Guild Wars 2

A) Different staff, direction, goals, gameplay, etc, infiniti. Realistically it’s not even the same company. If the game itself doesn’t convince you of that, the volumes of posts on these forums are evidence enough. You simply can’t argue the two games are comparable, much less compatible.
B) That affects the survivability of Ascalon yes, but not of their sovereignty.
C) The White Mantle are puppets of the Mursaat. They would go wherever they were told to go. If the Mursaat themselves can “hike” to the Southern Shivs and the Ring of Fire, I’m preeeeetty sure the Mantle can to. No one questioned them in Kryta cuz they just saved everyone’s kitten from the Charr invasion…way too soon to question your saviors. The first time we hear about them causing trouble is halfway through Maguuma. If you read and look closely at all the little dialogues and events in Proph in Kryta, you can see the author leaves you little breadcrumbs of doubt to follow. We just never get the chance to do anything about it until WiK because the Proph storyline didn’t go back there.
D) Beyond is GW2. The very first line in the description says: Guild Wars Beyond is a series of storylines and events in Guild Wars that helps set the stage for Guild Wars 2. It doesn’t get much more overt than that, Kal.

Joining the fight for Ascalon to me can also be seen as the battle to re-igniting the human spirit of advancing the interest of humanity as a whole in Tyria. This duty can be actioned in more ways than on a battleground.

Research and Development (R&D) has always been key to success of any given civilisation. And a major part of R&D is the application of it. So one question could validly be what has been done with the human Watch-knight technology last seen in the passages of the “Living Story” at the (Krytan+ Human Ascalonian) Queen’s Jubilee?

Refinement of that technology would have almost limitless possibilities – both military and civilian. Also since the Dragonbrand and the left-over artifacts from the Searing remain in the environment has any new knowledge been gained by the human mages in their research? Are they even organised in a arcane/magicial/scientific association separate from the Priory? And if not why not?

The attaining of new knowledge could greatly aid humanity and Tyria as a whole – at least as much as on-battlefield fighting.

I agree that the Watchknight technology holds great potential. However, a key factor lies in just how they are manufactured. We haven’t seen any large-scale production facilities like the factories and forges the Charr have, which makes it likely that the Watchknights were made by artisans. This usually means they are of great quality, but are time-consuming and slow to make. In time-sensitive situations such as war theatres, it could mean that damaged or destroyed Watchknights might be renewed too slowly for them to make a big difference on the battlefield. (Unless each Watchknight was something on the scale of Scarlet’s Assault Knights, able to take on dozens of opponents at a time.)

I’ve recently completed Season Two: Gates of Maguuma (Ep.1) and Entanglement (Ep.2) as well as the Personal Story/Living Story content as many have. And it seems that Humanity relevance in the GW2 is primarily based on their historical importance.

Humanity are mostly passengers in the living lore. Any plot detail that is directly of human relevance is quickly discarded(Watchknights) and/or ignored(Logan Thackeray, HRH Jennah, Ellen Kiel). At best like Kiel has been mentioned and maybe Queen Jennah.

While its true that they have their own lives and duties to get on with – they have been absent from the plot too long now. The plot is too Sylvari /Asura centric and there is currently little to no reason to be interested in Humanity, The Norn or the Charr in terms of being plot drivers as a people – outside of the Personal Story.

I believe there needs to be a significant rebalancing of the direction of the Living Story of GW2 Lore.

The Watchknights weren’t even a human thing, they were derived from Scarlet’s steam creature designs . . . which is how she co-opted them with root user access so quickly.

Given it looks like this “chapter” is the sylvari’s time to get hit like a punching bag instead of humanity? I’m surprised you’re not in favor of this.

Erm.. Ellen Kiel is a member of the Captain’s council, her place is in LA.

So why would she be relevant to storylines taking place in the Maguuma wastes?

Just like if the storyline was taking place in Ascalon, it’d be likely human/charr focused and we’d see less Asura aspects.. it’s just reasonable…

So, on the approaching chapter . . .

Do we still have to fight for it if the ghosts wind up put to rest?

If the ghosts truly are put to rest (which I doubt they will), then I think a whole new bunch of land just landed on the list of things to be considered in the Charr-Human peace treaty.

Zaxares.5419:

If the ghosts truly are put to rest (which I doubt they will), then I think a whole new bunch of land just landed on the list of things to be considered in the Charr-Human peace treaty.

I say we take all the spots in trebuchet distance of the Black Citadel. You know, to defend our new uneasy allies in Ascalon. Also, we can hire some asura to help improve things a bit.

There are at this stage too few details as to what the full effect of Rylock’s action might be. But it would pull the stories of Destiny’s Edge and the new group together. But taking in all the other scenes in that short clip on board it seems likely that the world of Tyria is now suddenly potentially more explosive than when Scarlet was around. Because at least then everyone was on the same page.

Now literally nothing of the fabric of Tyrian stability is assured. And it seems likely that Rylock’s action may have played an important part it helping start this coming “bomb- crater” of a geo-political situation.

What can be said will certainty is that the “Dragon’s Reach” clip promises much…..

I’m not opposed to reigniting the war between humans and charr but I wouldn’t participate, I don’t really care one way or the other but it would be nice to see the fireworks.

Out of character, in the current state of events it wouldn’t really make sense to start something like that.

In character wise, both of the human characters I have fleshed out believe that there are greater concerns in the world than a piece of land. Concerns that could lose them everything. Ascalon ain’t worth the rest of Kryta.

TheRyftLord.5820:

Out of character, in the current state of events it wouldn’t really make sense to start something like that.

In character wise, both of the human characters I have fleshed out believe that there are greater concerns in the world than a piece of land. Concerns that could lose them everything. Ascalon ain’t worth the rest of Kryta.

“…the rest of…”?

Ascalon isn’t Kryta, it is its own people and place.

For my human characters in RP the war against the Charr has never stopped – its only gone underground. Using the Orges as allies – among others.

Further the so called “Separatists” are actually covert operatives of the Ebon Vanguard. With no “official” ties to the regular chain of command to hide their true allegiance – “For Ascalon”, for Freedom.

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

For my human characters in RP the war against the Charr has never stopped – its only gone underground. Using the Orges as allies – among others.

Further the so called “Separatists” are actually covert operatives of the Ebon Vanguard. With no “official” ties to the regular chain of command to hide their true allegiance – “For Ascalon”, for Freedom.

Interesting view, I sort of like it.

For human characters in RP which I play, Elona never fell to Palawa Joko and Cantha still communicates to some of them with very very clandestine letter drops.

Furthermore, Miyani is obviously not a real Sunspear and is just spying for Palawa Joko, using the Mystic Forge to fund his doomed front against humanity in Elona.

Headcannon is wonderfully fun sometimes

The only headcanon I toy with sometimes mainly has the dragons much more on the offense, and LA is rebuilt (end of PS timeframe, before scarlets stuff) as a fortress :P.

My headcanon is frequently not safe for the forums.

Why would there have to be a war?
Aside the fact that the ruins of Rin are in the Black Citadel.
Is it not plausable, especially with Rytlock’s newest plot twist of ending the Ascalonian curse, that in the future, the charr might just be willing to share their land without a fight? Supposing that there can be an agreement with rights, privelages, and whatnot of the land. Maybe something like the Captain’s Council of Lion’s Arch governing it, but made of equal parts of Ash, Blood, and Iron Legions as well as Humans?

Could be a dynamic in the future, I guess. Like the Luxon/Kurzick conflict of Factions. Battling in a WvW/Competitive Mission type side-area for control of Ascalon and the surrounding areas…

Zaxares.5419:

My headcanon is frequently not safe for the forums.

Can you give an example of headcanon that is actually safe for the forums?

Darkbattlemage.9612:

Zaxares.5419:

My headcanon is frequently not safe for the forums.

Can you give an example of headcanon that is actually safe for the forums?

“My headcanon is super lazy, I just go with the regular canon”

Done.

Darkbattlemage.9612:

Zaxares.5419:

My headcanon is frequently not safe for the forums.

Can you give an example of headcanon that is actually safe for the forums?

I could give several, though that’s unfortunately so far off topic . . . well, except for one.

“The reason Rytlock won’t succeed in uncursing Ascalon is because his sword isn’t the real one but a very convincing copy. The reason he doesn’t say where he got it is because he bought it off an asuran peddler.”

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Darkbattlemage.9612:

Zaxares.5419:

My headcanon is frequently not safe for the forums.

Can you give an example of headcanon that is actually safe for the forums?

I could give several, though that’s unfortunately so far off topic . . . well, except for one.

“The reason Rytlock won’t succeed in uncursing Ascalon is because his sword isn’t the real one but a very convincing copy. The reason he doesn’t say where he got it is because he bought it off an asuran peddler.”

“Whatever you do don’t tell Logan. Taunting him is fun.”

This is a human favouring space, in my understanding. And Logan is essentially along side Delaqua(s?), Kasmeer and Kiel is one of the leading human champions – on active duty in the field.

“Taunting” him is not acceptable without it being a formal challenge – to the death.

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

This is a human favouring space, in my understanding. And Logan is essentially along side Delaqua(s?), Kasmeer and Kiel is one of the leading human champions – on active duty in the field.

“Taunting” him is not acceptable without it being a formal challenge – to the death.

It already was done to the death.

Belinda’s.

personally no in gw2 time i would not fight to reclaim ascalon, i quite like the unexpected allies scenario and besides i would rather be fighting the white mantle.

yea i would just cuz i played Gw1, but if i did my main human guard and char engineer would end up killing each other at the top of the black citadel :[

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

The Watchknights weren’t even a human thing, they were derived from Scarlet’s steam creature designs . . . which is how she co-opted them with root user access so quickly.

Would just like to speak up on this bit: The Watchwork Knights are human in origin. Humanity made those with no direct assistance from Scarlet or the other races.

It can certainly be argued that the nature of the Watchwork Knights mechanics borrows heavily from Charr engineering in combination with steam creature tech.

In this regard, humanity beat the asura to that punch. An asuran emissary Vorpp comments as much in this regard.

The Watchknights are like asuran golems, but different.

They can change their form with illusion magic and the way they’re controlled is very different from traditional asuran golems.

Slightly similar to the steam creatures (which they are based), which would explain Scarlet gaining root access since she’s an expert on these creatures.

It’s known she was able to eventually build her own and even master their portal technology. But the steam creatures aren’t unique to Scarlet.

They existed before her time.

This goes back to the infinity ball creator and the paradox created when they killed their future self.

Sooo… we have a reality that technically should not exist, leaking steam creatures with an ability to learn.

A crazy sylvari who made more of them, keeping the tech alive and mucking with these steam/aetheric portals that have an ultimate origin to a despotic/non-existent future…

Where an evil version of a synergetics asura PC is dead, and a Grand Vice Admiral Shodd can’t seem to reasonably control the creatures.

Back to our time line: Humanity apparently has it figured out and with any luck, we fixed the backdoor Scarlet exposed.

Humanity had another Jubilee with tons of the watchknights in action and nothing went awry.

The inner workings borrow from charr engineering shared with us and steam creature salvage from a reality paradox due to an asura mucking with the fabric of time and space.

Our take on it is unique at any rate both in design and how the watchknight actually works. This is uniquely human.

They are markedly different from a charr machine, an asuran golem, or even a steam creature.

Humanity proves itself very effective tinkerers and tweakers. We learn well. We’ve emulated charr metalworking and essentially improved on asuran magitech.

We owe the actual eureka moment for metalwork and golem tech to both the charr and the asura.

Still. Not too bad for a race that’s assumed by some to be on it’s way out.

I really do wonder what is the power source for the Watchknights though. Their construction seems to imply they operate off watchwork (i.e. wind-up) technology, but that can’t be efficient having your elite troops needing to get wound-up every single day. Their ability to disguise themselves as different forms might just be illusions laid on them by spellcasters, and not an innate ability to the Watchknights themselves.

Zaxares.5419:

I really do wonder what is the power source for the Watchknights though. Their construction seems to imply they operate off watchwork (i.e. wind-up) technology, but that can’t be efficient having your elite troops needing to get wound-up every single day. Their ability to disguise themselves as different forms might just be illusions laid on them by spellcasters, and not an innate ability to the Watchknights themselves.

While humanity isn’t keen on sharing the specifics, I imagine it’s a combination of early charr clockwork (before they went full steampunk) with a secondary propulsion system of magitech powered by illusion/chaos magic.

Ergo eliminating the need for constant winding and the ability to appear as different forms. Humanity seems to have a reserve of powerful illusion and chaos magi.

Absent a powerful mesmer or magic source, I imagine watchknights can also go strictly clockwork with the caveat that they do have a wind-up downtime with this mechanic.

Charr machines tend to be strictly mechanical and asura golems tend to be purely magitech. Humanity has made something of a hybrid in the watchknights.

I’d say we’ve seen both types of modes in action.

The giant marionette needed to be manually controlled, while the smaller assault knights worked on magitech system very unlike the illusion bots we fought in the Jubilee.

Though that appears as an upgrade on Scarlet’s part, seeing as they go by the prefixes of the asura colleges of magic.

Perhaps it’s an ability the watchknights already had? Who can say? I doubt humanity (or the asura should they be involved) want to reveal that just yet.

Maybe we’re working closer with the asura than most people know. That’s a stretch though.

Many asura think too much of themselves to think humanity has anything valuable to offer, though certainly not all asura are like that.

Likewise with the charr. We couldn’t have thought to make these knights without charr metalworking know how. We’d still be using the trebs from GW1.

I doubt the charr have given away all their trade secrets.

For our emulation, the watchknights aren’t on the level of tough that charr routinely produce in their current designs.

Still, we’ve come leaps and bounds thanks to these gifts in knowledge.

If humanity can produce watchknights wholesale (as they prove they can in these Jubilees we often have!) and specialized assault and giant marionette versions…

As in if this were something already in the plans and not something custom done by Scarlet…

That’s even more impressive on humanity. And raises a ton of interesting questions.

I mean for most who are in the know, there is a secret Arcane Eye base in the human village of Garenhoff there is crazy wizard out in the human village of Garenhoff…

Humanity is expanding exponentially in innovation.

In no small part thanks to the charr and the asura, but we’ve taken what we’ve learned and created something new with it.

It’s certainly not gone unnoticed.

. . .wait, we’re at 1k posts and counting. And not even on topic half the time.

Can we bury this? Start talking about something else, like the benefits of charr-hide rugs or how to drink norn under the table?

Dave.1534:

If Queen Jennah suddenly waged war against the Charr to reclaim Ascalon, would you resist or fight for the cause?

(and of course discuss on ‘why’)

Personally I would. Ever since the searing happened in GW1 I yearned for revenge but never really got it :/

Absolutely I would fight.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

. . .wait, we’re at 1k posts and counting. And not even on topic half the time.

Can we bury this? Start talking about something else, like the benefits of charr-hide rugs or how to drink norn under the table?

I pointed that out paaages ago man. When in rome. Besides, it get’s my thinking cap on about the lore sometimes.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Can we bury this? Start talking about something else, like the benefits of charr-hide rugs or how to drink norn under the table?

Oh those are easy, well for an Asura anyways. Against Elder Dragons Charr-hide is as useless as using a spoon as a melee weapon. How to drink a Norn under the table, simply either become a Norn or replace your stomach with one that can neutralize the effects of alcohol.

Nice thread!

I think I would fight for Ascalon. Though, this mainly derives from the fact that I see my human characters as descendants of Ascalon (due to GW1), and not of Krytan origin.

Come to think of it, it’s really a SHAME that they never provided the option upon character creation to choose your “ancestral line” of the sorts. E.g. choices between Krytan, Ascalonian, Cantha and the likes… Would’ve been cool.

Furesy.6935:

Nice thread!

I think I would fight for Ascalon. Though, this mainly derives from the fact that I see my human characters as descendants of Ascalon (due to GW1), and not of Krytan origin.

Come to think of it, it’s really a SHAME that they never provided the option upon character creation to choose your “ancestral line” of the sorts. E.g. choices between Krytan, Ascalonian, Cantha and the likes… Would’ve been cool.

I believe later in the human personal story you can choose your family heritage. You can pick between Krytan, Ascalonian, Canthan, Elonian, even Orrian.

I think the only thing it honestly effects is your sisters appearance in the missing sister bit of your PS, if you picked that one.

I’m drawing from memory though. It might do other things.

Yes, I would. And it would also do well for other human nations to heed the warning that was Orr and Ascalon. Only thanks to Mursaat did Kryta manage to escape the same fate. The Charr are murderous beasts, the carnage is in their blood, they are a nation of warriors and conquerors and they will not stop until everything is warfare and conquest. It’s not even a matter of good or evil, it’s just how the things are. You can’t make a cat out of a tiger, one day or the other even a domesticated tiger will remember its instincts and maim the nearest human given an excuse. There can never be peace or understanding between Charr and Mankind. They tried to wipe us out once, they will try it again, and this time it will be even easier. And they stopped at nothing to accomplish that goal, they even submit to the will of the titans just to be able to get at the humans. If it weren’t for the bargain of the titans and the shaman caste, the Charr would have still been throwing themselves at the wall of Ascalon today. The shaman caste Charr disowned so cruelly after it earned them a sizable chunk of land.

A soft jingle fills the air as Rhea Brassmirror straightens her rich purple skirts and its brazen adornments . She slowly shakes her head.

“No. I would not fight one of our most powerful allies in our struggle against the elder dragons over thoughts of petty revenge. I was born and raised in Kryta, not in Ascalon and for Kryta I will fight – Against the one threat looming over us all: elder Dragons.

I joined the vigil to achieve this and I fought side by side with charr who I deem more valorous than many humans I’ve met. Charr who are willing to give their lives for Tyrias peoples, be it charr, human or asura.
I’ve been to Ebonhawke, to the fields of ruin. I witnessed our efforts to establish a treaty and the attempts of nationalist forces, human and charr alike, to sabotage these efforts. Our goal is to unite Tyria and fight the dragons and I will kill anyone, be it charr or human, who works against us.

What would we do anyway with that barren land? It’s charr homeland now, as Kryta is our homeland, together we stand the slightest chance of overcoming the dragons, divided we will be devoured, one after another.

And I don’t plan to let that happen."

With a bright flash and the sharp, short noise of shattered glass she disappears.

Eventhough all my Human characters have Ascalonian roots, they will not fight a war to reclaim Ascalon.

We fought long enough and for what? Some small piece of land? War ain’t going to solve anything and let’s not forget we have a common foe. A foe that dangers not only Ascalon, but all of Tyria.
These last years, my characters learned about the Charr Culture and History and came to an understanding of why the Searing took place for example and what made the High Legions as they are this day.
We already exchanged some culture between Humans and Charr on ‘neutral’ ground (Lion’s Arch for example), but with this treaty, we can do so much more for each other.
My Engineer would love to learn about the technology of the Iron Legion to aid both sides in defeating the greatest threats to Tyria: the Elder Dragons.

I support the treaty and I shall protect it, no matter what. To those who oppose, may they be Human, Charr, or anything else, I shall fight back till the end.

you could try, just remember what happened the last time you tried fighting Charr… :P
Cow/Cat hybrid FTW!!!!1111

AngelDiscarnate.5489:

Why would there have to be a war?
Aside the fact that the ruins of Rin are in the Black Citadel.
Is it not plausable, especially with Rytlock’s newest plot twist of ending the Ascalonian curse, that in the future, the charr might just be willing to share their land without a fight? Supposing that there can be an agreement with rights, privelages, and whatnot of the land. Maybe something like the Captain’s Council of Lion’s Arch governing it, but made of equal parts of Ash, Blood, and Iron Legions as well as Humans?

Could be a dynamic in the future, I guess. Like the Luxon/Kurzick conflict of Factions. Battling in a WvW/Competitive Mission type side-area for control of Ascalon and the surrounding areas…

Strictly speaking, Ash and Blood have no authority in Ascalon apart from that granted to them by the Iron authorities to assist in some matter. The land formerly known as Ascalon is Iron Legion land specifically.

That said, Smodur has been fairly generous with the truce talks so far. I have a suspicion that Smodur genuinely wants to bury the hatchet and essentially bring ‘honorary legion’ status to Ebonhawke and Kryta. Bringing humans into the alliance would be turning the greatest military rivals of the charr into allies, which among other benefits would compensate for the loss of Flame Legion magic with human magic.

Anyway, to return to the OT since I’m finally stepping into this thread…

Lothar responds to the questioner with a flat stare. “Depends on who was stupid enough to pick the fight. While I can’t condone the Searing, the charr who were responsible for that are long dead, and if we were to launch an invasion to massacre or dispossess charr who are only living in the land they’ve lived in all their lives out of a twisted sense of vengeance, we’d be no better than their ancestors were. If the charr were to throw away the treaty because they decide peace is no longer convenient for them and the urge to fight against everyone else is just too strong for them to control… then they’re a threat not just to humanity than to Tyria as a whole, and should be treated accordingly. If it’s some jingoistic morons on our side that start the fight, then I’m quite happy to let them dig their own graves on their own, or even accelerate the process if doing so might serve to restore a peace. And if the peace breaks down due to equal amounts of stupidity on both sides… then there are more important things than the idiots of two races killing each other off. Maybe when the hotheads have weeded enough of one another out we’ll be able to have another go at finding a permanent solution. Because in the long run, I don’t think genocide is a viable solution for either side.”

drax

Interesting, and well-written, rp quip.

It still rather condoning of selective narratives though. It’s almost as if ANet purposely let the “old, barbaric Charr” conquer Ascalon only to immediately “civilize” them, grant them 9/10’s ownership, and then actually berate their own ancestors just to provide moral plausibility to them being there in the first place.

It’s kind of like if Germany had suddenly stopped fighting after taking over mainland Europe(with the purpose of keeping indefinitely) and saying, with humble aplomb:
“Here, Here! We don’t want to fight anymore!?! Killing is barbaric and cruel!! For goodness sake, let us be friends now…and be at peace.”

/eyerolls

I don’t think anybody’s condoning the actions of the historical Charr. Even modern day Charr who believe Ascalon is their land by right generally do think their ancestors went too far (although just like real life humans, they get their hackles up if you accuse them about it because it feels like a personal attack).

The thing is, at some point both sides have to agree to let bygones be bygones and start anew, otherwise the hostility and hatred will never die. One side or the other will feel that they have been oppressed, and continue the cycle of revenge attacks ad infinitum. It’s a bit like the situation in the Middle East between Israel and Palestine. Both sides are refusing to back down, both sides refuse to co-exist with the other, which means that they’re doomed to keep on attacking each other until one or the other is completely exterminated.

While it may seem ‘immediate’ to us because we’ve gone straight from GW1 to GW2, keep in mind that for the people of Tyria, the Searing happened generations ago. In that time, the charr overthrew the faction most responsible for the Searing, (re-)instituted a more equitable gender policy, started an industrial revolution and, possibly most importantly, began developing meaningful economic relationships with non-charr factions such as the norn, asura, and multiracial Lion’s Arch. Substantial shifts in political relationships in real-world history have happened on shorter timescales – for instance, looking at the Western Europe example, the build-up to World War 1 broke a traditional Anglo-Prussian alliance that had held (usually against France, and with one blip during the Napoleonic wars) since the formation of Prussia as a nation, while also reversing an Anglo-French rivalry that had its ultimate origins in the Norman Conquest. A few decades later, rapprochement between West Germany and France after World War 2 ended the French-German enmity that had its roots in the 1600s when the French initially took over Alsace and Lorraine.

The German example is also noteworthy in that in the actual history, Russia forced a lot of people movement in eastern Europe – moving Poles from what had been eastern Poland (and annexed by Russia) into what had been eastern Germany, and Germans in what had been eastern Germany further west still… or east, indentured into forced labour (read: slavery) as unilateral ‘war reparations’. Today, no serious political group is suggesting reversing that. It was an injustice when it happened, but to force the people who are living there now out in order to replace them with the descendents of the original population would be an equal injustice, and two wrongs don’t make a right.

To put it bluntly: A dusty twelve-century-old claim was NOT justification for the Searing and the invasion of Ascalon. However, by the same metric, a two and a half century old claim would not be justification for humans to invade Ascalon now, even if the military balance of power between humans and charr shifted enough for such an invasion to be viable. When a territory has only been occupied for a few years, it might be morally justified to reclaim it for its former owners, but when it’s been occupied for generations, then at some point the only morally just thing to do is to let bygones be bygones and build a peace from the way things are.

And in this, I apply the exact same metric to condemn any claim that the Searing was morally justified.

Nice post Mr. draxynnic. I generally agree. Interesting to read your comments about german history, being german. A good friend of mine is polish and when we met she was of the opinion that Germany wants to retake the territories lost after the second world war and that germans are all eager for a revanche. That thought astonished me. It could not be further from the truth.

My ingame human characters don’t agree with you. Not that they want to start a war against the Charr, but it is too early to forgive them. Too early to forget their atrocities, too early to forget that they laid siege to Ebonhawke till not so long ago. That they only recently freed human slaves. They have yet to prove that they are willing to have peace, and you know that it is likely that they will turn into the aggressor again, as they have been for 1250 years.

Even ingame Charr agression against humanity only ended a short time ago. The Charr are not to be measured by human standards, and that makes them that dangerous. It also means that human morality does not apply to them and that therefore it is up to them to show that they should be treated by human moral standards by humanity. Which means that my ingame human characters have no problem with killing Charr, or waging war against them should they attack again.

The burden of proving that they are capable of behaving in a civilized manner lies with the Charr. And i am sure that they will fail at that.

To hello with that Queen Jennah…

…if there wasn’t a bigger threat, the Dragons, I would gladly fight the Charr off our homeland. I believe that deep inside me I am a separatist and I feel more comfortable in Ebonhawk and roaming Ascalon.

You can probably blame Cold War politics, and to a lesser extent West German internal politics immediately postwar, for that. Adenauer kept up revanchist rhetoric through his term to keep the exile lobby happy and avoid looking like a puppet of the Western Allies, even though his goal was to integrate Germany into the West. Meanwhile, the Communists used fear of German revanchism towards Poland throughout the Cold War as a justification for the Soviet Union’s ‘protection’.

On the whole, with the EU, NATO, and the generally slowly growing political unification of Europe, where the borders happen to lie is mattering less and less – and the impression I get from my admittedly distant geographical location is that this is pretty much the typical attitude in Germany. Who cares about the specific borders of a state that’s existed for less than two centuries when you can build an overarching political entity that covers everything that has ever been German (except Konigsberg/Kaleningrad) and more?

Someone particularly cynical could argue that, given Germany’s influence in the EU, this is essentially backdoor German imperialism, but for all the EU’s problems it’s a much better route to European integration and unification than past attempts that should go unnamed.

To bring this back on-topic: I do have a feeling this may be what Smodur is aiming for. Unlike most of that 1250 years, modern charr have learned that they can have peaceful relationships with non-charr, starting with the norn. The truce could be a political expedient to close a front until the charr are ready to reopen it, or it could be part of a growing recognition among the charr that humans aren’t so different to the norn and asura that they already had working relationships with, and may in fact be closer to the charr than either in mindset (ironically, the war lasted so long due to their commonalities rather than their differences). It’s possible that Smodur may be aimed towards making the humans essentially reach the status of another legion among the charr legions – effectively replacing the Flame, and potentially an act that will bury the idea of Khan-Urship for the foreseeable future, as it draws into the alliance a group that was never under the Khan-Ur.

All that aside and moving back into character: “Yes, but on the other hand, they did lift the siege and free those prisoners, didn’t they? Maybe it’s a ploy, and of course we have to be wary of that, but maybe we’re seeing genuine signs of a change in attitude among the charr. Humans have done horrible things to both nonhumans and fellow humans alike, but I’d like to think that apart from a few criminals we’ve outgrown that… and maybe the charr can too. While of course we should be prepared for them to turn back to their old ways, as you say it’s up to them to show they can behave and should be treated according to our moral standards… shouldn’t we give them the opportunity to do so? After all, if we were to attack them when they were genuine about seeking a long-term peace, wouldn’t that make us the warmongering monsters we accuse the charr of being?”

Alright, long post incoming…

Your view of Adenauer is interesting, but i guess this is not the place for a discussion about that topic, at least not in-depth. Adenauer was called the “Chancellor of the Allies”, who saw a european unification as the way for the future. He pretty much set the course for german politics till today. I don’t see him as having used revanchist rhetorics, but it is known that under his government minor officials of the kitten regime were allowed to work again, which i cannot understand given how much Adenauer had always been an opponent of the Hitler regime. That’s the “reality” of politics i guess.

As much as i dislike politicians and the current german government, i also do not see them doing backdoor imperialism. But i started to wonder if it may be the case.
Merkel may think that her way of handling things in the EU is the “right” way though, a way i do not agree with. I do not want Germany to take a leading role in Europe, to prevent exactly that impression of german “backdoor imperialism”. I think that Germany should keep more in the backgrounds at times though, although as the currently strongest economy in Europe there may be no other choice.

On a sidenote, The EU is far less popular among germans than it may look from the outside. But our constitution does not allow to let the people decide directly. If asked i would vote for Germany to leave the EU, just out of spite for the government. And yes, i have been called an anarchist.

Now, back on topic. I think if Smodur tried to establish humanity as something like an “honorary legion” a civil war among the Charr (other than the current one against the Flame Legion) may become likely. Something like that is far in the future and most likely inacceptable to the majority of the Charr. And given the nature of dictatorships a successor to Smodur may very well go for a completely different course. So, i do not see a high chance for anything like “Smodur’s vision” happening in the forseeable future. I do think that the friendship between Logan and Rytlock will play an important role and can be seen as a model for development of Human-Charr relations, with all its ups and downs.

Moving back on character, my main character lost her parents to the Charr and is very unwilling to grant the Charr the chance to prove that they are capable of change. Distrust and old hatred runs too deep. Still, she grudgingly accepts reality and gives her support by holding back. She still kills Renegades and Flame Legion Charr with pleasure. And she fully expects the Charr to fall back into old habits eventually, but wishes it won’t come to that. If it does, she will fight.

My own personal point of view differs from this, and i can mostly agree with you. War is such a stupid thing, especially a war of aggression. Humanity seems to be on the way to outgrow its more violent tendencies (in GW2), the Charr would have to change their own society to follow down that path, which i do not see happening. Still, as you said, there may be signs.
For the sake of humanity i am willing to grant the Charr the chance to show that they can change (although a part of me does not like the idea. Been a GW1 player for too long i guess).
We may actually have to be thankful to the Elder Dragons to make it possible.

When it comes to the actual theme of the game then i do not see a new war happening between humanity and the Charr, given it is cooperation, friendship and overcoming old enmities. Should a crisis happen we will be given the chance to prevent the worst.

Humans home first, Charr home first; I don’t care. I killed thousands of those kittens while Death Leveling in Pre for years. Then many, many more once the daily quests came out. I have since grown a sick passion for killing Charr that rivals Gwens’. I’d love to wage another war on the Charr as even with those that we can kill in GW2, it’s just not the same when there’s a Charr Guardian right next to me helping.