Guild Wars 2

I fell that condition damage is a little to powerful the way it is designed in the game today. The reason i fell this way is because players are able to build very tanky builds (dire/rabid armor) and still do amazing sustained damage.

There is not enough condition removal to contend with 1560-1725 damage ( the highest i have been able to get my stacks to tick on my necro and messmer) while there kiting around like crazy and avoiding damage which would be fine if they where not so tanky with 3k armor and 20k-30k hp depending on the class base health pool.

Warriors where nerfed because the den’s said that a class should not be able to do good control/cc and high damage at the same time, which i agree with even though i play a warrior. So i believe that a class should also not be able to be very tanky and also do very high DPS i.e ( 1560-1725) condition ticks.

Currently crit damage builds have to struggle to find a middle ground when looking for traits that provide good survivability and damage because they also have to be mindful of what stat benefit they are going to get from that trait line i.e (crit chance, crit damage and power) and what gear they will wear to increase survivability. That is not the current case with condition damage based builds that can stack vitality, toughness, crit chance along with condition damage as being the major trait on the gear.

Another problem with condition damage builds is that for direct damage builds (physical damage) there is a way to reduce the damage you take by stacking more armor and stacking more vitality allowing you to take more hits while a combination of the two allows you to take more hits and a reduced damage intake of those normal hits but with conditions damage the only way to reduce the damage they do is to stack negative condition duration and have a lot of condition removal. Having a high health pool just means the conditions have to tick longer to deplete your health pool not that it reduces the power of the condition ticks at all.

Negative condition duration is only achievable through runes and food that i know of and grant you i believe a max of 60 or 70% decreases condition up time with no way to get any more in any of the trait lines. While most condition damage builds are able to achieve 100% and above condition up item allowing them to get very high condition stacks on a target and tick for very high damage. Even if you do reduce there damage from 1500-1700 a tick to 1000-1200 a tick by reducing there condition up time on you down to 50 or 60% that is still a lot of damage for a tanky build that is able to take large amounts of damage while still doing continues damage. At least with physical damage there is a break in the damage done due to cc or just running out of melee range but with condition damage and a lot of condition up time you are able to kite and avoid damage while keeping your stacks up on the target doing continues damage over time with no break in damage at all except with they remove the sacks but its rather easy to get them back up there again.

—continued below

So now that i have expressed all my thoughts on what i fell is wrong with condition damage in the game today ill now offer some ways i fell could make it more on pair with physical damage builds.

1) If condition damage builds had to do the same balancing act as physical damage builds do then they would not be able to be super tanky and do great damage as well. So i believe that if condition damage as it is right now where lowered and then make it affected by power, crit change (give conditions a chance to crit) and crit damage along with condition duration then they would have to play the balancing act as well when choosing gear/ traits and find it harder to do very high damage or high survivability at the same time easily.

2) If reworking how condition damage is increased and sustained is to hard then there needs to be a better way to reduce the damage done to you because negative condition duration and condition removal is just not good enough right now to be on pair with the available damage out put of conditions at the moment. So i believe that conditions should not just go though armor and the damage of the ticks should be reduced by the total amount of armor you have like 10% for every 1k armor. That way if you want to be super tanky and stack negative condition duration and condition removal and high armor/vitality then you will be but you will not do high damage. Along with that the tanky condition builds right now will have to drop some of the tankyness to get more damage to over come the reduction of the conditions those reinforcing the balancing act of gear and trait lines.

3) If all of that is just to hard then i suggest that by decreasing the increased condition duration on the trait lines, runes and food’s will drop the condition damage back to where it needs to be in order to make it harder for a player to stack high survivability and high damage at the same time. Also i believe that if you made toughness reduce condition duration instead of just reducing all the increased condition durations gear/buffs that might solve the problem of not having enough kitten to negative condition duration in the game.

Here is the thing, people’s perspective about conditiondamage/survivability is honestly… very wrong.

Having played all classes “exept for ele, cause meh” to 80 doing tpvp/wvw/pve/dungeon, everything there is to do.

now i mostly main my necro and this is what i have seen over the course of many many fights.

Conditions is not the omg op needs nerf that you think it is, is Vit/tough/cond setup strong,… yes, yes it is, however this setup gets demolished by Though/perc/cond setup.
Vit/tough/cond conditionspammers, sacrefice a LOT of dps, not only in crits but sigil procs/trait procs, you name it, they have 0 chance of getting 25 stacks on you.

People just need to learn to counter conditions, take a supportskill that cleanses/redirects whatever, stop trying to be a glasscannon, without any condiremoval and then expect to ram trough the “bunker/condi’s” like butter.

Final note, i have almost as much armor/hp on my powernecro as i would have on my condispec.

Sorry for the rant, but this stuff keeps coming up daily about people who have no clue what they are talking about.

Also you’re really forgetting about PvE. Condition users get the shaft in all things PvE.

In smaller groups two conditions users (using the same conditions) already cut into each others dps by a sizeable amount, and zerkers already do more damage than any condition user. In larger groups, condition users don’t really do much. And versus creatures you either have normal mobs which die before you can stack up all of your conditions (which zerkers will kill faster because they don’t have a “ramp up” period) or a champ/boss while lets you stack up the conditions by yourself, but very limited to the above stipulations, and still a zerker will be doing more consistent damage than you.

Edit: If anything condition damage needs a boost (at least in PvE) and something needs to be done with the cap to make it on par with direct damage builds.

Renquist.9530:

Here is the thing, people’s perspective about conditiondamage/survivability is honestly… very wrong.

Having played all classes “exept for ele, cause meh” to 80 doing tpvp/wvw/pve/dungeon, everything there is to do.

now i mostly main my necro and this is what i have seen over the course of many many fights.

Conditions is not the omg op needs nerf that you think it is, is Vit/tough/cond setup strong,… yes, yes it is, however this setup gets demolished by Though/perc/cond setup.
Vit/tough/cond conditionspammers, sacrefice a LOT of dps, not only in crits but sigil procs/trait procs, you name it, they have 0 chance of getting 25 stacks on you.

People just need to learn to counter conditions, take a supportskill that cleanses/redirects whatever, stop trying to be a glasscannon, without any condiremoval and then expect to ram trough the “bunker/condi’s” like butter.

Final note, i have almost as much armor/hp on my powernecro as i would have on my condispec.

Sorry for the rant, but this stuff keeps coming up daily about people who have no clue what they are talking about.

There is not enough condition removal, negative condition duration or skills to effectively deal with conditions right now. some classes i would say are fine but most are not. i have one of every class at lvl 80 and the ones that have the best condition damage i have tryed both the dire gear build and the rabid gear build and both tear apart other players in the game. ill just stack up my conditions and then wait for them to remove them then pop some sort of cc or stealth and then apply them again and they normally die before they can remove them again. they might remove one of them every now and then but its easy to put them back up. and this is not just my opinion i have talked to many other players that agree with my on this. you sound like one of the players that is just enjoying kiting and killing people in wvw easy so you rant about people that you fell don’t know what there talking about. the game needs more defense against conditions there is just not enough right now. if they would just make toughness also reduce condition duration that would fix everything so we have better kitten to it in game. and by the way you assumed that i run a zerker build and im complaining that i die a lot, well i have never run a zerker build i stick to bunker so when i say conditions are to powerful right now i mean again’s other bunker classes as well.

And at the same time they’re near useless versus NPCs, thus any pve content. So, would that mean they need very heavy buffs?
They should redesign the whole system. Anything less than that will cause balancing issues – as the ones already present.

Well except for the fact that condition damage is significantly weaker than all other damage specs and needs to be heavily buffed…

no, condition is not powerful.
it is because some people just ignore VIT in their build. its that simple.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Well except for the fact that condition damage is significantly weaker than all other damage specs and needs to be heavily buffed…

This is actually a very solid point. Even the strongest condition builds only put out about 3k DPS on average. You take more than that from your typical power build, so what gives? Why are conditions the big evil monster, but power builds that will kill you faster are nothing to worry about?

Conditions OP ?
Probably the reason why so many people don’t want a necro to do a dungeon run…
The OP sounds like a troll.

This is the problem:

PVE = Condition damage is crap. 2/3 conditions only have one stack so only one person can maintain them and it’s a crapshoot for who that person will be. Unless they change the stacking system (Which apparently they aren’t going to do because of server limitations?) they will always be crap.

PVP = Conditions are borderline overpowered.

There are armors out there that can counter dire/rabidarmors but no one ever uses them cause zerker is l33t. I can’t remember the last time someone other than me used magi or valkyries armor.

UGGGHHHH AGAIN WITH THE OP CONDITION HATER THREAD. Can some moderator please merge the threads, there has to be dozens of them. It seems one pops up every week or so.

mons.1386:

Conditions OP ?
Probably the reason why so many people don’t want a necro to do a dungeon run…
The OP sounds like a troll.

I have to be honest, I LOVE my necro and am very good with it, but I’m leveling a guardian simply because I want to do dungeons and people don’t want necros for dungeons. Part of it that conditions spec is underpowered while part of it is that many using necros, and casters in general, don’t know how to use them properly. Dungeon groups will sometimes ask what your profession is or outright say no necros. Or advertise explicitly what classes they want. If necros are so *kitten * OP then why don’t people use them in dungeons?

This statement says it all,

enzo.7182:

There is not enough condition removal, negative condition duration or skills to effectively deal with conditions right now.

It seems you want to stand there and be able to cleanse conditions indefinitely. Why should this be possible? Would you expect to be able to stand there and let a zerker warrior hack at you without taking damage? Of course not, because you understand that damage. Damage is damage, learn to deal with it, dodge your butt off, run away and heal, hide and let conditions expire, but stop trying to nerf an already horribly under powered attack. I run, hide and heal all the time, it’s better, typically faster and much more effective than going down. I don’t take armor damage that way and I’m usually back in the fight faster.

Pandabro.8743:

This is the problem:

PVE = Condition damage is crap. 2/3 conditions only have one stack so only one person can maintain them and it’s a crapshoot for who that person will be. Unless they change the stacking system (Which apparently they aren’t going to do because of server limitations?) they will always be crap.

The stacks are shared up to 25, but a condition spec necro with food can maintain upwards of 20 stacks of bleeding alone when solo. This is only possible against strong foes as it takes time to build that stack. Anything other than solo and condi necro damage goes down because they have to share those stacks with everyone and since pretty much every class causes bleeding this makes a condition build of any profession pretty weak. One on one damage is comparable and I might even say tips in favor of teh condition user. I’d go toe to toe with anyone of any class. In a group, especially a large group, condition speced players are nearly useless. The whole system has to be reworked so groups scale properly regardless of who’s in the group. Now content like dungeons, group composition SHOULD matter, but entire classes should not be excluded due to such a limiting damage system. And according to the notes they’ve lowered Necro DPS even more…sad…

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Game_updates
“For the necromancer, we felt that a few traits and skills were too powerful, while others were lacking in efficacy. We brought down some of the raw damage conditions that the necromancer enjoys, while also maintaining their pressure and sustain elements. The necromancer’s mobility will remain where it is currently, as we want the necromancers to focus on sustaining themselves through the use of death shroud, health siphoning, and slowing down their opponent’s ability to act.”

This, plus the addition of Dire gear, they’re essentially forcing necro’s to become support tanks. Trust me, it doesn’t take much to put down a necro in carrion or rabid gear…even with the huge life pool, the lack of and real armor or toughness means a necro with 31k+ hp can still be easily 1-shot. The change to death shroud just makes us all the more squishy.

Wallace MacBix.2089:

Also you’re really forgetting about PvE. Condition users get the shaft in all things PvE.

Indeed.

Condition damage is not OP. period.

Ashen.2907:

Wallace MacBix.2089:

Also you’re really forgetting about PvE. Condition users get the shaft in all things PvE.

Indeed.

i do agree that condition damage in PVE is a little under powered due to having trouble getting stacks up and your stacks not hitting as hard as a crit/ crit damage/power build. im not even saying that they do to much damage in pvp. my main argument is that there is not enough defense against conditions at the moment. i have tried every class and some are ok due to having weapons that help with condition removal but others are not and there is not enough negative condition duration out there to make an in pact on classes that are able to get 20 stacks of bleeds ticking for 1500 plus poison ticking for 900 plus confusion or burning that tick for 1000 to 1300 O and lets not forget about the five stacks of torment ticking for 5000 when i move and 2000 when im just standing there. so i either stand there and die or run and try to kill you if my condition removal utility’s are on cool down and die then too. that’s ruffly 3000 to 5000 depending on conditions available of continuous damage a tick with the bunker condition user i.e dire gear toughness, vitality, condition damage with condition damage being the highest stat on the gear. i play bunker builds and with all the negitive conditon duration i can get plus condition removal i can get and vitality, toughness i still get dominated by conditions. i have to run and try to hit them and when i do i dont do much damage because i have to wear tanky gear to try and survive against them but im not able to hit them enought to do any reall damage and there able to just stealth/ cc me and run around untill i die form all the conditions. i would not thing it was over powered if the fight was a close fight with two bunker builds fighting each other but condition classes condition bunkers are so strong that even with a group there hard to take down. you should not be able to be very tanky and do good continuous damage on a player in pvp with the other player only gets to hit you every so often even if there hits are a littel stronger but compared to doing 3000 to 5000 for a hit then geting cc and kited for 6 seconds for 3000 to 5000 a second the conditions do the higher damage a second when compared to classes that done get good conditions and are maily melee damage bases. also when you hit me with conditions they go through my armor and tick straight off my health poor with no damage reduction at all and when i hit you i still have to go through your armor which reduces damage even if not very much for though that don’t have high armor but im not talking about them im talking about the bunker condition builds that have high armor and vitality and condition damage. like i have said before this is not just my thoughts but a lot of people i have talked to as well that also play the bunker condition builds and they also say there is a little to powerful against some classes.

Poison ticking for 900? kitten . That requires 8,200 condition damage!

enzo.7182:

Ashen.2907:

Wallace MacBix.2089:

Also you’re really forgetting about PvE. Condition users get the shaft in all things PvE.

Indeed.

i do agree that condition damage in PVE is a little under powered due to having trouble getting stacks up and your stacks not hitting as hard as a crit/ crit damage/power build. im not even saying that they do to much damage in pvp. my main argument is that there is not enough defense against conditions at the moment. i have tried every class and some are ok due to having weapons that help with condition removal but others are not and there is not enough negative condition duration out there to make an in pact on classes that are able to get 20 stacks of bleeds ticking for 1500 plus poison ticking for 900 plus confusion or burning that tick for 1000 to 1300 O and lets not forget about the five stacks of torment ticking for 5000 when i move and 2000 when im just standing there. so i either stand there and die or run and try to kill you if my condition removal utility’s are on cool down and die then too. that’s ruffly 3000 to 5000 depending on conditions available of continuous damage a tick with the bunker condition user i.e dire gear toughness, vitality, condition damage with condition damage being the highest stat on the gear. i play bunker builds and with all the negitive conditon duration i can get plus condition removal i can get and vitality, toughness i still get dominated by conditions. i have to run and try to hit them and when i do i dont do much damage because i have to wear tanky gear to try and survive against them but im not able to hit them enought to do any reall damage and there able to just stealth/ cc me and run around untill i die form all the conditions. i would not thing it was over powered if the fight was a close fight with two bunker builds fighting each other but condition classes condition bunkers are so strong that even with a group there hard to take down. you should not be able to be very tanky and do good continuous damage on a player in pvp with the other player only gets to hit you every so often even if there hits are a littel stronger but compared to doing 3000 to 5000 for a hit then geting cc and kited for 6 seconds for 3000 to 5000 a second the conditions do the higher damage a second when compared to classes that done get good conditions and are maily melee damage bases. also when you hit me with conditions they go through my armor and tick straight off my health poor with no damage reduction at all and when i hit you i still have to go through your armor which reduces damage even if not very much for though that don’t have high armor but im not talking about them im talking about the bunker condition builds that have high armor and vitality and condition damage. like i have said before this is not just my thoughts but a lot of people i have talked to as well that also play the bunker condition builds and they also say there is a little to powerful against some classes.

It sounds as if you are making a fairly solid argument that condition damage needs a better counter in one of the game’s modes.

Just keep in mind that better anti-condition options could mean that condition builds, already among the worst possible options in most of the game, could become all but useless in the entire game.

enzo.7182:

i do agree that condition damage in PVE is a little under powered due to having trouble getting stacks up and your stacks not hitting as hard as a crit/ crit damage/power build. im not even saying that they do to much damage in pvp. my main argument is that there is not enough defense against conditions at the moment.

Are there equivalent defense against physical attacks? I don’t even think a guardian can heal fast enough to mitigate all the physical damage of a direct attack. The whole point of a condition build, especially necro, is to control you so you can’t get to them so they can kill you slowly. They said exactly that in the current rebalance notes. If you increase the ability to always be able to shed conditions, especially CC, you remove the viability of such a build. If I can’t keep you away, I’m dead. Luckily for me, the zerker, glass canon build, is among the most popular in WvW, which makes me extremely effective at controlling enemy zergs. Especially if I’m defending from battlements. If I were to build a warrior, I would make it a zerker glass canon, but I would also understand and accept the fact that I would be useless against an effective condition user…and not whine about it. Again, if you’re not equipped or your build is not able to mitigate the conditions, sometimes it’s simply better to retreat. Not every build will be effective against every build…that’s simply not how it works.

Like I said in a previous post, I’m so disheartened with how under powered my condition necro is in PvE, that I’ve opted to level a new character to give me more grouping options because conditions users are so notoriously under powered that no one wants them in groups. To fix it, for the most part, all they would need to do is increase the stack limit to at least 50 or remove it altogether, ideally. This would not really affect PvP or WvW at all since players are not strong enough to live long enough to build even the 25 stack but it would make condition users much more viable in PvE.

The solution is pretty simple really.

1. Remove the condition cap or at the very least raise it and make it personal
2.Remove the cap on condition duration. It is a stat and I should be able to actually increase it.
3. Introduce Condition Damage/Condition Duration/Precision gear
4. Adjust numbers/conditions on skills so a CD/CD/Pr geared condition player outputs the same dps as a zerker.
5. Conditions are fixed and viable in PvE.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

The solution is pretty simple really.

1. Remove the condition cap or at the very least raise it and make it personal
2.Remove the cap on condition duration. It is a stat and I should be able to actually increase it.
3. Introduce Condition Damage/Condition Duration/Precision gear
4. Adjust numbers/conditions on skills so a CD/CD/Pr geared condition player outputs the same dps as a zerker.
5. Conditions are fixed and viable in PvE.

This would be extremely over powered…and I am a condition necro.

I agree with you on 1. Raise it or make it personal…the shared 25 is useless when every profession/build can apply conditions.

Point 2, is there a cap on duration, or just limited ways to increase it? There are sigils that increases individual condition durations by 10% and another that increases all condition durations by 6%. There is also food which will increase duration by as much as 40%. The way it’s built, you can’t have unlimited duration and still have stacking…this would be God-like.

Point 3…For the gear, how would this be implemented? What would be the limits? Are you suggesting matching runes as well?

Point 4…conditions should not have the same DPS as a zerker. Raw DPS is not their purpose. However I do agree with the essence of this in that You can have as many zerkers in a group all applying damage (AND conditions to the cap) and the DPS just keeps adding up. 50 warriors = 50x times the damage. Once the condition cap is hit, which can typically be done by 3-4 of necros, 2 if they’re fully speced for conditions. I can maintain 16-20 bleeds myself with food. 50 necros = 2 necros condition damage-wise +50x the marginal physical damage necros cause. In any case, 50 condition speced necros might be able to match the damage of what 10-12 warriors maybe? 100 necros, maybe 20 warriors due to the condition cap? The damage doesn’t scale in a balanced fashion.

I don’t agree a necro should be able to take something down as fast a warrior, because they shouldn’t. What I am saying is that 50 necros should be able to take it down 50x faster than 1 necro. Just kitten warriors will currently take it down 50x faster than 1. Currently, this is where there is a horrible imbalance in the professions. Groups do not up scale properly.

Leamas.5803:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

The solution is pretty simple really.

1. Remove the condition cap or at the very least raise it and make it personal
2.Remove the cap on condition duration. It is a stat and I should be able to actually increase it.
3. Introduce Condition Damage/Condition Duration/Precision gear
4. Adjust numbers/conditions on skills so a CD/CD/Pr geared condition player outputs the same dps as a zerker.
5. Conditions are fixed and viable in PvE.

This would be extremely over powered…and I am a condition necro.

I agree with you on 1. Raise it or make it personal…the shared 25 is useless when every profession/build can apply conditions.

Point 2, is there a cap on duration, or just limited ways to increase it? There are sigils that increases individual condition durations by 10% and another that increases all condition durations by 6%. There is also food which will increase duration by as much as 40%. The way it’s built, you can’t have unlimited duration and still have stacking…this would be God-like.

Point 3…For the gear, how would this be implemented? What would be the limits? Are you suggesting matching runes as well?

Point 4…conditions should not have the same DPS as a zerker. Raw DPS is not their purpose. However I do agree with the essence of this in that You can have as many zerkers in a group all applying damage (AND conditions to the cap) and the DPS just keeps adding up. 50 warriors = 50x times the damage. Once the condition cap is hit, which can typically be done by 3-4 of necros, 2 fully speced for conditions. I can maintain 16-20 bleeds myself with food. 50 necros = 2 necros condition damage-wise +50x the marginal physical damage necros cause. In any case, 50 condition speced necros might be able to match the damage of what 10-12 warriors maybe? 100 necros, maybe 20 warriors due to the condition cap? The damage doesn’t scale in a balanced fashion.

I don’t agree a necro should be able to take something down as fast a warrior, because they shouldn’t. What I am saying is that 50 necros should be able to take it down 50x faster than 1 necro. Just kitten warriors will currently take it down 50x faster than 1. Currently, this is where there is a horrible imbalance in the professions. Groups do not up scale properly.

I disagree with your premise. Why should Warriors be able to do more damage than a condition necro? If I spec full condition damage then I should be just as viable as a direct damage person.

Also there is currently a cap on duration of 100%. There are a few traits that ignore this cap (all of them necro traits) but this is why you don’t see anyone using condition duration on their gear. With 30% from traits and 40% from food you are at 70% already. Duration above that is currently mostly wasted since you can get to the bleed cap with only that 70%. non-necros benefit more from more duration since they don’t hit the cap quite as easily. 100% is possible with runes and sigils, not to mention weapons. (No armor exists with condition duration as far as i’m aware)

Also why would it be overpowered? why should my DPS suddenly be reduced because I hit some invisible wall. If I invest gear points into longer conditions then I am losing those points somewhere else. There is still a cap based on gear quality. Crit damage doesn’t have a cap but you still can’t get it higher than ~%120. The same should be true of condition duration. A full condition duration set should be able to get me up to ~150% (numbers can be tweaked) which would give me the maximum possible dps and allow me to reach higher stacks than someone who opts for more defense.

Some skills will need to be tweaked for this to work, but the concept itself doesn’t automatically mean we are OP.

I believe condition specs should be just as viable and diverse as power based specs are. There is no power equivalent to the duration cap, no power equivalent to the condition cap, and no condition equivalent to zerker gear, which is why condition specs are crap compared to power specs.

Pandabro.8743:

This is the problem:

PVE = Condition damage is crap. 2/3 conditions only have one stack so only one person can maintain them and it’s a crapshoot for who that person will be. Unless they change the stacking system (Which apparently they aren’t going to do because of server limitations?) they will always be crap.

PVP = Conditions are borderline overpowered.

This is how it is, PERIOD. They are only OP in PvP, albeit barely. PvE, they are underpowered.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

I disagree with your premise. Why should Warriors be able to do more damage than a condition necro? If I spec full condition damage then I should be just as viable as a direct damage person.

Also there is currently a cap on duration of 100%. There are a few traits that ignore this cap (all of them necro traits) but this is why you don’t see anyone using condition duration on their gear. With 30% from traits and 40% from food you are at 70% already. Duration above that is currently mostly wasted since you can get to the bleed cap with only that 70%. non-necros benefit more from more duration since they don’t hit the cap quite as easily. 100% is possible with runes and sigils, not to mention weapons. (No armor exists with condition duration as far as i’m aware)

Also why would it be overpowered? why should my DPS suddenly be reduced because I hit some invisible wall. If I invest gear points into longer conditions then I am losing those points somewhere else. There is still a cap based on gear quality. Crit damage doesn’t have a cap but you still can’t get it higher than ~%120. The same should be true of condition duration. A full condition duration set should be able to get me up to ~150% (numbers can be tweaked) which would give me the maximum possible dps and allow me to reach higher stacks than someone who opts for more defense.

Some skills will need to be tweaked for this to work, but the concept itself doesn’t automatically mean we are OP.

I believe condition specs should be just as viable and diverse as power based specs are. There is no power equivalent to the duration cap, no power equivalent to the condition cap, and no condition equivalent to zerker gear, which is why condition specs are crap compared to power specs.

I didn’t say warriors should be able to do more damage, but that warriors should be able to deal it faster. Warriors pay a price for their DPS, they typically have to be right next to the mob taking the brunt of the attack where a condition user can sit back and enjoy the show, so to speak, so I’m OK with slower damage. The biggest problem with condition users is that their damage does not stack (Well, not beyond the 25, which is VERY limited) making more than 2 in a group redundant, where power users are completely unlimited. And…typically, condition users cannot use marks, a primary attack for necros, against world bosses nerfing their effectiveness even more.

I think a condition build would be just as viable as a power build if the cap were removed.

See the “problem” they faced before they implemented the cap is that they had large groups of necros roaming around doing the champs and taking them down like nothing. I remember seeing upwards of 80 stacks of bleed. I’m not sure why they considered this problem and decided to nerf it in to the ground, but more players should take a champ down faster. :/

Leamas.5803:

I didn’t say warriors should be able to do more damage, but that warriors should be able to deal it faster. Warriors pay a price for their DPS, they typically have to be right next to the mob taking the brunt of the attack where a condition user can sit back and enjoy the show, so to speak, so I’m OK with slower damage. The biggest problem with condition users is that their damage does not stack (Well, not beyond the 25, which is VERY limited) making more than 2 in a group redundant, where power users are completely unlimited. And…typically, condition users cannot use marks, a primary attack for necros, against world bosses nerfing their effectiveness even more.

But what about condition warriors? The main benefit I have is long lasting bleeds, and able to keep stacks ~18-21 without any condi druation. But my direct attacks still hit like a wet noodle. If you are just looking at the same class, why should a zerker warrior do x2-5 dps as a condi warrior (I’d give a better estimate but I don’t go full Rabid gear so I don’t know how much damage one would be able to do). Plus there is the long start up time to actually start doing full dps, and that only works if your enemy is willing to just stand there for you (which only happens in PvE, where your damage is nerfed because of the caps).

Doesn’t it make sense that under ideal conditions condi damages should do more damage than zerkers?

See the “problem” they faced before they implemented the cap is that they had large groups of necros roaming around doing the champs and taking them down like nothing. I remember seeing upwards of 80 stacks of bleed.

When was this? At least in the last beta the cap was already there (at least I remember it being there). And it was certainly there on -3 day launch.

Doesn’t it make sense that under ideal conditions condi damages should do more damage than zerkers?

No, it does not make any sense at all. Not quite when the condi warrior sits on 3k+ armor and 30k health.

The counter to Condition builds is available to all players. It’s called Vitality and it is available in many different forms.

If you want to run glass cannon, you need to either run with someone who is specced to cleanse you, or come to terms with the fact you are going to lose to the condition spec if you don’t kill them in the initial burst.

Seems balanced to me: Either trade some of your DPS out for vitality or die.

mtpelion.4562:

Seems balanced to me: Either trade some of your DPS out for vitality or die.

Or roll condition and get both.

Wallace MacBix.2089:

When was this? At least in the last beta the cap was already there (at least I remember it being there). And it was certainly there on -3 day launch.

Hmm, I don’t remember, perhaps I’m remembering a short lived bug or something. But I definitely remember seeing it. I want to say it was during Lost Shores, which was horribly buggy right from the get go. Up to that point I had done primarily solo stuff and map exploration, so probably would not have noticed the cap anyway. Perhaps I dreamt it, who the hell knows it was so long ago. Still, doesn’t change the fact that the current system is broken in PvE groups. Realistically, personal caps of 20-25, or uncapped it the only way to fix it.

Master of Timespace.2548:

mtpelion.4562:

Seems balanced to me: Either trade some of your DPS out for vitality or die.

Or roll condition and get both.

And this is why condition DPS should never be as high as direct DPS, at least not against a single target. Max direct DPS is from Berserker’s gear. Max condition DPS is from Dire, Carrion, or Rabid. Berserker’s has no defensive stats, Dire, Carrion, and Rabid do.

That said, condition damage also should not be reduced with 2 or more condi specs attacking the same target.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

That said, condition damage also should not be reduced with 2 or more condi specs attacking the same target.

Right here, this one statement, is by far the one thing that is most broken with condition users. “Play the way I want to play.”, except that I can’t play in PvE groups and groups don’t want me because of my build.

Leamas.5803:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

That said, condition damage also should not be reduced with 2 or more condi specs attacking the same target.

Right here, this one statement, is by far the one thing that is most broken with condition users. “Play the way I want to play.”, except that I can’t play in PvE groups and groups don’t want me because of my build.

This is a cop out. You CAN play however you want…..but how you WANT doesn’t mean it’s guaranteed to be desired by other players. I’m not saying some sort of change or solution doesn’t need to be investigated, but turning this issue into some sort of, “ANET LIED TO ME!!!”, situation is pathetic.

Brother Grimm.5176:

Leamas.5803:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

That said, condition damage also should not be reduced with 2 or more condi specs attacking the same target.

Right here, this one statement, is by far the one thing that is most broken with condition users. “Play the way I want to play.”, except that I can’t play in PvE groups and groups don’t want me because of my build.

This is a cop out. You CAN play however you want…..but how you WANT doesn’t mean it’s guaranteed to be desired by other players. I’m not saying some sort of change or solution doesn’t need to be investigated, but turning this issue into some sort of, “ANET LIED TO ME!!!”, situation is pathetic.

It’s no cop out. Sure, I can play how I want…if I want to be useless. They included classes which were intended to be condition builds, the necro being the prime example, then made it all but useless in groups and made it essentially impossible for condition build to group with each other since such a group would be a waste of time. No such limitations are imposed on power builds. This is not balanced.

Leamas.5803:

Brother Grimm.5176:

Leamas.5803:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

That said, condition damage also should not be reduced with 2 or more condi specs attacking the same target.

Right here, this one statement, is by far the one thing that is most broken with condition users. “Play the way I want to play.”, except that I can’t play in PvE groups and groups don’t want me because of my build.

This is a cop out. You CAN play however you want…..but how you WANT doesn’t mean it’s guaranteed to be desired by other players. I’m not saying some sort of change or solution doesn’t need to be investigated, but turning this issue into some sort of, “ANET LIED TO ME!!!”, situation is pathetic.

It’s no cop out. Sure, I can play how I want…if I want to be useless. They included classes which were intended to be condition builds, the necro being the prime example, then made it all but useless in groups and made it essentially impossible for condition build to group with each other since such a group would be a waste of time. No such limitations are imposed on power builds. This is not balanced.

I’d argue almost any class can be a condition build. The sword and long bow on a warrior. sb and sword (or axe) on a ranger. Ele can do burns in fire and bleeds in earth. So it is more than just making necros useless.

Also the way the stats/condition damage works:

+19 power will increase your damage ever so slightly
+19 condition damage will do absolutely nothing if you use bleeds
and +0.9 sec bleed duration will also do absolutely nothing for your dps

Aside: I don’t know how accurate gw2 calculates precision. While I know +0.5% crit chance won’t show up in the hero menu, does it still factor during damage calculations?

Plus the weapon damage increases mean more in a power/crit build.

5% weapon damage means +5% more total damage for a power build
+5% weapon damage means ~0.X% more total damage for a condition build

Wallace MacBix.2089:

I’d argue almost any class can be a condition build. The sword and long bow on a warrior. sb and sword (or axe) on a ranger. Ele can do burns in fire and bleeds in earth. So it is more than just making necros useless.

Also the way the stats/condition damage works:

+19 power will increase your damage ever so slightly
+19 condition damage will do absolutely nothing if you use bleeds
and +0.9 sec bleed duration will also do absolutely nothing for your dps

Aside: I don’t know how accurate gw2 calculates precision. While I know +0.5% crit chance won’t show up in the hero menu, does it still factor during damage calculations?

Plus the weapon damage increases mean more in a power/crit build.

5% weapon damage means +5% more total damage for a power build
+5% weapon damage means ~0.X% more total damage for a condition build

Indeed, but your condition warrior is just as limited as a condition necro, perhaps moreso since I would guess a necro probably has more survivability. In any case, some classes are obviously intended to be power while others are intended to be condition. A couple, like the engineer, seem to be confused. It’s the imbalance in the builds in a group environment that has to be addressed. A condition build is very powerful solo, so it a power build. But power builds scale up as you add more while condition build are capped and it’s useless to have more than 2. Even 2 will stomp on each other’s damage since a strong condition build can maintain 20 stacks of bleeding alone.

As I said, I’m sick of the perception of being ineffective in group events or dungeons, when in reality I’m very rarely the first one down and often the one resing, so I’m leveling a guardian and may opt to simply retire my necro until this is fixed.

Brother Grimm.5176:

This is a cop out. You CAN play however you want…..but how you WANT doesn’t mean it’s guaranteed to be desired by other players. I’m not saying some sort of change or solution doesn’t need to be investigated, but turning this issue into some sort of, “ANET LIED TO ME!!!”, situation is pathetic.

You know, the more a read this, the more I realize you have no idea what you’re talking about. Condition users are asking is to have the damage systems adjusted so they’re just as effective in groups as power users. There’s really only two ways to do it. Remove the cap or adjust power users so they scale in a similar fashion to condition users. The first option is the easiest of course, the second would require a lot more more and adjustment of much of the game’s more difficult content. This isn’t an issue of “how you WANT doesn’t mean it’s guaranteed to be desired by other players”, it’s an issue of poor design.

Condition Damage should deal damage based on a percentage of health not raw damage as it is now this would make it more balanced and fair to the professions with low health ratings e.g. thief and more effective to professions with high health ratings e.g. necromancer especially when you have a build with low health and almost no if not zero ways to remove conditions or with a complete opposite build this would mean that your level and the condition damage attribute (malice) would increase the percentage as they increase i’m not sure exactly how it would work (i’m not god at math) but i reckon it would make condition damage less brainless and more fun (not calling condition damage users brainless) and would allow the professions guardian and elementalist to be more encouraged to do condition damage builds. Another thing is that poison should reduce healing by 25% not an entire third of healing but should deal damage equivalent to three stacks of bleeding not two.

if however that’s not acceptable then there should some abilities known to ALL profession Arena Net not some that reduces the damage received from conditions and more traits that reduce condition duration for damaging conditions not just the movement snaring conditions allowing a more passive defense against condition and not just raw condition removal or full immunity. BTW the new diamond skin for the elementalist is utterly useless it should be 80% or at least 85% threshold not 90% i mean it’s pretty easy to reduce health below 90% with or without high regular damage attacks.