Guild Wars 2

I have already wasted 35 on the soon to be useless Celestial set. It better not be a 400-500 or Ascended ingredient.

Search you heart Avatara, deep down you know that it will!

As a more serious reply, I think charged quartz has a very high chance of being a component. Considering the one Ascended weapons we’ve seen has a rainbow colour sheen over it, quartz could be responsible for the refraction.

Well, I have 20 charged quartz left. I am glad I never made the Celestial Jewelry.

Hopefully they do not ruin the Ascended gear I make, with no compensation…

Would not surprise me if a specific T7 material can be made in different ways (think zephyr sanctum RNG boxes). Using charged quartz wouldn’t be the end of the world either with the current supply (similar in cost to T6), but could become a problem later without additional sources of quartz crystal.

I’m actually hoping it is a component. I have 54 charged quartz sitting in my bank doing nothing at the moment and it’d be nice to be able to put them to use on something other than celestial weapons and armor that I don’t currently have a use for. That doesn’t mean it needs to be a huge component of course. It should be reasonable.

They’ve hardly made celestial gear useless. If you want MF gear you should’ve gone with MF gear.

I am tired of the time gated crap. Why do they keep coming up with ideas that nobody likes….

Charged quartz seems like an intuitive way of time gating recipes. Although they would need another way to earn it for your home instance for new players, otherwise youd be locking an entire tier of weapons to people who only played for a specific period of time. Could you imagine the uproar?

Its much more likely that a new tier of crafting mats will come alongside the recipes, or mats we already have to create new components until crafting the weapon. Think of it like crafting multiple exotics, then combining those exotics with a rarer crafting mat to create a whole new weapon.

timidobserver.7925:

I am tired of the time gated crap. Why do they keep coming up with ideas that nobody likes….

Cause they have to keep us playing the game for a long time. Some people just want to get the highest level stuff and usually burn themselves out. This way people don’t burn out. So you can always go hit up WvW which is basically my end game.

I think time gated gear is a great idea

kahzee.6042:

I think time gated gear is a great idea

What’s the weather like in Bizarro World?

It’s going to be charged quartz on top of some other time gated material, within a totally time gated recipe. It’s going to most likely going to rival the acquisition of current laurel gear (about a month/piece).

This has potential to be a game breaker for me, personally. I hope they do it creatively so that the crafting is engaging, rather than the current method to get quartz. Colin mentioned that the materials will be acquired through daily activities etc, and if those activities are ones which actually keep me and many others engaged in the content, I’m all for it.

This may be how they plan to spread the population throughout their many available activities.

Uther Deathhand.1570:

timidobserver.7925:

I am tired of the time gated crap. Why do they keep coming up with ideas that nobody likes….

Cause they have to keep us playing the game for a long time. Some people just want to get the highest level stuff and usually burn themselves out. This way people don’t burn out. So you can always go hit up WvW which is basically my end game.

If time-gating is the way of the future I won’t be playing at all, so there definitely won’t be any burning out. Hopefully it is just a fad that goes away after it gets enough unpopularity.

bravoart.5308:

kahzee.6042:

I think time gated gear is a great idea

What’s the weather like in Bizarro World?

Although I am also against, I can see how more casual players can agree with it. In a game that does not promote vertical progression yet trickles it out on rare occasion, it’s important for players to feel like they can engage in content at any time. This is one of the reasons the first Guild Wars was so successful. It’s also a reason that turns people away from traditional MMO models.

Time gating is a method that is respectful to individual players’ time. The downside is that players often feel unrewarded for time invested, which is why the game will offer more immediate rewards of the same quality (ascended gear being offered as drops and rings acquired from fractals). I’m only defending time gating because it seems to be the method we are going to have to live with.

Another thing to keep in mind is the fact that this game is financially dependent on a microtransaction shop. It’s vital to the survival of the game overall for players to log on regularly to perhaps spend money in that shop, and time gating ensures that people actually spend time in the game. I’m grateful that the game doesn’t have a subscription, and I wind up spending significantly more than the standard 15$/mo in the gem shop.

But more on topic, I’m glad to see that people support time gating, even though I and many other players do not. Seeing players in support of time gated content shows that the game has devoted players that plan on being around a long time.

Gnat.9405:

bravoart.5308:

kahzee.6042:

I think time gated gear is a great idea

What’s the weather like in Bizarro World?

Although I am also against, I can see how more casual players can agree with it. In a game that does not promote vertical progression yet trickles it out on rare occasion, it’s important for players to feel like they can engage in content at any time. This is one of the reasons the first Guild Wars was so successful. It’s also a reason that turns people away from traditional MMO models.

Time gating is a method that is respectful to individual players’ time. The downside is that players often feel unrewarded for time invested, which is why the game will offer more immediate rewards of the same quality (ascended gear being offered as drops and rings acquired from fractals). I’m only defending time gating because it seems to be the method we are going to have to live with.

Another thing to keep in mind is the fact that this game is financially dependent on a microtransaction shop. It’s vital to the survival of the game overall for players to log on regularly to perhaps spend money in that shop, and time gating ensures that people actually spend time in the game. I’m grateful that the game doesn’t have a subscription, and I wind up spending significantly more than the standard 15$/mo in the gem shop.

But more on topic, I’m glad to see that people support time gating, even though I and many other players do not. Seeing players in support of time gated content shows that the game has devoted players that plan on being around a long time.

I don’t think it shows anything more than people being happy the other people will be forcibly slowed down to their speed.

Well the competitive factor of time gating is kind of a strange argument considering it’s a race in which everyone has the potential to go the same speed with no drawbacks. The only way to progress slow than others is to literally do nothing. If you participate in the content, you will benefit the same as anyone else who does so. Players being happy about others not progressing quickly is an issue that has nothing to do with the fact that time gating works as a mechanism to keep people engaged, if done so in an interesting, engaging way. Quartz was not a good way to do it for many reasons, the two most notable ones were A.) the method to acquire charged quartz was not engaging; and B.) celestial gear is not appealing enough a reward to be interested in gated content. Ascended gear, however, is an enticing reward that players actively engaging in current content will be interested in.

What you suggest, and correct me if I’m wrong, is that some players are in favor of time gated gear strictly so others can’t progress faster than they can. To that, I ask what those players have to gain? I would assume that players with this mentality will be the ones that fall behind from the beginning.

My argument is considering the playerbase that engages in the gated content because they genuinely want the gear, and the time gate is not a factor because they planned on playing the game during that time anyway.

The only reason players are against time gating is because they want to be rewarded for their time immediately, but these are also the players that will immediately complain about their being no content in the game.

Gnat.9405:

Well the competitive factor of time gating is kind of a strange argument considering it’s a race in which everyone has the potential to go the same speed with no drawbacks. The only way to progress slow than others is to literally do nothing. If you participate in the content, you will benefit the same as anyone else who does so. Players being happy about others not progressing quickly is an issue that has nothing to do with the fact that time gating works as a mechanism to keep people engaged, if done so in an interesting, engaging way. Quartz was not a good way to do it for many reasons, the two most notable ones were A.) the method to acquire charged quartz was not engaging; and B.) celestial gear is not appealing enough a reward to be interested in gated content. Ascended gear, however, is an enticing reward that players actively engaging in current content will be interested in.

What you suggest, and correct me if I’m wrong, is that some players are in favor of time gated gear strictly so others can’t progress faster than they can. To that, I ask what those players have to gain? I would assume that players with this mentality will be the ones that fall behind from the beginning.

My argument is considering the playerbase that engages in the gated content because they genuinely want the gear, and the time gate is not a factor because they planned on playing the game during that time anyway.

The only reason players are against time gating is because they want to be rewarded for their time immediately, but these are also the players that will immediately complain about their being no content in the game.

It’s not a race worth running if you are shooting the fast runners in the knee in order to give the slow runners a chance.

I spend a lot of time on GW2 and I don’t have a single charged quartz because I simply don’t like the timegating system. I find it to be a mind numbing thing to put a person that regularly plays the game through. At least with a legendary you can actively work toward it as much as you want to.

I’m indifferent about time-gated materials. I would enjoy the extra convenience if it was removed, and I would enjoy the slower pace if it was included. Either way, I win.

You can bet your sweet new set of worthless celestial gear that they will put time gating in their time gating. After all, they know how much we all love time gating.

Well that was my point, the fastest runners are everyone doing the bare minimum necessary for the reward. It isn’t a race in the traditional sense if everyone is running the same speed – there is no way to be punished unless you choose not to participate, and in that case, who is at fault? Certainly not the developer. Time gating is placed specifically to avoid that gear treadmill.

The main reason I am against time gating is because it’s a very intimidating system for new players and players that play regularly across multiple characters. ANet has the potential of alienating players with many alts and new players once the content is upgraded to meet the needs of the gear. Now of course the possibility exists for these players to play amongst themselves, similar to how low level maps are heavily populated during the time of launch, and progress at a later interval than those keeping up with the time gating on one character, but that is not healthy for an MMO. The mechanics in this game (specifically scaling) are built around allowing all players to play together on a relatively level playing field (I am specifically addressing PvE content).

What ANet has to consider is that new players will be significantly behind. WoW addressed this issue, for example, by offering early quest rewards from new expansions (when the largest number of new/returning players were entering) that immediately outgeared the best gear from the previous expansion. I’m sure GW won’t offer ascended gear for virtually nothing as soon as content that requires it is live.

They need to do something useful with charged quartz. They added another mat with it, gave us one single quartz node in our home district and time gated it like crazy. For everyone who doesn’t want Celestial gear, it’s pretty much worthless. Sure you can sell it, but it’s not worth the bother of mining it every day and wating to create a charged quartz to sell. I haven’t touched the node in my home. It’s a waste of time and storage space. If they fail to require it for something else, it will fade into utter worthlessness.

I think the quartz node was a huge foreshadow into the upcoming ascended gear. As mentioned above, I would place my bets that charged quartz will be used in crafting ascended gear and the forums will flood with the rage of those who did not keep up with their charged quartz crafting, and they will as usual try to find a way to blame ANet for their discrepancy.

File this under: reasons I told all my guildies to not make any celestial gear and why I saved up all of mine.

And rightfully so. I didn’t keep up with my crafting ch.quartz, but I also think that there is going to be another gate within the crafting method that will make it so everyone starts at day 1 with no advantage regardless of how any of X mats they already have.

Then there is also the possibility that ch.quartz will have no place in the new crafting. We know that totally new materials are going to be introduced with the update.

Gnat.9405:

Well that was my point, the fastest runners are everyone doing the bare minimum necessary for the reward. It isn’t a race in the traditional sense if everyone is running the same speed – there is no way to be punished unless you choose not to participate, and in that case, who is at fault? Certainly not the developer. Time gating is placed specifically to avoid that gear treadmill.

The main reason I am against time gating is because it’s a very intimidating system for new players and players that play regularly across multiple characters. ANet has the potential of alienating players with many alts and new players once the content is upgraded to meet the needs of the gear. Now of course the possibility exists for these players to play amongst themselves, similar to how low level maps are heavily populated during the time of launch, and progress at a later interval than those keeping up with the time gating on one character, but that is not healthy for an MMO. The mechanics in this game (specifically scaling) are built around allowing all players to play together on a relatively level playing field (I am specifically addressing PvE content).

What ANet has to consider is that new players will be significantly behind. WoW addressed this issue, for example, by offering early quest rewards from new expansions (when the largest number of new/returning players were entering) that immediately outgeared the best gear from the previous expansion. I’m sure GW won’t offer ascended gear for virtually nothing as soon as content that requires it is live.

It most definitely punishes the faster runners, or in other words, players that play the game regularly. There is no getting around that. I don’t really mind excessive activities to accomplish a task in a game. I do mind a lot of empty space being placed in between objectives. It is the lazy approach IMO.

I prefer active over inactive mechanics.
Active = go do x.
Inactive = sit and wait x time in order to make sure all of the slower people have caught up.

Time gating is one thing. Gating by requiring you to do something every day or your whole time gets pushed back by that day is another.

Sure, I’m in game pretty much daily, and should be able to hop to my instance, mine some quartz, then jaunt over to the Garrison to make a charged crystal. Once it turns into a chore, though, my interest plummets. Even more so given that I have 7 80s and haven’t bothered with Ascended on any of them because I frankly don’t feel a need for microscopic boosts from BiS. Celestial has felt more bothersome to make than must have.

If the new skins are compelling enough I could see working towards crafting them. For stats? Meh. WoW lost my interest pretty much from BWE1 when I experienced a game without daily requirements. I’ve dealt with dailies for laurels because they’ve been fun, been part of regular play, and offered a good way to level alts. Now I’m out of alts I care to level. Since I get 10 dyes every 5 laurels, that will keep me going. A stat upgrade after a month of work? I have other things to do with my time!

I agree with you completely. In one of my posts I mentioned that celestial gear was done all wrong. If they offer an engaging way to gain the materials so that it feels like I’m playing the game for a reward rather than going to do the job of crafting a material and then being finished with it for the day, I’m for it.

My point in that particular post, is that time gating makes playing the game regularly (as you mentioned) will be the only way to acquire the gear. That isn’t really running faster if you are that type of player; that is normal pace. There is either normal pace or slow when it comes to time gating.

As far as waiting for people to catch up, that isn’t really how it works. There will always be players who do not engage in the gated content – that does not stop you from progressing.

But it seems as if we both agree that as long as the time gating is something that is keeping the players active in the game it isn’t a massive problem, as opposed to the current celestial crafting. I’m am of the mind to consider celestial gear an experiment – testing the water for the larger release of gated progression, coming on the 3rd.

I have no idea how getting kitten fast as possible can be thought of as ok. If everything was able to get in one day where would the fun be?

Gnat.9405:

Time gating is a method that is respectful to individual players’ time.

It’s not. Time gating is fine-tuned using as a basis someone that logs in every day – i’m pretty sure that the majority of players don’t do that.
And if you don’t log in every day, then suddenly you are faced with timegates that are ridiculously long.

kahzee.6042:

I have no idea how getting kitten fast as possible can be thought of as ok. If everything was able to get in one day where would the fun be?

In actually playing the game. Logging every day on an alt with several stacks of crystals in inventory, parked near a skillpoint is hardly my definition of fun.

Well personally I’m coming to a point where my usual daily gaming time can easily be covered by ticking the current daily boxes, so I wouldn’t mind more time gated stuff, as it would mean I would probably get them faster than putting it on a hideous grind.

I don’t want charged quartz to be ingredient too, and i dont like time gating. I don’t want to be forced to do thigs slowly if i can do them fast, or to be forced to log every day to do crafting if i don’t have time for it.
This is bad concept. Before release Anet promised they will never force us to do grinding and other boring things to get to good stuff. If they will implent it, they will horribly break that promise.
I want to just lvl my crafting to 500 create weapons and go to do what i want to do…Higher lvl factals. If i will be forced to log every day and do same things every day becouse of time gating to be able to do Hight fractals i will be forced to do griding/boring stuff to get to good stuff.

Want to spice up a conversation? On this forum it’s simple. Throw in one or a combination of following words and watch the topic boom:

1. Grind
2. Manifesto
3. Mary Sue

Success guaranteed!

Evans.6347:

Want to spice up a conversation? On this forum it’s simple. Throw in one or a combination of following words and watch the topic boom:

1. Grind
2. Manifesto
3. Mary Sue

Success guaranteed!

I think you fail to see the problem here…
Under ANet’s new twisted manifesto, they’re expecting us to grind through a boring storyline run by a bunch of Mary Sue characters.

Yes, all in one sentence! Profit!

Okay, allow me to clarify: time gating is respectful to players’ time in the sense that it demands only a fixed, usually small amount of real time per day in order to achieve. If ascended gear was places on a constant grind, such as being an exceptionally rare item exclusively from dungeons, in which you had to collect X00 of material to craft, that is a grind that is not respectful to players’ time. Admittedly those methods do exist in the game but they are in no case required for top quality gear. Dungeon gear you can get at a daily pace, like everyone else. It’s not the only option but it is a guaranteed option.

Laurel gear for example takes a significant amount of time to acquire, but everyone keeping up with it will have gotten it at the same time. Daily activities I achieve laurels are respectful in that they demand less than an hour of playtime to get. This leaves the entire day for people to do other activities, or more importantly, log into the game for that short time available for them to play, get their daily gated reward (which may be the only content they have time for), and log back out while staying current with the content.

People are quick to consider ANet’s methods as malicious drives to eat up players’ time but in reality the amount of time needed to accomplish the game’s goals on a daily basis is so small that, given my schedule, I am grateful for the opportunity to stay current and not too far behind even if I miss a couple of days of achievements.

I think most of the ones complaining about time gated progression are those with hours and hours of free time they choose to spend on games. They hate the fact that for all the “work” they put into the game, they still cannot progress any faster than the people who only play an hour a day.

But there are also those to consider who can only play on weekend and not at all on weekdays (for example). Time gated progression hurts them badly, even if they could in total spend as many hours in game as the ones playing one hour every day.

In the end it comes to the developer point of view. Time gated progression ensures they will have a healthy number of players logging in every day, keeping the game “alive”.

There are cons and pros to each approach.

As a middle ground, developers could move away from dailies and towards weeklies/monthlies. We already got the latter, but changing the dailies to weeklies would allow people to spend their playtime more flexibly.

That’s a fair point, and although I don’t like using this argument I think in this case it may apply:

If a player does not have at least 5 hours during the week to play, it is probable that staying current with top quality gear is not at the top of their priorities. This may be a bit presumptuous, I’ll admit.

The option of weekly achievements that may be completed on a daily basis or in sum at the end of the week is a fantastic idea as long as the crafting method can accommodate both options – meaning that you can either craft 1 piece a day, 7 at the end of the week, or any combination thereof. I don’t think this will affect log statistics because people that regularly log in are going to take the daily option anyway.

Uther Deathhand.1570:

timidobserver.7925:

I am tired of the time gated crap. Why do they keep coming up with ideas that nobody likes….

Cause they have to keep us playing the game for a long time. Some people just want to get the highest level stuff and usually burn themselves out. This way people don’t burn out. So you can always go hit up WvW which is basically my end game.

Then make a game that players want to play because it’s fun, not because there is some time gated mechanic holding them back or temporary content they don’t want to miss out on

Respect your consumers enough to appeal to them through good gameplay, not manipulative design mechanics which encourage them to play for the wrong reasons.

When charged Quarz crystals will be a new ingridient, I want my 45 back which i put into celestial gear + the 45 ectos.

Tom Gore.4035:

I think most of the ones complaining about time gated progression are those with hours and hours of free time they choose to spend on games. They hate the fact that for all the “work” they put into the game, they still cannot progress any faster than the people who only play an hour a day.

How fast other people progress has nothing to do with it. We aren’t competing with them, their progress doesn’t impede ours and neither can they: they’re just there. In all likelihood you’d never even notice their time-to-reward ratio unless you were stalking them or something.

Time gating itself has an impact on progression: it limits us from advancing at our own pace. Not only if we’d otherwise be faster, but slower too, given the tendency toward daily resets. With content gated like that, 1hr 7 days a week becomes vastly better than 7hrs 1 day a week or even 14 hrs 2 days a week, and likewise any additional characters you have (unless you buy another account, hint hint) extend the time it takes you without allowing you to increase your progress by trying harder to meet the requirements.

There’s no need to look beyond that for reasons to hate it, it’s an arbitrary door getting slammed in our faces whenever we demonstrate a willingness to put in more effort than somebody somewhere has decided is proper.

Onkelbubu.3108:

When charged Quarz crystals will be a new ingridient, I want my 45 back which i put into celestial gear + the 45 ectos.

Agreed. Refund on Celestial gear for those who want it should happen. Removing a stat with zero compensation is extremely unfair and a good way to lose what little faith people have left.

timidobserver.7925:

Gnat.9405:

bravoart.5308:

kahzee.6042:

I think time gated gear is a great idea

What’s the weather like in Bizarro World?

Although I am also against, I can see how more casual players can agree with it. In a game that does not promote vertical progression yet trickles it out on rare occasion, it’s important for players to feel like they can engage in content at any time. This is one of the reasons the first Guild Wars was so successful. It’s also a reason that turns people away from traditional MMO models.

Time gating is a method that is respectful to individual players’ time. The downside is that players often feel unrewarded for time invested, which is why the game will offer more immediate rewards of the same quality (ascended gear being offered as drops and rings acquired from fractals). I’m only defending time gating because it seems to be the method we are going to have to live with.

Another thing to keep in mind is the fact that this game is financially dependent on a microtransaction shop. It’s vital to the survival of the game overall for players to log on regularly to perhaps spend money in that shop, and time gating ensures that people actually spend time in the game. I’m grateful that the game doesn’t have a subscription, and I wind up spending significantly more than the standard 15$/mo in the gem shop.

But more on topic, I’m glad to see that people support time gating, even though I and many other players do not. Seeing players in support of time gated content shows that the game has devoted players that plan on being around a long time.

I don’t think it shows anything more than people being happy the other people will be forcibly slowed down to their speed.

Actually neither of these is true. The most reasonable representation of what a casual is, is someone who doesn’t have the time necessary to play consistently or regularly or often. Basically someone with time constraints. Time gating, therefore, can hurt casuals even more than others because if they have an hour to play and they don’t use a portion of that how to do the thing they can only do once a day, they just lost that day for that thing. So while it slows down people without time constraints it can potentially cripple those with them.

The people who are happy with this, or at least don’t mind it, are those like me who just don’t care about it in the first place. Some day I’ll go to the effort of making one of these, if it takes me a month, then it takes me a month, not a big deal. It doesn’t hurt me to not have it immediately, therefore I’m content to let it take a while to complete.

I will say, though, that if Ascended gear requires quartz I’ll be happy I didn’t sell the ones I have. If it doesn’t I’ll be annoyed that I converted as many as I did to charged, cause I’ll never use them.

I belive it would be ingridient only for celestial stat ascended weps.

Actually neither of these is true. The most reasonable representation of what a casual is, is someone who doesn’t have the time necessary to play consistently or regularly or often. Basically someone with time constraints. Time gating, therefore, can hurt casuals even more than others because if they have an hour to play and they don’t use a portion of that how to do the thing they can only do once a day, they just lost that day for that thing. So while it slows down people without time constraints it can potentially cripple those with them.

Like I mentioned, people who are that limited on time usually do not prioritize chasing top quality gear.

Another thing to keep in mind is that time gating is important in a game that has a constant flow of new content. It may not be intentional, but a certain side effect of time gating is the fact that it allows people to spend very limited amounts of time on one relatively small aspect of the game (in this case, crafting) and freeing up the remainder of their time to stay current with the more immediate, important content (living story). I don’t think that players that only have time for weekend play will consider crafting ascended gear over playing SAB. This isn’t necessarily because they feel overwhelmed by the time gated crafting, but because they feel playing SAB will be a better use of their time, and more importantly, ascended gear is not required for their regular gaming routine.

Another thing to note is the fact that ascended gear will be possible to acquire through world drops, completely avoiding the time gate.

Astralporing.1957:

Gnat.9405:

Time gating is a method that is respectful to individual players’ time.

It’s not. Time gating is fine-tuned using as a basis someone that logs in every day – i’m pretty sure that the majority of players don’t do that.
And if you don’t log in every day, then suddenly you are faced with timegates that are ridiculously long.

kahzee.6042:

I have no idea how getting kitten fast as possible can be thought of as ok. If everything was able to get in one day where would the fun be?

In actually playing the game. Logging every day on an alt with several stacks of crystals in inventory, parked near a skillpoint is hardly my definition of fun.

So play the game? You don’t have to be parked near a skillpoint.

knbBlackTemplar.3059:

I belive it would be ingridient only for celestial stat ascended weps.

so if we assume you could craft a full set of armor and weapons (not that we can, like back pieces for example), it would take 65-70 days to get the charged Quartz for a full set (if you craft everything, no laurels and such)….so….

would it take 325-350 days to make a full set of celestial ascended gear?

Dailies and daily gated stuff is very anti-casual.

If they really want time gating without leaving people who don’t play a bunch out of it then make the ability to gather stuff for the amount of days you haven’t been on. For example, if i don’t play for 30 days because I don’t like time gating, then I should be able to collect 30 days of those materials all in the day I get back. I can then craft with those items that day as well. If I have to play consecutive days or I miss out, then I will be looking for a new game.
Side note: I think I have 2700 hours of this game played.
I am just really tired of the pattern I am seeing. If they keep going down this path, people that take a break to play other games for a year or so will come back and not be able to just jump in content with old friends. In GW1, you could leave and come back and sure, you may have to do a campaign, but that meant you were just playing the game to get to where your friends were. There wasn’t a gear hurdle in the way. The content they will make a year from now will be respectful of the best gear at the time. I don’t agree with the decision.

Or they could do a weekly cap, instead of daily.

They mentioned that 2014 will not have a new gear tier introduced. This gives players ample time to create gear significant to design. I would bet that the only content that actually requires PvE ascended gear will be higher level fractals for a very long time. Casuals aren’t participating in that anyway.