Guild Wars 2

Take for example that Castlevania video that I posted. The boss you fight is engulfed in red flames, and yells out “BEHOLD!”, and then hits 90% of the room with a wave of flames. It doesn’t require any effort on the part of the player to see what the boss is doing. Even if you are looking the other way, or if the camera bugs out, you still hear him yelling, and you hear the incoming wave of flame. If you’re not out of the way, it is 100% your own fault.

While I’m not really interested in the rest of your post, the game never tells you exactly what’s going to happen in that. Once you learn what the signal means, yeah, sure, but it never comes out and says “WALL OF FLAMES LOOK OUT”. Your contradictory to your own point.

digiowl.9620:

Honestly it seems that everything boils down to ANet making a gimmick (dodge), into the be all end all of PVE combat. I guess it is supposed to be their solution to the “i swing a sword” issue they jabbered about in that video…

It does to me too. I find it funny that here we are almost at the anniversary and the #1 skills are the ones used the most and repeated so we literally are doing the thing they said they didn’t want us to do, even on diverse classes like Ele and engineer it’s very noticeable.

They’re going to have to make some major changes or they’ll be stuck in the past I fear with alot of things. Not just in combat but in how they reward players and the first step I think they’ll have to take is getting rid of DR.

I am also very disappointed in the direction “support” functions are implemented. I like helping out in groups. But, because I never got any loot worth much when I used my heals or other support talents, I stopped doing it.

When in a large group fighting a world boss, I think support should be equal attention for loot drops as the dps/direct damage does.

I do miss healing which I enjoyed in other games. It was not that easy..you really had to pay attention and being a group healer meant you also had to watch your cleanses, buffs and debuffs for the group as well as the heals.

I was so hoping after reading Anet’s idea of support that I would be able to slide into the support role and add my dps along with cc’s and stuff as we rolled through content. I was extremely disappointed that support became Friday’s red-haired step-child and ignored.

lynspottery.6529:

I am also very disappointed in the direction “support” functions are implemented. I like helping out in groups. But, because I never got any loot worth much when I used my heals or other support talents, I stopped doing it.

Yeah, while using Staff on my Elementalist I’m incentivized to cast AoE damage spells instead of support or fields, even though such things would probably be more helpful overall.

bullettohead.9715:

While I’m not really interested in the rest of your post, the game never tells you exactly what’s going to happen in that. Once you learn what the signal means, yeah, sure, but it never comes out and says “WALL OF FLAMES LOOK OUT”. Your contradictory to your own point.

No I’m really not. The game is perfectly clear that the boss is doing something that is more dangerous to what he did before. And on top of that, the wall of flames itself also makes a wooshing sound, to warn the player that it is coming their way.

That is something that is severely lacking with GW2 bosses at the moment. There is hardly a way to tell the moves apart from each other, and to tell when the boss is doing “something”. GW2’s boss attacks also don’t seem to have their own sound effects, which really is a shame. If Lupicus made some kind of summoning sound, before summoning a grub, the fight would be much better for it. Same with the axe that Mossman throws. If Mossman had a sound effect similar to the sound Death makes in Castlevania when throwing a scythe, you’d know EXACTLY when to dodge.

Sound cues are important. Perhaps even more so than visual cues.

Guns and Giblets.9308:

Yeah, while using Staff on my Elementalist I’m incentivized to cast AoE damage spells instead of support or fields, even though such things would probably be more helpful overall.

Same with my necro. I can occasionally drop a well of power to cleanse conditions on allies, but either the boss is spamming conditions so often that it doesn’t make a difference, or my party members pay no attention to it, and run straight out of the well. Or the conditions last so short, that most players ignore it.

I could also drop a spectral wall, but it won’t block or reflect anything, and I never see my allies make use of it to daze the enemy. And combo fields, no one really pays any attention to those. Everyone just spams their attacks, and if one of my marks just happens to be in between, then there is a combo that no one pays attention to.

So I mostly just stick to spamming AOE attacks. Its a shame that so much depth and strategy seems to get lost in what is basically an unbalanced system.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

That is something that is severely lacking with GW2 bosses at the moment. There is hardly a way to tell the moves apart from each other, and to tell when the boss is doing “something”. GW2’s boss attacks also don’t seem to have their own sound effects, which really is a shame. If Lupicus made some kind of summoning sound, before summoning a grub, the fight would be much better for it. Same with the axe that Mossman throws. If Mossman had a sound effect similar to the sound Death makes in Castlevania when throwing a scythe, you’d know EXACTLY when to dodge.

Lupi makes a sort of moaning sound as he makes a very telegraphed, slow, and obvious motion of bringing his green covered hard towards his mouth. He even turns to look at the player he’s about to grub. He leans forward and screams and spits when summoning locusts too. Mossman turns to look the the player he’s about to throw an axe at then lifts his arm and throws the axe. The axe has a wooshing sound as it’s in the air. It’s fast and hard to dodge when he’s invisible but to say there’s no telegraphs is just wrong. Not everything needs to be handed on a silver platter. Letting the player learn something by themselves isn’t a bad thing. If it was, then why even tell the player anything? Just have the game automatically dodge for them so they don’t have to think whatsoever.

And combo fields, no one really pays any attention to those.

HA! So wrong it’s hilarious.

randomfightfan.4091:

Not everything needs to be handed on a silver platter. Letting the player learn something by themselves isn’t a bad thing. If it was, then why even tell the player anything? Just have the game automatically dodge for them so they don’t have to think whatsoever.

You’re missing the point. Players can only learn if they can see what’s happening. They still have to time their dodges them selves, but the game should be clear about what needs dodging. And are you seriously saying anyone sees Mossman’s axe coming? With all those meteorshowers flying around, it would be a darn miracle if I can spot Mossman himself at all. I usually just look for the big orange skullicon, because that is often the only way to spot an enemy among all those effects. The camera POV doesn’t help either in having a good overview of your surroundings.

randomfightfan.4091:

And combo fields, no one really pays any attention to those.

HA! So wrong it’s hilarious.

I have yet to meet any PUG that pays ANY attention to combo fields. Everyone just spams their way through dungeons and Fractals, and it works fine. When I place a combo field, my party is mostly busy firing at the boss, and dodging red circles. Do you think that at any point they stop to line themselves up with my combo field? No one cares.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

randomfightfan.4091:

Not everything needs to be handed on a silver platter. Letting the player learn something by themselves isn’t a bad thing. If it was, then why even tell the player anything? Just have the game automatically dodge for them so they don’t have to think whatsoever.

You’re missing the point. Players can only learn if they can see what’s happening. They still have to time their dodges them selves, but the game should be clear about what needs dodging. And are you seriously saying anyone sees Mossman’s axe coming? With all those meteorshowers flying around, it would be a darn miracle if I can spot Mossman himself at all. I usually just look for the big orange skullicon, because that is often the only way to spot an enemy among all those effects. The camera POV doesn’t help either in having a good overview of your surroundings.

randomfightfan.4091:

And combo fields, no one really pays any attention to those.

HA! So wrong it’s hilarious.

I have yet to meet any PUG that pays ANY attention to combo fields. Everyone just spams their way through dungeons and Fractals, and it works fine. When I place a combo field, my party is mostly busy firing at the boss, and dodging red circles. Do you think that at any point they stop to line themselves up with my combo field? No one cares.

I don’t know how you have problems b/c mossman is one of the easier bosses to see. If you are really having a hard time with particle effects on him I shudder to think how you handle grawl shaman. If the camera PoV is giving you problems, then move your camera. The only time I ever lose sight of where I need to go and of those chasing me is when I’m full out running away. Any other time the camera is doing exactly what I want it to do.

About PUGs and fields, you can’t compare the usefulness of mechanics of a game by comparing them to some of the worst potential players. Proper use of fields seperates the good players from the bad. There isn’t a single good player in this game that doesn’t use fields and to say so just oozes ignorance. With that said I’m pretty sure you’re just not realizing how fields work and are dismissing them as not being used. If you’re shooting away at a boss and there’s a fire field between you and them, you’re using your projectile finishers. If a field is on the other side of the map and not doing anything by itself, then no one’s going to waste time to get slight buffs. If the fields are properly placed, people will use finishers to make the most of them. If anyone has to STOP to go access a field, then guy guy placing the field just isn’t good. A player should never be forced to stop.

If there’s a fire field on a boss, a thief will swap to sbow and cluster bomb it to stack might for everyone in melee range while the warriors will use whirlwind to stack aoe burn. If there’s a time warp, whirlwind will stack aoe confusion, cluster will give everyone chaos armor, projectiles give confusion, and leaps give armor. If there’s a water field, whirls and projectiles won’t do much but blasts and leaps will dish out massive healing and anyone not using those combos are just dumb. Mesmers love to use chaos storm and use their leap back ability to apply another layer of chaos armor. Bomb engis love to drop big ol bomb and their smoke bomb on top of it for aoe stealth.

Ele, guard, necro, engi (ish), mesmer (ish) and ranger all set up mass fields. It is their job to set the team up for big things. Thief, warrior, and engi (ish) all make the most of the fields and strengthen the team. EVERYBODY uses fields and finishers. The only class that can be useful by itself is when a group of warriors stack up and drop the banner blast finishers on the fire field from long bow f1.

tldr ~ I’m certain you’re just not realizing that other people are using finishers just because you don’t recognize it yet. Just because you aren’t really noticing what’s going on doesn’t mean it’s not happening.

Mad you are wasting your time replying to these guys. You have gone over your point in detail several times explaining that properly telegraphing attacks is important to developing a stratgey to a boss.
I’d be surprised if anyone here worked out dodging grubs on Lupi. I’ve only run with the guild before so we’ve always foguht at range and killed them before they could reach him. In fact I wouldn’t be surprised if Anet never even intended for you to dodge them.
As queen said, you shouldn’t be able to beat a boss on your first go but you should be able to work out what killed you, how it did it, and in hindsight be able to work out how to avoid it.
Since your naysayers just keep retreading the same ground over and over hoping you’ll deviate from your stance so they can pick holes in it I’d just agree to disagree at this point.

Why to i get the impression that ANet tuned the AV clues for mobs around people playing with headphones and volume set to 11?

With speakers i care barely hear the endurance ping out of combat for instance. But i recall reading about someone that almost fell out of his chair, the first time he played with headphones and the ping happened mid combat.

Kaaboose.3897:

Mad you are wasting your time replying to these guys. You have gone over your point in detail several times explaining that properly telegraphing attacks is important to developing a stratgey to a boss.
I’d be surprised if anyone here worked out dodging grubs on Lupi.

You may not like listening to me but I actually know what I’m talking about here. If there weren’t cues or ways to avoid things I’d agree that something needs to be done. Unwillingness to learn is not an excuse to make the already big wind up shots have even more telegraphed wind up shots.

Question is, learn during actual play or learn by studying hours and hours of other people playing?

digiowl.9620:

Question is, learn during actual play or learn by studying hours and hours of other people playing?

Everything I learned about this game was from in game whether it was from watching the mechanics or other players giving me advice in fights that I’ve never done before. The only thing I learnt from watching other play was dodging Lupi grubs. I had known he did a seemingly useless skill (the hand thing) but when I watched Weth solo and him dodging seemingly randomly (at first) and getting “evaded”, I put 2 and 2 together before phase 1 was finished. It took about another 1 minute of testing in game to figure out exactly when you’re supposed to dodge correctly. All the information is there, it does take some practice figuring out how to see them though.

randomfightfan.4091:

All the information is there, it does take some practice figuring out how to see them though.

And you seriously believe that making them easier to see is not an improvement to the boss?

randomfightfan.4091:

If the camera PoV is giving you problems, then move your camera.

I can’t, that’s the problem! The darn thing can’t zoom out to a proper distance to get a good view of the room. And the POV is so cramped that half the environment is cut from the camera lens. I’ve said it before, GW2’s camera is rubbish. And it doesn’t help that the annoying thing bounces right in for a close up every time a small object gets in between you and the camera, and then zooms right out again, and back, and forth.

randomfightfan.4091:

About PUGs and fields, you can’t compare the usefulness of mechanics of a game by comparing them to some of the worst potential players.

But you can judge their usefulness based on how important they are in combat. Does the game require you to use them? Never.

randomfightfan.4091:

There isn’t a single good player in this game that doesn’t use fields and to say so just oozes ignorance.

Yes, by accident! They accidentally hit combo fields, because players spam them all over the room. That is not the same as actually making use of combo fields.

randomfightfan.4091:

With that said I’m pretty sure you’re just not realizing how fields work and are dismissing them as not being used. If you’re shooting away at a boss and there’s a fire field between you and them, you’re using your projectile finishers.

And then you are using the combo field by accident. What you’re really just trying to do is hit the boss, and the fact that your projectiles go through a fire field is simply an accident that you most of the time don’t even notice, nor specifically set out to do.

THIS is what most boss fights in GW2 look like:

Do you think anyone is paying attention to what the boss is doing (which is impossible to see) or what combo fields are being used? This is how everyone plays in PVE.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Yes, by accident! They accidentally hit combo fields, because players spam them all over the room. That is not the same as actually making use of combo fields.

It’s funny how you keep projecting your own lack of skill to every other player in the game.

In my guild teams, we use combo fields plenty. Mostly water fields though. Especially if we have 2 guardians and an ele for example in Fractals. The elementalists will very often communicate over TS ‘water field going down’, so we can all spam our blast finishers for area heals. We’ve had Mossman and Fire Shaman battles where this made the difference between dead people and live people. It’s easy to throw up 3-4 blast finishers in a water field if you’re prepared for it, which is enough to get someone from 20% health to almost full.

Although, when I see a lightning field or a fire field going down, I often use my leap or blast finishers as well.

You being bad =/= us being bad.

I will concede though that combo fields need a buff, because right now they’re just not really that viable. Water fields are nice, and we use them a lot, but the others are just so useless outside of some very niche situations.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

THIS is what most boss fights in GW2 look like:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMm2a_ajXBs

Wait, you’re complaining Subject Alpha has bad telegraphs? You get a room full of red circles and 2 seconds to dodge? What more do you want? Alpha screaming “Oi, fellows! Ima be using my AoE attacks in a moment. Start mentally preparing to dodge, okay? Otherwise I might hurt you guys, kthx!” You absolutely don’t need any visual of Alpha to know what the hell is going on in that fight. I can’t imagine a worse example you could’ve picked.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Do you think anyone is paying attention to what the boss is doing (which is impossible to see) or what combo fields are being used? This is how everyone plays in PVE.

First things first: I agree particle effects need to have an option to be toned down. Especially Virtue of Justice. It’s just annoying how much visual that one takes away from an enemy.

On to my point: so what you’re actually saying is: “Well, most PvE players are bad and refuse to improve. So, I want Anet to make everything easier, because you know, it might be too much to ask for a player to actually pay attention to what the hell is going on.”

Players in GW2 are bad enough as it is. I hated PUGing in GW1, I dread PUGing in GW2. Just because this game rewards people for being lazy and not improving all the time. The content is easily beatable by a team of blind chimpanzees, meaning that players get no incentive to improve their gameplay and stay bad. The hand holding in this game is annoying enough as it is. Making it even worse isn’t going to help anyone.

Bright, stop calling queen bad because she is right on the money in her description of most of the GW2 playerbase. You attest to this in your previous post. Also Queen did not link that video as an example of poorly telegrpahed attacks but as an example of the current state of GW2 combat. I must ask, why are you so deadset againt better visual/audio tells on boss attacks?
If poor boss telegraphing is the only thing making GW2 challenging and giving bosses better visual and audio tells would remove the challenge, then what you are saying is that YOU are a bad player too.
You’re saying the only thing that’s making you a better player then the ‘blind chimpanzees’ is that you can spot these small tells. Or even worse you’ve memorised boss patterns and timing. Once again, you are just defending poor game design because it adds more ‘challenge’ but any gamer worth their salt wants to be challenged by the game, not by shoddy controls, camerawork or glitches (design).
I would LOVE for GW2 to be more challenging and it’s a primary focus of the video. But before Anet can add some interesting and challenging mehcanics they need to fix the basic problems with their system.
These problems at the basic design levels of GW2 need to be fixed before you can hope for any real challenge.
Did you ever stop to think that the reason most of GW2 is mindnumbingly easy is because then players will forgive the crappy targeting system, lack of boss tells and no Trinity?
That is why I belive we aren’t seeing challenging team based combat in GW2, as I said in the video, because Anet just does not know how within the limits of their current flawed system.

Bright.9160:

I will concede though that combo fields need a buff, because right now they’re just not really that viable. Water fields are nice, and we use them a lot, but the others are just so useless outside of some very niche situations.

Not only are they bad, but there is not really any requirement to use them. As Kaboose pointed out, none of the content really challenges the players to make use of these mechanics. The design encourages a zerg mentality.

Bright.9160:

Wait, you’re complaining Subject Alpha has bad telegraphs? You get a room full of red circles and 2 seconds to dodge?

Would you be able to see what Subject Alpha was doing if the circles weren’t there? Can you see him doing any animation? Can you hear what attack he’s about to do? Cause all I see is a ton of red circles. Subject Alpha spams those all over the room none stop, and there’s no way to tell the different attacks apart. Which red circle means instant death? Which red circle means minor injury? I’m not saying Subject Alpha has bad telegraphs. I’m saying he has NO telegraphs. Not to mention his one instant-down attack that doesn’t even have red circles at all. The red circles are a band-aid to a glaring lack of clear visibility in the game’s combat system.

But what I really wanted to illustrate is simply what GW2’s combat looks like. You can simply not see anything at all of what’s going on in that fight. It’s a big mess of visual overkill. And the only way they knew to make the players see anything coming at all, was to make the area of effect even more of a visual overkill. But that really isn’t addressing the issue: Missing unique animations, missing audio cues, and poor visibility due to the many effects overlapping.

Bright.9160:

On to my point: so what you’re actually saying is: “Well, most PvE players are bad and refuse to improve. So, I want Anet to make everything easier, because you know, it might be too much to ask for a player to actually pay attention to what the hell is going on.”

If you keep strawmanning people’s arguments, and pretending their valid criticism is nothing but a cry to make the game easier, then you haven’t been paying any attention.

Pure gold. I wish they could start separating PvE from other aspects of the game more and more.
I can’t say how much I miss my lotro classes. Yes, it was a trinity game (and finding that tank was a true pain) but the classes I played weren’t tanks, nor healers or dpsers. I was playing the two supporters that had a nice mix of everything and could build for different roles. Something I expected to find in GW2 but sadly, didn’t.

Nice video OP,i completely agree that control needs to have a stronger pressence in Gw2 that alone will bring the weaker dps classes in par with the stronger ones.

Fully agree with the OP. The fact that control is useless in boss fights can be VERY hindering to complex and nice game play. That and the fact that condition builds are also useless when compared to damage makes the dungeons and PvE in the game even more of “I NEED MORE DMGS!”.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

THIS is what most boss fights in GW2 look like:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMm2a_ajXBs

Do you think anyone is paying attention to what the boss is doing (which is impossible to see) or what combo fields are being used? This is how everyone plays in PVE.

If that’s you playing that engi then no wonder you have problems. That person had no idea how to use a camera to see. Move it so you’re looking top down not up your skirt and you won’t have any problems seeing.

First things first: I agree particle effects need to have an option to be toned down. Especially Virtue of Justice. It’s just annoying how much visual that one takes away from an enemy.

100% agree. That skill blinds players

Subject Alpha spams those all over the room none stop, and there’s no way to tell the different attacks apart. Which red circle means instant death? Which red circle means minor injury?

small single reds – insta death, this is telegraphed by a loud reaper scream

double circle, no mist in center – no damage inside, big damage outer circle, this is telegraphed by a sound that sounds like a bag of ice dropping

double circle, mist in center – insta death inner circle, no damage outer circle, this is telegraphed by a sound that sounds like a bag of ice dropping

line spikes is always medium damage, has an obvious audio cue of something falling or something

Not to mention his one instant-down attack that doesn’t even have red circles at all.

He doesn’t have one. You’re either getting dropped very slowly from his burning attack or from one of the tendrils that he spawns. Both of them have very big and obvious wind up attacks as long as you’re paying attention.

watch that and you’ll get a good look at what alpha can do and how to avoid each attack.

and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDtXMDqPbQA as a random vid of mine in a team setting, where I never have problems with the camera (except the 1 at the very beginning but that was basically an akitten moment). Also, 90% of what was done in that video was significantly aided by fields. Mostly smoke, dark, water, and fire field (since they are the best along with ethereal) but the other fields do have their uses. At the very beginning of the video I used water field for mass aoe healing then a light field to remove conditions. Most players probably don’t use those fields but most of those players could never even do fractals 48 either.

Kaboose, I usually agree with you, and I like your videos, but gotta break you down this time.

Kaaboose.3897:

Bright, stop calling queen bad because she is right on the money in her description of most of the GW2 playerbase.

I agree, the playerbase has no idea how to play the game. Making bosses even easier is not going to improve that.

Kaaboose.3897:

You attest to this in your previous post. Also Queen did not link that video as an example of poorly telegrpahed attacks but as an example of the current state of GW2 combat. I must ask, why are you so deadset againt better visual/audio tells on boss attacks?

Because I think the game is a complete joke at the moment when it comes to challenge. I 3manned Arah p3 yesterday, me and another guy had never done it with less than 5 people. The other guy had done it once or twice. We still cleared that path faster than most PUGs can do it.

Not to mention (s)he has stated in multiple posts that (s)he considers lupi to have bad tells. Right now, Lupi is one of the only 2 bosses in this entire game (together with Grawl Shaman) that are remotely fun and challenging. It’s an easy-ish fight for the good players and it’s a hellish fight for the bad players that don’t learn.

(S)he even proceeded to go ahead and say that his tells are bad. What game is (s)he playing? His grub move has a 2.5sec chargeup. He prepares for his kick pretty clearly. His swipe move in phase 2 is easy to dodge as well, and has a big windup as well. His AoE attack is short-ish, but long enough to react if your reflexes don’t suck. Etc.

I just get my jimmies rustled when people want to make my favorite boss in the game -one of the sole reasons I even bother doing Arah by the way- easier because bad players struggle with him. All because the bad players refuse to improve and pay attention.

Kaaboose.3897:

If poor boss telegraphing is the only thing making GW2 challenging and giving bosses better visual and audio tells would remove the challenge, then what you are saying is that YOU are a bad player too.

I’m not saying the boss animations make the game more challenging, I’m saying most of them are just fine as it is. I have to admit, there are flawed bosses, like Mossman could have kitten longer chargeup for his axe throw, that CM boss could use an animation (although I did CM story yesterday for the first time and the boss was dead before he could even use that attack), and some other things I’m missing could use some better wind ups.

But Malifide’s problems with boss telegraphs could all be solved a lot easier if: particle effects get toned down (or they give an option to do it) and if the UI had better customization.

Kaaboose.3897:

Once again, you are just defending poor game design because it adds more ‘challenge’ but any gamer worth their salt wants to be challenged by the game, not by shoddy controls, camerawork or glitches (design).

And how is a boss giving super obvious tells on his moves any more challenging than what we have now? Because the way I see it, it’s only dumbing down the game even more.

Kaaboose.3897:

I would LOVE for GW2 to be more challenging and it’s a primary focus of the video. But before Anet can add some interesting and challenging mehcanics they need to fix the basic problems with their system.

Kaaboose.3897:

These problems at the basic design levels of GW2 need to be fixed before you can hope for any real challenge.

Not really. Currently, it’s the only challenge there is. The only reason I get downed at lupi is because bad reaction timing. I barely ever get downed in any of the other bosses in Arah, because they either have really good tells (Wraithlord’s Crusher) or because they don’t have a single threatening attack (Magecrusher).

Kaaboose.3897:

That is why I belive we aren’t seeing challenging team based combat in GW2, as I said in the video, because Anet just does not know how within the limits of their current flawed system.

There are a lot of flaws in the system, but bad telegraphs is not a major one of them.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Bright.9160:

Wait, you’re complaining Subject Alpha has bad telegraphs? You get a room full of red circles and 2 seconds to dodge?

Would you be able to see what Subject Alpha was doing if the circles weren’t there? Can you see him doing any animation? Can you hear what attack he’s about to do? Cause all I see is a ton of red circles. Subject Alpha spams those all over the room none stop, and there’s no way to tell the different attacks apart. Which red circle means instant death? Which red circle means minor injury? I’m not saying Subject Alpha has bad telegraphs. I’m saying he has NO telegraphs. Not to mention his one instant-down attack that doesn’t even have red circles at all. The red circles are a band-aid to a glaring lack of clear visibility in the game’s combat system.

First of all, you’re complaining about bad telegraphs on a boss where telegraphs don’t matter. At all. He could be dancing around in a pink tutu and spawning red circles around the room. He could be jacking it to scat porn and spawn red circles. It wouldn’t make a difference to his fight. Your entire example is just redundant. Why the hell would Subject Alpha need telegraphs?

Secondly, you have more than enough endurance to dodge all of his attacks if you time it right. Oh right, but that takes skill. And that’s throwing you a bone, because honestly, it doesn’t take any skill, it just takes someone who isn’t absolutely terrible.

I’m not going to go into detail of which circles to dodge, because random already covered it pretty well.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

But what I really wanted to illustrate is simply what GW2’s combat looks like. You can simply not see anything at all of what’s going on in that fight. It’s a big mess of visual overkill. And the only way they knew to make the players see anything coming at all, was to make the area of effect even more of a visual overkill. But that really isn’t addressing the issue: Missing unique animations, missing audio cues, and poor visibility due to the many effects overlapping.

Again, all your issues can be solved by diminishing particle effects. There is no need to make the game any easier than it is already.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

If you keep strawmanning people’s arguments, and pretending their valid criticism is nothing but a cry to make the game easier, then you haven’t been paying any attention.

Oh, i have been paying attention. And although you are correct that I’m strawmanning your arguments, I am doing it because I think they’re (almost) all bad and stem from lazyness.

Bright.9160:

SNIP! (Sorry!)

We’re just going to have to agree to disagree then Bright because you just keep defending the base things that I disagree with in GW2.
The whole reason i want the trinity fixed is so that Anet can start designing fights that REQUIRE 5 players to work together to compelte rather then having the other 4 players as a crutch. It just does not promote teamwork in any way shape or form (Unless you count bragging rights) to have a boss soloable in a group setting.
I’m not asking for a big kitten red circle to apear or even a “Dodge in X seconds” or “This attack will come off cooldown in…” message a la DBM in WoW (kitten I HATED THAT kitten!) I’m just asking for an audio cue or something that doesn’t require me to be 100% focused on the bosses animations.
Once again, You can forgive this in the current system becuase hey, Why would you need to pay attenion to what your team is doing if you can solo the encounter? If they die it’s their fault and you can just solo the boss to show em how it’s done so they get better right?
Don’t you see what is wrong with that? If the encounters DID require you to keep tabs on your teams movements and well being THEN I’m sure you’d be less forgiving for the crappy tells the bosses give.
You confrim all this for me in your reply to Queen on Alpha’s attacks not being threatening.
This is why I believe giving the bosses better tells will lead to more challenging gameplay. The only reason I think you don’t put bad tells into a ‘Major Problem category’ is because you can’t see the problems they will cause if Anet makes other aspects of GW2 combat, such as support and control more involved and challenging.
Besides what on earth is wrong with a bit of audio? As I said it not only makes key attacks easier to anticipate (Even if the cue only gives you 1/2 a seconds warning, or even none with a ranged attack) but it adds to ‘feel’ of the encounter.
Who remembers the charge up attack from dark gia in terrinigma? The massive attacks from ANY boss in the Riaden games? Contra? SMB? DKC?
Or, for something more recent Bayonetta?
Attacks were well telegraphed and had obvious audio cues but did that make them feel any less threatening?

Kaaboose.3897:

Once again, You can forgive this in the current system becuase hey, Why would you need to pay attenion to what your team is doing if you can solo the encounter? If they die it’s their fault and you can just solo the boss to show em how it’s done so they get better right?

To be completely fair, the vast majority of players can’t solo these encounters. I’d say maybe .001% of the player base can solo any dungeon boss without a heap load of luck on their side. Just because there are some players that can do so isn’t a bad thing imo. I still know of teams that die to Lupi on phase 1 consistently.

hi, just have look to my thread :

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/Fix-MF-gives-teamplay-rebirth-read-that/first#post2197006

i explain how to fix the teamplay by fixing the MF issue.

This is a serious and easy solution to implement

redgabber.5209:

hi, just have look to my thread :

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/Fix-MF-gives-teamplay-rebirth-read-that/first#post2197006

i explain how to fix the teamplay by fixing the MF issue.

This is a serious and easy solution to implement

Doesn’t really do much for the whole control is useless and support is underwhelming problem.

redgabber.5209:

hi, just have look to my thread :

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/Fix-MF-gives-teamplay-rebirth-read-that/first#post2197006

i explain how to fix the teamplay by fixing the MF issue.

This is a serious and easy solution to implement

Wait what do you mean by MF? Magic Find right? Sorry but what does that have to do with this thread?

@Kaaboose : my MF solution solve the Trinity/Teamplay issue by adding more realistic roles.

@Dual : control and support is useless because the game is too easy.
With less stat on stuff (replaced by MF), game is harder…so you need to be carefull how you play and respect roles.

redgabber.5209:

@Kaaboose : my MF solution solve the Trinity/Teamplay issue by adding more realistic roles.

It’s still irrevant. The system you proposed is to exchange stats on gear for a useless selfish stat. How is that going to help?
And don’t even bother repling if it’s to tell us why MF is not a useless/selfish stat. It IS. End of stroy and I’ve had too many threads derailed by that nonsense. Please don’t anyone by into that crap. If you want to discuss MF and how it effects the game look here:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/A-proposed-change-to-MF-to-benifit-all/
So Redgabber, your solution to make players work as a team is to give them the ability to put stats on their gear that only benifits them? That just gets us further away from team based gameplay in the worst way possible.

I think one example of poorly planned out tells is the Statue of Dwayna…

Now, because of the nature of the fight, most times if you’ve got to it in the first place it’s going to get zerged and it’s not really hard, it’s just a matter of beating on the pinata and not getting killed in the first place. So let’s not have the ‘you just want it to be easier’ thing. It’s already plenty easy. I’m using it as an illustration of something I’m familiar with.

The Statue of Dwayna has, basically, two attacks of note, each of which seems to have roughly a 10-15 second recharge.

The first is a PBAOE, with a very clearly telegraphed activation. You can see it coming, and back off out of the way. The damage it deals doesn’t seem to be all that impressive, though – you feel it, but the few times I have been hit with it, it didn’t feel as threatening as the second one…

…which is the ‘rain of light’ effect. She shoots up a fountain of bolts of light into the air, which come down on players within range, dealing something like ten thousand damage (it won’t one-shot you, but miss more than one or two and you’re probably downed or backing off to heal). Now, maybe it’s because I’m on Australian latency and all, but in my experience, by the time you see the plume it’s already too late to dodge – you have to catch the tell before the projectiles emerge. Now, the tell is there, but as the more threatening of the two attacks, it’s much more subtle than the closer-range attack.

Meanwhile, like many boss fights, there’s very little in the way of pressure that can be offset by healing, protection, or other forms of support. If someone’s at risk of being spiked down by the light fountain, a Healing Rain or Super Elixir just isn’t going to make the difference., and if poorly timed a player who attempts to make use of one might miss the next fountain tell and get knocked down as a result.

Again, I’m not complaining that this event is ‘too hard’. What I’m illustrating here is that you’ve got two attacks, one which is substantially more dangerous than the other – and yet it’s the weaker attack that has a tell that’s so obvious that you can’t miss. In fact, the first time I did it, I was dodging on the PBAoE attack that I usually wasn’t even in range for because I thought that massive and obvious windup had to be for the attack that was taking off half my hitpoints at a time. As mentioned earlier in this thread, Uzolan’s Golem is another example – the barrage and rocket-firing whirls are clearly telegraphed and they’ll hurt, but they’re survivable… and then every so often someone gets walloped with a one-shot out of nowhere.

Personally, bringing this somewhat back to the actual topic - while it gets a lot of hate, I think the Balthazar escort event is actually a good example of an event that rewards support (although those nobles really should be toned down). I think every time I’ve been a part of a successful completion of that event, it’s because I’ve taken it as my responsibility to keep an eye on NPC health bars and top them up on a regular basis, while other players are also doing the same thing. The NPCs take a lot of punishment before they die (it’s just that a dozen Nobles doing their shadowstep-and-well trick on you simultaneously deals out a lot of punishment) but are very subject to attrition – keep them near full health and, unless you’re unlucky, you’ll usually get through.

The reason why it usually fails is probably because most players are in the “DPS>All, kill-it-before-it-kills-you” mentality that they’ve been taught from the entire rest of the game.

redgabber.5209:

@Kaaboose : my MF solution solve the Trinity/Teamplay issue by adding more realistic roles.

@Dual : control and support is useless because the game is too easy.
With less stat on stuff (replaced by MF), game is harder…so you need to be carefull how you play and respect roles.

Um no. Control is useless because bosses are 90% immune to control effects.

Kaaboose.3897:

Bright.9160:

SNIP! (Sorry!)

If you can snip, I can snip

I see your point, but there is a major difference between your problems and Queen’s.

You want a different combat system to support the GW2 trinity of DPS, CC, Support, and I can fully find myself in your idea, and you have my blessing.

Queen seems to want to make boss moves more clear because (s)he (still don’t know for sure what it is, you confused me) has trouble seeing them. If the only change to the combat would be easier boss telegraphs, it would feel to me that they are just dumbing down the game to favor the bad players.

If you argue for different (not necessarily more clear) boss telegraphs for the sake of overhauling the combat system and introducing a more immersive experience in the game, I’m all for it. Because, as much as I might like doing 15-20min Arah p2 and 3, the only reason I like it is because the lupi fight keeps you on your toes, even if it’s only ever so slightly. All the other bosses are a DPS race that’s laughable. There is 0 challenge in any of the Arah bosses, except for Lupi. Make every boss in the game like lupi (not the same, I just mean: interesting mechanics) and I’d be a happy camper. Not to mention, he has really good telegraphs, you just need to know which one does what.

draxynnic.3719:

I think one example of poorly planned out tells is the Statue of Dwayna…
Soz gotta snip or reply won’t fit!

There is an EVR SO SLIGHTLY differnt animation to the rain of light thing but if she’s on fire (and she usually is) then good luck! That’s a great example of a poor telegraph and I’ve seen that attack wipe groups. I’m not even kidding.
However… I’d like to point Out I’ve done the boss before her (preistess) with 3 players It’s tricky and that’s what i like about it.
See, The priestest summons adds, And she has the ability to resurect thoese adds, quite frequently too. But the res has a range of about 900 yards.
So what we do is get some poor sap to aoe th lot of them and lure them away. While that’s happening One of us focuses the priest WITH A RANGED WEAPON and pulls her away.
My two friends kill the adds the come help me kill her. When she spawns more adds we lure them away again and then it’s back to her.
I gotta say though both the priest and the adds can hit pretty kitten hard and frequently. My guildees and I run mixed builds, I don’t think anyone is zerkers so it might not be possible for 3 META speced players.
I just felt like sharing that as I wish there was more gampley in GW2 combat that required more then the norm.

Bright.9160:

Kaaboose.3897:

Bright.9160:

SNIP! (Sorry!)

If you can snip, I can snip

Snip snippity snip snip!

I think this is a close to agreeing as we’re going to get and I’m happy to leave that there. I want more challing content as well but I really feel like the controls, system and tells are holding us back from getting it.

@Kaaboose : you don’t understood what i mean. i agree stat replacement is a pain but actually it works. remove toughness from dps character and add it only to the tank and the gameplay become different, more teamplay oriented, tested and approved.

so if you can replace a stat with mf, you got some effects. hard to gain better reward ? yes that is what we r looking for.

But i agree it is difficult to implement because the core did not built for that.

One way is to introduce new gears with mf combined with other stats that give a solution for people who looks for a purist gameplay and hardmode.

@Dual : yes you r right and this immune is stupid. i meant control for the adds, and support for the mates with aura zone and/or buff-combo like frozen armor etc…, it works perfect in party.

the control/support are the second roles a healer perform. if you play a pure class, you may have a real healer/support, a real dps glasscanon and a real tank. so… wtf ???

Finaly, the game is too easy… nobody need to build a team like this.

But nothing has been changed since the beta… 2 months after the release ANet found the waypoints in dungeon were abused and decide to block it.

That means they don’t know their game and i doubt they will change anything in the future…

They are not credible.

Bright.9160:

Queen seems to want to make boss moves more clear because (s)he (still don’t know for sure what it is, you confused me) has trouble seeing them. If the only change to the combat would be easier boss telegraphs, it would feel to me that they are just dumbing down the game to favor the bad players.

But I think you are still misunderstanding the argument I was making. I don’t want the game to be dumbed down. But clear boss moves are essential to good boss design overall. This is something that applies to every game that has boss battles. If there’s stuff that needs dodging, then the skill requirement should come from the actual dodging, and not from the ability to see what the boss is doing. Boss battles should challenge your reflexes and tactics, not your perception of the battle itself.

Again, I point at God of War. Look at how obvious the boss moves are, and keep in mind that God of War has unlimited dodges… and STILL the boss battles are challenging. That is because the battles them selves are well designed, and mechanics are well balanced. You will never be hit in God of War by a move that you couldn’t possibly see coming. Moves will never be subtle, they will be clear, and they will look menacing if they are dangerous. That is how every boss battle should be designed, with clear communication and strong mechanics in mind.

I’m not criticizing the game because I have trouble with the difficulty. In fact, I can handle most of the bosses in the game with ease. But the people I team up with are a different matter. They repeatedly get downed by attacks that I recognize as being unclear. None of these are bad players, they would dodge such attacks just fine if the bosses were better designed.

Also, as Kaboose pointed out, boss battles become way more exciting with unique sounds and tells. They add excitement and flair to the combat.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Bright.9160:

Queen seems to want to make boss moves more clear because (s)he (still don’t know for sure what it is, you confused me) has trouble seeing them. If the only change to the combat would be easier boss telegraphs, it would feel to me that they are just dumbing down the game to favor the bad players.

But I think you are still misunderstanding the argument I was making. I don’t want the game to be dumbed down. But clear boss moves are essential to good boss design overall. This is something that applies to every game that has boss battles. If there’s stuff that needs dodging, then the skill requirement should come from the actual dodging, and not from the ability to see what the boss is doing. Boss battles should challenge your reflexes and tactics, not your perception of the battle itself.

You seem to contradict yourself here. On one hand you say that bosses need better and longer windups for their attacks and on the other hand you say challenge should come from reflexes. Last time I checked, reflexes are meant to be quick reactions to a situation. Take for example the Wraithlord Crusher in Arah p3. He has a pretty clear and long windup for his attack. And it makes the fight super boring. Just walk around him when he’s charging up and hit him from the back. Same goes for the Abomination in p2, although the challenge at that boss comes more from finding that sweetspot where he doesn’t hit you, because his hit arc is pretty wide. The abomination at least has 1 attack where you need to dodge, which is his ground jump move, and his boulder throw if you’re at range, but I don’t range, so only gotta dodge that when aggroing.

So, those 2 boss fights have clear tells, yet, they don’t feel fast-paced or challenging. Why is that? Oh, because you don’t really need reflexes to dodge, making them easy as hell.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Also, as Kaboose pointed out, boss battles become way more exciting with unique sounds and tells. They add excitement and flair to the combat.

I always play with my gamesounds really soft because I prefer to listen to music instead of nonstop “BOOOM” “AAAH!!!” “FOR GREAT JUSTICE!” “Might makes me right!” and other nonsense. Really, they should give you the option to turn those stupid things off, because I got sick of them by the end of BETA, it’s almost 10 months into the game now…

The only reason I ever played with gamesounds was because of the GW1 skill “diversion”, because it had a really recognizable sound cue and you really didn’t want to cast anything if you had that skill up…

Don’t force me to play with sound cues please, unless they give the option to make your characters shut the hell up.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

I have yet to meet any PUG that pays ANY attention to combo fields. Everyone just spams their way through dungeons and Fractals, and it works fine. When I place a combo field, my party is mostly busy firing at the boss, and dodging red circles. Do you think that at any point they stop to line themselves up with my combo field? No one cares.

I don’t know how true that really is or if you just hadn’t noticed or are playing in groups so field-heavy that it becomes too complicated for anyone to follow. Generally in pugs you don’t know everyone’s build until you’ve played together a bit. You’re going to have derpers kitten in pugs (cue the zerker warriors in full CoF who think the whole game is all about full dps) but that’s mostly noticeable when things aren’t working out so well. I never have it so easy in a group than when a thief or necro’s dropping poison puddles all over the place for the AoE weakness. Light fields, chill spam and OMG I love the arcane armor when a mesmer’s around. All good stuff that somehow makes the difference between a rage-quit group and a group where you realize nobody’s died and only a couple people went down.

lynspottery.6529:

…I am also very disappointed in the direction “support” functions are implemented. I like helping out in groups. But, because I never got any loot worth much when I used my heals or other support talents, I stopped doing it.

When in a large group fighting a world boss, I think support should be equal attention for loot drops as the dps/direct damage does…

World bosses are clearly garbage atm. I run a full cleric meditation build in fractals and it works great. I get the same feeling I got on my boon prot monk in GW1 but with a lot more CC which makes it fun. Pure builds don’t work so well but if you think in terms of ‘dps with support/CC’ or ‘support with CC’ like I do on my ranger and guardian respectively it’s effetive and fun…and I have no issues with loot. You just can’t ‘be the healer’ and do nothing but…well, you can but it’s not going to work and you don’t have to in order to get the same feeling.

Dual.8953:

…Um no. Control is useless because bosses are 90% immune to control effects…

90% of the boss fights in dungeons aren’t the hardest part of the dungeon, either.

Dual.8953:

90% of the boss fights in dungeons aren’t the hardest part of the dungeon, either.

And you’re okay with that?

Still no comment from a Dev?

There’s not too much the Dev’s can respond with. You certainly aren’t going to get a “yeah this is correct, we’re going to redesign it in the next expansion…”. That would just eat up engineering expenses for no corresponding benefit in revenue (in the short term).

juno.1840:

There’s not too much the Dev’s can respond with. You certainly aren’t going to get a “yeah this is correct, we’re going to redesign it in the next expansion…”. That would just eat up engineering expenses for no corresponding benefit in revenue (in the short term).

I love that you put “In the short term” there. I’ve said many times GW2 could stand to learn a few things from WoW. Many assume it’s because I’m a WoW fanboi and I think WoW is better then GW2 (I don’t BTW) and I want the game more like WoW.
Well you hit the nail right on the head there as that’s another thing GW2 should have learned from WoW.
Dumbing down the game to make it apealing to new players got them some revenue in the short term but it’s been driving away their dedicated players that liked the challenge the game presented and, as their subsriptions have been falling ever since, It’s going to cost them money in the long term.
Having content for both ‘casual’ and ‘hardcore’ players is the way to go IMO as you get to keep both demographics. Some casual palyers may decide to seek out more challenges and move into the ‘hardcore’ parts of the content while some of the ‘hardcore’ players may decide to invest less in the game and go back to the ‘casual’ content.
I’m curious as to how player numbers are in GW2 as I’m becoming more Jaded with anet as time goes on as they’re not being clear with what they want GW2 to become… Not that them telling us would make me any less jaded. I’m still waiting for them to give us what they said GW2 would be in their Manifesto.

@kab i think that wow>gw2 and not only that they are not even in the same league but that’s not the issue .

What we know for sure is that Anet wanted to implemented some sort of trinity . After that we can only assume so take your pick :
- they thought that this trinity was going to be good but failed
- they were rushed and the product was released unfinished (which is something that kab thinks)
etc

I doubt that major changes will happen any time soon (if ever) because to design a trinity and trinity based dungeons probably takes a lot of time + the fact that ncsoft’s current priority is wildstar .

What we need is this : a modern day old wow (and the graphics in gw2 is definitely a start) + Trion’s improvements of wow in their game rift + your own vision ( but be sure not to stray off too much from wow+rift :P )
You have that you have the greatest game ever made

FalconX.9287:

@kab i think that wow>gw2 and not only that they are not even in the same league but that’s not the issue .

What we know for sure is that Anet wanted to implemented some sort of trinity . After that we can only assume so take your pick :
- they thought that this trinity was going to be good but failed
- they were rushed and the product was released unfinished (which is something that kab thinks)
etc

I doubt that major changes will happen any time soon (if ever) because to design a trinity and trinity based dungeons probably takes a lot of time + the fact that ncsoft’s current priority is wildstar .

What we need is this : a modern day old wow (and the graphics in gw2 is definitely a start) + Trion’s improvements of wow in their game rift + your own vision ( but be sure not to stray off too much from wow+rift :P )
You have that you have the greatest game ever made

Not after WoW 2.0 Personally, but I’m sure some are.
I just want the game we were promised in the manifesto and all my improvement videos come down to that.
The potential for Anet to deliver what they promised is all there in GW2, they just need to make it happen.
I honestly think, or thought anyway as I get more skeptikal by the day, that Anet were on their way to evolving the current state of MMOs.
I canot stress how much it breaks my heart to see their desings and dreams of GW2 slowly devolve into a microtrasnaction driven cow clicker.
The Trinity is just one of the many problems that needs to be resolved for anet to realise their original vision.

I think you totally have to see , whats going on in gw2 at the moment. it feels horrible to zerk everything down and just grind same content for months to get legendary. for example 10 man really? HARD-to-do dungeon or a “raid” with some rare skins or materials would be awesome improvement and it would refresh the game. Just something… we dont want temporary content… We need something that keeps us going back into the game… and please spare me of comments like “you have fractals, wvw…” etc… fractals are unrewarding, pointless grind and wvw is not a pve content. We need something really challenging that takes a time to practice and beat. And it doesnt mean creating a boss with infiniteuniverse number of health points and just turning whole fight into pure boring stuff.

I find myself wondering today, if ANet wanted movement to be a big part of defense (observe the amount of cripple fields an engineer can place for instance) why did they make strafe and backwards reduce movement speed?

digiowl.9620:

I find myself wondering today, if ANet wanted movement to be a big part of defense (observe the amount of cripple fields an engineer can place for instance) why did they make strafe and backwards reduce movement speed?

And at the same time make targeting so dependent on the facing of the camera. Those things conflict. You can’t promote movement, if the game reduces your speed constantly. The worst aspect I think is the in-combat slow down. That just annoys me to tears. The moment an enemy attacks me, my movement is slowed down to a crawl, even with a speed boost. And if I try running away, my target is deselected, so I must strafe or move backwards while looking at the target… but that’s slower.

And a lot of bosses seem to move faster than me, even while they are crippled, and certainly if I’m trying to move backward. It would be great if I could fear them if they got too close… but alas, they are all defiant and unshakable. ARGH!

Not letting this one die.

We really need them to make a new method of protecting control without out right rendering it pointless. I had a thought. What if they weakened the Unshakeable’s resistance to blind to say, 30% (may not sound like much but classes with a lot of blinds) or did something like make it so blinds will result in Glances rather then Misses with unshakable. Along with the other stated changes in the vid.

I fully support the OP. At first I thought it was the lack of Cantha and Elona that irked me, but it’s actually the “dumbing down” of the gameplay, if I may put it that way. Making dishing out damage the only viable way of taking down enemies is boring, and I would love it if we could use control and support more. I miss the smart, challenging gameplay of GW. (No, I’m not saying bring the old trinity back, I just want more pre-battle planning and strategic thinking during the battle.) It’s a good start with giving us combo fields, I love using them, but it’s simply not enough.