Guild Wars 2

Kalavier.1097:

When an author wants a story to go a certain way, they introduce things to make it happen. Anet, I’m pretty sure, wanted to have a neutral city where all the races interacted and mingled, and that’s why LA is the way it is, NOT some evil scheme to weaken humanity.

And the reason LA was so successful was due to it’s independence from Kryta. Due to all the work that all the races contributed to LA’s success. And due to the fact that other races invested in LA’s success because they were assured of their safety due to LA’s independence. Kryta conquering it wouldn’t have made them “powerful enough to rival the charr”. Especially since we see how things were when LA was the capitol city of the kingdom.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Omar Aschi Popp.7496:

Zaxares.5419:

You know what the scary part is? Considering that Evon Gnashblade owns the BLTC and earns possibly thousands of gold a day from his fees, PLUS the possibility that he might be a secret spy for the Ash Legion operating in Lion’s Arch… Nicholas might actually be on to something.

It’s what you get for trusting a Charr.
Only Charr I ever trusted was this guy called Pyre.

I didn’t trust him. I followed him but I didn’t trust him.

I think he’d understand the distinction.

Same deal. But after a while, especially after liberating the charr from the destroyer ‘gods’, I think it was safe to trust him. Relatively.

He pretty much needed to pal around with us at that point. At least for a while.

Zaxares.5419:

My characters would have challenged Pyre to a duel to the death once the Great Destroyer was dealt with.

Well, that’s mean. Even after everything was said and done?

“When the time comes that our people must meet each other on the field of battle, I will not aim at you.”

Obviously, that reality never came to pass. During the war, we didn’t meet each other again. At least as far as I know.

Pyre lived to become a legend among his people, and my PC avoided the Foefire up in Ebonhawke.

Woohoo!

PS Evon’s totally a bro. Seriously.

The accusations are unfounded, he killed his legionnaire for you to prevent what’s being suggested (a charr mafia rule). He’s a good person.

You can trust him as much as you can trust any merchant, anyway. He’s not going to murder you in your sleep. It’s bad for business.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/short-story-evon-gnashblade-disembarks/

And having a SINGLE city more wouldn’t make them a military equal to the charr….

CETheLucid.3964:

Zaxares.5419:

My characters would have challenged Pyre to a duel to the death once the Great Destroyer was dealt with.

Well, that’s mean. Even after everything was said and done?

Yes, I would. Pyre is a cruel, self-serving Charr who was only our ally because of circumstances. He even admits that he only honored the bargain with the PC because he could see that our group was too powerful for him and his warband to defeat, and because we would be more useful as allies against the Flame Legion. If we had been the weaker party, or we had no more use to him, like the captured Flame Legion shaman he killed after interrogating him, things probably would have turned out very differently.

Not to mention he also planted the seeds of the revolution against the shamans, then immediately fled Ascalon so he couldn’t be hunted down by them. He didn’t even have the courage to see it through to the end.

But I respect him, in a fashion, which is why I’ll give him the opportunity to die gloriously and honorably in single combat rather than just overwhelm him with my other Heroes+henchies, or just have my Assassin kill him in his sleep.

He didn’t flee ascalon. He simply didn’t take a lead role in the revolution and instead stayed in the background.

He started it, but didn’t become the hero of it/the face of it.

Zaxares.5419:

Yes, I would. Pyre is a cruel, self-serving Charr who was only our ally because of circumstances.

Pyre was a prisoner marked for execution because of his apostasy and if we didn’t crash the Flame Legion party, he’d be dead.

Moreover after the fact, if we didn’t stop Gwen from torturing him to death in his cell, he’d also be dead.

Not to mention every other scene he’s Gwen’s punching bag. I fail to see the cruelness exhibited when he’s the first one willing to lay aside his differences to deal with us.

Self-serving? Eh, in the interests of saving his life and warband, sure, I guess. You’d do the same thing given you had a chip to barter with.

If he didn’t have anything for us, you think the PC or Gwen is going to give two kittens about some random charr? Gwen would have killed him.

Zaxares.5419:

He even admits that he only honored the bargain with the PC because he could see that our group was too powerful for him and his warband to defeat

Don’t remember that. It’s been a while, I’ll need a source.

If you’re talking about when he shrugs off the compliment the PC gives him that charr have honor, he’s saying he does what he has to do. Honor be kittened.

When we first take Doomlore Shrine, he has several members of his warband hidden.

If he had wanted to kill us, it would have been a simple thing to do. We’d never see it coming. Our PC admits this moment when Pyre tells them to come out.

Zaxares.5419:

If we had been the weaker party, or we had no more use to him, like the captured Flame Legion shaman he killed after interrogating him, things probably would have turned out very differently.

If we had been the weaker party, we never would have saved Pyre to begin with. You forget that he was a prisoner.

Earlier, Pyre was the one bargaining from a position of weakness with regards to the PC.

In that scene you’re talking about, he’s dealing with a Flame Legion shaman. Two very different situations. Context is everything. Pyre could suffer to deal with humans.

Pyre won’t suffer to deal with the Flame Legion, especially not some snot shaman who has the gall to call what he’s doing petty vengeance given what the Flame Legion has done and plans to do.

Honestly, it’s one of my favorite scenes.

“Let me go, I want no part in your petty vengeance”
“You forget…”
“You, are part of my ‘petty vengeance’”

/onelessflamelegionshaman

CETheLucid.3964:

Pyre won’t suffer to deal with the Flame Legion, especially not some snot shaman who has the gall to call what he’s doing petty vengeance given what the Flame Legion has done and plans to do.

Honestly, it’s one of my favorite scenes.

“Let me go, I want no part in your petty vengeance”
“You forget…”
“You, are part of my ‘petty vengeance’”

/onelessflamelegionshaman

Steve Blum forever.

Just the way he delivers the lines as Pyre is amazing. And more amazing, he’s voicing Rytlock Brimstone, but he’s got a completely different voice and feel for him.

Kalavier.1097:

Nich, I can’t take you seriously when you literally reply about the evidence supporting the side opposite of you with “WELL IT DON’T COUNT. CAUSE ANET WANTED STORY TO GO THAT WAY SO THAT’S WHY. OTHERWISE IT WOULDN’T GO THAT WAY CAUSE REASONS!”

Obviously exaggerating the tone/volume, but that’s the message you are giving. Guess what? When an author wants a story to go a certain way, they introduce things to make it happen. Anet, I’m pretty sure, wanted to have a neutral city where all the races interacted and mingled, and that’s why LA is the way it is, NOT some evil scheme to weaken humanity.

Not and “evil” scheme to weaken Humanity to nothing more than a joke? Again with your circular argument. Again with your base-less accusations. Since your accusations mere re-states the status-quo. You believe that your not anti-human and are an open-minded and informed individual yet by your words and by your reaction to those that oppose you calls into question this persona.

Your and your peers have shown that you lack the ability to isolate the facts independent of its placement in Lore. Its obvious that you cannot accept any substantial opposition to how events and outcomes come to be in GW2 Lore.

You are blind of reality that as things stand Humanity cannot make a meaningful contribution to Tyria beyond maintaining order in Kryta and the city of Ebonhawke. It is incapable of projecting force that can called a substantial amount of military might on its own.

Where as its clear that the Asura and the Charr can. Despite this reality you believe that there is no “evil scheme” against Humanity. You are obviously been indoctrinated.

The real question is why should I take you seriously? What have you contributed to this discussion beyond demanding blind acceptance of the status quo?

Actuallly, the Asura don’t really have a military, and the Charr like humanity, have enough issues at home that they can’t deploy a huge army on a whim.

There are MANY factors in deploying an army. Logistics, numbers, current deployments, threats in the area at home and elsewhere.

Simply because humanity can’t deploy an army large enough to retake and HOLD Ascalon doesn’t mean it’s weak. Like the Charr can’t take Kryta because the logistics would kill the invasion swiftly. Retaking Ascalon isn’t just forcing the charr out. It’s forcing them out, holding the counter-attack at bay, and securing the region and outposts against natural threats… Ogres, branded, ghosts, etc.

As it stands, humanity can’t do that while also holding back the threats toward Kryta. That isn’t weakness. There is a difference between “SUCH A WEAK NATION!” and “Yeah, right now they can’t conquer another nation and hold the land.”

How would having a SINGLE city, one not even know for it’s land military, suddenly make Kryta equal to the Charr? Sure, they’d have a boosted navy, but that doesn’t help them against the Charr (if this situation).

edit: Oh, and the airships? They got working from human, asura, and charr engineering. Humanity is making meaningful contributions to Tyria’s efforts. You just can’t see them because of this “ANET HATES HUMANITY!” mindset. Seriously, try to look at other options and explanations, instead of clinging to one and refusing to consider anything else.

edit: Also do note in gw1, the charr armies STOMPED Kryta and Orr forces. Ascalon merely held because of the wall and the fact the major armies swept past them instead of staying there.

another edit: I don’t demand blind acceptance of the status quo. I’m all for what ifs and discussions of the like. I’m against people who only take a single viewpoint and refuse to think of any other as being possible (Like you’ve been). People who refuse to think about the many aspects involved in such a situation, how other people may react, their mindsets, etc.

Kalavier.1097:

There are MANY factors in deploying an army. Logistics, numbers, current deployments, threats in the area at home and elsewhere.

another edit: I don’t demand blind acceptance of the status quo. I’m all for what ifs and discussions of the like. I’m against people who only take a single viewpoint and refuse to think of any other as being possible (Like you’ve been). People who refuse to think about the many aspects involved in such a situation, how other people may react, their mindsets, etc.

You have obvious not followed(/read in any great detail), nor have read not only my current series of posts. But also a previous series which details How Devona as the leader of the guild Ascalon’s Chosen should have started a new Dynasty in Human Ascalon with its capital being Ascalon City – with the Foefire never having occurred as a result of a formal alliance agreement between Human Ascalon and Kryta – negotiations made possible by the mutual friendship and trust between the heroes and heroines of both Human nations.

You have also obviously ignored in both series how I at length and in detail cover the mechanics of the machinery of nations – how commerce, logistics, supply, military might, coverage and many other factors work together to produce outcomes not just in terms of how much land a nation can hold, but how an efficient, wealthy and militarily powerful nation/race can as a whole use this massive pool of prestige – to negotiate favourable terms with other nations and of course the Orders of Tyria.

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

Your and your peers have shown that you lack the ability to isolate the facts independent of its placement in Lore. Its obvious that you cannot accept any substantial opposition to how events and outcomes come to be in GW2 Lore.

Oh, I can accept many possibilities. I mean, I could accept the idea of humanity being strong enough to enslave other races for their own benefit (See: Kourna). But, once again, you’re changing the argument away into something which is about “Us vs You” when that’s not really the case at all.

No, see, the case is simply “this is what the lore is as it is written”. Sure, it is possible Kryta might be strong enough to unite under a single banner all the remnants of humanity to take back all the places they once lived. But that’s not what the lore stands as.

Sure, it’s also possible Ebonhawke can leverage the peace treaty into an opportunity to build up military might in secret until it can lay siege to and utterly crush the Black Citadel. However, that’s also not what the lore stands as.

And that’s the issue I have with how your claims are shaped, aside from moving from “according to how the lore could have gone” into “but that’s not what the writers want” . . . an argument which basically starts inside the game world and then moves to inside the writer’s heads, where once more . . . there’s no room to counter-argue at all.

You are blind of reality that as things stand Humanity cannot make a meaningful contribution to Tyria beyond maintaining order in Kryta and the city of Ebonhawke. It is incapable of projecting force that can called a substantial amount of military might on its own.

There are other contributions than projecting military force outside the borders of where you live. Not everything in the world boils down to the strength of a closed fist.

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

Kalavier.1097:

There are MANY factors in deploying an army. Logistics, numbers, current deployments, threats in the area at home and elsewhere.

another edit: I don’t demand blind acceptance of the status quo. I’m all for what ifs and discussions of the like. I’m against people who only take a single viewpoint and refuse to think of any other as being possible (Like you’ve been). People who refuse to think about the many aspects involved in such a situation, how other people may react, their mindsets, etc.

You have obvious not followed(/read in any great detail), nor have read not only my current series of posts. But also a previous series which details How Devona as the leader of the guild Ascalon’s Chosen should have started a new Dynasty in Human Ascalon with its capital being Ascalon City – with the Foefire never having occurred as a result of a formal alliance agreement between Human Ascalon and Kryta – negotiations made possible by the mutual friendship and trust between the heroes and heroines of both Human nations.

Said heroes would have to kill or get Adelbern off the throne for that to ever happen. Now TRUE, IF Adelbern was removed (killed by a charr?) and replaced by one of Barridan’s line who is reasonable and accepted Kryta’s aid (during the War in Kryta events), I could see Ascalon lasting much longer, but with Adelbern on the throne that is IMPOSSIBLE.

You have also obviously ignored in both series how I at length and in detail cover the mechanics of the machinery of nations – how commerce, logistics, supply, military might, coverage and many other factors work together to produce outcomes not just in terms of how much land a nation can hold, but how an efficient, wealthy and militarily powerful nation/race can as a whole use this massive pool of prestige – to negotiate favourable terms with other nations and of course the Orders of Tyria.

I don’t see how that relates to Kryta trying to retake Ascalon and HOLDING it from the counter-attack.

I could see how it relates to taking back LA, but not to the effect you seem to wish it to do though.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

And that’s the issue I have with how your claims are shaped, aside from moving from “according to how the lore could have gone” into “but that’s not what the writers want” . . . an argument which basically starts inside the game world and then moves to inside the writer’s heads, where once more . . . there’s no room to counter-argue at all.

My issues with him are how he’ll do what if situations and then throw in things that completely are not fitting with Lore. Such as Gwen, Vekk, and Odgen encountering nightfall firsthand. Or the Asura having an army they can deploy in strong force. Or the Norn having a nation.

What if’s are great… until you start twisting the lore into something unrecognizable.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

Your and your peers have shown that you lack the ability to isolate the facts independent of its placement in Lore. Its obvious that you cannot accept any substantial opposition to how events and outcomes come to be in GW2 Lore.

Oh, I can accept many possibilities. I mean, I could accept the idea of humanity being strong enough to enslave other races for their own benefit (See: Kourna). But, once again, you’re changing the argument away into something which is about “Us vs You” when that’s not really the case at all.

No, see, the case is simply “this is what the lore is as it is written”. Sure, it is possible Kryta might be strong enough to unite under a single banner all the remnants of humanity to take back all the places they once lived. But that’s not what the lore stands as.

Sure, it’s also possible Ebonhawke can leverage the peace treaty into an opportunity to build up military might in secret until it can lay siege to and utterly crush the Black Citadel. However, that’s also not what the lore stands as.

And that’s the issue I have with how your claims are shaped, aside from moving from “according to how the lore could have gone” into “but that’s not what the writers want” . . . an argument which basically starts inside the game world and then moves to inside the writer’s heads, where once more . . . there’s no room to counter-argue at all.

This. There are an infinite number of possibilities that would allow humanity to be the unrivaled masters of Tyria. But none of those possibilities are “a foregone conclusion that is the only option that could logically have happened”.

CETheLucid.3964:

Pyre was a prisoner marked for execution because of his apostasy and if we didn’t crash the Flame Legion party, he’d be dead.

Moreover after the fact, if we didn’t stop Gwen from torturing him to death in his cell, he’d also be dead.

Not to mention every other scene he’s Gwen’s punching bag. I fail to see the cruelness exhibited when he’s the first one willing to lay aside his differences to deal with us.

Self-serving? Eh, in the interests of saving his life and warband, sure, I guess. You’d do the same thing given you had a chip to barter with.

If he didn’t have anything for us, you think the PC or Gwen is going to give two kittens about some random charr? Gwen would have killed him.

As I said, Pyre became our ally through circumstance. He had something we wanted (the location of the captured Ebon Vanguard troops), and we had something he wanted (a weapon of vengeance against the Flame Legion). It certainly wasn’t done out of a desire for friendship or a shared belief.

Gwen would have happily tortured Pyre to death in his cell, but this is Gwen we’re talking about. She’s got good reason to hate the Charr. But everybody else in that party thought Gwen was crazy for wanting to do so (Vekk, the PC and Ogden) and tried to stop her. That tells me that even if Pyre didn’t know where Captain Langmar and the Vanguard were, they’d still not have murdered him in his cell. (At worst, they’d probably have just left him in there for the Flame Legion to find when they came back.)

Pyre’s dialogue when he’s in your party suggests he takes every opportunity to mock and taunt Gwen when he can, and he is openly proud of the Searing and the role his father (Vatlaaw Doomtooth) played in causing it. That all tells me he really doesn’t give a grawl’s painted hiney about the thousands of innocent deaths the Searing caused, and he doesn’t really regard humans as equals. He would give no more thought to killing a human as he would slaughtering a cow.

CETheLucid.3964:

Don’t remember that. It’s been a while, I’ll need a source.

If you’re talking about when he shrugs off the compliment the PC gives him that charr have honor, he’s saying he does what he has to do. Honor be kittened.

When we first take Doomlore Shrine, he has several members of his warband hidden.

If he had wanted to kill us, it would have been a simple thing to do. We’d never see it coming. Our PC admits this moment when Pyre tells them to come out.

Yes, that’s the part I was talking about. But when you combine that with the fact that he just killed the captive Flame shaman later, that tells me that he doesn’t believe in adhering to any agreement if he could get away with breaking it. To borrow from D&D parlance, his behaviour has all the hallmarks of “Chaotic Evil” written all over it.

We didn’t see his warband lying in ambush, no, but I seriously doubt they could have beaten us, even with the advantage of surprise. This is the PC and his/her friends we’re talking about; they’ve killed the Lich, Shiro and a freaking GOD. We’re probably the closest Tyria has seen to a real-life superhero. There’s even a quest later where you can fight the entire Fierce warband (minus Pyre, who can be in your party for some odd reason) and if you’re a halfway decent player, you can crush them all easily.

CETheLucid.3964:

In that scene you’re talking about, he’s dealing with a Flame Legion shaman. Two very different situations. Context is everything. Pyre could suffer to deal with humans.

Pyre won’t suffer to deal with the Flame Legion, especially not some snot shaman who has the gall to call what he’s doing petty vengeance given what the Flame Legion has done and plans to do.

Honestly, it’s one of my favorite scenes.

Pyre just hates Flame Legion more than he does humans. (Whom he regards with contempt, but by the end of EotN, he does seem to develop a grudging respect for us.) He also had nothing to lose by killing the captive; it’s not like we were going to suddenly side with the Flame Legion, and since he was already Public Enemy #1 in the Flame Legion’s eyes, one more kill wasn’t going to lower his status any more. All I’m saying that, if the hatred was switched around and Pyre hated humans more than the Flame Legion, he’d no doubt have done exactly the same to us as he did to the shaman, if he thought he could get away with it.

But I do agree with you that that scene was very well done though.

Zaxares.5419:

As I said, Pyre became our ally through circumstance. He had something we wanted (the location of the captured Ebon Vanguard troops), and we had something he wanted (a weapon of vengeance against the Flame Legion). It certainly wasn’t done out of a desire for friendship or a shared belief.

The bargaining chip he used to save himself and his warband was the location of the Ebon Vanguard.

That we were weapons against the flame legion is something of a mutual benefit. We all hate the flame legion. As an ascalonian, I certainly do.

Flame legion sucks. Shared belief. We have one. After we had saved his warband, he was free to say “they’re that’a way!” and be on his merry way.

Zaxares.5419:

Gwen would have happily tortured Pyre to death in his cell, but this is Gwen we’re talking about.

Granted.

Yeah, Gwen and Pyre pick on each other. She hits him, he mocks and taunts her. If you follow the storyline, you’ll understand Pyre “gets” her.

It’s one of the reasons he puts up with her. They share the same kind of hatred for the flame legion.

Gwen’s hatred is more general in nature because she does not understand the charr or their politics. All she get’s is that charr are evil sons of kittens and they need death badly.

Given the time period and indeed the awful things Gwen went through and suffered with the charr, this is completely understandable.

Pyre demonstrates his intelligence and honorable nature in understanding this. He also demonstrates his pride and “i ain’t your kitten” nature when he messes with her in kind.

She hits him. He mocks and taunts her. Take it for what you will.

Pyre can’t do anything about the Searing and I do indeed doubt he gives a kitten about any deeper human sentiments regarding the event.

Keep perspective and context in check when thinking about these things.

I mean what? Did you expect Pyre to get on his knees and apologize for the searing or to take Gwen’s PTSD episodes quietly and meekly? lol

BTW when we’re rescuing his warband and one of Pyre’s warband asks him if we’re slaves or lunch, if Gwen is not in your party, Pyre rebuffs him.

He says times are changing. We’re allies and we’re helping of our own accord.

Lunch = Cows
PC = Human
Cows != Allies

Zaxares.5419:

Yes, that’s the part I was talking about. But when you combine that with the fact that he just killed the captive Flame shaman later, that tells me that he doesn’t believe in adhering to any agreement if he could get away with breaking it.

You really seem hung up on Pyre offing that flame legion shaman.

You overlook a lot of things to jump to that conclusion. Actions speak louder than words. Pyre’s actions were largely of an honorable nature. He became an antihero.

He was a character who any ascalonian could justify hating, and ended up becoming an ally to the PC and a hero of the charr.

Chaotic evil is a gross misrepresentation of Pyre’s character, the evidence doesn’t support that. Chaotic neutral-leaning-good?

Not strictly evil though.

A saint he certainly is not, but he’s not the same brand of hellcat we routinely slaughter in GW1 (and 2 for that matter).

It is very important to understand the difference if you consider yourself a morally decent person alignment wise!

Zaxares.5419:

We didn’t see his warband lying in ambush, no, but I seriously doubt they could have beaten us, even with the advantage of surprise. This is the PC and his/her friends we’re talking about; they’ve killed the Lich, Shiro and a freaking GOD. We’re probably the closest Tyria has seen to a real-life superhero. There’s even a quest later where you can fight the entire Fierce warband (minus Pyre, who can be in your party for some odd reason) and if you’re a halfway decent player, you can crush them all easily.

No matter how skilled you are, if a group of people suddenly ambush you from behind with weapons and take you entirely by surprise, you are at their mercy.

Even Superman has to watch out for kryptonite.

It was entirely in his power to kill us or send us off and do his own thing and be done with us. He didn’t do that.

It wasn’t necessary nor was he obligated to coordinate his efforts with us any further than giving us the intel on Captain Langmar and the Ebon Vanguard whereabouts.

He trained us and aided us with our assault on the flame legion stronghold.

Pyre’s a decent character. That he’s snappy about it (Honor be kittened!), beguiles he’s a humble guy. Charr style.

CETheLucid.3964:

That we were weapons against the flame legion is something of a mutual benefit. We all hate the flame legion. As an ascalonian, I certainly do.

Flame legion sucks. Shared belief. We have one. After we had saved his warband, he was free to say “they’re that’a way!” and be on his merry way.

We can agree on the Flame Legion sucking, yes. My GW1 Ascalonian Warrior deeply regrets we never managed to take down the Flame Legion within his lifetime. (But he agreed that it was more important to get a life built for the civilians and survivors first.)

I would have “insisted” on Pyre coming along for the assault, however. I wouldn’t have put it past him at the time to perhaps send an anonymous warning to the Flame Legion that we were coming, only to then sneak into the back of the fortress while they were distracted with us and kill the leaders, using us as suicidal bait.

CETheLucid.3964:

Pyre demonstrates his intelligence and honorable nature in understanding this. He also demonstrates his pride and “i ain’t your kitten” nature when he messes with her in kind.

Pyre can’t do anything about the Searing and I do indeed doubt he gives a kitten about any deeper human sentiments regarding the event.

I mean what? Did you expect Pyre to get on his knees and apologize for the searing or to take Gwen’s PTSD episodes quietly and meekly? lol

I’m afraid I still don’t really see Pyre as an “honorable” Charr, at least not by our standards of what constitutes as honor. (What he’s doing might be perfectly acceptable standards of behaviour in Charr society of the time, of course.) He does what he needs to win, and he leaves no enemies or potential threats behind him. This is what I meant when I said that I DO respect him, because were I in his shoes, I’d probably do the same. But I don’t trust him.

Of course I don’t expect Pyre to apologise to Gwen for what happened to her, or the Searing. But he doesn’t demonstrate much compassion either, and I still feel he takes some pleasure in getting a rise out of Gwen.

CETheLucid.3964:

BTW when we’re rescuing his warband and one of Pyre’s warband asks him if we’re slaves or lunch, if Gwen is not in your party, Pyre rebuffs him.

Now this is something I might have missed! Gwen was permanently glued to my party from EotN onwards (<3 those Mesmer interrupts), so if there was dialogue from Pyre about this, then it was something I never knew about.

CETheLucid.3964:

Chaotic evil is a gross misrepresentation of Pyre’s character, the evidence doesn’t support that. Chaotic neutral-leaning-good?

Not strictly evil though.

A saint he certainly is not, but he’s not the same brand of hellcat we routinely slaughter in GW1 (and 2 for that matter).

It is very important to understand the difference if you consider yourself a morally decent person alignment wise!

I might be convinced to think of Pyre as Chaotic Neutral, with some Evil tendencies. But definitely not “Good”. I honestly doubt that Pyre wanted to free the Charr from the Shamans’ yoke for altruistic reasons. More than likely he just hated the Shamans and a full-scale revolution was the best way to see them brought down.

Basically, my baseline for determining whether someone is Good or Evil is whether they take pleasure from helping people or hurting people. Anyone who enjoys causing pain and suffering, justified or not, is falling towards Evil. They may be able to straddle the line if what they do is for a “greater good”, or protecting the innocent, but too often that just ends up becoming a justification for their own sadistic desires.

I honestly can’t say whether or not the hundreds (thousands?) of Charr we slaughter in GW1 were Evil. Were they true zealots who wanted nothing more than to destroy humanity or enslave them all? Or were they simply soldiers who were following orders because they were told that it was what humans deserved? I’m inclined to think the vast majority of them (the non-Flame Legion at least) were the latter.

Pyre’s warband provide a good example of that. They follow his lead and want to see the Flame Legion brought low, but they seem more “level-headed” about it. (I definitely wouldn’t peg Gron or Bonwor as Evil, for example.)

CETheLucid.3964:

No matter how skilled you are, if a group of people suddenly ambush you from behind with weapons and take you entirely by surprise, you are at their mercy.

We weren’t walking into the camp blithely unaware though. Our characters still had their weapons out, and Gwen was actively watching for betrayal. (Besides, Tahlkora has awesome reflexes with Protective Spirit. ) The Fierce warband numbers about 5 in total; there are however many Heroes the player has, plus the Henchies. We grossly outnumber them. The PC has access to far more powerful skills (PvE skills, plus the Rebel Yell bonus) than Pyre had. There was honestly no way Pyre could have beaten us had he decided to attack us there.

So, all that considered, it was in Pyre’s best interests that he work with us and give us the best possible chance of succeeding in the assault against the Flame Legion stronghold. It wasn’t surprising he did what he did.

If the situation had been different (we were instead ragtag band of Ebon Vanguard trying desperately to save their comrades), and Pyre decided to send us on our way after seeing even with our forces combined we had no hope of effecting a rescue, then yes, I’d have a much different opinion of Pyre.

CETheLucid.3964:

Pyre’s a decent character. That he’s snappy about it (Honor be kittened!), beguiles he’s a humble guy. Charr style.

We’ll have to agree to disagree on that. Mind you, I agree he’s a well-written character! I just don’t like him. :P I could easily see myself buddying up to Gron or Bonwor or that Ritualist who likes to make jokes about eating us. But Pyre? Duel to the death at dawn!

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

There are other contributions than projecting military force outside the borders of where you live. Not everything in the world boils down to the strength of a closed fist.

That level of contribution would be best be considered as a support role as best. But its more likely to not only a support role, but also a minor role. Such a role would do no favours for the human race in Tyria. The more powerful races would be grateful ….. but NOT respectful of Humanity. Some among the more powerful races would go so far to view Humanity with contempt. And we have seem evidence of this throughout Tyria in the events of the current game.

Where-as the Asura and Charr are held in high regard in terms of their overall strength as nations the same is far from universal for Humanity.

And so my view that Humanity in reality is seen as a little more than a joke and at best a charity case – holds, and holds firm. Humanity is effectively only allowed to contribute where extra coverage is needed in a non-priority mission/target. Leaving high-value tasks and rewards for themselves. Proof of this is Ebonhawke and the Field of Ruin region. The area is a virtual wasteland of marginal value, and thus Humanity is allowed to keep their city to contain the threat from the Dragonbrand corruption. This is the reality of Humanity in Tyria at this point in time.

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

There are other contributions than projecting military force outside the borders of where you live. Not everything in the world boils down to the strength of a closed fist.

That level of contribution would be best be considered as a support role as best.

What a narrow view you have concerning this. Is strength through arms and conquest the only strength which matters?

But its more likely to not only a support role, but also a minor role. Such a role would do no favours for the human race in Tyria. The more powerful races would be grateful ….. but NOT respectful of Humanity. Some among the more powerful races would go so far to view Humanity with contempt. And we have seem evidence of this throughout Tyria in the events of the current game.

I foresee something different. Let me tell you…

I foresee that sort of future, where humanity does come out of things, stronger for having endured it.

Where-as the Asura and Charr are held in high regard in terms of their overall strength as nations the same is far from universal for Humanity.

. . . they are? I mean, charr are recognized as remarkably good at warfare, certainly. But asura? They’re known more for riding the dangerously bleeding edge of technology and seeing just what rules of the universe they can make cry today.

And so my view that Humanity in reality is seen as a little more than a joke and at best a charity case – holds, and holds firm. Humanity is effectively only allowed to contribute where extra coverage is needed in a non-priority mission/target. Leaving high-value tasks and rewards for themselves.

You’ve seen this? Because I’ve seen human members of the Pact just as active as others, and succeeding at missions perhaps more often than in other places. (Poor Keeper Jonez Deadrun will never succeed.)

Then there’s the undeniable note of a human being one of the last to deal with Scarlet Briar. Everyone else was injured, incapacitated, or otherwise occupied – except a human mesmer.

Talk to me some more about how humanity is a failure.

Proof of this is Ebonhawke and the Field of Ruin region. The area is a virtual wasteland of marginal value, and thus Humanity is allowed to keep their city to contain the threat from the Dragonbrand corruption. This is the reality of Humanity in Tyria at this point in time.

Really? I see Sentinels doing that work of containment and disruption, not human forces. I see human forces working to claim some areas to expand into, and loan Ebon Vanguard to attack some ogre targets just inside the southern Blazeridge Steppes. Targets which, I will note, are not acted on unless human strike teams also engage.

Again, please, keep going on about how humanity is of no use to anyone.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Really? I see Sentinels doing that work of containment and disruption, not human forces. I see human forces working to claim some areas to expand into, and loan Ebon Vanguard to attack some ogre targets just inside the southern Blazeridge Steppes. Targets which, I will note, are not acted on unless human strike teams also engage.

Again, please, keep going on about how humanity is of no use to anyone.

You have effectively confirmed my point and agreed with me. The East Ascalon regions is effectively a no-go area with no major settlements and no sense of stability than can be claimed my either race. The situation is very fluid and could go either way.

As far Humanity gaining anything from their current situation? No they will not. Kryta has limited options and limited resources due to being block by the Centaur tribal clans to the north(with the Dredge behind them) and thus cutting off safe trade routes to the Norn. And thanks to Arenanet taking Lion’s Arch from the Krytan Crown control Humanity’s access to the south and the sea is limited too. To the east a land route is extremely dangerous with again major sources of danger among them the Centaurs, the Bandits and of course the Dragonbrand corruption – thus access is limited to the Asura Gates.

Its can clearly be seen that the only way forward for Humanity is a safe trade route out into the world that it has complete and direct access and control. That access route passes through Lion’s Arch. It is the most direct access to Cantha and Elona to the south.

Thus for Tyrian Humanity to truly prosper beyond it current circumstance it MUST have full and effective control of its only safe window to the world outside of Tyria. That window has a name. And its name is: Lion’s Arch.

The way it seems to me is that humans may not particularly excel at any one thing, but are exceptionally versatile and unimaginably tenacious. If there’s one thing humanity would be known for if they were to ever go extinct, it would probably be that no matter what they were given, they held on to it far longer than any other race could or would care to. Ascalon was dirt and tar, but it still held out over a hundred years after it became that way. I’ve never got the feeling that the asura were known for their military prowess. I wasn’t even sure the Asura had an official military at all. I assumed so, but was one ever mentioned? The only factions I see are the colleges, various krewes, and Inquest, who I assume might just kind of loosely band together if needed. Except maybe the inquest. No one likes to play with those guys. The Sylvari I don’t see bringing much to the table, honestly, except a fresh perspective. They can adapt technology into plant hybrids, apparently, also. The norn, also, except replace fresh perspective with the occasional strong armed mercenary.

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

There are other contributions than projecting military force outside the borders of where you live. Not everything in the world boils down to the strength of a closed fist.

That level of contribution would be best be considered as a support role as best. But its more likely to not only a support role, but also a minor role. Such a role would do no favours for the human race in Tyria. The more powerful races would be grateful ….. but NOT respectful of Humanity. Some among the more powerful races would go so far to view Humanity with contempt. And we have seem evidence of this throughout Tyria in the events of the current game.

Actually, Kryta holds the most usable, fertile farmland, Which helps them. Again, they field a military, strong enough to back and forth with the Centaurs. Just because they CANNOT conquer an ENTIRE REGION and hold it secure (against counter-attack or natural threat) doesn’t make them weak. Infact, nothing in the game even implies humanity to be that weak.

Where-as the Asura and Charr are held in high regard in terms of their overall strength as nations the same is far from universal for Humanity.

The Asura have no military. Their strength is in tech/asura gates and waypoints. Just like the charr’s is engineering and military and the humans have different strengths. I’ve not really seen the Asura or Charr held in super high regard(while also belittling humanity), bar cases WITHIN their own race (which doesn’t count, as all races have a few people thinking themselves better then everybody else. Asura moreso)

And so my view that Humanity in reality is seen as a little more than a joke and at best a charity case – holds, and holds firm. Humanity is effectively only allowed to contribute where extra coverage is needed in a non-priority mission/target. Leaving high-value tasks and rewards for themselves.

Only this is never shown ingame. Why would a “Charity case” be one of the major factors of the airships operating smoothly? (It’s ASURA, HUMAN, AND CHARR engineering/thinking that caused them to work best).

They are never shoved to the side, and we NEVER see anybody suddenly go “Nope, no Seraph here. Go away weaklings we’ll handle it.” Hell, you have charr-human teams in the one area of Ascalon who work together (although as part of the heart you get BOTH sides to accept the other). The Charr actually IIRC, state they can learn some fighting styles/tactics from humanity.

Proof of this is Ebonhawke and the Field of Ruin region. The area is a virtual wasteland of marginal value, and thus Humanity is allowed to keep their city to contain the threat from the Dragonbrand corruption. This is the reality of Humanity in Tyria at this point in time.

Only Ebonhawke isn’t really attacked by the branded these days. The region isn’t a wasteland at all, they have forests (thin, but there) and grass growing. Not the best land, but NOT a wasteland. Fields of Ruin is human land, though the charr have a base to watch over the brand and a research base for the brand as well.

Eastern Ascalon is devoid of many large settlements (there are a few though) because of the brand making land travel extremely tough, if not impossible. It is not a wasteland at all (I fail to understand how you even can picture that…), it’s just you can’t ship goods back to BC safely, can’t ship goods in… so why set up a ranch over there? or a town? or a mine?

Again, how the heck is Fields of Ruin a wasteland?

Squee.7829:

The way it seems to me is that humans may not particularly excel at any one thing, but are exceptionally versatile and unimaginably tenacious. If there’s one thing humanity would be known for if they were to ever go extinct, it would probably be that no matter what they were given, they held on to it far longer than any other race could or would care to. Ascalon was dirt and tar, but it still held out over a hundred years after it became that way. I’ve never got the feeling that the asura were known for their military prowess. I wasn’t even sure the Asura had an official military at all. I assumed so, but was one ever mentioned?

Ascalon as a human nation fell within… 20-30 years of EOTN end IIRC

Also no, the Asura have no military. They have the peacemakers/keepers (whichever it is), and their golems, but not real military force/might.

Kalavier.1097:

Only Ebonhawke isn’t really attacked by the branded these days. The region isn’t a wasteland at all, they have forests (thin, but there) and grass growing. Not the best land, but NOT a wasteland. Fields of Ruin is human land, though the charr have a base to watch over the brand and a research base for the brand as well.

Eastern Ascalon is devoid of many large settlements (there are a few though) because of the brand making land travel extremely tough, if not impossible. It is not a wasteland at all (I fail to understand how you even can picture that…), it’s just you can’t ship goods back to BC safely, can’t ship goods in… so why set up a ranch over there? or a town? or a mine?

Again, how the heck is Fields of Ruin a wasteland?

Have you actually looked at how close the Dragonbrand corruption is in relation to the Fields of Ruin? seriously? We are talking about from the point of view of a travelling merchant that is considering the risk level of travelling to and from Lion’s Arch/Ebonhawke by road.

The Dragonbrand is an effective land barrier. Only trained soldiers would risk road travel . And as to the region having villages/settlements/small holdings and farms? That is clearly an uninformed design decision. No civilian would establish any type of farm or settlement anywhere near the corruption.

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Really? I see Sentinels doing that work of containment and disruption, not human forces. I see human forces working to claim some areas to expand into, and loan Ebon Vanguard to attack some ogre targets just inside the southern Blazeridge Steppes. Targets which, I will note, are not acted on unless human strike teams also engage.

Again, please, keep going on about how humanity is of no use to anyone.

You have effectively confirmed my point and agreed with me. The East Ascalon regions is effectively a no-go area with no major settlements and no sense of stability than can be claimed by either race. The situation is very fluid and could go either way.

I’ve confirmed your point? I’m curious as to where you think that’s the case where you said there wasn’t anything humanity was doing and I pointed out they were hard at work . . . and winning.

As far Humanity gaining anything from their current situation? No they will not.

. . . by your interpretation of things, not by the reality.

Kryta has limited options and limited resources due to being block by the Centaur tribal clans to the north(with the Dredge behind them) and thus cutting off safe trade routes to the Norn.

Strangely enough, even without “safe” trade routes, there’s still enough trade going on to make it work.

And thanks to Arenanet taking Lion’s Arch from the Krytan Crown control Humanity’s access to the south and the sea is limited too.

I love it how you stick that bit of “out of game” in when discussing lore. It makes it impossible to argue seriously within the context of the game when just a little bit before you were trying to analyze maps and territories and in the next, “ANet made sure they couldn’t have Lion’s Arch”.

Regardless, the access to the south has actually been fairly restricted due to Viathan Lake in Kessex Hills. Luckily, Garrenhoff still has access to the sea. It even has a harbor.

To the east a land route is extremely dangerous with again major sources of danger among them the Centaurs, the Bandits and of course the Dragonbrand corruption – thus access is limited to the Asura Gates.

And back again to lore mechanics rather than “ANet put the Dragonbrand there to screw with humanity”.

Asura gates are also some of the best options they have for moving supplies, by the way. It allows anything quarried in Ebonhawke to be sent to Divinity’s Reach, and anything farmed in Queensdale to be sent back across.

Its can clearly be seen that the only way forward for Humanity is a safe trade route out into the world that it has complete and direct access and control. That access route passes through Lion’s Arch. It is the most direct access to Cantha and Elona to the south.

Again, this is only the way you have of seeing it. Oh, there’s two other problems: both those places are hostile and won’t be of any use to try to connect to. Cantha is in an isolationist period, Elona is mostly ruled by Palawa Joko and is in worse shape as far as good options go.

And a third issue . . . that deep sea dragon.

Thus for Tyrian Humanity to truly prosper beyond it current circumstance it MUST have full and effective control of its only safe window to the world outside of Tyria. That window has a name. And its name is: Lion’s Arch.

Actually, there’s another option but they haven’t fully considered using it. It’s called the Mists.

I can’t believe this discussion just keeps on going, not even sure what it’s still about (not going to read through 19 pages).

Mostly it’s about Nicholas arguing that the existing game lore is wrong and how humans can and should be the dominant race in GW2, if only the devs weren’t so biased against them and nerfing them so the 5 races can be “equal”.

Plus a small side argument between me and CETheLucid about Pyre Fierceshot.

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

Kalavier.1097:

Only Ebonhawke isn’t really attacked by the branded these days. The region isn’t a wasteland at all, they have forests (thin, but there) and grass growing. Not the best land, but NOT a wasteland. Fields of Ruin is human land, though the charr have a base to watch over the brand and a research base for the brand as well.

Eastern Ascalon is devoid of many large settlements (there are a few though) because of the brand making land travel extremely tough, if not impossible. It is not a wasteland at all (I fail to understand how you even can picture that…), it’s just you can’t ship goods back to BC safely, can’t ship goods in… so why set up a ranch over there? or a town? or a mine?

Again, how the heck is Fields of Ruin a wasteland?

Have you actually looked at how close the Dragonbrand corruption is in relation to the Fields of Ruin? seriously? We are talking about from the point of view of a travelling merchant that is considering the risk level of travelling to and from Lion’s Arch/Ebonhawke by road.

The Dragonbrand is an effective land barrier. Only trained soldiers would risk road travel . And as to the region having villages/settlements/small holdings and farms? That is clearly an uninformed design decision. No civilian would establish any type of farm or settlement anywhere near the corruption.

Anybody who travels to Ebonhawke from Lion’s Arch will take the Asura gate to DR, and then to Ebonhawke. THAT is how they get their trade in actually. They send ore mined from their quarry through the gate to DR for selling, and bring in supplies. A merchant going to Ebonghawke wouldn’t go by road because of the sheer DISTANCE. Not because of the brand. Sure it’s a factor, but you are talking about not only going over the shiverpeaks (which is kinda more dangerous these days then before), but also traveling across ALL of Ascalon, + the brand. They’d simply pack enough wares to cover the gate cost to and back, and still have a profit.

Dragonbrand is a barrier, I said that. We all know that. Also, the settlements to the east of it likely existed BEFOREHAND. And simply they didn’t want to relocate. Most are actually a bit away from the brand, only a few are ontop of it and those are all heavily manned by sentinals. Again, it’s not a wasteland to the eat of the brand. It’s simply hard to reach. Ebonhawke is establishing camps and a farm outside of the walls.

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

I can’t believe this discussion just keeps on going, not even sure what it’s still about (not going to read through 19 pages).

It’s generally at the moment Nich talking about how badly humanity is, as said.

Zaxares.5419:

Mostly it’s about Nicholas arguing that the existing game lore is wrong and how humans can and should be the dominant race in GW2, if only the devs weren’t so biased against them and nerfing them so the 5 races can be “equal”.

Plus a small side argument between me and CETheLucid about Pyre Fierceshot.

And you are brainwashed/indoctrinated (or anti human) if you don’t see them taking LA from Kryta as anything other then shoving humanity into the mud and kicking it.

Oh, and how having LA would make Kryta a military superpower able to match the charr or Asura military.

Zaxares.5419:

Plus a small side argument between me and CETheLucid about Pyre Fierceshot.

I don’t know what the argument is. He is awesome and brings great honor to rangers by being one.

. . . also, he could totally take Rytlock in a fight.

Oh, definitely. Rytlock’s a pansy who keels over after being slapped around by ghosts a couple of times. XD

Pyre’s a well-written character, and yes, he makes a kitten Ranger. But as an individual I just can’t stomach him. :P

Zaxares.5419:

Mostly it’s about Nicholas arguing that the existing game lore is wrong and how humans can and should be the dominant race in GW2, if only the devs weren’t so biased against them and nerfing them so the 5 races can be “equal”.

Excuse me? Did you say that the races are essentially equal at least at the start of the events of GW2 the game? Seriously?

Also I never said Humanity should be the dominant race as it was in GW(1) in Tyria. Your confused and misguided post is full of errors and statements that I’ve never made or suggested.

Starting with Humanity I believe that they should control the land south of a mostly repaired Great Northern Wall with Ascalon City as its current capital. With the Foefire never taking place. The ruling Dynasty in Human Ascalon is one that started with Devona who became Queen for her leadership achievements of the Ascalon’s Chosen Guild. Rin its former capital in time gradually recovers but is now a military forward operations base ensure the Great Northern Wall is never threaten again.

In Kryta humanity moved its capital away from the southern coast due to the Orrian Catalysm and establishs its new Capital and second city in Divinity Reach.

Kryta then takes back control of Lion’s Arch after finding evidence that the pirate cartel used stolen Krytan gold to build a criminal empire. As a result of having its main port returned to the nation it becomes the main trading centre with Human Ascalon and the rest of Tyria. This trade is on the back of an official alliance between Kryta and Human Ascalon. This alliance ensures the prosperity and security of these two Human kingdoms and allows both to build formidable military and naval forces(Kryta). Thus humanity is now competitive with its neighbours – far from dominant since Orr is lost and the Elder Dragons have pushed the Asura out from underground. And the emergence of the Sylvari as a new Tyrian major race.

As for the Norn and the Charr? They now see that Humanity has recovered from the insanity that was the Guild Wars that almost shattered all three Kingdoms. And thus once more a relatively stable and strong race that is deserving of their respect.

The Charr seeing that the Human Kingdoms have a solid military and trade alliance with each other realise that their ambition to take all of the Tyrian human lands for themselves is now effectively extinguished. Thus the High Legions now acknowledge the need to negotiate with the Human alliance to secure their mutual borders.

This approximates what I think should have been a possible and likely outcome of the events after that of the first game.

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

Zaxares.5419:

Mostly it’s about Nicholas arguing that the existing game lore is wrong and how humans can and should be the dominant race in GW2, if only the devs weren’t so biased against them and nerfing them so the 5 races can be “equal”.

Excuse me? Did you say that the races are essentially equal at least at the start of the events of GW2 the game? Seriously?

Also I never said Humanity should be the dominant race as it was in GW(1) in Tyria. Your confused and misguided post is full of errors and statements that I’ve never made or suggested.

Given you do the same to other people, I think it’s fair someone did it to you. No offense, naturally.

This approximates what I think should have been a possible and likely outcome of the events after that of the first game.

Yes, sure, should we cover how this goes against the general theme of the game? The dragons ran the norn out of the north, the asura out of the Depths, and dropped a big pile of “oh dead gods why” on the charr in the form of the Dragonbrand, and the sylvari are too new to the world to have much in the form of lasting power.

The theme of the game is how all civilization of the five races is threatened by the dragons and their minions. Not “humanity is too weak to stand” but “all races need to wake up and smell the apocalypse”. Jormag’s influence keeps spreading southwards, Zhaitan (was) pressuring everything to the south of Kessex Hills along the coastline, Primordius’ destroyers basically only kept in check (assumedly) because the dwarves sacrificed themselves. Kralk’s minions keep expanding the Dragonbrand’s danger zone.

And, apparently, Mordremoth’s had a nice nap and is ready to get in on the fun too.

What is the decline of humanity in the face of the end of every civilization once again in the vicious cycle alluded to in Arah (Explorable) and the Tome of Rubicon?

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

Zaxares.5419:

Mostly it’s about Nicholas arguing that the existing game lore is wrong and how humans can and should be the dominant race in GW2, if only the devs weren’t so biased against them and nerfing them so the 5 races can be “equal”.

Excuse me? Did you say that the races are essentially equal at least at the start of the events of GW2 the game? Seriously?

Also I never said Humanity should be the dominant race as it was in GW(1) in Tyria. Your confused and misguided post is full of errors and statements that I’ve never made or suggested.

I won’t dig up the quote, but you actually did as I recall, say at one point that humanity should’ve gotten the ‘legacy of the dwarves’ and become the prominent military power in Tyria. edit: IIRC, you also said the charr should’ve remained as semi-nomadic people instead of the industrial head.

starting with Humanity I believe that they should control the land south of a mostly repaired Great Northern Wall with Ascalon City as its current capital. With the Foefire never taking place. The ruling Dynasty in Human Ascalon is one that started with Devona who became Queen for her leadership achievements of the Ascalon’s Chosen Guild. Rin its former capital in time gradually recovers but is now a military forward operations base ensure the Great Northern Wall is never threaten again.

Only Devona is not of any royal line (that we know of), Would have to forcably depose of Adelbern, and then get picked for the throne over Barriden or one of his children (or whoever Samuelson is descended from). Barriden who was also popular and actually stayed in Ascalon the entire time, where as Devona and crew did most of their heavy adventuring… away from Ascalon, and not there fighting the charr. We also have no evidence of where they ended up.

Kryta then takes back control of Lion’s Arch after finding evidence that the pirate cartel used stolen Krytan gold to build a criminal empire. As a result of having its main port returned to the nation it becomes the main trading centre with Human Ascalon and the rest of Tyria. This trade is on the back of an official alliance between Kryta and Human Ascalon. This alliance ensures the prosperity and security of these two Human kingdoms and allows both to build formidable military and naval forces(Kryta). Thus humanity is now competitive with its neighbours – far from dominant since Orr is lost and the Elder Dragons have pushed the Asura out from underground. And the emergence of the Sylvari as a new Tyrian major race.

So what, Edair just turns back on his word and conquers it anyway? or his successor does? Proving humanity to Asura, Charr, and Norn as liers who don’t follow through on their treaties?

The Charr seeing that the Human Kingdoms have a solid military and trade alliance with each other realise that their ambition to take all of the Tyrian human lands for themselves is now effectively extinguished. Thus the High Legions now acknowledge the need to negotiate with the Human alliance to secure their mutual borders.

This approximates what I think should have been a possible and likely outcome of the events after that of the first game.

Yeah, seeing an alliance between the recovering Krytan nation and the already majorly weakened Ascalon would just drive ALL want to recover Ascalon from them… Nope. The shiverpeaks would make such an alliance hard to effectively pull off, and while yes, they could last longer with Krytan aid, I doubt it’d be enough to effectively stop the charr or make them give up on assaulting Ascalon.

The charr were already assaulting humanity before they lost all that they had. They engaged in treaties only after humanity lost what they had. So……. yeah. Makes no sense that they give up on their ancestral homeland because of two strong human nations when they had no misgivings about going to war with three of them.

And confirming Kalaviers point, LA has only been as successful as it has been due to not being controlled by Kryta. It was nothing compared to what it is now when it was the actual capitol of Kryta.

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

Excuse me? Did you say that the races are essentially equal at least at the start of the events of GW2 the game? Seriously?

Yes. I DO believe that the 5 races are more or less equal in the current lore setting.

1. The Asura are on the top of the heap when it comes to technology and their monopoly on the Asura gates, but they have no real military force to speak of. The Peacemakers are primarily a police force, not an army, while the Arcane Eye is equivalent to special ops that handle sensitive matters for the Council. Their race as a whole is heavily dependent on golems to handle much of their heavy lifting and security, and many events in the game show that golems are far from completely reliable servants.

As a race, they are also largely hampered by the fact that individual krewes do not really cooperate with each other, and the largest (and arguably most effective) krewe, the Inquest, is regarded as a dangerous quasi-terrorist group. They would struggle to put up a united front in the face of a serious threat. As Vekk once says back in EotN, “get 3 Asura in a room and you get 4 opinions”.

2. The Sylvari are extremely new to the scene. Their numbers are likely nowhere near as numerous as the other races. They can be found everywhere in Tyria, but they are not the majority anywhere except in the Grove. They also have no real primary industry, selling mostly niche goods. Individual sylvari artisans or workers might be in high demand, but as a race they do not have a stranglehold over a particular trade like the other races.

Like the Asura, they also have no real military force to speak of; the Wardens are concerned primarily with protecting the Grove and their small number of outposts from the Nightmare Court (which I’ve been told accounts for up to 15% of all Sylvari), their biggest threat aside from the dragons and their minions.

3. The Norn are perhaps the least powerful race when taken as a nation. They are highly individualistic, and do not seem to be especially populous. They do not have a cohesive military force; the typical mentality of a Norn when confronted with a threat potentially too big for him to handle is “HAH! This will just make my legend greater!” They don’t even really have a true leader. Knut Whitebear is one of the most well-respected Norn around, but his authority basically doesn’t extend past Hoelbrak. Other Norn outside of Hoelbrak do as they please.

A single Norn might be a force to be reckoned with, but they lack the kind of unity and cooperation that gives the other races such influence in the world.

4. The Charr are the only other race that have the sense of unity and cooperation necessary to achieve world dominance. They also have a huge advantage in their advances in mass production and black powder technology, but even they have their problems. The Flame Legion is an ever-present threat, as are the ghosts of Ascalon and now the Branded. There’s also the not-inconsequential threat of Renegades and Ogres (I doubt the Grawl have the organisation to really be a threat to the Charr).

5. Finally, the Humans. Despite appearances, they still control considerable areas of land, much of which is excellent farming land. That likely means they are the biggest food producers in Tyria, which gives them considerable economic clout.

Their biggest enemies right now are the Centaurs and the Bandits, and the latter is primarily a self-inflicted problem. The storyline makes it clear that the Bandits are largely funded by elements within the Ministry that may have ties back to the White Mantle. Minister Caudecus is their leader (or at least a significant figure within their ranks), and the events of the CM Story Mode make it clear that he’s now largely neutralised. Meanwhile, the players can strike significant blows against the Centaur forces as part of the Ulgoth world boss chain. (Were it not for the fact that it were a repeating event, it might actually signal the collapse of the Centaur war effort, since the Modniir were the real drivers behind the war.)

Were it not for Scarlet’s attack on Divinity’s Reach, I’d say that the events of the game show Humans conquering or gaining the upper hand against their two biggest threats, leaving them poised to start solidifying their position and strengthening their power base.

Zaxares.5419:

Plus a small side argument between me and CETheLucid about Pyre Fierceshot.

Eh? Wha? Come on. Don’t do that to me man. An argument requires I keep going back and forth with you on stuff.

I wanna be content to write off this thread as a guilty pleasure. :P

I think Pyre was a decent guy charr-wise, absolutely extraordinary given the time period. You don’t. We agree on some things and disagree on others.

Your arguments and reasons are your own and I’ve laid out why I think the way that I do.

I don’t push things much further than that unless I read something that grabs my interest or an interesting thought occurs to me about this or that.

Pretty much everything that can be said about this topic has been said, multiple times. This thread derailed long ago.

We’re cruising along on tangents now. Can’t say it isn’t interesting, I still check the topic from time to time.

I respect your thoughts, and moreover I’m with you and Tobias on most things Nicholas related. He’s been a bad troll for 5+ pages… and that’s lowballing it.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I don’t know what the argument is. He is awesome and brings great honor to rangers by being one.

. . . also, he could totally take Rytlock in a fight.

Agreed!

We know Logan’s obviously a descendant of Gwen, and the fact that Steve Blum does Pyre… I’d totally bet Rytlock is a descendent of Pyre. It would just be beautifully ironic.

New tangent! Discuss!

Nicholas? I trust you can provide commentary on how this theory is inevitably weakening humanity? Don’t fail me now, soldier!

CETheLucid.3964:

Agreed!

We know Logan’s obviously a descendant of Gwen, and the fact that Steve Blum does Pyre… I’d totally bet Rytlock is a descendent of Pyre. It would just be beautifully ironic.

New tangent! Discuss!

Nicholas? I trust you can provide commentary on how this theory is inevitably weakening humanity? Don’t fail me now, soldier!

Not having Steve Blum voice a human means we are automatically that much weaker until we can get Crispin Freeman.

CETheLucid.3964:

We know Logan’s obviously a descendant of Gwen, and the fact that Steve Blum does Pyre… I’d totally bet Rytlock is a descendent of Pyre. It would just be beautifully ironic.

New tangent! Discuss!

Nicholas? I trust you can provide commentary on how this theory is inevitably weakening humanity? Don’t fail me now, soldier!

Lol, lmao. I have nothing against Pyre he’s a respected honorary “human” aka Charr. And Lore wise he is just as likely be a decendant of any of the prominent Charr of that era.

Logan however? seriously he’s written as a social buffoon. He may know a thing or two about swinging a sword but when the day is done, he can’t stop tripping over his own boots to save his life. And he seems to have forgotten that he is a human from Ascalon and more specifically that his home town is actually Ebonhawke, NOT Divinity’s Reach.

So yes his character – or actually lack of it – does in a small way weaken humanity…….

I think Logan Thackeray need to look up Ellen Kiel, get to know her and get on with it for real. And forget about HRH Jennah.

But first he has to work out that Jennah and Countess Anise are using him to hide their true “friendship” – romantic relationship…..

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

Logan however? seriously he’s written as a social buffoon. He may know a thing or two about swinging a sword but when the day is done, he can’t stop tripping over his own boots to save his life. And he seems to have forgotten that he is a human from Ascalon and more specifically that his home town is actually Ebonhawke, NOT Divinity’s Reach.

So yes his character – or actually lack of it – does in a small way weaken humanity…….

Actually, he isn’t from Ascalol. He simply worked for Ebonhawke as a merc.

He’s descended from gwen yes, but his brother joined the Seraph when Logan was a boy, and Logan became a scout-for-hire working with ebonhawke.

CETheLucid.3964:

Eh? Wha? Come on. Don’t do that to me man. An argument requires I keep going back and forth with you on stuff.

I wanna be content to write off this thread as a guilty pleasure. :P

I think Pyre was a decent guy charr-wise, absolutely extraordinary given the time period. You don’t. We agree on some things and disagree on others.

Your arguments and reasons are your own and I’ve laid out why I think the way that I do.

See, this is how people can come to understandings despite being on opposite positions. I agree with you that Pyre did some extraordinary things in his time; my feelings on him notwithstanding, there’s no denying the impact he had on Charr history.

We’ve said our pieces, and there’s really not much more to add. Pyre did what he did, and the only person who really knows what his motivations were is himself. At the end of the day, any speculation about it is purely academic in nature.

CETheLucid.3964:

We know Logan’s obviously a descendant of Gwen, and the fact that Steve Blum does Pyre… I’d totally bet Rytlock is a descendent of Pyre. It would just be beautifully ironic.

Mmm, I don’t know. Wasn’t there an NPC in GW2 who claimed descent from Kalla Scorchrazor? I don’t remember much details, but I do seem to recall an NPC mentioning it. If Rytlock was indeed descended from Pyre, I’d have thought more people would have mentioned it.

@Nicholas: Out of curiosity, what does the “HRH” in HRH Jennah stand for?

Zaxares.5419:

@Nicholas: Out of curiosity, what does the “HRH” in HRH Jennah stand for?

Her Royal Highness.

I’ve seen it from British friends before.

Ah! That makes sense. Thanks for clarifying.

Zaxares.5419:

I wanna be content to write off this thread as a guilty pleasure. :P

I think Pyre was a decent guy charr-wise, absolutely extraordinary given the time period. You don’t. We agree on some things and disagree on others.

Your arguments and reasons are your own and I’ve laid out why I think the way that I do.

See, this is how people can come to understandings despite being on opposite positions. I agree with you that Pyre did some extraordinary things in his time; my feelings on him notwithstanding, there’s no denying the impact he had on Charr history.

We’ve said our pieces, and there’s really not much more to add. Pyre did what he did, and the only person who really knows what his motivations were is himself. At the end of the day, any speculation about it is purely academic in nature.

@Nicholas: Out of curiosity, what does the “HRH” in HRH Jennah stand for?[/quote]

Yes I have enjoyed sparring with you and the others. But yes its true. Most points of contention have been addressed and dissected from enough angles and points of view. And so unless there are significant developments there is not much addition commentary that I may wish to add.

PS: as the “HRH” definition has been explained all good:)

I was going to respond to something earlier, but the thread evolved too far for me to be relevant anymore :o So I’ll just bring myself back to the original point of the article and say, I probably wouldn’t suggest trying to re-take Ascalon. It would just distract all the soldiers from protecting me from being nibbled on by dragons. Plus, people seem to be doing well enough in Kryta. And the Charr would probably be a lot harder to push out than last time.

Squee.7829:

And the Charr would probably be a lot harder to push out than last time.

Not really. All someone needs to do is get some herbalists to invent catnip. Then we’re all good.

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

Thus for Tyrian Humanity to truly prosper beyond it current circumstance it MUST have full and effective control of its only safe window to the world outside of Tyria. That window has a name. And its name is: Lion’s Arch.

Other races will not let Humans take this place because it’s the economic core of Tyria and they have interests in it too. Giving it to Humans is not acceptable because it’ll give Humans a strong grasp on the world economy and knowing how corrupt can be the Humans leaders, they’ll not tolerate it.

Lion’s Arch is like Suiss, a neutral place that other will defend to protect their interests.

Kulvar.1239:

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

Thus for Tyrian Humanity to truly prosper beyond it current circumstance it MUST have full and effective control of its only safe window to the world outside of Tyria. That window has a name. And its name is: Lion’s Arch.

Other races will not let Humans take this place because it’s the economic core of Tyria and they have interests in it too. Giving it to Humans is not acceptable because it’ll give Humans a strong grasp on the world economy and knowing how corrupt can be the Humans leaders, they’ll not tolerate it.

Lion’s Arch is like Suiss, a neutral place that other will defend to protect their interests.

. . . Switzerland can, in fact, defend itself. It did for a long time until people gave up trying because it meant a lot of problems trying to do it.

Kulvar.1239:

Other races will not let Humans take this place because it’s the economic core of Tyria and they have interests in it too. Giving it to Humans is not acceptable because it’ll give Humans a strong grasp on the world economy and knowing how corrupt can be the Humans leaders, they’ll not tolerate it.

Lion’s Arch is like Suiss, a neutral place that other will defend to protect their interests.

Give Lion’s Arch to Kryta? Human leaders might become corrupt as a result? Says who? Where is your evidence that Human leaders are more likely than leaders of other race to become such.

Firstly, Lion’s Arch was the traditional and original capital of Human Kryta. Secondly please read the Lore. Thridly please read my previous post in this very extended thread. As I have covered may issues and details concerning this.

However it is enough to say that Lion’s Arch as stolen by the pirate cartel using stolen Krytan gold from the wreaked Krytan vessel – Salma’s Grace. This gold paid for the cartel’s massive military muscle – including a navy that could best at that time a much weaken Kryta (Orrian Catalysm – seriously read up on the Lore!!!!). This fact was hidden and undiscovered by the Shining Blade and the Order of Whispers – for reasons I doubt Arenanet want to articulate!

And finally yes the re-annexation of Lion’s Arch – Kryta’s former capital, former main city, former main southern port and sea link to Cantha and Elona – will give an obvious massive economic boost to its National wealth and prestige – power enough to leverage towards building a miltary force(Army, Navy & Air Force) that would rival even the Charr.

But of course no race is even allowed to even be competitive to the Charr in real terms. And definitely not heaven forbid equal to them!!! Most know this to be truth undeniable LOL!

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

Give Lion’s Arch to Kryta? Human leaders might become corrupt as a result? Says who? Where is your evidence that Human leaders are more likely than leaders of other race to become such.

Vizier Khilbron, King Adelbern, Confessor Dorian, Confessor Isiah, Varesh Ossa. Just off the top of my head. While we have more than a few examples of other races having decent leadership in line with their racial tendencies (i.e., norn don’t have a unified leader, asura rule through council which is corrupt only in the sense all asura are evil and need to die in fire and agony).

Firstly, Lion’s Arch was the traditional and original capital of Human Kryta. Secondly please read the Lore. Thridly please read my previous post in this very extended thread. As I have covered may issues and details concerning this.

But Lion’s Arch is no longer the human capital of Kryta, it is a hub where more than five races came together and managed not to kill each other off. And thus it remains, even though it’s in ruins and tatters, a place where everyone can feel welcomed. (Except maybe sylvari, but that’s hardly restricted to LA.)

However it is enough to say that Lion’s Arch as stolen by the pirate cartel using stolen Krytan gold from the wreaked Krytan vessel – Salma’s Grace. This gold paid for the cartel’s massive military muscle – including a navy that could best at that time a much weaken Kryta (Orrian Catalysm – seriously read up on the Lore!!!!). This fact was hidden and undiscovered by the Shining Blade and the Order of Whispers – for reasons I doubt Arenanet want to articulate!

Citation requested.

And finally yes the re-annexation of Lion’s Arch – Kryta’s former capital, main city, main southern port, and sea link to Cantha and Elona – will give an obvious massive economic boost to its National wealth and prestige – power enough to leverage towards building a miltary force(Army, Navy & Air Force) that would rival even the Charr.

I doubt it would.

See, first humanity would take it and have to hold it . . . and then it would find out Cantha doesn’t accept anyone coming close to them, Elona is ruled by an undead warlord who is not really an approachable chap, and there’s this giant sea dragon munching vessels.

I see you forgot the lore yourself.

But of course no race is even allowed to even be competitive to the Charr in real terms. And definitely not heaven forbid equal to them!!! Most know this to be truth undeniable LOL!

Oh please. Norn are equal toe to toe with charr in a battle, and unless charr devoted a significantly larger force to an invasion they’d be repelled. The asura and the sylvari are well outside their striking distance without considerable use of asura gates or Pact air power (things which aren’t going to be given or taken easily, if at all). And if they moved on humanity they’d have to move through or around the Shiverpeaks (still) or settle for Ebonhawke. A stronghold they cannot break with siege weapons and has terrain which renders numerical advantages moot.

And that’s assuming they don’t have other enemies who would gladly take advantage of the war machine going full-tilt out of their lands. I’ll take bets the Flame Legion isn’t destroyed by the death of Baelfire . . .

The charr cannot, currently, exert force on the other races.