Guild Wars 2

You’re example is an example of fan-fic. So it isn’t applicable. Now if Tolkien actually had written that in a previously undiscovered book. Then it absolutley would be the lore of LotR.

By your logic, any major patch and expansion killed GW1 along time ago. Why get so angsty about GW2?

A history major especially should have a better understanding of how the story can change whne looking at it from one societies perspective or looking at it from a broader view. You should know how history has already changed as we’ve looked at accounts from the “losers” in history.

The history of tyria isn’t changed. It is expanded. it is now more true than it was in GW1 when you are looking at it from one characters eyes in one race. which is the point of view the writers delivered it by. What you’re asking for is a new game with no new content. No new characters. No new dungeons. No diffrent time frame. Only delivering the same thing would with possible diffrent game mechanics would be a way to avoid any and all retro-active editing. Might as well go back to GW1.

History changes as we learn more. Our understanding of history is constantly changing. We learn that historical heroes are flawed. we learn what their flaws are. And it is oftenn disappointing. But it is more true than what you used to think. What you’re doing is living in colonial Americas and then being upset becasue they turned into a powerful nation ruled by themselves. As time goes on, events change the face of the world. In GW1, we had one little piece of history. it had it’s own zeitgeist. Now we learn about a broader span of time and it is unreasonable to expect the same zeitgeist. that would be unrealistic and untruthful.

Well yes, if Tolkien had written that it would be applicable. I’m talking about a different writer using Tolkien’s world as a backstory for his/her own world. Which is the case here.

The first two expansions were beautiful additions to Prophesies, I find no fault with them, in fact I think they added to its richness tremendously. Why? Because they both added wonderful new content while staying true to the existing social/cultural structures that existed in the game. In other words, they made sense. Playing the EotN storyline is like playing in a different world using the same game mechanics.

It’s true that viewpoint matters in history, that’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying the other viewpoints you’re talking about either didn’t exist or didn’t matter to the GW1 universe. Asurans didn’t exist, Norn didn’t exist, Sylvari didn’t exist, nor Kodan, Quaggan, Hylek, etc… The Charr did…but if you have read any of my posts on them, you’d know I consider them a species akin to Grawl, and not a race.

They didn’t exist because the game was a human-centric game in a human-dominated world. That’s how the writers wrote it, it wasn’t my doing. And furthermore, they meant it to stay a human-centric game otherwise we would have seen more races in the first two expansions. The new writers involved in EotN, and this game, are the ones that created…well…something out of nothing.

Has it already been forgotten that the 3rd expansion was supposed to be another human-based campaign using a meso-american style? They trashed that lore when they decided to make a new game instead, and used that style(Aztec-ish pyramids) as the style the Asurans use.

It wasn’t one little piece of history, it was the history. What’s wrong with having a new game with new mechanics pay homage to its predecessor? And how does expanding on that equate to nothing new? Almost every game sequel out there follows the story-arc of its originator. Why? Because if it was successful enough to warrant a sequel it means it was good and people bought into the content. What we have now makes little sense to anyone steeped in GW1 lore.

I don’t think we’re debating writing as an artform or weather someone took something and added to it (in an awesome way from my point of view btw.) We were talking about who would win in a fight in GW2, elder dragons or Gods. In GW2 the Human Gods are not the strongest creatures in Tyria any more. What they were in GW1 is irrelevant. Furthermore, no one said the Gods ran scared, the silence of the Gods and the withdrawal of the avatars is to protect us from a god powered super dragon.

It’s still conjecture on the silence of the gods. As is whether or not they are made of magic, or that by eating them a dragon can become a super dragon lol. At any rate, the original topic was simple inquiry into their whereabouts or current condition.

As for a fight between the two, ofc the dragon would win. The gods currently don’t hold any real substantive power, or at least none that I have seen.

Obsidian.1328:

The gods currently don’t hold any real substantive power, or at least none that I have seen.

That’s just it, we (the players) have never seen/met any of the gods except for Abaddon and Dhuum, and they both were no where near their full capability.

So attempting to gauge the gods power when we’ve never actually witness one at full power isn’t fair at all.

SPOILER

well to be fair, zhaitan himself wasn’t all that impressive. he’s got tons of minions sure but that laser thingy used in killing him kinda abates the huge hype. :/ I certainly felt underwhelmed as compared to fighting the rogue gods.

We know that the death of a god leads to the creation of an energy vortex, which can be absorbed by a mortal to assume the god’s power. It doesn’t specify that the power is magical power specifically, but ArenaNet doesn’t feel the fanbase needs to be spoonfed information.

I don’t think we need Jeff or Ree to tapdance across the forum singing “If a dragon killed a god they could consume their power, tralalala!” to conclude that a creature that feeds on energy might be able to repeat Kormir’s accomplishment given an opportunity, and that this would be a legitimate fear from the perspective of the gods if the dragons were even close enough in power for this to be a possibility.

draxynnic.3719:

We know that the death of a god leads to the creation of an energy vortex, which can be absorbed by a mortal to assume the god’s power. It doesn’t specify that the power is magical power specifically, but ArenaNet doesn’t feel the fanbase needs to be spoonfed information.

I don’t think we need Jeff or Ree to tapdance across the forum singing “If a dragon killed a god they could consume their power, tralalala!” to conclude that a creature that feeds on energy might be able to repeat Kormir’s accomplishment given an opportunity, and that this would be a legitimate fear from the perspective of the gods if the dragons were even close enough in power for this to be a possibility.

can we get a round of applause for this person?

Hmm the fact that the forgotten were able to use magic that could not be corrupted by the elder dragons imply to me that they cannot consume ALL kinds of magic.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Forgotten

That’s true, but whatever it is that makes forgotten magic immune to draconic corruption doesn’t seem to have been extended to the power of the gods – Orr is FULL of corrupted divine magic, after all.

Perhaps it has to do with their creation. The Forgotten come from the mists, they weren’t “born” in tyria.

Here is why I chose the forgotten specifically:

The Forgotten are said to be linked to the Facets that reflect the power of the Human Gods.

Are you sure you want them to?

Obsidian.1328:

As a history major in college(which obviously contributes to my angst here), I am very attuned to the folly of modern writers when they try to portray the past in a light that doesn’t try to get as close to the truth as possible.

As a history major, you of all people should know that history, in no small part, is based on the perspective of the person tellign the story. It has been so for humans in the past. It’s even true to some extent for humans nowadays. And there’s nothing stopping the Guild Wars humans from seeing things from their perspective, especially at the time when they had little contact with other species. And even then, seperate belief systems existed. The Great Dwarf wasn’t part of human culture, and the Dwarves didn’t revere the human gods.

And on a side note, why would it be so impossible for omnipotent beings to represent themselves in the way best suited to aid their followers? For all we know, there could be an omnipotent being that shows itself as ‘the humand gods’ to the humans, as ‘eternal alchemy’ to the asura, and as ‘not existing’ to the charr. With beings that can virtually do anything, such a thing would very much be possible.

And furthermore, they meant it to stay a human-centric game otherwise we would have seen more races in the first two expansions.

We get the Tengu and the Centaurs. There’s also the Dwarves. All of them are more or less civilized races. The main difference was that, unlike the humans, they weren’t as advanced and expansionistic in their goals. As for the Charr, can you imagine Adelbern admitting that the Charr aren’t violent brutes with the intellect of a pea? Of course not.

Actually, the dwarves did acknowledge and, when appropriate, invoke the human gods – they just had their own figure as well.

Most belief systems we see in Guild Wars are at least compatible with human religion – they just focus on different views of the universe.

@ThiBash

Erm…the person telling the story is the writer, not fictional characters in that story. It’s the writer’s perspective that matters most, after all it’s his/her imagination and creativity that we are witnessing. How do you ask a fictional character his or her opinion??

And I meant more playable races, not just any race. There are dozens of semi-civilized races in GW1.

Maximillian Greil.1965:

It’s logical extrapolation. Gods made of magic, Dragons eat magic, ergo: dragons eat gods. Can you think of a better reason for the gods making themselves scarce?

Dude, I eat cows. It doesn’t mean I could kill and eat a rhino with my bare hands, whole. Your logic is flawed.

well if I understand it correctly, the forgotten who are linked to the power of the human gods are able to use magic that the elder dragons cannot corrupt so I say it’s an indication that gods cannot be eaten by them.

capuchinseven.8395:

Maximillian Greil.1965:

It’s logical extrapolation. Gods made of magic, Dragons eat magic, ergo: dragons eat gods. Can you think of a better reason for the gods making themselves scarce?

Dude, I eat cows. It doesn’t mean I could kill and eat a rhino with my bare hands, whole. Your logic is flawed.

sure you could. You should go try.

Leo Paul.1659:

well if I understand it correctly, the forgotten who are linked to the power of the human gods are able to use magic that the elder dragons cannot corrupt so I say it’s an indication that gods cannot be eaten by them.

It’s shown in Orr that Zhaitan can corrupt divine power, though. The Forgotten are allied and possibly to some extent empowered by the gods, but whatever their technique for protecting against and cleansing draconic corruption, it appears to be something connected to them than to the gods as a whole.

Otherwise the gods could have passed it on to humans and Orr’s statues and other defences and saved us all a lot of trouble.

This does make me wonder about the sylvari origins, though…

draxynnic.3719:

Leo Paul.1659:

well if I understand it correctly, the forgotten who are linked to the power of the human gods are able to use magic that the elder dragons cannot corrupt so I say it’s an indication that gods cannot be eaten by them.

It’s shown in Orr that Zhaitan can corrupt divine power, though. The Forgotten are allied and possibly to some extent empowered by the gods, but whatever their technique for protecting against and cleansing draconic corruption, it appears to be something connected to them than to the gods as a whole.

Otherwise the gods could have passed it on to humans and Orr’s statues and other defences and saved us all a lot of trouble.

This does make me wonder about the sylvari origins, though…

what about their origins? they grew from a tree.

Yes, but what is the background of that tree?

The sylvari are immune to draconic corruption (they can be killed, but not corrupted); Forgotten artifacts are, likewise, immune, and the Forgotten can even reverse draconic corruption. The sylvari themselves suspect they were birthed to fight the Elder Dragons – what if the Pale Tree species was engineered by the Forgotten, including being granted immunity to corruption, and their life cycle timed that they would appear at the same time as the dragons’ next likely awakening cycle?

draxynnic.3719:

Leo Paul.1659:

well if I understand it correctly, the forgotten who are linked to the power of the human gods are able to use magic that the elder dragons cannot corrupt so I say it’s an indication that gods cannot be eaten by them.

It’s shown in Orr that Zhaitan can corrupt divine power, though. The Forgotten are allied and possibly to some extent empowered by the gods, but whatever their technique for protecting against and cleansing draconic corruption, it appears to be something connected to them than to the gods as a whole.

Otherwise the gods could have passed it on to humans and Orr’s statues and other defences and saved us all a lot of trouble.

This does make me wonder about the sylvari origins, though…

I feel like the corrupted priests and statues are actually abandoned, that their ties to the human gods are already severed thus they can be influenced by the dragons. There is one specific quest (that Ascalonian relic that still bears some residual magic) was used to turn our character into a powerful Avatar of Balthazar that was able to decimate an army of Risen. What I think is that the links of the gods to tyria may have weakened, and thus the elder dragons were able to corrupt most of their followers. But seeing as those still blessed by a god’s power in one way or another, are used to overcome a predicament presented by the dragon implies that the gods and elder dragons do not have such a huge disparity in power.

As far as any official statement regarding the comparison:

The cataclysms that tore apart the land and flooded Lion’s Arch were not caused by natural forces, no more than were the earthquakes that freed the Destroyers in the northern Shiverpeaks. These were both caused by the surfacing of ancient powers—true dragons, more dangerous than anything Tyria has ever known before. Glint and Kuunavang were but youths, lesser powers to the ancients that came before. These mystic and terrifying creatures rival the gods themselves.

What i think is, the gods growing distant from tyria is more like a consequence, rather than a result of the dragon’s awakening. The forgotten are able to resist the dragon’s magic just because they are closer to them than perhaps we humans are.

draxynnic.3719:

It’s shown in Orr that Zhaitan can corrupt divine power, though.

These are mockeries, not corruptions. The priests are long dead and like the other Risen, no more then puppets, minions of a necromancer.

This does make me wonder about the sylvari origins, though…

They are placed on Tyria specifically to counter the Dragon.

What’s odd about the Sylvari is that houses similar to theirs can be found throughout the Maguuma Jungle in GW1

It’s the statues that I’m referring to, not the priest(esse)s themselves.

Those statues clearly retain some element of divine power. The effect of each statue, when active, is related to the power of the god it used to represent. If the effects of the statues were not a corruption of divine power within the shrines and cathedrals, Zhaitan would not be restricted to only generating these effects within a certain distance of the statues, nor would capturing the cathedrals neutralise the statues – instead, Zhaitan would be able to generate the effects of the statues wherever and whenever he wanted.

On the sylvari being placed specifically to counter the dragons – that’s hypothesised, but we don’t know that. The observation that the sylvari are immune to corruption and the Forgotten can make things that are resistant to corruption is suggestive of who might have placed them if they were, but it could all still be coincidence.

draxynnic.3719:

It’s the statues that I’m referring to, not the priest(esse)s themselves.

Those statues clearly retain some element of divine power. The effect of each statue, when active, is related to the power of the god it used to represent. If the effects of the statues were not a corruption of divine power within the shrines and cathedrals, Zhaitan would not be restricted to only generating these effects within a certain distance of the statues, nor would capturing the cathedrals neutralise the statues – instead, Zhaitan would be able to generate the effects of the statues wherever and whenever he wanted.

On the sylvari being placed specifically to counter the dragons – that’s hypothesised, but we don’t know that. The observation that the sylvari are immune to corruption and the Forgotten can make things that are resistant to corruption is suggestive of who might have placed them if they were, but it could all still be coincidence.

Ah but those statues, even in GW1, had to have the favor of the gods to be activated.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Statue

These are large structures unique to each god. For example, Balthazar’s statue is of himself in an upright pose, holding a sword. Melandru’s statue is a tree. These statues change depending on whether the world has the Favor of the Gods or not. When you do, Balthazar’s statue is on fire; when the favor of the Gods is not currently owned by your home, it is a plain rock statue. Melandru’s statue will be alive, with running water and be in blossom when you have the favor, and will be a dead plant when you do not.

Let’s also take into consideration what the actual description of an altar is like in the game:

This altar to the goddess Dwayna radiates with a vibrant, hopeful energy, making it an island of solace amidst the corrupion that has poisoned Orr.

Though it has been centuries since human worshippers left offerings at this colossal depiction of Lyssa, twin goddess of beauty and illusion, her radiance still captivates all who gaze upon it.

Statue of Grenth:

This statue promises peace in the Mists beyond this world. It remains untouched by Zhaitan’s corruption.

:)

Some of those texts are likely assuming that they’re being held by the Pact at the time the skill point is claimed. The colossal statues of Lyssa, for instance, are corrupted – Lyssa wasn’t showing her ribs at the time the statues were initially carved. Reportedly, until the recent update her statues over the Cathedral of Light were restored to their original form while the pact held the altar – I didn’t notice it myself, and post-patch they seem to be in their corrupted form permanently.

In fact, it wouldn’t surprise me if the text at the skill points at the original statues are also assuming that the Pact holds the relevant cathedral – the statue auras do, after all, make it significantly harder to access them.

And while the statues in GW1 required favour to be activated, that doesn’t mean that the latent divine power wasn’t latent in them beforehand… or that the statues and shrines in Orr, the fields surrounding the city of the gods themselves, couldn’t have had a more permanent empowerment.

In the case of Grenth – they’re physically untouched, yes. This is as opposed to statues of other gods within Orr that have been transformed into undead mockeries. It’s possibly that Zhaitan didn’t feel the need to transform Grenth’s appearance because Grenth already had a look of undeath to begin with, so when Zhaitan’s control is severed and the statue isn’t radiating an aura of doom, it appears untouched.

This is my point: People think that these statues being corrupted mean that the gods themselves are corruptible when in fact, these statues may or may not bear the blessing of the god it is attribute to if (my assumption) people do nothing significant to gain their favor during that time. By doing the DE, we are able to gain their favor and these statues become active. What I’m trying to say is that when the ties to the particular god is severed, his or her servants or relics CAN be corrupted, but only because of the absence of the favor of the god, not in spite of having it.

draxynnic.3719:

It’s the statues that I’m referring to, not the priest(esse)s themselves.

Those statues clearly retain some element of divine power. The effect of each statue, when active, is related to the power of the god it used to represent.

And what makes it so certain that all of that is not Zaithan’s intention? He’s fighting a war, demotivating the enemy will help his cause. What could be more demoralising then making your enemy believe you have some control over his Gods and their power?

That they can be cut off by blocking off Zhaitan’s access to the cathedrals. Wouldn’t it be more demoralising if every effort to shut down the statues failed? Especially since the gods are only the gods of a fraction of the Pact’s strength?

draxynnic.3719:

Yes, but what is the background of that tree?

The sylvari are immune to draconic corruption (they can be killed, but not corrupted); Forgotten artifacts are, likewise, immune, and the Forgotten can even reverse draconic corruption. The sylvari themselves suspect they were birthed to fight the Elder Dragons – what if the Pale Tree species was engineered by the Forgotten, including being granted immunity to corruption, and their life cycle timed that they would appear at the same time as the dragons’ next likely awakening cycle?

ventari planted the tree.

sigh

Please give me some credit and assume that I do in fact know things that have been known since 2007, okay? I’ve been following Guild Wars lore since before ArenaNet even started considering Guild Wars 2, you know.

You’re also wrong on the details, by the way. Ronan planted the seed, Ventari just tended it. But that’s beside the point.

The real question is… where did those seeds come from? Why is there no record of the existence of the sylvari species prior to Ronan finding that cave? Why don’t we see any indications of a previous generation of sylvari, and why did this generation (which, I feel the need to point out before getting trolled with another pat answer, includes more than one Tree, so “because that’s when Ronan planted it” isn’t a complete answer) arise just as the dragons did?

If the sylvari species was created by the Forgotten to produce soldiers for the next arising, that would explain all those questions, as well as the question of why sylvari minds are apparently immune (or at least resistant) to dragon corruption.

draxynnic.3719:

That they can be cut off by blocking off Zhaitan’s access to the cathedrals. Wouldn’t it be more demoralising if every effort to shut down the statues failed? Especially since the gods are only the gods of a fraction of the Pact’s strength?

Demoralising even part of your enemies forces is brings victorie close. Also, while my view on the pact may be influenced by having a human character, I have the impression that the humans are the main initiatior behind formation of the Pact and getting the five races fighting together.

Zhaitan is apparently not always capable of preventing the pact from taking the temples and perhaps, as suggested, when the pact takes control and pushes the risen away, the shrines become ‘active’ and push away Zhaitan’s influence even further.

The fact that these battles go back and forth is an indication that if any residual magic was actually present in those shrines, Zhaitan is not able to ‘take’ it.

draxynnic.3719:

sigh

Please give me some credit and assume that I do in fact know things that have been known since 2007, okay? I’ve been following Guild Wars lore since before ArenaNet even started considering Guild Wars 2, you know.

You’re also wrong on the details, by the way. Ronan planted the seed, Ventari just tended it. But that’s beside the point.

The real question is… where did those seeds come from? Why is there no record of the existence of the sylvari species prior to Ronan finding that cave? Why don’t we see any indications of a previous generation of sylvari, and why did this generation (which, I feel the need to point out before getting trolled with another pat answer, includes more than one Tree, so “because that’s when Ronan planted it” isn’t a complete answer) arise just as the dragons did?

If the sylvari species was created by the Forgotten to produce soldiers for the next arising, that would explain all those questions, as well as the question of why sylvari minds are apparently immune (or at least resistant) to dragon corruption.

because Anet needed to add another race and there isn’t really an explanation needed. Not EVERYTHING has to make sense.

Well there’s always the theory that the Sylvari and the Pale Tree are simply another Dragon. One that has a compatible morality with the rest of the world.

Possibly as a result of Ventari’s tablet influencing it.

If you pay attention to the dynamic events around the temples, they’re based around shutting off the flow of power through the temples. It’s not a case of the altar reconnecting to the gods when captured and thus pushing away Zhaitan’s influence – instead, in most cases, asura devices are shown being used to actively block off Zhaitan’s control.

If Zhaitan’s intent was demoralisation and the power came entirely from him and not from corrupting the divine power from the shrines, then allowing the effect to be dispelled is going the wrong way about it. It would be much more effective if, say, he allowed the attackers to believe they’d lifted the effects, and then bring it back, more powerful and centred directly on the temple just as another wave of Risen (kept in reserve specifically for this purpose) sweeps in to mop up. Instead, we see that the temples can in fact be shut down, and Zhaitan is then denied the effects associated with that temple until Zhaitan’s forces retake the temple – implying that he does in fact need the power within the temples to achieve those effects.

So why doesn’t he simply eat them? Simple. The dragons are intelligent – he probably decided that the value of leaving such a defence network intact was greater than its value as food.

Incidentally, I’ve played through the personal story, and I didn’t get any impression that humans were particularly important in the foundation of the Pact. That was Trahearne, the PC, and the leaders of the orders (only two of which are human), and in none of those cases is it important that a particular character is human. The races that were indispensable to the Pact’s efforts were the asura, charr, and sylvari – there’s only one case where it’s important that a particular character is human, and that’s a) one of the optional branches, and b) she gets upstaged by an asura even then.

Yes, it’s possible that demoralisation of a proportion of the Pact’s forces gave Zhaitan some advantage – but if he was the source of the effects of the statues rather than relying on corrupting the power from the shrines and temples, I’d say he would have been much better off with the tangible benefit of keeping the effects up permanently – or, even better, decoupling them from the statues entirely and having the effect manifest in strategic locations like chokepoints and, oh, any and all locations where the Pact attempt to set up a base within Orr.

Two of the three orders are human in origin, one Charr. Off all the organisations in Tyria these three combined their forces and through them the five races become allies in the fight against the dragons and form the Pact.

Without the human efforts to come to a truce with them the Charr likely wouldn’t have been a part of the Pact. And quite possibly, the humans and the Norn wouldn’t have been in it either. Without the truce the Charr would have remained preoccupied with Ebonhawk and Kraltorik and the Norn with Jormag. It’s the truce between Kryta and the Charr that frees up enough resources to enable all five to focus those resources on the dragon.

Why would the dragon have a choice when his forces are driven away and his influence/effect is dispelled? His forces take the temple and make the air all green, until the Pact drives them away again and cleans things up. Rinse and repeat. I don’t see any lingering divine power having to take a role in any of it.

Ironic as it is, the history of the Durmand Priory in this discussion is irrelevant when measured against the present. There is no indication that humans remain a significant portion of the Durmand Priory leadership – the characters seen in the Welcome to the Priory cinematic are an asura (Gixx), a norn (Wynnet Fairhaired) and a sylvari (Sieran). Most leadership roles we see in the modern Priory appear to be taken by asura (with Gixx showing outright contempt for human beliefs), and apart from the human 20-30 Priory representative, the only human member of the Priory that I can think of that stands out enough to be remembered offhand is Scholar Vivian. Despite its founding, it seems to be the asura that are the dominant race in the Priory now.

With the Order of Whispers, you actually have a leg to stand on there, since the Order of Whispers remain the only order out of the three that has representatives of humanity among its leadership. However, I would put the focus somewhat differently – out of three orders, only one has one or more humans in leadership roles.

I’d contest your assertion about humans being a unifying force, starting with pointing out that the human-charr conflict is actually the greatest dividing force among the races, but it’s actually not really relevant. The reason it’s not relevant is that the unification happened before the Pact saw the first Orrian shrine, and after that, they were committed. If humans were theoretically to bail on reaching Orr, the charr might actually become more united with no longer having concerns about fighting beside humans, norn and asura would likely take it as proof of human inferiority and press on to prove their own superiority, and the sylvari regard the destruction of the dragons as pretty close to their holy mission. Losing humanity’s manpower would hurt, but it’s not likely to cause the Pact to fall apart entirely, and it’s certainly not as crippling as losing charr war machines, asura magitech, or even the sylvari immunity to corruption would be.

Considering that the Pact also contains lesser races, and that humans aren’t really bringing anything special to the table, it’s likely that humans represent less than 20% of the Pact’s total strength. Among those humans, some just aren’t going to care about the defilement of the shrines, while others may be filled with crusading zeal and inspired to press on all the harder to avenge the blasphemy. So you could have less than 10% of the Pact being subject to demoralisation, and even demoralised troops may still fight representing a still lower deterioration of the Pact’s war effort – thus, the benefit to Zhaitan of demoralising rather than the tangible benefit of decoupling the statue effects from the statues and placing them in strategic locations becomes increasingly doubtful.

However, this all pales to the main flaw of your argument:

Why would the dragon have a choice when his forces are driven away and his influence/effect is dispelled? His forces take the temple and make the air all green, until the Pact drives them away again and cleans things up. Rinse and repeat. I don’t see any lingering divine power having to take a role in any of it.

This is in direct conflict with the actual mechanics of the temples.

First, simply driving away the Risen is not itself a sufficient condition to disable a temple effect. In the Dwayna event chain, for instance, driving away the Risen priestess is only the second step of a four step chain – without spoiling it, it requires disabling an additional defence of the temple that is unrelated to the Risen in order to gain access to the altar and shut it down. In some events a big deal is made of shutting down the temple, in others it simply happens with little fanfare, but afterwards there’s always a little asura device whose purpose is to shut down the temple.

Secondly, most of the cathedrals actually don’t have the green shimmer within the vicinity of the temple itself, and those that do, do so because they have secondary statues nearby. Meanwhile, secondary shrines activate or deactivate according to the status of the cathedral, regardless of whether the area around an individual shrine is controlled by Risen or the Pact. Never at any point do you clear an area of Risen and thus the green shimmer disappears from that area – instead, you block off the flow of power from an area that lacks said green shimmer, and then that effect disappears from every linked statue.

Clearly, the cathedrals are acting as a conduit, feeding power to the shrines while lacking the ability to generate similar effects directly from themselves. Now, if Zhaitan was generating the effect independently of corrupted divine power within the statues, and did somehow feel that the psychological warfare aspect was more valuable than concentrating the effects in strategic locations like landing points, gates and chokepoints where they’d do the most good, then one would expect the statue effects to either be generated independently at each statue, or, if Zhaitan did feel that it was better for psychological or practical reasons to use the cathedrals as central conduits, then at the very least he could place the cathedral’s statue effect over the cathedral itself to make it that much more difficult to dislodge.

That he doesn’t indicates that Zhaitan’s use of the statues is confined by the properties of a magic not entirely his own – the corrupted divine power remaining within the shrines and temples of Orr.

While we are talking about gods, there is still in theory one god left on Tyria, and wouldn’t you know it, he happens to hate the concept of resurrection and undeath because he though it was a bad idea. Right now, with Zhaitan, he’s kinda entitled to the infamous “I told you so.”

Just saying, he’s just one padlock away from being able to clean this mess… and maybe reap a bit of vengeance while he’s at it, but still, just saying…

I’d vouch for that guy.

Addendum: He would also get rid of that pesky ghost problem in Ascalon while he’s there.

Here I found these:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cathedral_of_Silence

The Cathedral of Silence, also known as the Shrine of the Reapers, is the first temple of Grenth ever built. Of all temples in Orr, it is the most structurally stable after the Cataclysm, due to the crypts built into it. Along with this, it has been corrupted the least, though Zhaitan’s risen minions still utilize its powers as they do the other temples of Orr.

Corrupted statues
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Corrupted_statues

On Orr there are statues of the six gods which have been corrupted by Zhaitan’s influence. Each statue has an AoE (Area of Effect) status that negatively affects players if that gods respective temple is not in the players control or if said temple is contested.

When contested, statues of the corresponding god become corrupted in Orr. This takes the form of a green veil marking the area and confers a negative effect on any player within it.

It can be interpreted however we want, but what I take from these personally is that the power of a god residing within structures are merely ‘utilized’ by the one in control of it. It isn’t exactly corruptible, as it is more ‘malleable/flexible’ of sorts. It has been stated that the gods has been increasingly absent from Tyria, and what I think happened is that the magic these statues possess are residual and thus aren’t connected to the god itself anymore.

Again, I believe that a severed tie from a god causes their magic to go rogue or something. It is manipulated by Zhaitan because of their absence. The closer [favored] an object/person is to a particular god, the more resistant it/he/she becomes against corruption. If you think about it, it kinda shows that at LEAST a god’s power is equal to Zhaitan’s.

draxynnic.3719:

Ironic as it is, the history of the Durmand Priory in this discussion is irrelevant …

It’s a strength of each of these orders to focus on their core interest and bring together individuals that share that interest regardless of race. I find it interesting that it these open organisations were born from the two more war-minded species, the human and charr.

I’d contest your assertion about humans being a unifying force, starting with pointing out that the human-charr conflict is actually the greatest dividing force among the races, but it’s actually not really relevant.

It’s mainly the Charr that kept the conflict going, for more then a millenium.

Humans take the biggest risks by (a) giving the artefact to the Charr and (b) allowing them closer to Ebonhawke

The reason it’s not relevant is that the unification happened before the Pact saw the first Orrian shrine, and after that, they were committed.

Without the truce between the Charr and Kryta there would be no Pact. Enabling this alliance against the Dragons was an important motivation behind the the truce. Speculations about humans bailing out of the pact are pointless.

draxynnic.3719:

… if Zhaitan did feel that it was better for psychological or practical reasons to use the cathedrals as central conduits, then at the very least he could place the cathedral’s statue effect over the cathedral itself to make it that much more difficult to dislodge.

That he doesn’t indicates that Zhaitan’s use of the statues is confined by the properties of a magic not entirely his own – the corrupted divine power remaining within the shrines and temples of Orr.

That’s interesting, the temples and statues could form a passive network usable for either divine or dragon magic, we could never tell from this network if what we see is dragin magic or (corrupted) divine magic. But if there is a divine power preventing the dragon from pulling his tricks there then that would rather indicate this power is not corrupted.
Perhaps the uncorrupted passage you see in the events is even the result of direct intervention from the human deities?

The current unexplained silence of the gods is simple:

In GW1, the gods’ avatars played a game-mechanics role, and they appeared at shrines dedicated to their god.

In GW2, they no longer play a game mechanics role. Thus they aren’t needed, and something has to be said as to why they don’t appear at their shrines.

Maybe this will be elaborated upon in the future, but I don’t think that much more can be said about this than that, since not enough information is given anywhere about it. Other than that, than it’s 250 years in the future and changes are inevitable.

frans.8092:

That’s interesting, the temples and statues could form a passive network usable for either divine or dragon magic, we could never tell from this network if what we see is dragin magic or (corrupted) divine magic. But if there is a divine power preventing the dragon from pulling his tricks there then that would rather indicate this power is not corrupted.
Perhaps the uncorrupted passage you see in the events is even the result of direct intervention from the human deities?

My point was not that there was some power preventing the dragon from pulling tricks, it’s that the dragon is pulling tricks with the statues because it’s using power from the statues that isn’t its own.

The interesting thing, is that it seems, that some Gods are left in Tyria.
The Shadow Behemoth is an example of their presence and influence.

And maybe u can help me lore wise:
The magic comes from Gods from what I understand, so how come the Charr not believing in any “greater power” have access to it, well except from Flame Legion I suppose?

Because the magic currently used by mortal spellcasters isn’t sourced from the gods, at least not directly. The original stone that was broken into pieces was an artifact of the Seers, constructed to contain and hide Tyria’s magic that hadn’t already been corrupted by the dragons. The magic granted by the gods in 1 BE is the magic from this artifact – it’s not their own power being granted to their followers, it’s that they unlocked the artifact to increase the amount of magic available to everyone. (And then restricted it again by breaking it into four schools of magic).

There is some evidence of magic coming directly from the gods – human racial skills, records of humans using magic against the charr during the founding of Ascalon – but most of the magic seen in Guild Wars comes from the bloodstones. The human gods made it available to mortals and set some rules over its use, but they can’t stop nonbelievers or even enemies from using it.

(It’s also worth noting that there was at least some magic around beforehand – asura records indicate that magic was intensified (not initially appearing) around 1BE, before weakening again (but not all the way to the initial level). The source of this magic isn’t readily explained – I’d guess it’s a mix of new magic being generated from sites of magical significance (such as some skill points) and dragon magic being safer to harness when the dragons are asleep.)

Ehh…the gods created the Bloodstones, not the seers. They were created to contain the magic that Abaddon had gifted to humans because humans were abusing magic. Magic, on its own, came either directly, or indirectly through the Bloodstones, from the gods…that’s the whole point of them. The gods placed the combined stones(5 pieces) into some volcano in the Ring of Fire for safe keeping. But it later erupted(/facepalm gods…nice planning) and hurled the 5 pieces out over the world. There was 1 in the original game we come in contact with in Magumma, and 1 more in EotN in Sparkfly Fen. Can’t remember right now if there were more we see.

As to who has access to magic, it was assumed magic was a favor of the gods…at least it was in GW1. There are dozens of skills/spells named after the gods from there, and shrines all over the place that gave you magical buffs.

It was just changed for GW2 lore is all.

The gods made the Bloodstones out of a single stone that the Seers used to contain magic and hide it from the dragons during the last awakening. The gods first unlocked this stone so its powers were available to spellcasters, and then broke it up to create the separate schools of magic when it turned out that having the full power of the single stone available was too much for mortals to handle responsibly.

The creation of the original stone by the Seers is revealed in one of the Arah explorable paths.

While the gods can enhance a follower’s capability to use magic, they don’t have direct control of it – once the original proto-bloodstone was unlocked, anyone could learn to use magic with or without the sanction of the gods.

^huh?

That’s not how it read in GW1. Magic existed before the stones, and was being used by humans. It’s the whole reason for the creation of the stones in the first place. The dragons had nothing to do with it, regardless of what the Arah story-path said. There are excerpts from both the wiki, and in-game lore/events that go along with this. They were separated into 4 schools of magic(Preservation, Aggression, Destruction, and Denial) with the 5th being the keystone sealed with the human King Doric’s blood. Hence the term “Bloodstone.”

Now you’re quibbling with lore from the primary source – within the game.

Here’s the sequence of events:

1) Magic was unrestricted, and freely available throughout the world.

2) The dragons awoke (previous awakening) and started devouring magic.

3) On observing that the dragons were devouring magic, the Seers captured all the magic they could and sealed it within a stone. Let’s call it the Seerstone to avoid confusion. While it seems they didn’t manage to get all magic, it did substantially reduce the magic available, possibly contributing to the dragons going into hibernation and the subsequent fall of jotun civilisation.

4) The gods arrive on the world, bringing humans with them.

Now we can start putting some dates down:

Pre-1BE: Magic continues to be used by some magic-using races, but in a weaker state than it is today. Canthan humans develop the ritualist tradition, which to an extent sidesteps the scarcity of magic on Tyria by drawing power from the Mists instead.

115-40BE: The gods take disciples from among humanity and grant them gifts of magic. It’s unclear at this point whether this magic is coming from the seerstone, the gods themselves, or some other source.

1BE: Abaddon unlocks the Seerstone, making its magic available for the use of all. Asura record an increase in the power of magic, while surface races use the magic to war on one another, prompting Doric to petition for the reversal of this gift.

0BE: The gods (apart from Abaddon, who wasn’t invited) decide to ameliorate magic rather than remove it altogether. They break the Seerstone into five pieces to create the Bloodstones, and thereby separate the schools of magic, an event also recorded independently by the asura. Abaddon then throws a big hissy fit and… well, you know the rest.

These are the sequence of events. None of the new lore, from the Seer path or elsewhere, contradicts with prior lore, and to deny the Seer path is to deny things that ArenaNet has told us from within the game.