Guild Wars 2

Again, the orders are not under the command of ANYBODY. if they were, the races wouldn’t assign you to work alongside the orders and figure a plan out. The queen/legions/council would just go “Eh, do that guys plan and be done with it!”

Again, you fail to provide REASONS why ALL the other races would instantly work with Kryta over this. For one I can factually prove your statement as false because the Norn wouldn’t care, Knut’s word is law only in Hoelbrek.

The legions likely wouldn’t get involved. Arcane council I see just sitting aside. Sylvari wouldn’t get involved. The orders wouldn’t join forces for reasons I already posts. OoW and vigil would be against it as it’s actively working to split allied forces that could be against the dragons (and OoW’s thing is getting everybody allied, in whatever means possibly). Priory would have the historical proof to show that LA is entirely legal. Hell, again, even IF Jennah went crazy and tried pulling that, the ministry would block it and work against it. They would never send the military forces needed to take the city as opposed to having those guys fighting the centaurs back.

Vigil was formed by a random group of people… OoW predates every active nation on the surface ATM (meaning they were active before Asura surfaced, and before iron legion became the ‘head’ of the charr). Priory was founded by a neutral historian as I recall.

NONE are forced to obey any nation. MANY of their recruits are also people from all walks of life, a number with no military training at all.

Again, Jennah’s proof basically would instantly be countered with “The Krytan crown itself said this city was independent, with two different kings thinking that no less. They are entirely Legal.”

What is the undeniable proof that “LA is occupied by a rogue cartel of pirates, and the entire setup is illegal” because I think I’ve proven they are entirely legal to the viewpoint of Kryta.

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

Thus when HRH Jennah the recognised leader of all humanity in Tyria shows undeniable proof that Kryta’s former capital and main port has been occupied by a rogue cartel of pirates – the Races of Tyria will mobilise and neutralise the criminals – without mercy – unless the Captain’s Council give their complete official surrender to the Crown of Kryta.

“We promised King Baede that we’de stick close to his gold. You won it from Moran fair and square, but that doesn’t release us from our promise.” – Grymm, Norn priory agent. Sea of Sorrows

Your logic doesn’t seem to match the different races of Tyria.

Also, the agreement is that Lion’s Arch is independent as long as the captain’s council is in charge.

If another group took over, then there would be a case. As it is… it’s entirely legal still.

Actually, there’s a big reason the Charr and Norn would actively defend Lion’s Arch against a Krytan invasion, particularly the Norn – “Hey, my brother’s a Lionguard!”

If HRH Jennah tried to move against Lion’s Arch, it’s highly possible that the other races may decide that she’s too bellicose and power-hungry (Because why else would she want to waste resources taking over a neutral city that she doesn’t own?) to trust with a long-term alliance (Because if she dismisses the treaty made with Lion’s Arch granting its independence when it no longer suits her, what’s to keep her from dismissing/ignoring her other treaties with the Charr and other races when they no longer suit her to right what she feels are past wrongs? After all, “legally”, she’s Queen of Ascalon).

The charr would probably respond with whatever support they can give to Lion’s Arch to defend it, and work out a treaty with the Asura to mitigate and marginalize humans loyal to HRH Jennah(And possibly replace their position in the order with humans that aren’t beholden to a crazed queen, such as centaurs, or the free men of Kryta and privateers of the Captain’s Council – referred to as Bandits and Pirates by Kryta, respectively), while also preparing for a more definitive and decisive war (Ebonhawke can either stand with the Charr and Asura and remain alive, or side with HRH, and find themselves besieged by the Charr and cut off from the outside world by the Asura.)

As for the Norn involvement in whether to support of oppose a Krytan takeover of Lion’s Arch – either they’ll side with their Charr drinking buddies, or their allegiance falls to whoever offers the best deal on booze – which will probably be Lion’s Arch.

Sartharina.3542:

As for the Norn involvement in whether to support of oppose a Krytan takeover of Lion’s Arch – either they’ll side with their Charr drinking buddies, or their allegiance falls to whoever offers the best deal on booze – which will probably be Lion’s Arch.

As amusing as it is, why does everyone portray the norn as being all about keggers and drunken loutishness? Or even as a unified force of any sort. What you’d get is more likely some norn standing for Lion’s Arch and a whole lot more going “meh, not my problem, I have a steading to run”.

Norn do not behave as a unified race. Notably, not even humans behave as a unified race. The only one which does for the most part is the sylvari and that’s because the Nightmare Court’s shenanigans don’t really affect their ability to act.

(Don’t say the asura, because they’re even less unified than the norn.)

While many of the races aren’t completely cohesive to the individual, there are notable racial tendancies that shine through in the societies.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Sartharina.3542:

As for the Norn involvement in whether to support of oppose a Krytan takeover of Lion’s Arch – either they’ll side with their Charr drinking buddies, or their allegiance falls to whoever offers the best deal on booze – which will probably be Lion’s Arch.

As amusing as it is, why does everyone portray the norn as being all about keggers and drunken loutishness? Or even as a unified force of any sort. What you’d get is more likely some norn standing for Lion’s Arch and a whole lot more going “meh, not my problem, I have a steading to run”.

Norn do not behave as a unified race. Notably, not even humans behave as a unified race. The only one which does for the most part is the sylvari and that’s because the Nightmare Court’s shenanigans don’t really affect their ability to act.

(Don’t say the asura, because they’re even less unified than the norn.)

Which is why Nic’s idea that the other races would embrace Kryta’s takeover of Lion’s Arch is even more laughable – the Asura and Norn groups dependent on LA’s free trade would find the disruption of the status quo to be unacceptable, and support the city in whatever ways they can to the extent that they would be affected by its loss of neutrality. Whether it’s from Norn choosing to side with their brothers/sisters/friends in the lionguard, steading owners with trade deals with Lion’s Arch keeping their lives wealthy and happy, and mercenaries answering to good pay and deals on booze, or Asura krewes being Asura within Lion’s Arch controlled territory not wanting to have to answer to Krytan laws, regulations, and ethics.

Hell, LA could count on norn support by putting forth a call to the norn wanderers, mercenary, adventurers, and hunters/glory seekers.

“Come fight for Lion’s Arch defense! We’ll pay you in gold and food/drink and we are expecting heavy, intense combat!” Even calling that out in Hoelbrek alone could get those seeking glory and fights in. It’s why numbers of norn join the vigil (and to a lesser extent, priory). Epic fights, grand adventures, glorious hunts.

Hell, once Kryta announces that, LA would shut down the DR gate. Meaning if Kryta wanted to bribe the asura into aiding them (or anybody else), they’d have to send convoys the long way. (or any envoys for that matter really, if there is a group + cargo they can’t effectively use waypoints as we’ve seen). And if LA quickly gets a message out to all the havens “Do not shelter Seraph, Shining blade, ministry guard, or any official Krytan groups or Krytan caravans of X size.”… Those trips just became very, very dangerous.

This text has been removed

So, I’ve been kinda dispassionate in following this thread (and with the thread in general). Are we simply entertaining another “what if Queen Jennah was crazy” scenario?

Because the reality is she’s a great person. The Queen’s Gauntlet thing that she’s doing now is entirely for the benefit of LA.

That’s not a power hungry ruler reaching for place she doesn’t control (but could easily claim now more than ever)…

But, the hallmark of a kind and benevolent leader who’s extending help to a people in need.

This might as well be “What if Einstein hated science and to spite us, made up fantastic models of the physical universe to throw us off?!”

CETheLucid.3964:

So, I’ve been kinda dispassionate in following this thread (and with the thread in general). Are we simply entertaining another “what if Queen Jennah was crazy” scenario?

Because the reality is she’s a great person. The Queen’s Gauntlet thing that she’s doing now is entirely for the benefit of LA.

That’s not a power hungry ruler reaching for place she doesn’t control (but could easily claim now more than ever)…

But, the hallmark of a kind and benevolent leader who’s extending help to a people in need.

This might as well be “What if Einstein hated science and to spite us, made up fantastic models of the physical universe to throw us off?!”

Pretty much this entire topic is based on the idea of Jennah (and/or the ministry) going completely insane and out of character.

But even then, they couldn’t take LA easily. They risk losing too much to centaur offenses during the redeployment of the seraph.

Why Ascalon? Why not focus in Orr?
Retaking it from the undead and rebuilding it into shape sounds more productive that going into full war agains the charr. Again.

Because even cleared of undead, the land requires long, intensive healing to support life and grow crops.

Clearing undead and the corruption is a good idea.

Kalavier.1097:

Pretty much this entire topic is based on the idea of Jennah (and/or the ministry) going completely insane and out of character.

Point taken.

If we can outlaw all Charrs that would be great, after that introduce housing so i can use them as my slaves.

After that its time to do the same to the Asura race and after that we light a fire in the Grove.

Humans Will Rule All of Tyria!

/Insanity off

I kind of find it funny how little grasp Nicholas S Lin has on the lore………

Celestina.2894:

I kind of find it funny how little grasp Nicholas S Lin has on the lore………

If it’s not a direct lack of understanding or grasping the lore in a situation…

It’s him not even thinking about the other races (as shown by his "Of course the other four nations would accept and support Kryta!… Norn have no nation) or how they’d react.

He’s very much human biased, which sucks when the people who are against humans, or are neutral can bring up direct human actions that prove his points wrong. IE, how two separate kings treated (or outright declared) LA to be independent, and he ignores that.

I’m all for what ifs. or looking at things from other angles… if you remain realistic to the setting.

Kalavier.1097:

Again, the orders are not under the command of ANYBODY. if they were, the races wouldn’t assign you to work alongside the orders and figure a plan out. The queen/legions/council would just go “Eh, do that guys plan and be done with it!”

Again, you fail to provide REASONS why ALL the other races would instantly work with Kryta over this. For one I can factually prove your statement as false because the Norn wouldn’t care, Knut’s word is law only in Hoelbrek.

The legions likely wouldn’t get involved. Arcane council I see just sitting aside. Sylvari wouldn’t get involved. The orders wouldn’t join forces for reasons I already posts. OoW and vigil would be against it as it’s actively working to split allied forces that could be against the dragons (and OoW’s thing is getting everybody allied, in whatever means possibly). Priory would have the historical proof to show that LA is entirely legal. Hell, again, even IF Jennah went crazy and tried pulling that, the ministry would block it and work against it. They would never send the military forces needed to take the city as opposed to having those guys fighting the centaurs back.

Vigil was formed by a random group of people… OoW predates every active nation on the surface ATM (meaning they were active before Asura surfaced, and before iron legion became the ‘head’ of the charr). Priory was founded by a neutral historian as I recall.

NONE are forced to obey any nation. MANY of their recruits are also people from all walks of life, a number with no military training at all.

Again, Jennah’s proof basically would instantly be countered with “The Krytan crown itself said this city was independent, with two different kings thinking that no less. They are entirely Legal.”

What is the undeniable proof that “LA is occupied by a rogue cartel of pirates, and the entire setup is illegal” because I think I’ve proven they are entirely legal to the viewpoint of Kryta.

The Orders of Tyria are only notionally indenpendant. That is to say that they may operate as they will on the approval of the five patron races. Your argument that the five races and the three orders would essential ignore any move by Humanity to reclaim Kryta’s former Capital that was stolen from them is without merit. You assume that the opinion of Tyria is that Lion’s Arch was legally independent and of the best interest of all to remain as such is without basis. Since you continue to ignore one of the main arguments against it being seen as legal by anyone in Tyria.

The Crown was forced to give its consent to the Pirate Cartel since at the time it simple did not have the resources to hold on to it due. NOT because of the normal operation and function of the Nation at the time. But because it was still recovering from being shattered and devastated by a massive tidal-wave.

If not for that event. There would have been NO opportunity for the cartel to take and hold it. Again it must be acknowledged that the only reason the cartel was able to field a military force of sufficient size to make an attack on it unjustifiable and doomed to likely failure is because of a singular fact. The gold from the sunken Krytan naval vessel “Salma’s Grace” financed the ablility of the cartel buy personnel and equipement of the best quality and in vast numbers. Without the “Salma’s Grace” gold the cartel would not have been able to hold the ruin city.

This set of events would ensure that HRH Jennah would have solid grounds to formally request aid on behalf of humanity to re-take Lion’s Arch for Kryta and Humanity. The annexation of Lion’s Arch would not be seen as against the interest of the other four races. Why would it?

On what grounds would the other races believe that they have shared claim of Lion’s Arch? It was a sovereign territory of Kryta. Since this is one of the central pillars to back the shared ownership of Lion’s Arch, what is the basis of this claim?

There is none – other than that is how the Lore has now been written. Despite there being no historical justification other than the Crown being force to give its consent due to the series of events as I have illustrated in detail in my previous posts – as it was written in GW2 Lore.

Further why would humanity led by HRH Queen Jennah have to wage a protracted campaign to re-claim Lion’s Arch for the Crown? With the requested aid from the Pact Treaty nations and the Orders of Tyria it would be over in a few days or even a few days.

Since once its been established that the Captain’s Council does not have the support of the Orders or the other Pact nations, they would be left with no choice but to surrender or die.

Where has it been established the Captain’s Council doesn’t have the support of the Orders or other Pact factions? They all have STRONG interest in maintaining Lion’s Arch as a free, independent city and neutral meeting/staging ground. It also holds LOTS of assets that would be threatened by such a move.

The point you don’t seem to get is that not only would the Pact and Treaty turn their backs to Divinity’s Reach if it tried to take over Lion’s Arch, but possibly its guns as well if it tried pushing the matter.

I guess it is possible that the end result of the interactions between Divinity’s Reach and Lion’s Arch and the Pact and Five-Race Treaty could result in Lion’s Arch again being the Capital of Kryta – As a Bandit/Pirate and Centaur confederacy, … with the entire nation being governed by the Captain’s Council, while the Charr, Asura, Norn, Vegetables, Vigil, Priory, and Whispers would treat the Royalists of Kryta the same way the High Legions treat the Flame Legion, the Sylvari of the Grove treat the Nightmare Court, the Ebon Vanguard treat the Separatists, the Norn treat the Sons of Svanir, and the Sentinels treat the Renegades.

It would also reduce Human racial influence from “One of the primary five races of Tyria” to “Some dudes who just happen to be hanging around… kinda like Quaggan” the bigger geopolitical players of a new five-race treaty between the Sylvari, Norn, Charr, Asura, and Centaurs.

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

The legions likely wouldn’t get involved. Arcane council I see just sitting aside. Sylvari wouldn’t get involved. The orders wouldn’t join forces for reasons I already posts. OoW and vigil would be against it as it’s actively working to split allied forces that could be against the dragons (and OoW’s thing is getting everybody allied, in whatever means possibly). Priory would have the historical proof to show that LA is entirely legal. Hell, again, even IF Jennah went crazy and tried pulling that, the ministry would block it and work against it. They would never send the military forces needed to take the city as opposed to having those guys fighting the centaurs back.

Turning Kryta against Lion’s Arch would be splitting alliances. The Legions and Arcane Council have interest in keeping Lion’s Arch a neutral, independent, racially-diverse trading hub.

The Crown was forced to give its consent to the Pirate Cartel since at the time it simple did not have the resources to hold on to it due. NOT because of the normal operation and function of the Nation at the time. But because it was still recovering from being shattered and devastated by a massive tidal-wave.

If not for that event. There would have been NO opportunity for the cartel to take and hold it. Again it must be acknowledged that the only reason the cartel was able to field a military force of sufficient size to make an attack on it unjustifiable and doomed to likely failure is because of a singular fact. The gold from the sunken Krytan naval vessel “Salma’s Grace” financed the ablility of the cartel buy personnel and equipement of the best quality and in vast numbers. Without the “Salma’s Grace” gold the cartel would not have been able to hold the ruin city.

It doesn’t matter HOW Lion’s Arch happened to become an independent, sovereign city state – all that matters is that it is one now. And it is. There are lots of things that could have happened to keep Lion’s Arch part of Kryta. But those didn’t happen. What did happen allowed the city to gain independence. It’s no more relevant that Lion’s Arch was swindled by a band of pirates than if it instead gained Neutrality by the King of Kryta going on a drunken bender on a trip to Divinity’s Reach, losing a few tax records, and then forgetting Lion’s Arch existed and labeled it a free city. Or everyone just saying that it’s a free city and the other political factions accepting that without Kryta knowing what just happened. Or a wild rabbit showing up out of nowhere, kicking everyone’s kittens, declaring itself emperor of Lion’s Arch, taking over the world, getting beaten back, dying, and leaving the city free. What happened, happened, and all that really matters is that the people who matter (The four other races, and Factions of the Pact) say Lion’s Arch is an independent city.

This set of events would ensure that HRH Jennah would have solid grounds to formally request aid on behalf of humanity to re-take Lion’s Arch for Kryta and Humanity. The annexation of Lion’s Arch would not be seen as against the interest of the other four races. Why would it?

On what grounds would the other races believe that they have shared claim of Lion’s Arch? It was a sovereign territory of Kryta. Since this is one of the central pillars to back the shared ownership of Lion’s Arch, what is the basis of this claim?

It was a sovereign territory of Kryta, but it’s not any more. It’s now a neutral, independent city-state that trades with and represents ALL the races of Tyria, from the short but brilliant metricans, to the rather green and leafy Caledonians, to the tall Shiverpeak Mountaineers, and rather fuzzy and horny Ascalonians.

There is none – other than that is how the Lore has now been written. Despite there being no historical justification other than the Crown being force to give its consent due to the series of events as I have illustrated in detail in my previous posts – as it was written in GW2 Lore.

History doesn’t need justification. It just happens. Deal with it.

I have a question, Kryta was originally a Elonan colony with little cultural ties to Ascalon, which fared badly after the events in GW1, and from what I understand about the lore Orr which seems to be vaguely Arabic judging by NPC names followed into disaster shortly.

While no doubt the refugees from both nations did have influence, I doubt Jenna who has enough on her plate (Dragons, Cadecus, Centaurs, and the fall out from Scarlet’s rampage) would be overly concerned about reclamation of a cursed ghost and branded infested territory from the Charr.

The Charr, whom have major influence in all the Orders of Tyria, are highly militarize, and who are also fighting the multitude of hostile forces facing Kryta.

Is ascalon really worth such problems?

We’ve kinda moved on from arguing about taking Ascalon to Kryta trying to take Lion’s Arch back instead.

May I also add that had the Crown known of the material fact that the pirate cartel was fund and armed primarily with stolen Krytan gold – depending on at which point this fact is uncovered – the consent of the Crown and its peace accord with the pirate cartel would have been torn-up or not have been agreed to.

Secondly the Lionguard would have moved to evacuate the surviving population of Lion’s Arch under the order of the Crown of Kryta as a direct result of its destruction. Thus the bulk of the Lionguard at that time would have moved with the Crown and have actively participated in the construction of Divinity’s Reach.

This task would solidify the Lionguard’s continual allegiance to the Crown and the people of Kryta since the new city was now the capital and the center of Krytan life and culture. They the Lionguard would not have stayed behind to guard over the site of a ruin port or its vicinity. Thus would not any contact with the pirate cartel independent of the wishes of the Crown of Kryta.

On the subject of the position of the Pact nations and its member Orders. Why would they support a rogue organisation that entered into an agreement it was not entitled to? Seriously!

The monies that they transact on was not theirs. Thus have no means to complete their contractual obligations – to protect the interest of Lion’s Arch on behalf of the Crown. That contract was also an agreement to purchase Lion’s Arch from the Crown. Both agreements now made null and void as a result of the overwhelming amount of stolen funds – that was not known of by the Crown at the time of signing.

We know that the Crown did not know of the final fate “Salma’s Grace” funds since if they had known the peace accord would ever have been drawn up – and definitely not written into Law. Thus I ask again. On what grounds would the Pact nations and the Orders of Tyria support/uphold the sovereignty of Lion’s Arch as a “Free City”?

I put to you that they as a group would find no grounds to support any claim of the Captain’s Council. As such all treaties and contracts made with Lion’s Arch become immediately worthless.

Would’ve, could’ve, should’ve. Doesn’t matter. Lion’s Arch is an independent city-state. The ship “Salma’s Grace” was lost, then later salvaged. The money they had was theirs, by evidence of them having it. How they acquired it is irrelevant, especially since it was in bullion and actual-value material, instead of a placement. It stopped being Crown Wealth as soon as the ship went down – if the Crown really wanted it back, it would have gone and gotten it itself. If the wealth on the Salma’s Grace truly belonged to the Crown, it would have been with the Crown, not in the hands of the pirates. It doesn’t matter how the pirates got it, they were the ones who had it, and thus it’s theirs to do with as they please.

The lionguard could have done that, or not, but ultimately the Lionguard was removed from Krytan Allegiance and handed over to the control of the Captain’s Council. Any Lionguard that wanted to continue to serve the crown were free to swap from Lionguard to Seraph, with the change in the duties. Even had that not happened, the Krytans could have renamed and re-established the Lionguard as the Seraph, while the Captain’s Council took the Lionguard name for the guardians of its city, and there’s all of jack nada the Crown could have done about it.

As for the Pact and Orders – they’d support a rogue organization that entered into an agreement it wasn’t “Entitled” to because it’s in their best interest to support the free port city capable of holding and handling the assets of the orders without the risk of racially-motivated discriminatory policies.

The grounds as a group the would uphold/support the Sovereignty of Lion’s Arch as a “Free City” because it is a Free, Sovereign City, and one they have significant investment in. kittening about what could’ve, should’ve, would’ve happened in the past won’t change the present.

Sartharina.3542:

We’ve kinda moved on from arguing about taking Ascalon to Kryta trying to take Lion’s Arch back instead.

Thank you for making this point. However the ownership of Lion’s Arch would have a material impact on the ability of the Crown and thus humanity capability to enlarge and solidify the Ebonhawke Territory. Since it is known that at this time the hinterlands of the fortified city state is still very much corrupted by the Dragonbrand and its minions.

As to what options HRH Queen Jennah there is not sufficient information of the actual and potential facts of the region. Since may I suggest the main reason being is that Arenanet does not wish for humanity to gain any additional advantage that would significantly add to its overall strength in Tyria.

For if humanity were allowed to stablise the Ebonhawke hinterlands that would materially strengthen humanity since this would allow the fortified city to become relatively self-sufficient. An Ebonhawke that is effectively self-sufficient would free-up massive amounts of Krytan funds and resources – with obvious ramifications for the strength of Humanity as a whole in Tyria.

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

For if humanity were allowed to stablise the Ebonhawke hinterlands that would materially strengthen humanity since this would allow the fortified city to become relatively self-sufficient. An Ebonhawke that is effectively self-sufficient would free-up massive amounts of Krytan funds and resources – with obvious ramifications for the strength of Humanity as a whole in Tyria.

This is a very good point, and it should be recognized. And under the peace treaty with the charr, it is also likely it could be stabilized, colonized outside of the walls and allowed to start becoming self-sufficient.

Starting a war to try to hold that territory is, however, a losing proposition. Kryta can’t spare it, the ministers won’t allow it (for varying reasons), and the charr currently have too much opposition they could bring to bear to keep it from being secure.

On the other hand, if humanity were to take a third option and, oh, start expanding west instead . . .

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

The Orders of Tyria are only notionally indenpendant. That is to say that they may operate as they will on the approval of the five patron races. Your argument that the five races and the three orders would essential ignore any move by Humanity to reclaim Kryta’s former Capital that was stolen from them is without merit. You assume that the opinion of Tyria is that Lion’s Arch was legally independent and of the best interest of all to remain as such is without basis. Since you continue to ignore one of the main arguments against it being seen as legal by anyone in Tyria.

The order of whispers was active before ANY current major above ground government was formed. They don’t need the approval of any race. Priory is neutral and scholars, they aren’t tied to any race. Vigil is explicitly a multi-race military focused on fighting the dragons. They aren’t tied to any nation. Now all three orders have good relationships with the various nations (and the Norn. because norn do NOT have a nation at all), but they aren’t tied into any.

The Crown was forced to give its consent to the Pirate Cartel since at the time it simple did not have the resources to hold on to it due. NOT because of the normal operation and function of the Nation at the time. But because it was still recovering from being shattered and devastated by a massive tidal-wave.

If not for that event. There would have been NO opportunity for the cartel to take and hold it. Again it must be acknowledged that the only reason the cartel was able to field a military force of sufficient size to make an attack on it unjustifiable and doomed to likely failure is because of a singular fact. The gold from the sunken Krytan naval vessel “Salma’s Grace” financed the ablility of the cartel buy personnel and equipement of the best quality and in vast numbers. Without the “Salma’s Grace” gold the cartel would not have been able to hold the ruin city.

Actually, false. King Baede allowed it to be neutral because of Kryta’s weakened state, but Edair actually used a large ground AND Naval force to blockade the city to force it to surrender. Risen attacked and Kryta and LA joined forces, and afterwards Edair allowed the city to be independant as long as the Captain’s council was in power. So your whole basis of “It was forced to because it couldn’t retake the city!” is false. Edair, successor to Baede chose to allow them freedom when he could’ve taken the city by force.

This set of events would ensure that HRH Jennah would have solid grounds to formally request aid on behalf of humanity to re-take Lion’s Arch for Kryta and Humanity. The annexation of Lion’s Arch would not be seen as against the interest of the other four races. Why would it?

On what grounds would the other races believe that they have shared claim of Lion’s Arch? It was a sovereign territory of Kryta. Since this is one of the central pillars to back the shared ownership of Lion’s Arch, what is the basis of this claim?

There is none – other than that is how the Lore has now been written. Despite there being no historical justification other than the Crown being force to give its consent due to the series of events as I have illustrated in detail in my previous posts – as it was written in GW2 Lore.

Asura would never help as they’d basically be given two options.

A: Shut off DR-LA gate, lose a small chunk of gate profits.
B: Aid DR, making LA shut off ALL the gates, losing ALL gate profits.

Other races would have different reasons for it as well. Sylvari simply wouldn’t get involved. Charr likely would remain neutral at best. Norn have no nation, Knut’s word is law in Hoelbrek alone.

The orders would never support it as they ALL believe in unity and coming together to fight the dragons. This action is only splintering alliances. The PACT is focused on the dragons, and makes up only a section of the overall orders.

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

May I also add that had the Crown known of the material fact that the pirate cartel was fund and armed primarily with stolen Krytan gold – depending on at which point this fact is uncovered – the consent of the Crown and its peace accord with the pirate cartel would have been torn-up or not have been agreed to.

Secondly the Lionguard would have moved to evacuate the surviving population of Lion’s Arch under the order of the Crown of Kryta as a direct result of its destruction. Thus the bulk of the Lionguard at that time would have moved with the Crown and have actively participated in the construction of Divinity’s Reach.

This task would solidify the Lionguard’s continual allegiance to the Crown and the people of Kryta since the new city was now the capital and the center of Krytan life and culture. They the Lionguard would not have stayed behind to guard over the site of a ruin port or its vicinity. Thus would not any contact with the pirate cartel independent of the wishes of the Crown of Kryta.

On the subject of the position of the Pact nations and its member Orders. Why would they support a rogue organisation that entered into an agreement it was not entitled to? Seriously!

The monies that they transact on was not theirs. Thus have no means to complete their contractual obligations – to protect the interest of Lion’s Arch on behalf of the Crown. That contract was also an agreement to purchase Lion’s Arch from the Crown. Both agreements now made null and void as a result of the overwhelming amount of stolen funds – that was not known of by the Crown at the time of signing.

Thus I ask again. On what grounds would the Pact nations and the Orders of Tyria support/uphold the sovereignty of Lion’s Arch as a “Free City”?

I put to you that they as a group would find no grounds to support any claim of the Captain’s Council. As such all treaties and contracts made with Lion’s Arch become immediately worthless.

Yes, that may have changed thing…. back then. Either way, Edair was in a spot to take the city by force, and he agreed to grant it independence. Points go to our side.

Likely those lionguard joined the Seraph, as the survivors that fled where Kryta aligned. however when LA ruins became a haven for ships, and then rebuilt, they reformed the Lionguard to be defenders. Likely any former lionguard joined the Seraph or retired after LA was destroyed. I doubt many of the original lionguard stayed with the captain’s council.

There are no “Pact nations” the Pact is an alliance/formation of the three ORDERS. Not nations.

There was no purchasing LA from Kryta. Edair allowed it freedom after the great Krytan blockade.

Given the fact a kittening king of Kryta granted the city freedom after the Great Krytan blockade, and seeing the threat of Orr? That’s enough reason. Even if they weren’t “allowed” to hold LA despite the fact their power there is completely legal and from the crown of Kryta no less, they could just take all the people, and simply sail to another spot of the cost and build another city.

This is the problem, you keep claiming that everything LA has done is illegal and the treaties worthless, yet you cannot back them with actual lore knowledge. You state the other races would accept evidence of such, but don’t even show it here. Meanwhile we have explicit proof of a king of Kryta having the ability to take back the city (Which is contrary to your statement of it being allowed freedom only because Kryta was recovering), and granted them freedom.

I can only shake my head at how anti-human some of the opinions posted here are, and how the one person taking sides with humanity gets fired at.

Should Kryta decide to move against LA no one will raise a finger to help. The orders helped defend LA against Zhaitan, because that is their job, fighting Elder Dragons. People who say that the Pact is only a part of the orders are wrong, at least during the campaign against Zhaitan the Pact was the concentrated might of the three orders together. The Pact did not help defend LA against Scarlet, it won’t get involved in politics. The orders offered some help to retake LA from Scarlet, but it was adventurers who did the work.

The Charr will not risk peace talks with humanity for something that is none of their business. They retook Ascalon because they saw it as theirs, it seems to me like the Charr would rather be sympathetic to any attempt of Kryta to gain control over LA because they’d understand that Kryta would see LA as their territory.

The Asura would not necessarily shut down any gate if no one tried to use them for military actions, and given that LA as a trade center would not be affected. A takeover of LA must not mean that anything has to change concerning trade, look at the return of Hongkong to China. And a takeover must not necessarily be by brute force.

How many people did the Norn send to fight the Great Destroyer? Was it three, or four? The Norn are not unified, they are a large group of individualists and do not act as a nation.

The Sylvari are peaceful, they fight Elder Dragons because they have to. They do not willingly get involved in a conflict that does not concern them.

The idea that everyone would band together the moment Kryta attempted to takeover LA is nothing i can take seriously. An attempt to takeover LA must not be by military force, mind you. And as i said before, treaties get terminated and broken all the time, and the captain’s council is standing on insecure ground when it comes to its legitimacy. They are former pirates after all.

And where does it say that Kryta would eliminate the captain’s council at all? Take over LA, leave the council in place as vassals of the Krytan monarchy. LA is currently vulnerable like never before. How many leaders in our real world would miss the opportunity to gain control over it?

Time to deconstruct the points here.

Frosch.7809:

Should Kryta decide to move against LA no one will raise a finger to help. The orders helped defend LA against Zhaitan, because that is their job, fighting Elder Dragons. People who say that the Pact is only a part of the orders are wrong, at least during the campaign against Zhaitan the Pact was the concentrated might of the three orders together. The Pact did not help defend LA against Scarlet, it won’t get involved in politics. The orders offered some help to retake LA from Scarlet, but it was adventurers who did the work.

The Pact is not made of parts of each order, the orders are each a part of the Pact with independent aims and goals which do not always align. For what we know, the Pact operates as the Pact when it is against Elder Dragons and the orders operate independently when it involves something else.

Also, there was assistance at least from the Order of Whispers evacuating civilians during the first phase of the battle in Lion’s Arch. And the Priory was helping research Scarlet’s devices/creations.

The Charr will not risk peace talks with humanity for something that is none of their business. They retook Ascalon because they saw it as theirs, it seems to me like the Charr would rather be sympathetic to any attempt of Kryta to gain control over LA because they’d understand that Kryta would see LA as their territory.

Or they’d see it as their business as the trade through the asura gates might be then controlled by human hands as opposed to mostly-neutral hands.

The Asura would not necessarily shut down any gate if no one tried to use them for military actions, and given that LA as a trade center would not be affected. A takeover of LA must not mean that anything has to change concerning trade, look at the return of Hongkong to China. And a takeover must not necessarily be by brute force.

True, the Ash Legion did try a takeover in the past . . .

How many people did the Norn send to fight the Great Destroyer? Was it three, or four? The Norn are not unified, they are a large group of individualists and do not act as a nation.

Interesting how this gets lost in the shuffle even now. Norn don’t organize for anything short of something which threatens them all. Like Jormag.

The idea that everyone would band together the moment Kryta attempted to takeover LA is nothing i can take seriously. An attempt to takeover LA must not be by military force, mind you. And as i said before, treaties get terminated and broken all the time, and the captain’s council is standing on insecure ground when it comes to its legitimacy. They are former pirates after all.

And where does it say that Kryta would eliminate the captain’s council at all? Take over LA, leave the council in place as vassals of the Krytan monarchy. LA is currently vulnerable like never before. How many leaders in our real world would miss the opportunity to gain control over it?

I suspect, strongly, if any authority tried to be put over LA . . . even in the case of “you can have the city still, but now Kryta rules you” it’d be met with a laugh and “yeah, sure, whatever”.

Frosch.7809:

I can only shake my head at how anti-human some of the opinions posted here are, and how the one person taking sides with humanity gets fired at.

Most are not anti-human. Most are simply being realistic toward the entire world view. The one person taking side with humanity, as you say, it also the one guy who is ignoring or twisting the lore to treat it as if humanity should be the top power. Going so far as to basically say if Jennah wanted to conquer LA, not a single person would raise objections to it, including the “Norn nation.”

Should Kryta decide to move against LA no one will raise a finger to help.People who say that the Pact is only a part of the orders are wrong, at least during the campaign against Zhaitan the Pact was the concentrated might of the three orders together.

The pact IS part of the orders working together. Note it’s not the leaders of the pact working with Trahearne, but liasions. The leaders of the orders remain at their bases near Lion’s arch, directing day to day business at home while their chosen reps help Trahearne lead the Pact. Soulkeeper is leading the vigil “at home” in the sense, while Trahearne leads some vigil forces over near Orr. Like how we saw the orders get involved in various LS stuff, but not the Pact. Or tower of nightmares where a Vigil guy goes “We are likely going to go after her… she’s becoming too big a threat. You?” and the Order of whispers guy (or it’s the reverse order. I forget) basically replies with “Yeah, the order of whispers (or vigil if reversed) is thinking on that too. We might do a joint operations.”

The Charr will not risk peace talks with humanity for something that is none of their business. They retook Ascalon because they saw it as theirs, it seems to me like the Charr would rather be sympathetic to any attempt of Kryta to gain control over LA because they’d understand that Kryta would see LA as their territory.

Or they wouldn’t care period. Or they’d start being wary of Kryta thinking to retake Ascalon by force after taking Lion’s Arch.

The Asura would not necessarily shut down any gate if no one tried to use them for military actions, and given that LA as a trade center would not be affected. A takeover of LA must not mean that anything has to change concerning trade, look at the return of Hongkong to China. And a takeover must not necessarily be by brute force.

If Kryta moved against LA in a hostile way, I doubt LA would keep the gate to DR open. If the Asura sided with Kryta, I doubt LA would keep ANY of the gates open. Baede never tried to take LA because he thought that to take the city, you’d have to slaughter it’s defenders, and most of the civilian population before it’d surrender.

How many people did the Norn send to fight the Great Destroyer? Was it three, or four? The Norn are not unified, they are a large group of individualists and do not act as a nation.

Exactly what we’ve been saying. However Nich S seems to treat the Norn as if they have a nation. And it was 5.

The Sylvari are peaceful, they fight Elder Dragons because they have to. They do not willingly get involved in a conflict that does not concern them.

Exactly.

The idea that everyone would band together the moment Kryta attempted to takeover LA is nothing i can take seriously. An attempt to takeover LA must not be by military force, mind you. And as i said before, treaties get terminated and broken all the time, and the captain’s council is standing on insecure ground when it comes to its legitimacy. They are former pirates after all.

They are standing on very solid ground, given how they literally were told by a king of Kryta 70 years ago that they are independent from Kryta. The Crown itself gave them freedom. Also, most people aren’t trying to say everybody would instantly jump to defend LA, but that most wouldn’t jump to act AGAINST LA. Nich is saying everybody would instantly agree with Kryta and aid them, which is much, much sillier.

And where does it say that Kryta would eliminate the captain’s council at all? Take over LA, leave the council in place as vassals of the Krytan monarchy. LA is currently vulnerable like never before. How many leaders in our real world would miss the opportunity to gain control over it?

Because the Crown gave them freedom as long as the captain’s council is in power. Taking over the city basically says that agreement is broken and the Crown’s word isn’t as trustworthy. Also the fact LA wouldn’t submit to the crown as thought by King Baede, who figured to take the city back for Kryta would have to involve slaughtering most of the civilian population before they’d even think about surrendering.

“Due to the recent destruction of Lion’s Arch the Crown of Kryta feels enforced to ensure that the city gets the protection it needs from this moment onward. It is to our great regret that we have to see the captain’s council as being inefficient in giving the city this protection. To ensure that Lion’s Arch gets rebuilt and that trade will once again flow unhindered through this important trade center the crown of Kryta feels compelled to station troops in Lion’s Arch. Under the protection of Kryta Lion’s Arch will remain a free and neutral port and the interests of other nations are not affected”.

There, a pretext to take over Lion’s Arch. One can come up with different excuses and explanations why it is “necessary”. It does not only go for Kryta, but for other nations too. I think that the Charr would be the most likely candidate to try to pull off something like this by the way. A military force of adequate size could occupy the pile of rubble that LA currently is without the Lionguard being able to put up much resistance. Scarlet did it, now even less forces would be needed. I do not think that it is all too unlikely that another nation would try, if not for the “we are all friends” attitude of the game.

Scarlet took the city ONLY because she FORCED much of the defense and population to run like hell shortly after opening her attack with a bombardment.

If the Miasma hadn’t been used at all, it would’ve been fierce fighting and much shorter then the battle already was. Once the Miasma cleared it was over within a day to maybe 2 days.

Kalavier.1097:

Scarlet took the city ONLY because she FORCED much of the defense and population to run like hell shortly after opening her attack with a bombardment.

If the Miasma hadn’t been used at all, it would’ve been fierce fighting and much shorter then the battle already was. Once the Miasma cleared it was over within a day to maybe 2 days.

Yes, but now people are talking about the ruined city which is here now, which is much harder to hold.

. . . I still think it would be an incredibly bad idea for any of the races to try to annex Lion’s Arch. If anyone should decide to take it over, it’d be the Pact.

I would drink the blood of a thousand young.

Because, Human superiority.
For Adelbern!

Advent.6193:

Why would I want a dessicated wasteland? Thanks, Adelbern. The Searing may not have the nicest or most logical thing to do, but the Foefire smacks of a total “Scorched Earth” policy.

Traitor scum.
I bet your grandaddy ran and hid like a Sylvari swampweed-smoking hippie!
For Aderlbern! (Because kitten Rurick)

Kalavier.1097:

This is the problem, you keep claiming that everything LA has done is illegal and the treaties worthless, yet you cannot back them with actual lore knowledge. You state the other races would accept evidence of such, but don’t even show it here. Meanwhile we have explicit proof of a king of Kryta having the ability to take back the city (Which is contrary to your statement of it being allowed freedom only because Kryta was recovering), and granted them freedom.

Kalavier you have failed do disprove my argument. And you ignore all the proof I have detailed in my previous posts. You and those that side with you are equally blind to one central fact.

And that is that GW/GW2 Lore is written with only sufficient depth to explain the direction of the story with just enough details – so that it can be reviewed/revised at a future date.

So IF ONE such as I were to disagree at best (as I have on numerous occasions) I can only point to events in question and fill in the details base on the cause and effect of what should have happen base on the limited amount of facts given.

Obviously I will NOT be able to find any lengthy passage in Lore that would completely/essentially comfirm my view of what soon happen – since I’m DISAGREEING with the logic the direction the Lore.

The Lore is written on the assumption that most/all would agree with its progression and so makes only minimal effort to explain its movement/motivations forward.

Of course you and your peers will make circular argument(s) to disagree with this post like with most of my previous statements of opinion.

I think most of the issue with your posts is what happens when what you fill in directly conflicts with the lore and similar events that have taken place in RL.

So on one hand you say ’this is lore", when it is not. Then you say that it should be the lore because it is the logical course of events when RL history often disagrees with you.

Aside from which, you say there is “just enough details”. But with so few details you come to one and only one conclusion that you say could possibly happen. Out of all the infinite possibilities to could happen, you say only one is possible. It makes no sense.

But of course you will disagree with this post because of your flawed logic. Seewhatididthar?

Nich, you’ve yet to acknowledge the fact that tyhe KRytan Crown had a chance to retake LA by force.. and they in the end granted it freedom.

You keep ranting about how the ONLY REASON LA is free is because at the time the Crown couldn’t reconquer it with force or otherwise due to being weakened, but that’s only true somewhat for Baede, not his successor.

Kalavier.1097:

Nich, you’ve yet to acknowledge the fact that tyhe KRytan Crown had a chance to retake LA by force.. and they in the end granted it freedom.

You keep ranting about how the ONLY REASON LA is free is because at the time the Crown couldn’t reconquer it with force or otherwise due to being weakened, but that’s only true somewhat for Baede, not his successor.

And not his predecessor either.

Qho cares!? kitten that kitten Jennah, the only people fit to rule Humanity are Ascalonians.
Krytans were ALWAYS the frowned upon race of humans on Tyria. Orrians are cool tho.

But seriously, Ascalon4lyfe.

PS. LA is filthy pirate scum. They run Gemstore through BLTC, they are the kittens responsible for tonicizing townclothes.

Great, now we have racist Ascalonians who hate Krytans too.

Zaxares.5419:

Great, now we have racist Ascalonians who hate Krytans too.

Look, all I say is if we never let the asura out of their hole in the ground we wouldn’t have this problem.

Kalavier.1097:

Nich, you’ve yet to acknowledge the fact that tyhe KRytan Crown had a chance to retake LA by force.. and they in the end granted it freedom.

You keep ranting about how the ONLY REASON LA is free is because at the time the Crown couldn’t reconquer it with force or otherwise due to being weakened, but that’s only true somewhat for Baede, not his successor.

You haven’t worked it out yet have you? The real reason why none of the holders of the Krytan Crown were allowed to work towards/and or retake Lion’s Arch is because Arenanet want to ensure that they are completely unable to seriously rival the Charr in military might. That is truth undeniable.

Since its clear that it would only be a matter of time before the Crown would have been alerted of the true source of the wealth of the pirate cartel from Shining Blade/Order of Whispers operatives. And this would likely have occurred well before HRH Jennah was born.

You know what the scary part is? Considering that Evon Gnashblade owns the BLTC and earns possibly thousands of gold a day from his fees, PLUS the possibility that he might be a secret spy for the Ash Legion operating in Lion’s Arch… Nicholas might actually be on to something.

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

Kalavier.1097:

Nich, you’ve yet to acknowledge the fact that tyhe KRytan Crown had a chance to retake LA by force.. and they in the end granted it freedom.

You keep ranting about how the ONLY REASON LA is free is because at the time the Crown couldn’t reconquer it with force or otherwise due to being weakened, but that’s only true somewhat for Baede, not his successor.

You haven’t worked it out yet have you? The real reason why none of the holders of the Krytan Crown were allowed to work towards/and or retake Lion’s Arch is because Arenanet want to ensure that they are completely unable to seriously rival the Charr in military might. That is truth undeniable.

Since its clear that it would only be a matter of time before the Crown would have been alerted of the true source of the wealth of the pirate cartel from Shining Blade/Order of Whispers operatives. And this would likely have occurred well before HRH Jennah was born.

Why would the OoW tell the crown where the gold came from? BTW, the reason the Asura gates shut off during the great Krytan blockade was because Edair negotiated with the Arcane Council, and they held a grudge at that moment because the LA gates were basically funded by gold stolen from them.

Nich, I can’t take you seriously when you literally reply about the evidence supporting the side opposite of you with “WELL IT DON’T COUNT. CAUSE ANET WANTED STORY TO GO THAT WAY SO THAT’S WHY. OTHERWISE IT WOULDN’T GO THAT WAY CAUSE REASONS!”

Obviously exaggerating the tone/volume, but that’s the message you are giving. Guess what? When an author wants a story to go a certain way, they introduce things to make it happen. Anet, I’m pretty sure, wanted to have a neutral city where all the races interacted and mingled, and that’s why LA is the way it is, NOT some evil scheme to weaken humanity.

Zaxares.5419:

You know what the scary part is? Considering that Evon Gnashblade owns the BLTC and earns possibly thousands of gold a day from his fees, PLUS the possibility that he might be a secret spy for the Ash Legion operating in Lion’s Arch… Nicholas might actually be on to something.

It’s what you get for trusting a Charr.
Only Charr I ever trusted was this guy called Pyre.

Omar Aschi Popp.7496:

Zaxares.5419:

You know what the scary part is? Considering that Evon Gnashblade owns the BLTC and earns possibly thousands of gold a day from his fees, PLUS the possibility that he might be a secret spy for the Ash Legion operating in Lion’s Arch… Nicholas might actually be on to something.

It’s what you get for trusting a Charr.
Only Charr I ever trusted was this guy called Pyre.

I didn’t trust him. I followed him but I didn’t trust him.

I think he’d understand the distinction.

My characters would have challenged Pyre to a duel to the death once the Great Destroyer was dealt with.