Guild Wars 2

Josh,,
Dont feel bad that management torpedoed your design on the jump puzzle by making it many many players instead of one. I tried it like 5 times and decided it was not for me. I get thru a puzzle thru determination, looking around for the best jump point, trying over and over again, not speed, so I am not the right one to complete it. That being said, the design was fun to try and cosmetically awesome. The youtube vids completing it show how a more persistent player could complete it, but afraid other issues, camera control, tune spatial blocking like id10t players who summoned their golems to block others, (why were they allowed to do that?), for lack of a better term, lag from my end to yours, prevented me from even wanting to try after seeing them.

BTW, if you guys are really looking at camera problems, please Please, PLEASE look into making a first person view. Being able to zoom in and actually see your feet and where you are without trying see thru the tree behind you would make the jump puzzles SOOOO much better.

Having done the jumping puzzle on every race multiple times, I actually found doing it on the larger races to be far more difficult than on the smaller ones (had the easiest time on my asura, actually). Additionally- and this may come as a shock to most of you- looking for/seeing my character messed up my jumps far more than not. The reason for this is because of the timed nature of the JP; if I’m too focused on where I am, then I’m not focusing on what’s next. The need to ‘see’ is really limited to needing to know what the pathing is (something that you pick up from trial and error/watching others), because your character’s position on the screen will never change- you make your jumps relative to your character’s position. After that, it’s just practice.

The only change that I feel this puzzle needs is tweaking the cameras for some of the extremely-sized races. Perhaps even implementing the “everyone else is a ‘ghost’ to the person doing the jumps”. All in all, don’t feel bad, Josh. Official forums are too often skewed to the unhappy populace in Tyria; you did great and will sadden a lot more people if you DON’T continue doing what you do.

Let me just say this from the bottom of my heart. You did an amazing job Josh! I personally loved the clock tower and was able to do it many times on my asura regardless of the huge bodies. I do feel bad for those who are no jumping puzzle inclined though. I think making it option (not necessary for the title) would have been a better idea, but still GREAT JOB

Focksbot.6798:

Rock climbing is a challenge. I don’t think I want to ever do it. But you don’t see me hating on it. Look at guild wars 2 the way you look at the world. There are tons of things to do in it, but you don’t have to do everything. Some people do, and those people are crazy kittenes.

Imagine in the real world there was a bar above your head and everything unique you did filled it a little more, and when it’s full, you’ll get a small reward. One day you find out you need to go rock climbing to fill it up completely.

Still feel it’s a completely free choice?

Psychology is odd. We all tend not to weight things up rationally. Gaming capitalises on how responsive we are to things like getting a full quota of ticks, getting a 100% score and lots of other things. It’s a wonderful motivating factor that could be tapped into to make us more productive in real life.

But it also makes it not a simple case of take-it-or-leave-it. I’m not talking specifically about the Halloween achievement here – I’m talking about how games like GW2 inspire a completionist urge in much of their player base. We feel a sense of ‘progress’ from ticking things off the list. Having sections of the game that practically exclude us because of time investment or too much, too soon is simply bad tactics. Rationally or not, players will feel it’s bait and switch – you made them feel they could complete everything over time and then you decided: actually, no.

Problem with this is that those folk that are bothered so much by the “progress bar” to a point where it drives them to do these things just to complete them ( even if they aren’t having fun ) are ones that should be looking back on…not the game, but themselves and their feelings. There is a similar feeling in those that will gamble or other things. The drive to complete things becomes an obsession and they will lose sight of why they even do these things ( or even started say, out of curiosity or something ).

Everyone has limits and must realize them as something they don’t want to cross. A progress bar is just that. A lesson I have learned from my WoW playing days. Though these games have that in them doesn’t mean we as human beings have to think of them as a “must do” to be happy.

I gave up in disgust (with myself) after 4 hours one night. The next morning I thought, “I’ll try for 20 minutes more, and then give up permanently”. I realized I was a LOT better at it than the night before. I kept getting further and further… 45 minutes later, I made it.

I’ve rarely felt so accomplished. Thank you for that challenge.

FYI for Josh Foreman, I really hope he sees this. Don’t listen to people complaining and please don’t stop making these hard. PLEASE. I completed this puzzle multiple times on every single race. I have a max height Norn and a min height Asura so anyone saying it’s impossible on any height is full of it. This puzzle was amazingly difficult and FUN because of that. I honestly can’t believe some of the complaints I’ve read here. I also didn’t have anyone complaining rudely about my Norn being too big. A few people made remark about it but I was civil with them and they were civil right back. Nothing but fun and courteous jokes passed around on Sanctum of Rall, and I spent a lot of time doing that puzzle because it was so fun. I literally received not 1 single rude or threatening remark. Please don’t change the way you design these Josh. I loved this event more than any other Halloween content. Keep up the good work, you diabolical genius.

NO Please don’t make them easier! I loved the Clock Tower, it was so fun!
Yes it did take me around 2 hours to complete, but i loved every minute of it!
It was hard, but rewarding at the end! I would love if the next holiday event has something similar!

Criminon”

You’re playing an MMO. If you don’t have a bit of time to invest, this probably isn’t the type of game for you. Yes, they stated that they didn’t want players to feel they had to log in constantly, but we are talking a couple hours of your time. I think you’re blowing this all out of proportion.

I have time to invest over a long period. I did not have a seven hour span in the last week, and that’s how long I’ve been hearing it’s taken people to complete the puzzle. I might have done it quicker, but I don’t know – of the attempts I made, my best was the first one, getting me up to that steel girder you have to jump from. I hesitated too long and after that I couldn’t get anywhere near as far, and that’s usually a bad sign for me (if I’m getting worse, not better!)

I also have mild RSI problems which makes repeating complicated gestures with too many fingers at once a real strain. I’m pretty sure I could not have attempted the puzzle for more than 10-20 minute stretches at a time without risking my health. I don’t have a similar problem in timed platform sections on other games, because they usually have an auto-follower camera, or at least the mouse on auto-look, meaning I don’t have to be pressing with my right hand whilst stretching my left over the keyboard. Generally, I only like to platform with a gamepad, but it seemed weird to program one in just for one section of this game.

edit
Also, GW2’s slightly unresponsive controls make me instinctly feel I have to press everything harder than in other games. It’s a reaction I can’t seem to shake. My character feels ‘heavy’. Very bad for platforming!

@ Focksbot

The point that you’re missing is that it’s not about people being unable to do the puzzle. It’s about their reaction to being unable to do the puzzle. Coming onto the forums and complaining that their whole Halloween is ruined because they can’t fill the achievement pane in the first year is childish. Making the poor guy who designed it feel bad for upsetting people because they can’t accept the fact that they were unable to do it is wrong.

There are plenty of other people posting here saying that they couldn’t do it and that either they’re looking forward to trying again next year, or that they weren’t that fussed so they just went to do something else.

The puzzle is not impossible. Many people completed it. If you couldn’t, it doesn’t matter. Just try again next year. There’s nothing wrong with being unable to do it, or being new to gaming and lacking experience with such puzzles. It takes practice and you’ll get there eventually.

But no-one is responsible for your moods other than yourself. People demanding it be removed because they felt too stressed, angry or impatient is wrong. You choose to be angry and impatient with the puzzle.

“I did not consider the MK boss map as a jumping puzzle. All you are doing is dropping down. And I made it so there are MANY paths down.”
“I was just seriously surprised that anyone would consider the verticality in that map a ‘jumping puzzle’.”

It absolutely was a jumping puzzle. It required precise jumping and penalized you with (thankfully harmless) death and a location reset if you failed. How is that not a jumping puzzle?

I suspect that as a jumping puzzle designer, you’re very good at jumping puzzles. Certainly, the Mad King dungeon was not a particularly difficult jumping puzzle, but it -was- difficult and it required platforming skills. I suspect that perhaps you (and maybe most of your team?) is so good that something like this seems too trivial to be a “jumping puzzle?” That doesn’t mean it isn’t.

Honestly, as a long-time veteran of side-scrolling, first-person, and over-the-shoulder 2D and 3D platforming games, I still had trouble getting to the chest at the bottom of the map without dying at least once, even after doing the puzzle half a dozen times. (Feeling like I had to rush due to the fact that the person who made the party leaving the dungeon would kill your chance for loot did not help.) I didn’t mind it, but I knew it was a jumping puzzle.

I loved the puzzle! It did take me about 6 hours over a few days to get it but once I made it to the top the feeling of accomplishment was great. After completing it I still did it another 10 times just for fun. The puzzle was great please add more like it.

Focksbot.6798:

(I’ve done many of the other jumping puzzles and I don’t believe they adequately prepare you for a timed one at all – they can all be done first time by carefully lining up the camera for each jump.)

Have you done Spekk’s lab? That one’s timed and is great practice for this. It’s a bit easier, but it prepares you for the “can’t stop moving” aspect of the clock tower.

arabeth.2361:

“I did not consider the MK boss map as a jumping puzzle. All you are doing is dropping down. And I made it so there are MANY paths down.”
“I was just seriously surprised that anyone would consider the verticality in that map a ‘jumping puzzle’.”

It absolutely was a jumping puzzle. It required precise jumping and penalized you with (thankfully harmless) death and a location reset if you failed. How is that not a jumping puzzle?

I suspect that as a jumping puzzle designer, you’re very good at jumping puzzles. Certainly, the Mad King dungeon was not a particularly difficult jumping puzzle, but it -was- difficult and it required platforming skills. I suspect that perhaps you (and maybe most of your team?) is so good that something like this seems too trivial to be a “jumping puzzle?” That doesn’t mean it isn’t.

Honestly, as a long-time veteran of side-scrolling, first-person, and over-the-shoulder 2D and 3D platforming games, I still had trouble getting to the chest at the bottom of the map without dying at least once, even after doing the puzzle half a dozen times. (Feeling like I had to rush due to the fact that the person who made the party leaving the dungeon would kill your chance for loot did not help.) I didn’t mind it, but I knew it was a jumping puzzle.

Having jumping be involved != jumping puzzle. The jumps were very easy to make and there was a very obvious path. There were also only a handful of required jumps. Just because you have to jump somewhere doesn’t inherently make it a jumping puzzle.

Don’t say you won’t make new difficult content. For all the people who compained that it was too hard there are probably twice as many who didn’t complain who are happy with the difficulty. I’m so sick of easy bs in games because you’re trying to cater to some fat american with 5 kids

I understand why people are very frustrated with the jumping challenges, but I wanted to express appreciation for this to Josh Foreman. The clocktower was a blast, and I enjoyed the small challenge of navigating the drops in Madness Ascent.

As a suggestion, what if both had an “easier” mode? For example, a Clock Tower internal path that is much easier to navigate (timed, but with no drops), but does not have the extra chests. And the Mad King would have a teleport mechanic, but that would take longer/take you farther away from the boss. That way, you don’t have to engage in the challenging content, but people like myself would still have the option for that extra shiny and personal gratification.

Kana.6793:

@ Focksbot

The point that you’re missing is that it’s not about people being unable to do the puzzle. It’s about their reaction to being unable to do the puzzle. Coming onto the forums and complaining that their whole Halloween is ruined because they can’t fill the achievement pane in the first year is childish. Making the poor guy who designed it feel bad for upsetting people because they can’t accept the fact that they were unable to do it is wrong.

I’m not missing that point; it’s just a bad point. ;-)

No one has ‘made’ the guy who designed it feel bad; he feels bad because, out of his own judgment (good judgment, I might add), he feels he unnecessarily gave people a hard time and can do better next time. I’ve said my piece about the nature of choice and I’m not going to repeat it again, except to say I don’t accept the defence of “Just don’t do it” and my reasoning is above.

Yes, some of the responses were unnecessarily rude. Others have been a fair and reasonable reaction. When you’re promised fun and given frustration, you feel cheated. It’s useful to ANet to convey those feelings, because sometimes (not always) one articulated negative response speaks for many more users who simply turn around and walk away. Only a foolish company would shrug and say, “Who needs ’em?” instead of thinking about how to keep people onside.

The puzzle is not impossible.

I would say it was impossible for me, given my time constraints and aforementioned RSI issues, this year at least. That’s not to say anything I can’t do should be stricken from the game, but it seems like there are many ways to make it something I could have done, or at least enjoyed attempting, without sacrificing the ultimate challenge. It could be a less physically painful experience, certainly. It could also be presented in a way that brings players up to speed much more effectively, resulting in less frustration.

But no-one is responsible for your moods other than yourself. People demanding it be removed because they felt too stressed, angry or impatient is wrong. You choose to be angry and impatient with the puzzle.

No one chooses to be angry and impatient. That’s self-help waffle. You have some limited control over your emotions, but it’s foolish not to look for the exterior source of them and try to confront it.

Josh, I want to chime in and say that the Clock Tower was one of the most rewarding MMO experiences in which I’ve participated in my 13 years of playing MMOs. I can’t wait for the next jumping puzzle or other “end-game” content you put out. The real difficult content for the 5% willing to go through with it are the goals that most players strive to one day complete, which is what keeps them playing the regular content on a day-to-day basis.

souldonkey.9534:

Focksbot.6798:

(I’ve done many of the other jumping puzzles and I don’t believe they adequately prepare you for a timed one at all – they can all be done first time by carefully lining up the camera for each jump.)

Have you done Spekk’s lab? That one’s timed and is great practice for this. It’s a bit easier, but it prepares you for the “can’t stop moving” aspect of the clock tower.

Thanks for the tip. I haven’t done this one yet but I’ll keep an eye out for it.

Ultimately, I worry that I will always struggle with the timed ones because of how awkward I feel the controls are, but I might surprise myself.

I thought it was great just the way it was. Not everyone is going to be able to accomplish everything, poop happens. I found it a challenge but not overly challenging I would LOVE to see jumping puzzles that are even more difficult to actually challenge me. Please keep it up and thanks!

I failed the last jump a good dozen times due to a glitch on the overflow server that made it impossible to time, logged out and back in to get to a different overflow and made it first try. I’m kind of miffed about spending an extra 90 minutes due to the glitch, but I can do the whole clocktower in my sleep now.

Focksbot.6798:

souldonkey.9534:

Focksbot.6798:

(I’ve done many of the other jumping puzzles and I don’t believe they adequately prepare you for a timed one at all – they can all be done first time by carefully lining up the camera for each jump.)

Have you done Spekk’s lab? That one’s timed and is great practice for this. It’s a bit easier, but it prepares you for the “can’t stop moving” aspect of the clock tower.

Thanks for the tip. I haven’t done this one yet but I’ll keep an eye out for it.

Ultimately, I worry that I will always struggle with the timed ones because of how awkward I feel the controls are, but I might surprise myself.

Yeah, given your condition they’ll probably always be difficult. Spekk’s lab might help, though so I’d give it a shot. It’s in Caledon Forest. The jumps themselves are relatively easy as the panels are flat, but the timed aspect of it makes it a pretty good challenge.

I gave up on the Clock Tower and I love it.

I am terrible at jumping puzzles. I had trouble getting the chest after killing the Mad King in Ascent to Madness. But I want to see more of this type of stuff in the game. Both are challenges that I hope to succeed at…someday. I enjoy reading the experts explain how to complete the tower…and also amateurs explaining how they used (or did not use) the expert guides to get to the top.

One of my favorite things in this game is that, so far, I have never felt compelled to do anything. Dislike repetition? I skip the boring hearts, doing a little bit to help the locals each time I pass by. Bored with undead? I leave Orr and go to Frostgorge. Tired of newbie areas while leveling? I buy a few mats from the TP and craft to reach the next milestone.

This event was excellent in this regard: there were so many places to find pumpkins (for carving), events (for huntin’), and some excellent souvenirs (especially the back-trinkets and the witch’ kitten.

So, sure, the Clock Tower was hard and inaccessible to a lot of people, but there’s so much content in the event that I never expected to complete more than half of it.

Yeah, I gave up. I did enjoy it though, I only gave up because while I was certain that I would eventually beat (I was getting further up there over time) I didn’t want to spend all of my time on the Tower itself; there were other things that I wanted to do while the event was still on.

For me the whole event got a solid “A”.

Gave up, doesn’t bother me.

I jumped into the broken clock face… but didn’t go in. I know I must have been off my a millimeter in some direction, but to me it looked like a perfect jump. If the final jump is going to be this anal, I’m not interested.

Focksbot.6798:

No one chooses to be angry and impatient. That’s self-help waffle. You have some limited control over your emotions, but it’s foolish not to look for the exterior source of them and try to confront it.

Uhh… what? How is being an adult and taking some responsibility for your emotions “self-help waffle”? People do have the capacity to adjust their emotional reactions to events, but it requires humility, which is where the most fervent jumping “haters” seem to be lacking most. If you could simply say to yourself:

“it would appear I am incredibly bad at jumping. If I can’t find any way to improve, then I should probably go do the other Halloween content instead to avoid needless frustration.”

You wouldn’t end up getting angry, or trying to place blame where it doesn’t belong. Of course, this requires admitting to oneself that you have a below-average capability in something, to the point where it would be unreasonable for devs to design around your disability. It’s a video game, not a public building: they can’t guarantee access to content for everyone without completely watering down the game.

If you value “accessibility” above all else, you end up with a game where content is: a series of stationary, black/white (wouldn’t want to offend the color-blind!) loot pinatas that don’t require any textual, auditory, or visual cues (can’t alienate the illiterate, deaf, or blind!) on a completely flat surface. Requiring dexterity or puzzle-solving intelligence is also out of the question. Since some players will be unable to click the screen/keyboard to target the pinatas due to a physical disability, you can also just shout “LOOT!” into your microphone and the loot will automatically be opened and deposited into your character’s backpack.

Note that I’m not directing my criticism at people who complained about the actual jumping puzzle, only those saying the jumping required in the MK dungeon was “too much” and unfair. I ran that dungeon 50+ times in dozens of different groups, and never once did I encounter someone who consistently couldn’t make the jumps. Anyone who may have initially had trouble learned how to drop down correctly after a single try.

As for the actual jumping puzzle, I think it was great, and really the only thing Josh has to apologize for is not making it clear that completion was completely optional for the halloween meta-achievement. There were some technical issues that arose due to having 10+ players completing it at once, but anyone truly dedicated to completion, patient, and humble could learn to manage them. It was only the people who insisted on blaming their failure on norns and charrs who never completed it, because they focused their energy on blaming others instead of managing the added difficulty.

I’d also like to add that this accidental dynamic did encourage empathy and altruism, at least in my case: I formed bonds with many of the players (even Norns/Charrs) that were failing around the same spots I was and we gave each other tips and encouragement until we had all finished.

sanadin.8317:

Gave up, doesn’t bother me.

I jumped into the broken clock face… but didn’t go in. I know I must have been off my a millimeter in some direction, but to me it looked like a perfect jump. If the final jump is going to be this anal, I’m not interested.

I did it a bunch of times and I did run into a syncing glitch in the puzzle a couple of times. It seemed my character was out of sync with the server by a few seconds. So that when I would jump it would look like the perfect time to my character but in actuality it was waaay too soon. Exiting the client and re-logging fixed it. Happened to me twice and to a friend once. We even tested it by having him and I both on the stairs and I jumped when it looked perfect to me and he told me the window hadn’t even begun to come around yet so I was way early.

Kana.6793:

@ Focksbot

The point that you’re missing is that it’s not about people being unable to do the puzzle. It’s about their reaction to being unable to do the puzzle. Coming onto the forums and complaining that their whole Halloween is ruined because they can’t fill the achievement pane in the first year is childish. Making the poor guy who designed it feel bad for upsetting people because they can’t accept the fact that they were unable to do it is wrong.

There are plenty of other people posting here saying that they couldn’t do it and that either they’re looking forward to trying again next year, or that they weren’t that fussed so they just went to do something else.

The puzzle is not impossible. Many people completed it. If you couldn’t, it doesn’t matter. Just try again next year. There’s nothing wrong with being unable to do it, or being new to gaming and lacking experience with such puzzles. It takes practice and you’ll get there eventually.

But no-one is responsible for your moods other than yourself. People demanding it be removed because they felt too stressed, angry or impatient is wrong. You choose to be angry and impatient with the puzzle.

Here here! It’s alarming to me to see people blame their moods on the designer or the content instead of taking some personal responsibility. Really, controlling your anger/frustration is as simple as choosing a more humble outlook in life. It’s not “self-help waffle” as one other poster put it (though that does sound delicious) it’s common-sense.

Criminon.8432:

We’re talking about the halloween event here. You didn’t have to do the jump puzzle to access any of the halloween events or mini games. So your statement is pretty invalid.

In regards to your complaint about map completion, no one is making you complete the map. There are several other things for you to do in the game. Most people complete the map to get legendaries. Most people that get legendaries are dedicated to the game.

Jump puzzles are learned. ANYONE can learn to do them, given enough time and training. That’s like saying there are some people that can’t work at burger king.

Actually, I have met a LOT of people that could not work at Burger King over the years. I’d love to live in the alternate reality you inhabit….where anyone can learn anything (i.e. physical limitations have no effect) just by wanting to hard enough, or practicing hard enough. But unfortunately, that is not the way reality works. Some folks cannot complete certain tasks, period. And Anet can either cater to you ’don’t change anything — make it harder!’ hardcores and alienate others or make accomodations for casuals and find a happy medium (that perhaps does not satisfy both). Which do you think is in their long-term best interest?

You fall back on the same old, tired, ‘no one is making you’ whine of a fanboy with no real answer. If there were NO rewards for doing it, no titles, sure no one would be making you and it would be another thing to ignore. If there were alternate methods of completion, no one would be making you….but they stick decent rewards and titles behind the One True Way of Platforming and then claim you have a choice. You can choose to breathe or not breathe too, one isn’t very fun, but then again most false choices (like we are presented ingame) are not real choices.

And btw, the elitism of your statement ‘dedicated to the game’ is amusing….we’re all dedicated to the tune of $60+ (version dependent) plus whatever we spent / are spending in the gem shop…no more no less. Since there is no subscription fee, your voice (while more strident and confrontational in posts here) is no more important than mine or any other player. Those that don’t fanboy to ANET and fawn over devs like Mr. Foreman have the same rights to post here as you do. You don’t get a gold star and special status for dedication…that is irrelevant to any discussion.

souldonkey.9534:

I did it a bunch of times and I did run into a syncing glitch in the puzzle a couple of times. It seemed my character was out of sync with the server by a few seconds. So that when I would jump it would look like the perfect time to my character but in actuality it was waaay too soon. Exiting the client and re-logging fixed it. Happened to me twice and to a friend once. We even tested it by having him and I both on the stairs and I jumped when it looked perfect to me and he told me the window hadn’t even begun to come around yet so I was way early.

This must be what I ran into, it just took me hours to realize that was the issue without someone else there to spot me. Relogging fixed it for sure. I hope future timed puzzles have fewer sync issues.

Maklin.9301:

Criminon.8432:

We’re talking about the halloween event here. You didn’t have to do the jump puzzle to access any of the halloween events or mini games. So your statement is pretty invalid.

In regards to your complaint about map completion, no one is making you complete the map. There are several other things for you to do in the game. Most people complete the map to get legendaries. Most people that get legendaries are dedicated to the game.

Jump puzzles are learned. ANYONE can learn to do them, given enough time and training. That’s like saying there are some people that can’t work at burger king.

Actually, I have met a LOT of people that could not work at Burger King over the years. I’d love to live in the alternate reality you inhabit….where anyone can learn anything (i.e. physical limitations have no effect) just by wanting to hard enough, or practicing hard enough. But unfortunately, that is not the way reality works. Some folks cannot complete certain tasks, period. And Anet can either cater to you ’don’t change anything — make it harder!’ hardcores and alienate others or make accomodations for casuals and find a happy medium (that perhaps does not satisfy both). Which do you think is in their long-term best interest?

You fall back on the same old, tired, ‘no one is making you’ whine of a fanboy with no real answer. If there were NO rewards for doing it, no titles, sure no one would be making you and it would be another thing to ignore. If there were alternate methods of completion, no one would be making you….but they stick decent rewards and titles behind the One True Way of Platforming and then claim you have a choice. You can choose to breathe or not breathe too, one isn’t very fun, but then again most false choices (like we are presented ingame) are not real choices.

And btw, the elitism of your statement ‘dedicated to the game’ is amusing….we’re all dedicated to the tune of $60+ (version dependent) plus whatever we spent / are spending in the gem shop…no more no less. Since there is no subscription fee, your voice (while more strident and confrontational in posts here) is no more important than mine or any other player. Those that don’t fanboy to ANET and fawn over devs like Mr. Foreman have the same rights to post here as you do. You don’t get a gold star and special status for dedication…that is irrelevant to any discussion.

By the same token as your post, though, Why should Anet cater to people that can’t do it by not having hard content. This was the only content in the Halloween event that was difficult. The dungeon was easy. The scavenger hunt quests were easy. The Labyrinth was easy. Hell, even the PvP was easy by PvP standards. Why should Anet remove, or not include in future events, one very difficult event just because some people can’t do it? I feel for the people that couldn’t do it and you have every right to the game as other people, but I don’t see you complaining that you can’t get the other “hard” achievements in this game so why should the fact that this was a temporary event be any different than those achievements?

Edit: Also, your Burger King analogy sucks. If you know people that can’t work at Burger King then those people likely couldn’t do a lot of other jobs as well. Should we just dumb everything down (turn of phrase, not calling them dumb) so that all jobs are on those people’s level? That’s pretty much what you’re suggesting with this clock tower. Give people that are good at jump puzzles no challenge just because a minority can’t do it. No thanks, I like my challenge thank you.

I personally coached at least a dozen people through it while I was farming it, some of which told me they’d been there for hours. I got a lot of whispers of thanks for helping people with tips on how to do more difficult jumps and with my encouragement. All it takes is a little patience and a little practice. For people with disabilities, there’s a good chance you can’t do most of the jump puzzles in the game so it should come as no surprise that this one wouldn’t be any different.

MacGuffin.2456:

souldonkey.9534:

I did it a bunch of times and I did run into a syncing glitch in the puzzle a couple of times. It seemed my character was out of sync with the server by a few seconds. So that when I would jump it would look like the perfect time to my character but in actuality it was waaay too soon. Exiting the client and re-logging fixed it. Happened to me twice and to a friend once. We even tested it by having him and I both on the stairs and I jumped when it looked perfect to me and he told me the window hadn’t even begun to come around yet so I was way early.

This must be what I ran into, it just took me hours to realize that was the issue without someone else there to spot me. Relogging fixed it for sure. I hope future timed puzzles have fewer sync issues.

Yeah my buddy failed it 4 times in a row at the jump into the window part and we had both completed the puzzle dozens of times by then so we had a feeling something was off. The next time I went up with him and we figured out what the issue was.

I really don’t like hearing that you’re not going to be including this stuff as ‘prominently’ in the near future. The problem here wasn’t the difficulty, it was the various technical things that made it frustrating for some people (norn/charr in the way, for example). Josh, you even said yourself that you expected only 5% to complete it. You KNEW there were going to be some people that were upset about it – that’s only natural given the difficulty of it. It’s a little frustrating and sad to see that you’ve caved to the group of people that can’t handle the difficulty, and frankly it’s not a good sign for future content in GW2. ANet is supposed to be a pioneer for tougher content in MMO’s. If everything is going to be dumbed down so the lowest common denominator can do it with ease, well – I won’t be a happy camper. I was really, really hoping GW2 wasn’t going to go in this direction, but your post makes me wary.

I did the puzzle about 25 times. It was SOOOOOO FUN! Really!
It took me 2 hours to do it for the first time but then it became quite easy.
Best jumping puzzle ever! I want moreee!

Please please please do not make future jump puzzles easier based on whiners who “gave up in disgust.” This is some of the best quality content I’ve seen in the game, and certainly the most challenging. If anything I feel like the rewards for these kinds of things should be enhanced, as jps are the most thrilling, difficult part of the game. Completing events as hard as the halloween tower feel way more heroic and impressive than facegrinding the trading post or exploiting mystic forge bugs, so why is one rewarded with legendaries and the other with an achievement nobody will ever see?

Honestly, the puzzle was entirely doable with every race, even with tons of charr and norn blocking your view (I did), was absolutely amazing visually, and was a challenge the likes of which is rare in modern video games, much less MMOs. Achieving this balance is no mean feat in game design, and you’ve walked the balance beautifully. Bravo, Josh.

I gave up on it but that’s only cause I’m terrible at jumping. Even more terrible when speed is involved. It was a great idea though and I had fun trying it the few times I did. This type of activity just isn’t for me but you should keep doing things like this for others who do like it. I enjoyed all the other events as well so it doesn’t bother me that I wasn’t able to complete one achievement. Keep up the good work! Looking forward to the next event!

The jumping puzzle is FINE. The only things that made it difficult were the charr and norn blocking my view (i’m a human and have had at least 2 charr and 2 norns during all my attempts).

Suggestion: Perhaps make future jumping puzzles in a way that other people’s avatar’s won’t be such a huge detriment to completing the puzzle. There are several ways i can think on the top of my head how to achieve this. I’m pretty sure you guys can come up with more

Josh Foreman.8250

When I made this map I was HOPING that people who aren’t into jumping would do exactly this. They’d see a fun Halloween looking environment, maybe get to the first chest and snag a goodie, then be on their merry way. I see now it was a mistake to make the hardest jumping challenge in the game part of an in-your-face update like a holiday event. I’m not going to stop making difficult stuff like this, they just won’t be so prominent in the future. I honestly hate making people upset and have a very high level of empathy. So it’s been hard hearing all the people that are so angry, frustrated and sad because of something I’ve made. But it’s just another lesson learned.

I completely understand the feeling when you design something and a few people hate it. That doesn’t mean you did a bad job though. I’d be willing to bet that there are at least as many people who liked the jumping puzzle as disliked it. I for one loved it. I got that sense of accomplishment and adrenaline rush from back in the Super Nintendo days. You also shouldn’t shunt your work off to the side. The clock tower was an extremely well designed puzzle. Something that well designed deserves to be directly in the spotlight.

Bottom line is the internet is a vicious place and people don’t really appreciate a true work of art when they see one. Just keep doing what you do best!

Josh, everything about the clocktower was right-on. It was a bit difficult at first, but overcoming those difficulties gave a sense of accomplishment. The fact that it was a spontaneous group event also added to the entertainment factor as it became a sort of community building event.

Tbh, it is one of the best parts of gw2 so far (for me at least), and that is saying something I think.

I sincerely hope to see more events like it in future in-game holidays.

I really want to say thank you for making the Clocktower Josh, It took me 3 hours of learning it but I did actually enjoy the challenge!

I did give up, only because I didn’t really have the time to learn it with midterms (not the game’s fault). I know a lot of people didn’t enjoy it because of the difficulty, but I for one would like to see some puzzles (not all) added along these lines in difficulty. The easy jump puzzles are fantastic and fairly relaxing compared to the fast pace of combat, but more challenging ones (ie clock tower) for people who want to hone their jump skills would be excellent in my opinion.

overall I still thought it was still a TON OF FUN

I love the tower even though I never made past the blocks. (Pathetic I know) I partied with guild mates and we were just having a ball much to the pain of those in our instance I’m sure. Eventually I quit because I wasn’t going to make it and there was a lot more stuff I wanted to do, like farm all that candy!

What I didn’t like was how some players treated others. Jumping is up to the player and either you’re good or your not. Some players were chased out of the instance because other players felt it was okay to take out their frustration on the Norn or Charr who want to have fun too.

Focksbot.6798:

Kana.6793:

@ Focksbot

cut

But no-one is responsible for your moods other than yourself. People demanding it be removed because they felt too stressed, angry or impatient is wrong. You choose to be angry and impatient with the puzzle.

No one chooses to be angry and impatient. That’s self-help waffle. You have some limited control over your emotions, but it’s foolish not to look for the exterior source of them and try to confront it.

It may be difficult to control your immediate negative reactions to something (such as anger or impatience), but it is not the designer’s responsibility or fault if you choose not to change that attitude into something more positive. If you get angry because you fell, you can just accept that you fell and move on. Instead, it seems that some people have made the decision to stay angry and take those emotions out on the designer and the other people of ANet. They have chosen to not take responsibility for their own emotions and actions and have decided to place the blame on other characters within the game. These are all decisions that players make in reaction to the puzzle, when instead they could say to themselves, “Okay. I’m really not in the right mind set for this right now. I’ll go do something else.”

Still feel it’s a completely free choice?

It is absolutely 100% completely free choice. I may be in the minority thinking here, but everything is a choice. At a school I visited, they teach first graders that they have a choice. They can choose to behave, and be rewarded, or they can choose to misbehave, and be punished. Regardless, it is their decision (even if sometimes, the choice seems obvious, or that there no choice). You have to accept the responsibility of that choice, good or bad. If you choose to partake in the puzzle, then you accept the drawback of it taking some time. If you choose to partake in the puzzle, then you accept that it’s going to be difficult. If you choose not to partake in the puzzle, then you accept that you will not receive those achievement points, however you can still receive the title. In the case medical disabilities, then you have to long ahead of time accept the fact that these types of activities are going to be difficult. You can either choose to accept that fact, and get on with your game, or you can choose to be frustrated by the designer for not making it accessible to every type of individual. That choice is yours’.

I tried about 6 or 7 times, realized that I would likely make it eventually but that it was not worth the frustration on my part. I did like it though. Very nice. Very challenging. Good job ANet.

“Aurelian Omenkind.2470:
Tried 4 or 5 times, then said “nope, I’m’a farm some more candy corns.” Been happy since.
When I made this map I was HOPING that people who aren’t into jumping would do exactly this. They’d see a fun Halloween looking environment, maybe get to the first chest and snag a goodie, then be on their merry way. I see now it was a mistake to make the hardest jumping challenge in the game part of an in-your-face update like a holiday event. I’m not going to stop making difficult stuff like this, they just won’t be so prominent in the future. I honestly hate making people upset and have a very high level of empathy. So it’s been hard hearing all the people that are so angry, frustrated and sad because of something I’ve made. But it’s just another lesson learned.”

I completed the puzzle but after IMO too many hours and after the first hour it just became a pain to do. I hated it after.
Seeing this from the designer certainly goes a long way to reassuring me for the future. Thank you.

After spending an unhealthy number of hours over the span of three days, I see no need to apologize for challenging content. I finally managed to clear the tower and the feeling of accomplishment is so much more rewarding when said accomplishment took time, effort and skill.

But, then again, I’m a believer that not everyone should have everything. There must remain tiers of things (i.e., gear, items, pets, accomplishments) that reward the select few/many that put the effort into obtaining them. I also believe that one-time and/or super-rare things have a place in MMOs (and games in general).

Be it effort and/or luck, some things should remain exclusive.

Fantastic job on the jumping puzzle. Loved every painful minute of it!

You have nothing to be sorry for. A lot of people were able to complete the puzzle. There was plenty of time for all to complete it. There is no need to cater to the bads. So I ask don’t change a thing.

Criminon.8432:

sonicsix.5713:

Whenever I am asked about the quality of this Halloween event, the FIRST thing that comes to mind is the horrid clock tower. It completely overshadows the other aspects of the event, which were actually fun.

So from now on, when I see an announcement for a new “fun” holiday event, my first thought will be “oh crap, I hope there isn’t another clock tower fiasco like that Halloween event”.

I’m sorry you feel that way. If you hate sports and you go to the mall, is the first thing on your mind the horrid sports store? When people ask you about the mall, instead of mentioning the delicious pretzels, do you instead think of the sports store?

If they build a new mall down the road do you say to your friends “God, I hope they don’t put in another sports store. I just can’t have fun in a mall with all the different stores if they have a sports store there.”

Stop thinking like that, please. You had many other fun things to do for halloween, and just because you didn’t like one of the events doesn’t mean everyone hated them. The more negative comments like this, the more likely it is that I get to see less of the things I enjoy.

I didn’t like reapers rumble. I hated it honestly. But I’m not complaining about it. I know other people enjoyed it, and although I thought it was crap, there were plenty of other things to keep me entertained. I had a blast with the survivor mini game, and the clocktower. So please, be grateful for what you got. It’s not every day that you come across an MMO willing to dedicate so much to just a holiday event, and I don’t want to see each one met with nothing but negativity. I really enjoyed the clocktower, but I wouldn’t even say it overshadowed the other events. I see them all as a whole, and as a whole it was an amazing month. I had a lot of fun, and I can’t wait to see what’s next.

I don’t think you can compare the clock tower to reapers rumble simply because all you needed to do to get the achievement count for reapers rumble was enter it and then leave, whereas the clock tower you have to complete it which obviously many players have been unable to do(either through technical glitches or physical limitations) and therefore are unable to complete the Halloween holiday achievements, something that should be fun to accomplish for everyone.

Even finishing the book quest was doable by lower levels because they could be carried by other players into the insane areas that anyone under level 60 had no way to survive, so why tie this one event to a holiday achievement that unless you have excellent hand eye control plus a good isp most would find next to impossible and not grant it like they did for reapers rumble?

I dont have any problem with the jumping puzzle being hard. Thats a GOOD thing. The problem is simply that its a very hard puzzle thats only in the game temporarily. Now if it was permanent I wouldnt mind at all.

One of my sons made it on his perhaps 12-15th try.
I tried perhaps 20 times, and wasn’t making appreciable progress after about try 6 so I gave up.

From someone who didn’t finish: PLEASE, DO NOT MAKE YOUR PUZZLES EASIER.

I didn’t make it, but I’m FINE with there being some things you can’t accomplish without significant commitment or high skill. I’m cool with that. It makes the achievement that much more meaningful for those that DO accomplish it.

The moment you start to ‘give away’ things, you go down the wrong road that other major MMO companies traveled.

Seriously, there was nothing wrong with your puzzle.

Personally, I’d have preferred it being an individual instance so it’s JUST me vs puzzle (therefore people playing in prime time weren’t handicapped compared to people who happened to play at odd times), but even that’s not a big deal.

I’m curious what the completion rate was? You must have stats on # of unique accounts that entered the instance, # of average deaths per toon, # of successes, etc.

If a puzzle can only be solved by <0.1% of players, that’s probably not worth your effort. But anything 5%+ is certainly valid, IMO. I’d say some Vista’s probably count as 90%ile puzzles themselves.

I completed the tower 5 times, once each on a Norn, Charr, Huma, Sylvari and Asura(smallest model too) and I did it all with only the mouse. It took hours and hours to get it down and while it was wildly frustrating at times, it never stopped being fun. I honestly didn’t think it would be possible on the Asura but I managed it in about an hour or so. Best bet there is to get ahead of everyone so you can see yourself or just lock your eyes on the center of the screen and imagine you can see yourself lol.

I’m glad it was a tough achievement. If everyone could do it, it wouldn’t be much of an achievement now would it?