Guild Wars 2

So I posted this in response to another thread on Trahearne, but figured it differs sufficiently in tone and direction to warrant it’s own thread…

The degree to which Trahearne is present in your personal story aside (lots of people don’t appreciate being his “second-banana” to him – I get that), what do you think of his leadership qualities?

I personally think Trahearne as written and acted is a great leader. Yes he’s distant and dispassionate – but like all good military leaders he needs to maintain a professional, detached demeanor. Is he entertaining? Loveable? Funny? Outrageous? Emotional? No. But he does exhibit the qualities I want to see in a General.

Anyways, just saying I would follow Trahearne and be proud to do so. He consults his subordinates, considers the impact of his decisions, and maintains decorum. He’s willing to prioritize the mission before his men, and puts his men ahead of himself.

I’ve put 22 years of service in uniform, been to Afghanistan twice and Bosnia once, and worked with senior officers frequently towards the later parts of my career. While I don’t yet hold the rank, at times I have been the acting Sergeant Major for my unit. I’ve been part of a command team with some solid officers, but also some arrogant incompetent fools, both in peace and at war – but I can say that I would willingly follow Trahearne and support his authority.

Now he does sort of dominate what’s supposed to be a personal storyline. Perhaps he should dispatch you and not tag along on the missions. With rare exceptions (e.g. Rommel) modern general officers don’t go running around in the front lines, so that’s a valid complaint. But I think his character is very well written and acted otherwise.

Now I’ve played the Vigil storyline through and I can say I wasn’t really impressed by Forgel. I found him to be a braggart, and close-minded… Not characteristics of senior leadership. He would be a good squad or maybe platoon-level NCO, but that’s where his competencies cease. I’ve just started the Whispers storyline, and while I’ve found Tybalt Leftpaw might be entertaining for comic relief, I wouldn’t follow him – I just couldn’t take him seriously.

So my question to all who dump on Trahearne: What do you think would make him a better military leader? What characteristic does he lack, (or show too much of)?

Cheers!

Trahearne has leadership qualities? That is news to me. O.O

Well The dispatch part will be in future personal story now. Trahearne does have the military job that isn’t about going on the field into combat. He has to remain in Fort Trinity to command the entire Pact army now the pact is officially set now.

Think Fort Trinity as the Pentagon of GW2.

Baron of Winters.5697:

So my question to all who dump on Trahearne: What do you think would make him a better military leader? What characteristic does he lack, (or show too much of)?

I think he would be a better leader if he didn’t put his own insecurities on display so much of the time. It’s fine to have insecurities – he wouldn’t be a normal person if he didn’t. I think, though, that he needs to develop the ability to table his own personal problems for a little while when there’s a mission at stake. The constant need to pat the leader on the back doesn’t exactly do wonders for my morale as one of the led.

I also think he would be a better leader if he kept his morale-killing thoughts to himself. Hearing at the start of combat encounters that “This isn’t going to end well” makes it seem like he either doesn’t trust me when things are actually going fine, or makes the situation worse when we’re struggling.

I wish he wouldn’t react to things like a colleague sacrificing himself with a glib “Moving on.” I realize that’s randomized, but that particular line came at wildly, offensively inappropriate points twice in my own story, and if the developers don’t want the character to seem like a sociopath, they need to think about when those lines could trigger, and whether the implications are horrible if they do.

I think he needs to stop avoiding the troops at important junctures. There were multiple times when the Pact members obviously needed him, and I had to go track him down and pep talk him before he’d even go see them. Meanwhile, they’re just milling around wondering where their leader is. I realize he’s caught up in his own thoughts at those times, but it comes off to me as him caring more about himself than the rest of us. He’d be a better leader if his default response to anything major going down wasn’t to go off and brood by himself.

To sum it all up: I think Trahearne would be a better leader if he wasn’t quite so self-focused. I realize that he had a lot of responsibility, but I think when someone takes a leadership role, they need to prepare to stop making their struggles everyone’s problem, and develop some internal coping skills rather than relying on a near-constant stream of external validation.

Meh his kill lines and battle lines goes off on my like Trahearne has spent too long killing things and he is just use to it. Compared to everyone else in GW2 Trahearne has been fighting and studying Zhaitan’s army since the day he was born so while everyone else can get emotional over the horrors of the Elder Dragon Trahearne has seen these Horrors his entire life.

Still a lot of Trahearne’s back ground has not been answered yet such as his past history with all 3 Orders since everyone of the respects Trahearne because of his past history with all 3 Orders before GW2. Heck his personality may have even been different before GW2 storyline began before he saw all the horrors of Zhaitan’s minions can cause.

I won’t be surprised if some where down his past before GW2 he lost a lot of people he cared about before GW2 story which would explain his bland personality because he has seen a lot a long time seeing these horrible things..

Anakita Snakecharm.4360:

I think he would be a better leader if he didn’t put his own insecurities on display so much of the time.

I see your point – though you the player character (as either his 2nd in Command or his Sgt Maj equivalent) would be his only real confidante for his second thoughts. So from the player’s perspective, it should actually be acceptable behaviour.

Anakita Snakecharm.4360:

I also think he would be a better leader if he kept his morale-killing thoughts to himself. Hearing at the start of combat encounters that “This isn’t going to end well” makes it seem like he either doesn’t trust me when things are actually going fine, or makes the situation worse when we’re struggling…
…I wish he wouldn’t react to things like a colleague sacrificing himself with a glib “Moving on.”

Very good points, I really have no counter to them. I guess I’ve been paying more attention to the cut-scene dialog (which is indeed scripted) as opposed to the random statements he makes during PVE combat.

Anakita Snakecharm.4360:

To sum it all up: I think Trahearne would be a better leader if he wasn’t quite so self-focused.

I guess having been a “second banana” to a CO myself, I see the role of the Sgt Maj / 2IC as a confidante – somebody to whom the commander would expose his or her second thoughts and introspection.

Tybalt (who couldn’t lead three old ladies to Bingo) doesn’t put on the pretense of leadership. But Forgel does, and genuinely sucks at it. I’ve seen bullies and blowhards like him put in charge of real troops, who tried to display that sort of attitude, and they ended up going home from deployment early – either they got relieved of duty by the chain of command, or they had a very inconvenient non-battle injury while working with their own troops.

EdwinLi.1284:

Meh his kill lines and battle lines goes off on my like Trahearne has spent too long killing things and he is just use to it. Compared to everyone else in GW2 Trahearne has been fighting and studying Zhaitan’s army since the day he was born so while everyone else can get emotional over the horrors of the Elder Dragon Trahearne has seen these Horrors his entire life.

One of the main things he says, though, is “This isn’t going to end well.” That doesn’t really fit with what you’re saying.

I can’t buy him as a battle-hardened killer when he told me we were going to lose when we were fighting – to give just two examples – a fish and an unfriendly chicken.

Fish n’ chicken… Maybe he was talking about dinner afterwards?

That dinner comment made me chuckle, for the record.

Baron of Winters.5697:

I see your point – though you the player character (as either his 2nd in Command or his Sgt Maj equivalent) would be his only real confidante for his second thoughts. So from the player’s perspective, it should actually be acceptable behaviour.

Have you not finished the storyline yet? I’m not saying that in a sarcastic way, I’m just a little surprised to hear you say this if you have. Spoiler tag just in case.

During a number of missions he makes those comments in front of other NPCs, but it becomes most painfully apparent in Against the Corruption.

In front of a large group of soldiers. In response to a fairly minor setback.

ETA: I also viewed Forgal very differently than you did. He was actually my favourite character, because I was interpreting it as us bantering back and forth before getting down to business. My character seemed to be giving as good as she was getting. I don’t think there’s a right or wrong when it comes to that sort of view of a character, though – it’s just personalities responding to different personalities.

…Waiting to finish Arah, but otherwise done.

Yeah, I remember that now.

Sheesh – you’re starting to convince me.

Trahearne doesn’t come off as a Battle-hardened killer but more of a distressed seeker who is at his limit after spending years of trying to achieve a goal where no one believed he can do.

Becoming bland in personality doesn’t require combat but most of the time end up being caused by reaching the point where you are about to believe yourself that your goal is hopeless.

EdwinLi.1284:

Becoming bland in personality doesn’t require combat but most of the time end up being caused by reaching the point where you are about to believe yourself that your goal is hopeless.

But that brings us back to the main point, though… if he’s truly one nastily aggressive chicken away from considering the situation hopeless, why does he feel qualified to lead people toward the goal?

I actually don’t mind Trahearne’s blandness. I agree he’s bland, it’s just not an aspect that particularly bothers me. I know it drives other people crazy, though.

Im also a Marine in my country and what i think is too sudden is the rise from scholar to ultimate leader.i get it hes neutral from the orders and has some qualities,still he could have been improved,too much doubts(even thought your the only one to hear them) and his lines are indeed kinda morale killer but ive seen my share of officers and commanders that youd think are total zeros but are actually quite capable,i agree tho that Forgal was best suited for a platoon level leadership ^^

Im suprised that half of the troops dont fall asleep during his speeches. Seriously, the guy has no charisma, no passion. How he managed to keep the pact together is a mystery to me. And yeah, the part about him babbling about how hopeless everything is. He is NOT an inspiring leader.. He is NOT a likable leader. Heck even when he honored a dead norn in hoelbroek, it felt like the voice actor put zero emotion behind the voice. Simply one of the worst voice actors for any character in the game..

Drakenvold.9761:

i agree tho that Forgal was best suited for a platoon level leadership ^^

Even though Forgal was my favourite character, and I interpreted him and my character as getting along really well in a mutually gruff and bantering way, I would agree with this too.

I actually think Forgal himself would agree. I saw no indication that he had any aspirations toward top-level leadership, or that he considered himself suited for such. It seemed to me like he was pretty much where he wanted to be, and felt that he’d reached a suitable endpoint for his career at his present level in the chain of command.

I don’t think Forgal would actually have wanted to be offered the job of Pact Marshal in the first place. I haven’t played through the OoW storyline, but from what I’ve heard from others, I can’t imagine Tybalt would have wanted the job either.

Personally I’d have preferred if Destiney’s Edge had played a larger role in the personal story and not just in the dungeons. I could have easily seen them leading the pact rather than some random dry character such as Trahearne :/ I felt a complete lack of connection to him and still wonder to this day how he managed to get in charge instead of someone else.

All that aside I do wonder if the pale tree had just set this all up so she’d have her roots in this because we all know Trahearne and almost any sylvari would do anything for the tree.

If the pale tree and here’s a possible spoiler Or Pale Trees as shown in the personal story there are more than one and not all guided by the "dream" where to be as some have speculated an elder dragon champion of sorts seeing how there is most likely going to be another Elder dragon (see the crucible of eternity and their studies of the elder dragons they have one for the deep sea dragon and another area full of plant life possibly hinting to an earth/nature themed dragon?) Could this mean it was simply to gain control of a pact capable of stopping the other elder dragons and removing comeptition for the one it “may serve?”

just thought i might chuck this in, i like tybalt, he was funny as hell XD

Serephen.3420:

Personally I’d have preferred if Destiney’s Edge had played a larger role in the personal story and not just in the dungeons. I could have easily seen them leading the pact rather than some random dry character such as Trahearne :/ I felt a complete lack of connection to him and still wonder to this day how he managed to get in charge instead of someone else.

I also hoping that Destiny Edge played a bigger role in the Personal story because of hoe GW2 places them as the True Main Characters of GW2. However, that was not the case.

Still all this demand for our character to become the leader of the Pact because people don’t like Trehearne from most of the player base seems to make me think if they understand what kind of job Trahearne will be getting after the Events of Orr. It is not going to be the job of going on the field and fighting the Elder dragons with the troops that is for certain. That kind of job is for commanders and lower ranks like our character.

Serephen.3420:

Personally I’d have preferred if Destiney’s Edge had played a larger role in the personal story and not just in the dungeons. I could have easily seen them leading the pact rather than some random dry character such as Trahearne :/

Agreed – Rytlok was already proven to be a strong strategic leader. Logan makes emotional decisions though – too much Kirk, not enough Picard in that guy. But Rytlok reminds me of Patton in a way.

Drakenvold.9761:

…ive seen my share of officers and commanders that youd think are total zeros but are actually quite capable,i agree tho that Forgal was best suited for a platoon level leadership ^^

Yeah – it’s funny, but to make it to Battalion level command or higher (in theory) you have to prove your leadership at the lower levels. So some suited towards senior leadership and strategic thinking might never get the chance because they’re poor disciplinarians. Mind you, it’s still WAY better than it was during the days of aristocracy, where family, title, and money bought you your rank.

To be honest I never really saw Tybalt as a leader and to be honest I had no problem with that. It seemed as though he was written to be more of a more established member of the Order at first, but eventually becoming equals. It had the net result of him feeling more like a partner than a leader.

The problem with Trahearne is that he has to fill not one but two leadership roles. First there is the role of military leader. And you could make the case that, in order to do his job as marshal well, he has to be distant, unemotional, calculating, etc., thus defending what many many players critizise as “flat” as being actually fitting.
However Trahearne not only has to fill the role of military leader in the game universe, he also has to fill the role of “dramatic” leader on the narrative meta-level of the game. This role is set from the point where the Pale Tree basically tells you that her kid is not only coming along from now on but he’s taking the lead (gee, thanks…).
So now we need to look at which of these two roles is more important for us as players: do we keep on playing the missions because a) we feel the need to obey the military chain of command or b) because we want to know how the story progresses. I’m pretty confident that in most cases it’s the latter. And in this role Trahearne fails an aweful lot of times. And not for a lack of trying, but because it’s executed very poorly. He does give the “motivational speech before a big battle” that we find in western literature/drama from shakespeare to braveheart – but the “emotionless”, monotone intonation of the voice acting feels more like “I don’t really care”. Trahearne gives us our missions, thus technically allowing us to progress through the story, however he often fails to provide more context. As a pure military leader he doesn’t have to explain anything, but as a narrative leader he should try to keep us engaged, to make us “care” and show us (as should cutscenes, etc. btw.) the “big picture” and “larger scale” results of our doing, giving us feedback on how to feel about / react to the outcome of our missions.
And, as I said before, it it’s not like the game wasn’t trying. At one point one of Zaithan’s minions is trying to damage Trahearne’s reputation. Trahearne tells us about it and DOES provide the grand scale of the situation – “if we can’t win the orders’ respect NOW, the pact will be history and all hope will be lost”. But this is “sabotaged” by the way in which Trahearne delivers this grave news to us. Again the “flat” voice acting combined with a choice of words that sound like a stereotypical british gentleman do not convey any sense of urgency at all…