Easy fix to reduce WvW zerginess

Easy fix to reduce WvW zerginess

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Posted by: Sablin.8071

Sablin.8071

Dear Anet. I love playing your game. There is many great and positive things about it, and of course things that can be improved, but even those do not deeply affect the game, except for class balance (which is a delicate and fine art that each MMO continually grapples with) and, dare I say, the current structure of WvW.

I am going to put the issue on the table and my solution and then do a bit of a history as to why and how this became an issue.

I have read that Anet has a real issue with ‘zerginess’ of WvW, but this is only part of the problem. It is the effect, not the cause. Zergs don’t necessarily win against a coordinated adversary because WvW is simply not just about defeating opposing players; that is unless they outnumber their opponents overwhelmingly.

The issue with WvW is population and stacking.
This can easily be fixed by introducing a cap on the number of players on each map equal to the smallest total number of players of the three servers. The cap updates every time the score updates so that even a major influx of reinforcements by a server will only benefit them for a very short period of time before their opposition will be able to bring in reinforcements too. Alternatively if a server wants to reduce the amount of forces on a map, they can withdraw forces but will be at a disadvantage before the cap comes in. This management of forces will introduce a new element of strategy to WvW .

Players already in a map who get ‘bumped’ can either be sent to another map with capacity or put into a queue. That might sound unattractive, but fighting against overwhelming odds is even less fun and will ruin the game when sides cannot compete on a roughly even playing field. Im sure you can see from your stats about WvW participation rates.

This solution will make for more even contests which currently do not happen and create a disincentive for people to play WvW. You can put whatever rewards you want in WvW but if it is not fun, it will not hold people. It will also make server stacking less necessary.

My reasoning for this is the history of WvW thus far. Sea of Sorrows dominated Tier 1 for months on end until the recent free server transfers which, combined with general apathy and reduced motivation saw the server decline. Sea of Sorrows had a minor advantage in having a good number of Oceanic players that gave the server better coverage than competitors, even though population was roughly equal among competitors. Jade Quarry realised that the only way to overcome this was to stack their server with coverage across all times zones. Not only did they achieve this but they also obtained a large numerical advantage. They have, in effect, raised the bar of zerging. To counter this some WvW guilds from SoS moved to BlackGate. This pattern of server stacking goes beyond Tier 1 and this ‘strategy’ to win at WvW does not involve playing or skill but stacking. It is terribly lame. When you factor in those who jump on the bandwagon of successful servers, things get out of control.

EDIT: As a clarrification I will explain the concept a bit further.

Lets say you have 3 servers on a map; Server A with 200 players, Server B with 160 players and Server C with 120 players. Upon implementation, at the next score update both Server A and B will be culled to 120 players each. During the next 15 minutes the number of players on each server may vary but never beyond the cap of 120. If a Server drops below 120 then their new cap becomes the cap for the other servers next round. Numbers can reduce until they reach a minimum as set by Anet. An indicator should inform players on the server with the lowest number of players that their server is determining the cap. But wait, numbers only seem to be going down, you might say? True but the server currently used to determine the cap can allow reinforcements to be brought in. This is done by the agreement of all Commanders on the map. A new feature should be introduced for Commanders only where one can request reinforcements to be allowed in from the queue at the next update in multiples of 10. Other Commanders on the map will be notified and asked to support the request. A majority of Commanders need to approve for the reinforcements to arrive. This will enhance the role of Commanders, make them vital for success, and necessitate communication between Commanders. In the above example, the Commanders on Server C decide to bring in up to 50 more players. Server C will have this numerical advantage until scores update again when the cap of both Server A and B will be increased. The cycle then begins anew. If server numbers are equal, the server with the lower number of people queued will become the new ‘standard’.

This not only manages population imbalances but with close to equal resources to cover the whole map it will be counter productive to zerg and require small units and/or improved communication and coordination or all three.

(edited by Sablin.8071)

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Posted by: Dyroth.5063

Dyroth.5063

I’m not a fan of a dynamic population cap like that. Means you spend more time waiting and less time playing. Not really a solid game foundation. Factor in the chance you might get suddenly removed and you just killed WvW. Not to mention bumping would happen indiscriminately so the commander trying to rally up to make progress on the map could go poof while the afk guy and the PvE guy are left untouched.

My thoughts on breaking up zergs are to change how players interact with them and not create new queue mechanics. Things like changing AoE caps, changing/removing down state and rallying, and in an extreme case, buffing people in smaller groups. I think all these would naturally drive players to smaller groups while giving others the option to remain in a larger one if they so choose but at a cost.

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Posted by: GuardianOMS.8067

GuardianOMS.8067

ANet wants people to zerg, hence World vs World. Offering a “fix” is telling them to acknowledge a problem they don’t believe exists.

Sgt Killjoy – “Pedantic” “babe” and “bff” of Saiyr
The devs don’t care about WvW so I’m gonna kill players in PvE!

(edited by GuardianOMS.8067)

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Posted by: kuora.5402

kuora.5402

WvW is not meant to be fair. It’s about overcoming the odds with superior strategy and coordination.

¸ . ø ¤ º ° º ¤ ø . ¸ ¸ . ø ¤ º ° º ¤ ø . ¸
[Aia] Amoria- The guild of pleasant love
¸ . ø ¤ º ° º ¤ ø . ¸ ¸ . ø ¤ º ° º ¤ ø . ¸

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Posted by: illutian.7630

illutian.7630

The only way to remove zergs is to make it one player per server per map. Humans will ALWAYS group up. And will ALWAYS go with the largest group.

The more you limit the player cap…the bigger the zerg group will be. Until, eventually, the zerg groups of each server AVOID each other because its to even a match.

Main: illutian Kade
Server: Borlis Pass
Guild: Midgard Protectorate

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Posted by: Roborovskii.7635

Roborovskii.7635

“This can easily be fixed by introducing a cap on the number of players on each map equal to the smallest total number of players of the three servers.”

Without a buffer, WvW population will effectively be 0 and stay at 0 after it resets. =)

Even with a buffer (of let’s say 20), WvW queues will be frustratingly long if competing server primetimes are not aligned.

Example -
NA Primetime:
Server A (WvW Population: 50 | Queue: 120)
Server B (WvW Population: 30 | Queue: 0)
Server C (WvW Population: 40 | Queue: 0)

Asia Primetime:
Server A (WvW Population: 50 | Queue: 0)
Server B (WvW Population: 70 | Queue: 110)
Server C (WvW Population: 65 | Queue: 0)

EU Primetime:
Server A (WvW Population: 30 | Queue: 0)
Server B (WvW Population: 50 | Queue: 30)
Server C (WvW Population: 50 | Queue: 80)

Although you won’t get as much PvDoor, the massive queues due to disaligned primetimes will cause too much frustration, WvW would end up deader than Orr.

(edited by Roborovskii.7635)

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Posted by: Teamkiller.4315

Teamkiller.4315

Dyroth, why in the world would you want people to gravitate towards smaller groups? WvW is realm vs realm, if you want small battles stick to spvp, or make a camp squad for skirmishing in wvw.

At least in my tier, two opposing zergs spend time trying to find each other, not looking for groups of 4-5 guys to wipe. Those 4-5 guys are usually dealt with by 5-6 of our guys.

Anyways, I know a lot of you feel irritated that you’re beaten by 30 guys all the time and feel “I’m a great player! I have skills, all those people that killed me have no skills, we should really buff smaller groups so those 30 guys get punished and so our 5 guys can farm zergs and show off our skills”. What most people don’t realize is that they’re most likely AVERAGE. That’s a law of statistics. Those guys in the 30 man zerg? There are bad players, there are good players, but mostly they are average players. They don’t need to be punished just because they like strength in numbers".

In direct to the 5 man aoe cap, there’s a 5 man boon sharing cap. You remove the aoe cap, then i will argue for removing the boon sharing cap. You shouldn’t have your cake and eat it too.

Besides, there is no way for smaller groups to actually take defended towers, upgraded towers, keeps, or SMC. There’s just too much siege for 5-6 guys to take on if the structures are actually defended, and last time I checked, it’s those objectives that are worth points.

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Posted by: DonFoe.9604

DonFoe.9604

please refer to the description of WvW before GW2 was released. “WvW is massive unbalanced pvp.” if you dont enjoy that type of game play. well there is an easy fix to your problems. stop playing or learn to counter the “zerg” you are having problems with. its not difficult to find a group of 20-25 people that are in voip and will follow directions good.

all in all, wvw is just fine. the big zergs you girls are crying about is how wvw is designed. if you dont like it, then get the kitten out of wvw.

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Posted by: Mattargul.9235

Mattargul.9235

This doesn’t seem to be about zerging, but population imbalances?

IMO, zerging is: everyone runs in one big clump. Reducing population in WvW of a stacked server doesn’t address that behavior, nor does a stacked server automatically mean “zerg inc”.

Addressing population imbalances is terribly hard if you want it done in a non-coercive way. Sure, ANet could just go in and randomly assign guilds and people to server until numbers in a current tier are balanced. Pretty much everyone would hate that though.

Dances with Leaves – Guardian – Sanctum of Rall (SoR)

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Posted by: eldavo.6054

eldavo.6054

Way too many ways to game a dynamic cap.

Diaverse
Guardian – Commander – Officer of Rethesis [RE] Tarnished Coast

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Posted by: Deadcell.9052

Deadcell.9052

There is nothing wrong with zerging or even mass zerging, its a great tactic when used in a timely strategic manner. Problem is the entire Wv3 experience now revolves around it, its hands down the most effective and efficient strategy which is incredibly boring IMO.

The only solution I see is ANet needs to embrace it and balance the objectives accordingly. What’s needed is to slow the zergs down so objectives cannot be taken so quickly, give time for response teams to show up and counter when they are alerted. Significantly buff up all the objectives so they are much harder to take over making siege weapons almost mandatory, increase the supply needed to build these weapons so members of these huge zergs must contribute to the cause instead of just mindlessly spamming 1 and freeloading all the xp and karma. And also make defending an objective a necessity, if you abandon and leave no defenders the objective will basically rot away making it a breeze for even the smallest groups to take over, but also give incentives to defending by offering player buffs for all of those on the maps, quick example: own 3 towers with at least 5 defenders in each triggers a buff which increases supply by 10 and siege build time by x %, Make it worth spreading people out so those zergs can be better used in a strategic manner.

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Posted by: Dyroth.5063

Dyroth.5063

Dyroth, why in the world would you want people to gravitate towards smaller groups? WvW is realm vs realm, if you want small battles stick to spvp, or make a camp squad for skirmishing in wvw.

At least in my tier, two opposing zergs spend time trying to find each other, not looking for groups of 4-5 guys to wipe. Those 4-5 guys are usually dealt with by 5-6 of our guys.

Anyways, I know a lot of you feel irritated that you’re beaten by 30 guys all the time and feel “I’m a great player! I have skills, all those people that killed me have no skills, we should really buff smaller groups so those 30 guys get punished and so our 5 guys can farm zergs and show off our skills”. What most people don’t realize is that they’re most likely AVERAGE. That’s a law of statistics. Those guys in the 30 man zerg? There are bad players, there are good players, but mostly they are average players. They don’t need to be punished just because they like strength in numbers".

In direct to the 5 man aoe cap, there’s a 5 man boon sharing cap. You remove the aoe cap, then i will argue for removing the boon sharing cap. You shouldn’t have your cake and eat it too.

Besides, there is no way for smaller groups to actually take defended towers, upgraded towers, keeps, or SMC. There’s just too much siege for 5-6 guys to take on if the structures are actually defended, and last time I checked, it’s those objectives that are worth points.

It’s more about taking away strategic advantage from a large zerg. There is nothing wrong with a smaller zerg of say 30 or so people. What is wrong is in higher tiers where a 30 man zerg is a small one. The reward out weighs the disadvantages of joining the 40-60 man group on the map. It just shouldn’t always be the best option to have everyone on the map in one spot and that is what the need to balance out. What I ideally want is people to have to weigh the option of joining up together or running with a smaller more team, and right now the smaller scale teams need some mechanics to help aid in making them a more valuable option.

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Posted by: Catisa.6507

Catisa.6507

It just shouldn’t always be the best option to have everyone on the map in one spot and that is what the need to balance out.

Simple, give them more then one target they need to defend at the same time and they can’t be all in one place at the same time without losing something.

AR

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Posted by: Robin Skyshroud.1863

Robin Skyshroud.1863

Troll:
One way to fix zerginess is to use the word mob instead. This isnt star craft.

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Posted by: Sirendor.1394

Sirendor.1394

WvW is not meant to be fair. It’s about overcoming the odds with superior strategy and coordination.

This is totally off-topic. It isn’t about fairness, and what you say about superior strategy is a complete contradiction to zergs. Zergs are no strategy AT ALL.
How does a zerg work?
- Step 1: Spot a X on the map, indicating a big fight.
- Step 2: Move your character to the X.
- Step 3: Move forward when everyone does, knocking foes off balance.
- Step 4: Retreat cause the other side has prepared a zerg.
- Step 5: Move forward when everyone does…
ETC
ETC

There’s no strategy involved, other than “We’re outmanned, run”, or “We’re 2vs1 lets steamroll them.”
Is that really what Anet wants?

Gandara – Vabbi – Ring of Fire – Fissure of Woe – Vabbi
SPvP as Standalone All is Vain

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Posted by: BBMouse.6510

BBMouse.6510

Smaller group you can play spvp. WvW is about zerg. There is stretagy of course. But the way I see it is whoever has bigger zerg 247 usually wins.

Meaning People from different time zones work together to maintain good zerg 247. Those who usually lost map fast is because thare are certain time gap that people go to work/sleep and little people are playing at that time. Imagine people from Asia are taking your map when you are gone working/sleeping XD.

So WvW is how to get a server guilds from different time zone in the real world to coordiate to each other and keep it (zerg/players) up. Stretagy only matters when all sides have compartive zerg size (or amount of players) to play with.