Guild Wars 2

Instance suck in general. GW2 is about open world. People can come to events, learn new things, meet new people and work together and even overcome griefers and compensate for the real bad players that are still part of the community.

If you want an instance like with a larger guild just go to an overflow. There are enough that are empty quickly as famers and likes leave quickly. So no biggie to get your own instance if you really want to.

But as said GW2 is open world and it should stay this way. There are tons of players who do not want to join some larger guilds but prefer to meet new people and play together withthem and overcoming a challenge.

“LFG 15 condimancers, 10 guardians, 5 thieves, 120 zerker warriors, full ascended, gear check” is just bad for the game. It’s already hard to find players for existing instances as more experienced players stay to themselves. How are new people supposed to learn?

Yeah, I despise any kind of instances…

What I would like to see though, are 10-20 player dungeons, where they have to play coordinated…

What is more important: if you have a DC, your spot on a map (including WvW) is reserved for about 60 seconds.

@William Personally, this content is designed for people to be seriously looking at their gear traits and builds and utilities…for that reason instances would be more ideal….what about a compromise….make open world easy versions and instanced hardcore versions of these world bosses?

NO thanks, no need for this elitist wow bs in this game.
GW2 is open world everyone can join in, don’t like it? go back to wow.

WilliamDaBloody.2591:

Instance suck in general. GW2 is about open world. People can come to events, learn new things, meet new people and work together and even overcome griefers and compensate for the real bad players that are still part of the community.

If you want an instance like with a larger guild just go to an overflow. There are enough that are empty quickly as famers and likes leave quickly. So no biggie to get your own instance if you really want to.

But as said GW2 is open world and it should stay this way. There are tons of players who do not want to join some larger guilds but prefer to meet new people and play together withthem and overcoming a challenge.

“LFG 15 condimancers, 10 guardians, 125 zerker warriors, full ascended, gear check” is just bad for the game. It’s already hard to find players for existing instances as more experienced players stay to themselves. How are new people supposed to learn?

Yeah, I despise any kind of instances…

What I would like to see though, are 10-20 player dungeons, where they have to play coordinated…

What is more important: if you have a DC, your spot on a map (including WvW) is reserved for about 60 seconds.

I don’t agree. GW2 is about whatever you want it to be about. I love doing dungeons, and so do a lot of people. And it’s obvious a lot of people like large raiding content because the mainflows for Wurm are always hardcapped. Why not give those types of players the things they need to really enjoy that type of gameplay? One of the biggest issues right now is getting people to join teamspeak and getting them to run proper builds and strats. You might not like it, but the wurm requires a lot of dps, and we simply can’t down it with (for example) 60 bearbows in sentinels gear.

What I would like to see though, are 10-20 player dungeons, where they have to play coordinated…

You want this? That’s exactly what I’m asking for. So I fail to see where we disagree other than the philosophy of individual freedom vs the group in the context of a multiplayer game.

JoxerNL.3752:

NO thanks, no need for this elitist wow bs in this game.
GW2 is open world everyone can join in, don’t like it? go back to wow.

This is a very weak argument. It’s obvious by the amount of participation that people like these large group effort fights, and the game can only benefit from having stronger ways of organizing large groups, which is what I’m asking for. Please stop wielding the term “elitist” like a cudgel to smash what you don’t like. It doesn’t form good discussion.

Zanthrax.6538:

@William Personally, this content is designed for people to be seriously looking at their gear traits and builds and utilities…for that reason instances would be more ideal….what about a compromise….make open world easy versions and instanced hardcore versions of these world bosses?

That destroys the idea of hardcore and casual players come together. The hardcore players stay to themselves and the rest will never learn how things work. We already see this in certain dungeons and high level fractals. Hardcore players will seperate themselves as soon as possible if given on the option. And this is a thing Anet doesn’t want in the long run to keep this game as a non-subscriber alive.

For full disclosure: I am not a casual kittening. I am one of those hardcore players that camped on the Deso map for three days and taught people. Everyone who tried was welcome, guests or not. You came to TS, you stayed, you tried hard, you were welcome.

It was the most rewarding event in GW2 ever when we killed the boss. You really felt accomplishment. No instance can give you that. It is part of the GW2 philosophy right now to bring people together. Raiding in WoW was just toxic. Integrating pugs is part of the challenge. It’s also a community building exercise. Smart move Anet. The Marionette is the same thing, just on a smaller more casual friendly scale.

People demanded instances for Tequatl as it was impossible to do. And what is happening now: it get’s killed on a daily basis. Not even generating overflows but going to low pop severs (often 2 or 3 at the same time). Everyone can join, no special guilds required. That’s the spirit of an MMO. And some other servers do it every two hours. People learnt and are able to organize themselves. That’s what Anet wants, that’s what is making GW2 unique.

What I can agree upon: as a guild you can create an own instance, but you do not get any loot or achievements when running in your own instance. That would be acceptable for me. You get merits and influence for your guild as you decided to seperate yourselved from the open world.

As said I hate instance elitism. It took the fun out of WoW. You had to join some guilds and obey to their rules to have a chance to complete content. It was not rewarding and the reason I quit.

The open world event strategy is what makes GW2 unique. It has to stay this way. There are already enough instanced games….

Of course the LFG tool and the way overflows work are in urgent need of improvement.

Do you think having griefers and people that refuse to improve or learn is the lesser of 2 evils compared to providing instanced content thus splitting the community? Im genuinely curious, cause you do raise a good point but I just feel segregation might be more beneficial. /shrug. I see pro’s and con’s for both sides and honestly it is tricky to manage / balance definitely but I happen to think you’d feel differently if you hadn’t of downed it, and I’d argue that most of the people you got into that instance were people willing to listen and adapt and improve.

For the record my issue isn’t with people guesting or lesser skilled players or casuals at all, my issue is with stubborn people that get backed into a corner and lash out when we are trying to help them. Myself and a number of other commanders have been on blackgate for 6 days now and each and every new wave of people we walk them through it we teach them and give suggestions and analyse previous attempts and say hey great job with this part guys i really like how we did x but i think y could be improved perhaps we could try z…

We do all that but it comes with a mix of these players that will refuse to alter builds, listen or contribute to co-ordinating. We are trying to get numbers and they won’t stack, we ask them to get into teamspeak they won’t. It can be frustrating and the first obvious solution is usually instances. If there were other methods to help that i’d love to explore them. Since you raised your point about the negatives of splitting communities through instances I tend to see your point on that so good call. But it can certainly be frustrating for hardcore and casual players alike when we teach them and they go wow yea cool and they help out and all is well…then you get those griefers which can’t be controlled by servers because of overflows and guesting.

Perhaps 60 seconds to reconnect before being kicked to an overflow would be awesome, if you disconnect you don’t have to cry yourself to sleep. Would there be benefit to having specific number’d overflows like districts in GW1?

There should be a proper queue so people don’t have to spam join on party or keep zoning in and out. Also, they should never ever make it instanced. This way it’s open for everyone and it’s fair because those who are willing to invest more time in it (wait longer) will have a better chance of actually doing it. If you guest on BG 5 minutes before the event starts why would you get in???

I’m against the overflow idea that certain guild does. That is just closing it for most of people, as those who are in that guild will get their any time they want and they don’t have to invest any time in waiting, and everyone else just has to be lucky with join spam to fill in those last few spots.

WilliamDaBloody.2591:

Instance suck in general.

If you want an instance like with a larger guild just go to an overflow.

Yeah, I despise any kind of instances.

What I would like to see though, are 10-20 player dungeons, where they have to play coordinated…

Your first 3 points are why GW2 can’t become a better game

Your 4th point is what actually everybody wants….

Xenon.4537:

JoxerNL.3752:

NO thanks, no need for this elitist wow bs in this game.
GW2 is open world everyone can join in, don’t like it? go back to wow.

This is a very weak argument. It’s obvious by the amount of participation that people like these large group effort fights, and the game can only benefit from having stronger ways of organizing large groups, which is what I’m asking for. Please stop wielding the term “elitist” like a cudgel to smash what you don’t like. It doesn’t form good discussion.

And what would your stronger ways of organizing entail and what would they accomplish?

Build check- Pidgeon holing people into certain specs
Gear check- Same as above
Instancing- Segregating the community so those that don’t want to join a big guild/alliance can’t participate?

Those things will foster an elitist community and give rise to big guilds. That is not what this game was designed around. I understand people want some harder content, but do not try and push instanced raids into the game or you will potentially ruin it. How? Well besides the elitism it breeds it then becomes an issue of rewards. “We did a hard raid and got greens and yellows! Rabble! Rabble! Rabble!”. Suddenly raids are where you must go to get good loot, then new tiers of loot because Raid X is harder than Raid Y. At that point the entire casual nature of GW2 is gone. It is Raid or Die, WoW 2.

Instead lets build hard content that doesn’t depend on certain gear or builds and doesn’t have mechanics that trolls can ruin. We can keep things hard but without exclusion and elitism.

Xenon.4537:

WilliamDaBloody.2591:

Instance suck in general. GW2 is about open world. People can come to events, learn new things, meet new people and work together and even overcome griefers and compensate for the real bad players that are still part of the community.

If you want an instance like with a larger guild just go to an overflow. There are enough that are empty quickly as famers and likes leave quickly. So no biggie to get your own instance if you really want to.

But as said GW2 is open world and it should stay this way. There are tons of players who do not want to join some larger guilds but prefer to meet new people and play together withthem and overcoming a challenge.

“LFG 15 condimancers, 10 guardians, 125 zerker warriors, full ascended, gear check” is just bad for the game. It’s already hard to find players for existing instances as more experienced players stay to themselves. How are new people supposed to learn?

Yeah, I despise any kind of instances…

What I would like to see though, are 10-20 player dungeons, where they have to play coordinated…

What is more important: if you have a DC, your spot on a map (including WvW) is reserved for about 60 seconds.

I don’t agree. GW2 is about whatever you want it to be about. I love doing dungeons, and so do a lot of people. And it’s obvious a lot of people like large raiding content because the mainflows for Wurm are always hardcapped. Why not give those types of players the things they need to really enjoy that type of gameplay? One of the biggest issues right now is getting people to join teamspeak and getting them to run proper builds and strats. You might not like it, but the wurm requires a lot of dps, and we simply can’t down it with (for example) 60 bearbows in sentinels gear.

What I would like to see though, are 10-20 player dungeons, where they have to play coordinated…

You want this? That’s exactly what I’m asking for. So I fail to see where we disagree other than the philosophy of individual freedom vs the group in the context of a multiplayer game.

Nope, Guild Wars 2 is about the open world. Why? Because Anet says so. They’ve been saying this since day one. It’s always want they wanted. A living breathing world. It’s the first thing you see in the Guild Wars 2 website when you go there.

What part of instance makes a world living or breathing.

Big multiplayer instances take people out of the world. That’s why Anet put guild missions into the world.

You may personally want instances, but that’s not what the dev team is going for, and it’s not what brought people like me to this game.

mmm I must admit someone brought up the idea that the moment instances for this content is added casual players and hardcore players ina guild etc would never overlap again….

Made me appreciate that open world is definitely more fun but theres still a glaring issue of overflows and having to deal with players that don’t care to improve but you have to put up with them

There should be elite areas in open world. Like mini dungeons we already have, but with more difficulity, harder mobs, some tasks that require players to be in more places in same time for task to be completed, and problems that demand cooperation in general. And of course, nasty boss at end with sweet stash he’s not willing to part with.

I think this could be compromise between instanced raid content and open world.

Cappy.2786:

WilliamDaBloody.2591:

Instance suck in general.

If you want an instance like with a larger guild just go to an overflow.

Yeah, I despise any kind of instances.

What I would like to see though, are 10-20 player dungeons, where they have to play coordinated…

Your first 3 points are why GW2 can’t become a better game

Your 4th point is what actually everybody wants….

Exactly. No instanced raid, but 10-20 player dungeons with large boss and hard encounter which require coordination!

I’d rather not see the 10-20 man instanced raid. One of the things that excites me is that it doesn’t do that here – I wasn’t a massive fan of them in other games, albeit some did them better than others.

I like the open world feel of the bosses and the impact (some) of them have on the zone around them. I think they could do more to integrate them into the environment and fine tune the difficulty balances, but I much prefer what we have to the alternative.

I’m not a big fan of the dungeons (fractals aside) here and they currently encourage speed runs and skipping which put off a fair bit of the community (I was kicked just the other day for not knowing a speed run version of a dungeon having barely been in there!). Until dungeon mechanics and the kick system are overhauled, I’m not sure instancing content is a wise idea for the game nor will it promote community relations (regardless of how some feel, there are evidences of community building going on – that cannot happen with an instance raid)

Ofc at the end of the day, only Anet have access to the metrics to say which is likely a better direction to go in.

When i read the replies from WilliamDaBloody.2591 and JoxerNL.3752, I’m getting a little upset already.
You two guys give me the impression like many others. Let the others do the work.
And to disguise your own incapability of putting in a little effort you call others elitist.

Have been many hours in Que to fight the Worm in at least a little organized group of people. And also there I found afk’s , most without any buff-food/oil/crystals and if they did have buffs it was Magic find and more Gold for kills !!!
Please give me the opportunity to raid with People who actually care and putt in some effort. I’m tired of all the parasites who just want to play as they want with no option to help their Team, or in other words just wait for others to do their job.
I gladly take the opportunity to play with the so called “elitist” only if i had a chance and let the wanabes not even get close to get an achievement.

PS. Being a noob is no problem, but acting smug against people who try hard is.

Greezzz

JoxerNL.3752:

NO thanks, no need for this elitist wow bs in this game.
GW2 is open world everyone can join in, don’t like it? go back to wow.

If that was the case then dungeons and fractals would not exist. But they do. I honestly have no issue with instanced content for guilds. Don’t like them, don’t do them. That’s what I do with fractals. I just don’t want to see the removal of large scale open world events in favor of instanced only content. That would be bad. Why not have both?

MiniMe.1960:

When i read the replies from WilliamDaBloody.2591 and JoxerNL.3752, I’m getting a little upset already.
You two guys give me the impression like many others. Let the others do the work.
And to disguise your own incapability of putting in a little effort you call others elitist.

Have been many hours in Que to fight the Worm in at least a little organized group of people. And also there I found afk’s , most without any buff-food/oil/crystals and if they did have buffs it was Magic find and more Gold for kills !!!
Please give me the opportunity to raid with People who actually care and putt in some effort. I’m tired of all the parasites who just want to play as they want with no option to help their Team, or in other words just wait for others to do their job.
I gladly take the opportunity to play with the so called “elitist” only if i had a chance and let the wanabes not even get close to get an achievement.

PS. Being a noob is no problem, but acting smug against people who try hard is.

Greezzz

Exactly this.When i do a boss which is as a raid difficulty i want to have full control over my group.I don’t mind to take new people in the guild run.But slackers or people who play how they want are not welcomed.

Here is what i don’t want to have in the group:

1. Afking people.
2. Missing food buffs or bringing the wrong ones like MF/GF
3. Not bringing items to increase dps

Here is what i want:

• Cookie cutter build
• Specific gear
• Doing exactly what leaders say

Well seeing as this Wurm content is designed for large, organised multi-guild groups, it certainly wouldn’t hurt for it to be instanced. As far as I know, the group from Deso completed it by literally having to ferry people into one server, so that they knew that everyone there was a part of the organised raid.

I think having raid instances for these events will actually encourage more participation and formation of large focused guild groups, which is exactly what this content is for.

Distaste.4801:

Xenon.4537:

JoxerNL.3752:

NO thanks, no need for this elitist wow bs in this game.
GW2 is open world everyone can join in, don’t like it? go back to wow.

This is a very weak argument. It’s obvious by the amount of participation that people like these large group effort fights, and the game can only benefit from having stronger ways of organizing large groups, which is what I’m asking for. Please stop wielding the term “elitist” like a cudgel to smash what you don’t like. It doesn’t form good discussion.

And what would your stronger ways of organizing entail and what would they accomplish?

Build check- Pidgeon holing people into certain specs
Gear check- Same as above
Instancing- Segregating the community so those that don’t want to join a big guild/alliance can’t participate?

Those things will foster an elitist community and give rise to big guilds. That is not what this game was designed around. I understand people want some harder content, but do not try and push instanced raids into the game or you will potentially ruin it. How? Well besides the elitism it breeds it then becomes an issue of rewards. “We did a hard raid and got greens and yellows! Rabble! Rabble! Rabble!”. Suddenly raids are where you must go to get good loot, then new tiers of loot because Raid X is harder than Raid Y. At that point the entire casual nature of GW2 is gone. It is Raid or Die, WoW 2.

>>>Instead lets build hard content that doesn’t depend on certain gear or builds and doesn’t have mechanics that trolls can ruin. We can keep things hard but without exclusion and elitism. <<<

The problem I see is with the bolded (edit: it didn’t bold correctly so I made arrows >.>) part of your post. How do they create something that is both hard and yet doesn’t require anything specific? There has to be some level of specificness. If anyone can do it in any spec with any skill level… then how is it hard? Running the 100 meter dash is relatively hard for overweight, out of shape people, but you are suggesting we design a “dash” that doesn’t exclude them? How then is it a difficult event for anyone? You are suggesting we design content for the lowest common denominator?

I get that there are casual players in GW2, and I’m not saying we should force them out of the game. There’s nothing forcing you to go to an instanced raid. If you don’t want to do something, don’t do it. But if you do want to do something, and that thing is difficult, prepare to change your attitude and possibly your build. Yelling “elitism” is getting old.

Simonoly.4352:

Well seeing as this Wurm content is designed for large, organised multi-guild groups, it certainly wouldn’t hurt for it to be instanced. As far as I know, the group from Deso completed it by literally having to ferry people into one server, so that they knew that everyone there was a part of the organised raid.

I think having raid instances for these events will actually encourage more participation and formation of large focused guild groups, which is exactly what this content is for.

The way that Deso did it was pretty clever. All of the hardcore types that were on Teamspeak, were willing to listen, were willing to change gear and builds to adapt, etc. They all ran it for 30+ hours and failed because there is always that ~20% of the people who refuse to get on Teamspeak, refuse to change their gear, refuse to admit that their ranger running sentinels with a bear is a terrible build. That 20% is hurtting the rest of the group effort. So what did Deso do? They decided to take a 14 hour break, agreed through Teamspeak. They all left the casuals to fail for 14 hours. The casuals gave up or guested to different servers. Then after 14 hours the hardcores were all rested and refreshed. They logged back in and ferried each other back in, and defeated the wurm with much of the “fat” trimmed away from their group comp. Call it elitist if you want, but it got the job done. I really wish people would quit hating this idea of “elitism” and change their attitude. Stop being selfish, look at the game as a challenge to overcome. How do you overcome a challenge? You have to do what is necessary. If you have to change you build, DO IT. If you need to communicate with people better by using Teamspeak, DO IT. It’s not that difficult to adapt.

Edit: I would just like to reiterate, no one is forcing the casual player to fight the wurm. You don’t have to change your build, just go do something else with your build and leave the “… elitists…” alone. The problem is that Bloodtide Coast is an open world map, and the entire point of this thread is to discuss moving events like the wurm into an instance so that casuals don’t have to deal with “…elitism….” in their open world.

Raids would be really awesome. In all games that I have been playing, guilds were competing in raids. It was something to show everyone: hey, our guild killed boss XXX, we are proud of it. It’s like PVE version of “guild wars” (not the game title).
Right now all that we have is “world wars”. We have WvW, we have raids that worlds compete who can kill the boss first. These worlds are like guilds in any other game, but in any other game we don’t have to pay to change guild.

Personally, I want more “guild wars” in Guild Wars instead of “world wars”. I’d like to see raid instances for around 25 players.
- they don’t have to drop anything really cool (maybe some unique ascended armors, like world bosses),
- no more tiers of equipment,
- they don’t have to be the only way to play

This is a great thing that everyone can play GW2 the way he likes. Noone is forced to do world bosses or fractals. The same would be with raids, but keep in mind that there is a lot of players that likes this kind of content. They would do it, they wouldn’t be stronger than you because you are not doing it, but they would have fun (including me).

My last word to all of you, who say that you don’t want raids in GW2, that they are bad etc: your logic is like – “I don’t like it so noone should like it. I’m not gonna do it so noone should do it”. I hope you see the point.

yayuuu.9420:

Personally, I want more “guild wars” in Guild Wars instead of “world wars”. I’d like to see raid instances for around 25 players.
- they don’t have to drop anything really cool (maybe some unique ascended armors, like world bosses),
- no more tiers of equipment,
- they don’t have to be the only way to play

This is something I feel a lot of the “anti-raiders” don’t understand or skim over. Raids in GW2 absolutely DON’T have to follow the WoW formula. There is no law stipulating that raids MUST have a new gear tier every X amount of time. What causes new gear tiers? Raise of level cap due to expansions. Anet have already put forth a lot of discussion about progression in the CDI threads and have stated that they want to develop progression through new skills and abilities rather than higher level caps.

In other news:
The wurms and Teq already feature small chances at ascended gear as reward. That’s all an instanced raid needs in this game. I’m not suggesting we change that. Anyone can still go to the raid with exotics, you know those things you practically get for free when you hit 80 assuming you didn’t spend all of your karma on Lemons. On top of that, the wurms have demonstrated that we can certainly have raid mechanics that require a diverse comp. You need at least a few Condition builds to kill the Husks. Who’s to say Anet can’t develop mobs that require more CC, more tanky builds, more this that or the other, etc etc. You don’t necessarily have to get pidgeon-holed. All we’re asking is that you be open to change. Your build designed for soloing Heart quests might not be the best build for killing a Husk. It baffles me why someone would blame the “…elitist…” group leader for their own shortcommings as a “husk killer.” If you have to adapt, then adapt and stop calling people “elitist” for asking you to adapt.

No to instanced raid content. Content for every one please not select few – say no to elitism

Kargath.6598:

No to instanced raid content. Content for every one please not select few – say no to elitism

I absolutely agree with this.

Rezz.8019:

Kargath.6598:

No to instanced raid content. Content for every one please not select few – say no to elitism

I absolutely agree with this.

Please explain how wanting to group with your friends and play how you want with them is a bad thing? Just like real life, there are people you want to be around people you don’t; why force these painful scenarios?

Distaste.4801:

Xenon.4537:

JoxerNL.3752:

NO thanks, no need for this elitist wow bs in this game.
GW2 is open world everyone can join in, don’t like it? go back to wow.

This is a very weak argument. It’s obvious by the amount of participation that people like these large group effort fights, and the game can only benefit from having stronger ways of organizing large groups, which is what I’m asking for. Please stop wielding the term “elitist” like a cudgel to smash what you don’t like. It doesn’t form good discussion.

And what would your stronger ways of organizing entail and what would they accomplish?

Build check- Pidgeon holing people into certain specs
Gear check- Same as above
Instancing- Segregating the community so those that don’t want to join a big guild/alliance can’t participate?

Those things will foster an elitist community and give rise to big guilds. That is not what this game was designed around. I understand people want some harder content, but do not try and push instanced raids into the game or you will potentially ruin it. How? Well besides the elitism it breeds it then becomes an issue of rewards. “We did a hard raid and got greens and yellows! Rabble! Rabble! Rabble!”. Suddenly raids are where you must go to get good loot, then new tiers of loot because Raid X is harder than Raid Y. At that point the entire casual nature of GW2 is gone. It is Raid or Die, WoW 2.

Instead lets build hard content that doesn’t depend on certain gear or builds and doesn’t have mechanics that trolls can ruin. We can keep things hard but without exclusion and elitism.

Without exclusion…? Why are there guilds? Why do you have a friends list? Why is there a block button? Why are parties limited to 5? Let’s just create 1 large guild that forces everyone to play with each other. You may want to get carried in content that is too difficult for casuals to complete on their own, but hardcore players have 0 interest in this.

docMed.7692:

Distaste.4801:

Xenon.4537:

JoxerNL.3752:

NO thanks, no need for this elitist wow bs in this game.
GW2 is open world everyone can join in, don’t like it? go back to wow.

This is a very weak argument. It’s obvious by the amount of participation that people like these large group effort fights, and the game can only benefit from having stronger ways of organizing large groups, which is what I’m asking for. Please stop wielding the term “elitist” like a cudgel to smash what you don’t like. It doesn’t form good discussion.

And what would your stronger ways of organizing entail and what would they accomplish?

Build check- Pidgeon holing people into certain specs
Gear check- Same as above
Instancing- Segregating the community so those that don’t want to join a big guild/alliance can’t participate?

Those things will foster an elitist community and give rise to big guilds. That is not what this game was designed around. I understand people want some harder content, but do not try and push instanced raids into the game or you will potentially ruin it. How? Well besides the elitism it breeds it then becomes an issue of rewards. “We did a hard raid and got greens and yellows! Rabble! Rabble! Rabble!”. Suddenly raids are where you must go to get good loot, then new tiers of loot because Raid X is harder than Raid Y. At that point the entire casual nature of GW2 is gone. It is Raid or Die, WoW 2.

Instead lets build hard content that doesn’t depend on certain gear or builds and doesn’t have mechanics that trolls can ruin. We can keep things hard but without exclusion and elitism.

Without exclusion…? Why are there guilds? Why do you have a friends list? Why is there a block button? Why are parties limited to 5? Let’s just create 1 large guild that forces everyone to play with each other. You may want to get carried in content that is too difficult for casuals to complete on their own, but hardcore players have 0 interest in this.

Wow, I am floored by your disrespect towards casuals. I hope you post gets deleted by the mods. Your position that all casuals want to be carried is disgusting.

Disrespect? You should read my posts, I constantly explain I have no problem with people playing how they want to play - My issue is that Anet releases hardcore content that they specifically say is ’for hardcore players’. Then they give a system where casuals/hardcores are forced to do it together and it’s so finely tuned that it’s almost impossible to carry the casuals (so tough that it’s been done twice out of the thousand attempts+ so far). Sorry, but in this instance, it is true; for all the previous content, it’s not been an issue because the content is easy enough. Casual players are so scared by elitism, but this isn’t about that; it’s about content that is enjoyable for all players. I like to try hard and I personally don’t want to play with people who are not interested in this; again, I don’t have a problem with them, it’s just ridiculous that in order to accomplish this difficultly tuned content I have to either carry it enough or force these more casual players by pleading with them to respec/get on TS/learn the strats/etc. - There is no fun in this method. Dragging people day after day through content is not anyone’s definition of fun.

I think there is a lot of fear involved in this that’s driving some of these responses. Again, DocMed, I gotta agree with you and many of the posters in this thread.

Instancing would certainly be the way to go in this. The most fun I had with the Wurm content was this weekend with TTS and assorted guests in our OF. As you know, the point isn’t to hog an OF and be ‘eliteist’. The goal is to defeat these pesky bosses! The more players that can learn, the better!

Now, the casual gamer should not feel they are being alienated. I myself only get to play a few hours a week as it is. There is something here to understand, there is a world of difference between a casual gamer and a bad/ignorant player. A bad player does not understand the basic mechanics to the game and is unwilling to learn.

Some of the most fun I’ve ever had in this game was killing Teq when it was a new thing and attempting the Wurm this weekend. We got closer and closer on each attempt…and you know what? Nearly everyone was on TS, everyone was listening intently to commanders and party leaders, everyone had a role, everyone was being relied on.

People were joking, having fun, talking strategy, rehearsing…it was a great time. This is what these events are about. You know who ruins these events? Certainly not a player doing this for the first time. Everyone has to start somewhere.

People who ruin these events are the 5-10 people who refuse to listen, refuse to communicate, refuse to help, refuse to run skills to contribute, destroy field stacks, refuse to bring consumables, etc… These are the people who ruin these events. You get 150 (?) players on a map. That’s it… There is absolutely no reason to tolerate a percentage of that limit you have being wasted by someone who doesn’t care about the team.

If you are coming into a server full of people willing to work for the team goal, with the mindset of just leeching achievements, turn your kitten around and leave the server. Your slot could be filled by someone who wants to be there.

That’s my thoughts on instances. The only reason I support the idea of it is because I really don’t think that it would encourage gross elitism in this sort of content. I think it would just exclude players that don’t care. As with anything in life, if you don’t care, you don’t deserve (anything).

docMed.7692:

Disrespect? You should read my posts, I constantly explain I have no problem with people playing how they want to play – My issue is that Anet releases hardcore content that they specifically say is ‘for hardcore players’. Then they give a system where casuals/hardcores are forced to do it together and it’s so finely tuned that it’s almost impossible to carry the casuals (so tough that it’s been done twice out of the thousand attempts+ so far). Sorry, but in this instance, it is true; for all the previous content, it’s not been an issue because the content is easy enough. Casual players are so scared by elitism, but this isn’t about that; it’s about content that is enjoyable for all players. I like to try hard and I personally don’t want to play with people who are not interested in this; again, I don’t have a problem with them, it’s just ridiculous that in order to accomplish this difficultly tuned content I have to either carry it enough or force these more casual players by pleading with them to respec/get on TS/learn the strats/etc. – There is no fun in this method. Dragging people day after day through content is not anyone’s definition of fun.

Lay off the insults to casuals please.

moiraine.2753:

MiniMe.1960:

When i read the replies from WilliamDaBloody.2591 and JoxerNL.3752, I’m getting a little upset already.
You two guys give me the impression like many others. Let the others do the work.
And to disguise your own incapability of putting in a little effort you call others elitist.

Have been many hours in Que to fight the Worm in at least a little organized group of people. And also there I found afk’s , most without any buff-food/oil/crystals and if they did have buffs it was Magic find and more Gold for kills !!!
Please give me the opportunity to raid with People who actually care and putt in some effort. I’m tired of all the parasites who just want to play as they want with no option to help their Team, or in other words just wait for others to do their job.
I gladly take the opportunity to play with the so called “elitist” only if i had a chance and let the wanabes not even get close to get an achievement.

PS. Being a noob is no problem, but acting smug against people who try hard is.

Greezzz

Exactly this.When i do a boss which is as a raid difficulty i want to have full control over my group.I don’t mind to take new people in the guild run.But slackers or people who play how they want are not welcomed.

Here is what i don’t want to have in the group:

1. Afking people.
2. Missing food buffs or bringing the wrong ones like MF/GF
3. Not bringing items to increase dps

Here is what i want:

• Cookie cutter build
• Specific gear
• Doing exactly what the leaders say

sounds like you want the Wow/rift/swtor experience then, this has no point in Guild wars at all, those 3 things makes for a kittenty (though 3 can be good yeah) Stop trying to force annoying things on the game that not even arenanet wants, it’s annoying.

docMed.7692:

Disrespect? You should read my posts, I constantly explain I have no problem with people playing how they want to play – My issue is that Anet releases hardcore content that they specifically say is ‘for hardcore players’. Then they give a system where casuals/hardcores are forced to do it together and it’s so finely tuned that it’s almost impossible to carry the casuals (so tough that it’s been done twice out of the thousand attempts+ so far). Sorry, but in this instance, it is true; for all the previous content, it’s not been an issue because the content is easy enough. Casual players are so scared by elitism, but this isn’t about that; it’s about content that is enjoyable for all players. I like to try hard and I personally don’t want to play with people who are not interested in this; again, I don’t have a problem with them, it’s just ridiculous that in order to accomplish this difficultly tuned content I have to either carry it enough or force these more casual players by pleading with them to respec/get on TS/learn the strats/etc. – There is no fun in this method. Dragging people day after day through content is not anyone’s definition of fun.

Funny you slack of casuals, i’m casual player and i do far far far better than a lot of these hardcore/elitist players when comparing skill levels.

The cancer of games is usually the Elitist people (not hardcore not casuals) but those elitist people that think they are the only thing that’s good for the game, you don’t have to drag any one through anything you can actually make so you have little to no one in your overflow/server as some one already have shown how.

Casuals aren’t scared of elitism they just despise it since it has no bearings at all in a game like this.

Anet should just buy servers than can handle more people.
If they want open world events instead of instanced, they need to allow more people to be on the same server at the same time. Otherwise it just turns into Overflow Wars 2 like for the marionnette.

Azzer.8137:

docMed.7692:

Disrespect? You should read my posts, I constantly explain I have no problem with people playing how they want to play – My issue is that Anet releases hardcore content that they specifically say is ‘for hardcore players’. Then they give a system where casuals/hardcores are forced to do it together and it’s so finely tuned that it’s almost impossible to carry the casuals (so tough that it’s been done twice out of the thousand attempts+ so far). Sorry, but in this instance, it is true; for all the previous content, it’s not been an issue because the content is easy enough. Casual players are so scared by elitism, but this isn’t about that; it’s about content that is enjoyable for all players. I like to try hard and I personally don’t want to play with people who are not interested in this; again, I don’t have a problem with them, it’s just ridiculous that in order to accomplish this difficultly tuned content I have to either carry it enough or force these more casual players by pleading with them to respec/get on TS/learn the strats/etc. – There is no fun in this method. Dragging people day after day through content is not anyone’s definition of fun.

Funny you slack of casuals, i’m casual player and i do far far far better than a lot of these hardcore/elitist players when comparing skill levels.

The cancer of games is usually the Elitist people (not hardcore not casuals) but those elitist people that think they are the only thing that’s good for the game, you don’t have to drag any one through anything you can actually make so you have little to no one in your overflow/server as some one already have shown how.

Casuals aren’t scared of elitism they just despise it since it has no bearings at all in a game like this.

Generalizing casual vs hardcore is a philosophical debate that can be interpreted in so many ways. There will always be outliers in every single scenario; this nonetheless is hardly where any of my debate lies. Fact remains, ArenaNet literally said they designed this content for the hardcore players. Explain to me where people who are simply there to mooch achievements, don’t care about the encounter, and are unwilling to cooperate with the server fit in to this equation?

DarcShriek.5829:

docMed.7692:

Disrespect? You should read my posts, I constantly explain I have no problem with people playing how they want to play – My issue is that Anet releases hardcore content that they specifically say is ‘for hardcore players’. Then they give a system where casuals/hardcores are forced to do it together and it’s so finely tuned that it’s almost impossible to carry the casuals (so tough that it’s been done twice out of the thousand attempts+ so far). Sorry, but in this instance, it is true; for all the previous content, it’s not been an issue because the content is easy enough. Casual players are so scared by elitism, but this isn’t about that; it’s about content that is enjoyable for all players. I like to try hard and I personally don’t want to play with people who are not interested in this; again, I don’t have a problem with them, it’s just ridiculous that in order to accomplish this difficultly tuned content I have to either carry it enough or force these more casual players by pleading with them to respec/get on TS/learn the strats/etc. – There is no fun in this method. Dragging people day after day through content is not anyone’s definition of fun.

Lay off the insults to casuals please.

Again, nothing wrong with being a casual or just doing your own thing. Content that requires you to try/spec correctly/coordinate with a team though, which most casual players have no interest in (this is the experience many of us have in blackgate main flow with guest spammers, some who just join and /afk) makes 0 sense to me and needs to be addressed correctly.

I am continually disappointed in not getting even a single kill for Tequatl or Twisted because my server does not have enough hard-core players. All Arenanet has proven is that their events are designed to reward highly-populated and hard-core servers. It has nothing to do with player or group skill.

Please just watch this 20 minute video.
http://youtu.be/1VCMJckp0a0?t=6m16s

I think that this video gives a better insight at what the OP means/wants. And I couldn’t disagree with him in this video once.

Population certainly has something to do with it. Demographics do to though. If you were a core guild of hardcore players and you decided you wanted to tackle some difficult content, who would you want with you?

Players who are willing to listen and learn, players who adapt their builds, players who coordinate?

Or players who don’t care about the team, players who do whatever they want and expect rewards for doing nothing?

It’s not about casual vs hardcore. It’s about lazy and ignorant gamers ruining things for people who care. Don’t know the content? Don’t care to learn it? Then you won’t be carried.

This is why these guilds and servers move players to places where they are more likely to find like minded players. Why endure the nightmare of trying to coordinate a server with more than 40% players (just making up numbers) who don’t care to communicate, rehearse, or even rebuild for the Wurm fight? It’s not fair to the players who are putting in the time (or to the players who don’t have the time but are willing to learn and try).

I’ve run the wurm multiple times with TTS and I’d have to disagree on being able to set up private raid instances.

Instances foster further exclusivity. Given a chance, as an above poster mentioned, the most hardcore will try to separate themselves and as they do so, it’s easy to cultivate an elitist mindset that looks down on others that are at different points on the learning curve. It generates a culture of toxicity and makes it harder for new players to penetrate and be welcomed into the game. It goes against what Guild Wars 2 is supposed to stand for.

Instead, I’d hope we could try to brainstorm other less obvious things that could help besides the already tried solution in other games of private raid instances.

• Off the top of my mind, a way to automatically queue up for a full map or overflow that your party member is in would be less agonizing than having to spam right-click and join on a party member.

• Better organizational tools for commanders such as differently colored tags or whatever else might be helpful.

• A way to SAVE/LOAD builds as in GW1 might go a LONG way towards getting those resistant to change their builds to do so.

And so on…

Chris RJ.1843:

Population certainly has something to do with it. Demographics do to though. If you were a core guild of hardcore players and you decided you wanted to tackle some difficult content, who would you want with you?

Players who are willing to listen and learn, players who adapt their builds, players who coordinate?

Or players who don’t care about the team, players who do whatever they want and expect rewards for doing nothing?

It’s not about casual vs hardcore. It’s about lazy and ignorant gamers ruining things for people who care. Don’t know the content? Don’t care to learn it? Then you won’t be carried.

This is why these guilds and servers move players to places where they are more likely to find like minded players. Why endure the nightmare of trying to coordinate a server with more than 40% players (just making up numbers) who don’t care to communicate, rehearse, or even rebuild for the Wurm fight? It’s not fair to the players who are putting in the time (or to the players who don’t have the time but are willing to learn and try).

This is carp because it is about which server you are on. Events that require, or allow, more than 2 or 3 groups become a statistical study on the population.

@Azzer.8137,
now you just act, like you are the only one who knows whats going on. Calling everyone, who tries to make the best out of it an elitist doesn’t help you neither.
Theory crafting and trying to get the maximum out of your class can be pretty much fun.
Also, last time i tried to get in a Dungeon i had no problems. I even said at the beginning that i didn’t done that Path and they did NOT kick me. To be honest i did not try to join a skipping/running Party.

Elite, Pro, Noob, Casual are nothing bad at all. It’s the attitude and or ignorance where it’s getting complicated. And the fact that people are different doesn’t make it easier. Best thing for ME, give me a choice.

Greezzz

I don’t understand you guys who are against. Explain me please, what’s the difference between a game with worls bosses, dungeons, fractals, open world content AND a game with world bosses, dungeons, fractals, open world content, raids?

Which one is a better game?

For me it’s clearly 2nd option. You have more choices of how you want to spend your time, you don’t really loose anything, noone who cleared raids can have advantage over you. You can still play as you want, people who finished raids will still play open world content and once you find a nice guild, you will go and do raids with them. You might be really good and clear all bosses or you are not good enought and kill only 1 or 2 easy bosses.

Another thing – what’s the difference between raids and for example guild puzzles? Both are designed for guilds, both can be done once a week and people who are in medium / big guilds are not isolating because they can do guild puzzles. The same people are still doing a lot of ther things and that wouldn’t change. The only difference is that they could do more fun stuff with friends, try different tactics and finally be proud that they cleared a raid.

Reasumming – for you, who really hate raids, there wouldn’t be any difference if they added them or not. The world bosses would still exist, players would still do them and once a week 25 players would isolate themselves in a raid instance (like they are not doing any dungeons anyway) for like 2, 3, 4 hours, kill some stuff, leave and then carry you again killing world bosses. I don’t see any difference for you.

Why do i have to read the hardcore players will separate from the rest. The hard core usually is just a small part.
Statements like that i interpret like this: " I can’t do it alone and i refuse to adept. Not because i can’t, i just don’t want to do it". That’s a really sad attitude.
The hardcore you probably meant, are the ones who can run the same thing over and over again without getting bored. The only thing they can’t stand are people who want to run with them but not play on their rules. You know what !? they have the right to.

I have been in Pro/elitist Parties in WvW and in dungeons and i have been a lot more in random Parties.
If you want to go Pro, act Pro, and get the Build/Class/Fitting that is asked for or don’t join. You are completely free to stay away from them.

Greezzz

Hard-core are players who understand their character’s skills, understand the event, and adjust their build/skills to accomplish it with the highest chance of success or shortest time.

Casual, or soft-core, players are either less adept (newer at that profession) or less focused (play for fun that does not include max skill/pownage.)

You cannot tell players that this is an elite game for 3[1t3 sk1[[z and expect to make money because casual players are a huge portion of the revenue base. That is what I do not understand in Arenanet leadership. It is like there is a huge disconnect between the revenue side and the pro-gamer side. They have to cater to both revenue streams separately.

Anchoku.8142:

Chris RJ.1843:

Population certainly has something to do with it. Demographics do to though. If you were a core guild of hardcore players and you decided you wanted to tackle some difficult content, who would you want with you?

Players who are willing to listen and learn, players who adapt their builds, players who coordinate?

Or players who don’t care about the team, players who do whatever they want and expect rewards for doing nothing?

It’s not about casual vs hardcore. It’s about lazy and ignorant gamers ruining things for people who care. Don’t know the content? Don’t care to learn it? Then you won’t be carried.

This is why these guilds and servers move players to places where they are more likely to find like minded players. Why endure the nightmare of trying to coordinate a server with more than 40% players (just making up numbers) who don’t care to communicate, rehearse, or even rebuild for the Wurm fight? It’s not fair to the players who are putting in the time (or to the players who don’t have the time but are willing to learn and try).

This is carp because it is about which server you are on. Events that require, or allow, more than 2 or 3 groups become a statistical study on the population.

No…this is a carp.

Do tell me though, what exactly are you trying to say here.

Xenon.4537:

Simonoly.4352:

Well seeing as this Wurm content is designed for large, organised multi-guild groups, it certainly wouldn’t hurt for it to be instanced. As far as I know, the group from Deso completed it by literally having to ferry people into one server, so that they knew that everyone there was a part of the organised raid.

I think having raid instances for these events will actually encourage more participation and formation of large focused guild groups, which is exactly what this content is for.

The way that Deso did it was pretty clever. All of the hardcore types that were on Teamspeak, were willing to listen, were willing to change gear and builds to adapt, etc. They all ran it for 30+ hours and failed because there is always that ~20% of the people who refuse to get on Teamspeak, refuse to change their gear, refuse to admit that their ranger running sentinels with a bear is a terrible build. That 20% is hurtting the rest of the group effort. So what did Deso do? They decided to take a 14 hour break, agreed through Teamspeak. They all left the casuals to fail for 14 hours. The casuals gave up or guested to different servers. Then after 14 hours the hardcores were all rested and refreshed. They logged back in and ferried each other back in, and defeated the wurm with much of the “fat” trimmed away from their group comp. Call it elitist if you want, but it got the job done. I really wish people would quit hating this idea of “elitism” and change their attitude. Stop being selfish, look at the game as a challenge to overcome. How do you overcome a challenge? You have to do what is necessary. If you have to change you build, DO IT. If you need to communicate with people better by using Teamspeak, DO IT. It’s not that difficult to adapt.

Edit: I would just like to reiterate, no one is forcing the casual player to fight the wurm. You don’t have to change your build, just go do something else with your build and leave the “… elitists…” alone. The problem is that Bloodtide Coast is an open world map, and the entire point of this thread is to discuss moving events like the wurm into an instance so that casuals don’t have to deal with “…elitism….” in their open world.

Eugh what a kittening load of hassle those Deso guys had to put up with. Back when Tequatl came out I was in a guild dedicated to taking him down. We had to do so many things to ensure that everyone participating was a part of the organised raid so we would actually succeed. It’s not that we didn’t want new players to get involved (anyone could join the guild) it’s that we only desired players who actually wanted to contribute to the raid by conscientiously gearing and playing in a way that would allow us to win. Although sometimes simply being on TS would be enough to ensure your contribution. After all, that’s what these sort of events are designed for.

Jeromai.8203:

I’ve run the wurm multiple times with TTS and I’d have to disagree on being able to set up private raid instances.

Instances foster further exclusivity. Given a chance, as an above poster mentioned, the most hardcore will try to separate themselves and as they do so, it’s easy to cultivate an elitist mindset that looks down on others that are at different points on the learning curve. It generates a culture of toxicity and makes it harder for new players to penetrate and be welcomed into the game. It goes against what Guild Wars 2 is supposed to stand for.

Instead, I’d hope we could try to brainstorm other less obvious things that could help besides the already tried solution in other games of private raid instances.

• Off the top of my mind, a way to automatically queue up for a full map or overflow that your party member is in would be less agonizing than having to spam right-click and join on a party member.

• Better organizational tools for commanders such as differently colored tags or whatever else might be helpful.

• A way to SAVE/LOAD builds as in GW1 might go a LONG way towards getting those resistant to change their builds to do so.

And so on…

I think you bring up some good points and some good ideas. However, I don’t think it’s necessarily a bad thing for hardcores to separate themselves from casuals. In fact I think it’s inevitable.

You say raids will create a toxic elitist community. Well why is that? Some people want a challenge, some don’t The ones that do will rise to that challenge. The ones that don’t can just as easily stay away from raiding. Whats toxic about that? And by the way lets talk for a moment about what it means to raid in GW2. You need to be level 80 and have exotic gear. Well how hard is it to reach level 80? How hard is it to get a full set of exotic gear? How hard is it to respec? How hard is it to get on Teamspeak or some other voice chat? I submit that anyone who at least reaches level 80 can easily raid in GW2, there’s almost nothing barring their way. There’s no gearscore. Exotics are exotics. You don’t need ascended gear to do the wurms, so why would you need ascended gear for an instanced raid?