Guild Wars 2

@ phys: i’m sorry to hear that ur main server seems to be as unreliable as an overflow- are they concentrating on the wurm first maybe?

On Gandara, we take down the marionette pretty much every time now and i know ppl guest to us just to get it done ( i think they guest to other successful servers too, like deso).

Josh Foreman.8250:

Qaelyn.7612:

let people on platforms who have already completed help out with other platforms

We tried really hard to get this in. Every solution we came up with had technical constraints.

Why not take the invisible walls down between platforms so that the adjacent plats that are done can at least help out the ones in trouble? I know this is possible because on one of my early attempts at marionette my platform finished early and so I thought “hey, why not help the guys next to me out” so I started blasting the boss on the platform next to me. It WORKED. I was actually hitting and damaging their boss. I actually thought this was normal and was very surprised the next time I went in and couldn’t help the platform next to me. I suppose it was a bug, but obviously a good one.

xarallei.4279:

Josh Foreman.8250:

Qaelyn.7612:

let people on platforms who have already completed help out with other platforms

We tried really hard to get this in. Every solution we came up with had technical constraints.

Why not take the invisible walls down between platforms so that the adjacent plats that are done can at least help out the ones in trouble? I know this is possible because on one of my early attempts at marionette my platform finished early and so I thought “hey, why not help the guys next to me out” so I started blasting the boss on the platform next to me. It WORKED. I was actually hitting and damaging their boss. I actually thought this was normal and was very surprised the next time I went in and couldn’t help the platform next to me. I suppose it was a bug, but obviously a good one.

There are a handful of skills that do work on the platform next to yours. Guardian staff auto attack and Elementalist Scepter #2 attack (in fire attunement) Dragon Tooth are two that I know of right now. You can also try to give aoe buffs to the people on the platform next to you.

Fallout.1798:

xarallei.4279:

Josh Foreman.8250:

Qaelyn.7612:

let people on platforms who have already completed help out with other platforms

We tried really hard to get this in. Every solution we came up with had technical constraints.

Why not take the invisible walls down between platforms so that the adjacent plats that are done can at least help out the ones in trouble? I know this is possible because on one of my early attempts at marionette my platform finished early and so I thought “hey, why not help the guys next to me out” so I started blasting the boss on the platform next to me. It WORKED. I was actually hitting and damaging their boss. I actually thought this was normal and was very surprised the next time I went in and couldn’t help the platform next to me. I suppose it was a bug, but obviously a good one.

There are a handful of skills that do work on the platform next to yours. Guardian staff auto attack and Elementalist Scepter #2 attack (in fire attunement) Dragon Tooth are two that I know of right now. You can also try to give aoe buffs to the people on the platform next to you.

I am expecting either a nerf or a buff for this If they decide to nerf it then I will be severely disappointed. If they buff it, then kudos to Anet.

Josh Foreman.8250:

And as with any group activity, virtual or real life, there is luck inherent in that. Some people hate that dynamic and some love it. If someone has an idea about how to ameliorate the inherent luck factor in group events, please speak up!

Hi Josh!

Speaking only about the Marionette battle, I think it would have been a good idea if winning platforms could go assist struggling platforms once they have destroyed their own regulator. For instance, say that platform 1 finishes early. The barrier between 1 and 2 now weakens so that players from 1 can jump over to 2 and help out. Once platform 2 is complete, they can go help out platform 3 etc. etc. This would allow the entire lane’s group to all pull together, rather than knowing that “players XYZ caused the failure. It’s all their fault.”

P.S. When’s SAB World 3 coming?

Zaxares.5419:

Josh Foreman.8250:

And as with any group activity, virtual or real life, there is luck inherent in that. Some people hate that dynamic and some love it. If someone has an idea about how to ameliorate the inherent luck factor in group events, please speak up!

Hi Josh!

Speaking only about the Marionette battle, I think it would have been a good idea if winning platforms could go assist struggling platforms once they have destroyed their own regulator. For instance, say that platform 1 finishes early. The barrier between 1 and 2 now weakens so that players from 1 can jump over to 2 and help out. Once platform 2 is complete, they can go help out platform 3 etc. etc. This would allow the entire lane’s group to all pull together, rather than knowing that “players XYZ caused the failure. It’s all their fault.”

P.S. When’s SAB World 3 coming?

I think the problem is that both shields would have to be weakened, but that would enable players from the adjacent platform to get off it, too, even though they might not have “earned that right” by defeating the warden yet. There isn’t just one, but two shields to consider, plus how do you prevent the warden from leaving its designated platform without enabling the players to merrily snipe away at it from afar?

As someone who has beaten Marionette maybe 5 times thus far, I think I can honestly say that the success rate is far above 1/10. 50/50 seems about right with in my personal experience, and I think that is fine for this kind of content.

Almost all my fails have come on the 5th and final phase too, so I think the community as a whole has the majority pretty much down pat.. just the last one can be tricky if people panic and scatter.

Josh Foreman.8250:

StriderShinryu.6923:

I suppose what it boils down to with me is a question of why the content needs to be an elite level challenge in the first place. Would it really be all that bad if an average group of players could win?

Not at all. The Marionette was not designed to be beaten only by “elite” players. We have an idea of where the average player is skill-wise, and placed the bar where we hoped would just a tad above that, in the hopes that they would have to stretch a bit. That stretching creates tension, which is the sweet spot in event-type content as far as I’m concerned. (as opposed to the abnegation style smooth sailing content that most of an MMO needs to be.) Without the tension new things get boring faster. Too much tension, (as seems to be your case) and people give up and the content is wasted on them. That seems to be your argument about this event.

Because the player base is a diverse lot, ANY amount of tension will frustrate SOME amount, causing them to be turned off. So fundamentally we have to ask ourselves if we want to ever ask the player to stretch, or keep them all in a happy abnegated state of chillaxing. Does the benefit to those who want some tension from time to time outweigh the frustration of those who don’t?

The other question that I hope is answered in the positive is this: Can the average player skill be raised by challenging content like this? We know that X% of players don’t know about traits. We know Y% never swap out their 7-0 skills to accommodate specific challenges. And there are probably dozens of other systems that go unused by some portion of the player-base. If even 10% of that group hits a challenge like the Marionette and the subsequent tension causes them to look into these systems and they learn a new depth to the game they otherwise never would have, I think that’s a win for everybody. The average skill level rises, and in turn, we devs can make more interesting events that utilize the depth of the systems we have.

Having said all that, if after a week the Marionette is still only being beaten 1 out of 10 times, then I would say we may have tuned it a bit too difficult. On the other hand, we don’t know how long it takes for the aggregate skill level of the player-base to grow. I don’t know how long it takes for information about traits and builds to disseminate to those who had previously never looked into them. As with all our content, we are closely watching and noting these things so that every future project can learn from it.

P.S. Because several people brought up the idea of buffing the other platforms when one succeeds, I thought I ought to let you all know that this has always been the case. When one platform’s power regulator is destroyed the players on the platforms adjacent get Electrify Aura which gives 60 seconds of protection, swiftness, regeneration, fury, might, vigor and retaliation.

If you want only people of a certain skill level or so involved to change their build for every fight I suggest you introduce a licence system that in the event of failure you cannot play this game as you are not deemed good enough for the game.This is elitism in its purest form.

I can do without this type of manipulation, I get enough at work thanks very much.

This idea of yours may work better with parity in the servers but that was destroyed by the cash grab for server transfers & the game is showing many signs of the damage that has caused. Keep creating this content for the big servers at the risk of losing many of your player base .ATM a lot of us are feeling very left out in the race to please the top end of town

Josh Foreman.8250:

Can the average player skill be raised by challenging content like this?

I truly wish devs and players alike would stop trying to force other players to “get better at the game”.

If the average players wants to improve their skills, they will improve their skills. What you’re trying to do is force people to improve their skills. And yes, it is forcing because if they don’t get better, then they don’t get to take part in the content and take part in the rewards.

High failure isn’t fun. Tension isn’t fun. Feeling hopelessness and dread because your server can never muster the numbers to have a shot at success isn’t fun. Feeling like you’re being forced to get better isn’t fun.

There are still so many issues like server population that you guys just aren’t taking into account, and yet you’re still trying to make these gigantic events that require more and more skill each time. Eventually, you’re going to be excluding too many players all in the name of “challenge” and “skill”.

I think a lot of the frustration originates from standing there and being forced to watch others struggle and fail and being punished for it.
A lot of the replies here are quite harsh and unjustified in my opinion.
Trying to raise the skill-level of the playerbase is an awesome idea. A lot of people try to do this by explaining the event and the specific champions beforehand. Yet, we are faced with ignorant people who will yell at you if you try to tell them how they can improve. They want to keep doing the same thing.
@possessed.2036 I understand your frustration on not willing to be forced to change to a specific form of fighting. The opinion of others is however that it’s to overcome an obstacle and to reach a goal. There are thus two options in my opinion, either you say the goal isn’t your goal and you don’t bother with the event and play how you like. Or if you do want to reach that goal, why is this obstacle such a problem? Isn’t that what makes things an achievement, being able to overcome an obstacle?

Red Queen.7915:

I think the problem is that both shields would have to be weakened, but that would enable players from the adjacent platform to get off it, too, even though they might not have “earned that right” by defeating the warden yet. There isn’t just one, but two shields to consider, plus how do you prevent the warden from leaving its designated platform without enabling the players to merrily snipe away at it from afar?

Mmm, good point. I hadn’t considered that. Perhaps moving from one platform to the next is one way only? That would prevent players on the weaker platform from just jumping to the new platform and doing what you suggested.

Josh Foreman.8250:

P.S. Because several people brought up the idea of buffing the other platforms when one succeeds, I thought I ought to let you all know that this has always been the case. When one platform’s power regulator is destroyed the players on the platforms adjacent get Electrify Aura which gives 60 seconds of protection, swiftness, regeneration, fury, might, vigor and retaliation.

Really? Huh. I can’t say I’ve ever seen that. Maybe things were just too hectic for me to notice. XD

With regards to “improving player skill”, I think that’s a good idea in theory. I’d actually go so far to say that the Mari fight is nicely balanced in such a way as to do that.

The problem here, however, is that since the Mari fight is temporary, there really isn’t much time for the players to learn. The looming spectre of “temporary content” hanging over everybody’s head means everybody wants to beat it all the time, as often as possible, before it’s gone. (In contrast, things are much more relaxed at the Wurm, where people know they can just try again at the next fight.)

Josh Foreman.8250:

The other question that I hope is answered in the positive is this: Can the average player skill be raised by challenging content like this? We know that X% of players don’t know about traits. We know Y% never swap out their 7-0 skills to accommodate specific challenges. And there are probably dozens of other systems that go unused by some portion of the player-base. If even 10% of that group hits a challenge like the Marionette and the subsequent tension causes them to look into these systems and they learn a new depth to the game they otherwise never would have, I think that’s a win for everybody. The average skill level rises, and in turn, we devs can make more interesting events that utilize the depth of the systems we have.

I just thought I’d let you know that this is what has happened for me. I do know about traits but since I don’t run dungeons, or any other heavy group-based content that might exist, I’ve never needed to switch them out or change to a weapon that a particular character has never used for some particular skills or even just used different skills. I’m not sure it has increased my skill level but its definitely cleared the rust away and make me think a bit more.

People don’t play the game to improve… other people’s gameplay. If you want to “shake things up” and get players who never change traits or skills to learn, that’s fine, but bar them from the difficult content. You are putting the special ed kids in with the honors class.

Some of the posts in this thread…they make me lose faith in people. IMO Josh, you set the bar just perfectly. It’s that fine line between average content and hard content. You got a lot of people coming in from WvW to play it, and we have a blast with it. It’s not too hard to us at all, and feels about right.

The problem I’m noticing with failures is exactly who are doing the failing usually. It’s almost always players who only open-world PvE, meaning no dungeons, fractals, PvP, or WvW. The skills required to survive open-world PvE are the lowest in the game, meaning you can find people who don’t know how to dodge, who don’t know that yellows and oranges are higher than greens and blues and easily obtained, who don’t know what can be considered a good build, etc.

Basically, the fault in this lies in that the open world PvErs can easily drag down the rest of the people attempting to do the chains just because they’re not used to seeing such a high skill bar at all. This is no real fault of anybody, but does show that open world PvE can be a little TOO easy. Said people are probably the ones getting yelled at during this because what constitutes common skills and knowledge for the rest of us (evading, twitch reactions, coming in with full rares or exotics) they haven’t acquired because they’ve had no need to learn this knowledge or obtain these skills to complete something.

possessed.2036:

If you want only people of a certain skill level or so involved to change their build for every fight I suggest you introduce a licence system that in the event of failure you cannot play this game as you are not deemed good enough for the game.This is elitism in its purest form.

Making no challenging content is elitism in its purest form.

Josh Foreman.8250:

StriderShinryu.6923:

I suppose what it boils down to with me is a question of why the content needs to be an elite level challenge in the first place. Would it really be all that bad if an average group of players could win?

Not at all. The Marionette was not designed to be beaten only by “elite” players. We have an idea of where the average player is skill-wise, and placed the bar where we hoped would just a tad above that, in the hopes that they would have to stretch a bit. That stretching creates tension, which is the sweet spot in event-type content as far as I’m concerned. (as opposed to the abnegation style smooth sailing content that most of an MMO needs to be.) Without the tension new things get boring faster. Too much tension, (as seems to be your case) and people give up and the content is wasted on them. That seems to be your argument about this event.

Because the player base is a diverse lot, ANY amount of tension will frustrate SOME amount, causing them to be turned off. So fundamentally we have to ask ourselves if we want to ever ask the player to stretch, or keep them all in a happy abnegated state of chillaxing. Does the benefit to those who want some tension from time to time outweigh the frustration of those who don’t?

The other question that I hope is answered in the positive is this: Can the average player skill be raised by challenging content like this? We know that X% of players don’t know about traits. We know Y% never swap out their 7-0 skills to accommodate specific challenges. And there are probably dozens of other systems that go unused by some portion of the player-base. If even 10% of that group hits a challenge like the Marionette and the subsequent tension causes them to look into these systems and they learn a new depth to the game they otherwise never would have, I think that’s a win for everybody. The average skill level rises, and in turn, we devs can make more interesting events that utilize the depth of the systems we have.

Having said all that, if after a week the Marionette is still only being beaten 1 out of 10 times, then I would say we may have tuned it a bit too difficult. On the other hand, we don’t know how long it takes for the aggregate skill level of the player-base to grow. I don’t know how long it takes for information about traits and builds to disseminate to those who had previously never looked into them. As with all our content, we are closely watching and noting these things so that every future project can learn from it.

P.S. Because several people brought up the idea of buffing the other platforms when one succeeds, I thought I ought to let you all know that this has always been the case. When one platform’s power regulator is destroyed the players on the platforms adjacent get Electrify Aura which gives 60 seconds of protection, swiftness, regeneration, fury, might, vigor and retaliation.

for future events like this (i know it will take time to develop)…

-instanced content (which is sorely lacking here).
-have instances scale by number of players and allow for difficulty level to be chosen. city of heroes had an option for scaling and difficulty so check out the wiki.
-you can still “change the face of tyria” by adding blown up buildings, smoldering craters, new pretty flowers,… when the event it over.

i’m not trying to be negative, but you all are not really pioneering anything new here. it’s frustrating to not see lessons learned from all our mmo forefathers, especially from a modern “aaa” game like this. from a player standpoint, you guys and gals really need to step up your qol development so you can present and offer much better content to players.

Elbegast.6970:

Then why do the mechanics, in an event designed for 100+ players, allow for a single player to foil the attempt? Answer me that.

Players like myself aren’t the problem. The mechanics that give players like myself the power to do what we do are what needs to be addressed.

The mechanics are designed this way because it is those same mechanics that break up the feeling of being a member of a mindless zerg, enable skilled single players to feel like they can show off their skill and save a run for 100+ other players, and create diverse scenarios within which a player can utilize their skills.

I’ll happily deal with players like you if it means players like me can make a difference. Besides, I can always group up 100+ people on a TS server and go to an overflow where you’ll never find me. That’s good enough for me.

I totaly agree with “Josh Foreman”’s philosophy here. (And i have a strong critic spirit, i think…)
For those who talk about server advantage, i finish this event many time (5success i think, and many time close), and never in my main server… All time in overflow or guesting, just saying.

Elbegast.6970:

Then why do the mechanics, in an event designed for 100+ players, allow for a single player to foil the attempt? Answer me that.

Players like myself aren’t the problem. The mechanics that give players like myself the power to do what we do are what needs to be addressed.

So the mechanics that allow you to open the fridge and steal your co-workers lunch is all the justification you need to do it? Its rather sad you feel so self righteous in your attempts to grief others.

As for the marionette. Its a fun fight. I’ve beaten it a few times, but best be in the map a dozen minutes before it starts. Even if the draw is unlucky (players with less skill and understanding all on the same platform) it doesn’t fail the entire event; its resistant enough. But if too many people don’t know the basics (and refuse to learn), the event is toast.

The masses need to learn basic skills. Kiting mobs into items, attacking from the rear, avoiding mines, when to range and when to melee. The devs can’t make interesting content until they do. The existing world bosses were too easy.

While we’re on the subject of easy.. when will anet improve ennemy AI and reduce their health? They should dodge out of AoE fields, they should line of sight range players and range melee players. They should use more control and support abilities too.. and maybe then defiance can be removed from the game. But that’s another subject.

Josh: Love the Marri- despite the frustration caused by watching a group of baddies fail.

Can I suggest a more focused training program for the individual for a future patch?

You’d need to make it essentially mandatory, either by rewards or locking Legendaries, level 80 or something behind it.

Have something that specifically teaches dodges, something that specifically requires trait swapping, something that specifically teaches positioning.

I’d love some harder content, and if the only way to get it is ensuring the playerbase is competent then it’s really up to you guys to actively push it forwards systematically and not just hope people pick things up while being carried by others.

Celeras.4980:

As someone who has beaten Marionette maybe 5 times thus far, I think I can honestly say that the success rate is far above 1/10. 50/50 seems about right with in my personal experience, and I think that is fine for this kind of content.

As someone who has never beaten Marionette, I think I can honestly say the success rate is much lower than 1/10.

See how that works?

Also about the traits and spec changing thing: I’d be much more willing to change specs, gear and utility skills if I could do it on the fly without having to pay the gem store or lose my spot and warp to LA and then back to an overflow to inevitably lose anyways.

Risingashes.8694:

Josh: Love the Marri- despite the frustration caused by watching a group of baddies fail.

Can I suggest a more focused training program for the individual for a future patch?

You’d need to make it essentially mandatory, either by rewards or locking Legendaries, level 80 or something behind it.

Have something that specifically teaches dodges, something that specifically requires trait swapping, something that specifically teaches positioning.

I’d love some harder content, and if the only way to get it is ensuring the playerbase is competent then it’s really up to you guys to actively push it forwards systematically and not just hope people pick things up while being carried by others.

The moment you do any of this, it stops being a game and becomes a job. It becomes work.

That isn’t fun, period.

I’m sorry, challenge seekers. The time of the WoW raid and excluding content from the masses is over. You can’t force people to get better. You can’t keep turning games into jobs.

Elbegast.6970:

Donari.5237:

Elbegast, it’s astounding you can so blatantly admit griefing. You’re not having fun so you have to wreck the fun of hundreds of people? Really not how this game is designed to be played.

But the game design allows it. That’s my point. A single player, using only the mechanics involved in the fight, can completely wreck those three events for everyone involved. Until they address that issue, forcing 100+ people into ‘becoming better players’ with this content is completely pointless. It won’t work.

Wow

You really are a child throwing a temper tantrum. I mean I always had my suspicions….but kitten , go grab a binkie already.

Josh Foreman.8250:

StriderShinryu.6923:

I suppose what it boils down to with me is a question of why the content needs to be an elite level challenge in the first place. Would it really be all that bad if an average group of players could win?

snip

Josh, I think a lot of people are confused about where the frustration is coming from.

Let me make something clear, Mechanic wise these events are AMAZING for this game. You guys did a great job designing them and the mechanics are great. There are 3 major flaws that I think you guys are slowly getting better at, though need to find a way to solve them. I call it the three Ws. The Who, the What, and the When

Who: Who you play with. It is very hard for people to play with who they want unless they get there super early. Blackgate is an example on this. I went in there and there was an hour + que on the main in lornars pass. If you want a lot of players to work together, they need to be able to choose Who they play with. That is why raids in other games are so successful in promoting guilds. They require coordination amongst a lot of people. Since it wasn’t based on overflows or random chance they will get into the same server they can plan times and build their freetime around that.

What: The thing about this game is that most Vanilla content is able to be easily completed by most “meta” builds right now. I’ve mostly played Necromancer and Engineer, but I found that my builds can easily do all types of content. Most vanilla content is really easy to adapt too. I haven’t done dungeons/fractals in a while, but most of the time I found myself just casting a ton of offensive skills while dodging the occasional attack from an enemy. I never felt like I needed to adapt on the fly and quickly. Most of the newer content you’ve been releasing is almost the exact opposite of this. So I kind of think you’re giving players a bit of a “combat shock” in which you’re placing them in situations way different from what their use too.

When: The big one. Everything before this can be reduced in the effect it has on the population by a TON if this problem is solved. Timed spawns are the devil for this hardcore content. The great thing about queen’s jubilee that if a player wanted too, he could get into the gauntlent over and over again. It was very easy for them to learn by trail and error. I remember seeing people die in the arena and get pushed out. I rez them and talk to them about strategies for a bit. Skills they could be using. They agree, immediately replace those skills and jump back in to the fight. You cant’ do that with things like Wurm or Marionette. Once you fail you have a long time to wait. Most of the players will leave the zone. The ones I just bonded with through battle will most likely not be there next round. Allowing players to learn by trial and error is a HUGE requirement for games. Darksouls, Raids in MMOs, etc. They all allowed players to immediately try again after dying, not waiting 1 hour or more. I’m not saying make these events farmable, but the current system is putting a ton of strees on the community’s overall enjoyment.

tl;dr Allow players to have more control over who they play with and when a boss spawns along with adding in more smaller content that represents these more advance styles of play and you’ll see a lot of the frustrations and overall anger toned down.

Josh Foreman.8250:

Can the average player skill be raised by challenging content like this?

“You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make it drink.” The choice ultimately has to be their own. Inspiring them to try is good, but you can only go so far before they decide it’s not worth it.

I do think there’s an issue with Marionette having ~5 new mechanics (one for each boss). Learning about all 5 mechanics is front-loaded as the player has no clue what bosses they will be fighting. This isn’t limited to lanes 3-5. It applies to lanes 1 and 2 since they will often be called upon for additional bosses. As is, it’s a very trial-and-error setup with a high failure cost. Not really an inspiring situation.

Josh Foreman.8250:

Having said all that, if after a week the Marionette is still only being beaten 1 out of 10 times, then I would say we may have tuned it a bit too difficult.

I think I’ve seen a less than 25% success rate. Even if that isn’t right, I haven’t seen more wins than losses. Especially recently.

Boss 3 seems to be the biggest “make or break” out of all of them. It feels like it’s expecting me to be both a bunker and a berserker at the same time. Generally not a problem for me… unless I have aggro. In which case, I’m a corpse. People seem to keep asking for might stacks and the like before going in. Never happens. If any boss is expecting it, there is a major problem right there.

It always seems to be a “1 or 2 platforms fail” situation. Sure, that situation has to happen repeatedly in order for it to be a failure, but that’s what appears to be happening.

Honestly, I’m getting rather tired of Marionette. I have already taken a day’s break to avoid being completely frustrated by the failures. If the rest of the LS is going to be like that, I may just play until I get a win then do something else.

Gene Archer.8560:

Risingashes.8694:

Josh: Love the Marri- despite the frustration caused by watching a group of baddies fail.

Can I suggest a more focused training program for the individual for a future patch?

You’d need to make it essentially mandatory, either by rewards or locking Legendaries, level 80 or something behind it.

Have something that specifically teaches dodges, something that specifically requires trait swapping, something that specifically teaches positioning.

I’d love some harder content, and if the only way to get it is ensuring the playerbase is competent then it’s really up to you guys to actively push it forwards systematically and not just hope people pick things up while being carried by others.

The moment you do any of this, it stops being a game and becomes a job. It becomes work.

That isn’t fun, period.

I’m sorry, challenge seekers. The time of the WoW raid and excluding content from the masses is over. You can’t force people to get better. You can’t keep turning games into jobs.

I agree with you on excluding content from the masses for not having specific things…but they’re right on that open world players need to get a lot better. Dungeons, Fractals,

PvP, WvW, all of these require players to dodge, react quick, adapt, etc. You don’t see any of that in open world PvE, which is part of the reason for the less skilled players. In any of those fields, I have to keep aware of my surroundings, and use everything I can just to survive. Open world PvE however…I don’t even need to use half of the skill I have in those other fields, I don’t need to dodge much, I don’t need to be aware of my surroundings, that’s how much of a difficulty (and by extension, skill) gap there is. It’s time we brought open world PvE player’s skill level up.

Complete anything other than open world PvE, and you’ll see the skill level the average players of those fields are at, the skill level Anet made the Marionette for because they expect open world PvE players to also be at that level.

I can see your point of making players reach for the success, but you have to know that some classes (necro) can’t dodge more than twice and certain bosses (3rd) require a great deal of dodging (even the stickied guide calls it an evasion test).

Also the problem with making all players reach for the stars is that those that don’t want to reach, will ground those that can and do. My success rate thusfar in both OF and main has been a dismal failure (0 for 20ish), although I have almost always completed my platform (exception boss 3 once) we still fail.

I’m not asking for a large nerf, but if success depends upon not getting a bad roll of the dice it can lead to just enough frustration as to cause players to not bother with it after they complete the AP’s. If these events are to be fun for all they need to be just on the high end of skill and not IMO beyond it.

RyuDragnier.9476:

Gene Archer.8560:

Risingashes.8694:

Josh: Love the Marri- despite the frustration caused by watching a group of baddies fail.

Can I suggest a more focused training program for the individual for a future patch?

You’d need to make it essentially mandatory, either by rewards or locking Legendaries, level 80 or something behind it.

Have something that specifically teaches dodges, something that specifically requires trait swapping, something that specifically teaches positioning.

I’d love some harder content, and if the only way to get it is ensuring the playerbase is competent then it’s really up to you guys to actively push it forwards systematically and not just hope people pick things up while being carried by others.

The moment you do any of this, it stops being a game and becomes a job. It becomes work.

That isn’t fun, period.

I’m sorry, challenge seekers. The time of the WoW raid and excluding content from the masses is over. You can’t force people to get better. You can’t keep turning games into jobs.

I agree with you on excluding content from the masses for not having specific things…but they’re right on that open world players need to get a lot better. Dungeons, Fractals,

PvP, WvW, all of these require players to dodge, react quick, adapt, etc. You don’t see any of that in open world PvE, which is part of the reason for the less skilled players. In any of those fields, I have to keep aware of my surroundings, and use everything I can just to survive. Open world PvE however…I don’t even need to use half of the skill I have in those other fields, I don’t need to dodge much, I don’t need to be aware of my surroundings, that’s how much of a difficulty (and by extension, skill) gap there is. It’s time we brought open world PvE player’s skill level up.

Complete anything other than open world PvE, and you’ll see the skill level the average players of those fields are at, the skill level Anet made the Marionette for because they expect open world PvE players to also be at that level.

I did the hardcore raiding thing in multiple games. I picked up GW2 because it sold itself as AVOIDING those end game raiding conventions. I didn’t sign up to have to go find the cookie cutter raid spec du jour just to fight X boss on Tuesday and spend hours farming up #gooseberries to fight Y boss on Thursday.

Now we’re being told that oh hey, that whole raiding thing that was missing for the first year of the game? We meant to have it, it’s not our fault all our playerbase are bads.

I had my elite raider moment in the Sun. I don’t want to have to be a cutting edge player anymore to not be at a mathematical disadvantage to other players. It’s just frustrating that ANet is taking the offer of a game like this off the table this late in the game.

I really hope we can discuss for upscaling difficulty / elite content forma in CDI one day, should be interesting and personaly i have some idea. (like this : https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/livingworld/lwd/Next-Elder-Dragons-fights-same-as-Marionette/first#post3559344 )

The marionette is not “hardcore raiding”.

I think it’s a very well balanced event. It’s not easy, and some listening and learning is required from players (shocker), but it’s very do-able and most importantly it’s fun.

Future world events with this same kind of balance would be great.

Gene Archer.8560:

Risingashes.8694:

Josh: Love the Marri- despite the frustration caused by watching a group of baddies fail.

Can I suggest a more focused training program for the individual for a future patch?

You’d need to make it essentially mandatory, either by rewards or locking Legendaries, level 80 or something behind it.

Have something that specifically teaches dodges, something that specifically requires trait swapping, something that specifically teaches positioning.

I’d love some harder content, and if the only way to get it is ensuring the playerbase is competent then it’s really up to you guys to actively push it forwards systematically and not just hope people pick things up while being carried by others.

The moment you do any of this, it stops being a game and becomes a job. It becomes work.

That isn’t fun, period.

I’m sorry, challenge seekers. The time of the WoW raid and excluding content from the masses is over. You can’t force people to get better. You can’t keep turning games into jobs.

If you think beating the marionette is a job, seriously. Go home.

Or you know what? On second thought, I’d love to hear your thoughts after trying the new wurm event. I could use a good laugh.

Just adding to the discussion, I’ve already finished the marionette achievements except for the “dodge” ones and have most of the wurm ones, just need slayer.

The long wait times is brought about by trying to secure a spot at a server , either home or guesting, that has the numbers or coordination to complete the event.

The events require a large amount of player, 125 for the marionette, to finish the content but can easily fail if 1 or 2 players don’t know what to do or intentionally fail the event.

Population of servers. If developers insist on this type of events with large numbers of players then realize that not all servers are the same as blackgate.

Within a week most of the player base would stop doing the temporary content, I don’t do the marionette anymore. There were pictures posted on reddit about the “empty” lanes and what not.

Temporary content, Tequatl and the wurm are not affected by this as they’re permanent. The marionette is temporary so a lot more people are frustrated that they cant finish it at least once. I’ve seen a lot of new and old players leave the game because they were lured by promises of great updates only to be told they were temporary and wont come back.

The marionette is fun content but I honestly don’t want to redo it.

In Desolation we finish Marionette with maybe 70 ppl at 5am… Lan 1 go 4, then 2 go 5, 3 go 1, 4(and all without the debuff) come 2.
We fail 3 and 5 and we won. So it is possible, harder, but possible.
And maybe 50% is guesting. (Me include.)

bravoart.5308:

RyuDragnier.9476:

Gene Archer.8560:

Risingashes.8694:

Josh: Love the Marri- despite the frustration caused by watching a group of baddies fail.

Can I suggest a more focused training program for the individual for a future patch?

You’d need to make it essentially mandatory, either by rewards or locking Legendaries, level 80 or something behind it.

Have something that specifically teaches dodges, something that specifically requires trait swapping, something that specifically teaches positioning.

I’d love some harder content, and if the only way to get it is ensuring the playerbase is competent then it’s really up to you guys to actively push it forwards systematically and not just hope people pick things up while being carried by others.

The moment you do any of this, it stops being a game and becomes a job. It becomes work.

That isn’t fun, period.

I’m sorry, challenge seekers. The time of the WoW raid and excluding content from the masses is over. You can’t force people to get better. You can’t keep turning games into jobs.

I agree with you on excluding content from the masses for not having specific things…but they’re right on that open world players need to get a lot better. Dungeons, Fractals,

PvP, WvW, all of these require players to dodge, react quick, adapt, etc. You don’t see any of that in open world PvE, which is part of the reason for the less skilled players. In any of those fields, I have to keep aware of my surroundings, and use everything I can just to survive. Open world PvE however…I don’t even need to use half of the skill I have in those other fields, I don’t need to dodge much, I don’t need to be aware of my surroundings, that’s how much of a difficulty (and by extension, skill) gap there is. It’s time we brought open world PvE player’s skill level up.

Complete anything other than open world PvE, and you’ll see the skill level the average players of those fields are at, the skill level Anet made the Marionette for because they expect open world PvE players to also be at that level.

I did the hardcore raiding thing in multiple games. I picked up GW2 because it sold itself as AVOIDING those end game raiding conventions. I didn’t sign up to have to go find the cookie cutter raid spec du jour just to fight X boss on Tuesday and spend hours farming up #gooseberries to fight Y boss on Thursday.

Now we’re being told that oh hey, that whole raiding thing that was missing for the first year of the game? We meant to have it, it’s not our fault all our playerbase are bads.

I had my elite raider moment in the Sun. I don’t want to have to be a cutting edge player anymore to not be at a mathematical disadvantage to other players. It’s just frustrating that ANet is taking the offer of a game like this off the table this late in the game.

This is spot on.I have been playing the game since release 3.2k hrs.
The reason, I love the game but now with all the focus on pseudo wow raid bs its no longer the game that was delivered or promised.
I am guessing the next big thing added will be saving files of the encounters ala wow style where every attack is recorded & the unfortunate sop that is seen to be lacking in anyway is summarily harassed & then ditched.
Do I stick around & hope it doesn’t continue this way or just give up & quit now?

My primary complaint is that I’ve been in the event like 10 times and never had a winning group, and before any balancing or changing ever occurs to THIS event, I imagine it’ll be gone. So I’ll have zero victories over marionette, despite playing to the best of my ability when I had time, and nothing to really show for it. So I’m not thrilled about that. I’m not happy that I will probably never complete an event that feels like everyone should have an equal shot but is ultimately up to the rando gods of pug groups to complete. I’m one guy, I work 6 nights a week, my options are limited and I feel like there’s zero ways for me to get anything out of this event. :[

bravoart.5308:

RyuDragnier.9476:

Gene Archer.8560:

Risingashes.8694:

Josh: Love the Marri- despite the frustration caused by watching a group of baddies fail.

Can I suggest a more focused training program for the individual for a future patch?

You’d need to make it essentially mandatory, either by rewards or locking Legendaries, level 80 or something behind it.

Have something that specifically teaches dodges, something that specifically requires trait swapping, something that specifically teaches positioning.

I’d love some harder content, and if the only way to get it is ensuring the playerbase is competent then it’s really up to you guys to actively push it forwards systematically and not just hope people pick things up while being carried by others.

The moment you do any of this, it stops being a game and becomes a job. It becomes work.

That isn’t fun, period.

I’m sorry, challenge seekers. The time of the WoW raid and excluding content from the masses is over. You can’t force people to get better. You can’t keep turning games into jobs.

I agree with you on excluding content from the masses for not having specific things…but they’re right on that open world players need to get a lot better. Dungeons, Fractals,

PvP, WvW, all of these require players to dodge, react quick, adapt, etc. You don’t see any of that in open world PvE, which is part of the reason for the less skilled players. In any of those fields, I have to keep aware of my surroundings, and use everything I can just to survive. Open world PvE however…I don’t even need to use half of the skill I have in those other fields, I don’t need to dodge much, I don’t need to be aware of my surroundings, that’s how much of a difficulty (and by extension, skill) gap there is. It’s time we brought open world PvE player’s skill level up.

Complete anything other than open world PvE, and you’ll see the skill level the average players of those fields are at, the skill level Anet made the Marionette for because they expect open world PvE players to also be at that level.

I did the hardcore raiding thing in multiple games. I picked up GW2 because it sold itself as AVOIDING those end game raiding conventions. I didn’t sign up to have to go find the cookie cutter raid spec du jour just to fight X boss on Tuesday and spend hours farming up #gooseberries to fight Y boss on Thursday.

Now we’re being told that oh hey, that whole raiding thing that was missing for the first year of the game? We meant to have it, it’s not our fault all our playerbase are bads.

I had my elite raider moment in the Sun. I don’t want to have to be a cutting edge player anymore to not be at a mathematical disadvantage to other players. It’s just frustrating that ANet is taking the offer of a game like this off the table this late in the game.

You mean the optional stuff you don’t ever have to touch? Also, when I said average, I mean people who can dodge effectively, keep on their utility slots abilities that help them with the encounter, people who hear what something does and expects it, basically people who at least have the bare minimum requirements to survive in any given situation.

As for builds for this event, I did most of my attempts on my apothecary regen/condi thief (an unorthodox build) and successfully solo’d the last bit of health off of several champs just to save the chain from failure (7/8 successes on that), so I don’t want to hear a thing about having to use a cookie cutter build for this. You do not need a cookie cutter build for Marionette, that’s what makes her such good FUN raid content.

The mechanics are awesome, for those that enjoy learning new things from every patch, that wanna improve their skills, to have a new challenge to do.

These people are being punished though, because in order to get their achievements, or just to succeed the event, they have to expect that the people who are clueless about their role on the game succeed doing their job.

This sort of worked on Scarlet’s invasions because it mixed what this kind of player usually enjoy, the mindless grind and fast reward, with the events that would turn into achievements. So they’d come there and kill things and succeed. It wasn’t really something that required some skill from anyone, people were just tagging things. This doesnt work with the marionette though.

What I see now is people not even minding the aggro that spawns near the portals, they wanna kill the lane aggro that comes on front, and just keep changing lanes to get more keys.

It’s nice that the developers wanna raise the average player skill by giving them challenges, but that should be their option if they wanna improve or not, and if they decide still that they wont change their utilities to be more helpful to other people or retrait, that this wont affect other people that actually do that..

A lot of people here just get on to become uncle scrooge, farm champ, farm nodes, play TP, earning money without learning how to play with a team .. and its their choice to do that.

Now if the idea is to teach players to be better, then its not a challenge in specific that should be put there for them to be faced.. then the whole game should be more challenging, this way they would be ‘forced’ to be better every day til theyd succeed… make them learn to dodge since low levels, make them know that they should trait their characters to different situations, make them not be able to put all 5 signets together would be nice also >_>"" (maybe give a limit to this idk…) because then theyd be forced to fill other slots with something else thats not for just themselves, maybe give people a limit of how many times they can rez because i see parties on dungeons that rez rez rez people from the ground til the boss dies, no strategy, one just rezing the other one. So whyd they dodge if someone can get them any time? the death penalty doesn’t seem to be enough to teach people to dodge attacks, since they know someone will get them up if they dont dodge and eventually get on fight to survive..

Some ideas from GW1 should have been brought here, the 15% penalty on your health there made people understand that dying too much is bad and u gotta do something about it or you will fail everyone. Getting to 60% would be insta failure for everyone, so people had to learn to succeed.

Making the game in general harder would maybe make people to learn how to coop with others instead of play for themselves.

One week has passed, I got to face lane 5th challenge 2 times only, been trying it everyday for a couple hours everyday, and I didn’t get my achievement, because people did not improve this whole week apparently..

Elbegast.6970:

Three attempts are my limit. If I can’t kill a new boss in three attempts, I turn my focus to preventing others from completing the content. A single player with a proper strategy can shut down an entire group on Tequatl, Marionette and Wurm.

May I ask what you gain from that behaviour?

Are you so bad a loser that if you cannot gain a lead in a board game right away, you’ll just try to ruin it for everyone else, too?

Carighan.6758:

Elbegast.6970:

Three attempts are my limit. If I can’t kill a new boss in three attempts, I turn my focus to preventing others from completing the content. A single player with a proper strategy can shut down an entire group on Tequatl, Marionette and Wurm.

May I ask what you gain from that behaviour?

Are you so bad a loser that if you cannot gain a lead in a board game right away, you’ll just try to ruin it for everyone else, too?

It’s fun. There isn’t very much solo content this update so I have to create my own. And this isn’t a turn based board game. That’s a very poor example. I’m just bringing a little sandbox love into the world of Tyria. Player-created content and what have you.

If you think what I do is bad, I would shudder to see you in a real sandbox mmo, such as Eve Online. A game where taking players hostage, extortion, exploiting, joining corporations (guilds) in order to tear them apart from the inside through lies and deceit are all considered valid PvP play styles.

From my experience what many people don’t realize is that most of the times when the event fails it’s not caused by inexperienced players, it mostly happens on overflows, where players are not distributed over all lanes so that some lanes inevitably fail at their champions bc they don’t have enough players to face each champion.
The most common scenario is you go into the energy field and start fighting your champion, but it takes a long time until enough players entered to even have a chance to succeed, if even. When like half of the group enters way too late and then you have maybe 1-2 inexperienced players on top of that, you obviously fail. That’s how it should be.

I think most of the concerns with difficulty could be eliminated just by improving how the server/overflow system works.

Elbegast.6970:

Carighan.6758:

Elbegast.6970:

Three attempts are my limit. If I can’t kill a new boss in three attempts, I turn my focus to preventing others from completing the content. A single player with a proper strategy can shut down an entire group on Tequatl, Marionette and Wurm.

May I ask what you gain from that behaviour?

Are you so bad a loser that if you cannot gain a lead in a board game right away, you’ll just try to ruin it for everyone else, too?

It’s fun. There isn’t very much solo content this update so I have to create my own. And this isn’t a turn based board game. That’s a very poor example. I’m just bringing a little sandbox love into the world of Tyria. Player-created content and what have you.

If you think what I do is bad, I would shudder to see you in a real sandbox mmo, such as Eve Online. A game where taking players hostage, extortion, exploiting, joining corporations (guilds) in order to tear them apart from the inside through lies and deceit are all considered valid PvP play styles.

My only hope is that while making us strive to be just a little better, ANet takes into consideration that there are players such as we see here among us. And I must thank you for letting yourself be know so as the developers can see that there are some that will go to such lengths to diminish the enjoyment of others.

RyuDragnier.9476:

…but they’re right on that open world players need to get a lot better.

No, they aren’t right. That’s what a lot of you don’t seem to be getting.

You can’t force someone to get better. You just can’t.

Furthermore, saying that completely ignores that everyone has a set skill level, and furthermore, skill cap. A lot of you call it being bad, or lazy. But players can put in all the hard work they can and still not break through to the next level. People have limits and thresholds.

RyuDragnier.9476:

the skill level Anet made the Marionette for because they expect open world PvE players to also be at that level.

And I’m saying that’s the problem. That Anet expects players to have a certain skill level. Especially that they expect a certain, uniform skill level in Open World content.

CETheLucid.3964:

If you think beating the marionette is a job, seriously. Go home.

The event goes best with preparation beforehand including being there early to avoid overflow, lining up and being assigned a role, following a commander, and knowing what to do in the fights ahead of time, showing up at specific times, etc.

That is the very essence of old school raiding. And old school raiding was a job.

So yes, I think Marionette is a job. I think anything that falls into the category of raiding is a job. Because that’s how you hardcore uber!elite tryhards treat it. If someone doesn’t fall in line with your level of skill, they’re trash to be tossed aside. MMO as a genre would be better if your kind didn’t exist, because you take every ounce of fun out of every game you touch. Gaming would be better without you or your ilk.

CETheLucid.3964:

Or you know what? On second thought, I’d love to hear your thoughts after trying the new wurm event. I could use a good laugh.

Tried it. Tried it three times in fact. Gave each wurm a shot. Hate it. Especially despise that it wasn’t actually advertised as what it was supposed to be: Hardcore content. Despise that it’s in a lower level zone despite being geared for level 80s. Wish Anet would stop making raid content altogether. This game never needed it. Especially wish they’d stop making it because it means yet another event that my server must ignore. Because we simply don’t have the numbers and never will.

The amount of people that are sitting behind this " omg ANET is elitist " excuse is hilarious. What a joke, you should all strive to improve, should olympians stop striving to improve at their sport? Should drug attics stop trying to better themselves as a person?

Now consider, do you lose out on ANYTHING if you can’t complete this content? Well no, you can do your meta achievement for living story without having defeated marionette at all, dailies alone can get it done. Now consider, should WvW’ers complain when they make content for sPvP? No, …so why are lesser skilled players complaining when content is being made for more skilled players especially when you still complete meta achievements without having to defeat it at all!

The problem is that these events seem designed to be completed by more than 100 players, thereby nullifying the things that individual players bring with them to the fights when numbers are significantly lower or higher.

Therefore, the dynamic event system that scales the difficulty of events based on the number of people nearby can solve this core problem. Ultimately, player skills, builds, optimal professions, and coordination do not matter much when fighting a battle against an enemy that necessitates large forces to beat it. Therefore, better scaling of these events based on present population will allow the things that players bring with them to matter much more, and rendering larger numbers useless in the determination of successful completion.

I’ve been on overflows that had anywhere from 20-80 people doing the 2 new events and we failed every time, even on an extremely well coordinated overflow population. Essentially 10 Champions should not be spawning together when less than 20 people are fighting within 5k units of a wurm’s head after the escort is completed by 15 people. Defending and taking Home Garrison while being out-manned by 3.x to 1 is more fun and less draining.

This is how I would attempt to solve this problem through scaling:

20 random players should be able to defeat the bosses, beat ANY World Event (including Balthazar chains), and proceed further into a zone with about a 75% (or whatever XX% is optimal) perceived average success rate. This should be the base line for the events. Additionally make them scale up or down at intervals of 5-10 people starting at 15 random people for an average success rate of about 55-65%. The success rate would be growing logistically and capping at about 80% (or optimal YY%) for 100+ people . The average success rate would be higher for well coordinated non-random groups using optimal builds, formations, professions, tactics, and individual skills. Those are examples of numbers I would use to make the game better but determined through testing and research of player culture.

That would be the best way to solve this problem and avoid stagnation of the player base’s skill level.

Zanthrax.6538:

What a joke, you should all strive to improve, should olympians stop striving to improve at their sport? Should drug attics stop trying to better themselves as a person?

Quit using examples of the real world for a game that’s about entertainment and nothing else. Stop trying to force people to improve.

Just. Stop.

If I want to become a better person, I will do so in real life, where being a better person matters. All I want from a video game is a relaxing, entertaining ride.

Tommyknocker.6089:

Elbegast.6970:

Carighan.6758:

Elbegast.6970:

Three attempts are my limit. If I can’t kill a new boss in three attempts, I turn my focus to preventing others from completing the content. A single player with a proper strategy can shut down an entire group on Tequatl, Marionette and Wurm.

May I ask what you gain from that behaviour?

Are you so bad a loser that if you cannot gain a lead in a board game right away, you’ll just try to ruin it for everyone else, too?

It’s fun. There isn’t very much solo content this update so I have to create my own. And this isn’t a turn based board game. That’s a very poor example. I’m just bringing a little sandbox love into the world of Tyria. Player-created content and what have you.

If you think what I do is bad, I would shudder to see you in a real sandbox mmo, such as Eve Online. A game where taking players hostage, extortion, exploiting, joining corporations (guilds) in order to tear them apart from the inside through lies and deceit are all considered valid PvP play styles.

My only hope is that while making us strive to be just a little better, ANet takes into consideration that there are players such as we see here among us. And I must thank you for letting yourself be know so as the developers can see that there are some that will go to such lengths to diminish the enjoyment of others.

I actually agree with you and many others who share the same sentiment. The mechanics of future events need to be closely scrutinized in order to diminish the chances of someone like me disrupting the game play of hundreds of other players. I will always look for weaknesses in the mechanics and strategies of new events. It’s just something I do. I never use hacks or anything but if ArenaNet gives me a way…a mechanic that allows me to disrupt an event, I will take full advantage.

Elbegast.6970:

Malchior.5042:

Elbegast.6970:

@Josh Foreman
Three attempts are my limit. If I can’t kill a new boss in three attempts, I turn my focus to preventing others from completing the content. A single player with a proper strategy can shut down an entire group on Tequatl, Marionette and Wurm. Going by your example I could simply state that I am forcing those players to become better by making their event far more difficult than need be. It’s a win for everyone, right?

Elbegast, Leave this game. Now.

It is not designed for such blatant selfishness and disregard for community involvement, interaction, and teamwork.

Then why do the mechanics, in an event designed for 100+ players, allow for a single player to foil the attempt? Answer me that.

Players like myself aren’t the problem. The mechanics that give players like myself the power to do what we do are what needs to be addressed.

It’s not the stabber’s fault. It’s the bloody knife’s fault! Send it to prison…or the junk yard or something.

Seriously, as far as MMOs go, GW2’s a shining gem as far as cooperation versus competition in the open world goes. It has been virtually impossible for players to troll each other compared to any other MMO out there. You are deflecting your own personal issues onto a game that has far less significant issues in what can only be presumed to be yet another attempt to troll.

Red Queen.7915:

Kajin.5301:

2 suggestions:

-make the scaling of the amount of mobs in the 5 lanes match the amount of players in the area. When you’re in an overflow at the 4-5th lvl, you really don’t have enough to stop the leaks of champs reaching the portal.

-dynamic scaling of the platform wardens to match the amount of players inside.

It already scales just fine. We did it at around three in the morning with ~10-15 players on each lane and we got to two severed chains, so we didn’t fare any better or worse than we did earlier with more people. That said, the scaling of the wardens might need some tuning, yes. Still, the wardens scale as well, maybe just not as much as the mobs in the lanes.

I’m honestly not sure they can be scaled down much more. Granted, this is based entirely on anecdotal evidence, but… My fiancee managed to solo the first Warden using a level 80 mesmer with all her traits spent on defense, rare armor, an exotic greatsword, and no runes, sigils, or other benefits to her name. Granted, there was only about two seconds left on the clock when she finished off the generator, but this was also her first run after having not played for four months and all she knew was that she had to hit it from behind.

The biggest problem in my experiences is that people just can’t wrap their head around the mechanics and time limit. Too many people just stand there and attack, rather than trying to move around, or beat the champion then stop to rez the dead instead of attacking the generator. Or, worse, one person screams, “We’ve lost!” and suddenly half the people fighting vanish rather than take cannon blast, even if chains have already broken and its the first lane to fail.

@Gene Archer.8560: “You can’t force someone to get better. You just can’t.”

This just goes against the basic tenant of game design. Think of any other game, Pacman, Tetris, Call of Duty, World of Warcraft, even GW2.

As games go on they get harder, this is to keep people from getting bored as they naturally improve over time.

People are going to improve at different rates, but they are going to improve. The ‘skill cap’ of the normal player is very high, and simply coming to understand traits, skill swapping, dodging, and positioning will lead to a large jump in player effectiveness.

Is Marri suited to teaching people these skills? That’s certainly debatable. The larger and more pronounced ground warnings should certainly spur some thoughts, the gigantic arrows and telegraphs should make some people think. But the telegraphs may be too quick for people to catch on, and nothing really prompts or highlights dodging as the solution if people are not already familiar with it.

But your argument: that hard content is somehow discriminatory, and/or it shouldn’t be worked on AT ALL is simply ridiculous.

If you want rewards, doing Marri pales compared to running 3 dungeons which you could easily do in that time. If you want story, there is none. If you want achievements then you can get the meta simply by participating. If you want to ‘win’ then making things easier doesn’t do that, it simply hands you a meaningless victory.

If you believe you cannot beat the Marri then you simply haven’t played the rest of the content the game already provides. Do that, and leave the Marri to the people who’ve already reached the content cap, or listen in map chat, watch for the gigantic telegraphs and dodge. You might actually enjoy yourself.