Guild Wars 2

You can always retune boss health if they end up dieing too quickly. But you need to fix the road before you can fix the wheel <_<

Cupid.1796:

Thinking about it now… PvE bosses (even when you don’t get your condition damage in) get defeated fairly easily. Wouldn’t removing the cap mean super fast/easy boss battles? I haven’t been to a boss where there hasn’t been atleast 20 players participating.

At present, they would be dying FASTER without the condition spammers (except Vulnerability of course) since the health gain from more players outweighs the pathetically low dps of a conditionless condition build.
In any case, fixing this issue would make the REAL time to kill for the boss be shown, instead of calculating in a bunch of players that are, by mechanics, worthless, and then their health could be balanced properly.

Even then, once/if the bleed cap is removed, if they feel like the bosses are going down too fast due to condition builds doing damage as they should, they can always increase the extra HP they receive by scaling.

In the end CD to DD damaging is imbalanced. Both types should be living up to thier potentials. I agree. Reguardless to how quickly something is downed.

Cupid.1796:

In the end CD to DD damaging is imbalanced. Both types should be living up to thier potentials. I agree. Reguardless to how quickly something is downed.

That’s really what anyone wants.

They just want to have their full contribution count.

^ This should be fixed ASAP. It stops the exploration of character builds.

The problem is that all of those big monsters would need a huge increase in health if every condition build at the event could apply another 25 stacks of bleed. Believe it or not, that really changes the entire battle even if they even it out perfectly. What if there are less players than usual? What if no condition characters show up?

I know it is annoying but every class in the game can deal damage in more than one way at any given time; even if it isn’t as much. I play an elementalist and even though our damage (set up as a slightly tanky build) is dreadful, I don’t think I have ever gotten less than a gold medal in any event that I know I didn’t deserve. That is to say, I have never received a bronze medal and said to myself “what? how did that happen?”.

I guess what I’m trying to say is that this would be a much larger change than most people believe and there are more pressing matters (imho) right now. Such as the elementalist class, necromancer class, and the incredible amount of bugs that are, at the very least, very common in the elementalist class.

Just my two cents. This doesn’t effect me too much so maybe my opinion isn’t all that important.

DaedalusDragon.3754:

The problem is that all of those big monsters would need a huge increase in health if every condition build at the event could apply another 25 stacks of bleed. Believe it or not, that really changes the entire battle even if they even it out perfectly. What if there are less players than usual? What if no condition characters show up?

I know it is annoying but every class in the game can deal damage in more than one way at any given time; even if it isn’t as much. I play an elementalist and even though our damage (set up as a slightly tanky build) is dreadful, I don’t think I have ever gotten less than a gold medal in any event that I know I didn’t deserve. That is to say, I have never received a bronze medal and said to myself “what? how did that happen?”.

I guess what I’m trying to say is that this would be a much larger change than most people believe and there are more pressing matters (imho) right now. Such as the elementalist class, necromancer class, and the incredible amount of bugs that are, at the very least, very common in the elementalist class.

Just my two cents. This doesn’t effect me too much so maybe my opinion isn’t all that important.

If every person had gone DD instead of CD, it would amount to about the same decrease in the time it took to kill the boss as if all the CD characters were actually capable of dealing damage. As it stands, the fastest way to kill the boss is for nearly everyone to be DD since CD is worthless, and the rest be spamming Vulnerability since it’s a force multiplier.
And no, DD builds are NOT viable on everyone. Necromancers have very little DD capability, and ANYONE who is specced for CD will have terrible DD capability, regardless of what weapon they bring.

True they can’t expect a player with a class like Necromancer (where a great portion of their utility skills are CDs) to do DD and still be just as effective as a class such as a warrior.

Does burning and poison add a separate condition for each player?

lyn.4156:

Does burning and poison add a separate condition for each player?

Nope, it just stacks in duration.

I’d rather just have the lowest-damage bleed “rupture” and deal half of its total damage instantly when a new one is added on top.

Cupid.1796:

Thinking about it now… PvE bosses (even when you don’t get your condition damage in) get defeated fairly easily. Wouldn’t removing the cap mean super fast/easy boss battles? I haven’t been to a boss where there hasn’t been atleast 20 players participating.

In that case, we could limit the amount of direct damage a boss could suffer in a – let’s say – 5 second perdiod to 50k, which would be more than 3 times what you currently could dish out with Bleed.

Let’s stay serious: Bosses would go down faster, that’s true, but that’s nothing that can’t be addressed by just increasing their HP. So no problem there.

Aryto.5873:

I cannot speak for necros but running condition/precision builds on both my ranger and warrior, I’ll have to agree to the suggestion that bleeds should be per-person and your UI should reflect only the bleeds you are applying.

If monster difficulty/HP needs to be tuned (boosted) to keep fights a fun challenge, then so be it—at least everyone running condition dmg builds will be putting in their part.

This makes alot more sense. You can’t just buff cond dmg builds in large events, you gata address who’s receiving the dmg to balance it out. Atm, yes cond builds have hard time participating in large scale and champion fights with the limit but for how many people who participate in these events, you would see only condition builds at that point since they could all stack up and melt the enemy away. Maybe give each player their own stacks or remove limit altogether but if that happens, definetly raise the enemy hp and/or defences.

You still wouldn’t go all condition builds since in general condition builds do less damage than direct damage builds

nachtnebel.9168:

You still wouldn’t go all condition builds since in general condition builds do less damage than direct damage builds

Condition builds actually do more damage.

They just do it over time rather than all at once, so Direct Damage builds actually -do-(In damage to health, not potential damage) more damage than a Condition Damage build would in most fights.

Condition Damage only pulls ahead in veeeeeeeeeeeeeery long fights, which we don’t really see many of.

One of the big hooks with GW2 was supposed to be an encouragement to do events as large groups since participating in a group was supposed to behave the same as if you were soloing everything. No EXP cuts for partying, combo abilities, and not worrying about screwing someone over by attacking the same thing…

But when it comes to conditions, they fell far from the mark, in-fact they threw the dart in the opposite direction from the target it appears.

To those who still don’t understand the issue with bleed stacks let me outline something for you.

As it’s already been stated conditions in the only viable spec for Necros at this current time, now with that in mind look at the abilities of the following classes and you may start to see where the problem is intensified.

Rangers, many of their attacks and pets cause bleeding no matter what spec they are.
Mesmers, apply random conditions, including bleeding constantly.
Warriors, again lots of bleeds with their attacks, even a direct damage spec warrior can easily stack bleeds.
Engineer, pistols and grenades dead in conditions and heavy bleeds on both.
Thief, Bleeds… really I shouldn’t even have to list these…

Honestly the only classes that don’t deal in bleeds are Guardian and Elementalist… Elementalist might deal bleeds with air or earth though I haven’t looked at those two attunements much…

That said… stacking conditions should cap per player not hard cap bleeds on a single target.

As it’s been said before the hard cap of 25 is hit instantly in any group fight, meaning that 25 people dealing in conditions are contributing the equivalent of 1 player dealing direct damage. Now, in what universe should the combined effort of 25 players be reduced down to the equivalent of 1 player?

Just goes to show that you can’t balance a million-HP zone boss under a small-scale debuff system. Veterans and higher should have per-player debuffs, the current system is clearly designed around the little guys, aka players, aka PvP, where it works fine.

I’d prefer per-player dots over removed stack caps, because it also allows burn-focused builds to do their damage. 25 stacks of bleeding is plenty for one person, if you’re somehow -maintaining- that much by yourself I feel like that probably needs fixed anyway.

I agree. Im a condition based ele, and i cant do much dmg vs mega bosses (15 people+). The stack limit is stupid, and they get imune to my burn.

Condition damage builds are made for long fights… But that stack limit ruins it

Still hoping for an official response on this matter.

R.I.P my CD Mesmer yesterday. I had to change it since I got tired of getting less reward then other players. Had to change to a spec I find less fun to play, just to get a better medal so I won’t feel I’m doing something useless.

I was a support Conditions Mesmer, threw Glamour field, ressed people all the time while doing some minor damage from my weapon, while my friend just tunnel damaged the boss. (We tested it out in some events)

He got gold, I got bronze. THIS is not fair and should be changed indeed. ):

Give the CD players a buff-cookie!

Remove bleeding cap, add diminishing returns for stacks over 25, problem solved?

Nudal.5310:

Remove bleeding cap, add diminishing returns for stacks over 25, problem solved?

Why diminishing return? There’s no point in having a bleed damage reduction either.

I agree with this, putting a limit on conditions like bleed is wrong. Anet should change this and make condition build viable. I have a necro myself so I know about the necro being rather limited. And I’m guessing players playing other classes like to do that too, putting conditions on mobs.

Nudal.5310:

Remove bleeding cap, add diminishing returns for stacks over 25, problem solved?

Why not add a diminishing return on direct damage? If a target suffers more than 3-3.5k DPS (that’s what 25 stacks of bleeding do if you have a huge amount of +condition damage), you take less damage for the next 5 seconds?

Seriously, that’s just bullkitten. The cap is fine on Vulnerability, but it makes no sense on anything else.

I guess nobody wants to use weapon swap on a necro to make up for the loss in bleed damage? I realize you specced bleed, but if there are too many bleeds on the target, then why sit there and be like “omg I’m doing no bleed damage” spam bleed spam bleed “wow this sucks” spam bleed spam bleed, auto attack, spam bleed. “they need to fix this” spam bleed spam bleed, auto attack.

Why not spam bleed spam bleed, auto attack, spam bleed, weapon switch, dps skills dps skills dps skills, auto attack, weapon swap, spam bleed spam bleed, auto attack, spam bleed, weapon swap…etc..

If some bleeds land and some don’t, so what?

Is it because its more work?

@Draknar
If you are a condition specced necro you don’t do much damage with other weapons than your scepter. For necros it’s not like for most other professions, condition damage is not just an addition, it’s the main source of your damage. If you can’t apply conditions, you do almost no damage.

Necros have no DPS skills at all, at least not if you compare it to what other professions can do. Even if you go full power & crit, our burst and direct damage is still rather low.

I agree with this post.

Although I’m a condition ranger, I just pew pew and get gold

Probably should have mentioned I play a power/crit Necro. Use axe mostly. Staff is my alternate. On Fort Aspenwood I have no problem medaling on world bosses. Must be different on other servers.

Draknar.5748:

Probably should have mentioned I play a power/crit Necro. Use axe mostly. Staff is my alternate. On Fort Aspenwood I have no problem medaling on world bosses. Must be different on other servers.

Ok good, so this thread does not concern you at all as you don’t actually play a condition build.

Noone said Necro’s can’t get a medal with a proper direct damage build and gear, we’re saying they can’t get it as a Condition Necro. Saying that we should be using another weapon set or re-trait is like saying that we should reroll another class if this one is broken.

Has there been any official response to this issue?
I did not see one when I searched the forum.

And…
I have been playing a lot of PvE (party of four (and many more for events)). I re-rolled to a Direct Damage build.

Ulari

There has been no offical response to this issue since beta. I start to doubt they care at all.

Amazed that there is no Anet response to this, it’s quite obviously broken right now.

I couldn’t agree more.

NinjaEd.3946:

This makes alot more sense. You can’t just buff cond dmg builds in large events, you gata address who’s receiving the dmg to balance it out. Atm, yes cond builds have hard time participating in large scale and champion fights with the limit but for how many people who participate in these events, you would see only condition builds at that point…

My head hurts whenever I see such a basic basic form of thinking.

Buffing condition damage? How about the boss would have a buff saying “If more than 10 DD players attack the boss, the 11th will do ZERO damage – please change your build”. That’s exactly what happens and you feel it’s perfectly fine. Why? Because you’ve never ran a cond. build or a necro.

Also, in your amazing display of fine logic, the solution to having a broken DD spec for necros is to nerf their condition spec to the ground to bring it to the same low-damage levels to make them equally bad?? Isn’t it more logical and constructive to remove arbitrary stupid limits like 25 stacks and ALSO look at the useless DD specs to make them attractive as well?

“But but…the boss will die faster!!” So kitten what? They can change thekittenHP of the boss or their mitigation. I bet the boss won’t mind. The 10% or so of the total player base that feel totally USELESS during boss fights sure as hell mind. It’s not about medals, it’s about feeling like a 3rd wheel.

I swear, I see so many of you who believe that the solution to fix a broken car is to use a motorcycle that I loose faith in humanity with every post I read.

Turtlesaur.8796:

Amazed that there is no Anet response to this, it’s quite obviously broken right now.

Yeah like I said in the OP, this really should be top priority..

Necro’s bleeding abilities should do extra damage if their target is at the cap.

Either that or add a special condition called Hemorrhage that would start stacking after Bleed is capped that would do reduced damage, have no cap and reward players as if it did full damage.

Yes this needs to go, WoW used to have a cap too until they realized how stupid and unfair it was. Each bleed stack should be individual and per-player, not global from everyone.

This would give people more options for dealing damage instead of being pigeon holed into direct damage only to avoid the damage cap. I don’t see how people are saying this is overpowered, just think if all the conditioners switched to direct, it would be about the same damage anyways.

I remember WoW with the debuff limit…
But that was fixed in Wow in 2008 or so, right?

Currently I cannot play a condition build in GW… the thought that I am not contributing in combat is just too frustrating. So I’m playing direct damage in the game and trying to keep the issue current on the forums.

Ulari

Still waiting for some response.

There is your answer: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/No-love-for-condition-builds/page/2#post267227

The cap makes sense in a PvP setting, keep it there as I can see full team of condition spammers being extremely OP in a PvP setting but it does jack kitten but screw over condition builds in PvE. Ever wonder why everyone’s stacking fat AoEs for Orr farming? Fast easy contribution, that’s why. Things die so fast bleeds don’t even tick to give condition specs the time to tag/get contribution.

People that think removing the cap will increase the speed in which bosses go down, well duh the players who were previously doing next to nothing are finally getting their damage in. Why is it that only direct damage has no cap based on many are around but the moment two people start stacking bleeds, everyone else loses? Does not make sense at all.

I thought the game was play your way and not yes you can, but if you want to stack bleeds, why don’t you kitten yourself out of rewards while doing so?

I can how a build kind of built around stacking this is made kind of useless by limiting the stacks but somehow the mobs need to be able to put a fight against giant zergs of players. The 25 limit I am sure is to limit the damage on the boss so it doesnt die too easy. If they removed that then they need to add some other buff or something that reduces damage or some way for the boss to take hits so it needs to be there in some form.

The cap doesn’t make sense at all, not even in PvP. It’s as I said in the other thread, if you want a cap on condition damage you also should impelment a cap on direct damage. Bleeding can deal something around 3.5k damage per second, create an equivalent cap for direct damage and I’m fine with a condition damage cap.
/sercasmoff

Even without a condition cap a full team of conditions spammers would still do way less damage than an equal sized team of direact damage dealers. There is currently only one situation in which uncapped conditions might be OP, if multiple necros use Epidemic on two targets to duplicate conditions. If done right, this move could wipe a complete raid within seconds, if you manage to get enough conditions on the first target. But apart from this, there is nothing OP about uncapped damage conditions.

Even if they don’t want to remove the cap, they should at least increase it to 250.

juiceman.2870:

I can how a build kind of built around stacking this is made kind of useless by limiting the stacks but somehow the mobs need to be able to put a fight against giant zergs of players. The 25 limit I am sure is to limit the damage on the boss so it doesnt die too easy. If they removed that then they need to add some other buff or something that reduces damage or some way for the boss to take hits so it needs to be there in some form.

This is like saying it’s okay if for some arbitrary reason if there’s more than three direct damage dealers that the fourth one or even the third one does no damage, or less damage.

It’s dumb.

Thys souldnt increase the stacking, but the system that count howmuch damage every single player deal.

I recall that bleeding DoT increases when might is applied, the pre-existing Bleed conditions have their damage boosted, since Might grands Power and Condition damage.

Then there comes other DoT conditions, Burning and Poison,
and Confusion which damage is boosted by condition damage.
Though none of these three (3) conditions stack for intensity, but duration instead.

Off-topic thought:
About Condition damage, I wonder: What if the condition damage value is used as direct damage source, when ever a condition is inflicted to the target, the value of condition damage is dealt to them, no matter if they already have maxed duration or intensity.

Would give more reason to keep inflicting conditions?
Dunno about propable balance issues, or perhaps only utilize x% of Condition Damage , like damage inflicting conditions do.

This isn’t about wanting extra damage.

It’s about wanting damage that everyone else gets, but we’re screwed out of by no reason.

We don’t want extra damage. We want damage we should have anyway.

Can the limit be increased for bleeds only? Wouldn’t the limit be increased for all conditions? If so, mind you that the likely reason that the current limit is in place is to avoid gross “OPness” when stacking might or whatever (250 stacks of might yayuhz). For consistency’s sake they should raise the limit for all conditions only, not boons. (= for bleed, vuln and confusion)

/signed

I dont understand the people that are against the OPs suggestion.

What is the difference between a burster being able to do their full damage and a DoTer doing their full damage? There shouldnt be one IMO, but currently there is a big difference.

A DoTer should have his own stacks of every DoT he has, poison, bleed and burning. There is no reason it works the way it works.

If a DoTer can do 2k per second with his DoTs its no different than a burster being able to pull off 2k per second. The current DoT system is broken and really needs to be looked at.

If you have say 5 necros, you would actually be better off replacing 3 of them by bursters. Switching DoTs to personal stacks would give the group the same dps with 5 necros as it would have with 2 necros and 3 bursters. It wouldnt skyrocket as some people claim, it would be the same damage but with working DoTs.

And using a DD build is not a viable fix to this issue, some people want to play a DoT build and should be able to do so in every situation. If you can get around the DoT stack limit by switching to a DD spec there is no reason to not allow individual stacks on a boss, because the damage will be equal to that of a DD spec.