Guild Wars 2

I crafted a whole celestial gear ( 6 armor pieces + 3 trinkets by now ) the last weeks after that mf discussion. Would be pretty bad if I just lose 1 stat now.
They better give those items a 10% stat boost instead of mf.

Onkelbubu.3108:

I crafted a whole celestial gear ( 6 armor pieces + 3 trinkets by now ) the last weeks after that mf discussion. Would be pretty bad if I just lose 1 stat now.
They better give those items a 10% stat boost instead of mf.

Why not 20%.. Or 50 while you are at it.

Actually, Celestial gear is good if you do the math. And if they added extra stats to offset the MF then it will automatically be the gear of choice for anyone that doesn’t focus 3-4 specific stats (Full Glass/Bunker builds).

Example:

Say normally you get 200 stat points and it is divided as 90 Major, 55 Minor (x2). And Celestial gives you 210 total stat points divided into 35×6 + critical damage. If you increase the total stat then it becomes an automatic choice for a lot of builds. Say it was 40×6 to offset then you get 240 stat points. That is 40 stats more than a normal triple stat gear. Therefore you get a free stat and have critical damage.

Celestial is fine with or without MF. People like myself bought it because the math showed that it was a good set to use if you need at least 4-5 stats in your build.

Mh ok they remove 1 stat of 8 on that item, thats 12,5% less.
So increasing others by 10% to compensate is soooooo unrealistic right?

The MF was always a nice extra. I’ll keep using the celestial because it’s just a good combat set.

They wont buff celestial to compensate, according to dulfy

Celestial gear is good only in theory. In practise, it is inferior to other setups.

CuRtoKy.8576:

Actually, Celestial gear is good if you do the math. And if they added extra stats to offset the MF then it will automatically be the gear of choice for anyone that doesn’t focus 3-4 specific stats (Full Glass/Bunker builds).

Example:

Say normally you get 200 stat points and it is divided as 90 Major, 55 Minor (x2). And Celestial gives you 210 total stat points divided into 35×6 + critical damage. If you increase the total stat then it becomes an automatic choice for a lot of builds. Say it was 40×6 to offset then you get 240 stat points. That is 40 stats more than a normal triple stat gear. Therefore you get a free stat and have critical damage.

Celestial is fine with or without MF. People like myself bought it because the math showed that it was a good set to use if you need at least 4-5 stats in your build.

So you added up the stats…wow. That will surely work out in practise.

Avatara.1042:

So you added up the stats…wow. That will surely work out in practise.

lol it does if it didn’t I’m sure everyone would have said it was crap when Celestial Exotic Armors were released. You know if you thought outside of the box and look at the math then you would understand.

If you need Power, Precision, Toughness, and Vitality in a build along with critical damage then Celestial is a good choice to consider. If you already need these 5 stats then you are already building it into a non-celestial based armor set. So say the armor set gives you 1000 points normally (this is without critical damage). It would be divided in 3 stat areas (1 major, 2 minor) then you will mix stuff to get your desired levels of power, precision, toughness, and vitality. And if you want critical damage then you would have to take some stat away. Shoulders are 34-24-24 and if you get Zerk then it is 34-24-2% critical damage. You gave up 24 stats for 2% critical damage. This is important. That is why someone posted the 1% critical damage value of every armor piece, trinket, and weapon.

For Celestial it is just distributed differently. Say Celestial is 1100 points (cause all stat gives you extra stats) then it would just be divided by 6 different stat points which for 4 of them you would have to use anyways. The other 2 stats part of it you will get for free since you get additional stats for Celestial based items. For the remaining stat you can calculate for %critical damage since again you want that in your original build.

So my original argument is that if you give Celestial more stats it will just become the #1 choice for anyone that is not building a full bunker/glass cannon character and they need 4-5 stats in their build. The key is that things are just distributed differently but overall an entire armor set gives X amount of stat points for you to allocate. Same reason why some people mix knights, valk, zerk, and soldiers instead of just goings for 6x knight or 6x valk or 6x soldiers.

The math works out and GW2 uses these mathematical calculations to determine damage and damage mitigation. Feel free to do the math yourself if you don’t believe me.

Lol…

It is not as easy as 1 + 1 = 2. You are very rarely using all the offensive stats at the same time.

This is why theorycrafting is useless on its on.

They’re removing magic find as a stat from gear. It didn’t add anything to your offensive capabilities in celestial gear, so there’s no reason to compensate you for it not being there anymore.

SpeedFiend.4521:

They’re removing magic find as a stat from gear. It didn’t add anything to your offensive capabilities in celestial gear, so there’s no reason to compensate you for it not being there anymore.

I guess they better remove all non-offensive stats then, and add nothing back…

Seriously, did you even read what you posted?

Celestial is terrible as an endgame set from what I can see. Anything you need good gear to accomplish requires specialization depending on what role you are playing, and focusing on 3 or 4 stats using other sets or mixes of sets is going to provide vastly superior bonuses and effectiveness. It’s only when you are looking at 5-6 stats or higher that Celestial pulls ahead, and there aren’t any roles to perform with stats that spread thin.

Most content however is super easy and can be breezed through with blues or greens, which is where Celestial shines as an easy farming set. Celestial has slightly better offense compared to Explorer’s or Traveler’s, with extra defensive stats so you can farm while half asleep.

With the removal of MF on gear, Beserker’s or Rampager’s become the best farm sets because it’s all about pure kill speed, and specialized sets remain the best for serious endgame group content. Celestial will remain decent as an all around world content sort of set, but so would mixing one piece of every other set to get somewhat similar results.

I’m not sure any sort of boost to the stats on Celestial gear will solve the problem. For it to be viable as a serious item set the stats would have to be boosted so high it would become a clearly superior set to every other. I think instead they need to add something else unique to the set (1% run speed per piece, gold find, or some sort of on hit proc, etc.), or keep the MF on it as a unique bonus, maybe reduce it to 1% per piece.

Avatara.1042:

Lol…

It is not as easy as 1 + 1 = 2. You are very rarely using all the offensive stats at the same time.

This is why theorycrafting is useless on its on.

Really? If I land an hit in a fight I’m already using power, precision and critical damage. If I take a hit I’m using toughness and vitality. That’s 5 stats and the fight doesn’t look like any bizarre situation now does it?

Celestial is fine as it is without magic find, end of story, Devs even said magic find on celestial will just go away,

Wolfheart.1938:

Really? If I land an hit in a fight I’m already using power, precision and critical damage. If I take a hit I’m using toughness and vitality. That’s 5 stats and the fight doesn’t look like any bizarre situation now does it?

You don’t always take damage, or enough to matter. Sometimes you are supposed to take damage though, and having less than half the toughness/vit of a dedicated set isn’t good enough. When are you supposed to be doing significant damage and getting hit a lot? Even then, Knight’s or a similar set is probably better.

The fact that this is even arguable at this point means the ridiculous time sink and cost involved in making a set of Celestial is no longer warranted.

Avatara.1042:

SpeedFiend.4521:

They’re removing magic find as a stat from gear. It didn’t add anything to your offensive capabilities in celestial gear, so there’s no reason to compensate you for it not being there anymore.

I guess they better remove all non-offensive stats then, and add nothing back…

Seriously, did you even read what you posted?

I did read what I posted. But apparently you did not. Magic find does not in any way, shape or form affect the combat performance of your character. Magic find gear sacrifices other attributes to give you magic find. Celestial doesn’t sacrifice squat. It’s balanced around the stats you see in it now. Magic find on celestial gear doesn’t “detract” from it like it does on Explorer gear. It’s just an amusing curiosity of celestial gear, put there so it’s got ALL stats. The total stat gain from celestial gear already surpasses that of any and all other armor sets, and does so at the cost of not being specialised in any particular thing. Whether it has or does not have magic find on it, these are the combat-affecting stats it has been intended to have from the get go, so no, they’re not going to rebalance it beyond removing the magic find from it altogether.

Celestial looks impressive on paper but in reality not all stats are equal. The gradient of power far outstrips all others, the gradients of precision and crit damage depend heavily on each other and power, all of which are spread thin, vitality is rarely necessary even in the small quantities celestial gives. Add to that the bit where there will be more than one stat you aren’t even using; like condi in a power build, as well as stats like healing that are all or nothing due to pseudo-exponential scaling.

It’s a jack of all trades that is terrible at all of them.

A Massive Headache.1879:

Celestial is fine as it is without magic find, end of story, Devs even said magic find on celestial will just go away,

Except it isn’t fine. They were created and balanced with magic find as a stat, now they’re removing that stat without any compensation on those items.
A straight nerf just after they’ve introduced celestial armors and weapons, and without them saying anything about this nerf beforehand. And ignoring all they said about a compensation that had to be given along with the magic find removal.

Well, if MF was the reason you were using the armor, why didn’t you make a MF set exactly?

Manuhell.2759:

A Massive Headache.1879:

Celestial is fine as it is without magic find, end of story, Devs even said magic find on celestial will just go away,

Except it isn’t fine. They were created and balanced with magic find as a stat, now they’re removing that stat without any compensation on those items.
A straight nerf just after they’ve introduced celestial armors and weapons, and without them saying anything about this nerf beforehand. And ignoring all they said about a compensation that had to be given along with the magic find removal.

hey said long before that MF is going away. Live with I or get another set of armour. Without mf nothing will change towards your damage output, survivability etc. WHY should they give you more damage to compensate for drop rate?

Morsus.5106:

Well, if MF was the reason you were using the armor, why didn’t you make a MF set exactly?

MF was just one of the reason why i got it. It gave me a bit of everything. Now they’re simply removing it without any compensation – something they told they would have done along with the removal of said stat.

Alchemist.7523:

hey said long before that MF is going away. Live with I or get another set of armour. Without mf nothing will change towards your damage output, survivability etc. WHY should they give you more damage to compensate for drop rate?

Because they were balanced with all those stats originally – magic find included.
Since celestials were introduced since november – far before they thought about removing that stat. So why should i be glad of a straight nerf on my items, especially without that compensation – that we thought being simply replacing that stat – mentioned above?

Manuhell.2759:

Morsus.5106:

Well, if MF was the reason you were using the armor, why didn’t you make a MF set exactly?

MF was just one of the reason why i got it. It gave me a bit of everything. Now they’re simply removing it without any compensation – something they told they would have done along with the removal of said stat.

Alchemist.7523:

hey said long before that MF is going away. Live with I or get another set of armour. Without mf nothing will change towards your damage output, survivability etc. WHY should they give you more damage to compensate for drop rate?

Because they were balanced with all those stats originally – magic find included.
Since celestials were introduced since november – far before they thought about removing that stat. So why should i be glad of a straight nerf on my items, especially without that compensation – that we thought being simply replacing that stat – mentioned above?

No one said you should be glad, but just move on. I am happy they are removing and imo if the MF is one of he reasons you got Celestial gear, it is a wrong reason in my book.

Alchemist.7523:

No one said you should be glad, but just move on. I am happy they are removing and imo if the MF is one of he reasons you got Celestial gear, it is a wrong reason in my book.

I’m fine with the removal of the stat.
What i’m not fine with is that they’re nerfing celestial equips in doing so – cause we expected it to be substituted by something else, not just removed.
I’ll repeat myself: those items were balanced by also having magic find when they created them – the november patch, long before they ever thought about removing said stat.
It they just remove it, they’re nerfing it and making it subpar in their balance.

CuRtoKy.8576:

Avatara.1042:

So you added up the stats…wow. That will surely work out in practise.

lol it does if it didn’t I’m sure everyone would have said it was crap when Celestial Exotic Armors were released.

Funny thing, that’s exactly what people were saying then. It was good only for one purpose – as a MF gear.

Seeing how celestial gear is outperformed by PVT unless you can get at least perma burning (or equivalent condition damage), I believe a small compensation buff wouldn’t hurt. However, I’d prefer a +1 to all stats as that’s least likely to lead to problems.

Celestial was, actually, the super MF set. If you used it for anything else, and thought it was better to another choice, were you totally kidding yourself.

Avatara.1042:

Celestial gear is good only in theory. In practise, it is inferior to other setups.

At least with celestial I’m alive doing DPS while the zerk warriors are defeated on their first hit. Not only that, but I do more DPS than a purely defensive set. All in all, it gives a very healthy balance to balanced players.

As for the DPS stat spread … almost every weapon has both a condition and direct damage part. It’s never bad to have 2+2 = 5.

I wish they’d replace is with something, even if it’s a non-combat stat.

Like +Gold Find or +Experience.

Hell, +Sparkles even.

It has already been said many times in this thread, Celestial gives more stats, but spreads it all out – removing MF doesn’t change the combat efficiency. Celestial will always lack focus, so there’s really no way it could compete with more specialized sets without giving too much of everything.
Sure, they could do something interesting with the set, like replace MF with… a tiny amount movement speed? (since +karma, exp and gold are also account-wide)
Maybe they could look into tweaking the stats a little bit, but it still doesn’t scale like the specialized sets.

Come on guys, think with your head for a second. MF is a non combat related stat. Asking for a 10 % or even any % buff for other combat related stats is just absurd.

However, MF armor (the one with 3 stats) does need an appropriate replacement since those exotics will be missing a whole stat.

Well if they are set on removing the mf stat, AND we have already spent the time to make it, AND if they are making other armor sets be selectable craftable replacements….

Then they should at least give us the option to refund our charged quartz crystals and mats (giving back all runes/sigils in the process). This would be fair as an alternative to “just suck it up and deal” IMO.

Magic find didn’t add anything to celestial in stats. Only selfish players would be complaining it does.

Its not just armor people were using celestial gear for the mf on its also ascended jewelry and regardless of the reason yes the loss of mf on celestial gear is a nerf to the gear and lets be honest here, its a nerf that didn’t need to happen all content in this game could be completed by a full group of people in mf gear but to placate the masses of people who pug in a game called guildwars the stat is being removed from gear so they can finish their farm runs a couple minutes quicker lets just hope that toughness, vitality and condition damage aren’t next on the chopping block cause from what I’ve been seeing lately if it ain’t zerkers your apparently being selfish

Celestial is already over-budget. The Amulet has the equivalent of 389 Attribute Points. (Critical damage is worth 1% for every 9.4 stats) Compare this to A standard Ascended Amulet which have 296 Attribute Points.

31% more stats isn’t enough?

Not just only celestial gear. Every All stat gear, so this includes also every All stat ascendend items and not only the self crafted celestial stuff.

These items with All stats were from begin on balanced around the fact, that MF counts for them as a stat, that is part of all the stats and thus was considered as a calculation factor to reduce all the other stats.

A 3 stat item has a fix amount of points, that gets calculated through 3.
An All Stat Item before the change gets calculated its amount of fix points through 8

Now they remove 1 stat from that old balanced calculation, so they have to rebalance the stats from the other 7 remaining stats by increasing them slightly to compensate the loss of MF in the old balancing calculation!!

Takes this for example
http://wiki-en.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Eyes_of_Abaddon

All the stats like Power, Precision, Toughness ect. have only a value of 54 points, BECAUSE of the eigth attribute MF counting to that item.

Once MF is away, all those point stats that have currently a value of 54 should get buffed to like 60 to compensate the loss of MF

That would be 6 points more. In overall 6*6 > 36 overall points more mixed upon the stats that would compensate the loss of MF.

6 points more won’t make up for a dramatic change. it won’t make you deal instantly hundreds of damage points more, it won’t reduce your incoming damage to a minimum that you can survive instantly minutes longer, it won’t simply said make you into an undestructable super hero on god mode but it would make up for a little nice compensation for the loss of MF.

Simple removing MF is bad, because it will just make all All stat items in the game a bit more worthless, especially when MF counted for their balancing as a value to reduce the stats for all other stats to make the points for all the other stats not look too OP, when you consider anyways that no class does really need all stats of All stat items for their builds …

if you go critical hit builds, you basically don’t need condition damage.
Certain classes have such bad healing skills that scale terribly with healing power, that they basically feel no difference in their heals, even if you would give them like +200 Healing Power with accessoires.

Its absolutely not absurd to buff stats for items, which where balanced around MF as MF counting for those items as 8th stakittens totally irrelvant if that 8th stat is important for combat or not.
8th statt is 8th stat and as an 8th stat it was part of reducing the value for all the other stats to balance all the other stats as a whole, when compared to the 3 stat items, which have lesser points, but are therefore much better to specialize in 3 stats with higher points in those 3 stats.

Coldtart.4785:

Add to that the bit where there will be more than one stat you aren’t even using;

No, there won’t be. That’s the main reason people would build celestial – because their class and build scales equally well with ALL stats. Not all classes and builds work that way, but I do know that, at least for my power necromancer, there’s not a single stat in Celestial gear I’m not using efficiently. And as a result I end up with damage compairable to berserker’s and a lot of extra defence on top of that.
If that’s not true for your class and build, then you should not be building celestial. Simple as that.

Heh, I’ve actually got a new build that’s designed around Celestial.

Generally speaking, Celestial is good for giving you Sub Stats you need in a Build.

Celestial already has a significant stat advantage on other pieces of gear.

Celestial chest has 270 flat stats, 3% mf and 6% critdamage.
Berserker chest has 173 flat stats, no mf and 5% critdamage.

Celestial has 156% the flat stats of non-Celestial gear, aswell as an extra 1% critdamage and 3% magicfind.
We see similar ratio’s across the board on other pieces of gear.

Celestial has more then enough compensation. Boosting its flat stats even further just because MF is removed would just be uncalled for.

Just buy explorer gear and be done with it. Im sure you cna change that into celestial once the stat change thing goes in.

Coldtart.4785:

Celestial looks impressive on paper but in reality not all stats are equal. The gradient of power far outstrips all others, the gradients of precision and crit damage depend heavily on each other and power, all of which are spread thin, vitality is rarely necessary even in the small quantities celestial gives. Add to that the bit where there will be more than one stat you aren’t even using; like condi in a power build, as well as stats like healing that are all or nothing due to pseudo-exponential scaling.

It’s a jack of all trades that is terrible at all of them.

Agreed. Celestial was superb for players who wanted to have additional MF and still be of a value for a group. Compared to Explorers gear that basically meant that player is useless in a group. Not that MF is gone Celestial gear NEEDS a buff. Or it would quickly become gear that you put into bank and try to forget about money and time spent on it. Or into Mystic Forge. Without MF it is Jack of all trades, that is master of none

I got celestial because my engineer can make use of just about every stat. No matter what weapon I choose to use I still use power, precision, crit damage and condition damage. Being a close combat class I need vitality, toughness and healing to survive in between my cc or when enemys are immune to my cc (which happens alot).
Infact the only stat on the gear that I didnt care about was the MF, I learned back in my Diablo2 days that MF doesnt mean crap.
If your a lucky person like my friend Jelly, you can (and did) find a precurser off jormag after only a few tries and has only had the game for 4 months, but if your like me, some one thats had the game for a year and killed jormag as well as other boss events an uncountable amount of times yet never gotten more than a hand full of worthless exotics, all the MF in the world isnt going to help you.
Like I said, I learned along time ago that when it comes to Luck, some people have it, some people dont.
Maybe I’m just being cynical, or maybe its like that saying “Money doesnt buy happiness” the only people that say that are the ones that have money. So maybe the people that say theres no such thing as a lucky/unlucky person are the people that are lucky.

Wolfheart.1938:

Avatara.1042:

Lol…

It is not as easy as 1 + 1 = 2. You are very rarely using all the offensive stats at the same time.

This is why theorycrafting is useless on its on.

Really? If I land an hit in a fight I’m already using power, precision and critical damage. If I take a hit I’m using toughness and vitality. That’s 5 stats and the fight doesn’t look like any bizarre situation now does it?

Item 1 gives you 100 Power.
Item 2 gives you 120 Vitality.

By your logic, item 2 is better since you use both stats but item 2 has more. What went wrong here?

Celestial is fine as it is (not great, just fine) so it won’t be a huge problem if they just toggle the MF on it.
Anyway, i’ve spent 65 or more laurels on ascended celstial amulet and ring ONLY because they also had MF, i really hope they’ll give us the option to change it for another 3-stat combo (or to keep the new celestial without MF) as they’re doing with the other MF gear, otherwise i’ll be quite pi**ed to have THROWN AWAY all those laurels, and i think i’ll not be the only one.

I would prefer Celestial’s MF to be replaced with boon duration or something relatively equal to compensate.

Though the argument that celestial was the MF set to use is a completely valid argument, I got it more for the longevity purposes. I know that Celestial will be average no matter what spec, nerfs, class mechanics changes or random bimbo-du-jour kitch enemies they throw at us in the future.

Maybe swap around some runes and traits and you’re good to go. That’s how hard patch day will hit you from now on. Even if mf is gone forever on celestial with no compensation, it’ll still have an invisible stat of 100% discount to having to support tp flippers or spam run dungeons to get new gear.

Heck. toss 2% Boon Duration and 2% Condition Duration on each piece and I’d be extremely happy.

Boon and condition duration are combat oriented stats. MF is not. The only replacement for MF would be gold find, karma gain, or exp gain, in my opinion.

24-26% increase to boon duration or condition duration would be huge…

Kagamiku.9731:

Boon and combat duration are combat oriented stats. MF is not. The only replacement for MF would be gold find, karma gain, or exp gain, in my opinion.

It was still a stat that accounted for the balance of the item and that depended on combat for its use.
Either they put something useful – unlike those ones you mentioned above – or they should make it possible to reroll celestial items as well.

Personally I think gold find is a better stat than mf. Especially with the marginal bonus celestial gear gave. I rather have something I know benefits me, then something that slightly increases the RNG roll bonus. And I question whether mf accounted to balance the item in the first place, it already has very well rounded stats, and the crit damage on celestial gear doesn’t make a whole lot of sense considering you’re supposed to be sacrificing some of the stat, not gaining more of it.

Reroll sounds fair, though.