Guild Wars 2

I want to know the Human’s thoughts about if you hate the Charr or not, would you want your race to go to war against the Charr in an event or do you like the peace that is currently going on?

No. I feel that…the cycle of hatred and conflict can only end if both races meet half way somewhere. They don’t have to be besties or anything, but some degree of understanding would be nice. I go about RPing with this in mind.

Death to furries!!!!

Disclaimer: The opinions expressed in this post do not reflect the opinions of the Poster and his affiliates

My human character with ascalonian heritage most definatly hates the charr. He also hates the fact that kryta is lording over what is left of ascalon. If he didn’t realize there’s a greater threat to all life on tyria he’d be a seperatist through and through.

Regarding the peace I think anyone can see it is an agreement of convenience. The charr realize there’s bigger fish to fry right now, else they’d be at human throats in no time doing what they do best; warmongering and destroying.

I was a Legenadry Defender of Ascalon in GW1 kitten it. I like them as a race, but hate them because what they did.

I was a strong separatist sympathizer until the point I completed Filds of Ruin. I’ve learned that the treaty will give the entire playfield back to the humans, which is great. In peace, they can start to rebuild a part of Ascalon.

If we could get back Drascir as te Ascalonian human capital, linked with an asura gate to Ebonhawke and get some areas around Drascir or in the Blazeridge mountains, i would be extremely happy

My character from GW1 may have been Ascalonian but as far as the kingdom itself goes… I hated it especially since it was ruled by a total kittener like Adelbern. I never really felt any pure hatred for the Charr I just saw them as another enemy. However, since meeting Pyre Fierceshot in EotN I really came to admire and respect the Charr and their culture. It was awesome to have an ally who was considered an enemy and to see a comradery building between a human and a Charr. I find it great that now, 250 years later, humans and Charr are beginning to see each others race for what they are and what they can be together.

Gandarel.5091:

I was a Legenadry Defender of Ascalon in GW1 kitten it. I like them as a race, but hate them because what they did.

I was a strong separatist sympathizer until the point I completed Filds of Ruin. I’ve learned that the treaty will give the entire playfield back to the humans, which is great. In peace, they can start to rebuild a part of Ascalon.

If we could get back Drascir as te Ascalonian human capital, linked with an asura gate to Ebonhawke and get some areas around Drascir or in the Blazeridge mountains, i would be extremely happy

On the grounds of what they did. The humans stole their homeland first and forced the Charr north. The Searing was poorly executed but the Charr just wanted their homeland back that the Humans had taken from them and created a city. The Charr are easily angered and enjoy battle forcing them out of their land was of course going to cause some back lash.

I think the Charr were right to take their lands back from the humans. I think that they handled it poorly by worshipping the titans for power but I think their reasoning was correct.

Also King Adelbern was a horrible king who went insane and condemned his people in order to kill the Charr invasion.

The charr had about as much ancestral right to the lands they reconquered as the jotun would as they try to murder and drive out other races out the shiverpeaks. Not at all a bad comparison either, what with both races being prone to violent infighting.

Ascalon was no more Charr land than it was human land – neither were the original inhabitants, Charr pushed out the original inhabitants of Ascalon and then the humans pushed them out.

And even if the Charr were native to Ascalon – how anyone can think that’s morally justified I don’t understand. If Native Americans rose up today and murdered everyone of non-Native American descent to take back their land, would you think it’s morally justified? It’s cliche – but two wrongs don’t make a right. The Charr butchered a lot of innocent civilian lives, and those humans were not responsible for the actions of their ancestors. They committed murder and genocide, nothing more, nothing less.

As a player, I find the Charr very interesting as a culture, and I like playing my Charr – though I also have lingering resentments over the events of GW1, I can separate from this bias when playing a Charr character.

I also try to remember that the Charr of ‘modern’ times are not the Charr of GW1 – just like the Ascalonians of GW1 were not the humans who pushed the Charr out centuries before. Seeking revenge and violence against the ancestors of those who committed the act is, in my opinion, wrong – the sins of the father should not carry over to the son. For humans of GW2 to seek violence against the Charr of today makes them no better than the Charr of GW1.

I would really like to see the peace treaty remain unbroken, and with some land being ceded to Ebonhawke, the seeds of a new Ascalon can be planted – one that can share peace with the Charr. They won’t have Rin back, but at least with the Fields of Ruin ceded to them, they can become a proper nation once more (albiet smaller than the original Ascalon).

Jelle.2807:

The charr had about as much ancestral right to the lands they reconquered as the jotun would as they try to murder and drive out other races out the shiverpeaks. Not at all a bad comparison either, what with both races being prone to violent infighting.

As Caledore inferred, this would also apply to humans wanting Ascalon back.

The charrs have pushed the forgottens out of Ascalon and then moved in. Then humans pushed the charrs north and built a blooming kingdom.

It is unknown how much time the charrs have spent in Ascalon, but humans did nearly 1500 years.

The forgottens, probably first rulers of the land, moved to the world in 1769 BE. They inhabited Ascalon for years, probably centuries, so the most time charrs could spend there is also 1500-1600 years, if they took it 4-5 minutes after the forgottens moved in..

Don’t tell me humans got no righs to be there.

Frankly, it’s 250 years after the worst parts of Human-Charr conflict. I’m not going to condemn their entire race based on the actions of long-dead idiots on both sides. Hello Adelbern, Grenth would like to talk to you …

From an RP pov, not really because my lineage was in the Shiverpeaks and near Kryta region. Addlebrain—-er I mean Adelbern did a stupid thing, much like the Vizier of Orr did because of the Charr. I’m glad the Queen is doing a smart thing by making peace.

Besides we held them off with Ebonhawke and gave them a ruffling of fur because of it. I say let them have the former Ascalon territories while we deal with the Dragons.
We humans must reclaim Orr at least!

Gandarel.5091:

The charrs have pushed the forgottens out of Ascalon and then moved in. Then humans pushed the charrs north and built a blooming kingdom.

It is unknown how much time the charrs have spent in Ascalon, but humans did nearly 1500 years.

The forgottens, probably first rulers of the land, moved to the world in 1769 BE. They inhabited Ascalon for years, probably centuries, so the most time charrs could spend there is also 1500-1600 years, if they took it 4-5 minutes after the forgottens moved in..

Don’t tell me humans got no righs to be there.

Charr 1500 years compared to human 1500 years. Sounds about even.

My main character is the descendant of my GW1 Ascalonian main and is extremely wary of the Charr. Distrustful even, but there are actually likeable fellows among the Charr, notably Tybalt. That helped a lot to come to accept the peace negotiations, but it does not mean she forgets her families history or what the Charr did to Ascalon. She does not feel like the Charr deserve to live there, but accepts things as they are, especially since the Separatists make it hard to sympathize with them. She prefers not to be around the Charr though and has never set foot into the Black Citadel. But i would not call it hate, that’s just a futile emotion imo. She is rather pessimistic when it comes to the question if the peace will last though.

Dustfinger.9510:

As Caledore inferred, this would also apply to humans wanting Ascalon back.

Yes, but from what I’ve seen of the seperatist cause is they mostly just want revenge against the charr for the pain and suffering they’ve caused to the people of ebonhawke. Not saying there can’t be some imperialist agenda hidden in there somewhere but based on what we see ingame it seems they mostly just want payback for the actions of the charr who are living and breathing now.

My response wasn’t concerning the seperatists so much as any human PC’s who might harbor resentment about the charr inhabiting “their” ancestral land.

Hate would be putting it mildly, what you want to make light of the situation hmm!

I am plotting a coup against the current human leaders who fraternizes with the charrs. My base of operations shall be the ascalonian ruins.

Human Supremacist.

Dustfinger.9510:

Gandarel.5091:

The charrs have pushed the forgottens out of Ascalon and then moved in. Then humans pushed the charrs north and built a blooming kingdom.

It is unknown how much time the charrs have spent in Ascalon, but humans did nearly 1500 years.

The forgottens, probably first rulers of the land, moved to the world in 1769 BE. They inhabited Ascalon for years, probably centuries, so the most time charrs could spend there is also 1500-1600 years, if they took it 4-5 minutes after the forgottens moved in..

Don’t tell me humans got no righs to be there.

Charr 1500 years compared to human 1500 years. Sounds about even.

Yes. I wrote this because GW2 newbies keep thinking that Ascalonian humans were just pilgrims venturing into charr lands.

In the beginning one could not say a word of mild criticism of the Charr without getting swarmed by their fans. I wonder how many of those played GW1…or how anyone can sympathize with the GW1 Charr. Thankfully this has somewhat changed. They were not meant to be sympathized with until Pyre showed up, and even he enjoyed the Ascalon genocide. But there still seems to be a trend towards assuming that humans were only visitors to Charr lands and the Charr only took back what was theirs. A misconception that people need to get out of their heads.

Of course I hate the Charr, anyone who played GW1 and has any interest in the lore will hate the Charr. I think it’s amazing Anet tried to warp public perception of the Charr by retconning and twisting their established lore into making us think the Charr are a good, intelligent, industrious race who owned Ascalon originally (the Forgotten did), and that Adelbern was somehow the devil. Horrible father maybe, but a determined and loving ruler who refused to let a bunch of monsters take the kingdom. Reading his end lines in “The Last Day Dawns” really helped me appreciate him.

I can say I don’t hate the charr and I picked up GW1 when it came out. I know what they were created for and I acknowledge how they evolved since then. as they evolved, I evolved because my interest in the lore has carried me 250 years into the present Tyria.

Yeah…they sure did evolve. Darwin would have thought he died and gone to heaven.

Odd, though, that humans have managed to actually de-volve at the same time, as nothing filled the vacuum of their gods’ departure.

It may be worth noting that my main is a Charr. I played all of GW1 and understand what they did. As soon as GW2 announced the different playable races I knew I was going to play a Charr Warrior. The Charr love to prove themselves strong, it’s why they love battle. I think that the Charr have been manipulated into doing terrible things the same way that the PC’s of GW1 were manipulated.

I’d like to think peace is the only way forward. Years of warfare did the humans no good given how few there are left though I admit there were other factors in that regard. If anything the cultures should start to share more of their ideologies in order to understand one another more. Besides, I think it’s safe to say that now that the dragons are back we have other things to worry about.

Yes I do hate the Charr. I had two LDOA (Legendary Defender of Ascalon) in GW1. I dont actually hate the Charr themselves, as much as I hate Anet for creating this cognitive dissonance from GW1 to GW2. The twisting of the lore, and making the Charr the clear favorites of the Guild Wars universe has really shown a lack of clarity and consistancy in story telling of their products. What’s worse is the mangement of the lore towards the dedicated, loyal customers from the traditional game (Prophecies), and completely disregarded the customers experiences with the Charr. It is absoluetly disgusting how the your character, or yourself in GW2 cannot even have a different opinion on this subject matter. When you talk to the seperatist, or people in the Ascalon Settlement – the opinion you give is the same. As such, it has created this completely misconception of the Charr having Ascalon as their “homeland” stolen.

Also why humans bearly talk about the Searing is beyond me. People often say it was 250 years ago, and humans should let it go. Even an NPC said something similar in Divinity’s Reach. Yet, it is okay for the Charr to take Ascalon after 1000 years, and it was “bad” of the humans to conquer it.

Dream Runner.8546:

Also why humans bearly talk about the Searing is beyond me. People often say it was 250 years ago, and humans should let it go. Even an NPC said something similar in Divinity’s Reach. Yet, it is okay for the Charr to take Ascalon after 1000 years, and it was “bad” of the humans to conquer it.

Not bad. It was on par with what the charr did to get it and that means the humans have no larger claim to it than the charr do. After 250 years, the U.S. doesn’t harbor resentment against England or they against us. So yes, it is 250 years in the past and should be let go but those NPC’s aren’t saying it was wrong of humanity to take it in the first place.

I wouldn’t say it was on par at all.

The humans took unsettled land away from an area the Charr considered within their realm, and not only occupied it, but made it their home. And once they established a kingdom inside the Charr southern realm, they never sought to eradicate the Charr.

In contrast, the Charr not only decided every Ascalonian should die because of it, but every human on the continent should die too. How is that on par?

The U.S. and England decided a long time ago that their economic and political interests were more or less the same…so they dropped the old grudge. But there are plenty of real-life examples to the contrary. Ireland/England, Israel/Palestine, and India/Pakistan to name a few off the top of my head.

How do we know it was unsettled? The ecology says the charr were driven back and forced to surrender the lands that would become ascalon. Bu tbefore that it also says they stopped clamoring over the same land and spread throughout the territory.

I played the first Guild Wars for a long time, and the Charr are my favorite non-human race. Most people seem to hate them for ruining Ascalon and such, but I always thought of them as a cool new enemy that I’d never seen anything like before. The Searing was a huge slap in the face for most people it seems, but seeing the “stereotypical medieval fantasy kingdom that you see friggin everywhere” suddenly get magic nuked by a bunch of snarling cat-demon-things was one of the early moments that got me hooked on Guild Wars and kept me away from the WoW bandwagon at the time.

So, no, I don’t hate the Charr. I love them for ultimately helping Guild Wars stand out when I first played it. Being able to play them in GW2 is icing on the cake (the steam powered, smoke belching cake).

Dustfinger.9510:

How do we know it was unsettled? The ecology says the charr were driven back and forced to surrender the lands that would become ascalon. Bu tbefore that it also says they stopped clamoring over the same land and spread throughout the territory.

They were nomadic savages with no sturctures built there, just considered that land as theirs, which they took from the Forgotten.

Awww poor charrs. This information wasn’t mentioned anywhere before GW2, this is a post-made correction to make the players feel that the charrs are the good guys wanting justice! So cute.

And the humans controlled that land for more time than the charrs did, and didn’t want to destroy their race, which is untrue for the charr, who destroyed Orr and almost Kryta too. Was that war really about “taking back” Ascalon?

1. Do we know they were nomadic? Or that they didn’t build structures? Nothing in the ecology says that.

2. being nomadic doesn’t mean land isn’t yours. it just means you choose to use it differently.

3. Nothing says the land was controlled by the humans longer than the charr. Your own post on this page equates them with the charr having the edge if you get nit picky by 100 years.

4. the war really was about taking their land back. And subduing their most threatening foe. before humans came, charr either killed or dominated their foes within their own borders.

Dustfinger.9510:

1. Do we know they were nomadic? Or that they didn’t build structures? Nothing in the ecology says that.

2. being nomadic doesn’t mean land isn’t yours. it just means you choose to use it differently.

3. Nothing says the land was controlled by the humans longer than the charr. Your own post on this page equates them with the charr having the edge if you get nit picky by 100 years.

4. the war really was about taking their land back. And subduing their most threatening foe. before humans came, charr either killed or dominated their foes within their own borders.

About 3:

The forgottens, probably first rulers of the land, moved to the world in 1769 BE. They inhabited Ascalon for years, probably centuries, so the most time charrs could spend there is also 1500-1600 years, if they took it 4-5 minutes after the forgottens moved in..

Don’t ignore that.

About 4: And the attack against Orr was?

If the charr are still a warmongering race then there will NEVER be peace.

Double post due to error message from this forum.

Those whom always look behind them will never see where they are going. I don’t judge races. I judge individuals. I’ll kitten-slap a flame legion char just as quickly as a separatist. I’ll pour one out for Tybalt every time I go drinking, kitten-slap every flaming effigy I met and make sure Adelbern always gets a shatter straight to his ghostly gonads!

Crossplay.2067:

Those whom always look behind them will never see where they are going. I don’t judge races. I judge individuals. I’ll kitten-slap a flame legion char just as quickly as a separatist. I’ll pour one out for Tybalt every time I go drinking, kitten-slap every flaming effigy I met and make sure Adelbern always gets a shatter straight to his ghostly gonads!

And those who don’t learn from history are doomed to repeat it. The Charr are a society of warmongerers, reveling in violence. Rata Sum, The Grove, Hoelbrak, Divinity’s Reach. All are beautiful representations of culture and the races that built them. What do I see when I go to the Black Citadel? A mishmash of industrial parts slapped together with little care for appearance, an eternal smelter designed to fuel the war machine, and statues everywhere glorifying soldiers and warriors. That entire culture is toxic, and you can bet your kittenoon as the elder dragons are taken care of, the other races are on the chopping block. So when another searing happens (with bombs instead of magic crystals this time) no one should act surprised or shocked.

Kashrlyyk.5364:

Don’t ignore that.

Didn’t ignore anything. A full century is a long time to wage a war. And we don’t know that the forgotten ever where in Ascalon. What we do know is:

Other than internal conflicts, the only real threat to the Charr at this time was the Forgotten, who dwelled within the Crystal Desert far to the south. But, through judicious use of the mountains dividing their lands from those of the Forgotten, the Charr continued to maintain undisputed control over the northern lands. And, as the Forgotten pulled back, called to duty by some other power, they ceased to threaten the Charr.

Nothing about needing to beat the forgotten for ascalon. Only maintaining undisputed controle while the forgotten threatened them from the Crystal Desert.

About 4: And the attack against Orr was?

If the charr are still a warmongering race then there will NEVER be peace.

the war really was about taking their land back. And subduing their most threatening foe As the ecology said, they either kill or subdue their enemies. Humans had proven to be their biggest enemies in history. And they are still a warmongering race. Their longterm goal is similar to Asuran goal. Rule the other races.

Dustfinger.9510:

….the war really was about taking their land back. And subduing their most threatening foe…

lolwut? The Charr attacked the three major human civilizations, one went into the ocean, another got nuked into the ground, and the last one was only saved because of the White Mantle. The Charr wanted to get rid of the humans all together.

Dream Runner.8546:

lolwut? The Charr attacked the three major human civilizations, one went into the ocean, another got nuked into the ground, and the last one was only saved because of the White Mantle. The Charr wanted to get rid of the humans all together.

yeah. that too. they either kill or dominate their threats. Humans were the biggest threat in their history. It would make sense.

edit: Just realized what you are implying but killing is subdueing.

Dustfinger.9510:

Dream Runner.8546:

lolwut? The Charr attacked the three major human civilizations, one went into the ocean, another got nuked into the ground, and the last one was only saved because of the White Mantle. The Charr wanted to get rid of the humans all together.

yeah. that too. they either kill or dominate their threats. Humans were the biggest threat in their history. It would make sense.

edit: Just realized what you are implying but killing is subdueing.

Charrs don’t vene consider humans a threat. They think they are weaklings and just having fun killing the ‘easy prey’.

Stop with this ecology of the charr bullkitten. That is a fully post-made thing and is only the oponion of the charrs, not always the reality.

About the forgotten:
They originally resided all over Tyria. At an unknown time before 100 BE, the Forgotten were at war with the Charr on the border of what would become Ascalon
They lost the war and had to give up Ascalon.

Gandarel.5091:

Charrs don’t vene consider humans a threat. They think they are weaklings and just having fun killing the ‘easy prey’.

Stop with this ecology of the charr bullkitten. That is a fully post-made thing and is only the oponion of the charrs, not always the reality.

About the forgotten:
They originally resided all over Tyria. At an unknown time before 100 BE, the Forgotten were at war with the Charr on the border of what would become Ascalon
They lost the war and had to give up Ascalon.

“Stop quoting A-Net because it’s destroying my arguement” is what you just said. Like it or not, GW2 lore is still lore. A-Net specifically sais: “and the Charr soon faced the true challenge to their dominance–the threat of humanity.” But even if it is written from the charr perspective the humans were the first ones to beat the charr back like that. That is a proven threat no matter who looks at it.

Konig already showed you how you can’t take that line about the forgotten at face value. They were all over the world. that doesn’t have to mean they were on every inch as Konig already explained to you in another thread. “On the borders of what would become Ascalon”. ……….. Isn’t Ascalon. it’s the borders of Ascalon. And you still failed to address that if they were in Ascalon, your own time line gives them up to a full century to wage a war and still be in Ascalon as long as humanity. No matter how you look at it, you don’t have a leg to stand on here.

edit: if the ecology is written from the perspective of the charr, then they DO consider humanity a threat. If it is written from an outside perspective then it can’t be dismissed as just “charr opinion”.

How long the Charr had been living in Ascalon before humanity came, if it was longer or shorter than humanity does not matter one bit, as Ascalon was not theirs any more. The humans of Ascalon at the times of Prophecies had been living there for 1000 years, if that is not enough to give them every right to live there then 250 years are by far not enough to make Ascalon Charr land again. Reality is different…i live in Europe and if its nations were still laying claims to old borders from a 1000 years ago then some nations would cease to exist.

Might makes right, and that is why the Charr hold Ascalon today, there is no other justification. They only claim that Ascalon is all they wanted, and i have the slight suspicion that it is because they want to erase certain truths from history – that they needed help from an evil god to overcome the wall, that they had tried for hundreds of years, that they committed genocide and still could neither take Ascalon City nor Ebonhawke.

Dustfinger.9510:

Gandarel.5091:

Charrs don’t vene consider humans a threat. They think they are weaklings and just having fun killing the ‘easy prey’.

Stop with this ecology of the charr bullkitten. That is a fully post-made thing and is only the oponion of the charrs, not always the reality.

About the forgotten:
They originally resided all over Tyria. At an unknown time before 100 BE, the Forgotten were at war with the Charr on the border of what would become Ascalon
They lost the war and had to give up Ascalon.

“Stop quoting A-Net because it’s destroying my arguement” is what you just said. Like it or not, GW2 lore is still lore. A-Net specifically sais: “and the Charr soon faced the true challenge to their dominance–the threat of humanity.” But even if it is written from the charr perspective the humans were the first ones to beat the charr back like that. That is a proven threat no matter who looks at it.

Konig already showed you how you can’t take that line about the forgotten at face value. They were all over the world. that doesn’t have to mean they were on every inch as Konig already explained to you in another thread. “On the borders of what would become Ascalon”. ……….. Isn’t Ascalon. it’s the borders of Ascalon. And you still failed to address that if they were in Ascalon, your own time line gives them up to a full century to wage a war and still be in Ascalon as long as humanity. No matter how you look at it, you don’t have a leg to stand on here.

edit: if the ecology is written from the perspective of the charr, then they DO consider humanity a threat. If it is written from an outside perspective then it can’t be dismissed as just “charr opinion”.

“On the borders of what would become Ascalon”
This can be taken in many meanings, you picked one, I pick two. They were fighting all over Ascalon, or mostly in the middle of it, and that land became Ascalon.

Second: you do realize that a land has more than 1 borders. lolz. It could be the most northern border of Ascalon, so the Forgotten atually controlled all of the territory.

Gandarel.5091:

This can be taken in many meanings, you picked one, I pick two. They were fighting all over Ascalon, or mostly in the middle of it, and that land became Ascalon.

Second: you do realize that a land has more than 1 borders. lolz. It could be the most northern border of Ascalon, so the Forgotten atually controlled all of the territory.

So you are now saying that it may not even mean what you said it did mean. LOL. I agree with this. Like I said, no matter how you slice it, the charr were on ascalon as long or longer than humanity was. So, neither has more right than the other because they are even. Nice try though.

Dustfinger.9510:

Gandarel.5091:

This can be taken in many meanings, you picked one, I pick two. They were fighting all over Ascalon, or mostly in the middle of it, and that land became Ascalon.

Second: you do realize that a land has more than 1 borders. lolz. It could be the most northern border of Ascalon, so the Forgotten atually controlled all of the territory.

So you are now saying that it may not even mean what you said it did mean. LOL. I agree with this. Like I said, no matter how you slice it, the charr were on ascalon as long or longer than humanity was. So, neither has more right than the other because they are even. Nice try though.

Got a point there. Charrs got no more rights than humans. Still the game is forcing us to support charrs, even as humans, destroy remnants of Ascalon, even kill the ghosts, bomb their statues and so on.

And if I disagree I am the badguy and considered a separatist. This is a twist after Gw1 that many can’t swallow and was a trerrible idea for the moral.

Even in fractals we kill the Ascalonians, as Flame Legion! We can’t even be against the Flame legion if the other choice would be the Ascalonian side.

yeah, but in the context of GW2 lore it can make a lot of makes sense. it really only “definatlly doesn’t” if we as players are stuck in GW1. I understand it. I just think it is a pointless, losing battle to fight current lore.

Dustfinger.9510:

How do we know it was unsettled? The ecology says the charr were driven back and forced to surrender the lands that would become ascalon. Bu tbefore that it also says they stopped clamoring over the same land and spread throughout the territory.

Eh, it doesn’t specifically state anywhere that it was unsettled. I was making an educated observation. There’s no mention of Charr having settlements there, nor any in-game evidence. It just makes sense that they were nomadic, both because of their culture and the fact they seem to be modeled, at least partially, after Mongols.

At any rate, you’re very right about one thing Dustfinger: barring some unlikely rewrite, the new lore will eventually come to be considered as the legitimate truth. And the old GW1 point of view will be forgotten. That’s just how this stuff works. It’s too bad really, it had a lot of potential. It’s interesting to see how this all plays out in the forums though, I wonder if ANet staff ever take any of it to heart.

Eh. The problem with the educated observation is that it was stated as fact. I’m a little more cautious because possiblilities will be brought up based on what we see as the facts of lore. if those facts are wrong, we get similar problems to what a-net created when changing the image of charr. people will think it’s a retcon and when they are so emotionally tied to what they thought were the facts, they take it personally when they find they were wrong. (Though, they actually were right at the time in the case of the charr image).

remind me where I mentioned the fantasy tropes. I may have but I don’t recall it. or it was another poster near one of my own posts.

I agree. It definatlly is interesting. And I do agree with a lot of your sentiments, that they could have easily kept it consistant with GW1 theme and still had a great game. The many human races and cultures did add a lot of depth to the GW universe. I think any creator of story/art/racial background can’t help but take things like this to heart, at least a little. It’d be like their baby or pet. No one wants to hear how the essence of themselves that they put into their work is rejected but that’s also the risk of making your work public. and then selling that work :P

Ahhh crap. Yeah, it was late and i was jumping around a lot. The fantasy trope thing was from a different post. Sorry about that, I’ll edit it out. :/

Hmm, I don’t think the facts of Prophesies lent themselves to anything but having the Charr as being the bad guys. I also don’t think we didn’t know “their side” of the story not because it was hidden from us, but rather there wasn’t any. I think it’s a pretty safe bet to say that the Charr in particular were retconned. Although I will say ANet actually did a decent job of lining up all of their facts and figures and making sure there was very little, if any, that directly countered established lore conventions.

It’s not the factual minutia of lore that I have a problem with, it’s the overall character and style of the game that is an issue. Much like my “educational observation,” you can’t pinpoint it on just facts and figures. It’s a synopsis of facts, observations, judgements, perceptions, and even feelings. Each of those is important in its own right, because they all are used to determine overall quality and enjoyment.

Relying just on facts isn’t enough in my opinion. For example, analyzing a poem on rhyme or meter or technical aspects alone is a bad way to judge poetry. A similar idea works here.

Was GW1 inspiring to me? A little bit, but it was mostly very endearing. Probably because the story was good and a lot of characters/cultures were easy to identify with or at least like. It was good writing.

With GW2, it not only fails to connect with a lot of the spirit of GW1, it’s also just not very likable. I hear that constantly from other players. Sorry if that stings a writer, but I get the feeling they were targeting a young audience anyway. Like I’ve mentioned elsewhere, the Charr are just a very obvious example of this shift, as these forum posts show. The main reason for this, imo, is the dramatic shift in the narrative that occurs in GW2. And the main reason for that shift is the desire for as wide an audience as possible.

It all goes back to the profit margin. I mean, why do you think we might not get Cantha in the future? If NCSoft thinks it has even the slightest chance of upsetting a small demographic of Asian players…they will nix it. Why? Because it’s lost revenue. Someone should have told them a long time ago that trying to satisfy everyone really ends up satisfying no one. WoW was a freak of nature, companies would do well to not try and replicate its success, but rather work on a smaller, yet very loyal, fanbase.

Just like GW1.