Guild Wars 2

First off I’d like to say that I love GW2, it’s the most fun I’ve had in Themepark MMO in ages. I’m 96% World complete on my Charr Necromancer and have had a good old time the whole way through.

There is a major exception to this fun however, and it happened when facing one of the main human enemies, called separatists. The separatists are a rowdy bunch generally opposed to peace and the human monarchy. The separatists constantly hatch plans to foil the human government and subvert the established authority.

In other zones, I would spend my time fighting off marauding trolls, dragon-crazed cultists in exciting and heroic ventures- but when I came back to the human zones my stomache turned because I knew that somewhere tucked away were some separatists for me to oppress.

In the human zones I spent my time kicking workers who fall behind in their seeming indentured servitude to the human war machine, seeking out and killing dissenting voices to the human government and overall keeping the human settlements ‘in line’.

It never really struck me exactly the depravity I was being asked being to commit until today I came upon a task in Ebonhawke that had me “Help the people of Ebonhawke”. Ebonehawke is a large human town tucked into the southwest corner of Fields of Ruin. Like many human settlements it has a “Separatist problem”.

The manner in which you solve this task IS the problem and my problem with much of the human zone. There are three ways to complete this task- one; talk people out of being a separatist. Nothing wrong with that one. Two; tear down propaganda from the city walls. Nothing really morally objectionable there, just helping out the oppressors maintain the status quo. Three; Drag separatists out of their homes and kill them in the streets. Holy crap. I could not believe that a game in this day and age would have me running around acting like the Gestapo of Nazi Germany.

You walk up to a door in Ebonhawke, knock, the person comes outside and you fight them to death right outside their own homes, presumably grabbing them to bring them out to fight you. This is just tasteless. I don’t know what kind of creative oversight there is in this game, but it is simply disgusting to have this as a task. I finished the task by talking to people instead of perusing this evil activity.

Separatists. It wasn’t OK when the prequel trilogy of Star Wars did it, and its not OK when GW2 does it. Why do I care about this kind of thing? Because it is the real world leaking into fantasy in favor of the totalitarian/dictator.

Everybody knows that freedoms are evaporating all around the civilized worlds in favor of more government. What everybody does not know when they watch an episode of CSI where the cop breaks the law to get a confession or a video game where you are made to suppress people through force is real world history. Specifically the “Gleichschaltung” also known as “coordination” where an entire society is brought around to a way of thinking through being made accustomed to a specific doctrine and way of thinking and to control as many aspects of life as possible. The Nazis did this by leaking their dogma into the culture in as many avenues as possible. After a while, they found that people thought it was fashionable and would do it on their own.

I think that is what has happened here. Without much thought as to what we are being asked to do to human beings who simply don’t share an opinion with the majority, these series of offensive tasks were added to the game.

Again, I would like to reiterate that I am not trying to take a swipe in anyone at Arenanet. I am trying to be as constructive as I can, but this is a serious problem in the game.

I don’t expect this content to be removed or changed just based on my displeasure, but please please please in the future consider what you have added to the game and if it supports or asks players to perform such terrible acts.

You are searching for Separatist hide-outs and they attack you first. You do not drag anyone out and attack them unprovoked.

You’re reading too much into this. Far, faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar too much.

Video game storytelling != fairy tales. Also keep in mind that killing a separatist in Guild Wars 2 does not, in any way, equate to doing such things in real life. “Terrible acts”, you say. I wouldn’t call “Target Next→ use attack skills” as a terrible act. Its playing a game.

In the real world there is a great amount of despicable things done by humanity. In any fictional world worth taking seriously, there’s going to be equal amounts of it. Stories without any conflict are uninteresting and not compelling. I would even say your distaste at the events in the game is a good thing because it challenges something in you. The game isn’t meant to teach you “this is right”, and if people are honestly swayed by it to believe those actions are ‘right’ then they shouldn’t be playing video games to begin with.

I disagree strongly that this is “a serious problem”. Its a fictional world with conflict and evil. Which, looking at history, is the basic story of humanity. I’d rather areas/stories like this are brought out into view rather than ignored and “we’ll pretend this never happens”.

Oglaf.1074:

You are searching for Separatist hide-outs and they attack you first.

You’re reading too much into this.

Yeah, you are knocking an a “Suspicious door”. Homes generally are not suspicious, unless, of course, if they are being used as a bad-guy hideout. I have yet to face a moral quandary fighting those who were fighting me in the game.

But, you mention a “human war machine” in a pejorative manner. I think your issues go beyond the moral choices offered by the game where good and evil are fairly well-defined. I may be wrong but it sounds like the moral dilemma is coming from the views you bring to game.

Dudeface.8102:

Fbut when I came back to the human zones my stomache turned because I knew that somewhere tucked away were some separatists for me to oppress.

In the human zones I spent my time kicking workers who fall behind in their seeming indentured servitude to the human war machine, seeking out and killing dissenting voices to the human government and overall keeping the human settlements ‘in line’.

Wait, in what human areas are you talking about? I recall a lot of bandits in Queensdale and such, but separatists are almost entirely specific to the Ascalon region. Also, Divinity’s Reach doesn’t really have anything against the separatists, the separatists are actively attacking any humans allied with Divinity’s Reach because they support peaceful relations with the Charr.

While you were in Ebonhawke did you not notice the event where separatists begin bombing a section of the city to try and “remind the inhabitants of what the charr did during the searing”?

Going back to human areas, if you have problems with beating up on bandits, know that some of the human story lines connect the bandits to the White Mantle, and look up that group from Guild Wars 1.

Omg I hadnt really thought about it, but yer right! Hahaha I remember those quests. Suspicious Door, Suspicious Bushes… just people who dont agree with Jenna hiding out. I’m not really offended, but the brutality of it is cast in a totally new light. Win.

We see nothing wrong with this just and lawfull treatment of the Separatists, these radicals formenting revolt against the crown refusing to pay taxes or respect our authority.
No good ever comes for lawless rebelion mark my words these Separatists win 200 years from now you will regret it.

King George the III

You need to go into Guild Wars 1’s official wiki and read the lore between the charr and the humans, and also the lore of the White Mantle. The charr and humans have been beating eachother to bloody bits for thousands of years in violent warfare. The charr almost wiped humanity from the face of the planet.

The separatist viewpoint of hatred against the government and the charr is understandable—but also extremely dangerous. The separatists are those who have lost too much in the charr/human war, and can’t bring themselves to forgive. Yet, if their viewpoint spreads, it means the end of humanity. A continued war with the charr or the government in the face of the dragons’ threat would mean the entire race going extinct. So you decide what’s better: killing rebels without mercy, or having your whole species go extinct? Because that’s really what it’s come down to.

In terms of taking down separatist propoganda—that propoganda states that the charr are monsters, and that they should be slaughtered without mercy. I don’t see anything wrong with removing propoganda meant to incite racial warfare….
As for murdering separatists in Ebonhawke, you just get them to come out of their houses. It’s THEY who attack you first.

Yeah, I’ll admit that I felt a little weird doing that quest. Not as uncomfortable as some parts of SWTOR, granted, but at least there the effect was hopefully intended. However, I’m also a rhetoric student, so I’m probably WAY more sensitive to this kind of thing than the majority of players.

I honestly don’t believe that there was any kind of intentional political agenda behind the Ebonhawke quest. I don’t think it’s disturbing enough to warrant removal even for the people who do think about the quest more deeply than was likely intended. It’s just a case where the writers didn’t think something through.

Fight the power!

Help! Help! We’re being repressed!

It would be great if GW2 had complicated, original-EQ-style factions where players made choices that impacted the way NPCs reacted to them and, with enough time and effort, could change sides.

It probably wouldn’t work so well in GW2 because it’d require an awful lot of extra work, but maybe one day we’ll be able to join forces with the Centaurs or Separatists and overtake the repressive Humans! … although not likely.

Well, even if we are to take a quest to have such deep meaning, it would make sense in the context. Humans are living under a monarchy; the monarch is the supreme ruler, it’s not a democracy, nor does it allow for dissidents that question the authority of the Supreme Ruler. This is how anti-government groups were dealt with.
GW2 is a fairy-taleish setting, yes, but that doesn’t mean it cannot allow for some hint that a darker political underbelly exists. The Queen loves her people, but it’s not like she’s particularly keen on being opposed.

Overall, though, I think the “kill separatists” arises from the need for human areas to have unique enemies, and different options for DEs/Hearts, and not anything much deeper than that.

Too bad we don’t have the option of siding with them, or maybe getting a more in-depth look into their cause (like maybe from a recruiter like The Inquest has). Really, for being the human equivalent of The Inquest/Nightmare Court/ Flame Legion, separatists have nearly zero detail.

I didn’t have much trouble with that quest, because I assumed the “suspicious doors” led to hide-outs or criminal hideaways.

I did have a bit of a problem with the Norn quest in Wayfarer Foothills that has you raiding a Dredge mine and killing the workers. Not just the soldiers, the workers too— the ones who spawn unaggressive.

Neilos Tyrhanos.5427:

I did have a bit of a problem with the Norn quest in Wayfarer Foothills that has you raiding a Dredge mine and killing the workers. Not just the soldiers, the workers too— the ones who spawn unaggressive.

I was always bothered by killing off dredge. They aren’t bad, they’re just afraid of others because they’ve been abused as a race so many times. And when the workers break into song, it’s adorable XD. So yeah, I’ve been desensitized, but if I could have chosen dredge for racial sympathy, I would have done so

I think this argument boils down to that same stance commonly seen in real life, actually.

“That terrorist doesn’t have basic rights and humanity! He killed people, that makes him worth less than me, and thus I can do whatever I want to him!”

You wanna kill the Separatists planting bombs, okay, that’s fair, they’re actually committing a crime in public and trying to commit mass murder in full view of everyone. The ones hiding inside their own house, though? Wouldn’t it be a tad more appropriate to, like, bring a warrant, preferably with the authority of the local militia behind it?

I’m not saying I sympathize with the Separatists, mind, but the whole “knock on a door and suddenly you’re killing Separatists in public” thing does seem a tad awkward in retrospect. And why exactly are Separatists just leaping out of the house to attack you simply for knocking? That whole house option just feels a bit weird.

You’ve never played GTA I guess? Pulling people out of there cars into the streets and executing them with guns. This kind of stuff has been in games for a while.

You took this out of context however as they attack you first. You aren’t dragging them out and executing them as I stated above.

The Seperatist issue bugged me too. Sure they may be misguided terrorists who engage in the only mission that actually gets an emotional reaction from me (trying to attack an innocent charr and his fireworks), but going into Ebonhawke, the coolest place in all of Tyria, to do a ‘Night and Fog’ imitation door to door does bug me.

In addition, the “Fallen Angels” (what a great name for a ‘heroic’ organization) come across more as bored occupiers then as some sort of protectors. We wouldn’t have to do all the actual fighting otherwise.

What makes it egregious is none of the other race’s “rebel” groups are treated like this – we don’t drag the Inquest from their beds or murder the Sons of Svanir in that cave in Hoelbrak.

Neilos Tyrhanos.5427:

I did have a bit of a problem with the Norn quest in Wayfarer Foothills that has you raiding a Dredge mine and killing the workers. Not just the soldiers, the workers too— the ones who spawn unaggressive.

You don’t HAVE to kill those unaggressive Dredge workers though. I make it a point never to attack them unless they attack me first. Which often results in situations similar to the scene from Black Hawk Down where a US Marine has his gun trained on a woman running up the street and muttering to himself, “Don’t do it, lady…” And then she pulls out a gun from under her burqa and the soldier shoots her before she can fire. In my case, I’ve just killed a hostile Dredge Ratnik who attacked me first, and then I see a Dredge worker running over to the Ratnik’s corpse, and I mutter to myself, “Don’t do it, buddy… Don’t do it!” But the worker runs over anyway, picks up the Ratnik’s rifle, screams “FOR THE COLLECTIVE!” and attacks me, forcing me to cut him down too.

Dredge events are tough.

Why waste time asking people to stop being seperatists when you can kindly gently and most importantly politley gash in their skull with an axe?

the moidart.3612:

What makes it egregious is none of the other race’s “rebel” groups are treated like this – we don’t drag the Inquest from their beds or murder the Sons of Svanir in that cave in Hoelbrak.

That is not what happens in Ebonhawke either, so you can relax.

Bwahaha. Rebel scum. Disobeying the crown is treason!

Seriously, there are MMOs out there with little good-evil meters that let you go all the way into the red by doing horrible, horrible things to people who didn’t even look at you funny. Meanwhile in Guild Wars 2 if you want your character to stop spouting bleeding-heart platitudes in every other conversation, you’d have to hack the audio files and it’d probably get you suspended or banned. And yet Guild Wars 2 is wanting for moral rectitude?

I think someone’s been reading the Daily Mail too much.

Your response seems a bit extreme.

First, as many others have pointed out, the game in no way indicates that you’re dragging anyone out of their homes to execute them. In fact, the implication is that you knock on the door, and the separatists jump you. This is a far cry from your so-called Gestapo-style executions.

Second, importantly, your argument treats the separatists as mere political opposition. They are portrayed in the vast majority of the lore not as a legitimate political group but as a terrorist organization. Human characters are exposed to several missions in which separatists carry out kidnappings and attempt assassinations. The Caudecus’s Manor Story Mode dungeon sees seperatists nearly succeed to assassinate the Queen. It is strongly implied by NPCs at the “Great Collapse” site in Divinity’s Reach that the destruction of roughly 1/7 of the city’s landmass was a separatist act of terror. So from a lore standpoint, the player character is treated as a representative of the local law enforcement and/or military, and you’re not executing helpless political dissidents, you’re defending yourself against murderous members of a fifth column.

If I owned a farm, I’d expect the workers to actually work unless they were on a break. Thats what they get paid for. The player just helps seeing to that.

As for the separatists, they are the ones trying to ruin the peace between the humans and the charr. They are the ones attacking YOU. They are the ones all around ebonhawke attacking innocents, militia etc and in certain events taking over an entire part of ebonhawke. You knock on their door, they come out and try to kill you.. Yep, they are nothing but a terrorist organisation.

The separatists are a terrorist organisation, as simple as that. Any goverment with half a brain would try to stop them. They are doing far more than just “disagreeing with opinion”.

Also OP, you are reading too much into this.. Its also something that has been in books, movies, games since.. well.. forever so its not like its uncommon.

Because it is the real world leaking into fantasy in favor of the totalitarian/dictator.

The only leaking in from the real world on this subject are posts like yours to be honest.

You need to take the Blue pill.

Take a step back and look at the big picture. On surface level, nothing wrong with democracy. I am democratic first and foremost, which is why I vehemently oppose the Belgian royal house. On the other hand, the only reason Ebonhawke exists at all, is because of the Asura gate, which provides supplies by the queen.

Ebonhawke becoming independent would mean it’ll be run over by charr in minutes. So here you have to choose between the lesser of two evils; an enlighted despote, or charr. Queen Jenna doesn’t seem so bad, and she isn’t even queen of Ebonhawke, merely a Regent. Also, no where it’s claimed that separatists want to establish a republic, most likely they have a leader who’ll claim the crown.

@ Op while I didn’t have a problem with the separatists. on this map, I do have a problem with the mission that they give you because they feel threatened by trolls living nearby. You basically go in and kill ogres who are peacefully farming and caring for their pets.
They are doing nothing until you come rushing into their homes and then they rightfully defend it.
You kill everything.
In other areas of the game you assist ogres in creating a new kraal and they are very human like creatures.

This mission made me feel like a mass murderer- I detest the Fields of Ruin map because of it and nothing will get me to go back there ever.

OP, you have a point. I support you. I also think the Separatists have the right idea.
I wish I could point my gun at the charrs instead. Those subhumans responsible for bringing in the undead.

But I do think the human authorities are quite justified in dealing with the Separatists in this manner. I can think of several real life historical events that did this to preserve the stability of their nations in times of great crisis.

Some times a finger must be sacrificed to save the whole hand.

In GW1 we commit genocide of Elona when vanquishing it. There’s a reason we see no Kournans in GW2.

I really enjoy these conversations. The fact that a group of forums posters approached this political issue ingame with different viewpoints reflects the success of this storyline. Personally, I consider the Seperatists a major threat against the peace between Charr and Humans.

Yes I don’t know why some people are being so dismissive. Some people are more affected by things in a game than others, and that’s ok. Personally, I didn’t enjoy playing Empire/Dark Side in SWTOR because it made me uncomfortable. I didn’t ask for it to be removed, or anything, nor do I think people who enjoy playing a Sith or Imperial are bad or immoral; it’s just not for me. I don’t see why looking at the implications of quests, or thinking critically, means that there is something wrong with OP or s/he needs to ‘stop playing’ or ‘take the blue pill.’

Thinking: give it a try!

redknight.8036:

I wish I could point my gun at the charrs instead. Those subhumans responsible for bringing in the undead.

Fact check: A human is responsible for the ghosts of Ascalon. During the war between the two races, the human king used a power he wasn’t forced to use to basically kill everyone on both sides, and then he cursed his own people to forever hunt the Charrs.

the moidart.3612:

What makes it egregious is none of the other race’s “rebel” groups are treated like this – we don’t drag the Inquest from their beds or murder the Sons of Svanir in that cave in Hoelbrak.

Fact check: In one of the Norn storylines, you do in fact go into the cave in Hoelbrak to save-by-beating the wolf spirit creature that’s been corrupted by the Sons. As a result, the Sons attack you to try and stop you, and you must kill several of them in that cave.

Also I’d like to make a point here, as everyone is bringing up the option to Knock on a Door of a Sepratists Hideout….

There are other options, one of which is TALKING to the Sepratist, being diplomatic. And in doing so, you and the npc both will see where the npc’s rage is coming from, where the motivation stems from, but yet, they reconcile and repent due to your counseling.

I think this point is just as important, if not more, then the right or wrong of kicking in doors.

MrMacAndCheese.3907:

Also I’d like to make a point here, as everyone is bringing up the option to Knock on a Door of a Sepratists Hideout….

There are other options, one of which is TALKING to the Sepratist, being diplomatic. And in doing so, you and the npc both will see where the npc’s rage is coming from, where the motivation stems from, but yet, they reconcile and repent due to your counseling.

I think this point is just as important, if not more, then the right or wrong of kicking in doors.

This is the exact reason i love the way the hearts are done, if you dont like doing one thing there is always at elast 1 or 2 other ways you can do it

Dudeface.8102:

I could not believe that a game in this day and age would have me running around acting like the Gestapo of Nazi Germany.

Are you serious? This comparison is tasteless.

Agreed, Gummi. The option is given to be either Diplomatic, perform Censorship, or simply Eliminate the threat. It is the choice of every Human player how they handle this situation. The same choice is made by many governments all over the world every day.

MrMacAndCheese.3907:

Also I’d like to make a point here, as everyone is bringing up the option to Knock on a Door of a Sepratists Hideout….

There are other options, one of which is TALKING to the Sepratist, being diplomatic. And in doing so, you and the npc both will see where the npc’s rage is coming from, where the motivation stems from, but yet, they reconcile and repent due to your counseling.

I think this point is just as important, if not more, then the right or wrong of kicking in doors.

Indeed, I did the quest not knocking at any door, if I remember rightly.

Zaxares.5419:

Neilos Tyrhanos.5427:

I did have a bit of a problem with the Norn quest in Wayfarer Foothills that has you raiding a Dredge mine and killing the workers. Not just the soldiers, the workers too— the ones who spawn unaggressive.

You don’t HAVE to kill those unaggressive Dredge workers though. I make it a point never to attack them unless they attack me first. Which often results in situations similar to the scene from Black Hawk Down where a US Marine has his gun trained on a woman running up the street and muttering to himself, “Don’t do it, lady…” And then she pulls out a gun from under her burqa and the soldier shoots her before she can fire. In my case, I’ve just killed a hostile Dredge Ratnik who attacked me first, and then I see a Dredge worker running over to the Ratnik’s corpse, and I mutter to myself, “Don’t do it, buddy… Don’t do it!” But the worker runs over anyway, picks up the Ratnik’s rifle, screams “FOR THE COLLECTIVE!” and attacks me, forcing me to cut him down too.

Dredge events are tough.

If I recall correctly, there is one Heart to fill in one dredge cavern for a Dredge dissadent. He states that many of them are in fact slaves forced to work, and requests your aid in starting a rebellion.

I remember recently talking to a Human officer near Sorrow’s Embrace about the Dredge, and my character questions the aggression towards the Dredge. The officer says something to the effect that: The dredge were slaves (to the dwarves, I think?), but now that they are free, they have to fight for land, just like everyone else.

It was a cold remark that caught me off gaurd, and actually made me think for while, even as I had to fight them.

The Moletariat is indeed complex.

That dredge event was one of the highlights of the levelling experience for me. Finding out that the dredge had a social structure beyond “evil undergound race focused on mining” was very interesting.

So, far, I have only knocked on a few doors, most of the time I just tear down posters and talk to the NPCs supporting the separatist.

Actually, some already mentioned, the separatist actually attack you first after you knock on the door. If you don’t believe me or the others posters here, you can go do the quest yourself and knock on the door and see if the separatist will attack you first or not.

You could always look at it as a way to show your compassion for others. Yes you can knock on doors and when attacked destroy the other, or you could talk to people. Just because there is an option to appear heavy handed does not mean you yourself need to take that route. I personally have more sympathy for the ogres and dredge on several quests but that is just me.

I don’t feel bad when i kick a bunny in the game. I don’t feel bad when I oppress a separatist in game.

I would probably feel a little bad if they were real though…

My giant heroic (and none too bright) Norn mows down everything that crosses his path. Dragons, trolls, risen, ogres, bandits, pirates, human separatists, law-abiding citizens, hot dog vendors, hare krishna processions, doctors, nuns, quaggans, old ladies, the Pope, ponies, leprechauns, unicorns and the Queen of England. “Ohohoho!! Extra Damage!”

Except Moas. So cute and fluffy. He has a soft spot for those, apparently.

One of the underlying themes that I really like in GW2 is this:

Most sentient races have both good and evil representatives.

I’ve helped good Ogres, Ettins, Skritt, and I think even Dredge. Among all 5 playable races, there exists an opposing faction.

It’s not heavy handed, but my takeaway was that you should not assume that a particular race or species is hostile or evil just because of the circumstances of their birth.

Even among the animals, you have the tameable pets.

I also like that this example is not taken to ridiculous extremes – I have yet to encounter friendly harpies or destroyers or a devious quaggan.

Devious Quaggan…part of me wants to see this, even if it is just in an event chain. Dr. Evool……lol.

Rolled a Charr Necro, complains about human violence and evil.

Rustypipes.6238:

Rolled a Charr Necro, complains about human violence and evil.

Best post of the thread.

Levetty.1279:

Rustypipes.6238:

Rolled a Charr Necro, complains about human violence and evil.

Best post of the thread.

What, judging someone based on their race and job?

Laurelinde.4395:

Yes I don’t know why some people are being so dismissive.

People categorically stating “stop playing” and/or “take the blue pill” aren’t helpful, I agree, but many others have been “dismissive” by refuting the OP’s argument.

I still hold that the OP approached the whole scenario with faulty logic – separatists aren’t ever portrayed as civilian political dissidents, they’re consistently portrayed as criminals conducting terror attacks and attempting assassinations.

Additionally, if a player decided that the “suspicious door” route was morally questionable, he or she has plenty of other options for completing that renown heart.

Is that being dismissive? If so, then this needs to be dismissed.

Dudeface.8102:

There is a major exception to this fun however, and it happened when facing one of the main human enemies, called separatists. The separatists are a rowdy bunch generally opposed to peace and the human monarchy. The separatists constantly hatch plans to foil the human government and subvert the established authority.

I think you’re misunderstanding who the Separatists are – which is an understandable mistake because their name is rather misleading. It’s not simply a difference of political opinion; that would be Separatist sympathizers (whom you merely talk to,) not the Separatists themselves.

The Separatists are essentially a militia who act outside of government authority to commit acts of terrorism, murder, and sabotage in an attempt to prevent the end of a war that has claimed countless lives on both sides for centuries. Being “separate” by their standards means driving all the Charr off the land by the use of violent force.

They’re opposed to the human government only to the extent that Queen Jennah is trying to end the war; as far as I know they have no other major beef with the monarchy aside from not accepting the treaty or land-sharing arrangements.

We aren’t talking about ordinary nonviolent political anarchists here – we’re talking about an armed, aggressive group with a specific goal that would harm both species.

Also, regarding the “dragging them out of their homes” thing – try just knocking on the door and standing there. That’s what I did. They will become hostile and will attack you first.

This is hardly the worst excuse for a killing spree the game offers: You also murder Inquest Recruiters as a lowbie asura, and you fairly often get sent off to just indiscriminately slaughter Skritt on a variety of very thin pretexts.

But I don’t think you can easily frame the Separatists as libertarian rebels. They’re just vengeful xenophobes who won’t accept peace with the Charr – there’s nothing expecially freedom-loving about that.