses would grant a self-serving outsider access to their race’s best-kept secrets just so they could study her? And after the fact they let her get away? Why? Why make an exception for her? It doesn’t make sense.

- The fact that she traipsed around the globe and studied with willing teachers at the Black Citadel is equally preposterous. The Charr are just as wary of outsiders as the Asura are. Studying at Hoelbrak is a bit more feasible, but really… What are the chances of anybody studying at Rata Sum, The Black Citadel, Hoelbrak and with the Inquest all within a short time? She’s not a firstborn, so she’s in her early twenties. The Wiki says she stayed in the grove for eight years, so that only gives her about twelve years to earn these degrees, which seems implausible on its own. Then she ends up passing Statics and Dynamics within a single year. Really? If that’s the case, she’d be a freaking celebrity; the Einstein of Tyria, if you will. But we didn’t hear ANYTHING about her before she appeared suddenly at the Queen’s Jubilee. Why not?

- Logistics: Where did the Krait and Nightmare court acquire the lumber to build the Tower of Nightmares? If there’s a legitimate answer, why didn’t anybody notice the forests were disappearing en masse? Where did she get the raw materials for the marionette? Who mined them? Who assembled it? If she assembled it all on her own, that means she has godlike powers that no other character in the entire game has had aside from the Six Gods themselves, and is preposterous. If her allies assembled it, wouldn’t that take a long time? And after all that work, why would they test it in an unpopulated area instead of unleashing it on Scarlet’s true target (Lion’s Arch)?

- The Durmand Priory, who are specialists at acquiring knowledge, failed to notice that Scarlet had a secret lair right under their feet. Seriously?

It comes down to the fact that there are too many leaps of faith required to take the character seriously. When people refer to her as a “Mary Sue”, what they mean is she’s a character with no flaws and seemingly limitless power just for the sake of having it. She’s super powerful, super intelligent, super witty, super sexy, and does not appear to have any flaws other than this gnawing entity that is manipulating her – but of course, that’s not her fault.

I could go on and on, but unfortunately the character limit for these posts is 5000 and I don’t feel like spamming this thread any more than I already have on this subject.

ChaosKirin.1328

I get this feeling that if Scarlet were male, no one would have a problem with her at all.

Trahearne is also a bad character for similar reasons, Scarlet just manages to be far worse.

PeterThomas.7243:

- Logistics: Where did the Krait and Nightmare court acquire the lumber to build the Tower of Nightmares? If there’s a legitimate answer, why didn’t anybody notice the forests were disappearing en masse?

Just to answer this question, actually you could find a cut out forest in Kessex Hills near the lake some time before the patch.

PeterThomas, I believe I’m seeing your point, having re-read your posts. I’m guessing that, in answer to what I believe you are saying is a poorly integrated Living Story, it was just too big, too much, to integrate every aspect of the existing world with the new content. I’m talking about mob AI, existing quests, the ‘atmospere’ of the surroundings. It’s a valid complaint but that’s a daunting task. We already have this with the implementation of dungeons in just about every MMO currently out there – honestly, anyone invading a sentient area would have one huge fight 10 feet inside the doors once word travelled back that there were invaders. Not the ‘fight as you go’, where you can plainly see mobs in view, waiting around for us to ‘get to them’. So, I believe that your comment about the Living Story not contributing to making the world a living, breathing world, as I stated (defending my initial premise ) is more a matter of how far do you take the ‘ripple effect’ of something happening and the ripple it causes to the surroundings.

To a large extent, the first issue that comes up is how far o you change the experience of the area for those that have never been there before, have never done the quests. You have to, at some physical point, draw the line and say that beyond this line, the rest of the world will largely be unaffected. That the line is a hard line and too close to the LS event for you doesn’t necessarily reflect on whether that removes the living world aspect of the game. It’s a balance trying to define what the world looks like with the LS in it versus what it looked like before – playability, depth of existing storylines, etc. The worst thing that could happen, from an ANet marketing standpoint, is to lure new players (and accounts!) into a world that has changed completely from what it was at launch – to bring them into an ongoing story in which they’ve lost the opportunity to experience older content. Again, creating a constently engaging, fair, cohesive world with every patch is daunting. You have to draw the lines, create the ‘bubbles of consequences’, so to speak, and leave the rest of the existing world ‘as is’ for now, it’s fate ‘to be determined at a later date’.

I will defer on your commentary of Scarlett – I think you know more about her than I do. Actually, I’m sure you do. But for my opinion, I’m entertained by the whole story arc to this point and for me that’s enough.

Hell yes I want this!
I want to play an mmo that feels more alive.
I don’t want the same tree, the same npc and the same quest to be in the same exact place everytime I pass with any of my characters. I still feel that not everyone has to have the exact same experience in an mmo.
Wouldn’t it be cool if a new player came along stating what a nice place this or that village or castle is and another player will aknowledge this but will also state that it was a long and hard fight before <random bad guys> got defeated and they could finally start rebuilding the place

This is a step-by-step evolution in which the players play a big part and I for one can’t wait!
not like a certain other mmo where the world changed over night when a certain expansion came out.

The content has been pretty good as of late, but i wonder why Anet is so determined to make a’’living story’’ when their story telling is by far the weakest part of the game. I dont want to be mean but everytime you hear dialog in the game it is cringe worthy <.<

Ontopic though i am excited to see how Lions Arch will look like soon :P

ChaosKirin.1328:

There is no difference between her and any other villain that has ever existed, except that she’s female.

Really? Did you really just play the gender card? Wow. That’s…well, I’ll just leave that one alone.

ChaosKirin.1328:

Being a powerful woman does not automatically make you a bad character/Mary Sue/retcon bait. In fact, I applaud ANet for making the main villain female, rather than yet another male villain.

No, being a poorly written character makes her a bad character and possessing traits normal characters can only dream of makes her a Mary Sue. You’re applauding ANet for writing a bad character and patting yourself and them on the back under the misguided notion that we’re all a bunch of sexists and you guys are fighting the good fight for women’s rights. That’s just sad.

ChaosKirin.1328:

And I bet if a good portion of the people mentally rewrote her character as male, they would have no problem with her.

I did re-imagine her as a male. You know what she looked like? Dr. Klaw. “I’ll get you next time, Gadget!” Congratulations, you just solidified Scarlet as a Saturday morning cartoon villain. Saturday morning cartoon villains are NOT well-written characters.

ChaosKirin.1328:

Okay, that sounds like a decent character. So what about Scarlet is radically different so that she’s a bad character?

She’s a sylvari who wants more knowledge. She goes to the knowledge capital of EVERYTHING (AKA Rata Sum) and makes her way through all three colleges

You just answered your own question in the very next sentence. There are plenty of other examples, of course, but we don’t need to go any further than this. You claim she isn’t a Mary Sue, then you defend your stance with Exhibit A in the case of her being a Mary Sue.

i’m glad i knew enough to skip several thousand lines of text when someone typed “I get this feeling that if Scarlet were male, no one would have a problem with her at all.”

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

Berethor.6142:

“So I guess my question is, do “I” really want this? " first off fixed that for you, I love the scarlet character, if you had done the quest they put up for this event and you actually listened to the “information” that has been collected by the detective you work with you would have noticed by now they are making scarlet out to be the GW2 version of Moriarty from Sherlock, I love that show and absolutely love the idea of them putting that type of character in an MMO for me to fight.
.

Do you know how deeply you just insulted Arthur Conan Doyle?

I just want to touch on this. Moriarty’s sole and only purpose was to kill Holmes. Doyle had become tired of writing the adventures and had wanted to find a way to kill off Holmes, but he found it hard because at this point Holmes had become too established at being good at everything. Therefore, Doyle wrote in a villain who had no real backstory or connection but was somehow just as good at everything as Holmes in order to kill both characters off.

Neither Holmes nor Moriarty was supposed to continue beyond this, if you read the writings around Doyle at the time. There’s evidence to support this from independent interviews written then.

I would. I would like for changes to stick. But I have this feeling that in a couple of patches LA will be rebuilt which is sad.

I much prefer a sense of permanency than rebild-same-as-before-no-one-would-even-know-something-happened.

I am rooting for LA ruins but since it is a city and a city is just to use for its bank/TP/vendors/crafting it will not make sense to keep it in ruins.

Im all for it. Makes the game feel more alive or in this case the living world.

Ya’ll seem to forget that when Orr rose it destroyed Lions Arch. But they rebuilt out of the parts that were left. When the King of Kryta surrounded LA and demanded unconditional surrender to the Krytan state what happened? The people of Lions Arch stood together and fought the Krytans and the undead armada that came from Orr…AT THE SAME TIME. They took the ships that they used to build homes and shops with and rebuilt ships and sailed to an epic victory! The people of lions arch are used to being attacked and will come out on top. Its that unity that they all share that makes them an unrelenting force to be reckoned with. It may take a while, but Lions Arch WILL recover.

Having played GW1 and GW2 since their betas, I’m not happy to see LA fall. LA is an integral part of Tyria to me. Hopefully another “Cobiah Marriner” comes along and rebuilds it again.

I don’t go to Kessex Hills anymore since it was ruined. And like several other posters I will probably not visit LA much either. It seems the more we go along this LS road, the less I visit Tyria.

mjhungness.8059:

PeterThomas, I believe I’m seeing your point, having re-read your posts. I’m guessing that, in answer to what I believe you are saying is a poorly integrated Living Story, it was just too big, too much, to integrate every aspect of the existing world with the new content. I’m talking about mob AI, existing quests, the ‘atmospere’ of the surroundings. It’s a valid complaint but that’s a daunting task.

It wouldn’t be a daunting task if they gave themselves enough time to properly develop the content, instead of sticking to this 2-week release treadmill. I know the development teams supposedly have 4 months before they release, but they’ve been quoted as saying they barely have enough time to release the content, let alone test it – and that’s not a good thing.

If we had proper expansion material that was implemented on a larger scale we wouldn’t have these problems. And the content could be more engaging, more immersive and more integrated.

mjhungness.8059:

The worst thing that could happen, from an ANet marketing standpoint, is to lure new players (and accounts!) into a world that has changed completely from what it was at launch – to bring them into an ongoing story in which they’ve lost the opportunity to experience older content. Again, creating a constently engaging, fair, cohesive world with every patch is daunting.

Actually the worst that can happen is the alienation new and casual players, which I’ve seen firsthand. The Toxic Offshoot events in Queensdale, for example, were absolutely impossible for level 10 players to complete even in a small group. Why? Because those events are not designed for level 10’s, they’re designed for level 80’s who are revisiting the area. But new players don’t know that. I’ve seen new players get very confused and frustrated at the sudden spike in difficulty, not to mention the fact that the Toxic Offshoots don’t correspond to any story element they’ve encountered so far (like, “where the hell did THESE things come from?”). And of course they may have missed all the previous content that explains their origin, and because that content is temporary, they have no hope of EVER experiencing the full story. It breaks immersion, breaks the story, gives preferential treatment to hardcore players and it’s just plain sloppy.

darkace.8925:

ChaosKirin.1328:

And I bet if a good portion of the people mentally rewrote her character as male, they would have no problem with her.

I did re-imagine her as a male. You know what she looked like? Dr. Klaw. “I’ll get you next time, Gadget!” Congratulations, you just solidified Scarlet as a Saturday morning cartoon villain. Saturday morning cartoon villains are NOT well-written characters.

LOL… Well put.

ChaosKirin.1328:

I get this feeling that if Scarlet were male, no one would have a problem with her at all.

I mean, she’s the equivalent to many other male characters that have stormed across canons in the past. The Joker is mentioned in that massively article. She is like the Reavers in Firefly – at first, no reason is given for their existence, but people are terrified of them nevertheless. She’s Crais from Farscape. John Locke from LOST. Sephiroth from Final Fantasy VII. Magneto from the X-Men.

There is no difference between her and any other villain that has ever existed, except that she’s female.

Being a powerful woman does not automatically make you a bad character/Mary Sue/retcon bait. In fact, I applaud ANet for making the main villain female, rather than yet another male villain.

And I bet if a good portion of the people mentally rewrote her character as male, they would have no problem with her.

Or maybe we could let opinionated gender bias sit this one out. Let’s not forget that most of the NPC protagonists in this game are also female.

The Joker was mentioned because he is an example of a great execution of a ‘chaotic’ villain.

As someone else mentioned, Varresh Ossa from GW: Nightfall was a fantastic villain. I bought that she was a powerful ruler and competent military tactician. From the exposition I could tell that something was amiss with Kourna and Ossa. She had a strong backstory behind her (and her name) and her descent into madness was also believable. None of her skills and actions seemed far fetched.

Her plan to bring back Abaddon was alluded to in the starter quests for NF characters. Exposition from Mhenlo and Co. for non-NF characters also hinted to what was to come. It was a gradual buildup that developed the story into something the players could care about from the start. Did we know exactly how she was planning to bring back the lost God? Nope. But we did know she was involved in it and for much of the story she was the main antagonist.

She didn’t have to be trained by the Kurz stonesingers and Imperial swordsmen. She didn’t have to learn spells from the mages of Nolani. She didn’t have to have ascended in the desert (conveniently sometime before we did). She was already an imposing foe as the ruler of a powerful military nation and a seasoned fighter in her own right. Add to that her powers granted by Abaddon and his tormented creatures? Yes, she was a great villain without being cheesy in any way.

They even had the character of Morgan as her 2nd in command who we could see from the start realizing that she wasn’t the person she once was. All of that together made it enjoyable to play through.
———————————————————————————————————————————————-
Now imagine there was no boxed game called GW: Nightfall. Imagine there were no quests with exposition or missions to provide the context of her actions. Imagine that the first thing you did was repel the tormented attack on LA as a non-NF character. Then you go to Kamadan and the Sun Docks. Then fight the Kournans and Varresh but are not shown the Abaddon statue. Imagine the demons don’t come to he aid. She just gets away and that’s that. Despite you defeating her fortress. That encounter doesn’t really tell you much does it?

Kanto.1659:

I would. I would like for changes to stick. But I have this feeling that in a couple of patches LA will be rebuilt which is sad.

I much prefer a sense of permanency than rebild-same-as-before-no-one-would-even-know-something-happened.

I am rooting for LA ruins but since it is a city and a city is just to use for its bank/TP/vendors/crafting it will not make sense to keep it in ruins.

I am kind of like you. I would actually like to see LA rebuilt, but do it over the next year and let it slowly grow and come back. Don’t just do it two weeks after you made the effort to blow it to smithereens! If it is two patches later, I will be disappointed too.

Xukavi.4320:

This interview: http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/02/11/prepare-to-escape-from-lions-arch-in-guild-wars-2s-next-conten/

They basically stated that all services that were important are being moved to the vigil keep and PS story entrances will be done through a new entrance.

You missed a spot in the interview…

All essential services that are unique to Lion’s Arch will be redirected to Vigil Keep for the time being, including Asura gates to other cities, Fractals of the Mists, and incarcerated cactus-faced troublemakers.

“For the time being”= temporary change

ChaosKirin.1328:

I get this feeling that if Scarlet were male, no one would have a problem with her at all.

I mean, she’s the equivalent to many other male characters that have stormed across canons in the past. The Joker is mentioned in that massively article. She is like the Reavers in Firefly – at first, no reason is given for their existence, but people are terrified of them nevertheless. She’s Crais from Farscape. John Locke from LOST. Sephiroth from Final Fantasy VII. Magneto from the X-Men.

There is no difference between her and any other villain that has ever existed, except that she’s female.

Being a powerful woman does not automatically make you a bad character/Mary Sue/retcon bait. In fact, I applaud ANet for making the main villain female, rather than yet another male villain.

And I bet if a good portion of the people mentally rewrote her character as male, they would have no problem with her.

I think your personal biases are clouding your views here.

PeterThomas.7243:

most of what Scarlet’s been up to has stretched the limits of believability even for a fantasy game where we have magic and monsters.

This makes no sense at all, those two phrases don’t even belong in the same sentence, "has stretched limits of believability " , “for a fantasy game where we have magic and monsters”

noun: magic
1. the power of apparently influencing the course of events by using mysterious or supernatural forces.

Its MAGIC, it doesn’t always make sense that’s why we call it magic and not science.

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

Berethor.6142:

“So I guess my question is, do “I” really want this? " first off fixed that for you, I love the scarlet character, if you had done the quest they put up for this event and you actually listened to the “information” that has been collected by the detective you work with you would have noticed by now they are making scarlet out to be the GW2 version of Moriarty from Sherlock, I love that show and absolutely love the idea of them putting that type of character in an MMO for me to fight.
.

Do you know how deeply you just insulted Arthur Conan Doyle?

First he’s dead its hard to be insulted when you don’t breathe anymore. Secondly I didn’t say she was THE Moriarty, GW2 would have to spend more time and people than they have to make that character perfectly and do the back story it deserves, but as I said in an MMO setting its nice to get to fight a character who is similar to M especially given the lines they drew between the characters with the last little LS event/quest.

ChaosKirin.1328:

(She’s like) Sephiroth from Final Fantasy VII.

You mean one of the worst villains in video game history with the dullest backstory and the flimsiest motivation to be evil? I don’t think you understand what a good villain is.

Awe.1096:

I understand what AreneNet is trying to do but IMO they should leave things like LA or Kessex Hills alone and focus on opening new uncharted areas on the world map. Oh well…

Quoted for truth!

Berethor.6142:

PeterThomas.7243:

most of what Scarlet’s been up to has stretched the limits of believability even for a fantasy game where we have magic and monsters.

This makes no sense at all, those two phrases don’t even belong in the same sentence, "has stretched limits of believability " , “for a fantasy game where we have magic and monsters”

noun: magic
1. the power of apparently influencing the course of events by using mysterious or supernatural forces.

Its MAGIC, it doesn’t always make sense that’s why we call it magic and not science.

I am sorry, but you are so wrong here it hurts. First, even a fantasy setting and fantasy story need to be internally consistent. If it’s not, they are not a setting or story at all, but only an incoherent babbling. Second, the fact that “mysterious or supernatural forces” exist doesn’t mean those are not also bound by their own rules. While those rules are often more nebulous and less clear-cut than we’re used to with scientific aproach, they generally do exist (if there are no rules at all, it’s generally a mark of a bad writing). As far as we know the magic in GW2 is not one of such “no rules” cases, and does have rules and limitations. While exceptions are still possible, too many of those (or too big ones) just devalue the rest of the setting. And third, the sentence “stretches the limits of believability” is always relevant to any story, regardless of how magical or weird it would be. Basically, the story needs to make sense, needs to be relatable by the reader. If it doesn’t, then it doesn’t, and all waving the “it’s magic” card around accomplishes is to make it even more senseless.
Besides, most of the logical inconsistences in the Scarlet story are not connected with magic at all.

TL/DR: “Magic” in a story doesn’t mean you can forget about sense and logic.

Astralporing.1957:

I am sorry, but you are so wrong here it hurts. First, even a fantasy setting and fantasy story need to be internally consistent. If it’s not, they are not a setting or story at all, but only an incoherent babbling. Second, the fact that “mysterious or supernatural forces” exist doesn’t mean those are not also bound by their own rules. While those rules are often more nebulous and less clear-cut than we’re used to with scientific aproach, they generally do exist (if there are no rules at all, it’s generally a mark of a bad writing). As far as we know the magic in GW2 is not one of such “no rules” cases, and does have rules and limitations. While exceptions are still possible, too many of those (or too big ones) just devalue the rest of the setting. And third, the sentence “stretches the limits of believability” is always relevant to any story, regardless of how magical or weird it would be. Basically, the story needs to make sense, needs to be relatable by the reader. If it doesn’t, then it doesn’t, and all waving the “it’s magic” card around accomplishes is to make it even more senseless.
Besides, most of the logical inconsistences in the Scarlet story are not connected with magic at all.

TL/DR: “Magic” in a story doesn’t mean you can forget about sense and logic.

The Elder Dragons are ancient, powerful beings of unknown origins. They keep the magic balanced by consuming it and drawing it into themselves; though indications show that this isn’t their goal or intention, but rather a side-effect of how they function. Every several thousand years (roughly 10,000 years according to the Durmand Priory), the dragons wake and consume everything in the world, thereby reducing the world to a low level of magic, before going back to sleep. Then the magic they have consumed bleeds out into the world, harmless unlike when they’re awake, only for the dragons to eventually awaken once more and the cycle to begin again

This basically says the Magic is unbalanced and dangerous right now.

Also, I can’t think of one thing that has magic involved and makes sense. Magic defies logic. That’s the purpose of it.

@PeterThomas.7243

I got the perfect answer to all of your questions: magic!

I mean – seriously. It’s a fantasy game …

Astralporing.1957:

Berethor.6142:

PeterThomas.7243:

most of what Scarlet’s been up to has stretched the limits of believability even for a fantasy game where we have magic and monsters.

This makes no sense at all, those two phrases don’t even belong in the same sentence, "has stretched limits of believability " , “for a fantasy game where we have magic and monsters”

noun: magic
1. the power of apparently influencing the course of events by using mysterious or supernatural forces.

Its MAGIC, it doesn’t always make sense that’s why we call it magic and not science.

I am sorry, but you are so wrong here it hurts. First, even a fantasy setting and fantasy story need to be internally consistent. If it’s not, they are not a setting or story at all, but only an incoherent babbling. Second, the fact that “mysterious or supernatural forces” exist doesn’t mean those are not also bound by their own rules. While those rules are often more nebulous and less clear-cut than we’re used to with scientific aproach, they generally do exist (if there are no rules at all, it’s generally a mark of a bad writing). As far as we know the magic in GW2 is not one of such “no rules” cases, and does have rules and limitations. While exceptions are still possible, too many of those (or too big ones) just devalue the rest of the setting. And third, the sentence “stretches the limits of believability” is always relevant to any story, regardless of how magical or weird it would be. Basically, the story needs to make sense, needs to be relatable by the reader. If it doesn’t, then it doesn’t, and all waving the “it’s magic” card around accomplishes is to make it even more senseless.
Besides, most of the logical inconsistences in the Scarlet story are not connected with magic at all.

TL/DR: “Magic” in a story doesn’t mean you can forget about sense and logic.

“the fact that “mysterious or supernatural forces” exist doesn’t mean those are not also bound by their own rules. "

Having rules exist and knowing what those rules are and what they do are not the same thing. I’m not saying there are no rules, I’m saying they are not explained or defined in enough detail to say state a fact based on those rules, meaning you can’t say “X is impossible” without having the rulebook available that applies to X. And you make this point for me with this line "As far as we know the magic in GW2 is not one of such “no rules” cases…"

“And third, the sentence “stretches the limits of believability” is always relevant to any story"

LOL go read the dark tower series, if that doesn’t “stretch(es) the limits of believability” every third or fourth paragraph, I don’t know what does, and it is an amazing series considered by many to be the some of if not the best work in its genre. On a side note “believability” stretches as far as your imagination is willing to let it.

“needs to be relatable by the reader.”
I have never lived through or met someone who has lived through a city being attacked by pirates in flying ships with guns that shoot fires balls who decided to fire bomb a public holiday being held in said city. I have also never defended my hometown from an invasion of mechanical monsters, flying pirates or giant magically inclined, mechanically modified rats(yes I’m talking about the Dredge/Flame Legion here) Further more I have never teamed up with a detective to track down and apprehend the master mind who arranged the previously described events. However, that fact did not stop me from enjoying the LS quests where exactly that happens.

Berethor.6142:

This makes no sense at all, those two phrases don’t even belong in the same sentence, "has stretched limits of believability " , “for a fantasy game where we have magic and monsters”

Its MAGIC, it doesn’t always make sense that’s why we call it magic and not science.

Astralporing pretty much summed up what I mean:

Astralporing.1957:

…even a fantasy setting and fantasy story need to be internally consistent.

Based on what the game has provided us to be true so far, Scarlet and the living story are breaking all of those rules in highly noticeable ways.

It would be like if Anakin Skywalker got angry and made a planet explode with his mind. In Star Wars we know that the force is powerful, but that would be a bit over the top. That kind of crap only happens in Dragon Ball, where beings of such power are established to exist (not that I’m defending the feasibility of what goes on in Dragon Ball mind you, but it’s just an example).

Feothyr.6072:

I got the perfect answer to all of your questions: magic!

I mean – seriously. It’s a fantasy game …

Okay, fine. Anything can happen for any reason and nothing means anything, because it’s magic. Sure, fine, you can use that as an argument, but it’s not going to redeem the bad writing. It just feels like an excuse.

How are we supposed to become invested in the story if every chapter is just a pie in the sky that doesn’t mean anything and makes no sense?

I think I will miss the Lion Fountain the most.

If Scarlet is here just to watch the world burn, I am sure there are more than enough people here that want to throw her in the fire too.

Lion’s Arch going down is important because it allows the overall game to progress.
Changes will be made to the game, and can be made in it’s absence. It keeps players from becoming complacent and board with the same old thing. It brings new players that may see something in the new content they like.

I thought the Searing was devastating, and then my character made it to Kryta, and things felt better. Then 140 years late Lion’s Arch goes glub glub and it is abandoned for a while. Everyone went and did their own thing, while pirates built Lion’s Arch up again well past it’s previous incarnation.

Losing a hub like this, just makes the game a lot more interesting to see what rises up in it’s place.

Delvoire.8930:

Also, I can’t think of one thing that has magic involved and makes sense. Magic defies logic. That’s the purpose of it.

No. magic defies laws of physics (as we know them), not logic. The moment logic breaks, the setting breaks.

Berethor.6142:

Having rules exist and knowing what those rules are and what they do are not the same thing.

True, but some rules and limitations can be reasoned by observance.

Berethor.6142:

LOL go read the dark tower series, if that doesn’t “stretch(es) the limits of believability” every third or fourth paragraph, I don’t know what does, and it is an amazing series considered by many to be the some of if not the best work in its genre.

It doesn’t. Nowhere in that series ever i have thought “huh, that thing doesn’t fit in there”. Yes, lot of extraordinary things are happening in that series, but the scale on which they operate is defined very fast. The series remain internally consistent.

I will give you an example of what i mean about internal consistency and how using “it’s magic” card cannot replace that.

There are two (three?) problems with alliances Scarlet uses to further her ends. First, the reasons why they even work for her are really flimsy and require us to forget most of what we know about the races in question and their nature. Second (tied to the one before), it’s hard to explain why they keep following her when their own goals were either reached, or made unviable, even when the continuation of their servitude to Scarlet is only detrimental for them. Third, there’s the matter of the resources, that do not diminish even after being significantly depleted (or even the matter of where those resources even come from).

Yes, we can solve all of those problems with Magic! We can say, that Scarlet is mind-controlling massive groups of people into obedience, and conjuring resources (and people) out of nowhere. It’s magic, after all, so nothing is impossible.
But, there are two problems tied to such approach. First, it would mean her magic is extremely powerful. Way more powerful than any other magic we’ve seen or heard so far, short of power of the human gods. In fact, it would be way more powerful that what we see so far elder Dragons are capable of – while they seem to be able to both mind control and create servants, there are some stringent limitations on those cases that Scarletwould then seem to completely ignore.
Second, if she was capable of magic of that level, she would not have needed to gather those armies in the first place. She could have just blown up LA with a flick of her mind. Or ordered the city inhabitants to serve her if they want to live.
Unless, of course, she’s not capable of doing that – but in that case we cannot use magic as an explanation for the earlier inconsistences.
Logic always needs to be adhered to. Magic or no magic. Otherwise the story has no sense.

The vigil keep as to be a very temporary thing, way too small and not instanced like LA is. They/we need a bigger place to rebuild the new city. I’d say slay the chickens next to LA and take that. The size is about right And feathers are always good to sell.

I think the main problem with Scarlett is that she has no significant weaknesses. She is mad but that is not a weakness but a strength in the stories context, because it takes away any moral limitations of her doings. She is physically weak but it doesn’t matter because all you see about her are only projections anyway.

Instead she is incredibly intelligent, somehow charming for her allies (otherwise she couldn’t manage to make them serve her) and insanely clever. In addition she has unlimited resources.

The storyplot is also some kind of a game after all but it is a game with unbeatable opponent, because you never get a chance to beat the enemy at his weaknesses while you as a player are clearly limited. I think that makes it so unsatisfiing. It becomes even worse because usually you get some kind of credit for doing something but that get erased the next time not even showing you that you did something wrong but only telling you that you did or well, telling you that Scarlett -of course- was more clever than you.

That beeing said I never minded Scalett beeing so one dimensional but now they are going to destroy my favorite hub and it just feels deliberately. I wish I could be angry at Scarlett but the only way I personally can see her is that she is a poor actor who does what’s written in the storybook while she is lacking a really immersive dimension. Even if we manage to beat her in the end I think it will just feel like “Ok, this time I let you win…”

So from my point of view it would be even better if the players lost that kind of game with Scarlett entirely. It would be quite fatalistic but at least it would be consistent as a game you can’t win.

Btw I can understand that it is pretty difficult to create a storyarc over one year but while I personally enjoyed the internal storyparts of each chapter with Rox and Braham and the other figures quite alot I found the Scarlettstory never really appealing. Maybe it’s just simply to long…

Erukk.1408:

“For the time being”= temporary change

There is nothing there that confirms (or even hints at for that matter) that they will move back to Lion’s Arch though.
It is fully possible that they will move to Vigil Keep for now, but later on will be moved to a new hub, that may or may not be a rebuilt Lion’s Arch.

Pirlipat.2479:

I think the main problem with Scarlett is that she has no significant weaknesses. She is mad but that is not a weakness but a strength in the stories context…

And she’s only insane because an evil entity is manipulating her, so it’s not even her fault. So even though she “enjoys” being cruel and sadistic, she’s also simultaneously a victim. Contradictions like this in character design typically leave viewers scratching their heads…

Pirlipat.2479:

That beeing said I never minded Scalett beeing so one dimensional but now they are going to destroy my favorite hub and it just feels deliberately. I wish I could be angry at Scarlett but the only way I personally can see her is that she is a poor actor who does what’s written in the storybook while she is lacking a really immersive dimension. Even if we manage to beat her in the end I think it will just feel like “Ok, this time I let you win…”

^ This. The destruction of Lion’s Arch is the first time that I wish the players had more control over the direction of the Living Story. So far, the only direct control we have had was when we voted for Ellen or Evon, and that was really an inconsequential choice in a lot of ways.

It really does feel like Arenanet is taking us for a ride, destroying things we love about the game and there’s nothing we can do about it.

lordkrall.7241:

Erukk.1408:

“For the time being”= temporary change

There is nothing there that confirms (or even hints at for that matter) that they will move back to Lion’s Arch though.

Other than the fact that we know that Scarlet’s story is going to end on March 4th? Without Scarlet leading them, her alliances are probably going to flee the field, and Lion’s Arch is going to be easily retaken afterwards. It wouldn’t make any sense to not move back, repair, and rebuild.

The Captain’s Council is going to have to reestablish Lion’s Arch after all this. Without Lion’s Arch, being a member of said council would be meaningless. The writers would have never held a major election to put a member on it, as well as promising future changes and ramifications regarding the victor, if they were doing away with the whole thing in less than a year. Unless, of course, the writers were hoping to have a kitten storm on their hands.

What will change the face of Tyria forever will be the awakening of Mordremoth, the last Elder Dragon to rise. It will be the second Elder Dragon besides Zhaitan that we will actually get to see. It’s been sleeping under LA all the time, even during the times of GW1. The probe in LA most likely shows its location, and it’s under water, despite being associated with “nature”.

The destruction of LA will only be temporary, and i am sure we will get it back, maybe with some changes in architecture. It’s too important to not be rebuilt. If the council of captains can keep its independence remains to be seen, but i doubt that LA will fall under Krytan rule.

Scarlet is already corrupted in body by Mordremoth, she has struggled to keep her mind free from corruption but it cost her her sanity and she may just do the Elder Dragon’s bidding, without realizing it – helping it awaken. She believes she stands a chance to destroy Mordremoth with her drill and Ethercannon, but will fail.

Scarlet will take LA, we will fight her but fail in preventing her from doing so, and the final act will be her attempt to “kill” Mordremoth. Most likely Mordremoth will take her as a light snack after getting up. Afterwards we may see new dragon minions all over Tyria, besides the Nightmare Court Sylvari, that is.

PeterThomas.7243:

^ This. The destruction of Lion’s Arch is the first time that I wish the players had more control over the direction of the Living Story. So far, the only direct control we have had was when we voted for Ellen or Evon, and that was really an inconsequential choice in a lot of ways.

It really does feel like Arenanet is taking us for a ride, destroying things we love about the game and there’s nothing we can do about it.

ANet has said repeatedly that this is THEIR game. They have total control over the vision, the direction, the content, etcetera.

That is their right.

If ANet decides, for whatever reason, that destroying LA or any other zone/city is something that may impact their customers (both negatively and positively), or is something they need/want to do for long term direction or even for technical reasons, they are the creators. If they want to take their customers “for a ride”, they can.

The only thing they could be accused of doing if they call their game a real MMO, is breaking the unspoken covenant clearly understood by MMO developers and customers alike, that an MMO is a persistent world.

I don’t believe GW2 is necessarily viewed as an MMO and could point to quotes that call it something else entirely.

Having said all that, I happen to agree with you.

In the end, however, what the customers can do is basically three things:

The players can accept what the developers are doing, tolerate it, or walk away.

Personally, I have a hard time accepting what appears to be a hard line on tight game ownership/control. I tolerate (barely) some of the direction of the game because the other parts appeal to my guild. I AM planning to walk away as soon as a quality game comes along that provides the gameplay my guild likes/wants.

Delvoire.8930:

Astralporing.1957:

I am sorry, but you are so wrong here it hurts. First, even a fantasy setting and fantasy story need to be internally consistent. If it’s not, they are not a setting or story at all, but only an incoherent babbling. Second, the fact that “mysterious or supernatural forces” exist doesn’t mean those are not also bound by their own rules. While those rules are often more nebulous and less clear-cut than we’re used to with scientific aproach, they generally do exist (if there are no rules at all, it’s generally a mark of a bad writing). As far as we know the magic in GW2 is not one of such “no rules” cases, and does have rules and limitations. While exceptions are still possible, too many of those (or too big ones) just devalue the rest of the setting. And third, the sentence “stretches the limits of believability” is always relevant to any story, regardless of how magical or weird it would be. Basically, the story needs to make sense, needs to be relatable by the reader. If it doesn’t, then it doesn’t, and all waving the “it’s magic” card around accomplishes is to make it even _more senseless.
Besides, most of the logical inconsistences in the Scarlet story are not connected with magic at all.

TL/DR: “Magic” in a story doesn’t mean you can forget about sense and logic.

The Elder Dragons are ancient, powerful beings of unknown origins. They keep the magic balanced by consuming it and drawing it into themselves; though indications show that this isn’t their goal or intention, but rather a side-effect of how they function. Every several thousand years (roughly 10,000 years according to the Durmand Priory), the dragons wake and consume everything in the world, thereby reducing the world to a low level of magic, before going back to sleep. Then the magic they have consumed bleeds out into the world, harmless unlike when they’re awake, only for the dragons to eventually awaken once more and the cycle to begin again

This basically says the Magic is unbalanced and dangerous right now.

Also, I can’t think of one thing that has magic involved and makes sense. Magic defies logic. That’s the purpose of it._

Eh, Magic defies Science, not Logic. Logic is just reason. Within a world like Tyria, magic is reasonable. Within a world like Tyria, the commando class is not reasonable. So, it isn’t logical.

In a magical world, the presence of magic should make sense. In our world we are bound by our physical laws. Tyria is bound by the laws of its lore. That’s really the purpose of lore; to serve as parameters.

Erukk.1408:

Other than the fact that we know that Scarlet’s story is going to end on March 4th? Without Scarlet leading them, her alliances are probably going to flee the field, and Lion’s Arch is going to be easily retaken afterwards. It wouldn’t make any sense to not move back, repair, and rebuild.

The Captain’s Council is going to have to reestablish Lion’s Arch after all this. Without Lion’s Arch, being a member of said council would be meaningless. The writers would have never held a major election to put a member on it, as well as promising future changes and ramifications regarding the victor, if they were doing away with the whole thing in less than a year. Unless, of course, the writers were hoping to have a kitten storm on their hands.

We destroyed the Tower of Nightmares months ago, and yet I still see parts of it effecting Kessex Hills.

Just because Scarlet’s story is coming to an end doesn’t mean there will be no trace of her after she is gone.

What if her attack on Lion’s Arch attracts the attention of Mordremoth which then decides to wake up and crush LA? Should we remove it and leave it forever then just because Scarlet’s story is over?

And why assume the Council will survive at all? And if they do, do you really think they would be able to keep ruling after failing completely with their task of defending Lion’s Arch?

lordkrall.7241:

We destroyed the Tower of Nightmares months ago, and yet I still see parts of it effecting Kessex Hills.

Just because Scarlet’s story is coming to an end doesn’t mean there will be no trace of her after she is gone.

What if her attack on Lion’s Arch attracts the attention of Mordremoth which then decides to wake up and crush LA? Should we remove it and leave it forever then just because Scarlet’s story is over?

And why assume the Council will survive at all? And if they do, do you really think they would be able to keep ruling after failing completely with their task of defending Lion’s Arch?

I wasn’t arguing that there wasn’t going to be any trace of Scarlet still left. I was arguing that there would be no reason for her alliances to stay in LA after she is gone though. She is the only thing keep all those alliances together in a cohesive force, and once she is gone, all those fragile alliances will come crashing down.

The Dredge and Flame Legion barely tolerate each other as it is.
The Nightmare Court and Krait was simply using one another.
The Krait are slavers, and the Dredge’s whole culture is build on them being ex-slaves.
The Flame Legion and Krait are both religious fanatics.
The Dredge barely trust anyone, let alone anyone so sadistic like the Nightmare Court.
The Aetherblades are simply there for the loot.
And the Watchwork are robots.

Once Scarlet is gone, and the players and probably Orders are knocking on Lion’s Arch’s door, what’s keeping the alliances there? Nothing. They would either all flee, or they will turn on one another in a power struggle from the vacuum that Scarlet left.

There is nothing there that confirms (or even hints at for that matter) that Mordremoth will crush LA into dust. The best we have is loose speculation, since we still have no idea what the exactly purpose of the probes are, and what Scarlet is using them for. We have even looser speculation on what one turning green means. All we have summarized for it, is that it is “Not good.”

Why would you assume the Captain’s Council won’t survive? They wouldn’t be any point is killing off so many major character, especially Kiel. As for if they would be able to keep ruling after failing horrible, if they are funding the possible rebuilding of the whole city, ya. Plus, they have successfully ruled that city for years, and they have the influence and money for any possible races to get their jobs back, if it comes to that.

goldenwing.8473:

ANet has said repeatedly that this is THEIR game. They have total control over the vision, the direction, the content, etcetera.

The players can accept what the developers are doing, tolerate it, or walk away.

You are, of course correct.

It just makes me sad.

The level of quality that the game offered at launch compared to what the Living Story offers us now are like night and day. I only keep playing because there’s still enough repeatable core content that interests me (for now).

PeterThomas.7243

^ This. The destruction of Lion’s Arch is the first time that I wish the players had more control over the direction of the Living Story. So far, the only direct control we have had was when we voted for Ellen or Evon, and that was really an inconsequential choice in a lot of ways.

It really does feel like Arenanet is taking us for a ride, destroying things we love about the game and there’s nothing we can do about it.

Well, I think it wouldn’t be a good idea to give the playerbase THAT much power. I’m not really sure that a great majority of players would want to keep LA. In the end something like giving a direct influence on such important places could split the playerbase. In fact I am not really sure if the decission about what will happen to LA isn’t based on players input over the forums etc.

I just wish IF they decided to destroy LA and turn everything upside down that it would be at least an immersive experience and not feel like something which is already decided and prescribed, because the developers want the city out of the way or destroyed or burnt on significant places for whatever reason. (I would rather like if they kept it, but that’s me.) Edit: But meh… let’s wait whats coming…

Sry, my grammar becomes more and more confusing i think…

Maybe we DID have a choice about the destruction of Lion’s Arch?

Evon does seem way more interested in the defenses of Lion’s Arch than Kiel ever was after all.

I doubt it.^^ I don’t want to jump on the Evon vs Ellen debate, but Evon is talking alot about defenses but he isn’t doing anything – same as Kiel. In fact since the captains council isn’t doing anything, what was the point in taking May Trin out of the way? It couldn’t have been worse with her.

sigh maybe we sould use a more outside view: together with two ladies, a cat with horns, a 3meter guy and an assortement of cute stereotypes you hunt down a mad pineapple who is possesed by the murderous dandelion. This CAN’T end well. xD

PeterThomas.7243:

goldenwing.8473:

ANet has said repeatedly that this is THEIR game. They have total control over the vision, the direction, the content, etcetera.

The players can accept what the developers are doing, tolerate it, or walk away.

You are, of course correct.

It just makes me sad.

The level of quality that the game offered at launch compared to what the Living Story offers us now are like night and day. I only keep playing because there’s still enough repeatable core content that interests me (for now).

I could not possibly agree more.

At release, this game had me as excited as a kid at Christmas. That is not something I could say about any other MMO I have played in over 14 years. Then, it seemed, slowly, after about January 2013, something changed, and patch after patch, the quality appeared to downward spiral.

My guild enjoys the 5-man content and mobile combat, along with most of WvW.

The original artwork and graphics for this game are superb.

The story writing since LS first went in just makes us wince. And what could be construed as a desperate ploy for attention grabbing by destroying LA …

…well…. that just makes us sad.

PS: When you realize that ANet will do what it wants, for whatever reason, that the Dungeon Master appears to be acting capriciously and arbitrarily, without regard to consequences, without regard for consistency within their own lore, then what trust is there left for any sense of game integrity? I suspect that if it suited ANet, there would be no reason to retain ANY of the characters from LA (council, Evon, etcetera).

No amount of logic (from customers trying to reason out who/what will survive and what will happen next) will hold in the face of ANet’s demonstrated behavior. (Perhaps they want it that way.)

At this point, nothing they do would surprise me. Including destorying their own game.

The general feeling I have observed in game seems overwhelmingly positive, people think it is awesome and exciting and they can’t wait to see what happens.
I was surprised how much people are speculating around what it means in terms of the world and our part in things.

Once I heard that LA was getting bombed, I jumped in with all my alts that didn’t have map completion and got it done. I screenied every vista (which was kinda cool, as afterward I was able to compare day and night screenies), and climbed to my favorite spots to get screenies of the city. I plan on making the attempt of getting to the same spots and getting screenies for comparison after the city burns. Mixed feelings abound.

Have to agree with the many posts discussing the poor way Anet introduced us to Scarlet. Peter Thomas summed it up nicely in his post above. I believe that if our toons had been exposed to her in a dynamic event in Rata Sum or Heolbrak during her rise, many of the criticisms of her wouldn’t exist. Many others WOULD still exist, however, as Peter Thomas has very eloquently pointed out. And the sad thing is that none of the writers saw that their introduction was flawed (in many player opinions) until the backlash on these forums. During or leading up to the LS releases, there should have been announcements about “New Dynamic Event in Rata Sum (or Hoelbrak, or where ever)” introducing us to Ceara BEFORE she became Scarlet, and giving our toons some history with the character, to better immerse us in the LS. Hopefully, the writers have learned their lesson and the next LS will not be so lore-breaking.

But there is a rather major issue there: She became Scarlet before GW2 in-game timeline even starts, rather long before even (she become Scarlet around 1321AE, GW2 Personal Story starts in 1325AE and the Living Story in 1326AE with the current year being 1327AE), so HOW would we be able to meet her before that?

goldenwing.8473:

PeterThomas.7243:

goldenwing.8473:

ANet has said repeatedly that this is THEIR game. They have total control over the vision, the direction, the content, etcetera.

The players can accept what the developers are doing, tolerate it, or walk away.

You are, of course correct.

It just makes me sad.

The level of quality that the game offered at launch compared to what the Living Story offers us now are like night and day. I only keep playing because there’s still enough repeatable core content that interests me (for now).

I could not possibly agree more.

At release, this game had me as excited as a kid at Christmas. That is not something I could say about any other MMO I have played in over 14 years. Then, it seemed, slowly, after about January 2013, something changed, and patch after patch, the quality appeared to downward spiral.

My guild enjoys the 5-man content and mobile combat, along with most of WvW.

The original artwork and graphics for this game are superb.

The story writing since LS first went in just makes us wince. And what could be construed as a desperate ploy for attention grabbing by destroying LA …

…well…. that just makes us sad.

PS: When you realize that ANet will do what it wants, for whatever reason, that the Dungeon Master appears to be acting capriciously and arbitrarily, without regard to consequences, without regard for consistency within their own lore, then what trust is there left for any sense of game integrity? I suspect that if it suited ANet, there would be no reason to retain ANY of the characters from LA (council, Evon, etcetera).

No amount of logic (from customers trying to reason out who/what will survive and what will happen next) will hold in the face of ANet’s demonstrated behavior. (Perhaps they want it that way.)

At this point, nothing they do would surprise me. Including destorying their own game.

This sums up how I feel very nicely. This game is devolving, and the current Anet team seems to delight in destroying their own creations and lore to prove something.

They may well be remembered for doing what no mmo has done before, they desperately seem to want this.. but will it be a Pyrrhic victory?

The ownership thing is beyond anything I have seen in 14 years myself as well, to the point of not even allowing client side UI and graphic options. The constant prodding to do what they feel we should be doing. CDI threads that bluntly put some development decisions “off the table”. Then the whole “we think most players are bad so we made Marionette and Jungle worm to make you get better” attitude of the last chapter.

Saint.5647:

As someone else mentioned, Varresh Ossa from GW: Nightfall was a fantastic villain. I bought that she was a powerful ruler and competent military tactician. From the exposition I could tell that something was amiss with Kourna and Ossa. She had a strong backstory behind her (and her name) and her descent into madness was also believable. None of her skills and actions seemed far fetched.

I would quote the whole post, but I’ll have to stop here. I think you nailed my thoughts perfectly and gave the best example so far to underline the lack of quality writing concerning Scarlet and Living story in general and drew some delicious GW1 parallels. The writing, world-building and the subtlety there compared to the sequel was just superb.

lordkrall.7241, that’s part of the problem. It happened too early for our toons to be a part of it. It probably shouldn’t have happened that way, or that early in the timeline. Our toons should have been fed that information very early in game. There was a sylvari that went through the schools in Rata Sum blowing away records, and our asuran toons never heard a peep about it while leveling up after launch. It already happened? Fine. Make a reference to it at some point. Zojja could have said at any time, “Don’t get the idea that you’re another Ceara!” And she could have given us a little back story as a qualifier.