Devs disappointed by human race bias
Humans got a really good lore, it has a ‘feeling’ to roll a human
And mostly because of GW1.
Fear The Crazy [Huns]
I prefer humans because of gw1 and the lore surrounding them. But i have one character of every race. Unfortunately ive grown to absolutely hate my asuran mesmer because of the god awful animations. So ive rerolled a new mesmer as a human (my 4th human).
That’s an old article and chart(Oct 16th), so maybe the values have evened out more. Since GW1 was only playable as a human, perhaps this reflects those players who migrated to this game and wanted to continue that in some way. It would be interesting to see a chart now and how, if at all, those race stats have changed. I would bet they have evened out some.
I am rather suprised that the dev is surprised with that chart. I mean, they had to expect a lot of GW1 players would want to roll human, if only out of nostalgia.
I troll because I care
That’s an old article and chart(Oct 16th), so maybe the values have evened out more. Since GW1 was only playable as a human, perhaps this reflects those players who migrated to this game and wanted to continue that in some way. It would be interesting to see a chart now and how, if at all, those race stats have changed. I would bet they have evened out some.
I am rather suprised that the dev is surprised with that chart. I mean, they had to expect a lot of GW1 players would want to roll human, if only out of nostalgia.
Nah, they tried to destroy everything from GW1. Locations, lore and everything that is PvP (I mean the game modes now). If after all this i would see Gw1 veterans coming to play this game i would be shocked too and would made me rethink if as a dev i should care about the playerbase that we managed to build up or just replace that.
Fear The Crazy [Huns]
If they only could have made the charrs and the norns somewhat smaller! First off, the norn, especially norn males, stand out way to much in a crowd and are way to big of a target.
And Norn as a race are pretty boring in general since it’s practically another human race, but oversized and viking-like. They could have made the norns a subrace to humans or something but I guess it’s way too late to change the lore :P And made them a little smaller aswell…
And as someone else said, the norn males looks like kitten. They really do.
The females on the other hand, are actually better looking and more human like then the female humans so they are cool to me.
The charrs are cool but also too big and feel a little clumsy. They are supposed to have been weapontrained since birth but there is no telling since they swing around with their sword like a 10-year-old. And not to mention the clipping on the armour. AND that they run on all fours which is fine but they do it in ultra-rapid! Looks stupid and feels tideous.
The vegetables are an ok race but doesn’t suit me that much. Can’t put my finger on why.
If there is another class I can choose beside the humans, it’s the azurans…otherwise I think I will continue to play mostly with humans.
(edited by Mejo.3198)
And Norn as a race is pretty boring in general since it’s practically another human race, but oversized and viking-like. They could have made the norns a subrace to humans or something but I guess it’s way too late to change the lore :P And made them a little smaller aswell…
They did make them smaller. In gw1 they were much taller. Closer to ogre height.
They did make them smaller. In gw1 they were much taller. Closer to ogre height.
Aha, did not know that! Never played Guild Wars 1 :-) Good to know!
But again, it’s still the main reason for me why I don’t want to play as norn or charr. They are just awkwardly big.
They did make them smaller. In gw1 they were much taller. Closer to ogre height.
Aha, did not know that! Never played Guild Wars 1 :-) Good to know!
But again, it’s still the main reason for me why I don’t want to play as norn or charr. They are just awkwardly big.
I agree. The Norn especially are just stupidly big. I dont care if it suites the lore. It ruins the entire game for me. It made their animations horrible. They look terrible and they even sound stupid.
Humans are the only viable option. Every other race apart from Sylvari have HUGE clipping issues. I mean the Charr cant even hold a shield for god sake. Any shield at all.
Well…Charr and Norn look slow because they have to. Ya can’t really have them run as fast as they anatomically should…otherwise Norn and Charr would outpace everyone and Asura would be waaaaay behind. It’s done for game-play reasons: they wanted to provide size variety, just not movement variety.
Fastest real-life race? Charr paws down, 4 legs faster than 2 anyday.
I troll because I care
Well…Charr and Norn look slow because they have to. Ya can’t really have them run as fast as they anatomically should…otherwise Norn and Charr would outpace everyone and Asura would be waaaaay behind. It’s done for game-play reasons: they wanted to provide size variety, just not movement variety.
Fastest real-life race? Charr paws down, 4 legs faster than 2 anyday.
Exactly, we all know that. But just make the stupid Norn smaller, oh and the Charr. Just make them smaller. I dont care about lore. Im done with ArenaNet having lore as their main line of defense for terrible gameplay mechanics.
I’d rather have a higher quality game than a mediocre quality piece of text and scripts of cutscenes.
I love feeling like I’m vicariously fighting those enemies through my character nerdy as that sounds. i would have picked a human even the story sucked.
Exactly, we all know that. But just make the stupid Norn smaller, oh and the Charr. Just make them smaller. I dont care about lore. Im done with ArenaNet having lore as their main line of defense for terrible gameplay mechanics.
I’d rather have a higher quality game than a mediocre quality piece of text and scripts of cutscenes.
About the sizes…
25 charracters
(edited by Rednik.3809)
About the sizes…
Yeah, what? I have seen that one. Don’t understand what you want to say exactly?
Smallest charr/norn is actually on par with humans. Size difference is not that big, it’s more a subjective thing.
25 charracters
Smallest charr/norn is actually on par with humans. Size difference is not that big, it’s more a subjective thing.
Yes, the smallest charrs are actually close to average height for human males, true. But they are hunching so they are still taller if they would stretch out. :P
It’s not only because of the height though, but the overall size aswell. The norn males look so ugly and weirdly proportioned. They have like one or two decent looking body types and the rest looks like Hulk on steroids. I doesn’t appeal to me. Same goes for the charrs.
I still think it would have been better with norns being a bigger subrace to humans, cause as a stand alone race they doesn’t fit into the game like the rest of the races. But they should have thought of that before Guild Wars 1 I guess.
I agree, I could pick a norn or charr at the smallest size though.
For whatever reason, humans are always the most picked race in fantasy games that offer different races. I dont get why though. I play games to not be me, so I prefer being non-human. Not that I dont love my human engineer, but Asura and Charr are cool, and unique to Guild Wars. No Asura or Charr in LoTR or TES. But thats just my view.
I guess people like to play as “themselves” or as a super-hero human. Nothing wrong with neither charr nor the asuran.
I agree with the devs that charrs and asura have the strongest personal storyline. Playing my blood legion charr sometimes felt like I was playing my renegade commander Shepard at times, which is awesome.
I also agree that the asura story is very enjoyable. I love the asura attitude and Zoija is awesome for that. Although I guess it can get on some peoples’ nerves. I’m the “why so serious” type so funny little guys are a good fit for me.
I thought the humans would have a great story because they were supposed to have that “underdog” theme, but the personal story completely ignored that part of human lore, and honestly the rest of the game doesn’t make you feel like it either. I was disappointed in my human’s story long before Trehearne mary-sue’d it.
That said, people play the characters they find cool and would like to identify with while playing the game, and in many cases that’s a human. Story and lore can influence people to play one race instead of another, but looks is probably the strongest reason. (Especially for a main character.)
maybe if the other races had as much customization as the humans do, more ppl would play them.
-Grunt
I think that you need to look at this from other side. Most of players want to play preety characters, no doubt about it. From all over the races humans are the best because of females, several good looking faces + bodytypes. Go to LA and just count human females. Norn females are also popular but not as human ones. Why? Because theres only 1 veeeeery good face pattern. Ok i get it that big cat-dog-cows and little goblins are great story races but racial story is sth about 10% of game. Guild Wars is all about end game good-look so ppl are more into humas than other races because:
Charr: clipping issues and problems with armors on higher lvls ( helmets for example)
Asura: small textures, u can’t show off
Norns: all Norns are made for guardians and warriors, also females are good looking rangers so we have only 3 classes out of 8.
Sylvari: Armor issues, males are rly weird because of plaudrons they are just too big to enjoy armor sometimes, second thing is female breast size ( but thats only IMO)
Devs are right, for example Charr story line is great. I enjoyed every single piece of story but whats next? Ur forgetting about personal racial story, you are joining order (another great story),your racial story is almost erased…
And at the end, as I said, Its all about good look.
P.S. Make Norns and Charrs smaller? Whats the point? Smaller Norns will be Humans and smaller Charrs wont be that scary, they will became cute. Its very bad idea. Also:
Charrs fighting system: Its awesome! You can feel like beast, those 1k blades and axe swings are just brutal, no grace just pure rage and power!
Norns animations: What the hell ur expecting? They are made of muscles and fat, you cant expect grace of balette dancer.
Those races are made to fight, to be brutal, to crush, kill and destroy, not to be a great fellowship at theater or some art show.
Red Sun Carnival [RSUN]
Whiteside Ridge EU
(edited by versaith.1049)
LINK:
http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/10/16/guild-wars-2-designer/
(And by “disappointed” I am referring to the statement of ““people avoiding charr & asura are missing the strongest story stuff””)
I think you might be reading a little too much into that.
Honestly, I never play any “cutsie” or bestial race in any MMO I pick up. Just ain’t my thing, so as such Asura and Charr are a no-go. In GW2, I’m more partial to Human or Sylvari. I would also say Norn, but the male Norns are very oddly proportioned. If they were just larger humans with celtic/viking hairstyles, that would have been fine. Hell, the Norn females actually do look more like larger human females, but the males have the exaggerated steroid-popping, sausage-fingered musculature going on for them, which turns me away, and also makes any class that’s not a heavily armored facebasher look rather odd.
I thought the same about humans in WoW, funny enough. Didn’t matter if you were a mighty warrior or clever mage, you always were JACKED.
Honestly, I never play any “cutsie” or bestial race in any MMO I pick up. Just ain’t my thing, so as such Asura and Charr are a no-go. In GW2, I’m more partial to Human or Sylvari. I would also say Norn, but the male Norns are very oddly proportioned. If they were just larger humans with celtic/viking hairstyles, that would have been fine. Hell, the Norn females actually do look more like larger human females, but the males have the exaggerated steroid-popping, sausage-fingered musculature going on for them, which turns me away, and also makes any class that’s not a heavily armored facebasher look rather odd.
I thought the same about humans in WoW, funny enough. Didn’t matter if you were a mighty warrior or clever mage, you always were JACKED.
Haha, I know! The human males in WoW had such weird proportions, with fingers/hands like bananas and forearms like gorillas. Same with the night elf males. They sure could have tone them down at least a little…
I rolled human, but it is mainly because I just do not like the char or norn animations, I think they just look goofy or at times bad, and for char I hate the armor modeling on a lot of the non racial sets.
I really can’t being an asura or a slyvari as well. They just are not my thing.
Now if there were dwarfs, or skritt, and possibly tengu I could go for them.
I dont agree with the idea of norn being hamfisted offs. There is no reason they can’t be big but dexterious and fluid in their movements. They just move very clumisly, and when you dig into the lore and a lot of the characters norn do not come off that way in battle. Drunken and boisterous yes, but not clumsy.
I made one character of each race, and I love them all equally. (OK, maybe I have a sliiiight favoritism for my Sylvari. XD)
I just don’t think people want to play big rats, werewolves and sticks in a fantasy MMO. I would think based on the visual appeal of a character, it’s obvious why.
Human pulled off the back water bad juju necro feel I was looking for best. I love my guys dreads.
Just not the same with the other races. I’ve played all the other races though.
Perhaps if they bothered fixing some of the graphical bugs/clipping with the other races there’d be a bigger interest in playing them.
The very obvious stretching on anything that isn’t Human and Asura aside, Charr have all kinds of tail/weapon/helmet/shoulder clipping going on, norn animations come off as goofy and ugly to a number of people, and Sylvari have some weird poofing going on in any kind of coat/skirt.
These are well documented problems that ANET has for the most part it seems decided to ignore. While i’m sure there players that can ignore some of these issues, it shouldn’t come as a surprise or disappointment that a good number of players don’t want to be stuck with a character that is covered in glitches and stretched textures.
Asura have probably my favourite T3 heavy set and one of my top 2 T3 light sets. However, it’s nigh on impossible to find good-looking armor sets for an Asura. The detailing gets lost in translation and any rare weapon skins are a waste of money because they’re not large enough to be visible. If you combat this by making your Asura larger, you end up looking lumpy and deformed.
Charr have two armor sets that are made for their race. The first is their T3 set, which are all decent, but nothing to write home about. The second is CoF, which is probably the tackiest armor set in the game. Well, maybe Winged is tackier. Jury’s out on that one.
Norn are gorgeous, but far too tall and disproportionate. Every move they make is lumbering.
Sylvari have absolutely stunning cultural armor, and TA looks equally stunning on them. The problem being that anything outside of plant-ish armor looks out-of-place. That said, it hasn’t stopped me from making my Sylvari Necro my second main. She’s absolutely gorgeous in her T3.-
What’s left is the Human race. Every single set of armor looks proportionate on them and can be mixed and matched to perfection. My only gripe thus far is that there does not exist a single decent pair of pants for a female light profession, nor does there exist many good pairs of pants for a female heavy profession. Part of the reason why my Guardian got a sex change back to a male. It also helps that all three of the T3 sets look very polished and all three also dye well. Definitely the most polished race, in my opinion.
tl;dr: Every race but the Human race has some sort of downfall in terms of armor choice. Since GW2 is very focused on aesthetics, why wouldn’t you roll a Human?
Boonprot 80 G
[Ark] Maguuma
I played human, and come on, the story was really awful boring and not entertaining, the screenplay should have been written by some kind of kid wich read too many immature mangas…
The design… The design of the most of armors and some races (Silvari) is just awful, disappointing.
They come from a poor mind, they’re lacking fantasy, they’re even less appreciable of any standard fantasy-world dresses. Even Ettins dressed with human bones and leather strips look more cool than whatever dress for your character.
On more than 10-about late game sets there are 1 and half which are vaguely interesting.
Guild Wars 1 was visually 100 times better than this, and got out in 2005.
It’s like when we say that the more our tecnhology can do, the less inspiration people put in while utilizing it. The result is always disappointing.
What does one expect from a fantasy game it’s someting… EPIC. What do we see here is RATHER LESS THAN STANDARD.
(edited by Luke.4562)
I love Norn, but because they’re so large their running animations are terrible and seem incredibly slow. Can’t deal with that, so it’s Sylvari and Human for me.
I chose human because of GW1, the cultures and lore behind them are very deep and beautifully done….So I wanted to create the descendants of my characters there first. I do have a Norn & Sylvari as well though.
I rolled a human because they are my favorite race. I may be in the minority but I LOVED that GW 1 was all humans and I could care less about the other races (I did try them all just to see the entry to their stories but they didn’t interest me). The designers might be disappointed in players not playing their other races but I personally am disappointed in them for how they’ve handled the human story in this game.
I normally avoid making human characters if I can because to me they’re kind of boring. Not helped by the fact that in many older RPGs humans were a kind of a jack of all trades ‘starter’ race – they had fairly mixed stats and skills and were ok at everything but didn’t really stand out. You’d pick a human first because you didn’t know how all the different stats worked together, then when you’d learned the game you’d re-roll something more specialised.
My main character is a human, but only because I wanted her to be descended from my GW1 characters. If it wasn’t for that she’d be a sylvari.
But I do also have one of each race, so I’d still have a human even if she wasn’t my main.
“Life’s a journey, not a destination.”
Those statistics looks a lot like a post shortly after launch. Honestly, the distribution is as as I’d expect it. Humans a clear winner, with everything else roughly equal.
I think the only surprise in that graph is that there’s so many Kodan. :p
since I played guild wars 1, I chose human because I was hoping to see what happening to the society that my original GW1 character was apart of.
USC Gamecock
Those statistics looks a lot like a post shortly after launch. Honestly, the distribution is as as I’d expect it. Humans a clear winner, with everything else roughly equal.
I think the only surprise in that graph is that there’s so many Kodan. :p
Norn you mean? And as far as i know they are the last ones.
Fear The Crazy [Huns]
I rolled toons of every race, but I had a real problem with the Charr just for storyline reasons. I mean, they’re evil, or rather the Legions are. I was frankly disturbed and a little sickened by the fascist hell of the Legions, and I was actually rather shocked the game makes the Separatists out to be the bad guys and encourages you to murder as many as possible. That was a hard lump to swallow.
LINK:
http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/10/16/guild-wars-2-designer/
(And by “disappointed” I am referring to the statement of ““people avoiding charr & asura are missing the strongest story stuff””)============
I chose a human due to the fact that I wanted to play a Norn or a Charr however the Norn males are hideous and their animations are god awful. Charr’s cant hold a shield without it clipping through or way off their arm and their tail goes through most armors by clipping etc etc. And they are both SLOW. So I went with the boring old human.
The most likely race to be released next is the Tengu which is just yet again another large animal race so I’ll just stick with my human after them as well. I’m waiting for a magical race. Something like the largos etc.
This is the first MMO I have ever rolled a human. I only did it due to the Norn males having worse hairstyles, movements, animations than any other MMO race I have ever seen.
============
TL;DR?
Were you forced into playing a human due to something?
OR
Did you choose a human simply because you wanted to roll a human?
Interesting topic, as like you, this is the first game I ever rolled human. I just started a month or so ago and tried out every race before human and for whatever reason did not like something about the other races…albeit animation, how the race acts, or just the feel of it where I am enjoying my human ranger and am sticking with that to level 80.
I definitely did not feel forced per se, but thought that was an interesting choice for me personally as it is so unlike what I normally do.
I rolled toons of every race, but I had a real problem with the Charr just for storyline reasons. I mean, they’re evil, or rather the Legions are. I was frankly disturbed and a little sickened by the fascist hell of the Legions,
Actually, this is one of the reasons why I like the Charr.
Too many times, in too many stories, I see characters needlessly be made to be politically correct even if it doesn’t fit the story or is completely out of time.
In order to create a “realistic”, living, breathing & unique race that can seem somewhat credible, you to go out of the safety box and use your imagination.
Everybody can come up with a fantasy race, but few can give said race a soul.
While I’m wholly opposed to it in real life, things like corruption, racism, dangerous ideologies, religious fanatics and other crazy stuff like that, it can really add color to a fantasy race.
Even humans are not perfect :P
(edited by SinerAthin.2374)
Personally, I made a human for several reasons, including the usual ’I’m human too’, ‘descendant of my GW1 character’, etc, but I also made one because the races trailer completely sold me on humans. A rich, cultured race, brought down to the brink of extinction, their gods fallign silent, but they are determined to survive. Instead we got nothing even near this and I don’t just mean the story. The whole game world is very happy-go-lucky but that’s beside the point.
Oh and promo material made me think that playing a noble in this game would actually mean playing a noble. Instead, as usual, I’m generic adventurer #476501. Who happens to have some servants and a wine cellar, but apparently no house, since we were celebrating in the middle of a square. Without guards to protect the guests. Seriously, what the hell? But I digress, again.
Norn I thought are a joke and EotN treated them as jsut that, comic relief. Then comes GW2 and we have oversized morons who can only repeat LEGEND! ad nauseum and the game expects us to take them seriously. Their way of life was handily proven to be utterly unviable when Jormag started steamrolling through the idiots who thought they could kill it.
The asura may be funyn at first, but if anyone I knew RL that behaved like that, I’d be hard pressed not to throw them out the window.
Sylvari I like. Made two alts too.
Charr I like, some of the armor just looks waaaay to weird on them. Shoes, shoulders, helmets. And too many spikes sometimes.
I have to wonder though what the dev(s) are thinking. Asura and charr stories are the strongest? How would someone who just started up the game know that? And normally you’d expect every story to be on par. It’s not the players’ fault if the writers couldn’t make the most of the great potential they were handed. (Sorry, but that’s how I feel.)
So yeah. Human I found the most appealing, but I made one of every race anyway.
Ed: I don’t think human story is bad per se, but incomplete, only in part related to what was teased and maybe too short. It’s very obvious that gameplay dictated the story, not the tale they wanted to tell.
(edited by TheLazyOne.8509)
I rolled toons of every race, but I had a real problem with the Charr just for storyline reasons. I mean, they’re evil, or rather the Legions are. I was frankly disturbed and a little sickened by the fascist hell of the Legions,
Actually, this is one of the reasons why I like the Charr.
Too many times, in too many stories, I see characters needlessly be made to be politically correct even if it doesn’t fit the story or is completely out of time.
In order to create a “realistic”, living, breathing & unique race that can seem somewhat credible, you to go out of the safety box and use your imagination.Everybody can come up with a fantasy race, but few can give said race a soul.
While I’m wholly opposed to it in real life, things like corruption, racism, dangerous ideologies, religious fanatics and other crazy stuff like that, it can really add color to a fantasy race.
Even humans are not perfect :P
See…what you said is exactly why I can’t get into the Charr. The GW2 version simply doesn’t fit with the old story. And if you think otherwise in the game, you’re being politically incorrect for doing so.
I would say the GW1 cultures had real soul…the races we have in this game don’t even come close. Just because they have an original look doesn’t mean the have an original spirit. They are so ridiculously cliche’d and hackneyed I don’t know how anyone takes them seriously…ANet just tried to cover up that stereotype with clever writing and glitzy-cute visuals.
I agree that those ideas you mentioned are worth inclusion in a good story, they provide much needed internal conflict. I just think it’s so poorly implemented here that it’s easily disregarded. I mean, I finished one race’s storyline, and couldn’t make myself finish any other race’s story…or even repeat the one race I did do.
That’s never happened to me in a an game genre like this…
I troll because I care
It’s very obvious that gameplay dictated the story, not the tale they wanted to tell.
^ This
You have no idea how true that is…
I troll because I care
It’s very obvious that gameplay dictated the story, not the tale they wanted to tell.
^ This
You have no idea how true that is…
I do know, since they devs themselves admitted to writing the story so as to guide players to new locations.
Then we got those nice Go to Sraights of Dev. Go to LA. Go to SoD. Go to LA. Go to Cursed Shore. quests.
I wanted to play a Norn, but I couldn’t stand the running animation.
Same speed as the other races but it looks slow and it’s annoying, so I went for a miniature Norn, aka a human.
Sylvaris are nice too.
I played GW1 a lot so maybe I have a predisposition towards humans. I made a couple sylvari but 7/9 of my characters are human. I hate Charr and am a proud Ascalonian Royalist.
Asuras teeth bother me(minor issue i know) and their attitudes irritate me enough to not play them.
Norn are slow. . . It wouldnt be bad if the norn has a perma 25% speed buff like thief, ranger, etc but they seem too slow for me. I tried making several norn if for nothing else than to have the cultural armor but they just dont stick.
Edit: Oh and I picked human because in the “found my sisters dead body” story choice you get to pick where your ancestors came from, total win win for a Canthan Guardian and an Ascalonian Mesmer.(even if it doesnt make any difference to the story its a nice little touch when you write backstories to your characters)
(edited by Akechi Hotaru.7129)
7 alts. 3 are Charr, 1 is Asura. I’m considering buying a second account for more character/bank slots. Inventory management is always a pain.
fans hate Joffrey. They hate her the way Star Wars
fans hate Jar Jar Binks.”-not a direct quote, but still true.
My main is a charr. But I can’t describe how terrible he looks in 90% of existing armors. It’s just a bad joke. And after that Developers are surprised that people don’t want to play none human races?
It is so hilarious! How are people suppose to be interested to play, for example Charr, when he/she has so much problem with armor? No seriously. You made a terrible design with most of the armors for Charr, and you are surprised why people don’t want to play them? Haha.
The same thing about other none human races. Only human race has normal looking armors.
And, as I sad before, my main is a Charr. But I’m tired of his bent back. I’m thinking about rolling another character, human.
In my opinion, ArenaNet shouldn’t make all these non-human races playable. They should make only one playable race – humanity, just like in GW1.
I think it’s their the biggest mistake. Because if gw2 had only 1 playable race – humanity, just like in gw1, it would have been more unique. And Arena wouldn’t have to spend so much time with other races, and would spend much more time with humanity, with their lore, with their appearance, and etc.
ArenaNet sad that other races has strong storyline telling? I would sad that NONE of them have. Why is that? Because all of them are pretty superficially.
And this irritating thing with sizes? When the mammoth Norn has to deal with the mice asura, it’s pretty irritating and inconvenient. Was that bad when in GW1 in pvp we have only humanity and player’s characters had pretty the same size?
Imo, making playable races not only human race, is a big mistake. Because of that GW2 has a lot of issues/problems.
I’m steel playing GW2, but I don’t get it. Was that bad, to have only one playable race – humanity?
Developers are disappointed. Ha! It’s us, who should be disappointed.
(edited by Kreslin.6832)
In general I hate really small or large races, so Asura is out and so is Norn and Charr.
I’m left with Sylvaris who look really strange in anything not TA or Cultural(just my opinion) or Humans. So I’ll go for humans.
I seem to be seeing WAY more of the cancer that is Asura all over the world. Everyone and their mother is running around playing one it seems. But this might just be bias on my part due to me hating them so much.