Guild Wars 2

the new Tequatl fight doesnt need holy trinity and it worked, but most other dungeon still needed it. except new TA dungeon

Because they’re learning how to program this new paradigm. It takes time to learn. Just like the early trinity fights were quite boring and all tank and spank and then it built on itself to get later fights.

It’s like how the first games that come out for new consoles that no one knows how to program for are never as good as later games that learn how to use the language.

We’re in unchartered territory or at least rarely charted territory and it will take time for the programmers to figure out what they can do.

I expect more and better non trinity battles in the future.

I actually really like the system in gw2. Its one of my favorite parts. It allows you to just take care of yourself (besides guards who do a little bit of support) making it alot more dynamic.

The one concern i have is that they make the content viable for every godkitten build so that all need for a properly setup group (i dont mean trinity i mean taking the best build possible) is gone

I love the new system, it allows greater versatility of playstyle for anyone. You don’t HAVE to do just one thing. And that’s a pleasant change. (System still has kinks but I’m not too concerned about those. They’ll be polished.)

SnidgetAsphodel.7961:

chemiclord.3978:

I don’t miss the trinity at all. It can stay gone.

Simple, to the point and I agree.

Now, what I do not understand, is why someone who loves the Holy Trinity is playing GW2? There are so many other games out there that cater to those that want it.

It’s newer than other MMO’s and it’s B2P (no sub fee, no cash shop items required to enjoy the game) … probably the same reasons why those who wanted gear progression bought it despite the pre-launch publicity which strongly suggested that the endame was to be built on horizontal progression.

What keeps me here is the actual mobility during combat. Makes it hard to go back to games that are static and have multitudes of skills/spells that root you.

There are pluses for this system for many players especially the dps crowd. I think it goes without saying that in any MMO the dps crowd is the largest crowd simply because (imo), players don’t want to take on any real responsibility like you would have to do playing a healer in another game. Good ones are praised, bad ones get ridiculed. Some people just can’t deal with that. This game is for them.

I personally think not having to rely on other people while playing in group content is kind of meh on the strat side of things, but the fluidity of the combat and the actual look of the world is what keeps me here and mask a lot of the things I dislike about dungeons in this game. That and I’m curious about where this world is going as I spent years playing GW.

I personally don’t miss the tanking aspect to traditional games. I miss the healing CC roles though. CC is basically not needed in pve here. In fact, I would go so far as to say that the strongest CC in pve (on trash as we all know it’s basically pointless on bosses), is the grouping skill from the Guardians GS#5. Knockbacks and immobilize serve little purpose, while chill/stuns/cripple last no time at all. While some may buy a second, knockbacks usually hurt dps rather than save anything. (eh, sanctuary could help in dredge frac right with placing bombs on doors? eh)

How come mobs don’t try to stomp characters? Knockbacks and stuns would help there.

PvP is a little better when talking about groups because all these different builds show a sort of purpose in what you are trying to accomplish. Buff support, condition damage, spiker, bunker. Also, CC there actually has some weight. Small scale pvp anyway. Spvp.

Large groups in wvw is fun but kind of a crap shoot. Who has the larger organized blob. Key word is organized. Players who know when to pop stability and stuns, drop aoe and dodge roll. Organized is a loose term here. Two groups clash taking out whoever falls instead of actually seeing some strong players and focusing them. There aren’t any battle lines where you are trying to find the weak links. Ofc there are times when the two groups push back and forth and overextenders fall because allies retreated.

But, I still find PvP to have better team builds in other games simply because of healers and if talking about GW1, because of that and the multitude of useful skills and roles within a team. Everyone there had self heals too, but it still had healers. GW1 and even real MMO’s have this sort of frontline/midline/backline makeup. Your purpose beyond w/e map objective was in place was to find a weakness in the team and exploit it to get to the backline to put pressure on the backbone of the team…the healer group. (Arena deathmatches are kind of the same way, but I am specifically talking about Objective style team play)

The only problem in those other games was that if you didn’t have a healer you would almost certainly lose. Steps can be taken to alleviate that problem but to my knowledge no game has done so.

It’s too late to try and make this game into something that requires actual roles or highly involved strats that support those roles. Dps’ing and keeping yourself alive is the name of the game here so far. What they can do in the future is make content that supports needing CC and fights that revolve around more than how fast can you dps. Focus on making fights fun instead having hp sponges.

+ Give us reasons to use the various skills we have. There are tons across the classes that get no pt what so ever, in both pve and pvp. I hardly ever see players use racial elites in pve.

IndigoSundown.5419:

SnidgetAsphodel.7961:

chemiclord.3978:

I don’t miss the trinity at all. It can stay gone.

Simple, to the point and I agree.

Now, what I do not understand, is why someone who loves the Holy Trinity is playing GW2? There are so many other games out there that cater to those that want it.

It’s newer than other MMO’s and it’s B2P (no sub fee, no cash shop items required to enjoy the game) … probably the same reasons why those who wanted gear progression bought it despite the pre-launch publicity which strongly suggested that the endame was to be built on horizontal progression.

It was also because the pre-release media released by Anet, focused a lot on a ‘soft-trinity’ which is something that we did not get. I would much prefer that approach as opposed to to a real trinity for this game.

My favorite character ever in any MMO I have ever played, was my vanilla WoW troll shaman. He was the pretty good example of what a GW2 character could/should have been. I ran deep into the nuking tree and most of the way down the melee tree. I mainly used a shield and a slow one hander. This setup could ranged nuke, up close melee, tank lightly and heal pretty well. Super well rounded, so much so it got nerfed into the ground!

This is what I and I believe many other thought Anet was trying to achieve with GW2 through weapon switching. That way, each class could do pretty much any role they needed to preform and not get stuck with one maybe two, like a traditional trinity. Instead of that, we got all DPS classes, fights so easy they don’t need roles, zerging and dodge rolling… Not quite as compelling.

Well, another “we need trinity” post…. Ok, ill have to agree in that i miss tanking or healing a bit, but i also dont think that those rols are a necesity here. Others could be made. And i also think restricting a class to X rol is not also a good idea here. Tank/Healer/Dps normally works in some way that makes the some rols a must or completely useless.

But somethings could be changed a lil to add rols. If they made it so you can change trait everywhere (without cash shop) and added mobs more skills rols could be implemented imh with traits changing gameplay harder.

For example they could make triats that boost dmg by A LOT while others make all skills give AoE boons in a way you cant take both. So if some1 give boons to others it will do a lot less dmg but boost the group dmg by more than if no1 does that. A third rol could be boon striping and also achived by traits but this to be important mobs should have more boons. Every class could do any rol, just in diferent ways, while at the same time doing DPS.

Just as an example, if mobs had more boons a shater mesmer could use theyr shaters to remove theyr boons, they wont do as much dmg as a full dmg shatter mesmer but will boost overall dmg by more. Elem/guardian boons will make warriors and thieves hit harder also.

All those mechanics are allready there, the thing is theres rarely enough boons to remove and support by bufing your party is rarely focused in traits for most classes and none comes close to the raw power of DPS in PvE. Why not boost the mechanics they allready have?? Give mobs and bosses twice the HP they have but also give some traits that make each attack adds vulnerability and make it be twice as usefull so that way some1 will have to use it to bring them back to the usual time to take them down. Make mobs and bosses constantly reaply some boons (like dedges) so some1 has to remove them. Make every class be able to do that things if you trait for it, just not all at the same time. Conditions could also be made in a way that they are actually needed for PvE, lets face it, if you poison most bosses no1 will even notice it. Give bosses more heals and some1 will have to poison them or it will never end.

Imh the mechanics for rols are allready in game, they are just not strong enough. If they let us change traits all the time, make them way stronger and some mutually exclusive they could make a lot of rols appear. Maybe they could add more retrainers instead? Idk, maybe in waypoints?

Another thing that just came to my mind is they could make classes more even with HP, thoughtness and DMG and then make traits give a positive and a negative effect. For example a grandmaster trait could give 100% boon duration, reduce HP and DMG by 30% and make you share all the boons you cast with your party. Maybe instead of a trait an optional “bonnus” for maxing out a trait line? That way they could dissble those in PvP/WvW? Im just trying to think out of the box wich is probably what devs tried to do also.

Of course this is talking from a strictly PvE point of view and it would be really hard to balance in PvP/WvW. But lets be honest, PvE in “holy trinity games” is rarely balanced, pure tanks are useless in most games since they cant “hold aggro” on a person and usually the team with most healers tends to win. Not every game its like that, but it seems it happen way to often…..

Anyways, its actually up to ANet to decide where they want to take theyr game too….

Edit: Holy mother of a wall of text! You can easy notice i dont want to study! :P

Do some harder content than world bosses or cof1 and say again that cc and support don’t matter at all.

Primernova.5791:

IndigoSundown.5419:

SnidgetAsphodel.7961:

chemiclord.3978:

I don’t miss the trinity at all. It can stay gone.

Simple, to the point and I agree.

Now, what I do not understand, is why someone who loves the Holy Trinity is playing GW2? There are so many other games out there that cater to those that want it.

It’s newer than other MMO’s and it’s B2P (no sub fee, no cash shop items required to enjoy the game) … probably the same reasons why those who wanted gear progression bought it despite the pre-launch publicity which strongly suggested that the endame was to be built on horizontal progression.

It was also because the pre-release media released by Anet, focused a lot on a ‘soft-trinity’ which is something that we did not get. I would much prefer that approach as opposed to to a real trinity for this game …

This is what I and I believe many other thought Anet was trying to achieve with GW2 through weapon switching. That way, each class could do pretty much any role they needed to preform and not get stuck with one maybe two, like a traditional trinity. Instead of that, we got all DPS classes, fights so easy they don’t need roles, zerging and dodge rolling… Not quite as compelling.

I’ll admit, the statement made pre-launch about tanking involving CC to save your party from big hits made me think fondly of play in GW. Thing is, ANet seems to be going for combat involving massive numbers of players in anything significant, and everyone seems to have at least one CC option. I’m not fond of Defiant on bosses, precisely because it pretty much invalidates CC as “tanking” unless the players are perfectly coordinated —- which is not going to happen much in open world, or in dungeon pugs. I would have preferred a period of CC immunity after being CC’d — for both mobs and players.

haviz.1340:

Do some harder content than world bosses or cof1 and say again that cc and support don’t matter at all.

What harder content? where CC matters? please explain.

Arah? lol! makes sense when you can basically run straight to every boss.

The new TA? I’ve only ever run it on my guard in pugs and like I said, I’m doing the grouping with GS#5 so that my groups can AOE or multi-hit targets.

COE? only hard if players can’t dodge alpha attacks. That’s a “we don’t have the timing right” issue, not a “we have to kite or lock down one target while we do something else” issue.

Other than that one skill, I will say it again CC hardly matters at all. Maybe it will when we get some raids or something.

In other games that play up CC and usually use the trinity, there will be mobs that are too much for the group if allowed to roam while the other mobs are being killed and have to be locked down in some way. The only places that remotely had anything happen like is are in things like:

The new Teq at battery phases, helps to use CC to keep mobs away from batteries. Well, slows and knockbacks or pulls.

The others, um…asura/harpy frac. I know I use chains of light here for parts like tanking the abom. The first shaman phase in the grawl frac where CC is probably a must stopping the grawl from pushing the sacrifices into the lava below.

Traps, chills, fears, knockbacks…are nice little gimmicks, but there isn’t any content when it’s actually needed and has to be apart of a fight and ups the chance for success.

Don’t think anyone said anything much about support because it’s there to some degree. I think the guard also trumps every class there because while everyone else pumps out damage enhancers like might or fury, the guard actually prevents damage with things like aegis, blinds, protection and probably the most important skill in the game “WALL OF REFLECTION”. (feedback comes in a close second).

not talking about optimal speed clear groups here as you don’t need anything those groups can do to clear any content in the game. Even in those cases, the largest support anyone gets is might.

P.S. pvp is different story

This is a phenomenal post! Ridiculously well thought-out, excellently written, and incredibly detailed – especially how your ideas could be executed and implemented. Very well done! Indeed, I’m amazed at the amount of rude, blatantly ignorant, and insulting posts responses that have been posted here. This guy obviously spent a lot of time, energy, and thought on this matter, and it deserves to be treated with the proper amount of respect and consideration – otherwise, you should leave this thread and keep your negativity to yourself.

That being said, Mr. OP, your suggestions will never happen, which is truly sad. Changes so fundamental in nature could have possibly occurred back in beta, but at this stage in release, doing so would require an absurd amount of time, energy, and money to design, test, and implement. Not to mention that ANet is highly proud of their work and unlikely to reimagine it based on a few well-thought-out suggestions for a considerable but largely-ignorable problem.

People who play GW2 now are people who have bought the game, which means that aside from gem purchases, all the possible money from them has already been taken. So if a player buys and plays, but then gets bored and goes elsewhere for a bit, that won’t bother ANet as much as it would bother a subscription-based MMO, as the bird is already in the bag with GW2, so to speak. And the game really does perform well as it is – while it’s unfortunate that all dungeons aside from TA Aether involve identical strategies for completion (alternating between stacking and random chaotic running around/dpsing, or a combination thereof), the game is unique enough to draw new people, and then the whole “got your money already” bit kicks in.

And as people have pointed out, the new Aether path really does show that ANet is finally figuring things out and creating content that actually challenges players within their current system. If they keep releasing such content, then the problem of the lack of a trinity should indeed go away slowly over time.

But I really do appreciate your amazing post on this – quite honestly, I think a GW2 system designed from the ground up would be a fantastic gameplay experience – perhaps you should consider working for a game developer someday.

Akari Storm.6809:

What harder content? where CC matters? please explain.

Arah? lol! makes sense when you can basically run straight to every boss.

The new TA? I’ve only ever run it on my guard in pugs and like I said, I’m doing the grouping with GS#5 so that my groups can AOE or multi-hit targets.

COE? only hard if players can’t dodge alpha attacks. That’s a “we don’t have the timing right” issue, not a “we have to kite or lock down one target while we do something else” issue.

Other than that one skill, I will say it again CC hardly matters at all. Maybe it will when we get some raids or something.

In other games that play up CC and usually use the trinity, there will be mobs that are too much for the group if allowed to roam while the other mobs are being killed and have to be locked down in some way. The only places that remotely had anything happen like is are in things like:

The new Teq at battery phases, helps to use CC to keep mobs away from batteries. Well, slows and knockbacks or pulls.

The others, um…asura/harpy frac. I know I use chains of light here for parts like tanking the abom. The first shaman phase in the grawl frac where CC is probably a must stopping the grawl from pushing the sacrifices into the lava below.

Traps, chills, fears, knockbacks…are nice little gimmicks, but there isn’t any content when it’s actually needed and has to be apart of a fight and ups the chance for success.

Don’t think anyone said anything much about support because it’s there to some degree. I think the guard also trumps every class there because while everyone else pumps out damage enhancers like might or fury, the guard actually prevents damage with things like aegis, blinds, protection and probably the most important skill in the game “WALL OF REFLECTION”. (feedback comes in a close second).

not talking about optimal speed clear groups here as you don’t need anything those groups can do to clear any content in the game. Even in those cases, the largest support anyone gets is might.

P.S. pvp is different story

Mobs from high level fractals. You don’t skip them and they hurt harder than bosses. CC is not needed because of design, but it helps. Blame anet for “every party composition should finish the content”.

haviz.1340:

Akari Storm.6809:

What harder content? where CC matters? please explain.

Arah? lol! makes sense when you can basically run straight to every boss.

The new TA? I’ve only ever run it on my guard in pugs and like I said, I’m doing the grouping with GS#5 so that my groups can AOE or multi-hit targets.

COE? only hard if players can’t dodge alpha attacks. That’s a “we don’t have the timing right” issue, not a “we have to kite or lock down one target while we do something else” issue.

Other than that one skill, I will say it again CC hardly matters at all. Maybe it will when we get some raids or something.

In other games that play up CC and usually use the trinity, there will be mobs that are too much for the group if allowed to roam while the other mobs are being killed and have to be locked down in some way. The only places that remotely had anything happen like is are in things like:

The new Teq at battery phases, helps to use CC to keep mobs away from batteries. Well, slows and knockbacks or pulls.

The others, um…asura/harpy frac. I know I use chains of light here for parts like tanking the abom. The first shaman phase in the grawl frac where CC is probably a must stopping the grawl from pushing the sacrifices into the lava below.

Traps, chills, fears, knockbacks…are nice little gimmicks, but there isn’t any content when it’s actually needed and has to be apart of a fight and ups the chance for success.

Don’t think anyone said anything much about support because it’s there to some degree. I think the guard also trumps every class there because while everyone else pumps out damage enhancers like might or fury, the guard actually prevents damage with things like aegis, blinds, protection and probably the most important skill in the game “WALL OF REFLECTION”. (feedback comes in a close second).

not talking about optimal speed clear groups here as you don’t need anything those groups can do to clear any content in the game. Even in those cases, the largest support anyone gets is might.

P.S. pvp is different story

Mobs from high level fractals. You don’t skip them and they hurt harder than bosses. CC is not needed because of design, but it helps. Blame anet for “every party composition should finish the content”.

CC does not exist in this game in any form. Knocking down a mob or a player for 1-2 seconds is completely pointless except for an interrupt.

Charm, sleep, mesmerize, root, transmogrify, polymorph, fear, mind control and sap are CCs. All are from 8 to 45 seconds long, some can be ranged casted and all have varied rules for breaking. Some even have benefits for the victim.

Mesket.5728:

Draknar.5748:

Mesket.5728:

Draknar.5748:

Mesket.5728:

This game will simply lose players that are fond to role playing games simply because this game is not a role playing game. Nobody has a role in a group.

Clearly you don’t understand what role-playing games are. The role-playing is you as a human being playing the role of a fantasy adventurer. That is the minimum requirement, of which GW2 fulfills in its entirety.

I’ve had my share of board role playing games as a kid and later on MMOs since ’97. I kind of get what playing roles means.

I disagree, I don’t think GW2 covers the least expected from a role playing game. Not a computer based role playing game. If this was a book game, then we could all RP; but since the nature of computer games is quite different, roles has to be pushed through your role on a group. What is your role? what is your place? what do you do that the other do not? what do you lack of?

This game has the exactly same mechanic as if we were all playing Darksiders online and we all play the same character. The only difference is you cast it purple, I cast it red.

My role is a Sylvari guardian, born from the whatever tree, here to help stop the Risen/Zhaitan and/or any other threat to Tyria. That’s it. That’s all it needs to be.

What was my role in Aion? I’m a daeva like everyone else and I fight the badguys/opposite faction. What was my role in WoW? I’m an Undead priest, who needs to fight the bad guys/opposite faction like all of the other people and I go on quests to help random NPCs or do a dungeon instance that has very little back-story. At least GW2 tries to explain dungeons via Story Mode. Why was I running Shadowfang Keep again? To kill the nameless bad guy? What was my role in Asheron’s Call, or UO? I was a guy that wandered around killing monsters or other players and leveling up. That’s it.

GW2 is no different from any other MMORPG as far as RPing goes. You make it what you want like any other game.

We will never get an agreement here… you are talking about your role as in a board role playing game. I’m talking about your mechanic role in a party as a computer role playing game. You are trying to use the back story which is shallow and already written for you unlike really role playing games as an argument to justify that is fine if we have no mechanic roles in the party and we all play the same character. With that concept (and I agree here, this is kinda true) you can role play Mario Bross if you like but we all know that is not a role playing game (though you can turn it into one in your head). Computer role games relies on mechanic roles to support the character class and background as in the old school pioneers like Gauntlet (1985).

I really really really don’t think that’s what the “Role” in Role-playing game means. It refers to the player taking on the role of the character, not the player having a role on a team. If I’m wrong someone please tell me because I’ve been operating under this assumption for well over a decade now.

Primernova.5791:

Charm, sleep, mesmerize, root, transmogrify, polymorph, fear, mind control and sap are CCs. All are from 8 to 45 seconds long, some can be ranged casted and all have varied rules for breaking. Some even have benefits for the victim.

Won’t argue with you on lack of CC, but I will mention that Fear, Root, and Polymorph all exist in this game. Knockdown is a CC, think of it like a 3-5sec stun. I’ve been feared for at least 5secs before, same with polymorph, and I know I’ve been rooted for at least 10secs before. Mostly on account I didn’t attack my way out of the root.

But GW2 does not have any encounters that require CC. I don’t hate the fact CC isn’t necessary, but I do kinda miss it as a feature. You see a group of 5 mobs, you can CC two, fight 3. Just a fun dynamic in general.

Draknar.5748:

I really really really don’t think that’s what the “Role” in Role-playing game means. It refers to the player taking on the role of the character, not the player having a role on a team. If I’m wrong someone please tell me because I’ve been operating under this assumption for well over a decade now.

No, you’re right. That’s what it means, that’s what it’s always meant. But you know how it goes: people will keep saying things like “Oh, that’s the most unique thing I’ve ever seen!” until unique stops being a word denoting an absolute condition and becomes just another synonym for ‘different’.

Draknar.5748:

Mesket.5728:

Draknar.5748:

Mesket.5728:

Draknar.5748:

Mesket.5728:

This game will simply lose players that are fond to role playing games simply because this game is not a role playing game. Nobody has a role in a group.

Clearly you don’t understand what role-playing games are. The role-playing is you as a human being playing the role of a fantasy adventurer. That is the minimum requirement, of which GW2 fulfills in its entirety.

I’ve had my share of board role playing games as a kid and later on MMOs since ’97. I kind of get what playing roles means.

I disagree, I don’t think GW2 covers the least expected from a role playing game. Not a computer based role playing game. If this was a book game, then we could all RP; but since the nature of computer games is quite different, roles has to be pushed through your role on a group. What is your role? what is your place? what do you do that the other do not? what do you lack of?

This game has the exactly same mechanic as if we were all playing Darksiders online and we all play the same character. The only difference is you cast it purple, I cast it red.

My role is a Sylvari guardian, born from the whatever tree, here to help stop the Risen/Zhaitan and/or any other threat to Tyria. That’s it. That’s all it needs to be.

What was my role in Aion? I’m a daeva like everyone else and I fight the badguys/opposite faction. What was my role in WoW? I’m an Undead priest, who needs to fight the bad guys/opposite faction like all of the other people and I go on quests to help random NPCs or do a dungeon instance that has very little back-story. At least GW2 tries to explain dungeons via Story Mode. Why was I running Shadowfang Keep again? To kill the nameless bad guy? What was my role in Asheron’s Call, or UO? I was a guy that wandered around killing monsters or other players and leveling up. That’s it.

GW2 is no different from any other MMORPG as far as RPing goes. You make it what you want like any other game.

We will never get an agreement here… you are talking about your role as in a board role playing game. I’m talking about your mechanic role in a party as a computer role playing game. You are trying to use the back story which is shallow and already written for you unlike really role playing games as an argument to justify that is fine if we have no mechanic roles in the party and we all play the same character. With that concept (and I agree here, this is kinda true) you can role play Mario Bross if you like but we all know that is not a role playing game (though you can turn it into one in your head). Computer role games relies on mechanic roles to support the character class and background as in the old school pioneers like Gauntlet (1985).

I really really really don’t think that’s what the “Role” in Role-playing game means. It refers to the player taking on the role of the character, not the player having a role on a team. If I’m wrong someone please tell me because I’ve been operating under this assumption for well over a decade now.

Me too, and that is why I said before that from that point of view, even Mario Bross is a role playing game. Everything is a role playing game, even Mortal Kombat.

You need to support the story role with a mechanic role to make it work on video games, is not like in book or board games, if not, there is no end to what is a RPG.

Primernova.5791:

CC does not exist in this game in any form. Knocking down a mob or a player for 1-2 seconds is completely pointless except for an interrupt.

Charm, sleep, mesmerize, root, transmogrify, polymorph, fear, mind control and sap are CCs. All are from 8 to 45 seconds long, some can be ranged casted and all have varied rules for breaking. Some even have benefits for the victim.

You even mentioned how long they should last, splendid.

Draknar.5748:

Primernova.5791:

Charm, sleep, mesmerize, root, transmogrify, polymorph, fear, mind control and sap are CCs. All are from 8 to 45 seconds long, some can be ranged casted and all have varied rules for breaking. Some even have benefits for the victim.

Won’t argue with you on lack of CC, but I will mention that Fear, Root, and Polymorph all exist in this game. Knockdown is a CC, think of it like a 3-5sec stun. I’ve been feared for at least 5secs before, same with polymorph, and I know I’ve been rooted for at least 10secs before. Mostly on account I didn’t attack my way out of the root.

But GW2 does not have any encounters that require CC. I don’t hate the fact CC isn’t necessary, but I do kinda miss it as a feature. You see a group of 5 mobs, you can CC two, fight 3. Just a fun dynamic in general.

Exactly! The ‘PvE cc’ aspect is so completely lost. Your first paragraph dealt with PvP I assume, those times and effects are fine. In PvP, long predictable cc is just annoying but in PvE it makes tough mobs, with nasty mechanics, doable by the devs and playable for us. This adds depth, something this game’s PVE sorely lacks.

I’ve been trying to think of an example of a PvE encounter that explained not only the trinity but CCs effects on PvE and I thought of a few, but only one kept coming to mind, the UBRS corner mob pack before The Beast in early vanilla…

Early UBRS was 15 and then 10 man, it was the first raid in that game and very likely some fine folks at Anet had a hand in that place back then. The ‘corner pack’ was around 10-15+ mobs and they sucked if you didn’t pull them right. Some hit like trucks, others healed or summoned more mobs making the pack balloon out of control. The rogues (thieves here) went in first for 90% hit chance, 45+- second saps and then picked targets for the rest of the group to assist off of (this pre-dates raid markers) players knew which rogue to assist before the pull, this caused the dangerous and tanked mobs to be burned down first and in order.

Right before the tanks pulled, the mages, druids and warlocks would apply their ranged CC. This started the fight and the tanks had to run in quickly to start pulling the pack apart as it ran at the group, with sunders, shield slams and once far enough away from the CCed mobs, a thunderclap (weak aoe threat) to try to keep the mobs off very squishy healers.

Once the pull looked ‘clean’ the healers would go to work, keeping people alive, helping CC, doing some dps, maintaining a safe range, keep the whole party in LoS, not wasting mana and at all costs, avoiding agro as it would one shot them. The dps had as much of a job protecting healers as the tanks did, so at this point the group was one unit, adapting to a nasty fight as mistakes were inevitably made.

I must ask at this point, does that not sound kittening fun, for a PvE fight? It was just a trash pack that took more time to kill than entire dungeons in GW2! Nothing but random loot could drop and then once it was killed, an epic boss fight followed, that will be remembered by folks like me, until death!

Are current gamers not interested in such fights?

I think they are, they just are denied the chance to even try anymore for ‘reasons’…

Primernova.5791:

Are current gamers not interested in such fights?

I’m sure they would be, because honestly, I enjoy doing the GW2 dungeons and all, and I appreciate mechanics outside of just fighting (Aetherblade Retreat or Molten Facility dungeon for example— having to avoid lighting waves, jump things, etc. — I found this to be a great addition to dungeons that other games never really did), but most of the fights (trash clearing at least), just comes down to tank and spank.

I mean really, there’s no real rhyme or reason to it. We get to a room, pull 4-5 mobs, then its a free-for-all to kill them. You can target for organization, but that’s not really necessary most of the time. And that’s literally the only option. Target one mob, focus fire, move to next, or kill everything with AoE. There isn’t the added strategy of controlling one type of enemy (ranged or casters for example) versus another.

Most boss fights also boil down to tank and spank, but I will concede that there are boss fights that have a little bit more of a strategy to them (the new TA path is a good example). But trash clearing? That’s all mindless damage dumping on whatever is around you.

I know why they did it. They want all dungeons to be able to be completed by any make-up of groups. If you want all Mesmers, it should be doable, if you want all Thieves, it should be doable.

If they added CC to the dynamic then many dungeons would require a specific class, and they don’t want to get into that because a) that slows things down when you have a group but need one more specific class and have to wait and b) it limits who can join (“oh sorry buddy, we’re full on CCers”). The way it is now it really doesn’t matter unless you are an elitist and only focus on absolute fastest run times (which is well within your right to do, but come on we can all agree that all GW2 content is easy enough to beat with any combo of classes).

yearsonehundred.6139:

This is a phenomenal post! Ridiculously well thought-out, excellently written, and incredibly detailed – especially how your ideas could be executed and implemented. Very well done!

But I really do appreciate your amazing post on this – quite honestly, I think a GW2 system designed from the ground up would be a fantastic gameplay experience – perhaps you should consider working for a game developer someday.

Why thank you, it is kind of you to say so.

Well, this was an interesting experiment. I got the results I more or less expected, as I try and grapple with the true nature of some of these problems that GW2 has had since launch, which did begin with throwing out the Holy Trinity.

Of course I was never very serious about actually having the Holy Trinity back, I’m well aware of all the problems inherit with it, and naturally that it would never happen in GW2. Of course some of my suggestions stand on their own, but that’s beside the point.
I just made the case to gauge peoples reaction and arguments as figure out the root of the problem, which I believe I have.

-
It is one of structure and content rather then dedicated roles.
As I stated before, the Holy Trinity is made with the couple of dedicated roles in mind, and content is built around them, and as such it can be challenging and have strong interplay between players.
It’s a kind of bottom up structure to game design.

Naturally we don’t have that here, so the alternative is a top down structure, as with SPvP, which structure and purpose from outside the roles and classes entirely.
It’s difficult to explain, so I will do it in a new thread where I can go at length.
Suffice to say, but there is still much that we can learn from the Holy Trinity, even if it isn’t implemented into GW2.

-

So with that said, this thread is unofficial closed.
Feel free to continue to argue if you wish, but it won’t do you much good I assure you.

Draknar.5748:

I really really really don’t think that’s what the “Role” in Role-playing game means. It refers to the player taking on the role of the character, not the player having a role on a team. If I’m wrong someone please tell me because I’ve been operating under this assumption for well over a decade now.

Your interpretation is correct.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Draknar.5748:

I really really really don’t think that’s what the “Role” in Role-playing game means. It refers to the player taking on the role of the character, not the player having a role on a team. If I’m wrong someone please tell me because I’ve been operating under this assumption for well over a decade now.

Your interpretation is correct.

This is what RPG means to me since day one. I for one really cannot adapt to any form of tank healer dps game. GW2 is actually perfect for me.

BlackWolf.8605:

Why is it everytime i see a post about wanting trinaty back its from an ex tank/ ex healer…
do you miss the time when you were popular for being a bog standard player but still getting invited as you were needed?
do you miss when all you really did was stand there takeing hits/ healing at range
do you really miss that fame cause you played a boreing roll?

things i dont miss are…
waiting for a healer/tank to come online to do some basic main game content
haveing to roll a healer or tank as a second choice just to join somthing then being rediculed as im not 100% tank/healer therefore i not “the best”
a class not getting any intresting dynamics as all it does is stand and heal you/others
a class litteraly as a meat shield

Lol, if anything tank and healers are the most skill dependent/ l es s b oring roles in trinity oriented games…

Why is les s boring filtered to kitten???

Spamming heals or soaking hits is skill dependent? Looking at HP bars is skill dependent? Healers are just bads looking to be carried by DPS.

GW2 has a great system where each class has their own burst heal, each class can DPS, and some classes can soak hits, but put together in a way that no class is strictly necessary.

They added a gear threadmill (ascended), they added the first raid (tequatl), I guess it won’t take long before trinity and mounts show up….

Primernova.5791:

Draknar.5748:

Primernova.5791:

Charm, sleep, mesmerize, root, transmogrify, polymorph, fear, mind control and sap are CCs. All are from 8 to 45 seconds long, some can be ranged casted and all have varied rules for breaking. Some even have benefits for the victim.

Won’t argue with you on lack of CC, but I will mention that Fear, Root, and Polymorph all exist in this game. Knockdown is a CC, think of it like a 3-5sec stun. I’ve been feared for at least 5secs before, same with polymorph, and I know I’ve been rooted for at least 10secs before. Mostly on account I didn’t attack my way out of the root.

But GW2 does not have any encounters that require CC. I don’t hate the fact CC isn’t necessary, but I do kinda miss it as a feature. You see a group of 5 mobs, you can CC two, fight 3. Just a fun dynamic in general.

Exactly! The ‘PvE cc’ aspect is so completely lost. Your first paragraph dealt with PvP I assume, those times and effects are fine. In PvP, long predictable cc is just annoying but in PvE it makes tough mobs, with nasty mechanics, doable by the devs and playable for us. This adds depth, something this game’s PVE sorely lacks.

I’ve been trying to think of an example of a PvE encounter that explained not only the trinity but CCs effects on PvE and I thought of a few, but only one kept coming to mind, the UBRS corner mob pack before The Beast in early vanilla…

Early UBRS was 15 and then 10 man, it was the first raid in that game and very likely some fine folks at Anet had a hand in that place back then. The ‘corner pack’ was around 10-15+ mobs and they sucked if you didn’t pull them right. Some hit like trucks, others healed or summoned more mobs making the pack balloon out of control. The rogues (thieves here) went in first for 90% hit chance, 45+- second saps and then picked targets for the rest of the group to assist off of (this pre-dates raid markers) players knew which rogue to assist before the pull, this caused the dangerous and tanked mobs to be burned down first and in order.

Right before the tanks pulled, the mages, druids and warlocks would apply their ranged CC. This started the fight and the tanks had to run in quickly to start pulling the pack apart as it ran at the group, with sunders, shield slams and once far enough away from the CCed mobs, a thunderclap (weak aoe threat) to try to keep the mobs off very squishy healers.

Once the pull looked ‘clean’ the healers would go to work, keeping people alive, helping CC, doing some dps, maintaining a safe range, keep the whole party in LoS, not wasting mana and at all costs, avoiding agro as it would one shot them. The dps had as much of a job protecting healers as the tanks did, so at this point the group was one unit, adapting to a nasty fight as mistakes were inevitably made.

I must ask at this point, does that not sound kittening fun, for a PvE fight? It was just a trash pack that took more time to kill than entire dungeons in GW2! Nothing but random loot could drop and then once it was killed, an epic boss fight followed, that will be remembered by folks like me, until death!

Are current gamers not interested in such fights?

I think they are, they just are denied the chance to even try anymore for ‘reasons’…

No I am not and No it does not. I’m tired of having my success tied to the efficiency or ability of others.
If you want that sort of feeling and that sort of PVE dynamic maybe you’re playing the wrong game.

If you look at the Twilight Assault dungeon, you’ll note that they already just added a ‘trinity’ of sorts. You need people who can provide DPS, group support, and survive long enough to be of use. In other words, they upped it to where well balanced builds seem to be the best builds now. My trap ranger does wonderfully in that dungeon.

Primernova.5791:

…[snip]…

Are current gamers not interested in such fights?

I think they are, they just are denied the chance to even try anymore for ‘reasons’…

I would actually welcome more fights like this, where you need your team to really work together to make things happen. As much as your tale of past UBRS glories took me down memory lane though, I am happy to not be tied into the comparatively static combat anymore, or be forced to have x tanks and n healers before being able to set off.

I believe GW2 has the combat mechanics already in place to allow for rather elaborate fights with somewhat more defined roles, like support / dps / cc. It just doesn’t make much use of it yet, as in PvE almost everything can be zerged down.

There is still the faint hope in me that aNet will introduce more challenging content where having ascended equipment would actually be worthwhile. And not just for some random artificial stat like agony resistance.

I agree with the OP to the sense that there’s little to no role playing with characters in the combat of the game. This games equation is basically limited to (DPS + Fast Kill = entertainment).

For me, I’d like something different for a change. I’ll literal pop the Combat Healer title and build around it to have some fun. Though healing and tanking is extremely limited. I blame this on the dodging mechanic that’s meant to create a frenetic and adrenaline inducing experience. Which is not the kind of gamer I am. I think a lot of MMORPG types are very creative and want roles. Hence, the RPG part of it

The Dev’s just need to allow us to build deeper into tanking, healing, and cleansing, so we can play it our way more.

BlackWolf.8605:

Why is it everytime i see a post about wanting trinaty back its from an ex tank/ ex healer…

I was thinking the same thing. Some of my mates told me that they hate Guild Wars 2 because they don’t feel “important”. They don’t like the idea of playing without a mechanic that makes them different from other players.

On the OP: I don’t think trinity is needed to make a good fight. Fights live and die on their mechanics. Trinity games with “good” fights require each “role” to master a mechanic to clear the fight. The mechanics separate the good and bad players of each role, not the trinity. The only reason a tank can take the tank role vs a heavy armour DPS is an arbitrary mechanic that says “tanks get more aggro”.

GW2 has the right idea by ditching the trinity. A group of players can change “mechanic” from fight to fight based on their aptitude for a task rather than being locked down by an arbitrary “role”. ANet needs to catch up with their vision by making difficult encounters that require more than speed runs. I am sticking around because I think it can be done.

I agree with a lot of what you said, Yoh. I never thought about how important the trinity/roles were until I played GW2. It is definitely the reason that keeps it from being my go-to-MMO. Sadly, as long as the game is lacking some semblance of a trinity; it will be the game I log in to for seasonal events and/or my other MMOs are updating. That’s pretty much it.

I know there will be some that do not agree with my point of view and I can respect that. It’s just the experience that I have had playing my Guardian 1-80.

Yoh.8469:

So with that said, this thread is unofficial closed.
Feel free to continue to argue if you wish, but it won’t do you much good I assure you.

It’ll continue to do as much good as it did when you were still in the conversation.

Thinking about a trinity system, I could see one being very interesting if

1) Enemies prioritized targets intelligently or not depending on their type. (A zombie may target the closest living person, a pirate captain goes after the most dangerous target, a wild animal may attack the largest or the smallest, etc…)

and

2) No clipping though enemies. A wall of tanks can prevent people from going through them.

Now tanks have to work to keep the attention of the attacker, have to position themselves between the enemy and the squishies.

In the current Guild wars system, it would never work.

Draknar.5748:

Mesket.5728:

This game will simply lose players that are fond to role playing games simply because this game is not a role playing game. Nobody has a role in a group.

Clearly you don’t understand what role-playing games are. The role-playing is you as a human being playing the role of a fantasy adventurer. That is the minimum requirement, of which GW2 fulfills in its entirety.

I have to agree with you and Vayne on this.

I play each of my characters as if they really have personalities and a purpose within the game world.

I am not a hardcore RPer acting out a persona within that framework but I respect those players a great deal and make sure that when I encounter them my actions are not a negative impact on how they play the game.

GW2 provides me with the exact kind of game play I like. I can participate in group events and game play as I see fit yet still be sell sufficient enough to do my own things on a solo basis when I choose to.

During many encounters I will go way out of my way to heal or rez a player when they need it.

I will swap out utilities on my Warrior, Guardian, or Necromancer(s) that will help with certain fights and encounters. For me this is role.

I don’t do dungeon play. I probably would except that I rarely want to dedicate a time frame and completion aside for an encounter and often have it placed in jeopardy due to group malfunction, attitude/ego, and or super fast or super slow play.

I want to come and go within the game world whenever I want to and GW2 gives me everything I need and allows me to experience most of the game without requiring extensive game play.

The moment the holy trinity shows up, all of that changes. Suddenly the world becomes a place that revolves around forced grouping and content that is less accessible for me.

As it stand right now group players have content of varying difficulty that they can play that does not impact me and I have content of varying difficulty that I can play at will that does not impact the group players.

If you want to change an entire game structure and the entire system in order to find some level of enjoyment you are in the wrong game. What you seek is available in so many other places.

Go there. Enjoy. Stop trying to make my game into something else please. I promise you I will never show up in your trinity based game trying to make it into something else. That I guarantee.

chefdiablo.6791:

Draknar.5748:

Mesket.5728:

This game will simply lose players that are fond to role playing games simply because this game is not a role playing game. Nobody has a role in a group.

Clearly you don’t understand what role-playing games are. The role-playing is you as a human being playing the role of a fantasy adventurer. That is the minimum requirement, of which GW2 fulfills in its entirety.

I have to agree with you and Vayne on this.

I play each of my characters as if they really have personalities and a purpose within the game world.

I am not a hardcore RPer acting out a persona within that framework but I respect those players a great deal and make sure that when I encounter them my actions are not a negative impact on how they play the game.

GW2 provides me with the exact kind of game play I like. I can participate in group events and game play as I see fit yet still be sell sufficient enough to do my own things on a solo basis when I choose to.

During many encounters I will go way out of my way to heal or rez a player when they need it.

I will swap out utilities on my Warrior, Guardian, or Necromancer(s) that will help with certain fights and encounters. For me this is role.

I don’t do dungeon play. I probably would except that I rarely want to dedicate a time frame and completion aside for an encounter and often have it placed in jeopardy due to group malfunction, attitude/ego, and or super fast or super slow play.

I want to come and go within the game world whenever I want to and GW2 gives me everything I need and allows me to experience most of the game without requiring extensive game play.

The moment the holy trinity shows up, all of that changes. Suddenly the world becomes a place that revolves around forced grouping and content that is less accessible for me.

As it stand right now group players have content of varying difficulty that they can play that does not impact me and I have content of varying difficulty that I can play at will that does not impact the group players.

If you want to change an entire game structure and the entire system in order to find some level of enjoyment you are in the wrong game. What you seek is available in so many other places.

Go there. Enjoy. Stop trying to make my game into something else please. I promise you I will never show up in your trinity based game trying to make it into something else. That I guarantee.

If you don’t do dungeons… how many more opportunities do you have to play in party? and like I said before, with that concept we can all RP in Mario Bross. The difference between computer/console RP games and book RP games is that in most computer/console games, your role is supported by a mechanic or a set of skills that give you a special partiticipation in your group where you shine and others don’t (and of course its counter weakness where others shine). In this game you can Role Play all you want siting on the grass and picking up flowers. I like to do it too and I have over 500 screenshots, believe me; but I’d like to see that “role play” as in a traditional computer game as well. If you do dungeons and play in group more often, you will realize after a while that it kind of kills the fantasy when EVERYONE does the exact same thing. There is no difference between a Charr warrior and an Azura elemetalist rather than the color of their skills. (In most cases) They both go for max dps, stack mights, clean conditions, etc etc… they all share the mechanics, buffs and debuff. There are only a few things one can do over the other and its simple gimics like banners and summon weapons. Can we define the role of this classes on this different skills? is it there where the role ends?

I really don’t care for tanks and healers in this games. I was happy to read they weren’t going to exists here and was hopping to find something different. I am kind of disappointing to find out that removing the roles meant no roles at all. And its not even only me saying this… please explain the inconsistency that exist on a game that advertise no tanks or healers (but has tank stats and healer stats on their gear) and replaced them with support and CC (where there are no stats to provide stronger buffs or stronger CC). It seems to me this is a bad design after all. It doesn’t have much thought put into it as we think…

ps. excuse bad engrish

The exclusion of the trinity in this game is so fundamental to it’s design that trying to make a logical and passionate argument to “bring it back” is simply a waste of time. They designed and built a car. Asking for wings to make it fly or a hull so it can drive on water isn’t going to happen. They will not make Chitty Chitty Bang Bang. They aren’t going to abandon their decision of making this game solo friendly, by making all the professions simply variations on a jack of all trades, because some crave rigid order in their MMOs. The game’s design was about getting rid of a lot of that formal rigidity. Getting rid of all the impediments surrounding exclusion. We all can heal, we all can rez, we all have range and melee attacks, none of the professions are suitable to be meat shields. If anything we are just slightly above class cannons (at least the zerkers).

I understand that this game is so very much unlike other MMOs but asking for it to be turned into something closer to the status quo isn’t going to happen. You need to adapt to it, not the other way around.

Spitjaw.2987:

I must say OP has really good points there.

It beats me how can people not realise simple fact that holly trinity would made boss fights ( mechanics), so much more versatile and interesting then without heal,tank,dps system.

PVE in GW2 lacking sooo much (i am speaking for myself here) and is just outright boring.

ON the other hand,i like how current system works in PVP and combat system is very interesting and fun (tho there is WAST space for improvements),so i am kinda split with my opinnion bout holly trinity.

For me..it sucks in PVE and i hate PVE in this game,but it works pretty good in PVP.

Oh yes…for people who thinks that they would have problem to find groups,did you read LFG pannel latelly?:P

Its like..you open it and in description you see (all in caps ofc) “ONLY WARRIORS AND MESMERS”…." ONLY 5K ACHI POINTS PEOPLE" (this is easily my favourite ever:P) and kitten like that.

Its there guys..you dont need holly trinity for this kind of behaviour .

Cheers

So you mean like, “tanks get aggro”, DO DAMAGE and don’t care about kitten?" you mean that trinity? yeah it’s so much fun standing there pressing a rotation.

Behellagh.1468:

They designed and built a car. Asking for wings to make it fly or a hull so it can drive on water isn’t going to happen.

That is the problem… they said they were going to make a car without wheels… so we were all expecting some new kind of mobility, some hover system or anything… instead they did what they said… they built a car without wheels and nothing more. A simple car without wheels.

It’s easy to say we will remove the trinity just like that… so hey, whats new? what will replace it? nothing… lot of classes that can do everything. We are single players doing the same next to each other.

Mesket.5728:

Behellagh.1468:

They designed and built a car. Asking for wings to make it fly or a hull so it can drive on water isn’t going to happen.

That is the problem… they said they were going to make a car without wheels… so we were all expecting some new kind of mobility, some hover system or anything… instead they did what they said… they built a car without wheels and nothing more. A simple car without wheels.

It’s easy to say we will remove the trinity just like that… so hey, whats new? what will replace it? nothing… lot of classes that can do everything. We are single players doing the same next to each other.

What’s new is for you the player to learn to adapt to a system where it’s someone else’s job to keep you alive in battle or to keep the critters off your back. It’s about dodging and flanking rather than simple mindless fixed roles. The challenge in dungeons, where you are forced to have a fixed size party, is about strategy of near equals not the super specialized.

The concept of Fighter, MU, Cleric, Thief has been around for 40 years in gaming. Very fixed roles with loads of limitations that niche each of those archetypes game play styles simply because of those limitations. This got propagated into video games, first fantasy RPGs and then FPS games when they introduced classes. It’s ingrained today so much that when a game like GW2 tries to break that mold many consider that it’s the game that’s broken rather than our preconceptions.

Behellagh.1468:

Mesket.5728:

Behellagh.1468:

They designed and built a car. Asking for wings to make it fly or a hull so it can drive on water isn’t going to happen.

That is the problem… they said they were going to make a car without wheels… so we were all expecting some new kind of mobility, some hover system or anything… instead they did what they said… they built a car without wheels and nothing more. A simple car without wheels.

It’s easy to say we will remove the trinity just like that… so hey, whats new? what will replace it? nothing… lot of classes that can do everything. We are single players doing the same next to each other.

What’s new is for you the player to learn to adapt to a system where it’s someone else’s job to keep you alive in battle or to keep the critters off your back. It’s about dodging and flanking rather than simple mindless fixed roles. The challenge in dungeons, where you are forced to have a fixed size party, is about strategy of near equals not the super specialized.

The concept of Fighter, MU, Cleric, Thief has been around for 40 years in gaming. Very fixed roles with loads of limitations that niche each of those archetypes game play styles simply because of those limitations. This got propagated into video games, first fantasy RPGs and then FPS games when they introduced classes. It’s ingrained today so much that when a game like GW2 tries to break that mold many consider that it’s the game that’s broken rather than our preconceptions.

But the game is broken, not because we think so but on paper and math it is broken. From the very moment where you make a game without tanks and healers and provide those 2 stats for players to gear. You say other roles will replace the ones missing but there are none. They implement a design where range (safeness) comes in exchange for damage (risk) but at the very end, the system itself has so many flaws that playing this game is like playing Simon so you learn it by hard sooner or later and those safeness is nothing but a waste or burden leaving damage as only choice. And what happens when you balance damage to how close you are but don’t provide some classes of close combat weapons? (see rangers and engineers)

This is the first MMORPG I’ve seen where EVERYONE goes for the same stats… no matter class, race, “role” (if you can mention another than dps); they all go for zerk stat. Do you really think this is a coincidence? The core of the game is bad designed and that is a symptom. You don’t need to be a genius to see it. Another symptom is how much of a slap to the face this game is to players who plays far from the servers or have a bad internet connection… one shot skills, dodge or die design… not very good with an average of 500 latency.

So I don’t think it is a preconception of what an MMO should be, but what it is by definition. You can’t release an RPG and deliver a car racing game because you are innovating. So why are we all playing like if was some kind of MMORPG when it’s actually an MMO action/platform game?

Is not the Trinity simpler? Is this not your natural state? It’s the unspoken truth of MMO players, that you crave cookie cutter roles. The bright lure of min-maxing diminishes your gaming joy in a mad scramble for BIS stats, for DPS. You were made to be pigeonholed. In the end, you will always reject something new.

Apologies to the Joss.

Mesket.5728:

Behellagh.1468:

They designed and built a car. Asking for wings to make it fly or a hull so it can drive on water isn’t going to happen.

That is the problem… they said they were going to make a car without wheels… so we were all expecting some new kind of mobility, some hover system or anything… instead they did what they said… they built a car without wheels and nothing more. A simple car without wheels.

It’s easy to say we will remove the trinity just like that… so hey, whats new? what will replace it? nothing… lot of classes that can do everything. We are single players doing the same next to each other.

This is almost exactly what I expected when Anet stated there would be no trinity.

The first MMO that I ever played was called 12 Sky. There was no holy trinity in that game either. Believe it or not the MMO genre did not solely revolve around the trinity concept. That concept grew deep roots because the big games used the system and the players only knew one way of playing.

It will take time for non trinity based games to grow roots of any kind. If you don’t have the patience for it or any interest in that. So be it. There are hundreds of other games that will suit your tastes.

I am not going to try and sell you on this game and the non trinity system. That would be a supreme waste of my time.

Mesket.5728:

Direksone.3867:

Mesket.5728:

Excalibur.9748:

trinity sucks, especially in ff14.

tired of 1 hour queue times when you’re a DPS using the duty finder.

That’s the problem (and lol look at my sign). After 15 years of MMO I can tell that almost everyone always wants to be full DPS in every game but its because game designers lacks the skill to make other roles (not tanks and healers necessarily) appealing.

Just to think about it… Warhammer Online (even though it had LOTS of bugs and bad things to mention) never had that problem even though it had a party set up of TWO tanks, TWO healers, and two dps…. You never had to wait in that game for a healer or a tank… simply because tanks and healers in that game were amazing classes to role with and people enjoyed playing them.

What if I told you I actually enjoyed playing a Prot Pally in WoW?

Of course you did, thats why I said almost everyone as I did with my healing shaman and tank warrior

Are you going to tell me now that tanks and healers are popular classes in wow? because… the whole 2 spec thing was implemented just to deal with that issue.

Something else happened in WoW that people rarely talk about. The PVE zones could be played in healer specs on WoW you could actually do damage enough to go thru the game normally without a hitch, the devs that didn’t do that in games are the ones to blame for poor designs because if you’re a healer but can’t do quests because your damage spells are nerfed than that’s actually the devs fault not the trinity.

They could easily make this game trinity lite so there’s a choice between a full party of zerkers and an actual well thought out planned party like the old days. It’s not that hard they already have the ground work they just have to fix CC and condition damage.

The game is fine with no trinity – it is not an MMORPG – it’s an action oriented MMO.
Stop treating it like it’s something else.
It’s closer to an FPS than it is to wow – please understand that. It’s a game where positioning and reflex count more than gear and skill rotation.
It is a game for the fast and adaptable.

It does not need a trinity – not a kittene – not a light one – none.
If you want a game that gives you a hard trinity or a light trinity – find that game and play it – simple as that.

Except it has a control scheme straight out of a RPG. If you want to see a proper action control scheme, take a glance at Neverwinter. GW2 is a classic RPG that someone tried to action up half way through, and produced a awkward hybrid.

I dunno if I’d say it’s closer to an FPS more than it leans towards “platform” play.

Mesket.5728:

Behellagh.1468:

Mesket.5728:

Behellagh.1468:

They designed and built a car. Asking for wings to make it fly or a hull so it can drive on water isn’t going to happen.

That is the problem… they said they were going to make a car without wheels… so we were all expecting some new kind of mobility, some hover system or anything… instead they did what they said… they built a car without wheels and nothing more. A simple car without wheels.

It’s easy to say we will remove the trinity just like that… so hey, whats new? what will replace it? nothing… lot of classes that can do everything. We are single players doing the same next to each other.

What’s new is for you the player to learn to adapt to a system where it’s someone else’s job to keep you alive in battle or to keep the critters off your back. It’s about dodging and flanking rather than simple mindless fixed roles. The challenge in dungeons, where you are forced to have a fixed size party, is about strategy of near equals not the super specialized.

The concept of Fighter, MU, Cleric, Thief has been around for 40 years in gaming. Very fixed roles with loads of limitations that niche each of those archetypes game play styles simply because of those limitations. This got propagated into video games, first fantasy RPGs and then FPS games when they introduced classes. It’s ingrained today so much that when a game like GW2 tries to break that mold many consider that it’s the game that’s broken rather than our preconceptions.

But the game is broken, not because we think so but on paper and math it is broken. From the very moment where you make a game without tanks and healers and provide those 2 stats for players to gear. You say other roles will replace the ones missing but there are none. They implement a design where range (safeness) comes in exchange for damage (risk) but at the very end, the system itself has so many flaws that playing this game is like playing Simon so you learn it by hard sooner or later and those safeness is nothing but a waste or burden leaving damage as only choice. And what happens when you balance damage to how close you are but don’t provide some classes of close combat weapons? (see rangers and engineers)

This is the first MMORPG I’ve seen where EVERYONE goes for the same stats… no matter class, race, “role” (if you can mention another than dps); they all go for zerk stat. Do you really think this is a coincidence? The core of the game is bad designed and that is a symptom. You don’t need to be a genius to see it. Another symptom is how much of a slap to the face this game is to players who plays far from the servers or have a bad internet connection… one shot skills, dodge or die design… not very good with an average of 500 latency.

So I don’t think it is a preconception of what an MMO should be, but what it is by definition. You can’t release an RPG and deliver a car racing game because you are innovating. So why are we all playing like if was some kind of MMORPG when it’s actually an MMO action/platform game?

Although i do agree that we need more defined roles, I am completely against the return of the trinity. Wich is a broken mechanic to me too. I think we would find more enjoyment if we get the car to hover and learn how to drive that, then from getting a set of wheels under it ( wich wil fit badly if at all ).

What i am missing is the Heroes system from guildwars1. Some of the more interesting foes implemented into guildwars1 expansions came from the builds that the community made through the use of heroes. There is no such input possible from the community in this game as far as i know. The only input so far is that we can solve about any fight in PvE with Beserker Gear. Now it’s time for the skill development team to counter that. Let’s hope that they find a fun and interesting way for this soon.

It’s pretty difficult to remove aspects of character design that created differences in what various professions brought to the table while maintaining the idea that the professions are different. It’s also extremely difficult to make professions different while also ensuring that the most difficult content in the game can be completed by any combination of professions. In both cases, one goal is the fundamental opposite of the the other.

This difficulty is compounded by trying to make the professions different in a PvP mode while also being relatively balanced when that PvP mode has little in common with the PvE mode offered. ANet has emphasized this latter goal over the others.