Guild Wars 2

But they will still try.

They are too used to skip from aaaaall the other dungeons. When people get so used to something, they end up repeating that even when it’ll be easier to do it so other way.
Suggesting not to skip may get you kicked out of the party and all.

I only hope it’s not filled with boring elite enemies.
Most of dungeon elites take way too long to defeat, are boring to fight against and rarely give rewards any better than a normal enemy. I believe they are one of the main reasons people skip so much. “Why hanging around punching this when I could be at the end of the dungeon already?”.

Blur.3465:

No one is preventing you from teaming up, since no instance, whatsoever, required ‘’you must go solo’‘…the Living Story with Rox and Braham was optional. You could solo it or enjoy it with the rest of people…
I don’t mind having big dungeons which require 5-man team, but I don’t see the point in adding this to the lore and story…

The Rox and Braham missions were also really straight forward and were only about killing waves of enemies. I don’t want to see the finale be a repeat of that.

UnderdogSMO.9428:

Join aguild of like minded people.

than when you go into a dungeon for story tell them “hay i havnt seen this yet” and normaly thay will be happy to wate for you often chating with other guildys.

at lest thats how me and mine do it

That may ‘solve’ the problem for me, but it doesn’t actually fix the real flaw in the design. A majority of the player base will still play story modes without much care for the story. You may as well just call them dungeons (easy mode or level/part 1) and take story out of the name.

I’ll hold out about this one as I have yet to experience it. If it does help this issue, I really hope they decide to revamp all of the other story dungeons to have a stronger and more engaging focus/emphasis on both the story and dungeon aspects. Honestly though, I feel it would have been better to make story modes solo-able and keep explorable to 5-man/group play. The whole personal story experience would have had much better pacing and flow to it that way. That’s just my personal opinion anyways.

Paul Belz.7351:

Hey guys,

I just want to mention that we have attempted to design this dungeon in a manner that, in a way, makes it very difficult to skip much of anything. We have done extensive internal testing and the general consensus is that trying to skip most of the content ends up being more trouble than it is worth, and the fastest way through is essentially to play through the content as intended.

I know that there will still be doubters, but hopefully the work we have put in towards this goal will contribute to providing the story experience you are hoping for.

Actually, I’ll skip the entire dungeon, thanks. Next time let us know up front that this stuff leads to group only play, and I’ll skip that too.

To OP and those that dislike dungeons, I feel your pain. I don’t 100% agree with you but I understand your perspective. Most of you say you like the game but don’t want to be forced into a dungeon, so let’s assume you’re willing to give the designers the benefit of the doubt that the dungeon has the potential to be as enjoyable as your solo experiences. In that case, we can try to mitigate the possible reasons you have to dislike dungeons. As far as I can tell, there are two main reasons to dislike story dungeons.

Reason 1: It is a pain to run with strangers who will probably try to skip the story and rush the experience

Possible solutions: Are you familiar with gw2lfg.com? It is the go-to dungeon group finder for the community right now and allows you to add comments specifying what sort of group you want. Start your own posting stating you want to go through the story a certain way, then confirm with your party in chat once it’s formed. I’ve done this for Arah explorable, supposedly the most unfriendly dungeon in the game, and gotten a group together in less than 5 minutes. While I don’t deny there are people who may ignore your request or insult you, a very large amount of people will respect what you want as long as you tell them.

Alternatively, try to form a group of other like-minded individuals from this thread.

Reason 2: Dungeons are a massive time commitment

Possible solutions: Assuming the designers are correct in their estimate, budget 2 hours for the dungeon to be safe. You won’t need to budget much time for putting together a group, regardless of your specifications, because this is going to be the biggest thing going on and everyone is going to be trying it, just like Tixx during Wintersday. That said, even if the dungeon is difficult, chances are good that within two days of release, you’re going to have a lot of people who have run the dungeon a lot. Again, at this point, using gw2lfg.com, you’re almost certain to be able to find at least 2 people familiar with the dungeon but willing to respect your desire to run the story. My 3-man guild, as one example, would be very willing to run alongside two strangers, assuming we’re online at the same time as you. We’ll almost certainly be able to get you through in under an hour while letting you take the lead, and I’m sure there are others like us out there. This is the friendliest online community I’ve ever seen.

In closing, I’ve never liked dungeons prior to GW2 and I don’t like playing with strangers. I’m not a very social person and GW2 appealed to me because so much of it was solo-able. However, I run dungeons in GW2 quite a bit for the rewards and because I like some of them, and I’ve almost never had a bad experience. Maybe I’m really lucky, but I’ve also found that it helps just to state up front what your expectations are. I’m not looking to convince you that ending Flame and Frost with a dungeon is a good idea, but I’m saying that if you still want to give it a try, there are quite a few ways to make the experience painless and perhaps even somewhat enjoyable. You probably won’t suddenly love dungeons, but maybe you’ll hate them less.

I plan on trying the F&F end dungeon with my family (4 of us) and if we can’t do it we will ask someone in-guild. This is an MMO. I know most content can be soloed, but I don’t see any of you complaining that you can’t Solo Teq, Claw, or Shatterer! If you don’t want to PUG, then ask your guild. If you don’t have a guild then find one and make a few friends. The heart of an MMO is cooperation. Please remember that.

Paul Belz.7351:

Hey guys,

I just want to mention that we have attempted to design this dungeon in a manner that, in a way, makes it very difficult to skip much of anything. We have done extensive internal testing and the general consensus is that trying to skip most of the content ends up being more trouble than it is worth, and the fastest way through is essentially to play through the content as intended.

I know that there will still be doubters, but hopefully the work we have put in towards this goal will contribute to providing the story experience you are hoping for.

These seems completely out of place in the discussion I’m reading on the thread, but good to know?

Paul Belz.7351:

Hey guys,

I just want to mention that we have attempted to design this dungeon in a manner that, in a way, makes it very difficult to skip much of anything. We have done extensive internal testing and the general consensus is that trying to skip most of the content ends up being more trouble than it is worth, and the fastest way through is essentially to play through the content as intended.

I know that there will still be doubters, but hopefully the work we have put in towards this goal will contribute to providing the story experience you are hoping for.

So since it’s designed to not be skipped that must mean the mobs have normal, non padded, amounts of HP or they drop great loot to make them completely worth the mind numbing boredom it is to kill them.

I’m sure you took that, the worst fault of all of GW2’s previous dungeon designs, into consideration when making every trash mob mandatory.

I’m sure I don’t have to tell you the majority of players wont repeat an instance for what you call “story”.

This honestly feels like a step backwards to me. The whole ‘living world’ concept has pretty much meant ‘you don’t have to party to group’. The thing that makes an mmo feel alive is simply that other players are in the same world as you and you can work together or on your own as you want. Instances on the other hand aren’t really alive at all. You hit a button to enter and then you and your party are whisked away into a completely static and detached world. How is that a ‘living world’?

People say ’it’s an mmo of course you should have to group’, but let’s look at applying that logic to other parts of the game and seeing how much worse it becomes. Imagine if all dynamic group events required a 5-man party to activate them first. Imagine if dailies wouldn’t progress unless you were in a party. Imagine if you had to be in a party to join wvw. All of that content would be made immeasurably worse overnight if such changes were made. Now imagine if the living story finale was a dynamic group event chain with a short downtime and a daily reward, similar to maw before it got nerfed (again). No shouting LFG>MWF in map chat, just MWF up and everyone that wants to be a part of it can just do it, regardless of whether they can be divided up into groups of 5. That sounds much more in the spirit of the game than an instance to me.

I’d suggest to make the cutscenes only skippable, if everyone in the group skips it. And do not show who doesn’t hit the skip-button.

The only guarantee people wait for each other in pugs.

HiddenNick.7206:

What you really ask for is the removal of all cooperative play from the game and that’s the kind of thing that would be a deal breaker for huge majority of people! There needs to be content that REQUIRES cooperative play or only few people will continue to play it! That’s because people need to have reasons to play together. That’s a huge thing for every MMO.

Your assertion about a ‘huge majority’ needs facts to back it up, because I don’t think that’s the case.

However, your point of course is spurious, there is a LOT of ‘non-solo’ activity going on all the time and large numbers of people do run instances.

BUT, GW2 IS first and foremost a game where players progress solo, I suggest the vast majority never ‘group up’ for many (any?) instances till they hit 80 and the only ‘co-op’ stuff they do are Group Events: which of course need MULTIPLAYERs to complete.

The issue here, like the Personal Story, is that once again Anet are screwing the not inconsiderable (even if not a majority) of players who, like me, avoid instances because we hate them.

Have as many 5-mans in the game as you like, but DON’T force them as part of core story arcs like this.

MatthewMedina.5419:

We worked hard to ensure that the dungeon experience we have crafted is not simply possible to complete by groups of all different skill levels and compositions

So you’ve created an instance that only highly skilled hardcore instance dwellers can complete.

So you’ve seen the large number of players, like me, who are upset we can’t finish the Personal Story because it’s a forced-group event and gone entirely in the direction of making Living Story even MORE elite.

Really? Is that what you mean, because that’s what you just said?

Next time you add new content kitten say up-front if it’s going to need forced-grouping to complete, so those of use who don’t want to endure PUGs don’t get our hopes up.

MatthewMedina.5419:

In this case, with the culmination of Flame and Frost, given all the tools in our tool kit as developers, a 5-man instance was really the thing that made the most sense for us to pursue, as it enabled us to best tell the conclusion to this story arc in the way that we wanted.

No, there were alternatives, like a WORLD GROUP EVENT!

This is the kind of ‘multiplayer’ activity many of us who hate instances do enjoy, it doesn’t require’ grouping up’ with jerks who abuse you if you make a mistake, but it does create exciting content that clearly isn’t possible to do as a soloable activity.

Kraggy.4169:

So you’ve created an instance that only highly skilled hardcore instance dwellers can complete.

So you’ve seen the large number of players, like me, who are upset we can’t finish the Personal Story because it’s a forced-group event and gone entirely in the direction of making Living Story even MORE elite.

Really? Is that what you mean, because that’s what you just said?

Next time you add new content kitten say up-front if it’s going to need forced-grouping to complete, so those of use who don’t want to endure PUGs don’t get our hopes up.

Alright then. I’ll say it right now:
Guild Wars 2 is a MMO. Assuming you will be able to solo every single thing they add is extremely naive and will most likely never be the case.
So, now you can skip everything for the chance that there will be group content is very high.

Kraggy.4169:

No, there were alternatives, like a WORLD GROUP EVENT!

This is the kind of ‘multiplayer’ activity many of us who hate instances do enjoy, it doesn’t require’ grouping up’ with jerks who abuse you if you make a mistake, but it does create exciting content that clearly isn’t possible to do as a soloable activity.

So, making the whole fight completely pointless because it goes down without any threat at all of losing it? I don’t know if you have actually done the other world events, but none of those are actually showing anything good.
People simply pop up, hit the boss, get the loot and then WP to the next one.
Completely worthless way to tell a story unless it is a One-time event.

@Kojast: Thanks for your lengthy reply. Whilst those could be reasons why other people dislike dungeons they are not my reasons. I have enjoyed dungeons in several other MMO’s but have not in GW2.

Here are my reason’s (succinctly)

- I dislike running past trash in order for them to elastic band back when you get far enough.
- Killing trash with a like minded group is unrewarding and time consuming.
- Gimmicky mechanics like one shot bolders in P1 CoF annoy me.
- Jumping puzzles in dungeons annoy me – the ‘wind’ section of the colossus fractal.
- Many encounters, sections involve running around in circles not killing extra mobs trying to survive long enough to kill the one thing that moves the dungeon on. I find these encounters frustrating.

I could go into more detail on these points. The point I’d really like to make though is it’s not grouping up that I am really against, it’s dungeon gameplay itself

World of Warcraft can get away with finishing off a zone’s story with a dungeon because they are so accessible. With their ease of play and dungeon finder they don’t feel too far removed from solo play anyway.

GW2 can’t get away with topping off solo content with a dungeon because their dungeons are not accessible.

However, two dev’s have popped into this thread already to say they are working on accessibility issues with this dungeon so I hope to be proved wrong here!

lordkrall.7241:

Kraggy.4169:

So you’ve created an instance that only highly skilled hardcore instance dwellers can complete.

So you’ve seen the large number of players, like me, who are upset we can’t finish the Personal Story because it’s a forced-group event and gone entirely in the direction of making Living Story even MORE elite.

Really? Is that what you mean, because that’s what you just said?

Next time you add new content kitten say up-front if it’s going to need forced-grouping to complete, so those of use who don’t want to endure PUGs don’t get our hopes up.

Alright then. I’ll say it right now:
Guild Wars 2 is a MMO. Assuming you will be able to solo every single thing they add is extremely naive and will most likely never be the case.
So, now you can skip everything for the chance that there will be group content is very high.

If GW2 is just another MMO, how different is it from rest of the MMO’s. This game was advertised and mostly designed with casuals in mind. Sure, dungeons are designed for more hardcore players and have nothing to do with the main branch of your story (optional).
a) Finishing your personal story – how is that optional? Why should it be a dungeon where I’m sharing my personal story with 4 other people?
b) Living story – the story arcs so far were told in instances, which could be solo’d. I did them solo, because they’re designed that way and I can’t be LFG’ing forever only to hear crap from elitists. Now why all of a sudden should I be forced to share the end of the story that I’ve been going through alone all while long, with four others?

So you are simply assuming/demanding/wanting to be able to do every single thing in a MMO on your own, without ever having to talk or cooperate with other people?
Why would you even play a MMO in that case?

Nimmi.1650:

I’ll hold out about this one as I have yet to experience it. If it does help this issue, I really hope they decide to revamp all of the other story dungeons to have a stronger and more engaging focus/emphasis on both the story and dungeon aspects. Honestly though, I feel it would have been better to make story modes solo-able and keep explorable to 5-man/group play. The whole personal story experience would have had much better pacing and flow to it that way. That’s just my personal opinion anyways.

Not just your opinion, I agree completely and I hope that they do just that in the future. Story mode dungeons should have been scaled from the start in my opinion. They can make them challenging single player experiences as well as multi-player ones too.

I’m disappointed that they’ve decided to put the finale in as a 5 man instance, requiring 4 other people doesn’t make it feel more epic to me. I just hope you’ve added improvements to your LFG system too so that people aren’t standing around looking for groups.

lordkrall.7241:

So you are simply assuming/demanding/wanting to be able to do every single thing in a MMO on your own, without ever having to talk or cooperate with other people?
Why would you even play a MMO in that case?

LFG – F&F, speedrun, 80+ only, no noobs – when this appears for the first time, tell me how much people cooperate and how awesomely they communicate.

Pirlipat.2479:

LFG – F&F, speedrun, 80+ only, no noobs – when this appears for the first time, tell me how much people cooperate and how awesomely they communicate.

So because a small group of people are elitists and don’t do stuff for the sake of doing it but only for rewards they should remove all grouping? Or am I misunderstanding you?

We already see these kind of LFGs for the other dungeons, and yet it is still very possible to get a normal laid back group as well. Why would this be any different?

No, I am denying that dungeons are always such an awesome experience for everyone and that everything is oh so awesome as a group. What would it take away from you if the dungeon would scale down so it could be soloed? Or is it, that most people would run solo if they are not forced.

I do not mind 5 people dungeons in a game, but I am very disappointed it is supposed to be the end of the living story, because that is cutting me off from that experience.

Pirlipat.2479:

No, I am denying that dungeons are always such an awesome experience for everyone and that everything is oh so awesome as a group. What would it take away from you if the dungeon would scale down so it could be soloed? Or is it, that most people would run solo if they are not forced.

I do not mind 5 people dungeons in a game, but I am very disappointed it is supposed to be the end of the living story, because that is cutting me off from that experience.

Based on the description of the dungeon it actually seems like you need more people since teamwork is REQUIRED (much like how it is impossible to do Ghost Eater in AC on your own after the patch), so how would you do that solo?

lordkrall.7241:

Pirlipat.2479:

LFG – F&F, speedrun, 80+ only, no noobs – when this appears for the first time, tell me how much people cooperate and how awesomely they communicate.

So because a small group of people are elitists and don’t do stuff for the sake of doing it but only for rewards they should remove all grouping? Or am I misunderstanding you?

We already see these kind of LFGs for the other dungeons, and yet it is still very possible to get a normal laid back group as well. Why would this be any different?

Nobody is asking for grouping to be removed. I play with groups, and I also prefer to play solo. Just don’t force me to play a certain way. Scaling should happen with the party size, much like how DE’s are scaled. That will prevent frustrations amongst all kinds of players – newbies and hardcore players alike, so that one doesn’t hinder others’ experience.

lordkrall.7241:

So you are simply assuming/demanding/wanting to be able to do every single thing in a MMO on your own, without ever having to talk or cooperate with other people?
Why would you even play a MMO in that case?

That’s not what’s being said. Not even remotely.

We’re talking about Personal Story and the Living Story not “every single thing”. Both of those stories were designed to be soloed up right until the very end. When you’re suddenly required to find a 5 man dungeon group because that’s somehow more “epic”.

Now I enjoy group content, I enjoy dungeon runs, guild activities, WvW, dynamic events but not everyone wants to do group content all the time. I also like to be able to work on content of my own at my own pace, the Personal and Living Story especially allow and encourage that at least up until the final steps occur and you have to group, the enjoyable pace is no longer an option.

From a story-telling perspective so far it’s been about you, you are the hero, helping people out and getting things done then in the end in order to finish the story you need four other people to come out of the blue. They said the personal story was “all about you”, that last step ruined that illusion for me.

Think of every movie you’ve watched or book you’ve read, the final chapter doesn’t introduce four new characters one of whom just says “hurry” or “quick” every two seconds.

Now, I will play through this with friends and guildies but I would prefer the option of soloing it some day when I have the time as I soloed the rest of the Living Story.

lordkrall.7241:

Why would you even play a MMO in that case?

So that I can play on my own when I want to, and I can play with others when I want to, in the same game. The majority of the time in GW2 you can even do that within the same content.

Playing a multiplayer game =/= wanting to cuddle up with everyone 24/7.

lordkrall.7241:

Pirlipat.2479:

No, I am denying that dungeons are always such an awesome experience for everyone and that everything is oh so awesome as a group. What would it take away from you if the dungeon would scale down so it could be soloed? Or is it, that most people would run solo if they are not forced.

I do not mind 5 people dungeons in a game, but I am very disappointed it is supposed to be the end of the living story, because that is cutting me off from that experience.

Based on the description of the dungeon it actually seems like you need more people since teamwork is REQUIRED (much like how it is impossible to do Ghost Eater in AC on your own after the patch), so how would you do that solo?

AC =/= part of personal story, it’s the story of Destiny’s Edge. My personal story can continue without me ever touching AC or any dungeon. But it can’t end without doing Arah story mode, which is a group activity. Why is personal story all of a sudden a group’s story? Also a lot of people face difficulty finding groups for certain dungeons, even though they are willing to play with groups. Isn’t it preventing them from playing a certain content they wish to play? If there was an option to play them solo, with scaling, they’d atleast be able to do it when they’re not able to find a group.

I ran a cof branch a while back with some friends, with the group leader being a pug-er one of them recruited. I never got to see the final exchange between the NPCs in that branch simply because the leader ended the sequence quickly, looted whatever he was after and then left the group, instantly closing the instance for all of us.

That is the major problem with making dungeons story focused. Unless you’re the leader of the group there will inevitably be trouble. And thanks to the vote kick mechanics, it may well be that you get vote kicked as a leader anyways. This because you’re not playing to the pug-er’s expectations.

phaneo.4597:

AC =/= part of personal story, it’s the story of Destiny’s Edge. My personal story can continue without me ever touching AC or any dungeon. But it can’t end without doing Arah story mode, which is a group activity. Why is personal story all of a sudden a group’s story? Also a lot of people face difficulty finding groups for certain dungeons, even though they are willing to play with groups. Isn’t it preventing them from playing a certain content they wish to play? If there was an option to play them solo, with scaling, they’d atleast be able to do it when they’re not able to find a group.

You missed my point.
I simple stated why it would be more or less impossible to scale it down to solo, since it requires team-work.
You seemed to imply that you would want it to scale in group-size, but if it does REQUIRE team-work scaling it will be impossible. That was what I was trying to say.

Coldtart.4785:

lordkrall.7241:

Why would you even play a MMO in that case?

So that I can play on my own when I want to, and I can play with others when I want to, in the same game. The majority of the time in GW2 you can even do that within the same content.

Playing a multiplayer game =/= wanting to cuddle up with everyone 24/7.

That is ultimately the case and something that a lot of people on this forum need to realise. Not everyone is a 24/7 extroverted social machine. Some of us require down-time. Some me-time to recharge.

The belief that we don’t belong in a MMO because of that is ridiculous and one that, thankfully, ArenaNet don’t share.

Coldtart.4785:

So that I can play on my own when I want to, and I can play with others when I want to, in the same game. The majority of the time in GW2 you can even do that within the same content.

Playing a multiplayer game =/= wanting to cuddle up with everyone 24/7.

So.. having 8 (well 9 with the temporary dungeon here) means "cuddle up with everyone 24/7?
As for the whole game those 8/9 dungeons is about 5% of the whole game, so I don’t see how that would require cuddle up with everyone 24/7 tbh.

Ok, you like dungeons that’s fine I don’t like dungeons that’s fine too, you are happy the living story ends with one, I am not. What else do you want?

I would have liked to see the end of the story. Well, that’s very unlikely to happen for me and this is disappointing for me. That’s it.

lordkrall.7241:

phaneo.4597:

AC =/= part of personal story, it’s the story of Destiny’s Edge. My personal story can continue without me ever touching AC or any dungeon. But it can’t end without doing Arah story mode, which is a group activity. Why is personal story all of a sudden a group’s story? Also a lot of people face difficulty finding groups for certain dungeons, even though they are willing to play with groups. Isn’t it preventing them from playing a certain content they wish to play? If there was an option to play them solo, with scaling, they’d atleast be able to do it when they’re not able to find a group.

You missed my point.
I simple stated why it would be more or less impossible to scale it down to solo, since it requires team-work.
You seemed to imply that you would want it to scale in group-size, but if it does REQUIRE team-work scaling it will be impossible. That was what I was trying to say.

I get what you’re saying. But the basic personal story shouldn’t be depending on a 2nd person, let alone 3 more. Sure, keep optional dungeons group-oriented. If I want the dungeon gear or tokens for legendary, I’ll have no option but to do them with groups and I have no problem with that. But don’t make grouping mandatory for personal stories; or in this case, living story, which is a concept they’re planning to adopt to future content. The concept is fine IMO, but why ruin it by forcing a dungeon in it which requires a 5-man party?

Pirlipat.2479:

I am very disappointed by this decission. Two months of teaser-content, one month with really nice content and then bam hide the end of the story in a dungeon which I can’t play because I wont PUG with some random guys who only care for the shinies and give a … about cutscenes or a story.

Do you know you are a random PUG yourself for every other players ?

People who complain about others players and don’t have the balls to make a five-man dungeon during one hour… you shouldn’t play an mmo

People that won’t do grouped content in an MMO always will cut in their experiences.
Prejudices about PUGs hurt your gameplay. I pug quite a bit, and with a positive attitude, and a large amount of “I do what I want”. mixed together has brought me a good experience 9 out of 10 times.

Bad PUGS? Be a better PUG yourself first. Has always worked for me.

Kraggy.4169:

MatthewMedina.5419:

We worked hard to ensure that the dungeon experience we have crafted is not simply possible to complete by groups of all different skill levels and compositions

So you’ve created an instance that only highly skilled hardcore instance dwellers can complete.

Really? Is that what you mean, because that’s what you just said?

That’s not what it reads, you need to take the whole sentence as one message:

Hello! Thanks for starting this thread. :-)
We worked hard to ensure that the dungeon experience we have crafted is not simply possible to complete by groups of all different skill levels and compositions, but more importantly that it is lots of fun and rewarding for everyone.

Obviously he meant, it’s not only made possible so all group compositions can do it, but also that its rewarding and fun.

(Matthew, you might wanna rewrite that sentence I suppose.)

lordkrall.7241:

You missed my point.
I simple stated why it would be more or less impossible to scale it down to solo, since it requires team-work.
You seemed to imply that you would want it to scale in group-size, but if it does REQUIRE team-work scaling it will be impossible. That was what I was trying to say.

I don’t get that it requires any more teamwork than any other story mode dungeon.

MatthewMedina.5419:

We worked hard to ensure that the dungeon experience we have crafted is not simply possible to complete by groups of all different skill levels and compositions, but more importantly that it is lots of fun and rewarding for everyone.

Now I think some people have misinterpreted that sentence. In that context “not simply” is the same as saying “not only”. Some people seem to think that this means that the dungeon is impossible without some special highly skilled group when he’s trying to say the exact opposite. That it’s accessible to everyone.

MatthewMedina.5419:

I understand the concerns about jumping into a 5-man instance if you’re more accustomed to solo play – in fact as a player I typically share those feelings, so rest assured that such concerns have been and continue to be addressed firsthand by our team!

How exactly they are addressing those concerns when they introduce another 5-man instance to end a story arc remains to be seen but you can be sure it’s not by introducing a dungeon that will require “teamwork” to complete.

So, lets say that ever single part of the Living Story was group only would we still be having this discussion?

The living story have utilized more or less every single part of the PvE world.
Personal story, meta-events, events and now dungeon. It shouldn’t really be a surprise to anyone at this point. Sure, you will have to do something that you might not like to see the end of the story, but keep in mind that people that want to group up have been more or less completely left out most of the game.
It is after all more or less impossible to find someone that want to join you in your personal story instances, most events don’t scale well for big group of people and so on.

Ledha.9640:

Pirlipat.2479:

I am very disappointed by this decission. Two months of teaser-content, one month with really nice content and then bam hide the end of the story in a dungeon which I can’t play because I wont PUG with some random guys who only care for the shinies and give a … about cutscenes or a story.

Do you know you are a random PUG yourself for every other players ?

People who complain about others players and don’t have the balls to make a five-man dungeon during one hour… you shouldn’t play an mmo

Oh, we are becoming insulting. I am aware that I’m PUG for someone else, which is exactely the reason I don’t group that way. Or would you speedrun-guys be happy to have a slow person in your group who actually cares for the story? MMO is forced grouping with random strangers oh thx alot you told me. Actually your attitude is proving my point perfectly.

My dungeon-experiences with PUGs in this game added nothing to my experience at it best. But I got yelled at and I got insulted by random people and even when I’m aware that not everyone in this game is that way (ofc not) I’m not very keen on the risk to have the same stressfull annoying experience again.

lordkrall.7241:

So, lets say that ever single part of the Living Story was group only would we still be having this discussion?

The living story have utilized more or less every single part of the PvE world.
Personal story, meta-events, events and now dungeon. It shouldn’t really be a surprise to anyone at this point. Sure, you will have to do something that you might not like to see the end of the story, but keep in mind that people that want to group up have been more or less completely left out most of the game.
It is after all more or less impossible to find someone that want to join you in your personal story instances, most events don’t scale well for big group of people and so on.

The issue could have been alleviated by having a new dungeon story run in parallel to the living story. Sort of how AC is a side quest to the personal story but not a requirement to understand your own story.

A molten alliance themed dungeon could have been added as a side mission with a solo instance or world content being used to tie up the end of the living story.

This still ticks the boxes of covering all content without having the finale isolated to the more inaccessible form of dungeons.

lordkrall.7241:

So, lets say that ever single part of the Living Story was group only would we still be having this discussion?

Of course not.

lordkrall.7241:

The living story have utilized more or less every single part of the PvE world.
Personal story, meta-events, events and now dungeon. It shouldn’t really be a surprise to anyone at this point. Sure, you will have to do something that you might not like to see the end of the story, but keep in mind that people that want to group up have been more or less completely left out most of the game.
It is after all more or less impossible to find someone that want to join you in your personal story instances, most events don’t scale well for big group of people and so on.

That’s a bizarre non-argument.

• People who want to group aren’t left out of the game at all. They can do everything in the game. Wanting to do solo content in a group doesn’t mean you can’t do it solo. Finally, grouped doesn’t have to mean “in a party”, informal groups form all the time.
• People who don’t want to group (or can’t, for whatever reason) on the other hand cannot do some of the content in the game and are prevented from finishing their story arcs because they end with content that requires a group.

Having difficulty getting a group for content affects everyone.

For me it was a surprise because I thought they’d actually learned from the numerous complaints about them ending the Personal Story with a group step and especially because the previous missions were soloable.

Meh, ANet could save themselves a whole lot of grief if they added the option for having the 4 additional slots filled by “competent” henchmen.

digiowl.9620:

Meh, ANet could save themselves a whole lot of grief if they added the option for having the 4 additional slots filled by “competent” henchmen.

Hardly, since a recurring drama on the GW1 boards was demanding better rewards for groups composed of “real people” vs henchmen, with the same “M in MMO”, “don’t have friends”, “why are you playing a group game” arguments.

The same arguments that happen in every MMO that expands solo play, even while the bulk of them are doing so. Even Everquest 1 and 2 has Henchmen now, and the “M in MMO” crowd had apoplexy regarding that too.

It goes beyond mechanics, they don’t want people “soloing” with hench, it is not “THE WAY”. They want people forced to pug. If there is a parallel solo path, they want more reward. They see their way as the only way, and I don’t see it changing.

Its unfortunate that Anet feels the need to resort to a tired old pug mechanic that has been used to death for 15 or so years. It is not new, it is just another dungeon in a long long list of them.

Well I don’t think designing everything in an MMO solo friendly is the way to go. Sure it makes it so everyone can play the way they want, and that we can all ignore each other and go our own ways and don’t look back on each other.

But, this also happened to GW1, when everything is solo-able, to an extend people will most likely solo it. People that want to group will have even more trouble finding a group (why ask, everything is solo-able, you’re bad if you cant solo). It will hurt the game if every single thing is solo-able.

Also, it’s living story, it’s supposed to give a sense of community. While you can say, yeah but not everyone is interested in grouping or pugging or playing together, I personally believe that getting a group together to tackle certain content is part of an MMO, and perhaps even part of the story.

And especially with temporary content like this, people will want to do this, and it will be popular, which automatically will make it easier to find a group. (This is not to say that a good LFG tool is still very needed.)

While you can say that requiring a group makes it harder to do content on the get go basis, I feel it is a very intregral part of an MMO.

FrizzFreston.5290:

But, this also happened to GW1, when everything is solo-able, to an extend people will most likely solo it. People that want to group will have even more trouble finding a group (why ask, everything is solo-able, you’re bad if you cant solo). It will hurt the game if every single thing is solo-able.

Snipped your Quote to the part I wished to address.

Yes, most of GW1 could be done with Hero/hench, later Heroes. But, the option to group with players never left. Given the choice, people chose not to group, or chose to group with 1 or 2 friends. Forming pugs just became the least popular option, and that should have given ANET pause when designing story content that requires pugs. Contrary to assertions, pug grouping is not as popular as some would have us believe, and GW1 is proof of that.

Pugging died in GW1 because it wasn’t forced, people voluntarily took the other option. Players were given a choice, and made an overwhelming choice away from pugs.

Mandating a singular group only playstyle for content that should be for everyone is a bad move. Fractals, designated group zones are for that.. optional content. Forcing it into general storylines and personal stories, No. It is a step backwards.

‘M’ in MMO; what about the other M? 5-man instances are hardly massively-multiplayer and they sure aren’t living. I used to play an MMO that had 1-4 player scaling for 100% of its content and identical rewards for however many you brought with you. You wanted to solo? Go ahead. Got one friend on you want to play with? Knock yourselves out. Want a guild group? No worries. Just want to do it with anyone? They had a hotjoin for that. It was a near perfect solution.

GW2 has the means to top that though. The dynamic scaling system can scale content for up to 100 players yet we keep falling back into the old exactly 5 players template every other MMO uses. This is supposed to be a living world. Instances are not living. Pre-planned parties are not living.

Ah yeah, I suppose GW1 is a bad example. The system of having everything instanced there lead to it. The only way of making stuff soloable in GW1 was by adding the possibility to doing stuff solo. Which then encompassed all of the game, since everything was instanced. And thus it turned it into a singleplayer game which potentially could be played with your friends. And since it’s the least troublesome way to get stuff done was to grab heroes and henchman people did that.

But this is GW2, and GW2 is an MMO. Which means playing together is key.

In a way the living world story is the story of the world, which means players need to tackle the problems together. In that sense it is not a single player experience, it is multiplayer content. To inforce that, we need to tackle the molten alliance as a group, and that means we have to get our noses in the same direction and deal with the problem at hand.

While you can say, the single player part is important for an MMO, (which is because you don’t always have friends around.) I feel that an MMO should not be build around a being some enhanced single player game.

And for an MMO, having everything solo-able is a step backwards for the MMO itself. There’s no need to coordinate, there’s less sense of community, which is what a game is all about, especially GW2.

EDIT: I gotta agree with that, Coldtart. But since the instance is called “molten dungeon facility” I think entering with 100s of players would feel a little crazy. It does have the notion of a dungeon. and I would see the 5-man squads more as small groups of commandos entering a base of the enemy.

Also we saw what happened with those big events during the ancient Karka attack. (lots and lots of lag and invisible foes.

Shrug. That is your take. I don’t buy games, play games, or purchase game cards for a “community”. I do it for myself, for my own enjoyment.

To me, personally, “community” is the single most overblown aspect of the internet in general, and games in particular. Every game fanset claims to have the best “community” anyway. “Communities” don’t stop games from failing either, SWG? I can log into AoC or Vanguard today and hear raves about their “communities” as well, despite both being down to basically single server games.

Communities don’t make games. Gameplay does. Gameplay retains players, who form these “communities”.

FB is free and is just as much a “community”, sadly.

An MMO is set up as a multiplayer experience, and a social experience. Not a single player experience. To ask everything to be solo-able is crazy when considering that.
Plus you can personally enjoy yourself playing within a group too.

If you guys dont like playing with other people and you wanna do everything on your own, why are you playing an MMO? MMO’s have always been based around team play,playing with freinds,guilds,etc.. If you like playing singleplayer play a singleplayer RPG not a multiplayer game. Im on the side with the dungeons here, I would love to see more dungeons and better dungeons introduced into GW2.

I play DEs with other people, I revive people, I thank people when we ended an event, I help people when I’m asked and I have time and I talk to people. None of those social/multiplayer activities is related to grouping. Any other activity can be done with several people but it does not have to be done. And I personally hate this strong forced grouping if I don’t know the people in advance while I highly appreciate a loose and unforced way to play with others like in DEs.

This game is not a group-dungeon-crawler either. So much about this booohh you don’t wanna play with other people.

And again: noone minds dungeons in general but several people mind the combination of a 5 people dungeon and the story.