Guild Wars 2

Auesis.7301:

I was told Liadri was going to be a hellstorm, that only the best of the best in the game would be able to take her down. Yet, half my guild has managed to do it, and so have a bunch of other people I’ve talked to.

I hope TM is more of the old school difficulty I crave. Kill me! KILL MEEEE!

You should ask all those people in your guild how long/ how many attempts it took for them to kill her. Just because quite a few people have beaten her doesn’t mean it was easy to do so. It took me over 95 tries to beat her. Difficult =/= impossible.

Makani Eldrinn.5638:

Josh Foreman.8250:

(which I’m not aware of having a name yet… let me know if you’ve heard of one)

It may not be correct, but I’ve heard of these type of games being referred to as “platforming hell”. Either way I’m looking forward to the challenge.

I don’t think it has an established name yet, some people call them torture platformers (obviously derived from puzzle platformer).

Next: Automatic mode!

For all the people who want rewards without working towards them, now they can play the game without playing the game!

From what I read here it doesn’t look it will be fun. While I did beat cat mario from 1 to 5 I didn’t find it was fun because the game constantly changes the rules to a point where the only way to keep going is to die over and over until you discover all the traps. At that point the traps were unavoidable because you don’t have any tells and if you don’t have any tells you can’t make a choice, if you can’t make a choice there is no skill.

Krugan.7901:

From what I read here it doesn’t look it will be fun. While I did beat cat mario from 1 to 5 I didn’t find it was fun because the game constantly changes the rules to a point where the only way to keep going is to die over and over until you discover all the traps. At that point the traps were unavoidable because you don’t have any tells and if you don’t have any tells you can’t make a choice, if you can’t make a choice there is no skill.

Yeah, it won’t be my cup of tea either. I’m glad some people enjoy it. What I don’t understand is why it has to come with unique rewards? Didn’t Josh state that it was all about the communication between the creator and the player? Why do they need another reward on top of that ‘special connection’?

Shinzan.2908

The simplest example I can give is a path where you can go left and right, if the left path has an instant dead trap then you just learn to avoid it and take the right one next.

Having the trap appear on a random path each time would be BS and in that case complains about unfairness and fake difficulty would be valid imo.

Shoud have relied to this sooner

I never talked about Random. The simplest example you gave is a path where you can go left and right, if the left path has an instant dead trap then you just learn to avoid it and take the right one next….So, in what way is that enjoyable?

In Ninja Gaiden, its the same way. Every Game has a little Trial and Error. You can die a very quick death, BUT, Where Ninja Gaiden differs (especially the later ones) from Cat Mario, and I am guessing TM, is in 3 things. (the next few paragraphs might sound like nonsense to some of you)

1) if you know the limitations of your character. 2) if you actually stop for two seconds and observe the actions of your enemies, and 3) you have quick reflexes and your timing is good. you can normally escape certain death every time. Trial and error, while necessary for some players, it was never required to actually beat the game. Super Mario Bros. is the same way. Yes you can memerize every enemy position where they spawn and exactly what you need to do to kill them (and you can even do that in Guild Wars 2), but you don’t have to in these games. I don’t have to get killed by a Twisted Horror to know how to kill it and avoid death, I only have to watch how it acts to my attacks, and how it acts when attacking, and I react accordingly. I didn’t know that it had a crazy attack that applies lots of confusion, but it also didn’t require me to die to learn about it.

Cat Mario (and I am guessing TM) don’t do that. They want you to follow a very specific path or certain death will be a certainty, not only that, but death is a certainty, no matter how you play because that is how it is designed. There is no timing involved, or using your ninja reflexes to escape any death. you must know where all the death traps are so you can avoid them, and,…that’s it, and to know where those death traps are requires dying in those death traps. That’s why I don’t think its going to be difficult, just time consuming, and nothing else.

Chrispy.5641:

Cat Mario (and I am guessing TM) don’t do that. They want you to follow a very specific path or certain death will be a certainty, not only that, but death is a certainty, no matter how you play because that is how it is designed. There is no timing involved, or using your ninja reflexes to escape any death. you must know where all the death traps are so you can avoid them, and,…that’s it, and to know where those death traps are requires dying in those death traps. That’s why I don’t think its going to be difficult, just time consuming, and nothing else.

If i understand him right, it is about mind games. Not only trial and error, but learn how designer of this place is thinking, where he placed his traps. Reflex his toughts and try to avoid traps.

ezd.6359:

If i understand him right, it is about mind games. Not only trial and error, but learn how designer of this place is thinking, where he placed his traps. Reflex his toughts and try to avoid traps.

It’s definitely about mind games. Playing I Wanna Be The Guy: Gaiden last year, after running into enemies throughout the game who had emerged from behind a pile of rocks to usually quickly kill you, when I reached a point where I’d be jumping down from a high platform to land on a lower area with a pile of rocks in front of me, I thought to myself “Well, there’ll be an enemy bursting out of there, so I’d better be ready”. But then I stopped, and realized that that’s what I’d been trained to think, and in a game like this that’s exactly what’s going to get me killed.

So when I jumped down there, rather than aiming my gun at the rocks I turned around and aimed it at the empty space behind me. Sure enough, that’s where the enemy suddenly popped up, and I was ready for it and killed it before it could kill me. I was happy, I’d out-mindgamed the designer. I’d realized what he wanted me to think on reaching that section, and realized what he would be thinking himself. It felt good!

Then I took a few steps forward and got squashed by Zangief coming through the ceiling delivering a spinning piledriver to Chun-Li.

I still felt good for that brief, shining moment beforehand.

Kain Francois.4328:

Next: Automatic mode!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9okEGkyoDtU

For all the people who want rewards without working towards them, now they can play the game without playing the game!

This is the single greatest thing I’ve had the fortune of witnessing. My god.

Just wanted to say that those types of games have been affectionately dubbed the “masocore” genre, in case nobody else mentioned it. I am looking forward to this

Also, what a coincidence. Automatic mario showed up on groove shark right after I clicked the link…

Oh yeah, this is gonna be SWEET. The old-school NES/SNES gamer in me is cracking his knuckles in anticipation. (My claim to fame was that I could beat Contra from start to finish without losing a single life. I played that game SO much as a kid. XD)

The best part about it all? Since SAB is now permanently returning content, there’s no need to tear your hair out if it’s all getting to be too much. If you find yourself getting too frustrated, step out and take a break. Wait till the next time the SAB returns if you have to. There’s always going to be time for another crack at it.

How much progress can be lost in the span of a single life? This is a pretty important question when you are drawing parallels to games like IWBTG.

Sadly, make-enemies-hit-harder-and-give-you-less-health seems to be the main design philosophy in most dungeons… especially fractals. When i leveld up my fractal level i expected nee mechanics and boss skills and stuff to be added, but not. Thry just have an ungodly amount of health and kill you in 2 hits.

Really, dungeon developers could learn something from the super adventure box team.

Josh Foreman.8250:

I’m going to lay out the game philosophy behind how we decided to do Tribulation Mode because I think it’s going to be misunderstood by a lot of folks.

First, here’s a playthrough of two games that are in the style we are doing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22oTEDa2Rxk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAH2KMiscqY

Some people aren’t aware that this genre exists, and SAB TM may be their first exposure to it. We took a creative risk by going in this direction with it rather than the standard make-enemies-hit-harder-and-give-you-less-health approach that most games use to ramp up difficulty. That would have been very easy and very safe. (And probably more popular.) But we never do anything the easy or safe way.

The thing that makes this approach tricky is that on its surface, it seems to be bad design because it is intrinsically unfair. What fans of the genre understand is that there is a depth there that comes from a really interesting dynamic in the communication between the designer and the player that doesn’t exist in other games. It’s hard to articulate, but I would say it’s something like friendly pranking. There’s great pleasure to be had in finding ways to outwit a prankster. And that can’t happen unless you have a prankster. And that’s what the designer provides. People who don’t ‘get’ this kind of game see it like the designer is trolling out of cruelty, and so they read malicious intent into the invisible insta-kills. But that’s just not the case. It’s simply a specific kind of content made for a specific kind of player who wants in on the pranks. Yes, raging is part of the process. In fact, I rage at myself when I play TM all the time!

And the thing about how it is unfair: yes, it is. However there is a deep satisfaction to be had in overcoming in an unfair fight. In these games your only real power is tenacity. And besides, it’s only unfair in the short feedback loops. (Here’s some information on feedback loops in game design: ) http://www.jorisdormans.nl/machinations/wiki/index.php?title=Feedback_Analysis_and_Recurrent_Patterns

But the longer (and more substantive) feedback loop is a process of learning how the designer thinks. Discovering that style and finding how to navigate the level better as a result. The first lesson is this: the most obvious easy way will most likely kill you. The harder, more circuitous rout will probably be the way to go. This creates a joy of discovery and overcoming that few other genres can provide. But it is an acquired taste.

Another commonality among games in the genre (which I’m not aware of having a name yet… let me know if you’ve heard of one) is that lives are extremely cheap, and you blow through them. Lives are like HP in an RPG or ammo in an FPS. You go in EXPECTING to lose a LOT. If you interpret losing a life as “failure” then you will have a miserable time. It would be like feeling like you “fail” when you take damage in a turn based role playing game. Instead, if you see every death as another learning experience, you’ll have a much better time. Kind of like the way your armor rating increases when you take damage in Skyrim. So part of preparing for a TM run, you’ll be ‘leveling up’ your ‘life meter’ by collecting as many lives and Continue Coins as you can.

I can really appreciate this type of gameplay. However, I can foresee myself having a problem with it when the game in question is only available for a month at a time. I’m sure it is worse for people with far more hectic schedules than mine. Of course, I’m sure many people will just look up walkthrough videos, anyway, but some of us don’t like to play that way (at least most of the time).

I guess what I’m saying is that SAB is awesome and I wouldn’t mind seeing it at least added to the activity rotation, if not always available.

I love the potential but I really question the idea of such a mode with lives needed.
Josh made a reference to farming gold for potions in FF, but with all due respect, that game was hard but not unfair. It certainly doesn’t fit the genre you’re trying to recreate.

Blocking progress with lives is just silly. If you run out of live you need to grind more again, only to lose a whole lot of them while trying to get the feeling for the level. And that might end you up with none by the time you reached your previous progress.

Well there’s no point in selling the pixelated fur before shooting the 8-bit bear.
I’m quite interested to see how far you’ve taken the concept.

ThiBash.5634:

Yeah, it won’t be my cup of tea either. I’m glad some people enjoy it. What I don’t understand is why it has to come with unique rewards? Didn’t Josh state that it was all about the communication between the creator and the player? Why do they need another reward on top of that ‘special connection’?

Unique rewards? The rewards are the same, the colour is different. In a way, yes, that’s unique. And I think those that do solve it and manage to get that new colour can be proud to show off that colour difference.

Oh yes!
Beat world one to make others green of envy.
The idea of beating world two, like you, will have them scared yellow.
Trying to beat you in world three will have them red of embarrassment.
But most of all, watching you boast your world four weapons will have them purple of rage!

Josh Foreman.8250:

there are fantastic examples of media that purposefully subvert those structures and the fact that the rules are broken is part of what makes them great

Well Josh, when you go watch a David Lynch movie or buy a Bjork album you’re well aware they’re going to subvert structures and break rules. And yeah they’re great. That’s why you buy their art actually. When you buy Guild Wars 2 you know what you’re buying too. Want us to believe that now changing the rules makes it great? In my humble opinion they’re completely different cases.

Evans.6347:

Oh yes!
Beat world one to make others green of envy.
The idea of beating world two, like you, will have them scared yellow.
Trying to beat you in world three will have them red of embarrassment.
But most of all, watching you boast your world four weapons will have them purple of rage!

hmmm, is that how they came at the colours…

Moss.5371:

Josh Foreman.8250:

there are fantastic examples of media that purposefully subvert those structures and the fact that the rules are broken is part of what makes them great

Well Josh, when you go watch a David Lynch movie or buy a Bjork album you’re well aware they’re going to subvert structures and break rules. And yeah they’re great. That’s why you buy their art actually. When you buy Guild Wars 2 you know what you’re buying too. Want us to believe that now changing the rules makes it great? In my humble opinion they’re completely different cases.

They aren’t changing the rules of GW2, they are changing the rules of a mode of a minigame developed as a sideproject. It’s not like SAB normal mode (or the rest of GW2 for that matter) doesn’t conform to the standard rules of gaming design.

Yes, when you activate Tribulation Mode, you know exactly what you’re doing. And if they keep the angry cloud to start it, that we saw in the first incarnation of SAB, then that tells you enough. They are not changing the rules of GW2, but adding an alternate way to play it, for those that want to enjoy a sadistic but humorous challenge. Humor is a key ingredient in all this I feel. Not everyone will “get it”. When you look at a game like Cat Mario, you can either respond with “this is brilliant and funny” or “this is unfair and horribly designed”. Both are valid responses, but it is important to realize that the unfairness factor is a deliberate design decision. It’s part of the fun.

Wolfheart.1938:

They aren’t changing the rules of GW2, they are changing the rules of a mode of a minigame developed as a sideproject. It’s not like SAB normal mode (or the rest of GW2 for that matter) doesn’t conform to the standard rules of gaming design.

I know… the minigame itself is not breaking any rule or inventing anything. Apparently it’s a genre on itself. Incorporating it in a mmo is not subverting the rules of art, is buying a coke and finding it’s filled with… dont know, lemonade.

Incorporating the SAB itself is doing that, regardless of whether it has a tribulation mode or not. I don’t think anyone bought this game expecting to have a retro style jumping puzzle in it.

Not even Arenanet devs expected to release a retro style JP when they were working on GW2

Also Moss I’m not great at analogies but even I realize that yours is terribly flawed. You didn’t buy the SAB did you. You bought GW2 which is still there and still being developed with the rules of regular game design.

Or would you complain to the chef if you found out that the vegetarian restaurant you just went in also offers a few dishes with meat?

Besides, this whole discussion isn’t what this thread is about and is imo pointless. The SAB is here to stay and discussing whether or not it fits in GW2 is too late.

Why are you whining for literally nothing?

If you don’t like its ideas and concepts, stay the hell away from it and don’t play it.
So what if we didn’t buy GW2 expecting a retro JP or the “lemonade” thing (which totally doesn’t apply, like, AT ALL)? It’s a BONUS, it’s one of the things I love most about the game, the passion the SAB team has for it shows on the product.
It came after, it’s optional, you do it if you want, it’s super bloody fun for a huge amount of us.
I really don’t get the complaints.

You are right. The whole jumping puzzle thing is an attempt to integrate the platform genre into an mmo. GW1 or 2 are not typical mmos, I’ll give you that. But to me, of course this is just my opinion, it’s rather sad that the resources are being spent only in minigames and temporary content that doesn’t fit much with what a regular GW fan paid for or wants to see added to the game. Like liadri (1v1 fighting mortal combat thing genre), SAB (platforms), or the champion zerging (this may be a new genre on its own, which redefines the definition of group play to: “if someone is dead, link them the nearest WP and keep tagging stuff”).

It’s rather humorous how you invoke the ‘regular GW fan doesn’t want this’ card against the most popular additions so far.

You know how all the resources are being spent? Plz let’s stop beating the dead horse

In Tribulation Mode, the dead horse beats you!

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Yes, when you activate Tribulation Mode, you know exactly what you’re doing.

When the majority open up the achievements and see one for completing tribulation mode, they’re going to want to get those achievements, especially those leaderboard heroes that always complain.

Because of this, a lot of people are not going to know what this is, rage and complain about it, just like Liadri, but probably worse. There should probably be a warning in-game and the achievements should be hidden until activating this mode.

Well sorry, I didn’t mean to beat any horse, just give my opinion. Won’t happen again.

Healix.5819:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Yes, when you activate Tribulation Mode, you know exactly what you’re doing.

When the majority open up the achievements and see one for completing tribulation mode, they’re going to want to get those achievements, especially those leaderboard heroes that always complain.

Because of this, a lot of people are not going to know what this is, rage and complain about it, just like Liadri, but probably worse. There should probably be a warning in-game and the achievements should be hidden until activating this mode.

Those achievements you just mentioned are some of few achievements who actually deserve to be called “achievements”. Maybe there should be more of those, so people get used to “achieve” something again.

Healix.5819:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Yes, when you activate Tribulation Mode, you know exactly what you’re doing.

When the majority open up the achievements and see one for completing tribulation mode, they’re going to want to get those achievements, especially those leaderboard heroes that always complain.

Because of this, a lot of people are not going to know what this is, rage and complain about it, just like Liadri, but probably worse. There should probably be a warning in-game and the achievements should be hidden until activating this mode.

I do hope they make a separate meta for that one. Like they did for the Gauntlet. I could completely finish one meta and completely ignore the other. I personally prefer a completely empty meta over a half filled one :P

Moss, you’re entitled to your opinion. Nobody is forcing you to like this very niche part of the game. However, many people do enjoy it, which was obvious from the immense success of SAB’s first edition, so you can’t claim to be in the majority on this.

Moss.5371:

Well sorry, I didn’t mean to beat any horse, just give my opinion. Won’t happen again.

Sorry if I seemed too aggressive, you are free to give your opinion of course. It’s just that I don’t think this is the thread for it =)

Now, for that Will Wright video…

Josh Foreman.8250:

It’s an exploration of the furthest reaches of the aesthetic form of negative feedback loop.

I do not agree on negative feedback loops being the product here.
Let’s talk about the elephant in the room here, which is Super Meatboy.

I maintain, that in a game such as Super Meatboy, the positive feedback loop is not primarily tied to completion of a level but to execution of moves while playing. Death as an obstacle has been removed, since the player is instantly reset with infinite lives; for the most part. Progress is not just tied to playing more levels, but also to unlocking new characters and interactions.

Super Meatboy is therefore a series of tiny successes which does not get ruined by occasional death. Or dying 200 times in one level even. The positive loop of having mastered half the level weighs more than the fast occurring slip ups and resets. It is not a game about exploring negative feedback loops, it is a game about the exact opposite. Also compare: Super Hexagon.

The hardmode of Super Adventure Box is not something to be judged by the number of deaths you die. Just making a player die 500 times is not going to make the game the same thing as ‘I want to be the guy’. SAB cannot be judged by how hard it slams your face into the ground, but in which frequency it allows you to do it. Imo that is the reason for Meatboy being more mainstream than Amiga games of the 80ies.

The high speed of resets allows the player to push his ability to learn the level and execute the moves correctly. You push your learning curve to the limit. In my opinion, that is the product, that is a positive feedback loop. Build on 1000 corpses, I give you that.

Look at how this old version of the same idea limits your learning speed and idles too much on repetition of learned and going to previous areas too often.
http://rickdangerousflash.free.fr/

Then play some Super Meatboy and see how it removes all the limits. Hedging that one positive feedbackloop Rick Dangerous got in all the right ways.

Josh Foreman.8250:

Like before, I’ll throw out the caveat that I’m not claiming that the SAB team is that master craftsman pushing the medium forward in dramatic brilliant ways. Only that we are THINKING about the design choices we make, we recognize when we are breaking rules, and we have a reason for doing so. Because SAB exists within the ecosystem of Guild Wars 2 it’s not going to be an exact replica of IWTBTG. We’re a hybrid, and that brings lots of interesting challenges with it. I’m sure we’ll learn a lot from this first TM release, and incorporate those lessons into the next round.

You might rethink your choices, when real competition will show up next year and those RPG type of GW2 fans, lured here by some manifesto, will leave for other games with more fantasy and less SAB. Hybrids tend to have the flaw to become ‘neither – nor’ very fast and without prior announcements. Hybrids are often done by people who don’t really know how to do either really well. But perhaps I am only prattling as well

Healix.5819:

When the majority open up the achievements and see one for completing tribulation mode, they’re going to want to get those achievements, especially those leaderboard heroes that always complain.

Because of this, a lot of people are not going to know what this is, rage and complain about it, just like Liadri, but probably worse. There should probably be a warning in-game and the achievements should be hidden until activating this mode.

Oh I understand your point. Many of us are probably achievement completionists, and may feel frustrated that some achievements seem out of reach. But Tribulation Mode is literally activated with an angry looking cloud (that’s assuming they kept the angry cloud back from the initial release). That angry cloud is a very clear communication that this is not just hard mode. You will be angry, you will be frustrated and agitated…. and hopefully you’re one of the few who can also appreciate the humor in it.

By the way, I don’t think Super Meatboy is a good comparison. Super Meatboy is just a really hard platformer that clearly shows you whats ahead, with the ability to quickly retry. But it doesn’t have that humorous feeling of unfairness, where you are trying to guess the crazy stuff the sadistic developer will do next. Cat Mario and IWBTG have a sort of deranged twist to it. It’s like they took some of the unfair challenges in classic NES platformers, and made it even more unfair, just to give the players this awesome sense of accomplishment for surviving it. Some of us who grew up in that 8-bit era, can understand the sadistic fun factor that Josh and his team are going for with Tribulation Mode.

This reminds me of the deadly powerups that the NES game Snake Rattle and Roll would often drop right near places where you had to jump. Like powerups that reverse your controls, so that the moment you land, you instantly move backwards off the side of the cliff. Is it unfair? Yes. Is it funny? Oh yes! Then also add metal arms that unexpectedly come out of the wall, and push you off the side.

Or giant razor blades and falling anvils that suddenly appear with no warning. Fake extra lives that turn out to be deadly bombs, and speed boosts just before a tricky jump, so you overshoot it and kill yourself.

It’s like one giant obstacle run, where the devs just throw everything at you they could think of. And it’s epic.

Josh. Please let there be giant falling anvils!

Grileenor.1497:

Josh Foreman.8250:

Like before, I’ll throw out the caveat that I’m not claiming that the SAB team is that master craftsman pushing the medium forward in dramatic brilliant ways. Only that we are THINKING about the design choices we make, we recognize when we are breaking rules, and we have a reason for doing so. Because SAB exists within the ecosystem of Guild Wars 2 it’s not going to be an exact replica of IWTBTG. We’re a hybrid, and that brings lots of interesting challenges with it. I’m sure we’ll learn a lot from this first TM release, and incorporate those lessons into the next round.

You might rethink your choices, when real competition will show up next year and those RPG type of GW2 fans, lured here by some manifesto, will leave for other games with more fantasy and less SAB. Hybrids tend to have the flaw to become ‘neither – nor’ very fast and without prior announcements. Hybrids are often done by people who don’t really know how to do either really well. But perhaps I am only prattling as well

We can only hope that you will leave with them and go make unfounded complaints elsewhere. We can only hope.

Obs: I’m not discussing the subject because there’s no point, you simply won’t stop being bothered by this type of content anyway.

@Mad Queen Malafide – Dang. Absolutely amazing. I’m really hoping for similar things on TM.

Josh Foreman.8250:

Like before, I’ll throw out the caveat that I’m not claiming that the SAB team is that master craftsman pushing the medium forward in dramatic brilliant ways. Only that we are THINKING about the design choices we make, we recognize when we are breaking rules, and we have a reason for doing so. Because SAB exists within the ecosystem of Guild Wars 2 it’s not going to be an exact replica of IWTBTG. We’re a hybrid, and that brings lots of interesting challenges with it. I’m sure we’ll learn a lot from this first TM release, and incorporate those lessons into the next round.

That’s A LOT of explanatory information to not be comparing yourself to it.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Oh I understand your point. Many of us are probably achievement completionists, and may feel frustrated that some achievements seem out of reach. But Tribulation Mode is literally activated with an angry looking cloud (that’s assuming they kept the angry cloud back from the initial release). That angry cloud is a very clear communication that this is not just hard mode. You will be angry, you will be frustrated and agitated…. and hopefully you’re one of the few who can also appreciate the humor in it.

By the way, I don’t think Super Meatboy is a good comparison. Super Meatboy is just a really hard platformer that clearly shows you whats ahead, with the ability to quickly retry. But it doesn’t have that humorous feeling of unfairness, where you are trying to guess the crazy stuff the sadistic developer will do next. Cat Mario and IWBTG have a sort of deranged twist to it. It’s like they took some of the unfair challenges in classic NES platformers, and made it even more unfair, just to give the players this awesome sense of accomplishment for surviving it. Some of us who grew up in that 8-bit era, can understand the sadistic fun factor that Josh and his team are going for with Tribulation Mode.

This reminds me of the deadly powerups that the NES game Snake Rattle and Roll would often drop right near places where you had to jump. Like powerups that reverse your controls, so that the moment you land, you instantly move backwards off the side of the cliff. Is it unfair? Yes. Is it funny? Oh yes! Then also add metal arms that unexpectedly come out of the wall, and push you off the side.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZd1Almdwug#t=7m05s

Or giant razor blades and falling anvils that suddenly appear with no warning. Fake extra lives that turn out to be deadly bombs, and speed boosts just before a tricky jump, so you overshoot it and kill yourself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZd1Almdwug#t=4m50s

It’s like one giant obstacle run, where the devs just throw everything at you they could think of. And it’s epic.

Josh. Please let there be giant falling anvils!

As a reply to this and the one before, all of the well made masochism simulators have a few important things that SAB (and Rytlock Rampage), a lot of encounters that just get cheezed and Liadri dont have, a clear sense of player control and knowledge.
With that i mean stuff like the playing being able to rotate the camera to see where they have to jump (kinda big issue with the first sabs waterfall bonus thing and the leaf section of the people going for all the baubles, massive issue with lia), enemies (and their attacks) not having hitboxes that dont make sense (monkeys for example didnt hit me half the time despite their bat going directly trough my model and Lias aoes not only dont show right because of the ground, but are also about 5% bigger than the aoe indicators if you see them, same with laser beams in CoE, same with shockwave attacks); ok this one was a issue in mario and battletoads because it were pixels to a little square could be the difference between kicking a koopa or picking it up or a attack not hitting and most importantly a good enough reaction time frame to learn what encounters do, when traps spring up and other such stuff without instagibbing the person (Liadris shadowfall and gravity orbs would in theory be perfect for that well done but since its riddled with ui fighting the player, instead the loved mad kings clock tower is also a awesome example).

Personally i loved the old Mario, DK, Sneaky Snakes and even Battletoads, but after stuff like Touhou, Mega man and the Metroid games, they are kinda bad in terms of mechanics and control the player actually has, even if 99% of the game doesnt any glaring problems; it kinda has the one bad apple can ruin the bunch effect of the people not remembering the cool race parts, but just that one boss, or that one part of the water level where fish randomly pop up just 3 pixels under you and you have to repeat it for 3 days to get lucky enough instead of the weeks of platforming fun.

P.S. SRNR a ton of nes games were arcade ports or designed by the same people that did games for the original arcades, noone should ever return to that kitten because it was fake difficulty designed to eat time and money, not for fun; rare learned that and then pushed out probably two of the best games ever made banjo kazooie (and no it doesnt have a third game, no race cars and bad references dont exist in bajos world) and the James bond FPS that my friends always teased me with since i suck at fps and forgot the name

Grileenor.1497:

Josh Foreman.8250:

Like before, I’ll throw out the caveat that I’m not claiming that the SAB team is that master craftsman pushing the medium forward in dramatic brilliant ways. Only that we are THINKING about the design choices we make, we recognize when we are breaking rules, and we have a reason for doing so. Because SAB exists within the ecosystem of Guild Wars 2 it’s not going to be an exact replica of IWTBTG. We’re a hybrid, and that brings lots of interesting challenges with it. I’m sure we’ll learn a lot from this first TM release, and incorporate those lessons into the next round.

You might rethink your choices, when real competition will show up next year and those RPG type of GW2 fans, lured here by some manifesto, will leave for other games with more fantasy and less SAB. Hybrids tend to have the flaw to become ‘neither – nor’ very fast and without prior announcements. Hybrids are often done by people who don’t really know how to do either really well. But perhaps I am only prattling as well

SAB isn’t against the manifesto. Actually, it fits perfectly in it: it’s an activity, it’s about skill (not gear) and there’s no grind (only for cosmetic items)

I’m very excited about this new update. Foreman didn’t dissapoint me before (Clock Tower, SAB 1st world) and TM seems pretty sadist for me

I’ve had my newly created “SAB Champion” toon parked outside SAB for days now. Every update I’ve been anxiously awaiting more SAB content, and now that it’s announced I can hardly wait! My friends and I flew through the content last time, and are looking forward to tribulation mode to give us something to work for. SAB was such a hit last time, and for it to be created by only a small team is truly an amazing feat! It’s the content like this that keeps my friends and I talking about fun memories from GW2 for a long time. Keep doing what you’re doing, and let the haters hate! (:

Pedra.4381:

Josh Foreman.8250:

Like before, I’ll throw out the caveat that I’m not claiming that the SAB team is that master craftsman pushing the medium forward in dramatic brilliant ways. Only that we are THINKING about the design choices we make, we recognize when we are breaking rules, and we have a reason for doing so. Because SAB exists within the ecosystem of Guild Wars 2 it’s not going to be an exact replica of IWTBTG. We’re a hybrid, and that brings lots of interesting challenges with it. I’m sure we’ll learn a lot from this first TM release, and incorporate those lessons into the next round.

That’s A LOT of explanatory information to not be comparing yourself to it.

They didn’t compare themselves to it.

What they said is “yes, we know what normally should be done, we thought about it and chose to do it this way as an extra mode”. As in, in addition to the normal and the “Infantile Mode” which had its place also (notably “Collect all the Baubles everywhere”.)

I haven’t seen it, I haven’t played it, and I don’t play games like IWTBTG. I do, however, play the original X-Com and TFTD so I know about “unfair and hard” in a sense and for certain constructions which use that format “I can dig it”.

Wolfheart.1938:

Moss.5371:

Josh Foreman.8250:

there are fantastic examples of media that purposefully subvert those structures and the fact that the rules are broken is part of what makes them great

Well Josh, when you go watch a David Lynch movie or buy a Bjork album you’re well aware they’re going to subvert structures and break rules. And yeah they’re great. That’s why you buy their art actually. When you buy Guild Wars 2 you know what you’re buying too. Want us to believe that now changing the rules makes it great? In my humble opinion they’re completely different cases.

They aren’t changing the rules of GW2, they are changing the rules of a mode of a minigame developed as a sideproject. It’s not like SAB normal mode (or the rest of GW2 for that matter) doesn’t conform to the standard rules of gaming design.

I don’t think that monthly content that only lasts for either two or four weeks before being removed is a standard rule of gaming design. Thankfully. But anyway…

Cassius.4831:

Grileenor.1497:

Josh Foreman.8250:

Like before, I’ll throw out the caveat that I’m not claiming that the SAB team is that master craftsman pushing the medium forward in dramatic brilliant ways. Only that we are THINKING about the design choices we make, we recognize when we are breaking rules, and we have a reason for doing so. Because SAB exists within the ecosystem of Guild Wars 2 it’s not going to be an exact replica of IWTBTG. We’re a hybrid, and that brings lots of interesting challenges with it. I’m sure we’ll learn a lot from this first TM release, and incorporate those lessons into the next round.

You might rethink your choices, when real competition will show up next year and those RPG type of GW2 fans, lured here by some manifesto, will leave for other games with more fantasy and less SAB. Hybrids tend to have the flaw to become ‘neither – nor’ very fast and without prior announcements. Hybrids are often done by people who don’t really know how to do either really well. But perhaps I am only prattling as well

SAB isn’t against the manifesto. Actually, it fits perfectly in it: it’s an activity, it’s about skill (not gear) and there’s no grind (only for cosmetic items)

I’m very excited about this new update. Foreman didn’t dissapoint me before (Clock Tower, SAB 1st world) and TM seems pretty sadist for me

Hey, you know what else they said? I don’t remember if this was technically in the “manifesto,” but they said because this game has no subscription, it wouldn’t matter if people wanted to stop playing for a a few months or something, and then come back. Well, so much for that, unless missing out on content “doesn’t matter.” If that doesn’t “matter,” though, then what exactly in the game would? If anything, this game is more punishing to people who stop playing for a while than most MMOs (that I have played), not less.

Josh Foreman.8250:

Like before, I’ll throw out the caveat that I’m not claiming that the SAB team is that master craftsman pushing the medium forward in dramatic brilliant ways. Only that we are THINKING about the design choices we make, we recognize when we are breaking rules, and we have a reason for doing so. Because SAB exists within the ecosystem of Guild Wars 2 it’s not going to be an exact replica of IWTBTG. We’re a hybrid, and that brings lots of interesting challenges with it. I’m sure we’ll learn a lot from this first TM release, and incorporate those lessons into the next round.

Well, that’s enough prattling at 2:30 am! Good night/morning!

I have nothing but upmost respect for you and you seem to be very in touch with a lot of development concepts which is nice.

Very very happy to see some more challenge gated content, what I would like to see some more of is challenge gated content that has a grind or chance option along side of it.
This way it won’t lock out the other players entirely but give those of us who like playing the game and challenging ourselves some fun content.

Wrong person to say this to I know, but personally I feel that is how precursor’s need to be handled.

I will just run down my idea here before eventually adding it to my rather long list of things that I will end up creating a rough design document for one day.

Add in “achievement” quests for precursors (selectable like the current weapon and armour skins)… This then unlocks an item that takes you to a specific precursor challenge arena (like the queens gauntlet), you will then have to go through a series of queens gauntlet like challenges themed to the precursor/legendary… maybe 3 rounds with a finale of liadri difficulty before earning the precursor at the end if you get through.
And from now on that quest is unlocked for you to unlock an account bound precursor of that type whenever you beat that challenge (shouldn’t be hard to make it non mystic forge able)

This way it is time gated to certain AP levels (I would go with every 3k points personally), difficulty gated AND people get to use the weapon while earning the rest of the materials needed for the precursor. Heck even put a Karma cost in getting into the arena to try out for the precursor, that way people can’t just buy their way in and there is a limited number of retries.

I would also say adding a different skin or minor effects to precursors would be nice, give people that feel that they are working towards something like was originally said when the devs first started talking about legendary weapons.
Oh and make legendary weapons account bound on equip. it costs too kitten much to make them and frankly I would love to make multiple sets but I just don’t have the energy if I can’t enjoy it on an alt and then bring it back to my main when I am not sick of playing the main anymore.

But yeah
Precursor’s could have skill based challenges unlocked every 3k points and entry costs of 42k karma or maybe 10 laurels (With the players choice between them)
3 consecutive themed fights. And a single non forgeable precursor rewarded upon successful completion.

It would take time to develop the fights, but I believe it is very do-able and probably the best counterpart to the current system.

I was also thinking having something like an “obsidian titan” or something of the like would be VERY cool to have an extremely challenging group fight that rewards obsidian shards (not that they are hard to come by AT ALL, but it is just nice to have a challenge or grind option in games and I think this plays into gw2’s core philosophy better)

I really think you guys are getting better at your content releases and encounters in general, great job and I look forward to seeing the future, still gotta say… Aside from SAB itself nothing released this year even comes close to the three patches last year.

Without the bugs LostShores would have been fantastic (and it was until the lag hit in that final event an hour in, by george that was the best group content I had ever played in an mmo and there was more than enough plot in that update and leadup)

It is rather amusing really, the first three updates all felt more like a living world and living story than ANYTHING that has come since.