Why remove another dungeon?

Why remove another dungeon?

in Flame and Frost

Posted by: marnick.4305

marnick.4305

Warning: long rant.

1/ I never played Tixx’s dungeon, simply because I don’t have time at X-mas. Family is more important than videogames. I’d have loved to play it somewhere in february though…

2/ I played the Mad King Dungeon once, because he’s awesome. I would have repeated him but … no time. It came close to All Saint’s day which is very important to me. Even as an atheist, I will honor my family on that day.

3/ I dabbled in the SAB. I would have loved to master it, but that takes time, time which I don’t really have in one month. I would have loved to master it in my own pace, while still enjoying the game proper. I don’t want to stop playing GW2 entirely for a month, just to get a few achievements. Why is SAB gone?

4/ And now the molten facility … I did it yesterday because I had a spare hour and read it was pretty easy even for pugs. I loved it. I want to do it again. Yet real life is going to interfere a lot in the coming two weeks. I’m happy I did it once, I’ll need a four-leaf-clover to do it twice.

Not just that … these dungeons were the best yet, and all of them are gone. Why? At the very least, put a few of these mechanics into the existing dungeons. The design of the temp dungeons are superb, while the regular ones are pretty bland in comparison (although awesome in comparison with WoW).

But why … why remove another dungeon from the game?

If I can’t play Guild Wars 2 at work, I won’t work in Guild Wars 2 either.
Delayed content is eventually good. Rushed content is eternally bad. ~ Shigeru Miyamoto

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Posted by: Xalugami.2096

Xalugami.2096

I would love to know this too. All these dungeons are fantastic compared to the boring regular ones full of HP sponges.

I recall them mentioning that “temporary content will remain temporary to make it special”. That’s kinda like the same as filling up a museum with all these super unique artifacts, opening it to the public for a week, then setting it ablaze and making sure no one new ever gets to see it again until the grand re-opening where it’s most likely a whole new experience. That’s a lot of wasted stuff.

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Posted by: skullmount.1758

skullmount.1758

I would love to know this too. All these dungeons are fantastic compared to the boring regular ones full of HP sponges.

I recall them mentioning that “temporary content will remain temporary to make it special”. That’s kinda like the same as filling up a museum with all these super unique artifacts, opening it to the public for a week, then setting it ablaze and making sure no one new ever gets to see it again until the grand re-opening where it’s most likely a whole new experience. That’s a lot of wasted stuff.

Love the example. Very fitting. Totally agree, its not really making them special, because people will forget about them later on, especially when something new is released.

Darkhaven server
Please give us a keyring…

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Posted by: hedix.1986

hedix.1986

It’s understandable with “holiday” dungeons – another year will come, there will be a second Halloween or Christmas, another opportunity for this themed content. However, I don’t see how F&F could ever return if completely removed, so the museum analogy is quite fitting.
I’d love to play the Molten Facility more, but RL is quite hectic this month, so I guess that sadly means I’ll have to kiss the jetpack opportunity goodbye.

And why only 2 weeks for this new content? Even SAB was around for a month.

[QQ] – ex RoS, current Piken Square
[DV] – megaboss community

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Posted by: Pifil.5193

Pifil.5193

And why only 2 weeks for this new content? Even SAB was around for a month.

That’s a very good question that needs to be asked and answered, even if that answer is not given to the masses.

I would love to know why the teaser content put in the game in January is left there for months and the grand finale is removed midway through the month it was placed?

I understand there will be a bit of an “Ewok Celebration” in Hoelbrak and Black Citadel for a couple of days afterwards (I look forward to the charr “yub nub” song) but if there isn’t a massive surprise the day after that ends then I cannot see any real justification for removing the content.

The whole “ticking clock” doesn’t do much for me if it counts down to… nothing. Or a new clock.

(edited by Pifil.5193)

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Posted by: Shifted.6912

Shifted.6912

Anet seems to think making stuff time-limited will make people want to play it. I don’t know about others but with SAB the fact that it was time limited actually did the opposite, and I abandoned my idea of farming baubles for the weapons.

I’m not gonna cry about this dungeon being gone (even though the final boss fight is brilliant) but it annoys the skritt out of me that all that development time could’ve been put into something that would stay in the game forever, making it a richer experience.

Instead we get the same situation we’ve had months ago: Other than fractals, there’s not much to do once you got BiS gear.

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Posted by: Milennos.9810

Milennos.9810

Personally, stuff time-limited is a stupid idea. They announce the big patch with a awesome dungeon and write in extremely little character, can’t be played after 2 week after the patch …

This is laziness.

(edited by Moderator)

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Posted by: Turgon.8625

Turgon.8625

It is quite clear that the dungeon will only be here until the 12th, it has been stated several times at several places that it will be time-limited and the actual time when it is gone is posted quite clearly in the patch notes.

Clearly stating that it is only available for this limited time does mitigate that some people will not be able to participate due to R/L constraints.

I should be able to get a few play throughs in but not nearly as much as I would like and I am sure there maybe people in worse positions than I.

It has been the most pleasurable dungeon experience I have had in GW2 so far. The fact that it will be removed does not make it more special to me, it just taints my feelings toward it somewhat.

It may make sense from a story perspective to remove it however is it really that immersion breaking when every dungeon so far has it’s story ‘completed’ but you can then replay it a few moments later?

As a gamer, a MMO player I am used to suspending my disbelief in order to facilitate better gameplay and better content. It’s a worthy trade we have made for years and for good reason.

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Posted by: Vulpis.8063

Vulpis.8063

I’m still wondering how in blazes they’re justifying this to their accounting department. Content takes resources, manpower, time, and above all money to make. In any other MMO, this cost is balanced by the fact that these assets will be in place over a long time, both serving as a draw for new players, as well as continuing players repeating the content (and both spending on the game in some fashion).
Arenanet would be achieving identical results if they took 4 months of their design budget, put it in a trash can, and lit the entire thing on fire. And these are the people NCSoft kicked out Paragon for?

Then again, why should they care what the players think? They already have our money, after all, and despite not getting any more of ours, there’s presumably still enough suckers out there who haven’t learned better yet.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

It makes quite a lot of sense that the dungeon is time-limited as well especially since the dungeon is tied into the whole invasion thing. The fact that they selected the 12th is most likely because they next part of the Living World is starting then (we already know that the victory celebrations will take place starting then and we have hints that our personal nemesis will turn up at that time as well).

Lorewise, by the time that the Molten Alliance starts their invasion, Zhaitan is dead and Orr is cleansed.

Welp, I think that Arah should be closed off now, FOREVER, because, y’know, Zhaitan’s dead! Huzzah!

As for the whole “it’s been posted!” – Let me say this. On May 8th, I’ll be going out of town for 21 days. No ifs ands or buts about it because real life happens – and while out of town, I’ll get no Guild Wars 2 access since my laptop isn’t powerful enough to run it. Now, this means I cannot enjoy the dungeon from the 8th on until its closed – I got lucky, as I’ve already done the dungeon so I got a chance to explore it. However, what if I had to go out of town from April 28th to May 13th? Even if it was announced beforehand, I wouldn’t have a chance of changing when I go out of town, and as such I wouldn’t have a chance to play the dungeon.

Announcing it borehand only helps those who can actually control their schedule fully. Jobs, school, family, and more all influence people’s lives externally, and often we get little choice other than saying “no” and dealing with the consequences – maybe you’ll get fired from your job; maybe you’ll be hated by your family (worse case scenario, disowned). But often, folks don’t have this choice, or don’t see a simple game worth ruining their real life – nor should they. However, this means that they cannot enjoy the content that ArenaNet put effort into.

It’s no different than ANet punishing players for having a life other than playing their game. It’s little else, in fact. And that’ll only hurt them in the long run – or even the short run, as this very thread shows.

Besides, as proven by the content that was given in release still all being present, the new additions can be kept with reason.

Then again, why should they care what the players think? They already have our money, after all, and despite not getting any more of ours, there’s presumably still enough suckers out there who haven’t learned better yet.

They don’t have the money they’d get from gemstore purchases. Nor do they have the money they’d get once expansions come out.

I’m sure they’d change their mind if their profits from the gemstore reduces greatly, or if fewer than expected expansions sell when it comes out. But I doubt such will happen, TBH. Too many players out there willing to cash out for stupid RNG stuff.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: nexxe.7081

nexxe.7081

Those dungeons you listed are Holiday Events. It only makes sense they aren’t available after the holiday is over. The Molten Facility should stay though, since it is not a holiday.

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Posted by: Vulpis.8063

Vulpis.8063

Anet seems to think making stuff time-limited will make people want to play it. I don’t know about others but with SAB the fact that it was time limited actually did the opposite, and I abandoned my idea of farming baubles for the weapons.

I’m not gonna cry about this dungeon being gone (even though the final boss fight is brilliant) but it annoys the skritt out of me that all that development time could’ve been put into something that would stay in the game forever, making it a richer experience.

Instead we get the same situation we’ve had months ago: Other than fractals, there’s not much to do once you got BiS gear.

Yup. For me, it’s done worse than the opposite, actually. April 29, I’m looking forward to the new content and seeing the end of the storyline, and considering plunking down my money for some more cash-store stuff. The 30th…I find that the only way to see the end of the story, or for that matter actually get any final reward for my participation for the previous months, is to run a lousy stinking WoW-raid dungeon (and don’t give me that garbage about it being innovative—with the sole exception of being able to jump, everything in there has already been done in WoW’s boss raids already…not to mention, from the comments I’ve been seeing, even the jumping doesn’t do anything half the time). On top of that, I made the mistake of looking ahead in the wiki and discovering that they did the same thing in the Personal Story, making any progress in that completely worthless.
You know, this is my day off work today. I had been looking forward to having the whole day open to see the end of the story. Even after learning about the dungeon, I still had some mild thoughts of (as someone else had suggested to me) trying to ignore the Stories altogether and just clear zones for exploration. Instead, every time I try to force myself to launch GW2, I have the same feelings as I was trying to force myself to handle rancid feces barehanded.
And these are the people they kicked out Paragon Studios for.

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Posted by: Vulpis.8063

Vulpis.8063

As for the whole “it’s been posted!” – Let me say this. On May 8th, I’ll be going out of town for 21 days. No ifs ands or buts about it because real life happens – and while out of town, I’ll get no Guild Wars 2 access since my laptop isn’t powerful enough to run it. Now, this means I cannot enjoy the dungeon from the 8th on until its closed – I got lucky, as I’ve already done the dungeon so I got a chance to explore it. However, what if I had to go out of town from April 28th to May 13th? Even if it was announced beforehand, I wouldn’t have a chance of changing when I go out of town, and as such I wouldn’t have a chance to play the dungeon.

I might point out that you’re still going to be shafted, because you’re missing the part that’s only running on the 12th to 16th.

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Posted by: Pixelpumpkin.4608

Pixelpumpkin.4608

It wouldn’t bother me so much if this dungeon wasn’t so much better than the regular ones. This is so much more fun :’-(

Also, I am kind of hoping that holiday-themed dungeons (not necessarily with the original rewards) will re-appear for the same holiday a year later – it would still be limited as hell but give players the chance to catch up.

I missed both the Halloween and Christmas dungeons and jumping puzzles, and I’d be super happy if I got another go at them in 2013.

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Posted by: Pennry.9215

Pennry.9215

I don’t mind the temp content. I like seeing things progress and evolve. I can only hope that the concepts and mechanics make there way in to updates for the consistent game.

As for ending in a dungeon, it’s better than a massive world event.

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Posted by: Danomeon.3201

Danomeon.3201

I completely agree, and I’m going to keep commenting on these because I love this game and want to see it flourish.

This new Dungeon contains some of the best dungeon content Arenanet has ever made. The trash had interesting and unique mechanics, the cutscenes and story are interesting and entertaining, and the boss battles are absolutely divine. Old dungeon issues like enemies with excessive health and bosses without mechanics are totally gone, and running through the entire thing is such a blast that I would play this dungeon over and over again for no reward at all.

on the other hand, the launch dungeons are a mess. Enemies absorb way too much health, boss encounters are too drawn out and lack interesting mechanics, and nothing even comes close to what we’ve seen in this new flame and frost dungeon.

so, these things being considered, why is arenanet taking away the better of these dungeons are forcing their own players into running the WORSE of the two options? What MMO intentionally removes its greatest content? How can an MMO expect to grow and build upon itself if its coolest new additions are taken away from players as soon as they are given?

I want to see more new things like the fractals or the lost shore update. give us cool temporary events like the king karka that players can remember and cherish, but also give players new experiences that they can encounter over and over again. Don’t force us to continually play the oldest and weakest content the game has to offer by taking away everything new and shiny!

Is the integrity of the lore REALLY worth removing the best content when one considers that players can still kill Zhaitan every single day if they want to? Is keeping content fresh by introducing new content at a temporary time as if the world is growing really better than just allowing players to decide for themselves when they want to to content? Do you really want the epic, awesome finale to this dungeon to be remembered only in the memories of players and youtube videos? Why are you throwing away the best mechanics in the game and leaving only the mediocre ones?

I’m on my knees, Arenanet. Let us keep this awesome stuff!

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Posted by: Parlourbeatflex.5970

Parlourbeatflex.5970

I cant stop myself commenting on these threads… purely because I think its unbelievably damaging for a dev to throw away (or at least time restrict) content like this. So ill try not to endlessly repeat myself.

And yes, i know it does stink of a tin hat kinda comment, but its interesting to wonder if this isnt some kind of attempt at a content treadmill. The carrot on a stick ride that only lasts for so long, anet promises you will catch the carrot, but you have to do it kitten quick!

But anyway…. I digress.

One thing iv also been thinking is the impact this has on different players.. especially regarding instances. I see alot of people defending anet in this example but purely because they are not that bothered by the dungeon content themselves.
Id love arenanet to gather data on the players that are defending temporary content and how much they actually run it.
The thing is everyone likes something different, some people like arah some hate it for a easy example. So when you release content your hoping to cast a net on a type of player, give them something they personally enjoy and personally keep playing gw2 for.. We have all gotten used to the fact that DE content in itself it quite modular and replacable. Not many people run a certain event more than others for any other reason than reward or coincidence. However after gaining all desirable rewards (again different from person to person), PVE players all pick and choose the dungeons that we personally enjoy. So with that in mind, lets consider what happens when most of the new content is temporary.
What will happen (and i hope anet have thought this through) is that different types of players will enjoy and play different pieces of temporary content but because of the fact the content is temporary, this means they will only be enjoying the game a certain amount of time. The other times the more disgruntled are either complaining in the forums or not playing.

Is this (even if its a generalization) really healthy for the game in the longer term? Ok the payment model means players can pick the game up whenever new content comes out and decide whether its worthy for sticking around for the few weeks its available. However is that going to bring about the stable population some servers need? Not to mention your supposed to be bringing population booms (FREE TRAIL EVERY MONTH ISNT IT OBVIOUS YET?)
I fail to understand the motive and intention behind instanced content being temporary and in my perspective its going to do the game more harm than good. As iv said before im not opposed to living story content… But i dont get why the developers decided to to shift the LS focus to instanced content rather than LIVING BREATHING DYNAMIC EVENTS. The clue is in the name!
If the living story simply introduced players to new dungeons without focusing on them as conclusions to a open world story, dungeons that could even be lore friendly (isnt there supposed to be possibly 100s of these molten facilities anyway?) or another system was implemented to ‘relive’ them OR just keep the dungeon in and as the same as the vanilla dungeons make no excuse lore wise…. Anet i cant tell you how happy i would be to see this potential disaster averted.

@Shifted.6912

Hit the final nail on the head for me. SAB was exactly the same in my experience. Played it once or twice, thought it was AMAZING, didnt wanna play it again coz i knew my progress within it would be lost after it goes. It didnt feel like a waste of time granted, but it sure felt like a massive waste of decent quality content.

(edited by Parlourbeatflex.5970)

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

I might point out that you’re still going to be shafted, because you’re missing the part that’s only running on the 12th to 16th.

Wait, there’s stuff that’s only 12th to 16th?

kitten.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: Curo.2483

Curo.2483

The GW2 team wants this game to have a growing experience, where it is different when logging in at different times of the year. They don’t just want to have a content pool that keeps increasing, so people can just jump in and burn through all the content at once, then get bored and come back 2 years later when there is enough content to last them a week of hardcore grinding. I think they do this for 2 main reason: to stand out from the crowd, and to keep people coming back.

To be honest, for incredibly casual gamers that only play a few hours on a weekend or something similar, there is enough content in the game already to keep you going forever. So to the OP: if your time is as limited as you say, worry about the rest of the game before you worry about the things you are missing.

Plus there’s always a possibility that popular old content may be re-released in Fractal format. Also GW1 had a “wintersday in July”, so you may see that content again. Plus we know SAB will most likely return.

Curo Lunesque – “Concerned Citizen and Community Builder”
NSP – northernshiverpeaks.org

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Posted by: Pickmansmodel.1298

Pickmansmodel.1298

I’m disappointed too.

Like many people, I can’t play the game every day. I’ve been trying to complete all the F&F events, but I am travelling around for the next two weeks. Last night was my only opportunity to play the dungeon, and a fatal bug broke the game in the penultimate section.

I understand that bugs happen in new content, and sometimes it takes a while to fix things, but it is really disappointing when the new events are available for such a short time.

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Posted by: MLinni.6109

MLinni.6109

I have to agree. Content as awesome as the Molten Weapons Facility should be a permanent addition to the game. Even if the Molten Alliance will be wiped out sooner or later, a few of them might always try to ….rekindle…. their efforts to make everyone’s lives a molten hell.
Change the dialogue of Braham and Rox in the beginning a bit so they work out of the F&F context and they’ll be Molten Facility destroyers forever.
I certainly don’t hope to see a condensed version of this dungeon as a fractal. It’s too good on its own. And two weeks for all the developer effort are a waste of all that time.

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Posted by: MakJulos.6530

MakJulos.6530

I think it is a pity that great instances disappear from game, so many miss out on good stuff from this, but….i like it also- if you jump on the game in the beginning and play it in a dedicated way then you’re not missing out on anything, because you were there to play it!

It is cool imo becoming a “veteran” than can say “yeah i got this odd item from XXXXXX event back in 20XX, awesome fun, you should’ve been there”- surely there are newer players just think it’s unfair, but- i was there, they weren’t!

Ah well, i am torn when it comes to this, it IS a pity not all get to have a go at fun stuff like this- can only hope Arenanet keeps the cool stuff coming so that new players also get their share of nice events.

Swedish ex-SWG dinosaur, cheez doodles ftw!

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Posted by: Manasa Devi.7958

Manasa Devi.7958

It makes quite a lot of sense that the dungeon is time-limited as well especially since the dungeon is tied into the whole invasion thing. The fact that they selected the 12th is most likely because they next part of the Living World is starting then (we already know that the victory celebrations will take place starting then and we have hints that our personal nemesis will turn up at that time as well).

It makes no sense given that content such as the storymode dungeons, is also tied to a progressing story. Slapping the label “living” on it doesn’t make it “make sense”, it just drives home the fact that there’s little sense to go around in every other part of the game, where story segments can be played out of order to the heart’s content.

It’s just an arbitrary decision to do things differently, and a very unfortunate one for people who can’t, for whatever reason, indulge in playing their fill of this content during the time allowed for it.

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Posted by: Manasa Devi.7958

Manasa Devi.7958

So.. how would you explain this dungeon if it remained after the Flame and Frost content is gone?
“Oh, there are some prisoners here in a factory made by two races that we had no idea where working together, and we need to help these two completely random strangers that we have never seen nor heard about before to free them!”

How do you explain going into an early story dungeon and helping to get Destiny’s Edge back together in order to go and kill Zhaitan, months after they already fought beside you while you killed Zhaitan?

I’ll take your explanation and apply it the the F&F dungeon.

Unless they let ALL of the Flame and Frost remain it would make very little sense, and if they did let all the content remain it wouldn’t be very living, would it?

Who cares about a tiny speck of the game not making sense when a vast chunk of the game doesn’t make sense to begin with? That’s like worrying about a broken fingernail after you lost both hands.

(edited by Manasa Devi.7958)

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Posted by: Pickmansmodel.1298

Pickmansmodel.1298

I don’t think story telling is arenanets strong point. I didn’t think the R&D story was much better than personal story.

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Posted by: lordkrall.7241

lordkrall.7241

How do you explain going into an early story dungeon and helping to get Destiny’s Edge back together in order to go and kill Zhaitan, months after they already fought beside you while you killed Zhaitan?

I’ll take your explanation and apply it the the F&F dungeon.

Who cares about a tiny speck of the game not making sense when a vast chunk of the game doesn’t make sense to begin with? That’s like worrying about a broken fingernail after you lost both hands.

The story mode dungeons are locked in time so to speak. They all take place at a specific time, therefore you can replay that story.
That is not the same thing though.
At least one of the Destiny’s Edge member are already known to you, while Braham and Rox is completely unknown to someone that have not done Flame and Frost.

I would say most things in the game makes quite a bit of sense, but that might be just me.

Krall Bloodsword – Mesmer
Krall Peterson – Warrior
Piken Square

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Posted by: Manasa Devi.7958

Manasa Devi.7958

How do you explain going into an early story dungeon and helping to get Destiny’s Edge back together in order to go and kill Zhaitan, months after they already fought beside you while you killed Zhaitan?

I’ll take your explanation and apply it the the F&F dungeon.

Who cares about a tiny speck of the game not making sense when a vast chunk of the game doesn’t make sense to begin with? That’s like worrying about a broken fingernail after you lost both hands.

The story mode dungeons are locked in time so to speak. They all take place at a specific time, therefore you can replay that story.
That is not the same thing though.
At least one of the Destiny’s Edge member are already known to you, while Braham and Rox is completely unknown to someone that have not done Flame and Frost.

I would say most things in the game makes quite a bit of sense, but that might be just me.

I don’t know if it’s just you, but it’s certainly not me. Dungeons being “locked in time” makes zero sense. Why can some dungeons be “locked in time” while others can’t?

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Posted by: lordkrall.7241

lordkrall.7241

I don’t know if it’s just you, but it’s certainly not me. Dungeons being “locked in time” makes zero sense. Why can some dungeons be “locked in time” while others can’t?

Because they are not directly connected to outside influence? And the main characters are already introduced?

If you had done/read nothing of Flame & Frost, do you think that the Molten Dungeon would have made any sense whatsoever?
You would have an alliance of foes that you had no idea existed, and you are helping two people that clearly knows you but you have never seen them before in your life.

Krall Bloodsword – Mesmer
Krall Peterson – Warrior
Piken Square

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Posted by: Manasa Devi.7958

Manasa Devi.7958

The main characters in the main story dungeons are only already introduced to your character if you’ve played the content that introduces them.

Just like the main characters in the Flame and Frost dungeon are only already introduced to your character if you’ve played the content that introduces them.

The only difference is, the main story content is always available, the F&F lead-in to the dungeon won’t be.

Ok, so you’ve made a case for the F&F lead-ins to remain available as well, not for the removal of the F&F dungeon. Perhaps the cinematic introductions to Rox & Braham could be incorporated in the dungeon loading process, just like the info-dump we get at the start of all the other dungeons.

Nothing has to do with anything making sense. It’s all just a matter of game designers deciding how they want things to be.

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Posted by: lordkrall.7241

lordkrall.7241

The main characters in the main story dungeons are only already introduced to your character if you’ve played the content that introduces them.

Just like the main characters in the Flame and Frost dungeon are only already introduced to your character if you’ve played the content that introduces them.

The only difference is, the main story content is always available, the F&F lead-in to the dungeon won’t be.

Ok, so you’ve made a case for the F&F lead-ins to remain available as well, not for the removal of the F&F dungeon. Perhaps the cinematic introductions to Rox & Braham could be incorporated in the dungeon loading process, just like the info-dump we get at the start of all the other dungeons.

Nothing has to do with anything making sense. It’s all just a matter of game designers deciding how they want things to be.

Actually I have yet to find a single race that does NOT introduce the Destiny’s Edge character for your race in the introduction (which can’t be skipped), so everyone HAVE seen their race’s representative before.

Krall Bloodsword – Mesmer
Krall Peterson – Warrior
Piken Square

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Posted by: Manasa Devi.7958

Manasa Devi.7958

Your race’s representative isn’t present at the start of all dungeons. Plenty of dungeons have the potential to feature only character you’ve never met, if you don’t bother with the personal story.

Poor dodge though, picking a knit and not addressing my real point, which was:

“Nothing has to do with anything making sense. It’s all just a matter of game designers deciding how they want things to be.”

Why remove another dungeon?

in Flame and Frost

Posted by: Pifil.5193

Pifil.5193

Your race’s representative isn’t present at the start of all dungeons. Plenty of dungeons have the potential to feature only character you’ve never met, if you don’t bother with the personal story.

Poor dodge though, picking a knit and not addressing my real point, which was:

“Nothing has to do with anything making sense. It’s all just a matter of game designers deciding how they want things to be.”

That’s ultimately it.

It makes no more and no less sense to have this stick around that it does to have other dungeons stick around. Saying it’s ok that the other dungeons stick around because they’re “stuck in time” as if that’s some kind of magic phrase is ridiculous.

The point of dungeons is to provide replayable content. Their existence in the world, and their repeatable nature (and indeed the repeatable nature of most content in this game), is explained by the fact that it is a game and it’s repeatable so that people have content to play through. That’s all the explanation their continued existence requires.

Why remove another dungeon?

in Flame and Frost

Posted by: MrIllusion.5304

MrIllusion.5304

There are many ways to wrap the story around the content. In GW1 you had the scrying pool to view past cut scenes. Anet can easily have Rox and Braham function as storytellers after the conclusion of FaF.

You relive the events in their eyes. But because you weren’t actually there (didnt take part in the event) you lose out on the titles and special rewards. But you still get to run the dungeon.

The other way would be to keep the dungeon but change the context. The Molten Facility is still there but the Molten Alliance has been crushed. The dungeon has new occupants (maybe Inquest took over) and they have succeeded in replicating the mobs in the original dungeon (cyborg Berserker and golem Firestorm).

Why remove another dungeon?

in Flame and Frost

Posted by: soulfoot.1697

soulfoot.1697

It was my hope that we could see explorable modes of this dungeon show up after the event

Why remove another dungeon?

in Flame and Frost

Posted by: Tinni.4351

Tinni.4351

I would love to know this too. All these dungeons are fantastic compared to the boring regular ones full of HP sponges.

I recall them mentioning that “temporary content will remain temporary to make it special”. That’s kinda like the same as filling up a museum with all these super unique artifacts, opening it to the public for a week, then setting it ablaze and making sure no one new ever gets to see it again until the grand re-opening where it’s most likely a whole new experience. That’s a lot of wasted stuff.

Except that museums too have temporary exhibits that are often better or just more interesting then the normal exhibits. I mean, right now the British Museum is running the temporary exhibit “Life and death in Pompeii and Herculaneum” until the September 29th but I am pretty booked-up and apparently I have to book in advance and can’t just decide on a weekend to go see it. So am I supposed to ask the British Museum to make this exhibit permanent?

Special dungeons are temporary exhibits in a museum. Enjoy them while you can and if you can’t… well we all have to make choices and our choices usually mean we miss out on X in order to enjoy Y.

My brain is shagging under the weight of changes… having six characters was not a good idea!

Why remove another dungeon?

in Flame and Frost

Posted by: StarNightz.8496

StarNightz.8496

As a new player to gw2….im having a difficult time starting these fnf quests

Kimditcher

Why remove another dungeon?

in Flame and Frost

Posted by: Tranc.6780

Tranc.6780

Except that museums too have temporary exhibits that are often better or just more interesting then the normal exhibits. I mean, right now the British Museum is running the temporary exhibit “Life and death in Pompeii and Herculaneum” until the September 29th but I am pretty booked-up and apparently I have to book in advance and can’t just decide on a weekend to go see it. So am I supposed to ask the British Museum to make this exhibit permanent?

Special dungeons are temporary exhibits in a museum. Enjoy them while you can and if you can’t… well we all have to make choices and our choices usually mean we miss out on X in order to enjoy Y.

Except it generally costs money for museums to keep a special exhibit open, and the exhibit is temporary because the artifacts need to be moved to another location so a different museum can host them. These reasons are completely irrelevant to why the new dungeon must be removed.

For those who want a changing experience, if the dungeon were persistent simply stop playing it and your world will be the same as if it had been removed. On the other hand, for those who have college exams, or are on vacation, on business trips, have family in town, are getting married, or giving birth, etc. keeping the temporary content around makes all the difference.

-Tranc

Why remove another dungeon?

in Flame and Frost

Posted by: Jamais vu.5284

Jamais vu.5284

It’d be a legit waste of time to explain why making it temporary has it’s benefits, and I’m really not in the business for this because the devs themselves already know very well why. I couldn’t care less about convincing one or two random forum posters.

So I’d just like to use this thread to confirm to every passing dev reading it that not every gamer of the silent majority thinks this is a horrible idea. Hell, the only reason I’m posting right now (and did some Guild missions, and did some sPvP, and levelled a character and generally was active a bit) is because the dungeon is temporary. Because if it wasn’t, I wouldn’t have logged in till the first expansion and only played the by-now deserted dungeon then, together with all the added content updates.

Why remove another dungeon?

in Flame and Frost

Posted by: Tinni.4351

Tinni.4351

Except it generally costs money for museums to keep a special exhibit open, and the exhibit is temporary because the artifacts need to be moved to another location so a different museum can host them. These reasons are completely irrelevant to why the new dungeon must be removed.

For those who want a changing experience, if the dungeon were persistent simply stop playing it and your world will be the same as if it had been removed. On the other hand, for those who have college exams, or are on vacation, on business trips, have family in town, are getting married, or giving birth, etc. keeping the temporary content around makes all the difference.

-Tranc

But there is no proof that you or the OP will do the content next month if you are not doing it this month. As Jamais vu.5284 put it, temporary content gets people to log on and actually do the content while it can be done.

Guild Wars has an “end point” – the personal story missions. Once you have reached the end of the personal story mission you can, in theory, leave your character and not lose out on much. If you leave your character once they are full exotic, you really are “done”. Right now, the only penalty for not logging on everyday is loss of Laurels and thus loss of access to ascended gear. But if you already have 6 ascended gear, that’s not a penalty that applies to you either.

So the ONLY reason for you to log on this month is the limited time content. Yes there will be content I miss because I have something more important on during whatever time the content is on. But that’s life! However I assure if that the devs know what they are doing and the reason they are doing timed content is because they know the timed content will increase connectivity for the month and do not kid yourself, while some of the people would indeed to the content later if they could although they can’t do it immediately, the fast majority who cannot find the time this month, will not find the time next month or the month after that. Because something will always come-up!

Keeping the content around will not increase the number of people who do the content. It would actually decrease the number of people who do the content because the motivation to experience it will not be there.

To continue with the museum analogue, there are many people who live in London but who have never been to the British museum. It’s not that they do not want to or are not interested it is that they can never find the time or when deciding what to do on a weekend, they might always seem to decide on something else. However, if a exhibit came that they really wanted to see, it would motivate them to not put off the visit.

Likewise, JC Penny experimented with a no coupon, non-inflated pricing strategy but it failed because without the motivation of catching a sale, people were not purchasing NOW and putting it off for later AND there was no evidence they were buying it later. This also applies to GW, OP cannot do the dungeon now because he has other things on. Who is to say he’ll ever have enough time, especially if Anet keeps adding content to the game. Would he really go back and do this dungeon when with this finite leisure time he can do something new? I don’t think so.

My brain is shagging under the weight of changes… having six characters was not a good idea!

Why remove another dungeon?

in Flame and Frost

Posted by: Danomeon.3201

Danomeon.3201

Except it generally costs money for museums to keep a special exhibit open, and the exhibit is temporary because the artifacts need to be moved to another location so a different museum can host them. These reasons are completely irrelevant to why the new dungeon must be removed.

For those who want a changing experience, if the dungeon were persistent simply stop playing it and your world will be the same as if it had been removed. On the other hand, for those who have college exams, or are on vacation, on business trips, have family in town, are getting married, or giving birth, etc. keeping the temporary content around makes all the difference.

-Tranc

But there is no proof that you or the OP will do the content next month if you are not doing it this month. As Jamais vu.5284 put it, temporary content gets people to log on and actually do the content while it can be done.

The issue is that, while temporary content forces people to do it in the short run in order to experience it, it also limits future players in that they are restricted only to old content. The base of guild Wars 2 is a good game, but this new flame and frost dungeon is a NEW level of quality. By making it temporary and taking it away, unless a new dungeon in currently making its brief cycle players are left with only the worst content that the game has to offer!

In addition to this, new content will ALWAYS be popular regardless of how long it sticks around! Look at the fractals! It was wildly popular the second it made its big debut, and players who enjoy it can still enjoy it today. Would the benefit of more players playing the fractals at launch really be worth the entire dungeon being taken away in a month? Of course not! Long term content allows players who want to enjoy that content to enjoy it when they wish. Players who get tired of the content can simply choose not to play.

Finally, in regards to the ‘continuity’ argument: Is a little bit of living story continuity in the form of a single dungeon existing after lore has passed it REALLY worth the best piece of content Arenanet has ever put out being taken away from the hands of the players? Is lore really so important to this game that it trumps good content? Is this game’s story actually worth more than the game itself?

This game’s content cycle is questionable at the moment. If new content were constant, and there was ALWAYS something new in action, this temporary content would be fine. But the problem is that this does not exist. When this flame and frost dungeon is taken away, players will be left waiting until the next patch with nothing new at all to tide them over. The cool new dungeon will be history, and we’ll be left with nothing but the old dungeons that pale in comparison to this new content. Essentially, we’ll be stuck with old content while we wait for the actually good stuff to make a return.

Why remove another dungeon?

in Flame and Frost

Posted by: Xalugami.2096

Xalugami.2096

The main viewpoint I look at (which I believe has been said), is that if a player returns next month after leaving in October and wants to see how much the game has grown, there’s 1 map lacking the lore where it came from, Fractals, fixes/UI additions, and some new skins & currencies. That’s not a whole lot for half a year compared to what we did get, and it could lead that person into leaving for a longer time period as it seems like not much progress is being made.
The other way to look at it is since there’s time restrictions on this stuff, some people could get super overwhelmed and realize this isn’t the game for them since all this content is available for a limited time only.

I’m definitely all for holiday events coming & going year round; but small story arcs like this would make great “side quests” (I came from playing mostly RPGs, not much MMO experience, not sure if there’s a MMO term for that) especially how well designed this is. With what little I played of GW1, the way you can do the tutorial quests for the other campaigns as a Prophecies character was really well done and could make perfect sense in GW2. I wouldn’t mind if the rewards are turned off for the “re-telling of” either, that would allow people who were there to get the shiny prize, and the people that are late to the party still get the content.

I mean, this wouldn’t be as bad if they actually added more permanent playable content. If there was a steady addition of new permanent quests alongside these slow, short temporary changes, it wouldn’t be so bad watching them go away. But since this is the newest content since November (technically December, but that’s all gone, so November was the most recent permanent world update), and it’s leaving, it just feels empty

Also at the above comment of “Being temporary gets more people to play it immediately”. I agree with this, however imagine if it never ever comes back, imagine how many people a year from now get the game and get denied of all this content with no way to play it. I can understand hiding the special rewards, but the entire mass of content? It just doesn’t sit well (I haven’t brought this up on the forums before since I figure holiday events will come back, and Lost Shores technically stuck around).
After all, this is still a video game, and it’s meant to be played.

Why remove another dungeon?

in Flame and Frost

Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

The GW2 team wants this game to have a growing experience, where it is different when logging in at different times of the year. They don’t just want to have a content pool that keeps increasing, so people can just jump in and burn through all the content at once, then get bored and come back 2 years later when there is enough content to last them a week of hardcore grinding. I think they do this for 2 main reason: to stand out from the crowd, and to keep people coming back.

True, and reasonable, however, I think that the “big climaxes” should be kept. A degree of “difference” being made per month is a good thing, however, when all of those “differences” are subsequently removed, you’ll eventually be left with only those little tidbits to do each month, even if you don’t show up for a year. And that’s what Anet’s doing as it seems. Sure, The Lost Shores kept Southsun Cove, but what is there really to do now that The Lost Shores meta is over? Pretty much zilch – not even map completion rewards are provided.

They can keep their “ever evolving world” without removing all the major things provided each content update. Change what the heralds say, remove the streams of refugees and the refugee camps, remove the dialogue catering to the event or evolve it further, but keep the events and the dungeon, and things would be great. You keep most content, but the “feel” of the game still changes at the same rate.

Besides, under their explanation of their goal – the ever evolving world concept, where the world of Guild Wars 2 progresses on a monthly basis into the future, it’s weird as all hell that while we cannot access, for example, Molten Facility next year – we’ll still be able to access the fight with Zhaitan, despite it happening before in the lore timeline, and despite the MF dungeon being better received.

It’s a good concept, but their practice is flawed.

I think a better practice for doing their concept would be to have content that goes away sometime after a player begins it – like how the personal story cannot be redone on the same character. And this to be a retroactive change. Though the issue then lies with dungeons, in how some players can access it while other cannot at the time. So its still flawed.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

Why remove another dungeon?

in Flame and Frost

Posted by: Xalugami.2096

Xalugami.2096

Besides, under their explanation of their goal – the ever evolving world concept, where the world of Guild Wars 2 progresses on a monthly basis into the future, it’s weird as all hell that while we cannot access, for example, Molten Facility next year – we’ll still be able to access the fight with Zhaitan, despite it happening before in the lore timeline, and despite the MF dungeon being better received.

It’s a good concept, but their practice is flawed.

So much this.

Also, you’re the Konig Des Todes? Like, from the GW2g Durmand Priory forums? I’ve always been too shy to make an account over there, but I wanted to say I love reading your lore posts as you seem so level-headed and almost always have facts to back yourself up; not to mention I like your thoughts on lore speculation.
lol sorry, I’ve been kinda lurking around there since launch, guess you can say I’m a fan of your posts.

Back on topic though, I do agree that it’s so wild that they would remove their greatest dungeon to date because of an incohesive reason. If all dungeons are a relivable point-in-time, yet they’re removing this because it wont fit the current timeline, all that makes is a contradiction with itself.
If we could at least know if a permanent dungeon utilizing these mechanics is in the works, or if the dungeon itself is making a return appearance yearly (so doubtful), or even if we can get a voice-mod to change all our quotes with the voice of the weapons testing engineer; the loss wouldn’t have such a huge impact.


I would pay so much money for a Dredge voicepack though… oh man, imagine if he voiced over GLaDOS in Portal or any other game that uses a narrative as it guides you along and gave it his own Dredge-y feel… all of my money would be yours.

Why remove another dungeon?

in Flame and Frost

Posted by: Vulpis.8063

Vulpis.8063

The GW2 team wants this game to have a growing experience, where it is different when logging in at different times of the year. They don’t just want to have a content pool that keeps increasing, so people can just jump in and burn through all the content at once, then get bored and come back 2 years later when there is enough content to last them a week of hardcore grinding. I think they do this for 2 main reason: to stand out from the crowd, and to keep people coming back.

To be honest, for incredibly casual gamers that only play a few hours on a weekend or something similar, there is enough content in the game already to keep you going forever. So to the OP: if your time is as limited as you say, worry about the rest of the game before you worry about the things you are missing.

Plus there’s always a possibility that popular old content may be re-released in Fractal format. Also GW1 had a “wintersday in July”, so you may see that content again. Plus we know SAB will most likely return.

Umm…you seem to be contradicting yourself here. A growing experience would mean more and more total content as time goes on. This does exactly the opposite—nothing is added of any lasting value, it’s just a revolving door of throwaway temporary content. Then again, I suppose you could consider letting your hair grow out and cutting it all off as ‘growing’—which is pretty much the same as what this is.

Why remove another dungeon?

in Flame and Frost

Posted by: Vulpis.8063

Vulpis.8063

Hmm. People have been commenting on temporary content being used as an attempt to cause short-term excitement to get players to play ‘now’. The problem with this is that there’s a flipside to this as well, especially if Arenanet continues to hand future ‘Living’ content the same way as they did this one—instead of getting people to play, it will cause people to avoid playing, both because a) spammy crowds looking for help with every little findable and thing, and b) knowing from past experience that Arenanet will get pants-on-head-stupid with the very last critical portion, and that unless you’re part of the Chosen Elite Play Type, you might as well not bother with it at all as you won’t get anything from doing the content.

As far as the ‘I was there and you weren’t, so you’ll never ever be able to get one of these nyah-nyah!‘…am I the only one to consider this a bad thing, and yet another way to discourage new players?
I’m repeatedly reminded of my experiences with Myst Uru/Uru Online/Myst Online (as the various attempts to make the thing successful have changed names…). I was in some of the earlier testing, but was pushed out due to the hardware requirements changing (and my system not meeting the new standard). Myst is a very, very lore-based game…and by the time I had the opportunity to join in much later, there had been so much lore built up, and so little actual record of it outside of ‘Lemme tell you about it, because I was there’ veterans that it was a very, uncomfortable experience, and I never did manage to ‘catch up’. Of course, these days the place is running in maintinance mode on a Cyan-run server, with maybe a handful of people actually connecting over the course of a month…

Why remove another dungeon?

in Flame and Frost

Posted by: Sollith.3502

Sollith.3502

Well how about Anet just meeting players in the middle? I like the idea that the content is temporary and only happens once over a certain period(s) of time, but it’s also a shame to see such good content just disappear.

I suggest that they adapt it a bit; make the “story mode” version of it end here, removing the more unique items and stuff, and tweak the dungeon a bit to make it more of an explorable one. Remove the unique limited time items (keeping them unique and limited lol) and replace it with some more generic reward potential. My suggestion would be to add Molten tokens and allow these to be exchanged for somewhat generic, albeit useful, items related to the theme of the dungeon (fiery heavy metal stuff stuff ); maybe stuff like a grab bag like the orrian jewel box, but have it loaded with themed items ( everything from junk to molten lodestones, etc.) a tonic that sets you on fire… uh and other… stuff.

Keep the bosses and stuff, maybe even add an additional path to it (maybe finally add a jump puzzle path to a dungeon? I would love a more Ocarina of Time Zeldish kind of dungeon with puzzles and obstacles and a few bosses to break up the puzzle solving), but keep the instance.

Why remove another dungeon?

in Flame and Frost

Posted by: Vulpis.8063

Vulpis.8063

Well how about Anet just meeting players in the middle? I like the idea that the content is temporary and only happens once over a certain period(s) of time, but it’s also a shame to see such good content just disappear.

I suggest that they adapt it a bit; make the “story mode” version of it end here, removing the more unique items and stuff, and tweak the dungeon a bit to make it more of an explorable one. Remove the unique limited time items (keeping them unique and limited lol) and replace it with some more generic reward potential. My suggestion would be to add Molten tokens and allow these to be exchanged for somewhat generic, albeit useful, items related to the theme of the dungeon (fiery heavy metal stuff stuff ); maybe stuff like a grab bag like the orrian jewel box, but have it loaded with themed items ( everything from junk to molten lodestones, etc.) a tonic that sets you on fire… uh and other… stuff.

Keep the bosses and stuff, maybe even add an additional path to it (maybe finally add a jump puzzle path to a dungeon? I would love a more Ocarina of Time Zeldish kind of dungeon with puzzles and obstacles and a few bosses to break up the puzzle solving), but keep the instance.

Actually, (and as I’ve posted elsewhere by now) I quite agree with you—to be a Living world, there needs to be permanant content alongside the transient. My suggestion here? Have Rox and Branwen be permanant NPCs in their respective hometowns—when talked to, they give the options of giving you a synopsis of the F&F event, send you to a version of their related instance mission (Cragstead/Hatchery, edited to reflect that this is another, similar location, not the one one you actually went to in the event—in the case of Rox, the whole interaction with Frostbite would have to be edited. :-) ), or a version of the Molten Factory dungeon (again, edited to reflect it being a trip to a subsequent factory, not the first one seen in the event).

Why remove another dungeon?

in Flame and Frost

Posted by: skullmount.1758

skullmount.1758

Hmm. People have been commenting on temporary content being used as an attempt to cause short-term excitement to get players to play ‘now’. The problem with this is that there’s a flipside to this as well, especially if Arenanet continues to hand future ‘Living’ content the same way as they did this one—instead of getting people to play, it will cause people to avoid playing, both because a) spammy crowds looking for help with every little findable and thing, and b) knowing from past experience that Arenanet will get pants-on-head-stupid with the very last critical portion, and that unless you’re part of the Chosen Elite Play Type, you might as well not bother with it at all as you won’t get anything from doing the content.

As far as the ‘I was there and you weren’t, so you’ll never ever be able to get one of these nyah-nyah!‘…am I the only one to consider this a bad thing, and yet another way to discourage new players?
I’m repeatedly reminded of my experiences with Myst Uru/Uru Online/Myst Online (as the various attempts to make the thing successful have changed names…). I was in some of the earlier testing, but was pushed out due to the hardware requirements changing (and my system not meeting the new standard). Myst is a very, very lore-based game…and by the time I had the opportunity to join in much later, there had been so much lore built up, and so little actual record of it outside of ‘Lemme tell you about it, because I was there’ veterans that it was a very, uncomfortable experience, and I never did manage to ‘catch up’. Of course, these days the place is running in maintinance mode on a Cyan-run server, with maybe a handful of people actually connecting over the course of a month…

You’re not the only one that thinks “‘I was there and you weren’t, so you’ll never ever be able to get one of these nyah-nyah!’” is a bad thing. I know I’m already hating seeing other people with the GS chainsaw/staff scythe skin from Halloween, even though I was there and played all the Halloween content.

Well how about Anet just meeting players in the middle? I like the idea that the content is temporary and only happens once over a certain period(s) of time, but it’s also a shame to see such good content just disappear.

I suggest that they adapt it a bit; make the “story mode” version of it end here, removing the more unique items and stuff, and tweak the dungeon a bit to make it more of an explorable one. Remove the unique limited time items (keeping them unique and limited lol) and replace it with some more generic reward potential. My suggestion would be to add Molten tokens and allow these to be exchanged for somewhat generic, albeit useful, items related to the theme of the dungeon (fiery heavy metal stuff stuff ); maybe stuff like a grab bag like the orrian jewel box, but have it loaded with themed items ( everything from junk to molten lodestones, etc.) a tonic that sets you on fire… uh and other… stuff.

Keep the bosses and stuff, maybe even add an additional path to it (maybe finally add a jump puzzle path to a dungeon? I would love a more Ocarina of Time Zeldish kind of dungeon with puzzles and obstacles and a few bosses to break up the puzzle solving), but keep the instance.

Actually, (and as I’ve posted elsewhere by now) I quite agree with you—to be a Living world, there needs to be permanant content alongside the transient. My suggestion here? Have Rox and Branwen be permanant NPCs in their respective hometowns—when talked to, they give the options of giving you a synopsis of the F&F event, send you to a version of their related instance mission (Cragstead/Hatchery, edited to reflect that this is another, similar location, not the one one you actually went to in the event—in the case of Rox, the whole interaction with Frostbite would have to be edited. :-) ), or a version of the Molten Factory dungeon (again, edited to reflect it being a trip to a subsequent factory, not the first one seen in the event).

That pretty much what any of us want. We just want at least some of the content to be kittening permanent. Stuff like the events on the map do need to go away after the arc of the living story is done, but there needs to be some kind of lasting content. I’m pretty sure we haven’t/can’t have destroyed all the MA facilities, so theres a reason it stays. Sure the MA isn’t so much of a problem now, but there has to be remnants of them still. Or make it go you’re route and make it a history lesson. Sure they won’t get to experience the open world events, but at least they would be able to experience the bigger story parts of it.

Darkhaven server
Please give us a keyring…

(edited by skullmount.1758)

Why remove another dungeon?

in Flame and Frost

Posted by: hedix.1986

hedix.1986

Welp, I think that Arah should be closed off now, FOREVER, because, y’know, Zhaitan’s dead! Huzzah!

Quoting because this is an excellent example of how pointless it is to remove significant story content. Especially after only 12 days.

It’s no different than ANet punishing players for having a life other than playing their game. It’s little else, in fact. And that’ll only hurt them in the long run – or even the short run, as this very thread shows.

I got the same feeling. I’ve been playing GW2 since December, made a decent progress, but I don’t have all that much gameplay time for serious money grinding or obsessive farming of say tokens for ascended gear so that I may enjoy Fractals.
I quite like the game, its setting and its story, yet even though ts been months since I’ve gotten to lvl80, it still feels I’m not doing well enough. Yes, I’m doing dailies and monthlies, going to dungeons, exploring maps, have a cool guild etc, but not having playtime for say creating a ‘zerker warrior just for a 2 nanosecond run through CoF p1 and defiling said dungeon days at end just to be able even think about crafting a legendary for example, seems like I’m always lagging behind.
I agree the best rewards should be for those who invest the most time in the game, however there are no satisfactory awards / sense of achievement for recreational players.

Also, I’m really sad I missed the ‘Lost Shores’. From what I’ve read and what people have been saying, it seems like a more interesting living story than F&F. Sure, I’ve explored the Southsun Cove, but it was somewhat boring. There is not much context to it (reading about it on GW2 Wiki doesn’t count imo) and not to mention that the map was pretty empty. Seems like there isn’t much drive for the players to go there now.

[QQ] – ex RoS, current Piken Square
[DV] – megaboss community

(edited by hedix.1986)

Why remove another dungeon?

in Flame and Frost

Posted by: skullmount.1758

skullmount.1758

If you listen to the latest wartower podcast (?) (TowerTalk LoreSpecial: Closeup Flame&Frost and Fractals one), even the devs say this might not be the last we see of the MA, so why the hell can’t the dungeon stay in some form?? (its near the beginning, if you don’t want to listen to the whole thing)

Darkhaven server
Please give us a keyring…

(edited by skullmount.1758)