Guild Wars 2

So I came up with a fresh idea to our class mechanic system, by adding to it. I came up with this idea while playing my elementalist, and how much I love the creativity of the Attunement design. The following suggestion should be taken into consideration with the Rendering/Culling issues fixed first.

These new Mechanics for F2 and F3 will work as toggles, like an attunment, to where one has to be active at all times. This addition will also make it so weapon sets will no longer need to be streamlined as many are requesting and some are against, without even touching them. At the same time this will provide the fix for the backstab issue that A-net is currently attempting to address at the same time adding flavor and fluidity to the class without overpowering it (and increasing the viability of arguably lackluster weapon sets). Each “Attunement”, in this case called “Training”, has benefits and negatives inherently balancing it out and still providing a choice for ALL build options (Extremes and Hybrids alike)

On to the goodie:
1 Must be active at all times, Granted at Character creation, 10s global cooldown effecting F1-F3 when switching/activating a Training.

Assassin Training (F2):
Steal interupts any casted or channeled abilities
Thief can now use any self rooting ability on the move
Dual skills do 15% more damage
Condition damage reduced by 10%
Skill and Action speed increased by 15%
Quickness effectiveness reduced by 65%
Vitality increased by 5%
Boon duration increased by 5%

Shadow Flame Training (F3)
Thief can no longer critical hit.
When bleeding stacks applied by a Thief in Shadow Flame Training are cleansed, the target that was cleansed takes 20% of the total damage that would have accrued from the stacks instantly.
Condition damage increased by 15% while moving
20% chance everytime one of your bleeds tick to steal 200 health (1s IC)
40% Chance to cause Burning @5s on your attack.(8s IC)
Toughness increased by 5%
Healing increased by 5%

Examples:
Backstab Build thief, will obviously use Assassin Training.
They can no longer que up CnD before steal because it will interupt it.
So there is more of a given and take if they want to wait till after steal, or switch some traiting (and lose some damage) to go for Hidden Thief. Backstab and Mug will still do the same damage however quickness will only have 35% effectiveness, however all attacks will be 15% faster at all times while in Assassin training, so really 50% effectiveness on quickness.

S/P thief? Now you can use PW on the move and it is back to its damage before the nerf, but while using that training, quickness will still be 50% less effective, with the same drawbacks (on haste)

Condition Thief?
Yea you cant crit anymore, but you don’t need to. Also now you have a chance to apply burning no matter the weapon set, as well as steal some health on bleed ticks. Since these builds take much longer to kill the target, they need more staying power anyway. Having problems because every class has at least 1 condition removal ability, usually multiple, and some have passive ones as well (all of them remove ALL stacks at once)? Well now the person who just cleansed themself or got cleansed, will still take some damage from all the work (and initiative spent) you just did stacking them up.
This also makes things like Backstab still useful on condition thieves without having to touch the weapon ability, because you still have that chance on hit to do burning

A good balance to this is that your condition damage is buffed but only while moving, so just by an enemy rooting you, stunning you, or knocking you down, will effectively lower the damage the bleeds, poison, and burning are ticking you for. There is also internal cooldowns on all the procs to balance it out, not counting the obvious inability to crit.

For a Hybrid Rampager geared thief (bleed on crit sigil), well you are still viable. You can just sit in Assassin training. There is ONLY a 10% reduction to your condition damage, thats not much. Yea your losing out on the burning or chance to steal a little health, but you are still gaining the increased attack speed, and harder hitting dual skills.

Thanks for reading.

ok ima be the first to comment on this that sounds like one hell of a change right thier +1 i would actually try this now get ready to get downed by other players who are goona comment on this and call this a dumb idea x.x if u dont then i congratz lol

Thank you. Yes it a big change and a smidge on the complicated side, at least on paper. But looking at the big picture at all of the thief issues on both sides of the spectrum, that it solves, it is actually a very simple addition. Something I would actually think Thieves should have had from the beginning.

Teerwik.1650:

both sides of the spectrum

Reducing all thieves into exactly two viable camps is the same problem that the overarching idea has. There isn’t any “both sides of the spectrum”, there are a wealth of viable thief builds, and changes should strive to preserve and nurture that growth, not compartmentalize thieves into increasingly smaller viable courses of action.

“Choose which oddball set of balance changes you want applied to you at any given point in time” is a pretty awful idea for a class mechanic.

If you think Steal should interrupt other abilities, just say “Steal should interrupt other abilities.” Making up an elaborate system in which you can either be in you-really-want-to-Steal-burst-but-you-can’t mode or you-can’t-burst-at-all-but-Steal-works-like-it-used-to mode is ridiculously over-thinking it. (Why does a pure-conditions no-crits-allowed thief even care about being able to Steal in the middle of skill use?)

@ Tulisin You seem to be the only one against anything that gives viability to condition thieves, so until I see some variety, creativity and evidence to support your argument, I will pass here.

@ ASP Thats easy. A P/D condition thief that doesn’t spec into hidden thief, would still use CnD->Steal without interupt to generate stealth and get off their Sneak Attack. Many cond thieves still use dagger storm, they will be able to steal to a target while dagger storm is still channeling while in SF training. Caltrops->Steal? Shadow Assault-> Steal?
You are thinking way to narrowly, try outside the box, there are tons of reasons how anyone can benefit from both, Heck there is nothing stopping a thief skilled enough to sit in Shadow Flame training, then use CND->Steal and switch to Assassin training right before they use backstab, it will just cause CND and mug to not have a chance to crit but backstab still will. Just like everything should be, a trade off.

This is not pigeon-holing, or reducing options either. You clearly don’t play Guild Wars 2 if you think a thief is actually going to be viable without going for either burst(crit), condition, or some of both for killing their target. There is no other option there, and that is the same for arguably every class in this game, and every class in 80% of games. You are either killing your target with hard hitting attacks, with damage over time elements, or a little of both(dps). These changes will add more viability to builds of ALL shapes of sizes, while buffing the low end and reducing the extreme.

Actually, you don’t have to go burst, condition, or a balance between both. What ever happened to pure damage based DPS builds like the one’s that many people run with S/D? For example, I run a 0/30/20/20/0 build which has no “burst” to speak of, and no condition damage either. It’s a balanced DPS build which, quite frankly, would be ridiculouslyly OP with “Assassin Training”.

Incurafy.6329:

Actually, you don’t have to go burst, condition, or a balance between both. What ever happened to pure damage based DPS builds like the one’s that many people run with S/D? For example, I run a 0/30/20/20/0 build which has no “burst” to speak of, and no condition damage either. It’s a balanced DPS build which, quite frankly, would be ridiculouslyly OP with “Assassin Training”.

I can’t tell if this a troll or a joke. There is no pure dps build on a thief not involving crit or cond , period.

Teerwik.1650:

Incurafy.6329:

Actually, you don’t have to go burst, condition, or a balance between both. What ever happened to pure damage based DPS builds like the one’s that many people run with S/D? For example, I run a 0/30/20/20/0 build which has no “burst” to speak of, and no condition damage either. It’s a balanced DPS build which, quite frankly, would be ridiculouslyly OP with “Assassin Training”.

I can’t tell if this a troll or a joke. There is no pure dps build on a thief not involving crit or cond , period.

He’s pointing out that you can run a power/crit build without necessarily using a burst play style. Burst is not synonymous with power-based damage, afterall.

Tulisin.6945:

Teerwik.1650:

Incurafy.6329:

Actually, you don’t have to go burst, condition, or a balance between both. What ever happened to pure damage based DPS builds like the one’s that many people run with S/D? For example, I run a 0/30/20/20/0 build which has no “burst” to speak of, and no condition damage either. It’s a balanced DPS build which, quite frankly, would be ridiculouslyly OP with “Assassin Training”.

I can’t tell if this a troll or a joke. There is no pure dps build on a thief not involving crit or cond , period.

He’s pointing out that you can run a power/crit build without necessarily using a burst play style. Burst is not synonymous with power-based damage, afterall.

And I can 100% guarantee it won’t be a viable build at killing anything other then 100% afks if it runs Just Power and not crit. If it is crit based, with the scaling of Crit damage, no matter what he is going to be doing burst with the hardest hitting attack in the weaponset.

Maybe he is playing a different game and doesn’t know what forums this is. The attack animations/attack speed in this game (at least for this archetype) are crazy slow (barring quickness ofc), compared to other games. Add that to the unnaturally limiting initiative system (slow regen too), there is 0% chance for Power only DPS

Wouldn’t this basically be a buff? Since burst thieves would only use F2 and condition thieves would only use F3.

Would make more sense to split it between stealth/mobility and Damage (not that I want that).

Jefzor.7145:

Wouldn’t this basically be a buff? Since burst thieves would only use F2 and condition thieves would only use F3.

Would make more sense to split it between stealth/mobility and Damage (not that I want that).

No its not a buff. Basically it increases the TTK (Time to Kill) for Backstab thieves on all targets. Since if they used Assassin Training, they would not be able to que up CnD and steal to the target, because steal would interupt the CnD. So that leaves the backstab thief with the following options:

1. CnD after steal
2. Trait out of a bunch of their damage and go for Stealth on Steal
3. Start in Shadow Flame training and do the CnD-> Steal uninterupted but lose out on either CnD nor Mug being able to crit.

Also remember that running quickness on ANY weapon set, when built for burst (assassin training) will have 50% (-65% + 15% see next sentence) effectiveness, further increasing the TTK. However while in Assassin training, the baseline attack/cast speed for all abilities will be 15% faster increasing the DPS (not burst) of Thief which is lacking.

Also note, not a single Dual Skill a thief has in ANY weapon set is in the right place atm, most are unpowered or broken (FS pathing). DB might be argued as the strongest atm, used to be PW, but DB suffers from far too much init cost for the amount of bleed stacks applied + an evade frame that doesnt last through the animation.
With the 15% increase to Dual skill damage it brings PW back to its pre-nerf damage but you have to be in Assassin Training, you would also be able to use PW on the move AND it would obviously be hitting 15% faster, but quickness would be next to worthless to use with it (Assassin Training). With the 15% damage increase it also makes the direct damage element of dual skills like DB and FS more appealing for the burst builds and now worth the initiative cost. Just like being in Shadow Flame training makes weapon abilities usually only viable for Burst builds, now appealing to Condition builds as well.

Thinking outside the box, and giving many options for a player to choose from based on situation, is the baseline for increasing the skill cap. The change, and increasing the TTK even if only for 1 or more seconds (based on target) is just what we need to quell the whines (by giving them more time to react), at the same time it adds more versatility + fluidity to our class AND gives our class mechanic more flavor.

Teerwik.1650:

If it is crit based, with the scaling of Crit damage, no matter what he is going to be doing burst with the hardest hitting attack in the weaponset.

You seem to have a flawed perception of what “burst” means. “Burst” damage is inherently unsustainable, essentially sacrificing sustainable potential to pack more damage into a given (short) timeframe. A full crit/power thief using sword auto attacks and doing >10K per chain may be doing a lot of DPS, but it isn’t a “burst” setup. Conversely, a full defensive stat thief popping utility Haste and spamming something like Unload is going to do less DPS in that same timeframe, but is actually utilizing a “burst” tactic.

Teerwik.1650:

Tulisin.6945:

Teerwik.1650:

Incurafy.6329:

Actually, you don’t have to go burst, condition, or a balance between both. What ever happened to pure damage based DPS builds like the one’s that many people run with S/D? For example, I run a 0/30/20/20/0 build which has no “burst” to speak of, and no condition damage either. It’s a balanced DPS build which, quite frankly, would be ridiculouslyly OP with “Assassin Training”.

I can’t tell if this a troll or a joke. There is no pure dps build on a thief not involving crit or cond , period.

He’s pointing out that you can run a power/crit build without necessarily using a burst play style. Burst is not synonymous with power-based damage, afterall.

And I can 100% guarantee it won’t be a viable build at killing anything other then 100% afks if it runs Just Power and not crit. If it is crit based, with the scaling of Crit damage, no matter what he is going to be doing burst with the hardest hitting attack in the weaponset.

Maybe he is playing a different game and doesn’t know what forums this is. The attack animations/attack speed in this game (at least for this archetype) are crazy slow (barring quickness ofc), compared to other games. Add that to the unnaturally limiting initiative system (slow regen too), there is 0% chance for Power only DPS

The 14 kills / 5 deaths I got on my power thief using P/P and Shortbow last night in two hours of WvW says otherwise. Sure, I still have ~45% crit rate, but I don’t backstab, I don’t pistolwhip and I don’t use assassins signet. I just wear people down with pure DPS while dodging and breaking combat with stealth when needed.

Teerwik.1650:

Tulisin.6945:

Teerwik.1650:

Incurafy.6329:

Actually, you don’t have to go burst, condition, or a balance between both. What ever happened to pure damage based DPS builds like the one’s that many people run with S/D? For example, I run a 0/30/20/20/0 build which has no “burst” to speak of, and no condition damage either. It’s a balanced DPS build which, quite frankly, would be ridiculouslyly OP with “Assassin Training”.

I can’t tell if this a troll or a joke. There is no pure dps build on a thief not involving crit or cond , period.

He’s pointing out that you can run a power/crit build without necessarily using a burst play style. Burst is not synonymous with power-based damage, afterall.

And I can 100% guarantee it won’t be a viable build at killing anything other then 100% afks if it runs Just Power and not crit. If it is crit based, with the scaling of Crit damage, no matter what he is going to be doing burst with the hardest hitting attack in the weaponset.

Maybe he is playing a different game and doesn’t know what forums this is. The attack animations/attack speed in this game (at least for this archetype) are crazy slow (barring quickness ofc), compared to other games. Add that to the unnaturally limiting initiative system (slow regen too), there is 0% chance for Power only DPS

I dont like how you are so absolute with the way you are against power builds. They can work against some things, but you are saying they work nowhere.

High, non-burst, sustained damage works wonders and is actually better than “burst” in many scenarios. My ranger counters the hell out of burst-y thives, due to signet of stone and protect me synergy. Me and my pet take zero dmg for 6 secs.

moose.6973:

Teerwik.1650:

Tulisin.6945:

Teerwik.1650:

Incurafy.6329:

Actually, you don’t have to go burst, condition, or a balance between both. What ever happened to pure damage based DPS builds like the one’s that many people run with S/D? For example, I run a 0/30/20/20/0 build which has no “burst” to speak of, and no condition damage either. It’s a balanced DPS build which, quite frankly, would be ridiculouslyly OP with “Assassin Training”.

I can’t tell if this a troll or a joke. There is no pure dps build on a thief not involving crit or cond , period.

He’s pointing out that you can run a power/crit build without necessarily using a burst play style. Burst is not synonymous with power-based damage, afterall.

And I can 100% guarantee it won’t be a viable build at killing anything other then 100% afks if it runs Just Power and not crit. If it is crit based, with the scaling of Crit damage, no matter what he is going to be doing burst with the hardest hitting attack in the weaponset.

Maybe he is playing a different game and doesn’t know what forums this is. The attack animations/attack speed in this game (at least for this archetype) are crazy slow (barring quickness ofc), compared to other games. Add that to the unnaturally limiting initiative system (slow regen too), there is 0% chance for Power only DPS

I dont like how you are so absolute with the way you are against power builds. They can work against some things, but you are saying they work nowhere.

High, non-burst, sustained damage works wonders and is actually better than “burst” in many scenarios. My ranger counters the hell out of burst-y thives, due to signet of stone and protect me synergy. Me and my pet take zero dmg for 6 secs.

Because I am talking about thief class which is the topic here. No power build, is viable for thief and the current init system. Yes it is absolute. Lets say in a future patch they make it so a power build thief is viable. That would still not be a valid argument against my suggestion in the OP. There is nothing stopping said power build from playing either Training. They are still getting benefits

Teerwik.1650:

Because I am talking about thief class which is the topic here. No power build, is viable for thief and the current init system. Yes it is absolute. Lets say in a future patch they make it so a power build thief is viable. That would still not be a valid argument against my suggestion in the OP. There is nothing stopping said power build from playing either Training. They are still getting benefits

So youre a master thief then right? Youve got everything figured out? Yeah okay.

I dont like your idea, I think the current class system needs a bit of tweaking but thats about it. And for future reference, keep the self-righteousness to a minimum when youre explaining something, it makes you seem childish.

Why does Shadow Flame training have 40% chance to burn targets. Shouldn’t it be poison? It makes more sense with a thief considering their trickery skills. Infact the name shouldn’t be Shadow Flame Training at all. It should be something like “Poision Training”.

And 40% chance on attack? That’s quite high. Imagine a 40% crit chance and you hit the target 10 times. 4 out of 10 of those hits will be a criticals. Same thing that will apply here, except criticals aren’t factored, instead it’s more on the number of hits you apply to the target.

Imagine if a thief popped quickness with 40% chance to burn targets on attack. For a short period of time that burn condition will be active ALOT. Not to mention the burning effect does a tonne of condition damage.

@Jrunyon Actually you seem to be the only one raging in here. That would make you the one being childish. BTW,Master thief? My roomie is in the official thief guild, I just play one in spvp and tpvp and like to come up with ideas that I believe the class should have had since launch

YumCHA You are trying to explain it lore wize, and if we can magically shadowstep, use stealth, create stealth fields and persistant walls of smoke, there is no reason why we shouldn't be able to do something like burning damage. That is why I called it Shadow Flame. Also 40% is not alot. You have to remember burning doesn't tick very fast and cannot stack, it only increases in duration but I put an internal cooldown 3s higher then the 5s duration ( 8s). Thief already has many way to apply poison, and generally it is a lackluster, burning brings something else to the table.

I like the idea and how the op laid out set-backs for using said “training” so you dont just get a flat out buff. However people keep looking at those numbers like thats the only suggestion. Look at ideas and just treat numbers as a extra layer of shine on them because if ideas from the community are every added into the game, we can safely assume Areanet will adjust any values to be balanced b4 releasing it. I for one play thief main and would like an extra profession skill that affects my play style and not just does something or damages someone. (All we get is nerfs because people cry that they don’t know how to counter glass cannons.. disgusts me.)

Question for OP, are those buffs under each Training all on at once or did you just lay out some ideas that could be used? Because honestly, that many buffs from one skill (No matter elite or profession) is a bit much. Still creative and +1 for that.

NinjaEd.3946:

I like the idea and how the op laid out set-backs for using said “training” so you dont just get a flat out buff. However people keep looking at those numbers like thats the only suggestion. Look at ideas and just treat numbers as a extra layer of shine on them because if ideas from the community are every added into the game, we can safely assume Areanet will adjust any values to be balanced b4 releasing it. I for one play thief main and would like an extra profession skill that affects my play style and not just does something or damages someone. (All we get is nerfs because people cry that they don’t know how to counter glass cannons.. disgusts me.)

Question for OP, are those buffs under each Training all on at once or did you just lay out some ideas that could be used? Because honestly, that many buffs from one skill (No matter elite or profession) is a bit much. Still creative and +1 for that.

The last 2 of each I kind of just put there. But other then that there is a pretty equal amount of drawbacks for the amount of buffs. Cannot crit, that is huge. Steal interupting channeled abilities means no more CND before steal, no more PW before steal. half effectiveness on quickness is also very big. And yes, all at once

Thank you for the support though.

For some reason all the edit buttons are gone, but I guess the last 2 could be taken out, so once the edit button is back I will remove them