Guild Wars 2

Maybe I should be provided with an email address to privately report to ANet how these large scale events affect players.

>-Bitter and irritable.
>-Told to wiki or Dulfy it.
>-Blame is given to each other when its joint coordination.
>-Foul language into map chats that can affect morale

Do I just report the language or just avoid the events?

Its an interesting challenge but we have lots of players clashing unhealthily over it. Perhaps a scale down or alterations is needed?

I just did that now, and, while i agree that from the time that it started the tone has been getting worse. I think that is because people are learning how to do it, and when they learn how to do it they think that knowledge gives them a right to be mean.

It dosent. In fact that is the least helpful way to make people learn. The most helpful way is not to tell people they are bad, but to tell people how they can improve.

So the wiki think i think is fine. The blame is not, and I have just been adding anyone who has a negitive attitude to my block list. Then i just end up with a chat full of
“Nice trys.”
and “GL” again, EB, even in the worst of times is pretty nice. People who will call out people who are just ’’kittens’’ as one might say.

I’ve seen only a smidgen of that. Most people have been plenty nice even on fails. So it’s luck of the draw whether you get nice or nasty companions in your marionette fight.

One helpful thing is to patiently explain things in map before the fight begins every time someone asks. For instance, even though it’s plenty obvious by now that the five minute timer will start on the hour, there are still people that don’t know and ask “how long until it starts?” One could deride them … or simply explain the timing. If someone says they’re new to it, offer to /w them the fight explanation. I just did this on Wurm with a new person and we partied up and had a blast at Cobalt.

In any case, one can hardly tell ANet “Hey, your MMO? It’s too massive, you need to prevent large groups from congregating because man, people get nasty to each other when they get crowded.” The cure lies in players doing social engineering, not ANet reducing event size.

except the wiki and dulfy are the fastest and most accurate sources of information you’ll find

always nice to be treated like an kitten for pointing people to the clearest answer for their questions

Donari.5237:

. . . It’s too massive, you need to prevent large groups from congregating because man, people get nasty to each other when they get crowded." The cure lies in players doing social engineering, not ANet reducing event size.

Well Im all for these large scale events. When it gets too technical; we don’t have a technical playerbase to begin with. Not all are capable of using teamspeak and I am used to just running up to an event and adapting to what its asking for.

>-Its an interesting design but beyond what PUG’s can handle.
>-When PUG cant handle it they are stirred up.
>-Possible solution is to make them a tad less needing of in depth guides just to understand how to step foot in a platform or the “randoms” that do provide your manpower are no longer interested.
>-Not quite sure why we went from power or rally I.E. Other world bosses that just need people to show up; into server bragging rights and left for the coordinated. It’s a new tier of bosses but not labeled so.

(In now way do I say PUG as a bad thing, just us randoms that wander around looking for stuff to do, and playing impromptu. Yea I read the guide by now)

It’s not hard to explain the mechanics. I have rarely done one of these that has not included some brief explanation of what’s expected in each phase.

I don’t know if anyone has been a kitten to anyone else after a fail, cause I don’t watch map chat and don’t care. It has nothing to do with me. I just know they start off civil and cooperative.

Most of the flame happens on the second champion with the mines. Everytime people are explaining how to make them vulnerable and what not to do and still there are some ignoring this, and with people ignoring tips and mechanics, this one is a garuanteeed fail. It just frustrates people to see Champ 2 fail and fail and fail 90% of the time. I can understand some of the rants, but even with people ignoring the chat or mechanics others shouldn’t insult them.

Scumbag Mawile.6384:

except the wiki and dulfy are the fastest and most accurate sources of information you’ll find

always nice to be treated like an kitten for pointing people to the clearest answer for their questions

They are, I read them.

Lack of players communicating to other players. "GO read Dulfy or GTFO" isn’t nice compared to "Marrionette Mechanics on Dulfy.net. check it out for success"

jessiejay.3625:

Scumbag Mawile.6384:

except the wiki and dulfy are the fastest and most accurate sources of information you’ll find

always nice to be treated like an kitten for pointing people to the clearest answer for their questions

They are, I read them.

Lack of players communicating to other players. “GO read Dulfy or GTFO” isn’t nice compared to “Marrionette Mechanics on Dulfy.net. check it out for success”

eh, people kept asking in map and no one was answering so i told them the wiki and dulfy would have the best answers they could get

still got lynch mobbed for it

this can happen when you mix difficult content with open world. casuals vs. hardcore.

to the contrary, i’ve only completed once and failed many times in overflow………very little bitterness. most love the event and just get ready for the next attempt.

its a great/fun/well-designed event………if bitter people make it unfun for you….sorry, but it isn’t the same everywhere.

I, personally do not have a problem with people telling people about the wiki, but i also understand that, for some people it is more fun to figure it out for themselves.

Relshdan.6854:

this can happen when you mix difficult content with open world. casuals vs. hardcore.

It’s what happens when a company makes a game that caters to average players, and then puts out a new release where average players fail the event 90% of the time.

Almost every time I did the event most people treated each other with respect and were supportive/cheering rather than condescending or hateful. Even on the rare occasion we suffered a fail people were still great sports about it.

I am on Piken Square, in case you are wondering.

Neumonics.4603:

I just did that now, and, while i agree that from the time that it started the tone has been getting worse. I think that is because people are learning how to do it, and when they learn how to do it they think that knowledge gives them a right to be mean.

Actually, the mari event is the only one in the game where I have seen people encouraging each other before the event starts. Never before, have I seen a sense of community in this game, besides the ’where’s the friggin’ champ train?’ followed by a ‘troll’ or things like that.

But having a community means that you have to put up with it, in good and bad moments. As time goes by, people are less and less tolerant because by now everybody should know how the event goes and how to beat the platforms, or at least they should know they have to ask if they don’t. When you see groups failing at the second platform boss, you cannot help but think ‘these people don’t know what to do’ and that, by now, is not acceptable.

I wouldn’t avoid the events just for the sake of a few players that are bitter about losing. Don’t let anyone stop you. You’ll be missing out. So far, every event I have attended has failed, but I still had a lot of fun. Forget about the sore losers and you’ll see there are also people that cheer for people in the other lane when it’s their turn, and patiently tell inexperienced players what they can expect.
Is it a foolproof path to victory? No. But when I see things like that, I could care less about losing.

Arenanet could dumb down the event. It’d be nice to finally win, but I rather fail a hundred times more than to win it every time only because Arenanet made it easier. I don’t want to win like that. I want to work together with other players, whether they are friends, guildies or strangers I’ll never really get to know. I want to work together with all of these people and defeat the Marionette.

Qaelyn.7612:

Relshdan.6854:

this can happen when you mix difficult content with open world. casuals vs. hardcore.

It’s what happens when a company makes a game that caters to average players, and then puts out a new release where average players fail the event 90% of the time.

^This. For whatever reason (lack of skill, bad luck, bad connection, first time, etc..) people do keep messing it up. I don’t know their reasons specifically and I am starting to get really frustrated with this event.

I have beaten it once. Some have not been so lucky. However, every platform I have ever been on has had decent players on it (if not great) and has had no trouble with any of the wardens. Yet, I am unable to get the achievements for my individual performance because a platform that I cannot even help is failing the event.

You can understand how it’s frustrating. I think the general consensus is that instancing would be a good move for events like this. I don’t have hours and hours to play each day. I have a few times where I can play and I would like to make them count. In a sense, this is the actual definition of a ‘casual’ gamer.

Players who are spending hours and hours playing this event spamming 1 on their staff and refusing to do any damage or dodge bombs are not casual gamers. They are bad gamers. And they are making this painful for us.

jessiejay.3625:

>-Bitter and irritable.
>-Told to wiki or Dulfy it.

Can you blame them? Every Champion inside has one freaking mechanic to adapt for, plus the evades from Marionettes floor attacks. Any normal player should know what to do within seconds after seeing it for the first time. Really, ANet thought of everything in this event to make it easy to understand if you’re willing to try, even the colorblind must be happy for once with the improved AoE markers.

jessiejay.3625:

>-Blame is given to each other when its joint coordination.

It isn’t though and that’s why everyone’s patience is wearing thin. Forget the trash mobs, those are not what the Marionette event is about. In the second phase it’s down to 3-6 players in each circle to burn down the champion and the power generator within the time limit. The problem now is that half of everyone showing up think like you do and don’t do their part. They stand around doing nothing or are content with auto-attacks, can’t dodge anything and require several resses. On the 2nd champion with the mines, they still don’t get after days of trying, that they have to kite the mob in a circle so it get stunned on its own mines and vunerable to attacks. And that’s why it fails over and over. Start to take personal responsibility and stop wasting peoples precious time. Read a guide please, thanks.

http://dulfy.net/2014/01/22/gw2-twisted-marionette-boss-guide/

@gambit, You can not assume they had days of trying, perhaps it was their first time trying. And if people are blaming others for doing a ‘’bad job’’ then yes, i will call them out for being a**es.

Rule 1 for this event – Dont be a kitten.

These players get an instant report + block from me.

Suggesting that people look at guides is okay. But abusing players for not being familiar with the fight is completely unacceptable, especially when it’s been around for less than a week.

Rule 1 for this event – Do your part.

Like others have stated, I’ve seen nothing but a positive vibe in every chat in the waiting before the event start. It’s in everyones best interest that as many as possible know what to expect, and therefor tactics and hints are shared so people are prepared. If someone decide not to listen to good advice and instead do their thing, i’m sure they are equally oblivious afterwards and don’t get offended when frustrated spew insults around that aren’t directed at someone specific, other than “bads”.

Qaelyn.7612:

Relshdan.6854:

this can happen when you mix difficult content with open world. casuals vs. hardcore.

It’s what happens when a company makes a game that caters to average players, and then puts out a new release where average players fail the event 90% of the time.

okay….but there are enough good players to do the event right now….and also by now, many casuals are good enough to do it. unless you want a game that stays “catered to casuals only” i don’t see the problem here. casuals, by nature, will stop playing after too many fails. those that end up figuring it out join the ranks of “good players”. this kind of content actually makes the pool of decent players larger.

eventually this happened with teq….and will eventually happen with wurm.
it happened very quickly with marionette.

personally, i think they now should focus on challenging/organized content catered to a smaller player count (30-50)….but marionette is a great start (even if temporary) to making the kind of world event i’d be happy with.

Relshdan.6854:

okay….but there are enough good players to do the event right now….and also by now, many casuals are good enough to do it. unless you want a game that stays “catered to casuals only” i don’t see the problem here. casuals, by nature, will stop playing after too many fails. those that end up figuring it out join the ranks of “good players”. this kind of content actually makes the pool of decent players larger.

Good theory, but hasn’t matched the reality in the tries I’ve made this weekend. shrug

At this point I have stopped worrying too much about winning and just try to get drops. Because my win success rate is about 10%.

In the attempts I have been involved with on JQ, it has been pretty good. Yes, there’s a few idiots who have to wave their e-kittens and call people whatever, but in general, there’s a group of us who get there early, explain the mechanics and terminology to the new players, and so far, of the ones I have been there for, we have succeeded 4 out of 5 times.

While Dulfy and Wiki are great resources, expecting people to go outside the game for information is somehow wrong. By all means, tell people about them, but it’s so much easier to simply explain what’s going on and organize. In the end, it’s a lot of fun, and the folks who are trolling fade away after a few posts sans responses.

Oh, and to the OP:

To avoid getting forum infractions, you might want to edit your screenie to cover up names. I think there’s a rule about posting actual in-game names of players.

And then the devs say that these hard events help building a good community.
rrrright

Sucks…but world events are so different than raids lol

You know it really depends. I was in an OF earlier where we failed and people were really nice about it.

Ironically, it only takes a couple of nasty people to ruin the atmosphere.. just as it only takes a couple of nasty people to fail the event.

That said.. I STILL think that Arenanet needs to err on the side of a bit too easy rather than a bit too hard, at least until they develop better ability to deal with issues such as OF.

Figured I’d add my thoughts:

I’ve run this thing about 10-12 times since it started, and haven’t yet had a successful run. I’ve never wiped on a platform, and have always had my platform destroy the capacitor within the time limit. I’ve explained the mechanics to dozens of groups multiple times, and explained each champ on the fly as it may have been necessary. I support every lane, have immense lane pride, and cheer on everyone during the event.

That having been said, I find it MONUMENTALLY insulting that people show up to this event with 0 willingness to follow simple directions. I would like to win this thing at least once before it’s over, and at the rate I’m going I may not get to. It seems that, no matter what I do, someone always decides to ignore the people shouting directions while they flail about wildly and inevitably fail an almost flawless platform fight. For the most part I keep my cool, but sometimes it’s like a slap in the face when people do the exact opposite of what you spent 10 minutes explaining before the fight.

I would say I’ve seen at least a 25% success rate, personally, and I know Crystal Desert had a 4-5 complete streak the other night.

I’ve done this even 33 times now.

On my main server (which I rarely get into) I’ve won 5/8 attempts.
On the overflow servers I’ve won 2/25 attempts and most fail at 2 chains.

The latest attempt for example the first 2 lanes got their chains down, then 5 attempts on chain 3 failed miserably.

Been to the fight ~30 times. Always in overflow, without a guild party.
Not ONCE have a I got any dodge achiev:
- when I rushed first in, I was alone vs the boss for ~5-10 seconds. Got hit by something so failed the achiev from the start. That’s my bad and I learned not to go in first…
- when my group killed the boss (90% of times) there was Always a group that did not.
- some time we get a bear ranger that somehow pushed the bee(shield boss) agains a wall. This happend so many times…. everyone shouting “call your ****** pet back” but no use.
- some time we get a FT engineer / minion necro / some other useful combination, and the dps was lacking…

I hate this gambling AN keep feeding us.
I say gambling because for me it’s luck based: I may once get lucky and find myself with a decent 5 party that can actually dodge(so they don’t die) AND dps… we will see…

Most players don’t understand that others will perform better when you treat them with respect and patience and don’t lose your skritt as soon as something fails.

Just stay happy and explain how it works in clear terms, and the next fight will be better.

Gambit.8425:

Rule 1 for this event – Do your part . . . don’t get offended when frustrated spew insults around that aren’t directed at someone specific, other than "bads".

>-Understood but chicken or egg came first?
>-Is the event that hard? Or is 90% playerbase bad?
>-Good perspectives provided in this post in reasons how players are frustrated: multiple failed attempts.
>-I assumed "living story" was an open content for any and all players. Tequatl doesnt phase me aby more because its now deemed an advanced boss and everyone knows it.
>- Marrionette is not classified as an Advanced Boss but lets off the record deem it so.
>-No matter if it requires reading a Prima Guide book; everyone is under the assumption that living story is manageable content to A)minimum completed easily by working or busy casuals B)challenging extra achievements for completionists
>-Maybe i got a bad overflow but the game is suppose to be thrilling, challenging and fun. This clash of an Advanced Boss with casuals is raising peoples blood pressure for no reason.

Yea we all agree to read wiki and dulfy, ive read them all. Im thinking this is 50% design flaw and 50% player clash in result.

In my experiences i now prefer soloable living story so we clash less and do it at our own paces.

Lets review for a sec in my opinion
>-clearing baloon towers for a baloon reward i liked
>-mini events around the toxic tower was manageable
>-scarlet invasion was fun map wide loots even if failed
>-Thing under divinity reach was awesome
>-basically anything that didnt need 120+ Coordinated players per 2 hour was interrsting and minimal stress.

By the way....
>-Rewards like tonics, kites, and baloons did more bonding and friends making than the content itself.
Just saying :P

Regardless if you like fluff, high challenge content, or somewhere in between, there’s no doubt that LS, GW2’s “endgame,” is becoming a very negative play experience.

Squee Squashington.5189:

Regardless if you like fluff, high challenge content, or somewhere in between, there’s no doubt that LS, GW2’s “endgame,” is becoming a very negative play experience.

This is part of the creation process.

Id like to say that we are still in beta, testing to see what works or not XD.

It can be positive but we need to stay focused on constructive feedback on what works and what doesnt. Therefore nudging them towards things the majority enjoy.

To bad with all this constructive nudges we cant shove for an expansion lols

Pixelpumpkin.4608:

Most players don’t understand that others will perform better when you treat them with respect and patience and don’t lose your skritt as soon as something fails.

Just stay happy and explain how it works in clear terms, and the next fight will be better.

hooray this!
the fails I have been on have solely been because
1 some kitten was unhappy in overflow and riled everyone up before the fight
2 when lane 2 failed same kitten said omfg blah blah blah lets just farm champs
3 bar fills up because lane defense fails.
4 some bright spark starts sprouting insults at other people
5 people fail to defend right at the portal but camp the bottom of the lane to get drops

Every time so far when people take time to explain, are courteous and encouraging and don’t start raging at every fail but keep the morale up and refocus the group- either to defense, keep siege, re-enforce lanes, reminder of champ mechanics or just a few words like- good attempt better luck next time- gogo gogo.

The overall experience has been very good- even in the event of a wipe

It would probably help if there was some way (in-game) to figure out what the hell we’re supposed to do in each lane. New players would therefore be fully equipped with the information they need to succeed before trying it.

PeterThomas.7243:

It would probably help if there was some way (in-game) to figure out what the hell we’re supposed to do in each lane. New players would therefore be fully equipped with the information they need to succeed before trying it.

sure that would be great.
however Anet did state somewhere that they want players to self educate or some such- so that means that someone has to figure out the mechanics through trial and error and spread the word.

This has happened mostly and by this point all a brand new player to the fight has to do is show up before hand and read map chat- all will be explained.

I have never been at a Marionette where the mechanics are not explained- last couple of times on overflow I did it myself because we had one mute commander- that was either afk or meditating on the Eternal alchemy

I believe its much to do with what can be expected at each try. When i got into an overflow, and we clearly didnt have the numbers, the morale was surprisingly good. We didnt expect to win it, even though we had hope when we logged in (not like on another world event that came just now…). It was fun even to lose in a map-chat like that.

When there is hope and potential though, that can get some people riled up at the first sign of difficulty during the event. The worst part is, they dont feel content about them being miserable, they waste their own time and effort to spew their displeasure into map chat instead of keep fighting, or gods forbid, give constructive advices so that the next group has better chances. And their anger can spread. Making more people to react similarly. Making others react in map chat to them, people who would just want to mitigate the negativity and blame and frustration.

Its when trolling and blaming and the mitigation attempts (either positive encouragement or just as frustrated “kitten leetist kitten”) waste even more time and effort. A player who types whatever into chat does not give their fullest to the actual fighting. When you type something when you should be fighting, you should make it count. Be positive or at the least constructive, or stay silent and fight. Or leave. Nobody is forcing others to stay in an event they dont enjoy. Just dont waste your effort on teling them that.

TL:DR
If you cant say something nice(or constructive), dont say anything at all. And dont feed the trolls. Thats what Scarlet is there for.

@ Peter Thomas…. Dont agree with u. Thats part of the fun to break the code on how things have to be done, to figure that out!

And its not that hard to fugure out – participate and see what happens. Also look around, there is Equipment around for specific use…

This doesnt mean its easy. Even if u know what to do its not sure its going to be easy….

Morrigan.2809:

PeterThomas.7243:

It would probably help if there was some way (in-game) to figure out what the hell we’re supposed to do in each lane. New players would therefore be fully equipped with the information they need to succeed before trying it.

sure that would be great.
however Anet did state somewhere that they want players to self educate or some such- so that means that someone has to figure out the mechanics through trial and error and spread the word.

Yup, I know Anet stated that. And it’s stupid.

There’s a reason games are packed with manuals that let you know how to play them, or why most games have a tutorial, or tutorial content seeded throughout the game. That’s because players tend to like to know how to play a game before they play it. Otherwise they will fail miserably and feel cheated (sound familiar? A lot of people on this forum are feeling this way).

There is absolutely no reason why the players should be kept in the dark about what to expect. I don’t want to have to rely on jerky commanders who are insulting me every 60 seconds in order to play the game. Arenanet is effectively passing the buck onto their players.

All they had to do was have a single NPC, an asuran researcher or something, give a vague rundown of what to do. But we got nothing.

Aedelric.1287:

Almost every time I did the event most people treated each other with respect and were supportive/cheering rather than condescending or hateful. Even on the rare occasion we suffered a fail people were still great sports about it.

I am on Piken Square, in case you are wondering.

Ha yes, I’m on Piken Square as well and I have the exact same experience! People cheer each other on, give tips to first timers and the overall atmosphere is excellent.

In the overflows I’ve mostly found that the positive and encouraging ones tend to succeed, where those that are full of “omg u all suck it’s so easy!!11111 i can solo this on my main!!!111” or “it’s everyone’s fault except mine i never died ever it must be the rangers/engineers/elementalists/classidontplaymyself!!!” rubbish, usually fail.

For a game having karma as a currency, that actually makes sense to me! I think that if people can’t maintain a positive and encouraging atmosphere towards their fellow players even in the face of potential defeat, they don’t deserve the win anyways.

You know, when people aren’t reading mapchat after all the tactics you write there, or when you put a feast of food and point people to eat it and 2/3 don’t even care, or when you meet on a non-DE server a German-only thief who can’t put Shadow Refuge in a dungeon because he “english no speak” and didn’t see “experienced” in the party description, and then 4 of 5 platforms are looking at dead bodies on the last platform for the 10th time, it’s only natural to become irritated.

I’m all into cheering and cooperation, but for Grenth’s sake, it should either be casual content or hardcore content. And by “casual” I mean letting players who know what to do help players who don’t want to learn, because with these politics in mind leeching is better than nothing.

Wiki and Dulfy are the easiest and fastest ways to learn basics, so ofc, people will spam it in chat as a reference. On RoS, we also have people describing everything on TS.
But what kills the morale is that with all this prep and guidance, there are people with poor gear/builds. And they fail miserably, in defense and during champs phase. It pains those who put in a lot of effort to loose because of those guys. Cheering and support is excellent, as long as people put effort. But if pugs are gonna AFK and run like headless chickens with lame builds despite all the guidance and repetition, ofc the morale is going to go down.

Because overflow is an instance really, but there’s no choice of overflows and we cannot choose who to play with.

The lack of overflow-choice sucks, I totally agree.

Though I wonder how you see can see if someone’s build or gear sucks. Honest question, not some snarky comment!^^ I mean, especially in the midst of battle, I certainly can’t.

I mean, I can’t tell if people are truly oblivious and stand in the midst of an AoE marker because they don’t get it, or if it’s server/user lag (definitely not impossible in those massed events with all the spells going off).

I can’t see someone’s gear or build either, unless they link it and I somehow manage to study it mid-battle (assuming I am even experienced with their class).

Here on Aurora Glade we explain the mechanics multiple times in map chat, and squad chat, and overall the morale has been overwhelmingly positive. Even when a lane fails, people will yell out “good luck next lane, you can do this”.

I’ve never told anyone to go read dulfy. I personally feel that the commanders do a much better job at explaining things, than some website does. I also feel it’s the job of the commanders to keep morale high. Last night it was kind of touch and go for our attempt, but even as the last team went in, we remained confident that we could still make it. And make it we did.

In my experience the events fail because people have trouble 5-manning a champion.

And part of the failure falls to ANet for allowing lvl 35s in greens and blues to take part in the event.

Tom Gore.4035:

In my experience the events fail because people have trouble 5-manning a champion.

And part of the failure falls to ANet for allowing lvl 35s in greens and blues to take part in the event.

It’s in a level 35 zone in open world. I think what you really mean is that the failure is creating an event in a place like that where level 35s in greens and blues are a liability.

Neumonics.4603:

Rule 1 for this event – Dont be a kitten.

What does this mean? I keep seeing ‘kitten’ used in a wide variety of contexts across these forums and it seems so odd.

I understand frustration in games is NOT fun.

That being said, I’m on Yak’s Bend (not particularly known for being a heavily populated server), and I have done marionette 5 times so far. Out of those 5 times, we won 4 of them. In addition, it was not a “guild run” TS organized level of play.

Yes, we had some commanders step up (even on the 1-2 attempts in overflows), and there was cross-map chatter about what each lane should do/not do.

To me, this promotes community synergy and the difficulty, in my experience, is really just about perfect. If everyone is not doing their part, you will have issues. But that being said, switch lanes if you have to if one has less people and your portal sickness has worn off.

And no, you do not have to win to do any part of the living story. So I don’t think it needs toned down.

Just my 2 cents.

Relshdan.6854:

Qaelyn.7612:

Relshdan.6854:

this can happen when you mix difficult content with open world. casuals vs. hardcore.

It’s what happens when a company makes a game that caters to average players, and then puts out a new release where average players fail the event 90% of the time.

okay….but there are enough good players to do the event right now….and also by now, many casuals are good enough to do it.

It is true. It is also true however, that there’s still enough inexperienced/less skilled players to fail the event. And there is no way to make sure who participates and what they’ll end up doing.

Currently, the attempts on more populated servers are generally succesful (though there are occasional hiccups and even total failfests). Overflows however mostly fail.

As a sidenote, in addition to the standard “not enough players” issue, EU overflows are also plagued by the organizational problem most commonly known as ‘Not Everyone Speaks English". If you haven’t seen attempts to organize an overflow filled with english speakers, a large group of germans, some french and an odd Italian guild (most of them speaking only their own language), then you just can’t comprehend the issues involved (and in the mentioned case it wasn’t even that bad – sometimes the number of languages used can be much higher).