Guild Wars 2

Clearly it’s all the Charr’s fault because they’re a war like race. Yes, let’s completely ignore how warlike humans were before the Charr made their move like when the humans attacked the Charr to claim Ascalon or when the human nations were at a full blown war against each other for the hell of it or when the humans kicked the centaur off their lands too or how the nobles of Kryta are trying to kill off the other nobles of Kryta in their political mindgames or how the people of Ebonhawke wanted to continue the war. Or how their most popular gods are that of war, lies and death. Totally peaceful and honest folk, them humans. Clearly innocent right?

I didn’t mean to imply they were innocent. Almost all of the strife in Tyria is at least indirectly related to humans. There isn’t any species that I would call innocent really(except maybe those lil Quaggans :P). To be fair, the humans didn’t have a choice on settling in the lands held by the Charr that came to be know as Ascalon. The gods put them there on purpose to settle and helped the humans push the Charr out. I suppose you could blame the gods for setting the wheels in motion on this.

Oh no, Quaggans aren’t innocent. They want you to think that while they’re secretly eating Asura children.

Obsidian.1328:

Well, after the Titan defeat, they had no more enemies. The Charr were broken as a powerhouse. Orr was gone. Kryta had its own problems with the Mantle. The Guild Wars were over. I guess it just boils down to opinion but by my eyes Adelbern was vindicated by his insistence on staying. He won, albeit with help from the Chosen Ones(you).

The charr were not broken though. The foundations of their leadership was rocked and EoTN shows that there were rumblings of discontent, but it was only with your help Pyre managed to fan the embers of discontent into a full on revolution. Even with the Flame Legion civil war they defeated the humans.

In the meantime, the refugees from Ascalon have settled in kryta, keeping their culture and heratidge-if you look at the town i Gendarran Fields, the architecture is consistent (or at least, strongly resembles) pre-searing Ascalon from GW1 for example (a nice little touch.) Adlebern_ lost_. He smashed his sword when his last stand finally broke simply to deny the Charr a peaceful life after defeating them at Ascalon City. All that remains are echos of a lost country that will eventually be silenced, people trapped in a half-life, repeating actions that were ultimately futile.

Honestly, I like it like this topic. The writing for Guildwars has on occasion fallen into black-and-white to the point of self parody. Ascalon, specifically who has the ‘right’ to it, is a delicious grey-and-grey argument. Neither side are completely right… yet neither are completely wrong.

@Loki

I’m talking about how the whole thing was portrayed before EotN came out. I keep trying to drive home the whole “it was a different writer” thing but methinks it’s becoming a broken record. /sigh

As for your last point I would begrudgingly agree. The ambiguity of it all lends itself to a very nice grey area that is hard to find anywhere else. That is a rather refreshing take on an otherwise absolutist story.

Khyron.8735:

Clearly it’s all the Charr’s fault because they’re a war like race. Yes, let’s completely ignore how warlike humans were before the Charr made their move like when the humans attacked the Charr to claim Ascalon or when the human nations were at a full blown war against each other for the hell of it or when the humans kicked the centaur off their lands too or how the nobles of Kryta are trying to kill off the other nobles of Kryta in their political mindgames or how the people of Ebonhawke wanted to continue the war. Or how their most popular gods are that of war, lies and death. Totally peaceful and honest folk, them humans. Clearly innocent right?

I don’t think anyone is trying to claim that humanity as a species never committed atrocities or acts of injustice. You’re arguing against a point that (as far as I have seen) no one is actually making.

What we’re saying is that individual humans can be innocent victims of acts of aggression, even if other individual humans have been perpetrators of acts of aggression.

Theories of collective guilt don’t justify slaughtering and enslaving civilians.

The Searing was wrong, no matter what happened in the human/Charr history.

It would be equally wrong if the humans unleashed a Cauldron of Searing on the Black Citadel tomorrow and started taking the survivors as slaves, no matter what happened in human/Charr history.

Saying that humanity is perfect would indeed not fit the lore – but no one is saying that. We’re saying that what the distant ancestors of the humans did to the distant ancestors of the Charr does not put any level of violence the Charr want to engage in on the table for any time in the future. It has to stop.

That’s the same reason what the Charr did to Ascalon is unjustified, and the treaty is the right thing anyway.

Anakita Snakecharm.4360:

You’re arguing against a point that (as far as I have seen) no one is actually making.

This seems to be every other post. (not you specifically) I had to bow out. there’s only so many ways one can say the same thing in every post. it’s like everyone has an agenda and they just use whatever last post there is as a platform whether it addresses it or not.

@Dustfinger

Yeah I’m guilty of trying to “steer” the post a direction I wanted to see it expounded on for sure. I think most people just see something interesting in the post title, read it, and contribute whatever points they feel they have on it whether or not it stays true to the intended topic area. Doesn’t that pretty much happen with every forum though?

@Khyron

Hilarious :P

Obsidian.1328:

@Loki

I’m talking about how the whole thing was portrayed before EotN came out. I keep trying to drive home the whole “it was a different writer” thing but methinks it’s becoming a broken record. /sigh

I still stand by what I said; the char have savaged ascalon, there’s no hint at any point that it will get better. I was honestly surprised when they announced the Charr had moved into Ascalon for GW2 and it wasn’t a dusty wasteland.
Back to GW1, Rurik left with a large chunk of the population, the Charr show no sign of breaking, and by the end of Chapter I you’ve only achieved a pyrric victory of killing their gods; not before said Titans had a little romp around what’s left, presumably killing off anything that gets in it’s way.
Rurik’s dead, so the throne is up for grabs, so there’s possibly civil war when Adlebern snuffs it. He’s too old for an heir, some of the population have gone mad from what happened to them in the searing, more have been taken prisoner, and it’s simply gone to the dogs.

@Loki

Hmm, I see what your saying, I guess I saw it differently. Personal opinions maybe? For me, It never seemed to me Rurik left with a large chunk but rather a small minority. It also seemed to me the Charr attacks were slacking. At the end of the Rin mission, Rurik certainly didn’t think it Ascalon was salvageable, although Adelbern did. Rurik’s story to me was always tragic on multiple levels(Althea’s death, estrangement with his father, death in a lonely mountain pass, and forced to fight us as undead), but Adelbern’s defiance I always admired.

Taking into account the Charr trek accross the Crystal Desert and annihilation at Orr as well as their defeat in Kryta, it makes one wonder how many Charr that are actually left out there. No way to know that really, population numbers are speculation. But it certainly wouldn’t be a stretch to think they lost a rather large portion of their army like Ascalon did.

Yeah, Adelbern’s line would have died off with him but that’s not to say there wasn’t anyone around to take the throne. Duke Barradin, the rightful heir, was still alive at the end of Prophesies. In fact, Adelbern’s presence on the throne was cause for some potential civil war from Royalists. Without any mention of Adelbern having other relatives, his death would only seem to ease tensions.

Judging from yours and other’s posts, my initial reaction to the end of Prophesies is by no means universal. Personally, before I knew how GW2 was nominally going to play out in terms of story, I assumed Ascalon was going to be fine in the long run after the Titan defeat. For some reason that seemed like closure on the Charr story for me. I actually found myself wondering who would be king and how the rebuilt kingdom would look in the future.

It wasn’t until I played EotN that it dawned on me the Charr were going to be very much a part of the GW2 story. Again, if what I read from you guys is any indication of popular opinion, my view was not nearly as close to the mark as I thought. Thanks for your opinion though, I will try to refrain from dragging this out too much more.

Obsi

I feel quite bad about the human ghosts because they were nice, honorable people protecting their homeland. And everytime I’m forced to do the catacombs, I sigh and roll my eyes when Rytlock doesn’t even BOTHER to talk to the ghosts that actually seem quite reasonable. I really don’t like helping Rytlock kill the people who protected innocents from being burned alive by charr in the first game. Yes! Burned alive, cuz that’s what the charr did!

I always figured that Rytlock didn’t bother negotiating with the ghosts because he’s dealt with them all his life and knows they are quite insane and murderous. If their intent was to protect Ascalon, then why are they killing everything that comes near them including Ascalonian descendents?

Dustfinger.9510:

I read that. You missed my point. Your argueing against a point that was never made. Anything I can say about this post has already been said in my previous posts.

Somewhat your own fault. when you say someone sets a standard, you imply it’s the example for others to follow.

Loki.4871:

Speak for yourself; there was no indication that there was any improvement at any point, beyond the victory of killing the Titans,

After the Searing the Charr ran over Ascalon and marched on to Orr (and Kryta) while during Prophecies the post-searing Old Ascalons show that the Charr are once more pushed back behind the Wall. And a decade after the Searing Ascalon forces (repeatedly) destroy Charr strongholds in their own territory in the North.

Obsidian.1328:

… You look at everything. Everything. Yeah on the surface Adelbern seems like a supreme a@@hole. But given his options, he did what he thought was best for his people. And it turned out he made the right choice after all that. Just because a game sequel comes around and decides to bend the history to suit their purposes, doesn’t invalidate that. …

Ascalon was burned down and the lands still haven’t recovered 250 years later. Emigration to Kryta is an option and for the people of Ascalon it would have meant a better life. Even without the Foefire Ascalon was hardly habitable. How can Adelbern’s choice be the right one?

Obsidian.1328:

… At the end of the Rin mission, Rurik certainly didn’t think it Ascalon was salvageable, although Adelbern did.

His reason for not wanting to bring his people to Kryta is that he will not see any Ascalons living under Kryta’s rule. Or something similar.

frans.8092:

Somewhat your own fault. when you say someone sets a standard, you imply it’s the example for others to follow.

Unless i eliminate the possibility of that implication, which i did. I fail to see how it’s my fault that you intentionally cut out the part of the quoted post that omits that possibility and then chose to respond as if that was my message. I’m really baffled. i specifically said it was the same standard that the Charr had set against others. i specifically stated that I didn’t claim the humans started that ideal. And the analogy that i used referenced the charr doing it to others before that. But despite all of that eliminating the possibility of that implication ……….. it’s my fault.

it’s like you deliberatly took some sentances out of context, responded to the out of context message and didn’t realize that the origional post is still there to verify. Amazing.

Obsidian.1328:

It never seemed to me Rurik left with a large chunk but rather a small minority

Small enough minority to have a full sized town with a distinct cultural heritage. That would require a considerable chunk of Ascalon’s population, especially when the Searing’s killed so many already. The Ascalon Census quest made a point of saying that of the names listed, the scribe would have been surprised if half were still alive.

Obsidian.1328:

Taking into account the Charr trek accross the Crystal Desert and annihilation at Orr as well as their defeat in Kryta, it makes one wonder how many Charr that are actually left out there. No way to know that really, population numbers are speculation. But it certainly wouldn’t be a stretch to think they lost a rather large portion of their army like Ascalon did.

They went through the shiverpeaks, I thought. Regardless, they certainly suffered casualties with Orr, however that was shortly after the Searing. Post-searing, the actual game itself, picks up two years later. Orr’s already nothing but a memory, so the Charr have taken those losses; and they still smash Rin and attack south of the wall.
Flogging a skeleton, I make this point: there is no point in Guildwars 1, not even in EoTN, that it is suggested Ascalon is going to get better. All the evidence you see in game is Ascalon failing until you turn up to help (which is almost certainly RPG-Protagonist syndrome, I admit) and people dying and being taken captive. Any losses they take the charr can replenish, because their lands in the north are safe and unharmed. It’s become a war of attrition, and with Ascalon in the state it is (remember: not a single hint ingame that it will get better) it’s just a question of “When” not “If” the charr win. The vibe I got from Adlebern in GW1 was a bitter, miserable old git who refused to admit defeat because of his pride. Then GW2 and the Foefire roll along and turns out I was bang on the money; he enslaves people too loyal and/or dumb to leave him to fight in death.

So, back to the question of this topic, I feel sorry for everyone except Adlebern.

@Loki

Well it was both the Shiverpeaks and the Crystal Desert. And the refugee camp in North Kryta Province was not that large. At any rate, I’ve already conceded on not having the popular opinion on this gray area, but I’m certainly not alone in my view either. For me it was “when” not “if” the Ascalons would recover. That was the “vibe” I got from finishing the game.

If you got that vibe, good for you. Due to the engine limitations it’s not wise to just see the number of NPCs; take Divinity’s Reach for example. That’s supposed to be the capital of the humans, yet considering how many people should be there it’s quite small and quite barren.

The settlement is quite big, compared to nearby villages – and it might be one of several. I’d also imagine quite a few Ascalons had already gone to Kryta before Rurik left with his people.

Dustfinger.9510:

…

Relax.

Don’t use ambiguous constructs if you want others to unambiguously understand what you mean.

frans.8092:

Relax.

Don’t use ambiguous constructs if you want others to unambiguously understand what you mean.

I give the respect that I get. The entire post that you quoted was pretty un ambiguous. Stating and restating the message several diffrent ways. So, If you tries to misconstrue my message into something that was clearly not said, I’ll correct you. If you further tries to say that that the confusion was my fault when I took severl steps to ensure that there was little confusion, I’ll point out those steps I took.

I try to stay pretty analytical with some doses of humor but as I said, I give the respect that I get.

Dustfinger.9510:

…The entire post that you quoted was pretty un ambiguous. Stating and restating the message several diffrent ways. So, If you tries to misconstrue my message into something that was clearly not said, I’ll correct you. ..

When one sets a standard one does something that others adopt. One can not set a standard when others were already doing it.
Unless, you meant “principle” where you said “standard”. Then it would make more sense, to me.

Anyway, the Ascalons at the time of the Searing (1070AE) didn’t take anything from the Charr at 1070AE, even though humans did take Ascalon 1000 years earlier from the Charr (100BE). The Charr in 1070AE however, took many innocent Ascalon lives while these humans, in 1070AE, had not inflicted any harm to the Charr.

frans.8092:

When one sets a standard one does something that others adopt. One can not set a standard when others were already doing it.
Unless, you meant “principle” where you said “standard”. Then it would make more sense, to me.

You’re still trying real hard to ignore the rest of the post you quoted. You absolutly can set a standard for the way you act no matter how many other have done it before you.

Anyway, the Ascalons at the time of the Searing (1070AE) didn’t take anything from the Charr at 1070AE, even though humans did take Ascalon 1000 years earlier from the Charr (100BE). The Charr in 1070AE however, took many innocent Ascalon lives while these humans, in 1070AE, had not inflicted any harm to the Charr.

Okay.

And now they’ve added Urban Battleground fractal, that forces players into ugly flame legion boohoo to kill ascalonian humans.

I still feel bad for the ghosties.

Both sides committed wrongs and atrocities.

I don’t begrudge Adelburn for his actions. He was a proud and stubborn king, working to the best end for his people.

That was his goal, an admirable one. He had the best intentions. He’s a tragic villain.

Aside from hitting the ‘panic button’ at the end of inevitability there when the charr breached into Ascalon City, he doesn’t compare to someone like The Lich who also hit a ‘panic button’.

Even in death he was a pretty morally inspired guy.

If you’ve played the dungeon, he and his people were keeping back a greater threat to the land, even greater then the charr, on charr ruled land!

That everlasting hatred is somewhat tempered, albeit unreasonable still.

He wasn’t malicious in his dealings and prior to the searing, under his rule, the kingdom of Ascalon was without comparison.

Rurik was a more progressive guy, Adelburn a conservative.

Were Adelburn not so hung up over tradition, his nation with the help of Kryta, his old enemies, and the nation of Deldrimor, Ascalon may well have survived as a human kingdom.

That a remnant of Ascalonian human survives at all is thanks to the work of Rurik and the Ebon Vanguard, which in of itself thrived in the land in spite of the charr or the new dragon threats all these long years.

And while in the short term, this all worked out wonderfully for the charr in that they once again have Ascalon, eternal warfare isn’t all that it’s cracked up to be, even if you like warfare.

It takes it’s toll.

Humans and charr both did wrongs. Humans and charr in looking at this really have a whole lot in common; they’re both brutal, cunning, and often times crazy races.

Adelburns desperation at the end of his rule is akin to the flame legions Searing effort.

Humans and charrs should call it even, respect one and other, and live a peaceful co-existence that can be utilized in times of need.

They could pretty much take over the world if they worked to that end together.

Human ingenuity, penchant for progression, and great thinking + charr technological progression and steam punk advancement + Asura works in magical sciences = one awesome, kicking, unbound, and endlessly exciting future.

Or, we can all continue trying to kill each other. Not much sense in that given the former.

I opt for the awesome future myself, as an Ascalonian human descended of Ebon Hawk lineage. I’ve called it even with charrs.

If they’re friendly, I’m friendly. An ally is an ally. A proven friend is a friend indeed. Many a charr I’ve met has been an ally, and several more a proven friend.

Times have changed and they’re changing even now, for the better in terms of racial relationships.

But if they want to knife my throat, they better get to it before I get theirs. That’s the world we live in at present.

Mines smaller and much harder to connect with. Charrs are big bulky targets and I’m pretty quick.

TL:DR

Yeah. I feel bad for the ghosts of Ascalon. They’re my ancestors.

They’re also tragically unreasonable, unfeeling, unrelenting, and will kill me given half the chance. So, they have to ‘die’. Sorry. :(

The only ones I feel sorry for are the ones who were forced into the ghost thing unwillingly. Being forced into a half-existance of being “alive” to a limited degree while being stuck in that moment in time forever, cut off from anything else, would be terrible.

I feel no pitty at all for the ones who were onboard with the plan, and certainly not the ones who came up with it in the first place. They essentially dropped the fantasy equivelent of a nuclear bomb, killing their own civilization and in the process made the place uninhabitable to anyone else. Self-induced genocide and such spite that “if we can’t live there no one can” is deplorable, IMO.

No one was really ‘on board’ with what happened.

I don’t even think King Adelbern knew the extent of what it was he was going to do, but kitten it all, these charr aren’t going to win!

And what was the alternative? Surrender to the mercy of the charr? The Flame Legion wasn’t (and still isn’t) known for their mercy or reason.

Back then, charr weren’t especially reasonable as a whole, not withstanding a few progressives such as Pyre Fierceshot and his warband.

Now amplify that by the fact that the king is a diehard conservative who shunned his former human enemies.

You think he’s the kind of guy to consider surrender to a race that would likely in that time period do them no better then what he did in his final moments?

Slavery to your mortal enemies at best, fodder for their rituals at worst.

It was a lose/lose situation. You can argue the lesser evil outcomes would be ‘better’, but given the circumstances, he acted as a man pushed to a corner.

You would have done no better. Maybe worse. Who can say what would happen otherwise?

The charr had their Searing. The humans had Foefire.

Both races committed their share of wrongs. We can call it even and move on with our lives together as friends, or forever play the hate game.

Reasonable people change and ultimately control the course of the world.

Those blinded by hate are doomed to an endless circle of these kinds of tragedies until they die. If they can die at all.

Life is a lot more meaningful and fulfilling when you can experience it with clear eyes.

I in no way feel any remorse, pity or anything for the ghosts of Ascalon. Whoever they were in life is gone. Bria from the Iron Marches, Nente, Kasha, Ralena and Vassar are the only ones who show ANY indication of even being able to interact with the world with anything resembling free will or the ability to see the world as it is after so much time has passed. A few others like Kholer, Lormar and Barradin seem to have a limited will but can not see outside of the confines of Adelbern’s own sentiments at the time of the Foefire and so attack anything on sight in a futile attempt to defend Ascalon. Since the ghosts act like automatons caught in an endless loop for the most part, I don’t see what anyone would feel for them other than irritation at their unending existence as an obstacle to progress or perhaps admiration for their durability as a defensive tool if re-purposed. In the Charr story for an iron legion it is even written that the ghosts would not see turrets deployed against them because there was no analogue to them at the time of the Foefire.

As to the whole history/who is right/wrong debate, my view is this: The humans were led by their gods into territory that was already occupied by a sentient is currently technologically primitive people and told to take it as their own. They did and when the more primitive Charr came together and fought back they did so with such overwhelming force that I am reminded of the Mongols under the leadership of Genghis Khan. I don’t see either side as right, they both went to war which is in its very purpose wrong. Adelbern made a tactically sound move when he unleashed the Foefire, when your forces are surely going to die scorched earth is a viable means of maximizing the collateral damage and making the enemies victory cost as much as possible. That being said I will admit that ever since playing Prophecies I have liked the Charr and disliked Adelbern. I never thought that Ascalon would recover, especially after Adelbern’s over-reaction to Rurik leading people out of his besieged kingdom. I see the Humans and Charr as unwitting pawns set up by the gods to fight and hate each other for no reason we can clearly discern.

Interesting discussion. Even though I do not agree with Adelbern being portrayed as psychotic monster and the general view on the events leading to the Foefire, I admit the Ascalonian problem can’t be judged from black and white perpective.

I’d even be willing to accept the charr need for revenge against millenia old grudge no one really remembers (take note that an avarage charr lives about as long as an avarage human), if they didn’t go for full-scale genocide against humans. I mean- Ascalon was already on its knees after searing, with hardly any support from other human kingdoms, who were their enemies just few years back. Yet Charr didn’t stop there and were willing to cross Shiverpeaks and Crystal Desert just to fight more humans and to completely remove human presence in Tyria.

In light of this, the reason they give us to justify their actions seems ridiculous at the very least.

CopperPhoenix.8592:

As to the whole history/who is right/wrong debate, my view is this: The humans were led by their gods into territory that was already occupied by a sentient is currently technologically primitive people and told to take it as their own.

Your view isn’t based on lore or any discernible fact. The human gods didn’t tell the humans to take Ascalon from the charr. Humans did that on their own.

Same deal with the forgotten. Humans went on a land grab and they were largely successful.

Both humans and charr can hold a grudge, and both are equally persistent. Humans can and have kept pace with the charr in terms of warfare.

The charr genocide failed and the human resistance was and is fairly unbreakable even as of now.

But, the bloody war bit is ‘over’, the charr offensive over the many years have won them claim again over Ascalon (save for Ebonhawk and much of the surrounding area) and we’re all pretty much on even footing now.

Charr have won the war for their homeland at a very heavy price. Humans did this, charr did that. Let’s be friends now.

The semantics of these things goes all the way back to GW1 and irony would have it that certain humans helped the charr gain the independence and the free society they enjoy now.

Humans are made of tougher stuff, and charr are brilliant in addition to being very mighty beings (and cool, don’t forget cool) when they’re not enslaved to false deities.

It’s ironic in that charr are considered ‘god killers’, yet it’s humans who have historically killed the false gods of the charr and a couple of their own to boot.

Well, one full on god and several demi-gods, a former god… but yeah. We’re at an interesting point in Tyrian history.

I hope unlike in most lores that our major races become amiable and stick together and don’t end up hating each other again, making things like factions in WoW.

When I play with my main character, it hurts to fight against the Ghosts of Ascalon, I sometimes don’t even enjoy the purging :p
This is because I roleplay a bit too much when playing my main character. She’s a Ascalonian descendant (my GW1 character was one of the Ascalonian Refugees) and her family never forgot where they came from. Being in Ascalon and fighting with the Charr for their lands… feels weird for my character :p

Though, when playing with my Charr, I say “screw those Humans and those Ghost, this is our land!!!” shoots cannon

CETheLucid.3964:

Your view isn’t based on lore or any discernible fact. The human gods didn’t tell the humans to take Ascalon from the charr. Humans did that on their own.

Most of what you said is pretty right on the money except this. GW1 lore states in many places and in no uncertain terms that the human gods lead man to Ascalon. It also states that men could speak with the gods and the descriptions of the monk class describe them as not using holy magic, but actually speaking with and asking favors of the gods. So if men in GW1 say that “the gods told us too,” I’m inclined to believe.

On an unrelated note, I’d like to say a few things related to the topic at hand. First of all, Adelbern was not some madman made king and the reasons he refused to go to Kryta run much deeper than wanting a crown on his brow. Adelbern was made a king because of his heroic actions during the Guild Wars, specifically against Kryta. He had seen friends give their lives to protect the people of Ascalon from Krytan rule and now his own son is planning on abandoning their fight in their darkest hour with some of the king’s much needed men to defect to a nation that may still harbor ill will toward your subjects. It would have been jarring for a character with King Adelbern’s background to go along with Prince Rurik’s plan. What Rurik did would be like buggering off to France from Great Britain because the war with the Spanish was going poorly, and he took solders with him at that!

Second, I don’t think that unleashing the foefire fits Adelbern’s character after we see the growth and regret at the end of the Prophecies quest line, unless the unleashing was some sort of an accident or mistake. He may have been a cold man at times, but everything he did was to protect his people and his country.

Finally, what upsets me the most isn’t that the charr took Ascalon, but that the charr are supposed to be seen as the victims in everything that’s happened. There aree several places where in game dialogue tells the player that the searing was 200 years ago and to “get over it” but we’re supposed to feel bad for the charr who lost a fraction of their homelands over 1000 years ago? No, you can’t have it both ways, either humans are justified in wanting to take back Ascalon or the charr just wanted to take land they no longer have a claim to. Let’s not forget that the charr took the land from the forgotten, whom the dragons placed there to shepherd it and ensure it would develop.

That’s is the thing I love about this game and the human/charr conflict. There is no right or wrong and the fact such civil debates can occur over the topic. I’m glad I was able to read what everyone wrote here and learning a lot more about the Searing and the conflict.
(Minor spoilers below!)
On another note though, I read Ghosts of Ascalon and I can’t recall the mans name but he was a personal servant to the king and I remember he told Dougal that Adelbern was planning on using the Foefire. I think Adelbern even stabbed the man when he tried to reason with him and that was when he told the Fire war band lead by Frye that Adelbern was going to use the Foefire. Then when Frye tried to warn the charr his war band was tied up on The Viewing Hill and watched the Foefire. This is all off the top of my head though so I probably botched a lot of it. If anyone read the book, could you confirm on this?

Gurt.9368:

Most of what you said is pretty right on the money except this. GW1 lore states in many places and in no uncertain terms that the human gods lead man to Ascalon. It also states that men could speak with the gods and the descriptions of the monk class describe them as not using holy magic, but actually speaking with and asking favors of the gods. So if men in GW1 say that “the gods told us too,” I’m inclined to believe.

I’m sorry but unless Melandru or one of the other ones undoubtedly said to the humans “Guys, go take the land from the charr” somewhere in the lore I missed, any Joe Schmoe can say “for teh gods” or “god said so” to justify themselves in their own eyes or in the eyes of others.

That’s not an argument anymore then someone who says a god told them to go kill someone. You have to prove the authority under which you act.

If a god can get you to kill someone, if they’re any kind of ‘god’, then they can rescue you from the lesser authority of mortals.

You can imagine how often that happens. Did the human gods rescue Ascalon from the charr invasion if it was their will that humans should have Ascalon?

That more or less proves as the lore goes that humans pretty much ran off and conquered the known world of their own doing and were the dominant species for the longest time.

Times certainly have changed. It doesn’t have to be bad though.

The unique place we find ourselves in history at this time could have us all be united as friends with a purpose instead of everyone hating us for being the conqueror.

Time will tell. I hope for the first option myself and things seem to be going great in that regard.

But regardless, you better believe humans will persist even against impossible odds. Even if things go south.

Humans will always have a place in Tyria, or else they will carve themselves one… or curb stomp someone else’s spot…

Vicious cycle is vicious.

CETheLucid.3964:

Gurt.9368:

Most of what you said is pretty right on the money except this. GW1 lore states in many places and in no uncertain terms that the human gods lead man to Ascalon. It also states that men could speak with the gods and the descriptions of the monk class describe them as not using holy magic, but actually speaking with and asking favors of the gods. So if men in GW1 say that “the gods told us too,” I’m inclined to believe.

I’m sorry but unless Melandru or one of the other ones undoubtedly said to the humans “Guys, go take the land from the charr” somewhere in the lore I missed, any Joe Schmoe can say “for teh gods” or “god said so” to justify themselves in their own eyes or in the eyes of others.

That’s not an argument anymore then someone who says a god told them to go kill someone. You have to prove the authority under which you act.

If a god can get you to kill someone, if they’re any kind of ‘god’, then they can rescue you from the lesser authority of mortals.

You can imagine how often that happens. Did the human gods rescue Ascalon from the charr invasion if it was their will that humans should have Ascalon?

That more or less proves as the lore goes that humans pretty much ran off and conquered the known world of their own doing and were the dominant species for the longest time.

Times certainly have changed. It doesn’t have to be bad though.

The unique place we find ourselves in history at this time could have us all be united as friends with a purpose instead of everyone hating us for being the conqueror.

Time will tell. I hope for the first option myself and things seem to be going great in that regard.

But regardless, you better believe humans will persist even against impossible odds. Even if things go south.

Humans will always have a place in Tyria, or else they will carve themselves one… or curb stomp someone else’s spot…

Vicious cycle is vicious.

The lore mentions that the six led the human conquest in the same breath that it tells us that humans aren’t native to Tyria and were placed here by the gods from somewhere else, and that the charr began looking for gods of their own because they witnessed the strength, fury, and might of the human gods. Why some of these are readily taken as truths and others are dismissed as legends I’ll never know.

Just because the gods choose not to save Ascalon does not mean that they didn’t tell the humans to take it. In GW1 the gods are active and alive, and while them doing things is rare, they do stuff. In GW1 I would say that Ascalon was never in any real danger of being lost to the charr, Prophecies ends on a note that implies that Adelbern will eventually succeed in driving the charr out. Ascalon in GW1 doesn’t need divine intervention. Even if it did, the gods are not nice. Balthazar killed a man for beating him at a board game.

Oh I haven’t trolled here in awhile. ^^

I’m with you on this Gurt, I’ve tried several times to reiterate your/our point but the inertia that is GW2 is too great. It’s probably moot now anyway, seeing as ANet writer’s have been working on this since EotN. I’ve just given up trying to like GW2 story, mostly because of everything you’ve stated…and then some. GW2 Tyria just isn’t the same world as the original. And I don’t mean it just has a bunch of new races and places…the heart and soul of it is no where near the same as it was.

I said it once and I’ll say it again:

The modern lore writers, dating back to EotN, have purposefully chosen this new narrative for gameplay purposes. It’s a common MMO theme, everyone likes different races to role-play right? It’s actually kind of amazing Guild Wars was so popular with only humans as a playable race if you think about it. For the modern authors, GW1 was a perfect backstory with which to weave a new, elaborate storyline that can “reinvent” Tyria so to speak. It makes perfect sense from a mass-appeal standpoint…as well as from a creativity standpoint(lore issues aside, I actually think the Citadel, the Grove, Rata, etc, are wondrous places). It’s just unfortunate(but necessary given the current Tyrian political landscape if you think about it) that humans have had to take a nose dive off the proverbial pedestal to make this happen.

I just wish they named the game something different.

Edit: I use the word “just” waaaay to much :P

I have mixed opinions, my gut feeling after spending years in PreSearing killing Charr, and seeing what they did to Gwen etc. They where monsters anduncivilised in GW1 up until EoTN.
There more of there lore was unraveled, we saw cubs, Charr females and a genuine life they led.
I feel sorry for the ghosts but they are stuck in a paradox. As I recall in GW2 “Plains of Ashford”
There is a particular event when 2 ghosts spawn and repeat the words from the first mission of GW1.
“We found Bonfaaz Burntfur and the Charr army, sir, in a valley to the north.”
“But I’m afraid we were spotted. They come for the Wall as we speak!”

Dunno about you guys, but this sent shiver down my spine, such a thrill and pure adrenaline.

Summary, yes I feel sorry, and I feel sorry for the Charr too, but I will continue to hate the flame legion as it is them that started all of this.

I share your pain, Renn

Seras.5702:

The Flame Legion brought some corrupt gods to the Charr and were leading them astray. The other legions fought back & drove out the gods.

Wrong.

There were no four distinct legions at the time. The “legions” were not autonamous entities as they are today, as all Charr were led by a single office, that of the Khan-Ur.

The Charr were united at the time of the searing, there was no “aww you shouldn’t have done that flame legion”

The turning point against Charr worship of the Titans (who aren’t gods as much as they are pawns of so-called “gods”) is lived through by the player in the Eye of the North expansion for GW1 was the machination of a single warband lead by a single Charr (Pyre Fierceshot), and, in fact, Several humans were instrumental in this event, including Logan’s ancestor Gwen. Without human intervention and assistance in rescuing Pyre’s warband, there would BE no legions as you know them now.

Charr owe humans a lot more than they like to admit.

Obsidian.1328:

Oh I haven’t trolled here in awhile. ^^

I’m with you on this Gurt, I’ve tried several times to reiterate your/our point but the inertia that is GW2 is too great. It’s probably moot now anyway, seeing as ANet writer’s have been working on this since EotN. I’ve just given up trying to like GW2 story, mostly because of everything you’ve stated…and then some. GW2 Tyria just isn’t the same world as the original. And I don’t mean it just has a bunch of new races and places…the heart and soul of it is no where near the same as it was.

I said it once and I’ll say it again:

The modern lore writers, dating back to EotN, have purposefully chosen this new narrative for gameplay purposes. It’s a common MMO theme, everyone likes different races to role-play right? It’s actually kind of amazing Guild Wars was so popular with only humans as a playable race if you think about it. For the modern authors, GW1 was a perfect backstory with which to weave a new, elaborate storyline that can “reinvent” Tyria so to speak. It makes perfect sense from a mass-appeal standpoint…as well as from a creativity standpoint(lore issues aside, I actually think the Citadel, the Grove, Rata, etc, are wondrous places). It’s just unfortunate(but necessary given the current Tyrian political landscape if you think about it) that humans have had to take a nose dive off the proverbial pedestal to make this happen.

I just wish they named the game something different.

Edit: I use the word “just” waaaay to much :P

I disagree with the notion that the new material can’t be liked. One of the reasons I dislike the current charr-human lore so much is because it could have been so much better with a few minor tweaks.

Gwen would have been the perfect candidate to start peace talks with the charr, she helped liberate them and Pyre and her are comrades in arms, whether they like to admit it or not. Sure, Adlebern would have never gone for it, but had he died a war hero then Duke Baradin would have ascended to the throne and he could have easily been written to have had an open enough mind to start peace talks.

Make the peace talks take hundreds of years, move the black citadel to where Ebonhawk is, Ascalonians are holding out against renegade charr raids in Rin, Surmia, and/or Ascalon. Uneasy peace finally settled when Jenna promises charr more Ascalonian territory so the charr own continuous land from their homelands to Black Citadel. Done.

May not be that good but it’s better than trivializing everything the GW1 playerbase cared about anyway.

Anyhow, the current lore could be salvaged, but we’d need to learn something about the foefire that doesn’t condemn Adelbern, it being an accident or him not being the one who triggered it after all. We’d also need to scale back on all the terrible references to beloved GW1 characters “Gwen the Goremonger” hits me like a dagger to the heart every time I hear it, and seeing Rurik called a tyrant sent me into very long rant about how untrue that statement was.

Seriously though, how could Rurik be a tyrant if he never ruled? The man died leading his people across a dangerous mountain pass in an attempt to give them a better life!

Gurt.9368:

“Gwen the Goremonger” hits me like a dagger to the heart every time I hear it

Well to be fair, that’s more a thing of major respect among the charr rather then an insult.

Gwen would never be a viable proponent for peace talks. In that regard, Gwen’s hatred of the charr would rival King Adelberns.

It doesn’t blind her thinking process though, she was able to work with Pyre Fierceshot and his warband in that she didn’t kill them on sight.

That pain was always with her though and it didn’t let up much until she found love.

I don’t agree with throwing out the lore we have now. The story painted so far is epic and beautiful. There are some inconsistencies with ‘teh gods’, but eh.

I’m more of a modern human at any rate.

Don’t buy into the whole myriad of gods we have as being anything more then higher beings. Divine in origin? Maybe some of them. Gods in the truest sense? Nah.

I should make a charr.

Not really.

But, then again, I do have a worrying lack of empathy for pretty much everybody.

Celestina.2894:

For the ghosts as a whole? Yes

But for Adelbern? Dear god no, I hated everything about him in GW1 and I am glad he is suffering. I just wish he did not take Ascalon along with him.

Thank you!
Granted Rurik was a Kilroy Stoneskin idiot at times, but at least he knew the humans needed to get allies or die alone.

Adelbern’s folly cost all those good men and women their lives and afterlife. I do feel sorry for them and if possible I’d have my character help them rest finally, but they draw their swords at me. They become a threat at this point to which I have to smite them.

Honestly, the first time I saw Ralena, Nente, Adelbern, Vassar, etc in that scary enraged ghostform during the beta, i felt a stick in my heart T_T

I remember another life, where those people were my friends, they were kind, gentle, we were fighting for our home, for our lifes and our family, and now….they are just mindless killers

GW1 lives! <3

My main human character, an elementalist that descends from the flamesseker prophecies hero (like many of you here claim to be XP) is already a world explorer, which means that he had to help the charr. The only reason why he did so is because those ghosts, his ancestors, aren’t humans anymore. They don’t even respect human integrity anymore. Also, putting them to rest can be seen as being a merciful action.
I also think that, even though Ascalon used to be a charr land before humans came to Tyria, casting the Searing wasn’t a reasonable response to this and let’s remember that back in The Flameseeker Prophecies, the charr weren’t even a real civilization. They didn’t talk, only growled, and were savages. This barbaric and savage nature can be seen when they ban the ones that made it able to conquer Ascalon. The Flame Legion, the one who cast The Searing in Ascalon was after banished by the other legions because they believed in gods! Ok, they were not the best gods one can believe in, but the other legions should respect them, which did not happen.
Another thing I don’t agree with are the actions of the charr that have conquered Ascalon. Since they are there, and I’m not talking about the Searing anymore, they haven’t worried a bit about them being erasing human history and patrimony in these lands. They have built a city over Rin, and have swept several villages that had barely survided the Searing and replaced them with cold steel structures that completely ruin the landscape that is again trying to be like it once was in Pre-Searing Ascalon.
Also, I think that the truce conditions benefitted the charr and humans because the war stopped, but the charr got the Claw of the Khan-Ur while humans got nothing. While the charr got a precious heirloom of their race, they didn’t give anyhting back for example, Rurik’s sword Sohothin that was stolen by Rytlock Brimstone, a very good example of the savage charr way of thinking, the Stormcaller, exhibited in the Black Citadel, as a symbol of their victory and once again, of the human defeat. They never lose a chance to show off and crush humanity, but then claim to want a truce and peace between these races. Although some can be said to be inteligent, others are nothing but animals that have industrialized drastically and evolved in that field, making Ascalon uglier everyday.
And to finish, I also hate the fact that ArenaNet almost makes us hate Ascalonian people for wanting revenge, which is normal, since they saw their land be destroyed by wild animals. Making us kill Ralena, Vassar, Nente and Kasha, is almost childhood destroying, since these characters were a part of Guild Wars Prophecies player’s in-game life. Like it wasn’t enough the Searing, then the Foefire, and now charr erasing humanity traces in these lands. Honestly, I think that the charr’s will to conquer Ascalon so that all Legions could be happy is horrible and that’s why I’ll never like the charr or play as one!

I made a Charr character once and I deleted him right afterwards. I hate the Charr. I really really do. I don’t care that the Charr ruled Ascalon before the humans took it from them. I played GW1 when it first came out and for me, Ascalon is home. I played GW1 so much. I remember Ascalon City and Ashford Abbey and Fort Ranik and Duke Barradin’s Estate and I remember interacting with characters like Ivor Trueshot and Cappo Farrah and Pitney. I really liked Ascalon a lot. And I think part of the reason why I purposely never progressed very far into the game is because the Searing really upsets me.

So when I play as a human and I run around Ascalon and have to kill the ghosts of humans that I used to be a part of, it makes me mad. I honestly hate playing in Ascalon. I have such fond memories playing in Ascalon and I used to love fighting the Charr and killing them and doing it all for the sake of humanity. But it’s hard to accept that we lost. I don’t care if it’s a fictional game. It was awesomeness.

I hate the Charr. I hope the humans take back Ascalon one day and then after that, take back Orr. But of course, that will never happen. But oh well.

Calypso.5083:

… have swept several villages that had barely survided the Searing and replaced them with cold steel structures that completely ruin the landscape that is again trying to be like it once was in Pre-Searing Ascalon.

Well, they ain’t using hides like their savage ancestors anymore

… the charr got the Claw of the Khan-Ur while humans got nothing. While the charr got a precious heirloom of their race, they didn’t give anyhting back

The truce is more useful to the humans anyway, and by giving that heirloom to one faction they’ve exerted more influence over the Charr then they ever have since the days when Gwenn and company helped Pyre.

for example, Rurik’s sword Sohothin that was stolen by Rytlock Brimstone, a very good example of the savage charr way of thinking,

It’s a good weapon and Thackery more or less sanctioned it being held by Rytlock.

And to finish, I also hate the fact that ArenaNet almost makes us hate Ascalonian people for wanting revenge, which is normal, since they saw their land be destroyed by wild animals

Wrong, Searing happened 250 years ago so it has never been their land.

Making us kill Ralena, Vassar, Nente and Kasha, is almost childhood destroying, since these characters were a part of Guild Wars Prophecies player’s in-game life.

Aye, I understand, though I see angry ghosts. Maybe it helps to remember they died a long time ago. Would be better if we were to find a rightful heir to the throne but I don’t expect that to happen before Guildwars 3 – unless they’re rewriting the Charr starter area’s.

And, it wasn’t the Charr that were responsible for the foefire, you have Adelbern to thank for that.

Like it wasn’t enough the Searing, then the Foefire, and now charr erasing humanity traces in these lands. Honestly, I think that the charr’s will to conquer Ascalon so that all Legions could be happy is horrible and that’s why I’ll never like the charr or play as one!

Thanks to the truce humans walk freely and openly on the lands that used to be Ascalon. Don’t forget that.

We now have a truce with the Charr but we still get to hunt Charr, on Charr territory. Yay. Win-win.

JonnyBoy.2715:

I played GW1 when it first came out and for me, Ascalon is home. I played GW1 so much. I remember Ascalon City and Ashford Abbey and Fort Ranik and Duke Barradin’s Estate and I remember interacting with characters like Ivor Trueshot and Cappo Farrah and Pitney. I really liked Ascalon a lot. And I think part of the reason why I purposely never progressed very far into the game is because the Searing really upsets me.

Aye, Gwenns flute in the ruins of the little village near the abbey … now it hurts to wander near Ashford, it reminds me of pre-searing Ascalon so much. ANet did well, here, by creating controversy and inciting these feelings with us. Considering it’s a game ….

I want a big event where we officially re-take and rebuild Ascalon and make it a new capital for all races like LA

I don’t consider myself to be much of an RP’er. I have characters of each race, including Charr and I enjoyed playing through my personal story (Iron Legion engi). Yet I noticed it felt more discomfiting running around Ashford as a human than it did as Charr or Norn and yes, I did feel somewhat uncomfortable about killing the ghosts with the human.

JonnyBoy.2715:

I made a Charr character once and I deleted him right afterwards. I hate the Charr. I really really do. I don’t care that the Charr ruled Ascalon before the humans took it from them. I played GW1 when it first came out and for me, Ascalon is home. I played GW1 so much. I remember Ascalon City and Ashford Abbey and Fort Ranik and Duke Barradin’s Estate and I remember interacting with characters like Ivor Trueshot and Cappo Farrah and Pitney. I really liked Ascalon a lot. And I think part of the reason why I purposely never progressed very far into the game is because the Searing really upsets me.

So when I play as a human and I run around Ascalon and have to kill the ghosts of humans that I used to be a part of, it makes me mad. I honestly hate playing in Ascalon. I have such fond memories playing in Ascalon and I used to love fighting the Charr and killing them and doing it all for the sake of humanity. But it’s hard to accept that we lost. I don’t care if it’s a fictional game. It was awesomeness.

I hate the Charr. I hope the humans take back Ascalon one day and then after that, take back Orr. But of course, that will never happen. But oh well.

I’d like that very much, those charr idiots are nothing but savages! I’m so happy now that Flame and Frost took some of their homes! And I only helped the norn, not the charr! Maybe now they may know what is like to be kicked outta home! And I’ll never, never play a charr idiot!

Not after they started attacking me no. Humans are the invaders but then again so are the Charr. The land was orginal “owned” by the Forgotten. The Charr stomped them into the floor and claimed the land of Ascalon. When the six gods brought humans to Tyria they gave them magic. This gave the Humans a big advantage over the Charr that had no knowledge of such a power. This spured them to find gods to back them. Kind of like an arms race today. They found the Titans not knowing they truely served Abadon. You probably know the rest after this.