I love the absolute flexibility GW2 gives the player. It’s one of the many things that make me consider this game the greatest MMO ever. But…
Norn Thieves?
How does that even work?
I just got into the game. My main is currently only level 10, but I’m absorbing a lot of information. So even I know this is waaayy too out of place.
#1. It defies their very concept of honor.
So why would that even happen? It’s so confusing! The incredible Anglo-Saxon style of culture that the Norns hold makes thievery near impossible. Not only that..
#2. They’re freakin’ huge.
How would a Norn sneak up on someone to either assassinate them or steal their stuff?
Discuss!
“My father hunted me as a child…perhaps it is time to hunt MY boy.”
Honor, not sure, norn value great accomplishments and individuality, so a thief can pretty much accomplish great stuff on his own.
yeah… but stealth covers it all i guess. (well, a good example of big “thiefs” is shiro tagachi, ok he was an assassin, but you get the point, stealthy and sneaky is ok, but shiro was a big guy, and look at what he did)
Btw, theres an old post on the arena blog named “a spirit of legend”, im pretty sure the guy in there is a thief, pretty entertaining.
1. Norn “honor” isn’t all about fighting fair, snow leopard and raven both advocate cunning or trickery as a viable means to victory and legend.
2. That’s a good point, but as far as player characters are concerned, the low end of the norn height slider puts them in “tall human” range which is not that unreasonable for a thief. A better question might be how charr can be a sneak thief given their excessive bulk and pointy bits.
Thieves/assassins aren’t always about sneaking. A major part of infiltration is sometimes just blending in to get close to a target. A cover as a waiter, cleaner, or butler will often able to gain access to secure targets more easily than someone trying to sneak in.
And I agree with Riot Inducer. Snow Leopard emphasises stealth, and what some would consider “unethical”, but is natural for a sneaky hunter. The story in A Spirit of Legend is a good example.
I think some ‘lore" sacrifices are made to forgo gameplay options. That being said I’m sure someone can spin a grand fantasy tale of “A norn gone awry”. Just evil Norns who abandon cultural beliefs. And somehow master the art of “light footed ness”
Even the vikings loved stealth tactics, I mean what do you call it when they hop in a boat, roll up on a foggy coast, and raid the kitten out of some monasteries?
I see no lore disconnect here, especially when you compare it to this:
“I will wait until my prey is at her weakest, and then I will strike.” The young hunter smiled grimly. “And by Snow Leopard, I swear—you will never hear me coming.”
Remember that one of the choices in being a Thief was a headband to show how gruff and meanacing you are. I can see a Norn Thief go the thug route and showing he’s tough against anyone.
Elona, Land of the Golden Sun….and undead…and poison. The travel brochure lied okay?!
All of the above. At base, a GW2 Thief is a skirmishing fighter. Rather than standing in a battle line they weave in and out of the fray, deceive, confuse, go for the weak spots. While they may be socially integrated and honourable and not steal from their fellow Norn I can’t see anything wrong with them taking from enemies what they can’t hold on to.
Who says all thieves need to be stealthy? As a Norn you don’t need to be discreet about it. Just walk up, punch them in the face, and steal their stuff. You’re a thief, not an assassin.
Conceptually, my Norn Thief is played as a scout/outrunner/skirmisher/tracker, and she works just fine that way.
Her idea of honor includes a healthy portion of pragmatism. Most of the louts and braggarts who go on about honor—who apply all sorts of arbitrary restrictions on what’s “fair” and “acceptable” in a game of iron—generally do so from the warmth and safety of their lodge. They wouldn’t last a day out in her world. At least, not with their “honor” intact.
Not coincidentally, she firmly adheres to the teachings of Raven.
I don’t really see the problem with that. It’s at least using magic to help them hit people upside the head better.
There’s at least a couple Asura Warriors in the Vigil that I’ve run across in the personal story though, so Norn Thieves aren’t too far from that I don’t think.
I think you just haven’t really played a thief in GW2 to be honest. I could see this complaint in other games (See Tauren Rogues) but in GW2 how often as a thief are you actually sneaking around?
Of course, there being a difference between just being subtle and being sneaky. Thieves in GW2 aren’t about being unseen all the time, so much as they are about skill and cunning as well as evasiveness, all things a norn can rely on certainly.
Charr too, really. I mean, they’re big hulking monsters, sure, but they’re big hulking -cats-.
To add onto the responses to the second point, in the book, Ghosts of Acsalon, Gullik Oddsson, a 9 foot tall norn was able to get the drop on Dougal while in a drunken stupor.
“The incredible Anglo-Saxon style of culture that the Norns hold makes thievery near impossible”
Cultural traits are not requirements. Just because a culture identifies a certain way doesn’t mean there aren’t a subset of people who aren’t like the rest of the culture. In fact if a culture identifies a certain way then you can be more sure that there IS a subset that disagrees or acts opposingly.
You are just sitting peacefully in the living room with your wife enjoying a cup of tea. Then this huge towering norn bashes your door, comes into your house, picks up your television and starts walking away with a grin, whispering ‘and I’m not even using my bear form’. Would you even dare to stop this humongous beast? This is why the norn are the best thieves.
Well its not an uncommon thing really at all in fantasy genres or in history.
We have Conan the Barbarian, hes a thief and sneaky barbarian at times. We have the northmen as mentioned before, very large people for their time. They had assassins and whatnot, just like any other culture.
And a norn picking pockets I imagine going on a bit differently than an asura or human picking pockets. Instead of the sneaky approach they grab the person by the feet and shake ’em till they drop all the goodies on the ground. :P
Also norns are very scandinativeamerican by their culture, its a very strong mix of the two, I imagine native americans had very fine assassins. Body size doesnt matter.
Think of this the otherway around. How does an asura pickpocket a norn…
Not all people in a society buy into the whole honor thing.
E.g. – Ronin, ninja in samurai period japan, etc.
Also, thief is an unfortunate moniker. I wish they’d gone with “rogue” (generic, sure, but i think a more accurate portrayal of the class, despite the whole “steal” mechanic).
Think of Norn thieves in that way, and your suspension of disbelief does just fine.
He’s holding what looks like a sword to you, but he’s holding it like it’s a dagger. In his other hand is a cannon the size of an Asura that he’s hefting like a pistol.
He stops in front of you, then teleports behind you. Then he asks for your gold.
Do you stop to argue with the twelve-foot teleporting death Norn? No sir, you do not. You give him your money, and you hope he likes your floral-print wallet.
A Norn can be a great thief, he simply doesn’t have to be sneaky, he takes what he wants from you by using only his (or her sometimes) beard. Then… He does other unthinkable things to you, again, with his beard.
But yeah, Norn have a different sense of honor and glory than most races do. It’s more personal rather than societal. Sweet jelly beans, societal is apparently a word. So a Norn Thief is perfectly acceptable, along as its a glorious occupation.
And yeah, no need to be a sneak thief. Just stab the guy, take the goods off his corpse. It still counts as stealing.
Norn thievery works in a different way, people see you doing it, but your sheer size terrifies them into keeping their mouth shut.
Market Seller 1: “Dude, that giant Norn totally just sole a bag of apples off your cart!”
Market Seller 2: “I know”
Market Seller 1: “Aren’t you going to do anything?!”
Market Seller 2: “Look at the size of him! I’m not going to start a fight with him over a bag of apples, its not worth it!”
Market Seller 1: “You got a point there…”
My Norn thief took full ferocity, and I consider more of a thug-archtype than the sneaky assassin-style thief.
I never considered the “Norn honor” thing though, I saw more of a “seek out and challenge yourself” mentality. I mean, hey, the newb intro has you hunting down a trophy. Not seeking a fair fight against an equal opponent … hunting for sport to show off/prove you can kill something big.
I assume if my thief showed up back in Norn-ville, and told stories about how she faced down waves of Risen and won, they’d not ask if she fought fairly and honorably anyway, more of a “how many?! .. … and catapults?! Let me buy you a beer.”
Norns don’t care about honor specifically, they care about making themselves a legend. Sure, some norn do it by finding the biggest, meanest critter they can find and hanging the head on their wall, but there are undoubtedly others that dedicate themselves to advancing science or magic and getting their name in all the textbooks, or becoming the Tyrian equivalent of Butch Cassidy and becoming the most wanted norn on the continent.
There’s many paths to fame.
And tigers are the largest cat on the planet and they’re sneaky as kitten!
As long as you can boast about it afterwards, you’re all good, basically. It’s not about honor per se, it’s about your legacy, and how long you’ll be remembered after you die. (…For good things, hopefully, but better bad things than nothing.)
You are just sitting peacefully in the living room with your wife enjoying a cup of tea. Then this huge towering norn bashes your door, comes into your house, picks up your television and starts walking away with a grin, whispering ‘and I’m not even using my bear form’. Would you even dare to stop this humongous beast? This is why the norn are the best thieves.
I actually have been rolling with a norn thief since beta and I thoroughly enjoy it. Norn thieves are more brute & brawn, you wouldn’t realistically approach one if he were mugging someone.
I love the absolute flexibility GW2 gives the player. It’s one of the many things that make me consider this game the greatest MMO ever. But…
Norn Thieves?
How does that even work?
I just got into the game. My main is currently only level 10, but I’m absorbing a lot of information. So even I know this is waaayy too out of place.
#1. It defies their very concept of honor.
So why would that even happen? It’s so confusing! The incredible Anglo-Saxon style of culture that the Norns hold makes thievery near impossible. Not only that..
#2. They’re freakin’ huge.
How would a Norn sneak up on someone to either assassinate them or steal their stuff?
Discuss!
1: It ‘s not dishonorable at all. One of the Spirits they revere is Raven, who values cunning, deception, and other such skills.
2: Size isn’t everything. You can be large and be cunning and sneaky. You simply have to be aware of yourself and have control of your faculties, both mental and physical.
I hope you haven’t forgotten my role in this little story. I’m the leading man.
You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.
Remember, a Norn thief isn’t at all large compared to other Norns. You could be a thief all your life and never even encounter one of the other races. At which point your size is irrelevant. Plus I don’t recall seeing anything that said they walk louder than any other races.
The only issue they’d have in other locales is small doors really. With so many of them being hunters, moving stealthily probably comes fairly naturally.
Just an aside, growing up I worked part of the year at a relative’s hunting/fishing cabin business in extreme northern Maine.
It was black bear country, and black bear are rather large animals, with big males upwards of 400 pounds. They, however, can be incredibly quiet when they want to be. We had several times where we happened to turn around and noticed a bear following us, without ever hearing a sound. During the season, while sitting on a tree stand, you would often hear nothing and suddenly a bear was there in front of you down below.
Even the monstrously huge (800 pound plus) and clumsy looking moose could be very quiet if they wanted to be.
Being large and bulky does not necessarily that someone can’t sneak up on things. Thievery and infiltration also do not always involve sneaking around.
You are just sitting peacefully in the living room with your wife enjoying a cup of tea. Then this huge towering norn bashes your door, comes into your house, picks up your television and starts walking away with a grin, whispering ‘and I’m not even using my bear form’. Would you even dare to stop this humongous beast? This is why the norn are the best thieves."
Should read
So imagine this:
You are just sitting peacefully in the living room with your wife enjoying a cup of tea. Then this huge towering FEMALE norn bashes your door, SLOWLY comes into your house, picks up your television and starts walking away with a grin, whispering ‘and I’m even using runspeed increases’. Would you even bother to stop this humongously slow beast right away? This is why the norn are the best thieves, for the krytan police force, they can stop for lunch and still catch the lumbering slow lummoxes :P
Also lets be honest, there are no thieves, the class is called "Blue Mage. We “steal” monster ability’s, use shadow magic to teleport, summon clones, have a average ability with both range and melee, make magical arrows that can change direction and can turn invisible for very short periods of time.
Do we steal anything of monetary value, no
can we steal anything in any story event, no
do we lock-pick, pick pocket or stay hidden for extended periods of time, no
So yeh Anet call it what it is, Blue Mage!
ok…or Assassin which was a much better name anyways.
You do realise norn got no code of honor right , all that matters is your legend, how you make it , does not matter. For a simple example , sons of svanir are welcome in the norn city.
That is the reason i love norn and asura , solve your own problems , and make your own name. Good and bad does not matter.
Gear Grind: Confirmed – Searching New MMO: Found – Changing MMO: Waiting Launch
Remember, a Norn thief isn’t at all large compared to other Norns. You could be a thief all your life and never even encounter one of the other races. At which point your size is irrelevant. Plus I don’t recall seeing anything that said they walk louder than any other races.
The only issue they’d have in other locales is small doors really. With so many of them being hunters, moving stealthily probably comes fairly naturally.
That’s pretty much it. In Guild Wars 1, before you do Curse of the Nornbear, Jora shows up outside of various outposts and mocks the player(‘s party) for how much noise they’re making. Now, that could have been trash talk pure and simple, but it seems to me to be suggesting that the norn are quite capable of being stealthy when they need to be.
Considering that most norn live by hunting (and those that don’t probably get most of their food by trading with hunters, directly or via steps) and in reality you probably don’t actually see most animals just standing around ignoring a ten-foot predator, I’d say it’s perfectly reasonable to have norn that focus on being stealthy. The average norn may even be stealthier than the average human… or asura. (Because really, you can probably hear the boasting from a typical asura from a quarter-mile away if you’re listening for it.)
To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.
Massive and big doesn’t equate to clumsy or loud. All it takes to be quiet is control and knowledge. That entire idea is a stereotype perpetuated by D&D. Some of the largest creatures in the animal kingdom are super sneaky and stealthy. You only hear about the big dumb loafs because they make for comedic elements in stories.
My thief is female norn, I made her as tiny as possible. She’s ginger, face full with freckles, that’s why she’s wearing anonymity hood. Noone would expect such childish norn to be deadly (almost like Pippi Langstrumpf)
I’m not using stealth really often, rather bouncing between enemies using daggers. Norn woman is strong herself (mostly power items), she’s hitting pretty strong even with the tiniest daggers. I tried to use sword, but it’s kinda slow and provides too little mobility. Also my norn is ‘tiny’ enough to be swift in combat
Every race has its more shady characters. Doesn’t matter how noble or honorable or whatever. Even the angels had fallen angels yes? Besides, Norn are not angels. They do what they have to do to survive. I see no problem there with them being thieves.
As for being too big? You forget, when you are making a thief, one of the options is a headband and it says under the headband these are bruisers. Brawlers who lack subtlety and fight in the front lines.
(well, a good example of big “thiefs” is shiro tagachi, ok he was an assassin, but you get the point, stealthy and sneaky is ok, but shiro was a big guy, and look at what he did)
