A Rallying Flame?
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What if we’re not around on May 12th? I have no idea what I might be doing that day. I did all the other story achievements, and I don’t want to miss out on my Fused Weapon Skin just because I might not be able to log in on that day.
It’s available for multiple days right?
Nope, 24 hours only. Good luck!
Actually, it lasts until the 16th. You’re ill informed and pathetically whiny. GW2 is an MMO. Don’t play a purely online game if you want a solo experience. If you’re going to anyways, then don’t bloody well whinge on about being forced to do one epic group event that only takes about an hour if you run with people who don’t suck. One is hindrance enough.
It’s a fun dungeon if you grow up and refuse to act like the entitled, spoiled brat that you’ve led me to believe you are. It just makes you one more reason for misanthropes everywhere to feel justified.
Few sympathize with a fool, so announcing your singularly absurd complaints in the forum will get you little else, but spite and loathing. Knowing that people like you exist is a day ruiner, man. I’d be embarrassed if I accepted that you’re part of the same species as I. As I don’t know what you look like, though, I’ll just choose to believe that you’re a Sasquatch with a decent grasp of English and the workings of modern technology.
The information about the epilogue ending on the 16th is indeed mea culpa—I’m not sure if it was my misreading, or seeing inaccurate info, but I had been under the impression the epilogue started on the 12th and then was to disappear on the following day.
As for the rest…hmm. I’m guessing you’re a WoW player who came into GW2, and never played GW1. The attitude you’re attempting to project onto me very much fits that profile. I’m betting at some point, you’ve complained that Guild Wars has no end-game content, and/or not enough Dungeons.
Yes, Mandatory Dungeons/Raids are an accepted part of any MMO except Guild Wars. One of the hallmarks of Guild Wars 1 was that they did the exact opposite—none of the dungeons were at all required to complete the storyline (though I do seem to recall a couple of missions that used the same maps, but with a different mix of enemies and with some paths cut off). They were bonus content, and that was it. I only finished one of the three main (Four, if you’re counting the Eye of the North) storylines personally (Factions, though I got about halfway through the others as well), and not once was there a mandatory requirement to do a Dungeon run.
By the way, where is this ‘epic group event’ you’re refering to? I’ve seen epic group events in several places in GW2, including the Maw and the Fire Elemental. (Though to be honest, I saw more epic events back on Rift—ever been through an Invasion over there? Unfortunately, the place is subscription-based, unlike either Guild Wars.) All I’m seeing here is a 5-man raid dungeon. A dungeon that serves as a roadblock to actually completing this event, with no alternatives, and no choice, other than to write off the past months of participation as a complete waste of time and effort for no reward.
As for fools—by your criteria there must be a lot of fools playing GW2, then. But I do wonder who’s more the fool? The fool who thinks that only one style of play should be allowed a reward for months of effort, the fool that stands there and lets themselves be slapped in the face, or the ‘fool’ who makes the effort to stand up and say ‘No, this is wrong, and should be fixed so all styles can enjoy and be rewarded.’?
I’ve played myriad MMOs, including Rift which is one of the best imo, but I skipped right over GW1. I was plenty happy with what end game content GW2 has. The dungeons have been genuine challenges, which is rare enough in this genre, and the PvP is fantastic. The whole point of this Living Story was to weave an epic into the history of Tyria, the culmination of which is this dungeon. The players have invested themselves into this and it’s a great climax for this event.
Any whinging on the forums is not a reliable census for unhappy players, simply the loud, misguidedly entitled ones. Just because you’re unhappy doesn’t mean that the state of things is wrong. Solo paths might be what you want, but maybe Anet wants to promote group play or doesn’t want to fork out extra time, money and personnel to, instead, promote antisocial play. Besides, emailing them is likely a better course to take, rather than hijacking someone’s thread, if you really want to be heard. GL with that, Sasq.
“A favourite war hero of mine got his tongue shot out.”
“How’d that happen?”
“He doesn’t talk about it.” – Stephen Fry
“How’d that happen?”
“He doesn’t talk about it.” – Stephen Fry
By the way, where is this ‘epic group event’ you’re refering to? I’ve seen epic group events in several places in GW2, including the Maw and the Fire Elemental.
This is part of the problem with the demands for stuff that isn’t a 5 man dungeon. The Maw is a joke. Jormag is a joke. The Shatter is a joke. All of the soloable mission are a joke. Anet has shown a distinct lack of ability to make epic, challenging and tactical experiences other than in 5 man dungeons. If you have an idea for something epic that they haven’t already tried and failed at, that would be great.
I’ve played myriad MMOs, including Rift which is one of the best imo, but I skipped right over GW1. I was plenty happy with what end game content GW2 has. The dungeons have been genuine challenges, which is rare enough in this genre, and the PvP is fantastic. The whole point of this Living Story was to weave an epic into the history of Tyria, the culmination of which is this dungeon. The players have invested themselves into this and it’s a great climax for this event.
Any whinging on the forums is not a reliable census for unhappy players, simply the loud, misguidedly entitled ones. Just because you’re unhappy doesn’t mean that the state of things is wrong. Solo paths might be what you want, but maybe Anet wants to promote group play or doesn’t want to fork out extra time, money and personnel to, instead, promote antisocial play. Besides, emailing them is likely a better course to take, rather than hijacking someone’s thread, if you really want to be heard. GL with that, Sasq.
Players have invested themselves into this…and it’s a great climax for those players who do dungeons. Shame about all the rest of us, who get nothing for our investment.
I do hope you’re including the whingeing about there not being enough dungeons, as well as the ones who keep proclaiming that if you don’t like dungeons, you’re anti-social and don’t interact at all. Though I might point out that getting stuck in these 5-man teams in other MMOs is largely one of the causes of this so-called ‘anti-social’ behavior, as well as why people flock to one of the few MMOs that at least appeared not to make it mandatory. If they’re trying not to promote anti-social play, they’d certainly be better off avoiding those dungeons, and focus more on open-world events, which actually do encourage social play.
Come to think of it—do you have an idea how ludicrous that is anyway? Dungeons push you into little 5-person cliques, isolated from the rest of the player base—about the only thing more ‘anti-social’ is a pure solo who refuses to interact with anyone else in any way. And this isn’t even getting into the very anti-social elitist attitudes that some dungeoneers display.
Of course once again you’re overlooking the fact that the majority of soloable play (other than the sraight item collectathons) can be done as group play as well.
As for email, not much point, really. Given what I’ve read on these forums, this was already tried back with the Personal Story, and accomplished nothing. In the forums themselves, the only times I’ve seen responses are for plain information requests, bug reports, and when they’re praised—criticism gets no response at all. They could be reading it and actually taking note, they could be ignoring it, they could be sticking their fingers in their ears and going ‘La-la-la-la can’t hear you, we’re wonderful and fabulous’. who knows?
By the way, where is this ‘epic group event’ you’re refering to? I’ve seen epic group events in several places in GW2, including the Maw and the Fire Elemental.
This is part of the problem with the demands for stuff that isn’t a 5 man dungeon. The Maw is a joke. Jormag is a joke. The Shatter is a joke. All of the soloable mission are a joke. Anet has shown a distinct lack of ability to make epic, challenging and tactical experiences other than in 5 man dungeons. If you have an idea for something epic that they haven’t already tried and failed at, that would be great.
Which makes me kind of wonder why you’re playing GW2, as opposed to a game that’s focused around that sort of content in the first place? Not trying to be sarcastic at all here—someone in another thread brought up the point of ‘If you don’t like dungeons, why not find a game that doesn’t have them?‘, and I’m looking at it from the other direction, given some of the people like yourself who seem to want only dungeon content.
By the way, where is this ‘epic group event’ you’re refering to? I’ve seen epic group events in several places in GW2, including the Maw and the Fire Elemental.
This is part of the problem with the demands for stuff that isn’t a 5 man dungeon. The Maw is a joke. Jormag is a joke. The Shatter is a joke. All of the soloable mission are a joke. Anet has shown a distinct lack of ability to make epic, challenging and tactical experiences other than in 5 man dungeons. If you have an idea for something epic that they haven’t already tried and failed at, that would be great.
Temple bosses and several guild bounties have bosses which have somewhat tactical group fights (more tactical than a lot of the non-revamped dungeons at least).
Alara Vesmir – Guardian
Tyr Sylvison – Warrior
Illyiah – Revenant
Tyr Sylvison – Warrior
Illyiah – Revenant
By the way, where is this ‘epic group event’ you’re refering to? I’ve seen epic group events in several places in GW2, including the Maw and the Fire Elemental.
This is part of the problem with the demands for stuff that isn’t a 5 man dungeon. The Maw is a joke. Jormag is a joke. The Shatter is a joke. All of the soloable mission are a joke. Anet has shown a distinct lack of ability to make epic, challenging and tactical experiences other than in 5 man dungeons. If you have an idea for something epic that they haven’t already tried and failed at, that would be great.
Which makes me kind of wonder why you’re playing GW2, as opposed to a game that’s focused around that sort of content in the first place? Not trying to be sarcastic at all here—someone in another thread brought up the point of ‘If you don’t like dungeons, why not find a game that doesn’t have them?‘, and I’m looking at it from the other direction, given some of the people like yourself who seem to want only dungeon content.
When did i say i want only dungeon content? Things like Jormag give good loot and are fine, they’d just be terrible ways to cap something important because you can sleep through them. Same with the solo stuff. They serve a purpose, but they’re a poor replacement for challenging content that requires multiplayer coordination.
This is part of the problem with the demands for stuff that isn’t a 5 man dungeon. The Maw is a joke. Jormag is a joke. The Shatter is a joke. All of the soloable mission are a joke. Anet has shown a distinct lack of ability to make epic, challenging and tactical experiences other than in 5 man dungeons. If you have an idea for something epic that they haven’t already tried and failed at, that would be great.
Your argument is two-way. So it really don’t produce much. Map events are a joke for repetition, they’re a joke in the way of ‘challenge’ as you say, but bring more people in once place then the dungeons do.
Most say pick up groups are loud and rude, but they forget some of them are quiet and anti-social, bordering on awkward when trying to break the ice with being social. You can get that in the map events as well. The point about ‘failing in epic challenge in all but 5-man dungeons’ in itself is a joke. It inadvertently implies that adding absurd statistics to dungeon mobs is the catalyst to a true challenge (seeing as that’s the core method to the challenges of 5-man dungeons in question). If they made the map events challenging in the same way as the dungeons (or even basic adventuring), you can watch the population drop at heart-racing levels.
The ‘QQ’ and ‘thread hijacking’ as people say, would sky rocket. Because as it is, challenges like these dungeons AREN’T rare in these games. It’s that over-partying and over-gearing is what takes away challenges. Dunno that I’d play a game where i start out with 800 HP, but bats and giant rats are dealing 789 hp a hit in basic zones, or I’m dealing 10 hp to the same mobs, but they have 1,000 hp. Then watch them agro me in droves. The basic ‘style of challenge’ that’s praised in dungeons would capture the game as a whole, but be nothing more then absurd numbers keeping the player base as a whole on their toes rather then ‘creative challenge’. The game’d not be the best thing to come home and unwind on.
Your post almost implies no real hope for the game in general when you consider these things a long side their counter-points.
[…] They serve a purpose, but they’re a poor replacement for challenging content that requires multiplayer coordination.
Now this is a good point. It also plays outside of MMO sociality when being social in a heart-racing situation can get your party killed. Which is also a reason for the quiet i mentioned in my last post.
Now as it is, setting aside ‘numerical challenge’, and basic MMO sociality, the basic problem, is that the living story started out with lame mechanics, had a good tween, but was essentially as mentioned by another ‘bait and switch’, which isn’t the best way to execute an otherwise good idea. I’ve already completed the dungeon. Me and my wife as an Engineer and Ranger aced it up to the end boss. The odds were so stacked against us, she just handed me a cold beer and goes: “We’re using lfg.com”.
The dungeon two-man wasn’t as much as a challenge as people made it out to be… But the boss wasn’t beatable… The problem was, that the gameplay itself was the crux. It stank…
So the party shows up almost imediately, By that time i was numb and wanted the garbage overwith… So I died, and they killed the boss while i watched. Escaping the darn place was the most fun it produced. It was a light at the end of the tunnel.
I know challenge first hand.. My Engineer can solo heart-racing group-events in mid-level areas, where all agrro’s on just me (which is something i don’t do a lot, because it’s a tensity i don’t like in the game, but helps me keep sharp for when in a party). It’s all just basic MMORPG numerical mechanics with ‘manual skill’ being only there to ‘give you better odds of win to a mathematically arbitrary situation’… Nothing more…
Map events are a joke for repetition, they’re a joke in the way of ‘challenge’ as you say, but bring more people in once place then the dungeons do.
And that’s proven to be a huge problem. Not only are huge events with 100+ people in one place less than a challenge, but they’ve also proven to be a technical nightmare. Lost Shore’s island building event might have been awesome if it wasn’t a lag fest full of invisible enemies and disconnects. Do any world boss and you’ll read people complaining about lag (and they’re hands are free to type all about it since you can hit the boss once or twice and get credit). More people /= better event.
The point about ‘failing in epic challenge in all but 5-man dungeons’ in itself is a joke. It inadvertently implies that adding absurd statistics to dungeon mobs is the catalyst to a true challenge (seeing as that’s the core method to the challenges of 5-man dungeons in question). If they made the map events challenging in the same way as the dungeons (or even basic adventuring), you can watch the population drop at heart-racing levels.
Dungeon runners have been complaining about hp inflation as difficulty for a long time and this latest dungeon, with a bosses that require movement and awareness over tank n’ spank (outside of the obvious stacking bug), shows that they can do dungeons without simply relying on number inflation for challenge. You also have dungeons where you need some people to fight while others open doors, hold positions or hit switches. You can’t have anything like that if the instances are assumed to scale down to one person.
But as you say, big numbers = challenge is a phenomenon you see through out the game anyway, so regardless of whether you advocate for scaling, dungeons or open world events, it is in no way a knock against including 5-man dungeon runs. In fact, you need to rely on “OMG huge numbers!” more in solo content and zerg bosses because they can’t rely on sophisticated coordination between individuals the way a small group can.
[… cut for posting room …]
But as you say, big numbers = challenge is a phenomenon you see through out the game anyway, so regardless of whether you advocate for scaling, dungeons or open world events, it is in no way a knock against including 5-man dungeon runs. In fact, you need to rely on “OMG huge numbers!” more in solo content and zerg bosses because they can’t rely on sophisticated coordination between individuals the way a small group can.
I’m gonna reply this roughly as a whole. Your post isn’t wrong. But it does kinda show what I mean on the “Your post almost implies there’s no hope for the game” statement in another post, when 100+ events produce lag, and the inflation of HP being a gameplay issue more then a ‘challenge’. I basically feel that if they go about things as they are, the removing of hp inflation won’t help, as it really does outshine the rest of the mechanics involved in promoting teamwork within the dungeons, making it an unfortunate core factor of where most the challenge is coming from.
In my view, the dungeons having a complicated AI to replace stupid levels of HP would be a better fix to ALL game content, but might bog the server down in a fast-pace situation within dungeons. And I don’t wanna know what it’d do to the outer world. As it is, ALL more intelligent enemies (ie: ones using language) should ‘know’ not to stand in AOE (Like in the original game, where AOE fields will just cause mobs to move). They need to use their skills more efficiently.
Most basic attack skills the NPCs use that are badly throttled to a 4 second cool-down removed. ranged (bow or gunner) enemies need to therefore shoot as fast player, and move, rather then remaining stationary (Yeah. Imagine bandits still having basic HP, but using the exact same skills as us instead of “Heh-heh! You’re kidding right!?” then follow up with a useless dodge and shooting a pea at you once every two seconds).
There’s a lot of things that could be done to make the game more ‘interesting’ at any level of challenge. But HP/ATT inflation and constant pulls makes it more frustrating, even if you ace the event with or without other’s help, which unfortunately is an infallible truth about what dungeon game-play is mostly based, with a side of extra legit challenges. Also, they have the code to dynamically scale even HP inflation to accommodate 1-5 players. They just for—either their own reasons of for lazy reasons—refuse to use it.
The ultimate point I really do think however, is making an event for polar opposite play-styles without any heads up in a ‘boolean’ manner for lack of a better word, instead of same achievements (Prize or otherwise) in event parallels, so that you have to ‘pick the poison and go’, then know ahead of time that whatever one you complete first gives said prize, before the next story episode. Doing the other would be purely lore-aesthetic. Then fore-knowledge would have been a better way then ending in a 5-man after slightly misleading the general public on both ends into expectancy of something else, like what it was or otherwise. Following the story left a lot of potential content that could have been that parallel event, nothing more then readable text (Yes, I’m KEENLY aware of the amount of energy/work that’d entail. It’s why devs are paid for that work).
As I say in another thread. I reverence the fact that they have their work cut out for them, but… Well, It seems when they learn a lesson, sometimes some present aren’t in attendance that day perhaps, then become the lead to future content.
To reiterate; stat-inflation for challenge, and bad scaling as a reason that ending this event with a 5-man dungeon being bad idea was outside of my point. My point was that they mislead both dungeon lovers and otherwise into believing the Living Story was one thing, when it was clearly another. It amounted to alienating a player-base, while it was misleadingly for that base by default.
It should have had the energy put into it more for both without forced cross over. It WAS and IS possible, as most of their energy was put into scavenge hunt, and NPC ‘press F’ interaction as it’s bulk… …
Overall, they need to work on finding ways to make encounters interesting without falling back on hp inflation. Its just far, far easier to do it in a dungeon since you can for the group to split and do different things in order to overcome a single challenge (dredge fractals, cliffside fractals, ghosterbuster AC path, etc…). I’d like to see them come up with some stuff like that outside of the dungeons, but i don’t have a whole lot of faith that it will and it’s far more likely we’ll see those types of innovations in dungeons sooner.
I agree with people who would like to see multiple ways to get through the story since it supports the “play your way” dogma, i just don’t want to see scaled dungeons be the answer since they have yet to show they can get scaling right at all.
Overall, they need to work on finding ways to make encounters interesting without falling back on hp inflation. Its just far, far easier to do it in a dungeon since you can for the group to split and do different things in order to overcome a single challenge (dredge fractals, cliffside fractals, ghosterbuster AC path, etc…). I’d like to see them come up with some stuff like that outside of the dungeons, but i don’t have a whole lot of faith that it will and it’s far more likely we’ll see those types of innovations in dungeons sooner.
I agree with people who would like to see multiple ways to get through the story since it supports the “play your way” dogma, i just don’t want to see scaled dungeons be the answer since they have yet to show they can get scaling right at all.
That has extreme validity. From everything I’ve seen so far, they do have that framework. Guess it’s a matter of ‘seeing how they can use those tools’ before we see improv on world and dungeon. Because the current problems with dungeons is what made good ideas even in this dungeon un climatic and somewhat frustrating.
So anyhoo. I hold to my view, agreeing with what you’re saying. Again, not wrong. Just hope that these kids are actually reading this… Even with any bickering goin’ on in these threads, there’s a looootta thought to work with here for their future content… Or rather OUR future content.
(who’d have thunk that one can post to a 5-day-old thread and already be necro-posting?)
I, too, hate dungeons.
Not because they’re inherently bad, but because they were implemented badly.
Case 1: they CANNOT be done with less than 5 people (at least the reasonably hard ones)
Which is not that bad, in itself – but it means that if out of the 5, one is incompetent, you still have no chance.
Just got back from a 3-hour run of the Weapons Facilities, where a single ranger with the HP of a European coconut-laden swallow kept 4 other people from being able to finish – dozens of runs on the bosses, with different strategies and varying amounts of success, until she left and we replaced her with someone competent.
Case 2: they cannot be stopped and resumed later.
I don’t have 3 hours to waste in one sitting, but because it’s a “multiplayer dungeon”, it doesn’t have meaningful checkpoints I can come back to later, so it must be done in one sitting.
Case 3: this particular dungeon is time-limited.
And because the event is expiring this Sunday, if I don’t do it today then I won’t have time to do it before it ends. So my options are: not get enough sleep tonight and go to work like a zombie tomorrow, OR never get to see the end of the event and never get the final rewards. Whee.
Case 1: Many dungeons have been soloed. Here is a solo video of MWF.
I have also soloed the boss.
Case 2: Not many dungeons take 3 hours.
Case 3: I like that its time limited, it makes the dungeon experience more interesting and you don’t get tired of it.
Huh, so “midnight on the 12th” apparently means 11:59 and not 12:01 (the bonfire is still not up).
And it’s stopping on the 14th instead of the 16th now.
So how is “Time limited = good”, again?
Case 1: they CANNOT be done with less than 5 people (at least the reasonably hard ones)
Which is not that bad, in itself – but it means that if out of the 5, one is incompetent, you still have no chance.
Just got back from a 3-hour run of the Weapons Facilities, where a single ranger with the HP of a European coconut-laden swallow kept 4 other people from being able to finish – dozens of runs on the bosses, with different strategies and varying amounts of success, until she left and we replaced her with someone competent.
I’m gonna disagree with Case 1. We did everything but the boss with just 4 people. Only one was level 80. Also, the 4 of us aren’t even close to being particularly skillful. We wiped alot, but it was doable over a couple of hours. Granted, we needed a 5th to take out the bosses finally, but i don’t think just one incompetent person is going to cause the rest of the group to not make it through.
I agree with the other two cases, though. Checkpoints would be nice for our super-casual guild, as we really only get together and play 1 night a week. Same for availability….would have been nice to have this dungeon around for more than 2 weeks.
By the way, where is this ‘epic group event’ you’re refering to? I’ve seen epic group events in several places in GW2, including the Maw and the Fire Elemental.
This is part of the problem with the demands for stuff that isn’t a 5 man dungeon. The Maw is a joke. Jormag is a joke. The Shatter is a joke. All of the soloable mission are a joke. Anet has shown a distinct lack of ability to make epic, challenging and tactical experiences other than in 5 man dungeons. If you have an idea for something epic that they haven’t already tried and failed at, that would be great.
CHAMPION. RISEN. WRAITHS.
Trying to get a PUG to kill one of them is like trying to herd kittens!
I tried to tell people to run when it flies and to not try rezzing dead people in range, but the lemmings just keep running into his leechy embrace, and then fully haling him.
screw maw or jormag, just plop one of the wraiths down and you have content that mindless zerging CANNOT defeat
It is not a well designed dungeon when it excludes players natural playing preferences. That is poor design. Players then miss out or are forced into playing in a manner that is not fun for them. There is no reason for dungeons not scaling with the number of players, even a single player, especially since Arenanet have already demonstrated they can do this easily enough.
By that logic, any new content is a fail because some players prefer turn-based fighting over real time.
The main issue here is that you play a game that isn’t designed for you, and then complain that they don’t change it to suit your style. It’s not the referee’s fault if you get a red card for picking up a ball with your hands during a soccer game as a non-goalie. It’s not poor design by ArenaNet if they make a game that’s not suited to your every personal whim. There are other games for you to play, but Guild Wars 2’s obviously not one of them. Deal with it.
If you can read this then it is proof that ArenaNet’s moderators just, kind and fair.
Huh, so “midnight on the 12th” apparently means 11:59 and not 12:01 (the bonfire is still not up).
And it’s stopping on the 14th instead of the 16th now.
So how is “Time limited = good”, again?
Where did they ever state it was going to start at midnight?
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