Guild Wars 2

OK, first of all I ma probably very late with this idea but maybe will be good. As Chris mentioned that Arena Net will do “Revamping all of our existing dungeons” I thought maybe to do something extra to make not so grinding obvious, at the same time to make it in more RPG traditional manner.

I see that post
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/chris-whiteside-on-the-lost-shores-and-beyond/
is a bit old I just hope Arena Net will take this in consideration.

Also, I am not paint artist so my image here is only to give better illustration to what I am trying to describe.

OK, so what we have now as exploration dungeon is that party vote for path to undertake and dungeon open/closes certain paths for them, spawn specific mobs and bosses and players clear the dungeon gaining 60 tokens for the first run on that path. Very nice yet after a while, it becomes always same thing.

In order to make a bit random content I have an idea that all exploration dungeons should be divided into sectors. In attached picture I introduced 3 × 3 sector dungeon. Instead which path players want to undertake, they could vote how challenging they want dungeon to be. What actually they would be voting is easy, medium and heavy challenge while game has for them 3 × 3, 5 × 5 and 9 × 9 sectors dungeon. This will be fair for players to choose for how long they want to spent in dungeon.

Now to explain things (in few messages):

Now to explain things:

• Tokens at the moment players get 60 tokens when complete dungeon. This make players to skip as much as possible of the dungeon and make dungeons even more grind oriented. Instead, it would be achievement oriented by completing certain parts of the dungeon. For example, players will gain 5 tokens for each Tier 1 boss killed in chest after killing him, 10 for Tier 2 and 15 for Tier 3 boss. If players have player in party that is lower lvl than 70 everybody get mail on completing the dungeon explaining that for every such lowbie player they get certain amount of extra tokens – this encourages player to make more alts, spend more time ingame playing alts and abolishing discrimination of low level players.

• Sectors all bottom sectors have 1 dungeon entry point and every time players enter dungeon, game will choose which entry point they take randomly. This will make players never know what will be put in and will disperse a bit routine of a classic dungeon. Lower row sectors have multiple Tier 1 bosses. As (according to the attached “map”) players progress to upper row of sectors player encounter next Tier bosses that are not only harder to kill but have some “tricks” that require tactics to kill. Important part is that players <strong>DO NOT</strong> go trough dungeon straight vertically. Instead, dungeon randomize possible paths for party. This is essential part, because players will be getting random looking dungeon but still a bit familiar. I personally believe this would make players less think “Oh… I did AC gazillion times – boring”. Instead, they will never know how will actually experience look like.

• Treasure is old school RPG style. The attachment I gave is silly but it should give an idea if somewhere in the map treasure is spawned so players can earn money or gear from doing dungeons I think it would be more interesting for players to do dungeons even more. Amount of treasure they gain depends on how many sectors they chose and sectors row. Normally, those treasures should be “guarded” by mobs, traps or jumping puzzles. These treasures should not be mandatory and it should contain in some sectors ( <strong>FEW ACTUALLY<strong>) treasure that is guarded by tricky parts (like lasers in CoE).

• Intersector passages is very important. Before players start dungeon, game should randomly close some of them and players will not be able to open by any means. This looks silly but when players are in such dungeon, it look like different dungeon. This encourages dungeon crawling element (old school again) that is most recognizable if party chose 9 × 9 sector dungeon. Seems that Arena Net already poses this technology – visible after players vote

• Ruin wall in case these sectors are made to be big, further randomization can be made by adding this ruined sections of the dungeon and players could have some passages blocked thus making players to use only certain corridors. Again, Arena Net has this technology.

• Pillar confusion area this is one of the old school features. If players find themselves in large perfectly geometric aligned room with pillars, and they can’t see the ending wall, they tend to be confused and not knowing where to go. Limited visibility can be achieved by smoke or dark and further complicated with shock mob hordes and ground traps. Normally, this would drive players crazy but if there is a big treasure reward at the end – they will say it is ok. Also, since this is MMO, there should be way to skip it. This could be awesome for maps with asura inspired motifs.

• Double teleport and rotation traps are also old school things. The tricky part is – player don’t see it. both technologies Arena Net already have (Mesmer i.e.).

• Dungeon exits as many entrances in bottom sectors row, each top sector should have exit. Some exits should be possible to do by going trough the last boss, some by obtaining an item guarded by the boss.

Some players would like to have dungeon occasionally and will get rewards from going small 3 × 3 dungeon. Others would be more dungeon crawler oriented, will spent a lot of time in dungeon and will choose 9 × 9 dungeon size. In any way, they will get different experience every time they get in and will not know what will it be thus making things interesting not monotonous. Also, if players want all the money then they will try to find every treasure in the dungeon but will look more rewarding since they will have more fun in the dungeon(s) and will “work for it”.

Token accumulation is something very interesting in this case. Here how it works in attached example map:

3 × 3 sector dungeon (probably players will choose this size in most cases)

• 3 Tier 1 boss x 5 tokens = 15 tokens
• 2 Tier 2 boss x 10 tokens = 20 tokens
• 1 Tier 3 boss x 15 tokens = 15 tokens
• Dungeon completion = 10 tokens
• 2 low level players x 1 token x dungeon size (3) = 6 tokens
  TOTAL TOKENS GAINED 15 + 20 + 15 + 10 = 60 (+ 6 in mail if player is 70 and above)

9 × 9 sector dungeon (TAKES LONG TIME TO FINISH!)

• 3 Tier 1 boss x 5 tokens = 15 tokens (bottom sector row)
• 2 Tier 2 boss x 10 tokens = 20 tokens (first next sector row after bottom row)
• 1 Tier 3 boss x 15 tokens x 7 = 105 tokens (7 sector rows till dungeon exit)
• Dungeon completion = 10 tokens
• 2 low level players x 1 token x dungeon size (9) = 6 tokens
  TOTAL TOKENS GAINED 15 + 20 + 105 + 10 = 150 (+ 18 in mail if player is 70 and above)

Maybe formula for tokens on lowbies need to be altered but this is just an example. Also, could be added sector factor to Tier 3 bosses to increase token gain per next Tier 3 boss.

Players: Love it? Hate it?
Arena Net: Interested in this?

Sounds nice but unless they redesign dungeons I’m gonna dislike doing them anyways but mind as well get more tokens so sure.

I just don’t see why these things have to be so ranged attack only why can’t they be designed to let you play your class how you normally do? Why not make dungeons like super long elite group events? That way you can still play the way you did while you played the rest of the game leveling.

No instead I’m using my shortbow on everything….

Dungeons certainly need reworking!
I’m glad that A-net finaly decided to improve them!

A fooly randomized dungeon isn’t such a bad idea, but I’m afraid that it’ll fall in the same trap the existing dungeons fell… They just take to long to complete, and the most basic mobs have tons of health (silver portraits).

I totally suport more randomisation though.

Your idea sound promissing.
If I understand it right a dungeon is randomly generated out of a pool of patterns like Diablo2 maps used to be. A room may look the same but the next corner could be a completly different pattern that it was last time.
I would really like this.

If this technology would be implemented it wouldnt be to hard to add more of those patterns with comming patches to imcrease the diversity even more.

Yes you understood correct. Above all, those who choose 3 × 3 map will not always get random bottom row of sectors. Can be any 3 × 3 sectors from 9 × 9 big grid except boss tiers could lowered to match described 3 × 3 patter. Also, it could be possible to just spawn random bosses on the boss designated locations with according tier so it would randomize dungeon even further – every time players get in they might recognize “boss area” but buss in it will always be different. Depending on environment in which boss is spawned, this can be difficulty factor if that area contains traps or tricky terrain (good example are boss areas from AC in story mode).

I like the different difficulties and randomized maps. ANet has a few people who actually worked on the Diablo series so it wouldn’t be to hard to implement in these concepts.

I like your idea Inkubus!

I’d also love to see an expansion of your idea into some sort of randomized map, endless dungeon implementation. I mean the Fractals are sort of a simplified version of this idea. In fact when I was first reading about the Fractals this is exactly what I thought they were doing.

A dungeon that gets more difficult the deeper you go? Awesome! But it turns out it’s not quite like that. So a future addition of a dungeon that is open to all levels that gets more and more difficult the deeper you go would be incredible.

Maybe at the entry point an NPC examines your party to determine where you should start. Low level characters would start at the beginning and can try and work their way down as far as possible whereas a level 80 party would be given the option to teleport to level 40 of the dungeon or something.

Or it could just tailor the dungeon experience based on party level from the start. Dungeon level 1 for a party of level 10s would be tailored to challenge that level range, but a party of level 80s would have suitable challenge in level 1 for them.

I’m sure all that would be more difficult than the Inkubus’ idea. So maybe a future future addition.. lol.

Kalizaar.4729:

I like your idea Inkubus!

I’d also love to see an expansion of your idea into some sort of randomized map, endless dungeon implementation. I mean the Fractals are sort of a simplified version of this idea. In fact when I was first reading about the Fractals this is exactly what I thought they were doing.

A dungeon that gets more difficult the deeper you go? Awesome! But it turns out it’s not quite like that. So a future addition of a dungeon that is open to all levels that gets more and more difficult the deeper you go would be incredible.

Maybe at the entry point an NPC examines your party to determine where you should start. Low level characters would start at the beginning and can try and work their way down as far as possible whereas a level 80 party would be given the option to teleport to level 40 of the dungeon or something.

Or it could just tailor the dungeon experience based on party level from the start. Dungeon level 1 for a party of level 10s would be tailored to challenge that level range, but a party of level 80s would have suitable challenge in level 1 for them.

I’m sure all that would be more difficult than the Inkubus’ idea. So maybe a future future addition.. lol.

I also thought FotM would be something like this but when I played first time I was like “this is not randomized enough”.

To be honest, my original idea is to have bunch of sectors where game would pick any of them and “design” dungeon randomly. Then I remembered how it can be difficult to implement such things and then I degrade my idea by having constant 9 × 9 sectors with randomly opened passages (that should be in greater number and more detailed than my picture suggests). This is very doable just more time is needed to create such a dungeon(s) and apply rules.

And yes, it should be more difficult as you go. Not only by wiping harder mobs and bosses but there is factor of not knowing which passage is open at the moment. This sounds like no big deal but it is. Players will constantly facing unknown. After some time ANet could apply different AI on upper row sectors and which would more increase difficulty.

As for entry points, I am not sure. There are all kind of players out there. I imagined this as players to vote size of the dungeon before getting in, but it would be good to have another choice on the same voting panel “match dungeon difficulty for our party”. It could work similar to the FotM level except it wouldn’t be visible. Game will keep track of players lvls of difficulty of the dungeon and will choose difficulty also by random value between highest dungeon ranking player and lowest dungeon ranking player to avoid discrimination. So we would have more challenging dungeon for those who want it and “standard” versions for those who want that.

Yeah the lower the number of tiles the easier it is to design. I like your idea of having the multiple entry/exits per tile that can be randomly opened/closed to form different paths. If some tiles were designed properly they could even be rotated and/or mirrored when fit together to give the feeling of even more “randomness”.

I’m personally a fan of both tailored, custom maps and of randomly created maps in games. I’m also a fan of options. Currently GW2 has some good tailored, custom maps and with having a few paths we’re given a few options… sort of. FotM now gives us a little bit of randomness, although very limited.

An idea like this though definitely caters to the random, unknown feeling. You wouldn’t be able to tear me away from this if they implemented it!

Randomized dungeons would be nice. Could also probably be implemented in guild functions where the guild leader could create a random dungeon, put in prizes for the other guild members to find, then host a guild event.

This is joined reply to both Kalizaar.4729 and Kantharr.2308.
Yes I agree that idea of having flexible sectors, their rotation, mirror and dungeon tailoring is awesome but I know it requires a lot of programming. Instead, I described idea that can be made only by designer and scripter without any programming. In other words, programmers have slowest work and a lot of possible traps (in their work) so this is suppose to be used by level designers and scripters with technology that is already present in the game. Maybe later on they could (or should) made dungeon that game is tailoring for the players so every entry would really be unique experience.
Arguably, it could be possible dungeon crawling for MMO.

I like this idea a lot, will make dungeons more fun and allow for better rewards by choosing a harder difficulty /signed

Adding some randomness is good but IMHO to much is not so much.

It appears that your assuming that all the players in the party actually finish the dungeon, which on the 1st encounter many/most will not. It’d be almost impossible to learn proper tactics when the playing field is constantly changing.

Is not your party always different as well?

Maybe have a metric where if the majority of the players in a party have successfully completed the dungeon before then randomize the mob or boss spawn points and placements. Then while the ‘look’ might be the same the experience would be different.

problem with randomized dungeons is you will ALWAYS get some dipstick QQing they want the easy path. Usually with the made up arguement that they have a real life and need to rush. Aka bull

If balanced correctly random dungeons are ace, pity the only stuff so far in GW2 of this nature sure as hell aint balanced.

MaRko.3165:

It appears that your assuming that all the players in the party actually finish the dungeon, which on the 1st encounter many/most will not. It’d be almost impossible to learn proper tactics when the playing field is constantly changing.

Is not your party always different as well?

No, I don’t assume everybody finished the dungeon. I was thinking having an illusion of a new dungeon trough different experience. The whole point is not to remember the path and as such it will undermine feel of grinding trough exploring. As an example, compare how did you felt when you played first time some dungeon and hod did you fell after repeating exact same path for how many times. Even if other members done the dungeon before you, you probably still felt “This all is so new to me, what is tactics now? I better not screw up!”. As a consequence, this bring players to play more carefully and I agree a bit slower and because of that, rewards from dungeons like these must be higher. Also, exploring something new gives more excitement than doing same old thing all over again. If you leveled multiple toons – you probably liked first the most as everything looked so fresh and new.

Lutharr.1035:

problem with randomized dungeons is you will ALWAYS get some dipstick QQing they want the easy path. Usually with the made up arguement that they have a real life and need to rush. Aka bull

QQ people will always be there to QQ. I was thinking, maybe to implement one dungeon at the time and see player’s thoughts and experiences. I really don’t understand them: they usually complain with such idea that something is different, and when something is same they complain it is boring. My best guess for the real reason of QQ people would be fear for being unable to adopt to the new environment and as such that they would be left behind achievements of other players.

Amazing idea Inkubus I would love to explore in your dungeons. Anet should watch this.