Guild Wars 2

So after going through the dungeon and finding out about what the contracts are, that we will be helping load away from Canach’s plan according to the acheivement tab, are we endorsing slavery?

From F&F we had refugees who were part of a drastic tragedy, given an opportunity for a place to live, food, since their homes were destroyed and Hoelbrak and Black Citadel filled to capacity, forcing men, women, and children to seek help. The consortium makes those who want help sign a contract, that forces them to live on an island filled with its own dangers, forced to work, no protection, and no choice to be able to freely leave. The one guy, Canach, who is trying to free them, albeit not entirely the correct way to do so, is being touted as the villain for his motives. Apparently we will not only help in his arrest, but help to thwart his plans to further advance the consortium’s plans in further trying to make it impossible for Refugees to return to their homeland, continuing to keep them in danger, forcing them to work for the consortium, all in all what I can think of being termed as anything else but Slavery.

wow just wow, didn’t know companies could be so bold nowadays and it be overlooked

We are slavers by helping the consortium.

They were FORCED to sign a contract during an emergency. And now they are forbidden to leave a labor contract by force.

That’s what happened in Brazil during italian imigrancy. Italians came to work at the harvest and signed a contract where they would get their trip and housing/food paid, only having to work to pay their debts.

Turned out they were turned into white slaves. They couldnt leave their master farm and they were only allowed to by from their master market, making their debt unpayable.

Right now, that’s happening to all those poor charrs in Southsun Island.
And you are part of it by “queeling” the “instigators”.

Yeah, I’m thinking this plot thread is intentional to make us part of the bad guys. I’m hoping that this working for the consortium think is eventually going to end in some sort of turnaround, but at the moment the bit of amoral stuff we’re participating in is a little interesting.

I don’t understand what the hell we’re doing in Southsun now. I rather work on rebuilding Cragstead and random charr settlements that were destroyed in F&F instead of helping keep refugees trapped in this island. There’s even an achievement to keeping those terrible contracts safe.

I rather have an achievement where you help refugees escape to The Grove or Sparkfly Fen. Who needs evil dragons when you have the Consortium?

They weren’t forced to do anything.

Tawa.3180:

I don’t understand what the hell we’re doing in Southsun now. I rather work on rebuilding Cragstead and random charr settlements that were destroyed in F&F instead of helping keep refugees trapped in this island. There’s even an achievement to keeping those terrible contracts safe.

I rather have an achievement where you help refugees escape to The Grove or Sparkfly Fen. Who needs evil dragons when you have the Consortium?

Arenanet said in that developer interview video that this whole living story is connected by plot threads from each update. I’ll bet you we’re going to start delving into some conspiracy stuff with the consortium next. I want to see us start to side with the refugees after seeing what monsters we’ve become in this update. That’d be cool!

I’m glad that more people think like me. I’ve been saying that for quite a while aroud this forum.
The Consortium disgusts me. I wish I could side with Canach.

I hope so, but with all the achievements revealed on the first day it kind of spoiled most of the story.

Zahara.3842:

wow just wow, didn’t know companies could be so bold nowadays and it be overlooked

You do know this is a game right?

What’s your next post? GW2 endorses underage drinking due to the alcohol content in the game. Or GW2 endorses animal cruelty due to ambient killer achievements? Or GW2 endorses killing as a whole? Good grief…

TinkTinkPOOF.9201:

Zahara.3842:

wow just wow, didn’t know companies could be so bold nowadays and it be overlooked

You do know this is a game right?

So if a game was made about the events of the Holocaust where you play as a kitten, because it is a game, that doesn’t mean anything?

Zahara.3842:

So if a game was made about the events of the Holocaust where you play as a kitten, because it is a game, that doesn’t mean anything?

The Holocaust was a real and tragic event. This is a game based on fictional stories, characters, creatures, places, items and so forth. Seriously, if you are going to go that far then you must never attack mobs because that condones killing. I’m sure you never killed an ambient either…

So you’re okay with the massacre of basically every living thing that can be attacked… but not slavery… ooookay.

Actually it is called indentured servitude. Not quite slavery as they entered the contract willingly, though almost as bad as they tricked them into it. But remember, that is part of why they are the bad guys.

Zahara.3842:

TinkTinkPOOF.9201:

Zahara.3842:

wow just wow, didn’t know companies could be so bold nowadays and it be overlooked

You do know this is a game right?

So if a game was made about the events of the Holocaust where you play as a kitten, because it is a game, that doesn’t mean anything?

Assuming I know what you were trying to say and the game being based in the holocaust, then it would make sense to play a kitten.

Still not sure if trolling…

In storytelling, no plot element is sacrosanct. How are you to address the outcomes of of real grey-area problems without having to face consequences? Are the Consortium Indentures (difference between a contract and a chain) preying on the unfortunate? Sure. Is Cannach a “freedom fighter”? Maybe. He certainly fits the mold of using violence for supposed higher motives. You are given a rock and a hard place and told to choose a side. The game railroads you into siding against the guy who is using terrorism as a tool. But that puts you in the good graces of the oppressors. Food for thought.

As far as the Holocaust goes, well, there are plenty of treatments in fiction over the different points of view addressing equally difficult choices and their effects on people. The only reason there aren’t games about it is probably no studio would open themselves up to the kind of backlash for dealing with such touchy subjects. Same reason you don’t see games putting you as the Roman Soldier in Judea in 33AD.

But but .. the instigators have chests!

Villians often hide their atrocious deeds behind a veil of ‘saving the world’ from something or other. Touting the ‘ends justify the means’. Sometimes the ‘cure’ is worse than the disease.

It’s a story. We may not have seen the end of it, as it’s a Living Story.

Did any of you actually read the patch notes:

Wait for the story to develop further…

FateOmega.9601:

But but .. the instigators have chests!

lol

We are not actually working for the consortium. We are working with the lionguard who to enforce the law. Until the LA leaders deem the consortium actions illegal, the lionguard are obligated to protect them and keep the peace.

If you are opposed to the slavery/ indentured servitude thing you can choose not to help out.

GoddessHrist.8472:

Did any of you actually read the patch notes:

Show Spoiler

hide spoiler

Players must work together to protect the settlements and the innocents within from the crazed horde’s sustained assault, ultimately allowing Inspector Kiel to destroy the records and free the settlers from their unfair commitments without harming any of the island’s residents.

Wait for the story to develop further…

I don’t think that the intentions of ONE NPC will make up for everything we have been doing and letting happen to the settlers lately. Also, after what she said to Canach, I’m pretty sure that she just knows that he is right and wants to be the hero herself. Beautiful. She gets to capture Canach AND help the settlers? Huzza, the heroism has been doubled! So convenient.

This was a topic that was conversed between me and a friend, and I was looking for other’s input towards the content. Not meant as some “holier than thou” post about what we do in games.

In taking in the content and seeing the back story of the characters involved from Canach, Kiel, the refugees, it just seemed forced to me as into who you were able to side with, or the course of action to take as far as, “Okay i just helped these refugees, now I must keep them in line on this island” IMO there doesn’t seem to be another side to the consortium in-game, other than what we view. It makes it seem as though “okay go along with them”

Gabby.3205:

I don’t think that the intentions of ONE NPC will make up for everything we have been doing and letting happen to the settlers lately. Also, after what she said to Canach, I’m pretty sure that she just knows that he is right and wants to be the hero herself. Beautiful. She gets to capture Canach AND help the settlers? Huzza, the heroism has been doubled! So convenient.

I hate Kiel… -.-

I have the same ideas as Zahara.3842 about what is going on here. Its strange we are told to fight the same people we were sympathizing with not too long ago. Did I not return lost belongings to some of them, heal them when they were wounded on the road, etc.
Odd also that the alternative to not helping the suspicious Consortium exploit refugees is not participating in the living story.

The problem is that there is no choice. You cannot choose with whom you want to side.
It’s a good thing when the plot of a game forces you to choose between two morally questionable options, because it shows that many decisions are not black or white, but grey. But in GW2 there are no options. You aren’t asked which side you want to support, either you support the Consortium (by proxy through the Lionguard) or you don’t take part in the plot.
I think the creators of this plot wanted to have a moraly ambiguous situation in which you can decide for yourself who is right. But that is useless as long as your decision is pointless and you’re forced to be on one side. So it’s a good plot but for the wrong game.

Nothing new tho, I still feel a little uncomfortable as a chilean every time I go to tkittenon vanguard stronghold and see the heart where I have to, quote: “Kick down suspicious doors to find possible separatist hideouts”.

Guess I can always finish that one by repressing the inhabitants right to express themselves freely on the street’s walls as well.

Well we have pretty much proven our mercenary nature :p

As characters we’re on the side of the laws, even if they may not be above board, it’s an interesting situation really, terrorism vs indentured servitude.

I do very much enjoy the living stories

Zahara.3842:

This was a topic that was conversed between me and a friend, and I was looking for other’s input towards the content. Not meant as some “holier than thou” post about what we do in games.

In taking in the content and seeing the back story of the characters involved from Canach, Kiel, the refugees, it just seemed forced to me as into who you were able to side with, or the course of action to take as far as, “Okay i just helped these refugees, now I must keep them in line on this island” IMO there doesn’t seem to be another side to the consortium in-game, other than what we view. It makes it seem as though “okay go along with them”

Because in life, choices are very seldom black and white, and you will almost never agree fully with one side or the other. In many games it’s clear cut, you either want to be good or be bad, but some times the person just had a kittenty set of choices and is doing best with what they have.

Ok. First off it’s a game with stories as has already been stated.

The Consortium are your atypical businessmen. They look at the bottom line not the lives that are being affected by this.

Many people these days have a negative picture of the world and so they reflect this through stories.

These stories have been reviewed and approved by Anet before they started making the programing sometime ago.

Can we change it now? No

Can we suggest they not be so “dark” with the stories? Yes?

Will it make a difference? Got me I don’t work for Anet.

Dark stories are good

I understand it completely, Cristobal. When I kill a separatist, I feel like I’m saying “NO! You can’t voice your political opinion!”. I’m not saying that they are doing it right, but I don’t think they should be killed either.
What I could see is that the morality in Guild Wars 2 is a little dubious. I mean, no one looks twice at the valiant that just killed a nightmare courtier. They are evil. They all must die, even if they just surrender and told you everything they knew thinking that you would spare their lives.
And hey, that’s a good thing! I mean, it’s not all black and white, right? “Good” characters sometimes can do terrible things, and “bad” characters can be honorable (these are not just assumptions, that’s what is in the Sylvari’s personal story).

Gabby.3205:

I understand it completely, Cristobal. When I kill a separatist, I feel like I’m saying “NO! You can’t voice your political opinion!”. I’m not saying that they are doing it right, but I don’t think they should be killed either.
What I could see is that the morality in Guild Wars 2 is a little dubious. I mean, no one looks twice at the valiant that just killed a nightmare courtier. They are evil. They all must die, even if they just surrender and told you everything they knew thinking that you would spare their lives.
And hey, that’s a good thing! I mean, it’s not all black and white, right? “Good” characters sometimes can do terrible things, and “bad” characters can be honorable (these are not just assumptions, that’s what is in the Sylvari’s personal story).

I think everything in GW2 is supposed to be black and white. I.e. the separatists are just as bad as the Nightmare Court. Like the Inquest, the separatists might have had good intentions, but they’re actions crossed a line and landed them squarely in “they’re the bad guys, kill ’em” territory. Just like all player characters are good. It’s a little hokey, but that’s the way it’s intended to be.

If that’s how it is supposed to be, they are failing miserably.
The Sons of Svanir are tolerated by the other norns (unless they attack them, of course), Caithe did something horrible (IMO), Zojja psychologically tortures Eir, there is a nightmare courtier that proves to the player that there can be honor in the Nightmare Court, it is ok to kill a sentient race (skritt) and to destroy their home just because they stole your logging tools… I could go on for quite a while xD

Gabby.3205:

I don’t think that the intentions of ONE NPC will make up for everything we have been doing and letting happen to the settlers lately. Also, after what she said to Canach, I’m pretty sure that she just knows that he is right and wants to be the hero herself. Beautiful. She gets to capture Canach AND help the settlers? Huzza, the heroism has been doubled! So convenient.

What’s been happening to the settlers is their own fault. They signed themselves over without reading the fine print, so they have no one to blame but themselves.

As far as Kiel goes, she knows that the whole thing stinks. If you hang around her and watch her interactions, you’d pick up on that. However, first and foremost, she is a lawkeeper. She’s dutybound to make sure the settlers fulfill their contracts (for now, at least) and bring in Canach despite the whole situation being morally repugnant.

It must be horrible to live in a place where contractual obligations are more important than basic “human” rights (alright, we are talking about Norns and Charrs, but you know what I mean). I wonder if Tyria has any law against this kind of abuse. I guess not.
That’s what happens when you put money over morality, I guess.

Gabby.3205:

I understand it completely, Cristobal. When I kill a separatist, I feel like I’m saying “NO! You can’t voice your political opinion!”. I’m not saying that they are doing it right, but I don’t think they should be killed either.
What I could see is that the morality in Guild Wars 2 is a little dubious. I mean, no one looks twice at the valiant that just killed a nightmare courtier. They are evil. They all must die, even if they just surrender and told you everything they knew thinking that you would spare their lives.
And hey, that’s a good thing! I mean, it’s not all black and white, right? “Good” characters sometimes can do terrible things, and “bad” characters can be honorable (these are not just assumptions, that’s what is in the Sylvari’s personal story).

I agree, realistic grey morality is pretty well done in the game lore and story.

By any humanist standard is pretty abyss black morality really, as you commit genocide against sentient species all the time for all kinds of bullkitten reasons and nobody even cares. Again pretty realistic.

What annoys me is how the game forces the player to do that stuff as well, instead of giving us the choice to at least politely decline.

Cristobal.8640:

Nothing new tho, I still feel a little uncomfortable as a chilean every time I go to tkittenon vanguard stronghold and see the heart where I have to, quote: “Kick down suspicious doors to find possible separatist hideouts”.

Guess I can always finish that one by repressing the inhabitants right to express themselves freely on the street’s walls as well.

Or talk to the drunken ones wandering down the street, if you really want to spare the doors.

I think perception/expectation is the root here. Western rpg gamers tend to think every rpg should be about them-to stroke their kitten, tell them how awesome they are and how important they are to this virtual world-that their every action has monumental significance; afterall one ‘criticism’ of gw2 story mode was it didn’t make you feel like you single handedly killed an elder dragon and brought about 1000years of peace (the story mode is far from good-hell barely passable imo, but not because it didn’t worship me). If you look at it from that perspective-‘me me me me me’ then I can see how it can be frustrating and those conclusions be made.

However, what if you look at it as a story rather than a way for you to superimpose yourself unto the game world? In this case it’s not about you-these are events that are unfolding in Tyria, and you’re simply observing them from a particular frame of reference (Lionguard in this case). In such an instance the story can be crafted to have the effect of you wondering ‘huh…was X such a bad guy really?’ rather than have you say ‘they forced me to kill X…LAAAAAME’. If you watched the ‘Meet the Consortium’ video I believe you’ll come to the conclusion that this is the way they’re designing the experience (https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/video-meet-the-consortium/ )-that we are observers, not the stars of the show whose every action has far reaching consequences. I think the best way to summerize is: try thinking of it as an interactive story, rather than a branching story and you might reconsider the notion that Anet is forcing you to endorse slavery (also, as someone mentioned, this isn’t slavery).

Additionally, if this was a novel, the mental processes you went through after learning more about the story to come to the conclusion ‘wait…am I supporting slavery here?’ would be the character’s thoughts in italics. However, since you are the character (notice, I didn’t say ‘main’) and you went through the ‘ordeal’, you actually experienced those mental processes rather than simply reading what the character is thinking, because, again, you are the character.

Btw Krosslite I believe you used the term ‘atypical’ in correctly, as your following sentence referring to them (the Consortium) describes them as having the same perceived mindset of businessmen-not having notions contrary to the ‘norm’.

Eh, i don’t know about you but i only knocked on the door. The separatist attacked first. I am just defending myself.

Zahara.3842:

So after going through the dungeon and finding out about what the contracts are, that we will be helping load away from Canach’s plan according to the acheivement tab, are we endorsing slavery?

From F&F we had refugees who were part of a drastic tragedy, given an opportunity for a place to live, food, since their homes were destroyed and Hoelbrak and Black Citadel filled to capacity, forcing men, women, and children to seek help. The consortium makes those who want help sign a contract, that forces them to live on an island filled with its own dangers, forced to work, no protection, and no choice to be able to freely leave. The one guy, Canach, who is trying to free them, albeit not entirely the correct way to do so, is being touted as the villain for his motives. Apparently we will not only help in his arrest, but help to thwart his plans to further advance the consortium’s plans in further trying to make it impossible for Refugees to return to their homeland, continuing to keep them in danger, forcing them to work for the consortium, all in all what I can think of being termed as anything else but Slavery.

wow just wow, didn’t know companies could be so bold nowadays and it be overlooked

Good joke post, would read again +1

I would put money on this being the motivation for a twist where we end up liberating the island somehow.

Zahara.3842:

TinkTinkPOOF.9201:

Zahara.3842:

wow just wow, didn’t know companies could be so bold nowadays and it be overlooked

You do know this is a game right?

So if a game was made about the events of the Holocaust where you play as a kitten, because it is a game, that doesn’t mean anything?

Play Brenda Romero’s “Train”. It is also one of the most impactful educational tools I have ever seen. No I will not explain it, you have to play it to see what I mean.

You saw what was going on, you saw what it meant: the demonizing of a hero, but you lept to the wrong conclusion. You stopped one station too early, this isn’t “ANet endorsing slavery”, it’s “ANet is trying to show you that even the villains are not always the bad guy”

Lets say you work in law enforcement. One day there a labor riot right in your neighbourhood over justified poor wages/ working conditions. Those people are looting and destroying property. What would you do? Stop them or join them?

To quote from the patch notes:

Help Inspector Kiel track down Canach, the villain behind the increased animal aggression and the focused attacks on Consortium settlements. Canach’s intent is to destroy the settler contracts (and punish Subdirector Blingg for his vendetta against Canach).
Players must work together to protect the settlements and the innocents within from the crazed horde’s sustained assault, ultimately allowing Inspector Kiel to destroy the records and free the settlers from their unfair commitments without harming any of the island’s residents. This sets the stage for the upcoming Dragon Bash festival to happen without settler unrest spoiling the festivities.

From this, I’d say it sounds like you get to help the good guys save the day after all.

If someone comes knocking down your door because it looks, quote: “Suspicious” what would you do? No, you attacked first :P

FateOmega.9601:

But but .. the instigators have chests!

That’s honestly where I draw the line.

“Adventurer, we need you to slay a great evil…”

“This guy doesn’t look Evil. Maybe a little upset, but not, you know, evil evil”

“He’s rich”

“IN THE NAME OF JUSTICE I STRIKE AT THINE FOUL BLACK HEART EVILDOER!”

Cristobal.8640:

If someone comes knocking down your door because it looks, quote: “Suspicious” what would you do? No, you attacked first :P

Get a less suspicious looking door, probably.

PopeUrban.2578:

FateOmega.9601:

But but .. the instigators have chests!

That’s honestly where I draw the line.

“Adventurer, we need you to slay a great evil…”

“This guy doesn’t look Evil. Maybe a little upset, but not, you know, evil evil”

“He’s rich”

“IN THE NAME OF JUSTICE I STRIKE AT THINE FOUL BLACK HEART EVILDOER!”

TBH I’d rather they just skipped straight to ’we’ll pay you x amount to perform y task’ or ‘help us kill this guy and you can keep whatever he has’.

I love this thread.

Yes, I do feel like the stuff we do are highly morally dubious. But the way I see it, we’re playing the role of silly archetypal heroes who have no clue (with the lines our toons spout, what else can we be?) and the devs are being ironic and subtly poking fun at fantasy RPG tropes. #hipstergamer