Guild Wars 2

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Syryn.7591:

And yes I did look up on the ceiling of her lair and tbh it does resemble The Great Destroyer………………………………………………………………………………………….resemble being the key word here.

If there is one thing that drawing does not resemble, it’s the Great Destroyer.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/images/thumb/9/9e/The_Great_Destroyer_concept_art.jpg/800px-The_Great_Destroyer_concept_art.jpg

Look at the head, totally different. The many legs, the body, the tail. Nothing of that can be found in the drawing. It also doesn’t resemble Primordus.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/images/5/53/Primordus.jpg

It’s a good thing I didn’t bring up Primordus as it being something that it resembled. However, it’s a stretch to draw conclusions that even YOU know what Primordus looks like considering the only time you’ve seen him he’s been dormant and very clearly not out in the open spreading his wings (if he has them), but rather mistaken for a statue by some asurans. All but his neck and head are obstructed from view completely.

Also, I beg to differ about The Great Destroyer (and yes, I already knew what it looked like, considering I made the connection, but thank you for your picture link). You’re correct the head is different, but as for the structure of the painting itself, it does have some similar aspects of The Great Destroyer in it, such as what looks to be very spiky appendages on what could be it’s under belly or maybe even a part of a wing meaning the torso of the beast isn’t depicted at all. But at the end of the day I don’t honestly think it’s The Great Destroyer, the dots were kind of there to represent how much of a stretch that was. My point is, you can’t really say it isn’t this or it is that because it’s very clearly an abstract, dream like drawing, of something that apparently scares a psychologically messed up individual. It could be anything. And I honestly don’t believe that the drawing under the table is just a random one thrown in. There’s a method to pretty much everything Scarlet does. And let’s be honest The Great Destroyer was …well, destroyed so it’s unlikely that the painting depicts it.

An important thing to note about the ceiling painting however, is that there is an area where it almost suggests there are “two heads”. Which honestly just makes this odd. It could also suggest that we never even make it past a certain area of the figure’s body before Scarlet starts redrawing the head and in a more uncontrolled fashion, evidenced by the shaky-ness of the ending of the drawing. The photo i’ve linked is of the middle of the drawing which has circled the top part of the figure’s head appearing once again halfway through the painting.

@Syryn : good finding for the heads. The great destroyer is dead for good and this painting is certainly not him.

Tom Gore.4035:

Ah now I get it. ANet will solve the other cities being graveyards by blowing up LA. Nice job

So what will be the next center of the world? My money is on DR.

I don’t think anet is ready to remove permanent content after all the whining about temporary content in the LW. My money is not on permanent destruction of LA.

Also, check the dialogue of this NPC : Agent Frovik

That’s a big hint for Scarlet’s next moves.

Well Scarlet having a base in the mists would certainly explain how she can build such amounts of large warmachinery without us being able to find her base.

And I see they did eventually add the bit about Scarlet to Beigarth’s dialogue. I hope they would have done that immediately when they released the short story.

Syryn.7591:

It’s a good thing I didn’t bring up Primordus as it being something that it resembled. However, it’s a stretch to draw conclusions that even YOU know what Primordus looks like considering the only time you’ve seen him he’s been dormant and very clearly not out in the open spreading his wings (if he has them), but rather mistaken for a statue by some asurans. All but his neck and head are obstructed from view completely.

I think that’s a pretty unfair argument. We get a really good look at the overall shape of Primordus, and we get a close up of his head. And since a totally different head is clearly visible in the ceiling painting, that gives you a lot of stuff for comparison.

Syryn.7591:

Also, I beg to differ about The Great Destroyer (and yes, I already knew what it looked like, considering I made the connection, but thank you for your picture link). You’re correct the head is different, but as for the structure of the painting itself, it does have some similar aspects of The Great Destroyer in it, such as what looks to be very spiky appendages on what could be it’s under belly or maybe even a part of a wing meaning the torso of the beast isn’t depicted at all.

It’s very difficult to get a good idea of what the body shape in the ceiling painting looks like. But it doesn’t seem to portray the trademark elongated neck of the Great Destroyer, nor the over sized body in comparison to his head. The spiky appendages could also be vines, because they look almost plant-like. Not to instantly draw conclusions about a certain jungle-dragon, but I do see plant-like tendencies. Then again, they could also be parts of a shattered wing, or the bones of a wing.

Syryn.7591:

My point is, you can’t really say it isn’t this or it is that because it’s very clearly an abstract, dream like drawing, of something that apparently scares a psychologically messed up individual. It could be anything.

True. However, the lair is littered with such dream imagery. So I would at least attach as much importance to the ceiling painting, as I would to anything else in her lair. I wouldn’t simply wave it away, it is rather prominently on display.

Syryn.7591:

And I honestly don’t believe that the drawing under the table is just a random one thrown in. There’s a method to pretty much everything Scarlet does.

I’m going to disagree with you there. She is mad, and does a lot of random things, as you said yourself earlier about the ceiling painting. Her attack on the Queens Pavilion for example, did not have much rhyme or reason to it.

Syryn.7591:

And let’s be honest The Great Destroyer was …well, destroyed so it’s unlikely that the painting depicts it.

Well bare in mind that we’re talking about the sketchings of someone who is having visions from a supposed other entity. If these visions are being sent to her by an Elder Dragon (like for example, Primordus) it would not matter if the Great Destroyer is destroyed.

Syryn.7591:

An important thing to note about the ceiling painting however, is that there is an area where it almost suggests there are “two heads”. Which honestly just makes this odd.

Yes I have heard people mention this before, but I personally don’t see it. All I see is a vague shape with one head, and tendrils.

See, if you see the whole painting as just one picture, it no longer seems to resemble a head at all. But don’t ask me what it IS supposed to represent. It could be anything really. Apart from the head, the rest of the body seems like a jumbled mess of bony appendages and spikes.

@Mad Queen Malafide: I personally don’t find it unfair at all, the general “shape” of Primordus is obstructed from view, you get an idea of size but no definition of shape. It’s becoming more and more clear that your interpretation of the painting is just different from mine. You see tendrils and thorns I see spiky appendages or whatever else.

It would sort of matter that the Great Destroyer is destroyed considering the ceiling image is more than likely what has been whispering to her in her dreams. The Great Destroyer is destroyed it can’t currently do anything. Like, taunt and whisper Scarlet while she sleeps. And we know what she saw in the mists due to the short story. This thing she has painted on her ceiling isn’t mentioned anywhere in it, and for what it resembles it seems a rather large subject to leave out.

Also let me make it clear that by me calling that ceiling painting “abstract” and “dream like” I am in no way saying that makes it random or less prevalent than anything else in that lair. So using that quote to make a point about the other drawing doesn’t fly, because it’s not what I meant at all.

Scarlet attacked Divinity’s Reach to prove a point – She pulls the strings, no one else. She infiltrated and reworked an entire army made to serve Queen Jennah – it was a ceremony about Humanity and it’s success and Scarlet used it as a stage to prove just how wrong that opinion was. It wasn’t random, and it didn’t not serve a purpose. It struck fear in a race that rather considered itself top dog at that point. The Marionette which is made in the image of a Watchwork Knight is quoted to be “Scarlet’s interpretation of the races of Tyria” (or was it just humans?) all being puppets. Which of course leads back to her short story of what she saw – and her resolution to pit the forces that influence her race to go this way or that against each other. Isn’t it funny that the Marionette also serves to represent her a tad after reading that journal?

We could make points all day for what we think that ceiling painting is, but in the end we’ll probably both be wrong. And as for not seeing the other head I very clearly circle it in the first photo, it’s nearly identical to the actual head of the drawing. The only thing it lacks is a lower jaw.

Also I enjoy this back and forth stuff, i’m awake at 6 am with coffee and really really bored and yeah.

edit: I tend to come off as aggressive when I type anything on the internet so don’t take it seriously if it seems that way, i’m sarcastic by nature and it tends to make me sound meaner than I am.

edit edit: me no good nice things

Syryn.7591:

@Mad Queen Malafide: I personally don’t find it unfair at all, the general “shape” of Primordus is obstructed from view, you get an idea of size but no definition of shape. It’s becoming more and more clear that your interpretation of the painting is just different from mine. You see tendrils and thorns I see spiky appendages or whatever else.

To be fair, I’m not quite sure what I’m looking at either. I personally hypothesize that Primordus is involved in all this, but I can’t ignore what seems like tendrils to me, and others have brought up the jungle dragon multiple times. But it might as well be bones, or spikes. Maybe it’s even flippers or legs.

Now what we see of Primordus is indeed mostly obscured by a rock wall. But we do get a good look at the head of Primordus in a close up.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/images/7/74/Ogden%27s_Benediction_cinematic_still2.jpg

As you can see in the picture, Primordus has a very pointy head. His nose has a spike on it, and a lot of spikes on his head point backward. We can clearly see none of such details in the ceiling painting.

Syryn.7591:

It would sort of matter that the Great Destroyer is destroyed considering the ceiling image is more than likely what has been whispering to her in her dreams.

I’m not ready to make that conclusion. The voice in her dreams could also be sending her images of the past and future, or maybe of its plans for a new champion. Scarlet might be catching fragments of those images, and drawing them. And in that respect, she could be drawing things from the past as well as the future. I don’t think the painting on the ceiling has to literally be the person speaking to her.

Syryn.7591:

The Great Destroyer is destroyed it can’t currently do anything. Like, taunt and whisper Scarlet while she sleeps.

Unless of course Primordus created a new champion.

Syryn.7591:

And we know what she saw in the mists due to the short story. This thing she has painted on her ceiling isn’t mentioned anywhere in it, and for what it resembles it seems a rather large subject to leave out.

True. However, she did speak of the dragons, and warn us how dangerous they are. It could be she’s drawing visions of the future. That would explain why she didn’t mention it in her journal. Perhaps she has terrible visions like that all the time.

Syryn.7591:

Also let me make it clear that by me calling that ceiling painting “abstract” and “dream like” I am in no way saying that makes it random or less prevalent than anything else in that lair. So using that quote to make a point about the other drawing doesn’t fly, because it’s not what I meant at all.

My mistake. I understand.

Syryn.7591:

The Marionette which is made in the image of a Watchwork Knight is quoted to be “Scarlet’s interpretation of the races of Tyria” (or was it just humans?) all being puppets. Which of course leads back to her short story of what she saw – and her resolution to pit the forces that influence her race to go this way or that against each other. Isn’t it funny that the Marionette also serves to represent her a tad after reading that journal?

I’d love to know where this is quoted, because I never read that quote before. But the marionette does indeed fit the motive of her seeing us as puppets.

Syryn.7591:

Also I enjoy this back and forth stuff, i’m awake at 6 am with coffee and really really bored and yeah.

edit: I tend to come off as aggressive when I type anything on the internet so don’t take it seriously if it seems that way, i’m sarcastic by nature and it tends to make me sound meaner than I am.

edit edit: me no good nice things

Don’t worry about it. I enjoy these little back and forths as well. In the end we’re all just in the dark about it all, and are trying to find meaning in a pile of red herrings. I’ve been wrong plenty of times before, and often get corrected when my knowledge of the lore is lacking. But like you, I try to examine these clues as well as possible. I have to remind myself not to get carried away by my own pet theory, as there are also plenty of hints to some of the other theories. (and when I say theory, I mean hypothesis )

I didn’t have time to read ALL of the posts, but I noticed a trend of thinking that E is a woman. From the short story Anet posted on the website, which is about Marjory in Divinities Reach, I got the impression that E was a man, and certainly not a asuran progeny since E held a dagger to Marjory’s throat

Scarlet lives in a trailer park in Kessex Hills. You all failed to recognize her because she wears glasses when not actively attacking.

Steel Fenrir.2791:

I noticed there’s a pin in the Tyrian map in Scarlett’s lair. I looked around, and the only significant landmarks I found near the pinpoint area are the Luminates power plant and the Hylek and Nightmare Court camps. I don’t know if this place will be significant in the future or anything. Of those, I think the Luminates plant is pretty significant since it has been said that is has power comparable to the power plant in Rata Sum.

All I see is the Eye of Sauron. Calling it now, Scarlet is really a being controlled by Sauron.

Maybe the dragon on the ceiling is to tell us she had more to do with Tequatl than we realized. The head is pretty-tequatl-esque, and the bones hanging out everywhere fits the appearance of undead dragons better than any of the other champions we’ve seen…

I have a feeling primordus could be behind this. Its meant to wake up 1120 AE,
1 year after zhaitan. And he lives under the ground which could explain the machine.
Little is known about Mordremoth but since hes the jungle dragon. It could be the mastermind behind a mad sylvari. Gamarien Wyld Hunt is to battle the darkness in Wychmire Swamp and he fear a much darker force than nightmare court lives there.
Which means jungle dragon could be somewhere in the grove or twilight arbor.

Didn’t Colin say in an interview that they would make the jungle dragon first?

Naus the Gobbo.5172:

Didn’t Colin say in an interview that they would make the jungle dragon first?

He said that Kralkatorrik and the Jungle Dragon are good possible candidates for a first expansion. AN isn’t working on an expansion. That said, they have said they wanted to replace expansion content with the living story. So whether or not that’s what they’re planning is really up in the air.

I still think its the Jungle Dragon and that the Jungle Dragon is tied to the Pale Tree. It’s makes a lot of sense that after diving into the essence of the Pale Tree and discovering its true nature, Scarlett begins being harassed by the Dragon that created it.

There are some serious problems with this though. For starters, the Jungle Dragon is likely sleeping under the Maguuma Wastes based on what Colin said in that interview. And according to Scarlett’s projector, whatever she’s gunning for is under Lion’s Arch.

It seems really strange and it’d be really sloppy for Scarlett, a character who’s focused around the Pale Tree and motivated by her desire to be liberated from it, suddenly gets harassed by Primordus or some other random entity that’s completely unrelated.

@Mad Queen Malafide: I sent you a pm just in case you don’t see this but

http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/01/14/exclusive-preview-of-guild-wars-2s-origin-of-madness-release/

This is where I saw the whole “the marionette personifies Scarlet’s opinion of Tyria blah blah” at.

And yes! I thought about it after a while and Primordus can very well just create a new champion in the shape of the Great Destroyer, which isn’t a stretch at all.

At this point I don’t know if i’ll be more excited about it being a dragon update or something completely different out of the blue. I just want the next update already…i’m getting antsy. We have steam creatures, alliances, portals, a massive weapon’s test, Taimi (favorite new add by the way). There are so many things about Scarlet that just throw things up in the air and hopefully the next update will take steps in explaining a bit more.

Wait, is the Jungle Dragon confirmed? O.o

Well I don’t feel like going back and finding the post that linked this reddit thread (are they called threads? I don’t use reddit at all) but that theory on it all being Dhuum behind it all is pretty interesting and convincing.

Syryn.7591:

skullmount.1758:

Well I don’t feel like going back and finding the post that linked this reddit thread (are they called threads? I don’t use reddit at all) but that theory on it all being Dhuum behind it all is pretty interesting and convincing.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/1w6rdi/quick_attempt_at_connecting_a_couple_dots/

??? Thats the one I linked to. Did it not display something you wrote?

The Kurt.2518:

Wait, is the Jungle Dragon confirmed? O.o

He slipped up in an interview and mentioned a Jungle Dragon which people have since speculated (and honestly I don’t know why they even try at this point it’s obvious a jungle dragon exists) that he actually meant Primordus for whatever reason they have come up with.

CoE, The Thaumanova Reactor, Subject Alpha’s attacks, and accounts found in the Library of the Durmond Priory including some dialogue from members of the Priory ALL point to there being a SIXTH Elder Dragon.

I’m torn…I’m seeing hints at three different dragons in this update.

Scarlet’s journal has some wording that has me wondering if it could be Bubbles. “Sea of darkness” could be literal, and then later it mentions an abyss, which is theoretically Bubbles’s domain in the Unending Ocean.

But then, the line that mentions the “forest” very directly seems to indicate Mordremoth’s involvement.

BUT why would Scarlet need a giant sky drill to reach either of those dragons? That makes me think it’s Primordus.

Hmm…possibilities.

I want it to be either Bubbles or Primordus so we either remove the barrier to Cantha, or sidestep the barrier (Asura tunnels). Not saying we’d see Cantha right away, but it makes it more feasible if there’s an established route to get there.

EDIT: If it is Dhuum => BRING BACK UW!!!

skullmount.1758:

Syryn.7591:

skullmount.1758:

Well I don’t feel like going back and finding the post that linked this reddit thread (are they called threads? I don’t use reddit at all) but that theory on it all being Dhuum behind it all is pretty interesting and convincing.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/1w6rdi/quick_attempt_at_connecting_a_couple_dots/

??? Thats the one I linked to. Did it not display something you wrote?

no it’s broken for me
the link that is, maybe it’s just my computer idk

edit: ok it works now it made me think it was broken earlier <.<

I’ll make it short. Scarlet hates life being controlled by other forces. If we assume that Sylvari are in truth minions of Mordremoth ( which Ventaris tablet prevented for the Sylvari of the Pale Tree), then she will try to destroy said Mordremoth. To achieve this she will dig out Primordus and send the two dragons at each others throats. The winner can be taken out by her vast army.

If you like stuff like that: Scarlet for Primordus and Briar for Mordremoth.

Steel Fenrir.2791:

I noticed there’s a pin in the Tyrian map in Scarlett’s lair. I looked around, and the only significant landmarks I found near the pinpoint area are the Luminates power plant and the Hylek and Nightmare Court camps. I don’t know if this place will be significant in the future or anything. Of those, I think the Luminates plant is pretty significant since it has been said that is has power comparable to the power plant in Rata Sum.

The spot on the map marks the village of the Soundless. A sate of bein that Scarlet aspires.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

lnguy.5127:

2. The Pale Tree could be Modremoth champion, might have fallen off of Modremoth’s path due to the influence from Ventari’s teachings.

No it couldn’t. The Elder Dragons existed long before the Pale Tree even came into existence, and have been sleeping ever since. Somewhere before they started awakening, Ronan found a cave with seeds, and took one with him, which he planted in what is now the Grove (Arbor Bay back then). It is only years after the seed had been planted, that the Elder Dragons started awakening, starting with Primordus.

So how could the Pale Tree possibly be a dragon champion?

If Mordremoth was still asleep, like all Elder Dragons, how could Ronan find a seed belonging to Mordremoth? Are Elder Dragons just spawning new champions while they are asleep? And were all these seeds potential champions of Mordremoth? In which case, how did Ronan and Ventari give this champion free will? They didn’t do any special magical rituals. All they did was plant the seed symbolically, and then write a marble tablet. It was their attitudes and philosophy that affected the Pale Tree…. but that is not enough to liberate a Dragon Champion from its master!

If that were the case, why aren’t we all crafting our own marble tablets with words of peace and harmony, and liberating the Claw of Jormag, or Tequatl? If it were that easy to turn a dedicated servant of one of the Elder Dragons from evil to good, it would kind of make a mockery out of the Elder Dragons and their powers.

Once someone serves an Elder Dragon, it takes considerable magic to free them, as we know from when Glint was liberated. It is not something that can simply be undone. Jora had to kill her brother to free him, it was the only way. The Pale Tree cannot be a champion of Mordremoth.

For this very same reason, the Pale Tree can also not be an Elder Dragon itself. That was simply a hypothesis put forward by WoodenPotatoes and his videos, who reads a lot of lore discussions and borrows from them. He is however not as knowledgeable about lore as the lore community. But this theory has been shot down multiple times.

I don’t know if you played GW1. During Eye of the North, players fought the Great Destroyers, a champion of Primordus, which was before Primordus awakened. So to answer your question, yes the Elders Dragons can send out champions before they wake up. I never mentioned anything about the Pale Tree being an elder dragon so I don’t know what the point of that comment was. We don’t know for sure the specific mechanisms of how each champion is created by each Elder Dragon so one cannot rule out my theory for sure. Seeds (the Pale Trees) are young and can be easily influenced by whoever raise them (Ventari and Ronan) [the old nature vs nurture debate].

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Cormac.3871:

The idea that the pale tree is the result of a seed intended for dragon minions makes sense, and I agree that it is probably Mordremoth. The Nightmare Court / Mother dichotomy is a nature / nurture thing. The Mother sees her role as fighting the dark influence by controlling the pale tree’s children, whereas the Nightmare court are either wittingly or not preparing to serve a new master, the dragon.

Scarlet’s plan is to somehow remove the dragon’s influence, possibly by killing it. I also have a feeling that the Mother is intended to be a Champion, and is linked to the dragon, and that what Scarlet intends to do to the dragon won’t be good for the Mother. If successful the Sylvari would lose both the malignant influence of the dragon and the gentle guidance of the mother. Scarlet intends to fill that void.

Freeing a Dragon Champion from it’s link to an Elder Dragon requires considerable magic, and a rare ritual that only the Forgotten know of. Which is something that never happened to the Pale Tree or its seed, as far as we know.

Plus Sylvari can’t be corrupted, while we know that dragon minions CAN be corrupted by other dragons. So they aren’t dragon minions. It’s as simple as that.

Sylvari can’t be corrupted, and why’s that? Of interesting note, can one ED corrupt another ED minions and turn them into their own minions?

Random theories here.
What if the X’s mark secret lairs? I really want to got to each location and see if we are missing something else. The Sewers of Lions Arch, has anyone been down there recently?

The UFO is almost for sure the “Drill” but then why is it upside down in the sky? Maybe because its not a drill, its a laser. When you fail Mari, its like a targeting system zeroes in on you and then you get blasted. Is the beam from Mari bouncing off something else up there and targeting us all?

Maybe she is drawing all the dragons to LA? Bubbles, from the SW, Mordremoth from the NW, Jormag from the North, Kalktorik (sp?) from the SE, and Primordus from below LA to have them fight each other and Destroy LA in the process? Then she plans to kill them all with Mari?

I agree with some of the others I think she may be a twisted Trehanne. The Aether’s are a twisted Pact. Molten alliance seem just a step away from followers of Primordus (flame legion want a god, the Dredge hate Primordus primary enemies.) I have begun to wonder if the krait prophets where actually Dragon minions and the obelisk tied to it and I think the Nightmare is from Mordremoth. Scarlet seems to be forging a Dragon servant “Pact” which she intends to lead in service for/against all the Dragons.

I also consider maybe there is more to the Queens bash. What if…Jeena wasn’t rescued from Caduesces(sp?) manor? What if an impostor/Agent of the Muarsat is hiding the fact that a mesmer illusion is leading DR? What if the Watchknights went “crazy” cause they hired her to make Jeena look bad. What if The Shinning Blade had been infiltrated ages ago by Lazerus, the current Mesmer leader could easily hide the fact that Jeena is gone if she was inclined. In the opening ceremonies the SB Leader mentions that Scarlet did just what she would do. She also messes with Logan and the Watchknights had the ability to intimate other creatures. She also is now preventing Logan from getting close to the Queen. Remember right after Caduces(sp?) manor the Queen sends Logan off to help DE. Where was the Shinning Blade at the manor? Why was the Queen even remotely threatened? The Mesmer illision was so good, a noble at close range couldn’t tell it was an illusion until it “popped.”

Has anyone considered the possibility that Scarlet is suffering from “Baelfire Syndrome”? I mean she apparently wants to live independently from influences, which being a god would come quite close to achieving, and she IS trying to acces the mists, isn’t she?

lnguy.5127:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Cormac.3871:

The idea that the pale tree is the result of a seed intended for dragon minions makes sense, and I agree that it is probably Mordremoth. The Nightmare Court / Mother dichotomy is a nature / nurture thing. The Mother sees her role as fighting the dark influence by controlling the pale tree’s children, whereas the Nightmare court are either wittingly or not preparing to serve a new master, the dragon.

Scarlet’s plan is to somehow remove the dragon’s influence, possibly by killing it. I also have a feeling that the Mother is intended to be a Champion, and is linked to the dragon, and that what Scarlet intends to do to the dragon won’t be good for the Mother. If successful the Sylvari would lose both the malignant influence of the dragon and the gentle guidance of the mother. Scarlet intends to fill that void.

Freeing a Dragon Champion from it’s link to an Elder Dragon requires considerable magic, and a rare ritual that only the Forgotten know of. Which is something that never happened to the Pale Tree or its seed, as far as we know.

Plus Sylvari can’t be corrupted, while we know that dragon minions CAN be corrupted by other dragons. So they aren’t dragon minions. It’s as simple as that.

Sylvari can’t be corrupted, and why’s that? Of interesting note, can one ED corrupt another ED minions and turn them into their own minions?

See Subject Alpha.

Volstag.6371:

Random theories here.
What if the X’s mark secret lairs? I really want to got to each location and see if we are missing something else. The Sewers of Lions Arch, has anyone been down there recently?

The X’s mark the locations of the order headquarters and something in LA near the Southsun Asura gate. I did consider that there might be lairs at each of these locations, and spent some time swimming around in Lions Arch. I got very excited when my head passed through a rock, but I didn’t manage to find anything in the end.

lnguy.5127:

Sylvari can’t be corrupted, and why’s that?

Because it kills them.

lnguy.5127:

Of interesting note, can one ED corrupt another ED minions and turn them into their own minions?

Yes, see Subject Alpha. So, Sylvari are not dragon minions.

lnguy.5127:

I don’t know if you played GW1. During Eye of the North, players fought the Great Destroyers, a champion of Primordus, which was before Primordus awakened. So to answer your question, yes the Elders Dragons can send out champions before they wake up.

Of course, but all of those champions are born as dedicated servants of their respective masters. No Elder Dragon spawns minions that have free will. That defeats the purpose of spawning minions.

lnguy.5127:

Seeds (the Pale Trees) are young and can be easily influenced by whoever raise them (Ventari and Ronan) [the old nature vs nurture debate].

Dragon minions however, cannot be influenced. Once you become a dragon minion, you are completely and utterly dedicated to the Elder Dragon you are serving.

I don’t really know if a genetically engineered inquest experiment with dragon magic really answers the question of whether or not one dragon minion can corrupt another, all Subject Alpha proves is that they can be combined. Combining doesn’t imply that one specific corruption takes over another, they’re coexisting within Subject Alpha. In the world outside of the test tube lab that is CoE there has not been one instance of one Elder Dragon’s minions being corrupted by another Elder Dragon.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

lnguy.5127:

Sylvari can’t be corrupted, and why’s that?

Because it kills them.

lnguy.5127:

Of interesting note, can one ED corrupt another ED minions and turn them into their own minions?

Yes, see Subject Alpha. So, Sylvari are not dragon minions.

Subject Alpha was experimented on by the Inquests by combining/sewing different ED minions into one. You cannot assert this into arguing that one ED minions can be corrupted by another ED and be under the control of that ED. Subject Alpha is not being controlled by any one ED in particular.

Also if one ED is able to corrupt and control another ED minions, then wouldn’t that imply that ED is stronger? Any evidence in lore that one ED is stronger than another?

You are assuming that the mechanics of creating champions by each of the EDs are the same. You need to give evidence in-game/lore to support this. Each champion controls their own minions and the ED control the champions therefore “controlling” the minions. So if a champion fall from and ED path, it only makes sense that the minions under the champion’s control stay with them.

Again, we see with Glint that a champion can be freed of an ED control. And there’s nothing in game or in lore stating that ONLY a “ritual” can free a champion from an ED (referring to how the Forgotten freed Glint).

lnguy.5127:

Subject Alpha was experimented on by the Inquests by combining/sewing different ED minions into one. You cannot assert this into arguing that one ED minions can be corrupted by another ED and be under the control of that ED. Subject Alpha is not being controlled by any one ED in particular.

Well actually you can. It shows that the different draconic energies do not cancel each other out. You have to see this argument in context, we know that Sylvari cannot be corrupted, because apparently it kills them.

lnguy.5127:

Also if one ED is able to corrupt and control another ED minions, then wouldn’t that imply that ED is stronger? Any evidence in lore that one ED is stronger than another?

It’s hard to make any statements about this, since we’ve only fought one Elder Dragon, and they seem to share a common goal (consuming all live/magic). So since they never fight each other, it is impossible to say if one is stronger than another.

Josh Foreman.8250:

Wow. Nice to see all the time and thought I put into the details of the room are being noticed and appreciated! Thanks!

Thank you for the awesome design for all of our speculations.

lnguy.5127:

Of interesting note, can one ED corrupt another ED minions and turn them into their own minions?

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Yes, see Subject Alpha. So, Sylvari are not dragon minions.

Sylvai are not yet proven to be Dragon Minions. Not the same thing at all .

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

No Elder Dragon spawns minions that have free will. That defeats the purpose of spawning minions.

The Sons of Svanir have a few words to add on this subject.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Dragon minions however, cannot be influenced. Once you become a dragon minion, you are completely and utterly dedicated to the Elder Dragon you are serving.

Glint disagrees, spectacularly.

And I do believe we’ve seen a few Risen resist Zaitan at opportune times.

the jetpack dolyak was nice but it didn’t have a cowbell
mroar cowbell

So you were the one who designed the room, Josh? I should have known.

Josh Foreman.8250:

Wow. Nice to see all the time and thought I put into the details of the room are being noticed and appreciated! Thanks!

You can’t expect the community to stay quiet when you teased us with a piece of lore :P

@Queen: Subject Alpha is an experiment cooked up in a lab and it doesn’t seem like it can be controlled by anything or anyone. It is dubious to infer what the Inquests did to Subject Alpha in a lab to say that an ED can corrupt and control another ED’s minions.

From in-game and lore, we already have two different ways of how EDs create their minions. Kralkatorrik did this by corrupting and transforming LIVING creatures into their minions (only Almorra Soulkeeper survived this). While Zhaitan kill and/or use dead bodies and raise them up to be undead and be under his control. There may be a third way with Jormag, it seems like its minions/followers have to be willing to ACCEPT its power to be transformed (e.g. Svanir).

So Zhaitan raise up DEAD bodies to be undead in order to be his minions. So if Sylvari dies if infuse/corrupt with dragonic energies (which I don’t remember seeing this in game or lore). Then it doesn’t make any sense because that’s precisely what Zhaitan need to be his minions which is DEAD, SOULLESS bodies. There are NO undead Sylvari, this is stronger evident to support the theory that the Pale Tree COULD be Mordremoth’s champ (making Sylvari its minions) that broke free from its control, and that EDs cannot corrupt/control each other’s minions therefore we do not see any undead sylvari.

Also, if EDs can corrupt and control each other’s minions. We should see this in-game to the point of each ED waging war on each other because:

1. Subject Alpha is very powerful due to having all dragonic magics in him. So, it’s reasonable that each ED would want to corrupt each other’s minions to create a more powerful minion under its control.

2. EDs are ancient powerful creatures that only want destruction and consume magic. So where are the most powerful sources of magic? Why the EDs of course! So why aren’t they try to consume each other? So there must be something within each one of them that prevent them from doing this?

Cormac.3871:

Volstag.6371:

Random theories here.
What if the X’s mark secret lairs? I really want to got to each location and see if we are missing something else. The Sewers of Lions Arch, has anyone been down there recently?

The X’s mark the locations of the order headquarters and something in LA near the Southsun Asura gate. I did consider that there might be lairs at each of these locations, and spent some time swimming around in Lions Arch. I got very excited when my head passed through a rock, but I didn’t manage to find anything in the end.

The “something in LA” has to be the Consortium, am i right?

Mikuchan.7261:

The Xes doesn’t have to be targets. They could be her secret bases she may have to gather information.
She has one right under the Durmand Priory which is obviously because it’s close to an immense source of knowledge. The same could apply for the other orders.
Lion’s Arch is the city that has the most knowledge about dragons and about killing them, so she would want to have knowledge of that as well.

The drill, wouldn’t make sense to drive that into either of the orders or Lion’s arch.
She’s after the dragons, not us.

The marionette is a weapons test and she probably tipped the Priory of it herself in order to draw people there to test the power of her weapon. After all she asks us -not- to die or give up as opposed to before when she has been all like “die die die, die die die”.

Fairly sure she’s building an anti-dragon kitten nal.

The it would have made more sense to test it on one of the dragon champions rather than piles of non-dragons.

Josh Foreman.8250:

Wow. Nice to see all the time and thought I put into the details of the room are being noticed and appreciated! Thanks!

WHAT DOES IT MEEEANNNNNNNN
we’re dying over here!

Then explain Shiny, Glint’s only known child. Those eggs were laid after she was freed from corruption. (It had to be. Corrupted entities are sterile, save the first dragon in gw1)

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

digiowl.9620:

Nature is season based. As such the seeds found could be preparation for the next awakening (season). But by planting one ahead of time it was allowed to sprout before the dragon could assert it control.

If an Elder Dragon spawns seeds, they are already corrupted. Jormag did not need to awake, to allow his champion to corrupt the mind of Svanir for example. And Primordus was quite capable of awakening The Great Destroyer first, and having him a build an army of dedicated servants. The Elder Dragons do not need to be awake yet to assert control over creatures.

There is something going on in Divinity’s Reach, and it might very well be something with the Queen… E did tell Marjory that there’s some serious business going on, in that short story that was released quite some time ago, I should probably read through it again :)

How about Scarlet Briar is an agent of Mad King Thorn? Briar… Thorn… madness and the mists… would make sense huh? Shes about to create her own Candy Dragon out of the Mad Clocktower and then shell power her own generation of steam clockwork sylvari with it. Shes gonna break the next seal, youll see.. ^^

This is isn’t Primordus or any human gods behind all of this, there are much more proofs of it being Mordremoth:

-The original Mordremoth design and the toxic hybrid design are similar, http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:Champion_Toxic_Hybrid.jpg http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:Dragon_15_concept_art.jpg except the hybrid doesn’t look like a dragon, yet it proves that Scarlet didn’t make an alliance between the Krait and Nightmare Court for no reason as she wanted to recreate the monster that she saw in her nightmare
- The husks are Mordremoth minions, the boss that you fight in path 2 of COE proves it, and so are the Great Jungle Wurms that came from the depths.
- The Karkas that became mad in Southsun Cove because of a toxic plant that Scarlet used again to create toxic spores.
- The prologue of the Sylvari personal story is interesting, because you actually fight some sort of unknown jungle dragon champion http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcV_-sFTtZ8

Nike.2631:

Sylvai are not yet proven to be Dragon Minions. Not the same thing at all .

No they are not. Which this example illustrates. If Sylvari die, instead of being corrupted, then they can’t be dragon minions.

Nike.2631:

The Sons of Svanir have a few words to add on this subject.

The Sons of Svanir are not dragon minions, they are cultists.

Nike.2631:

Glint disagrees, spectacularly.

No Glint confirms it spectacularly. Glint had to be given back her free will through a ritual by the Forgotten.

Nike.2631:

And I do believe we’ve seen a few Risen resist Zaitan at opportune times.

No we haven’t. But some of his minions join him willingly, and thus do not need to be turned into mindless subjects. This allows them to still make decisions for themselves.

lnguy.5127:

@Queen: Subject Alpha is an experiment cooked up in a lab and it doesn’t seem like it can be controlled by anything or anyone. It is dubious to infer what the Inquests did to Subject Alpha in a lab to say that an ED can corrupt and control another ED’s minions.

You are failing to understand the actual argument. We know Sylvari die, instead of being corrupted. However, Subject Alpha shows that different draconic energies can be combined without killing the subject. In other words, Sylvari aren’t dragon minions, or they wouldn’t die from corruption.

Additionally, we know that every dragon minion is completely and utterly devoted to it’s master, and has no free will (Sons of Svanir are not dragon minions, and some Risen join willingly and thus retain free will). Glint was the only dragon champion that we know of, that was given back it’s free will by the Forgotten. Svanir shows that the only other alternative, is death. So Sylvari can’t be dragon minions, they have free will!

lnguy.5127:

There may be a third way with Jormag, it seems like its minions/followers have to be willing to ACCEPT its power to be transformed (e.g. Svanir).

Svanir became a champion for Jormag willingly while Jormag was sleeping, but that doesn’t mean that all of Jormag’s minions are willingly converted. Besides, it was a champion of Jormag that was sleeping underneath the ice, that did the actual converting. Jormag has powerful mental abilities, that alter people’s way of thinking. It is NOT an established fact that ALL of Jormag’s minions join him willingly. When a dragon has such a powerful force of will, one has to wonder if free will is still even a factor.

Josh Foreman.8250:

Wow. Nice to see all the time and thought I put into the details of the room are being noticed and appreciated! Thanks!

I’m really happy to see more plot, and we love to analyze these things. This update gave us a lot to examine. Although I do feel like we’re kind of fishing in a barrel of red herrings. Can you comment at all on whether anyone has guessed Scarlet’s plan correctly yet?

Josh Foreman.8250:

Wow. Nice to see all the time and thought I put into the details of the room are being noticed and appreciated! Thanks!

The nice thing about video game is that everything exists for a reason.

That’s what I like to keep in mind when I’m trying to guess what nasty monsters you guys will throw at us

digiowl.9620:

FenrirSlakt.3692:

And thus, the hate for Scarlet diminishes by a bit.

If only it had not taken half a year to get to this point…

It’s called a slow burn

The Pale Tree was NOT a dragon champion. For one, she was planted as a seed, so she had no life prior to that. Second, there is no natural way to break the mental control the Elder Dragons have over their minions. So no amount of happy thoughts and singing Kumbaya will ever convert them. They are fanatical in their devotion to them, and their thought process is strictly “with us (minion of the same dragon) or against us (everything else)”.

The only way Glint was able too escape was because the Forgotten forcefully captured her, and they used an obscure ritual to break the connection. She empathy afterwards came from her telepathy. She as able to look into the hearts and minds of the mortal races, and she decided that she would do all she could to protect them.