Guild Wars 2

no trinity please.

i bought this game because there is no trinity.

krixis.9538:

no trinity please.

i bought this game because there is no trinity.

Then you bought the wrong game because anet already has a trinity.

Lafiel.9372:

Trinity doesn’t solve anything though. Adding a trinity will just dumb down the game even more. The solo lupi warrior video didn’t prove anything but that the player was skilled enough to understand and dodge all the mechanics the boss threw out. Something trinity implemented games probably couldn’t do but in a group of 5, it would be a billion times easy than a group of 5 currently. So what’s your point? add trinity so the game gets dumb downed even more but at least people are forced to group up and worship tanks and healers? or instead, people still have to group up to finish a dungeon but some elites c an choose to solo a dungeon and taking 10x longer.

I disagree with many things anet has done but this is NOT one of them.

Oh btw, the real problem is crappy mob ai and cheap boss mechanics like high HP which is causing people to go the DPS route.

It’s funny to read people say that the holy trinity would dumb down the game when the PvE strategy in Guild Wars 2 is to stack 5 people in berserker gear and dodge red circles on the ground. On the other hand, MMOs with the trinity use it to design extremely varied and interesting boss encounters. For example, in WoW’s Throne of Thunder raid, there isn’t a single boss that will let you zerg it, and while you have tanks holding the boss’ aggro, there’s still tons of things to watch out for everyone. I’m sorry to say it but so far it’s a solid 1-0 for the holy trinity in PvE, it’s just a lot more compelling and fun than whatever design we have in the game right now. (And no it’s NOT damage/support/control). Although to be fair with GW2 I just came back from a 4 months break and I heard that the bosses of the temporary dungeons during my absence were a lot more fun than the ones in the original dungeons.

Now, I’m not really asking for a holy trinity. I would actually prefer if they brought the support and control role in the game instead and work from there since that’s what they promised in the first place. The video does a pretty good job at describing what breaks dungeons and what could be done to bring support and control back in the foreground. There’s also the fact that a lot of people prefer playing support and group-oriented roles, and the control and support roles would be very interesting for those people. I have someone in my guild in another MMO who plays 4 priest healers, and I have another friend who has one tank of every class that can tank in that same MMO (I kind of like tanking as well). How can the PvE be fun to people like them if it’s “go zerk of gtfo”. Support (healing is some form of support) and control (tanking is some form of control) needs to be relevant and helpful.

Dungeons were intended to be the high-end PvE activity, so something is obviously wrong with them when jumping puzzles and achievement grinding are more popular than dungeons in almost every “what activity do you prefer” polls.

Bearhugger.4326:

Lafiel.9372:

Trinity doesn’t solve anything though. Adding a trinity will just dumb down the game even more. The solo lupi warrior video didn’t prove anything but that the player was skilled enough to understand and dodge all the mechanics the boss threw out. Something trinity implemented games probably couldn’t do but in a group of 5, it would be a billion times easy than a group of 5 currently. So what’s your point? add trinity so the game gets dumb downed even more but at least people are forced to group up and worship tanks and healers? or instead, people still have to group up to finish a dungeon but some elites c an choose to solo a dungeon and taking 10x longer.

I disagree with many things anet has done but this is NOT one of them.

Oh btw, the real problem is crappy mob ai and cheap boss mechanics like high HP which is causing people to go the DPS route.

It’s funny to read people say that the holy trinity would dumb down the game when the PvE strategy in Guild Wars 2 is to stack 5 people in berserker gear and dodge red circles on the ground. On the other hand, MMOs with the trinity use it to design extremely varied and interesting boss encounters. For example, in WoW’s Throne of Thunder raid, there isn’t a single boss that will let you zerg it, and while you have tanks holding the boss’ aggro, there’s still tons of things to watch out for everyone. I’m sorry to say it but so far it’s a solid 1-0 for the holy trinity in PvE, it’s just a lot more compelling and fun than whatever design we have in the game right now. (And no it’s NOT damage/support/control). Although to be fair with GW2 I just came back from a 4 months break and I heard that the bosses of the temporary dungeons during my absence were a lot more fun than the ones in the original dungeons.

Now, I’m not really asking for a holy trinity. I would actually prefer if they brought the support and control role in the game instead and work from there since that’s what they promised in the first place. The video does a pretty good job at describing what breaks dungeons and what could be done to bring support and control back in the foreground. There’s also the fact that a lot of people prefer playing support and group-oriented roles, and the control and support roles would be very interesting for those people. I have someone in my guild in another MMO who plays 4 priest healers, and I have another friend who has one tank of every class that can tank in that same MMO (I kind of like tanking as well). How can the PvE be fun to people like them if it’s “go zerk of gtfo”. Support (healing is some form of support) and control (tanking is some form of control) needs to be relevant and helpful.

Dungeons were intended to be the high-end PvE activity, so something is obviously wrong with them when jumping puzzles and achievement grinding are more popular than dungeons in almost every “what activity do you prefer” polls.

Good Job.

Whens Blade & Soul coming out Arena Net. I mean Guild Wars 2 is just a temporary game filled with temporary content to hold that off for NcSoft right?

Trinity —> Group Depth —> Quality Game-Play = Fun.

Support works perfectly fine in dungeons. Damage works perfectly fine in dungeons. It’s control that is broken, thanks to the defiant mechanic. That’s what the guy in the video stated, and I couldn’t have said it better myself.

Silentsins.3726:

Support works perfectly fine in dungeons. Damage works perfectly fine in dungeons. It’s control that is broken, thanks to the defiant mechanic. That’s what the guy in the video stated, and I couldn’t have said it better myself.

If support worked super fine then it would be needed to do fights not people killing the hardest boss in the game in 48 seconds with pure zerkers

Bearhugger.4326:

Lafiel.9372:

Trinity doesn’t solve anything though. Adding a trinity will just dumb down the game even more. The solo lupi warrior video didn’t prove anything but that the player was skilled enough to understand and dodge all the mechanics the boss threw out. Something trinity implemented games probably couldn’t do but in a group of 5, it would be a billion times easy than a group of 5 currently. So what’s your point? add trinity so the game gets dumb downed even more but at least people are forced to group up and worship tanks and healers? or instead, people still have to group up to finish a dungeon but some elites c an choose to solo a dungeon and taking 10x longer.

I disagree with many things anet has done but this is NOT one of them.

Oh btw, the real problem is crappy mob ai and cheap boss mechanics like high HP which is causing people to go the DPS route.

It’s funny to read people say that the holy trinity would dumb down the game when the PvE strategy in Guild Wars 2 is to stack 5 people in berserker gear and dodge red circles on the ground. On the other hand, MMOs with the trinity use it to design extremely varied and interesting boss encounters. For example, in WoW’s Throne of Thunder raid, there isn’t a single boss that will let you zerg it, and while you have tanks holding the boss’ aggro, there’s still tons of things to watch out for everyone. I’m sorry to say it but so far it’s a solid 1-0 for the holy trinity in PvE, it’s just a lot more compelling and fun than whatever design we have in the game right now. (And no it’s NOT damage/support/control). Although to be fair with GW2 I just came back from a 4 months break and I heard that the bosses of the temporary dungeons during my absence were a lot more fun than the ones in the original dungeons.

Now, I’m not really asking for a holy trinity. I would actually prefer if they brought the support and control role in the game instead and work from there since that’s what they promised in the first place. The video does a pretty good job at describing what breaks dungeons and what could be done to bring support and control back in the foreground. There’s also the fact that a lot of people prefer playing support and group-oriented roles, and the control and support roles would be very interesting for those people. I have someone in my guild in another MMO who plays 4 priest healers, and I have another friend who has one tank of every class that can tank in that same MMO (I kind of like tanking as well). How can the PvE be fun to people like them if it’s “go zerk of gtfo”. Support (healing is some form of support) and control (tanking is some form of control) needs to be relevant and helpful.

Dungeons were intended to be the high-end PvE activity, so something is obviously wrong with them when jumping puzzles and achievement grinding are more popular than dungeons in almost every “what activity do you prefer” polls.

What you’re missing out is that it wasn’t the holy trinity which made the dungeon great. It was the “mechanics” of the mobs/bosses which made the dungeon fun (which is the idea i’ve been trying to sell). The boss mechanics needs to be improved, and zerking your way through everything needs to be adjusted. And I have mentioned somewhere above one possible way to do this.

When I say holy trinity dumb things down, I mean it really does dumb things down for 3 of the 5 players (in a 5 man instance). Sure there may still be things to avoid, timings to get used to, but this has to be done by the healer and the tank as well, meaning 2 players have a much heavier responsibility than the other 3 besides from keeping everyone alive. Though tbh, with some of the addons available in wow, playing that game is almost like botting nowadays.

Lafiel.9372:

Bearhugger.4326:

Lafiel.9372:

Trinity doesn’t solve anything though. Adding a trinity will just dumb down the game even more. The solo lupi warrior video didn’t prove anything but that the player was skilled enough to understand and dodge all the mechanics the boss threw out. Something trinity implemented games probably couldn’t do but in a group of 5, it would be a billion times easy than a group of 5 currently. So what’s your point? add trinity so the game gets dumb downed even more but at least people are forced to group up and worship tanks and healers? or instead, people still have to group up to finish a dungeon but some elites c an choose to solo a dungeon and taking 10x longer.

I disagree with many things anet has done but this is NOT one of them.

Oh btw, the real problem is crappy mob ai and cheap boss mechanics like high HP which is causing people to go the DPS route.

It’s funny to read people say that the holy trinity would dumb down the game when the PvE strategy in Guild Wars 2 is to stack 5 people in berserker gear and dodge red circles on the ground. On the other hand, MMOs with the trinity use it to design extremely varied and interesting boss encounters. For example, in WoW’s Throne of Thunder raid, there isn’t a single boss that will let you zerg it, and while you have tanks holding the boss’ aggro, there’s still tons of things to watch out for everyone. I’m sorry to say it but so far it’s a solid 1-0 for the holy trinity in PvE, it’s just a lot more compelling and fun than whatever design we have in the game right now. (And no it’s NOT damage/support/control). Although to be fair with GW2 I just came back from a 4 months break and I heard that the bosses of the temporary dungeons during my absence were a lot more fun than the ones in the original dungeons.

Now, I’m not really asking for a holy trinity. I would actually prefer if they brought the support and control role in the game instead and work from there since that’s what they promised in the first place. The video does a pretty good job at describing what breaks dungeons and what could be done to bring support and control back in the foreground. There’s also the fact that a lot of people prefer playing support and group-oriented roles, and the control and support roles would be very interesting for those people. I have someone in my guild in another MMO who plays 4 priest healers, and I have another friend who has one tank of every class that can tank in that same MMO (I kind of like tanking as well). How can the PvE be fun to people like them if it’s “go zerk of gtfo”. Support (healing is some form of support) and control (tanking is some form of control) needs to be relevant and helpful.

Dungeons were intended to be the high-end PvE activity, so something is obviously wrong with them when jumping puzzles and achievement grinding are more popular than dungeons in almost every “what activity do you prefer” polls.

What you’re missing out is that it wasn’t the holy trinity which made the dungeon great. It was the “mechanics” of the mobs/bosses which made the dungeon fun (which is the idea i’ve been trying to sell). The boss mechanics needs to be improved, and zerking your way through everything needs to be adjusted. And I have mentioned somewhere above one possible way to do this.

When I say holy trinity dumb things down, I mean it really does dumb things down for 3 of the 5 players (in a 5 man instance). Sure there may still be things to avoid, timings to get used to, but this has to be done by the healer and the tank as well, meaning 2 players have a much heavier responsibility than the other 3 besides from keeping everyone alive. Though tbh, with some of the addons available in wow, playing that game is almost like botting nowadays.

Okay lets night have a strict trinity system for 5 mans but lets add a soft trinity support control and damage for raids. Everyones happy including the hardcore players.

Sleuth.7964:

Silentsins.3726:

Support works perfectly fine in dungeons. Damage works perfectly fine in dungeons. It’s control that is broken, thanks to the defiant mechanic. That’s what the guy in the video stated, and I couldn’t have said it better myself.

If support worked super fine then it would be needed to do fights not people killing the hardest boss in the game in 48 seconds with pure zerkers

You think that would actually be possible without shared buffs and heals? I’m not sure why you’re raising a point that has already been addressed both in the video and in the thread.

Lighter.5631:

because cof1 is high end dungeon for you i assume

COF’s was the only Explorables I didn’t 100%… infact I’ve only been in path1 once. I was so bored by it I never came back. But thanks for the laugh! …PM me in game if ya wanna Melee Lupi tho, I’ll be glad to come show ya how wrong your assumptions are.

Infact maybe I’ll PM you next time we need a filler?

There is no group depth with tank/heal/DPS. You either have what you need, or you don’t.

Anyway, the control – support – DPS trio does exist in GW2. The big misconception is that the role you play is based on your gear. Not so: your role is actually based more on your traits and utilities. You can stack boons, heal other party members, and disable enemies all while wearing berserker gear. A lot of people say “its all DPS” but they still bring a mesmer with them to dungeons. The mesmer’s role is various support and control abilities that running 4 warriors does not have.

The complaint people really have isn’t really the lack of roles, but the lack of viable stat distributions.

The stat and role system is fairly free form in this sense, and there are advantages to such a freeform system. You can go with a durable controller, a DPS buffer, or a healing spec if you want. This can work nicely if done well.

Problem: it isn’t done well. With various stat distributions, there are multiple stats that do not show up in the vast majority of equipment loadouts:

A)Condition duration (expertise)
B)Boon Duration (concentration)
C)Stun duration (no specific name)

All 3 of these are central to controlling and/or support builds. You will notice, however, that basic stat distributions with these are strangely absent. Instead, the only support stat we get is healing power, and it is pretty bad as far as stats go. But rather, these things are accomplished through holiday weapons, specific rune set bonuses, and content that is being ever so slowly released in the game.

It should never have been like this. If anet wanted an effective way to spec for control or support, then they should’ve given stat distributions specifically made for control and support.

Part A for the solution is simple: implement stat distributions that grant these things. Stuff like

Expertise/Malice/ Compassion
Precision/Concentration/ Power
Power/Expertise/Toughness
Malice/Expertise/Precision

or whatever. That way, you can get builds that contribute in new an interesting ways, instead of just rolling with full DPS and resorting to other things to support and control.

Part B is to improve PVE enemy tactics, but people have already commented on that one.

Sleuth.7964:

krixis.9538:

no trinity please.

i bought this game because there is no trinity.

Then you bought the wrong game because anet already has a trinity.

well, then you can be happy now, can you ?

Remove defiant. That’s the primary reason the soft trinity doesn’t work as intended. Simply remove it. If people specc control to make bosses into dodgeballs, that should be a perfectly valid build.

Furthermore, many boss attacks should be slightly above the health level of zerker geared players and with a cooldown that’s exactly the time needed to regenerate a dodge. This would give less merit to damage except for the extremely skilled.

Third, conditions have to be buffed by tripling their damage in PVE and dividing their duration by three. This way, condition damage remains approximately the same per character yet allows for more players to stack their conditions.

ITT: people who have no idea what the current best dungeon setup is discussing how it’s so bad…

Although the tried and tested G/3W/M setup is still decent, there are better setups out there. Most decent dungeon guilds have started regularly taking elementalists in their runs because of the superior damage, might stacking and Fury stacking in comparison to warriors. Guardians aren’t needed at all, except for some dungeons, where they just make things easier. Mesmers are pretty bad and unless it’s specifically for lupi, there is little reason to bring them in any dungeon. Oh, and camping Axe/Mace is actually superior DPS than the Axe/Mace + GS rotation. I usually only take a GS when we don’t have an elementalist in the party, or when we’re doing lupi.

Stop pretending you know anything about dungeon speed clearing just because you can do CoF p1 fast with inferior builds.

Not to mention, the trinity hasn’t been a ‘trinity’ for at least 3-4 months. Basically, our team setups usually go something like Guardian, Elementalist, Warrior, DPS, DPS. That can even be an engineer or a Ranger, most good dungeon runners stopped caring about classism 4 months ago. The information just needs to get to the bads and the casuals, which usually takes about 5-6 months.

Bright.9160:

ITT: people who have no idea what the current best dungeon setup is discussing how it’s so bad…

Although the tried and tested G/3W/M setup is still decent, there are better setups out there. Most decent dungeon guilds have started regularly taking elementalists in their runs because of the superior damage, might stacking and Fury stacking in comparison to warriors. Guardians aren’t needed at all, except for some dungeons, where they just make things easier. Mesmers are pretty bad and unless it’s specifically for lupi, there is little reason to bring them in any dungeon. Oh, and camping Axe/Mace is actually superior DPS than the Axe/Mace + GS rotation. I usually only take a GS when we don’t have an elementalist in the party, or when we’re doing lupi.

Stop pretending you know anything about dungeon speed clearing just because you can do CoF p1 fast with inferior builds.

Not to mention, the trinity hasn’t been a ‘trinity’ for at least 3-4 months. Basically, our team setups usually go something like Guardian, Elementalist, Warrior, DPS, DPS. That can even be an engineer or a Ranger, most good dungeon runners stopped caring about classism 4 months ago. The information just needs to get to the bads and the casuals, which usually takes about 5-6 months.

I don’t think this post was about class inferiority or preference (at least I wasn’t fighting for any specific class). It was more about DPS builds being most favorable in any situation since bosses and mobs die before the can dish whatever mechanic they had which leaves support or control type builds kind of useless in some people’s perspective. Good try though, for what it’s worth, I agree with most of the points you’ve said e.g. no prejudice against different classes.

Sleuth.7964:

Anet said they wanted support control and damage right now its purely damage as seen from the video. Just watch it and don’t accuse me of trying to make this game like WoW. WoW isn’t the only game with a trinity Jesus people. I want to play a support ranger but I cant all I can do is put my hearing spring down and no one even cares they just continue to zerg the bosses. That isn’t engaging or fun. Every class should be able to take hits or help team mates. That isn’t a HOLY trinity where its just people clicking on the group tap spamming their heals.

Think of it as a moba where there are bruisers and there are supports.

You’re right, it’s not, but what you’re asking for in your suggestion IS the Holy Trinity.

Holy Trinity is Damage, Agro Control and Healing. What you asked for is, Toughness score causing increased change of the player being attacked. Toughness is damage resistance and you’re adding agro. That’s a Tank. You are then asking for more AoE healing. That’s pretty straight forward. Support isn’t just healing, not even just buffing. It’s also debuffing.

For an idea you should look at the now dead game City of Heroes. It had Damage, Support, Control. One of the best support sets was Darkness. It was good because it disabled the mobs ability to actually hit thing. Mobs can’t hit things, group doesn’t get hurt, no healing needed.

Kal Spiro.9745:

For an idea you should look at the now dead game City of Heroes. It had Damage, Support, Control. One of the best support sets was Darkness. It was good because it disabled the mobs ability to actually hit thing. Mobs can’t hit things, group doesn’t get hurt, no healing needed.

The hilarious thing is, we already have a substantial amount of debuffing available to us… it’s just that they do basically nothing to bosses.

Blaine Tog.8304:

Kal Spiro.9745:

For an idea you should look at the now dead game City of Heroes. It had Damage, Support, Control. One of the best support sets was Darkness. It was good because it disabled the mobs ability to actually hit thing. Mobs can’t hit things, group doesn’t get hurt, no healing needed.

The hilarious thing is, we already have a substantial amount of debuffing available to us… it’s just that they do basically nothing to bosses.

Pretty much yeah. Again CoH helps. Rather than giving bosses and better immunity what they did is made it so that you needed to stack effects for them to work. While a single stun would work on your typical mob it would take two simultaneous stuns to stop a boss. Each level up past boss would require twice the effects of the one previous. So an arch villain, the highest type could only be stopped with eight simultaneous effects.

Unfortunately, I’m pretty sure they would have to change how conditions work in this game for them to be able to implement something like that here. Since control effects stack duration it wouldn’t be possible to implement them simultaneously because the system doesn’t see it that way. The simple choice would be to half the duration, or quarter or eighth, but that wouldn’t answer anything either because the point of that system was to coordinate with other players. If you weren’t coordinated you couldn’t lock them down, period.

Kal Spiro.9745:

Blaine Tog.8304:

Kal Spiro.9745:

For an idea you should look at the now dead game City of Heroes. It had Damage, Support, Control. One of the best support sets was Darkness. It was good because it disabled the mobs ability to actually hit thing. Mobs can’t hit things, group doesn’t get hurt, no healing needed.

The hilarious thing is, we already have a substantial amount of debuffing available to us… it’s just that they do basically nothing to bosses.

Pretty much yeah. Again CoH helps. Rather than giving bosses and better immunity what they did is made it so that you needed to stack effects for them to work. While a single stun would work on your typical mob it would take two simultaneous stuns to stop a boss. Each level up past boss would require twice the effects of the one previous. So an arch villain, the highest type could only be stopped with eight simultaneous effects.

Unfortunately, I’m pretty sure they would have to change how conditions work in this game for them to be able to implement something like that here. Since control effects stack duration it wouldn’t be possible to implement them simultaneously because the system doesn’t see it that way. The simple choice would be to half the duration, or quarter or eighth, but that wouldn’t answer anything either because the point of that system was to coordinate with other players. If you weren’t coordinated you couldn’t lock them down, period.

I like what the video suggested: leave it much like it stands, but have immunity stacks degrade rapidly over time. You couldn’t easily chain-stun a boss, but you COULD have, say, one stun every 10 seconds without having to bring a group of people with as many stun effects as possible just to burn through stacks.

ilr.9675:

Lighter.5631:

because cof1 is high end dungeon for you i assume

COF’s was the only Explorables I didn’t 100%… infact I’ve only been in path1 once. I was so bored by it I never came back. But thanks for the laugh! …PM me in game if ya wanna Melee Lupi tho, I’ll be glad to come show ya how wrong your assumptions are.

Infact maybe I’ll PM you next time we need a filler?

lol, melee lupi? dude i was doing that 6 months ago and i only played this game for 8month max. im surprised that people still think thakittens a huge accomplishment which is laughable. and because one boss = the whole dungeon and because arah3 is totally high end, lol

Nightarch.2943:

Trinity —> Group Depth --> Quality Game-Play = Fun.

If you don’t have any choices (with the Trinity, you HAVE to have a Tank, Healer and DPS), there’s no depth (depth being the amount of choices). It’s just logistical gating.

True depth comes in the encounter design, not the group makeup, where the player(s) has to make choices on how to approach the encounter (do we attack from here, or shall we scout around a bit? What tools do I have to aid the group?), as well as the moment to moment gameplay (do I stun him now thus activating Defiance, or shall I wait in case a team-mate goes down?).

Unfortunately, given the age of Internet walkthroughs, creating depth is a mostly meaningless task, since someone will find the optimal way and everyone will do it this way, thus it only becomes an execution challenge.

You can add roles and responsibilities without adding the Trinity. Just place the roles within the encounters themselves.