In my opinion, t8 rankings need more attention

In my opinion, t8 rankings need more attention

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Posted by: Manoa.5897

Manoa.5897

I bet you are one of the people that just camps the EB jp when fc or et actually has a keep

You can look at my post history to know that this is simply not the case. I’m not a fan of JP campers or camping and never attack in the EB JP unless attacked first. You know, you can disagree with my position on the source of SF’s population boom without resorting to accusations that are just not true.

Also, never seen your guild tag before and I’m in wvw all the time.

Because my guild is a small guild of friends from another MMO that is predominately PvE focused and I’m pretty much the only member of my guild who WvWs with any semblance of regularity. Keep an eye out for me in EB during Pacific Coast evenings. That’s where I spend most of my game time when I’m not leveling up alts. I’ll be like a game of “Where’s Waldo.” Nice try trying to discredit my position by implying that I’m not really a WvWer because you don’t see my guild tag in WvW. Super cute.

Also, I’m not arguing that we don’t have the numerical advantage in Tier 8. We do. And I’m not arguing that we didn’t receive transfers. We did (just not as early as the other servers in the match were claiming we got them). But there is disagreement (even among those on our own server) on just how much of our population boom is attributable to free server transfers and how much is attributable to those returning from PvE. I was sharing my take on the situation (which so happens to concur with Lucky’s take on the situation), nothing more.

Chaos Spatulai [Chef] | Paragon City Elite [PCE]
Henge of Denravi

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Posted by: oZii.2864

oZii.2864

K I read this and I look at the matchups for ET which I assume is your server. I see the gap in points that you are talking about between tier 8 and tier 7. I see that so I agree there is a decent gap difference.

Then I look at your server history and ET got steamrolled pretty much in all your matchups until you hit tier 8.

http://mos.millenium.org/servers/view/30/#history

08-15 December

HoD 121,208
GoM 387,903
ET 89,112

That is before the Kain train happened everything else before that ET was getting rolled.

The week before that

Anvil Rock 365,167
Eredon Terrace 80,617
GoM 148,487

After Kaineng in your tier you place

3rd in all your matchups with your best final PPT tally at

19-26 January matchup

SF 254,166
FC 179,492
ET 167,802

Looking at your server history you are were you should be.

SF peak rating is Rank 16th Tier 6

Devona’s gets the population influx you talk about and SF gets rolled. 15-22 December matchup.

They drop face GoM and HoD come in second then have same matchup the next week come in 3rd.
Since then they have been Tier 8 their first visit to tier 8 they came in second. Since then they have been in first.

12-19 januarty(not even a month ago)

The matchup was close between them and FC

SF 227,272
FC 212,693
ET 147,765

Since 19-26 January(still not even a month) they have won with a decent lead

Your post makes good points but looking at the history of tier 8 servers the numbers show something different.

[Good Fights]Sinndicate{Ele}Sinactic{Engineer}
Sinnastor{Warrior}Sinnacle{Mesmer}Sintacs
{Thief}

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Posted by: SniffyCube.6107

SniffyCube.6107

@manoa, If I misinterpreted your statement then forgive me. We have a few chest thumpers out there that really get annoying in the puzzle and on our thread.

@ ozii, once again a post by a player who has no idea what’s going on. Fantastic that you can look up mos millenium stats for after almost every major wvw guild ET, but when ET hit rock bottom t8 got a pretty good influx from christmas and a few guilds moved over. Anyone that’s actually played in our tier can tell you we can stand toe to toe with FC but, since you’re not here, and have never played here, and think you apparently know the state of wpvp here, I’ll enlighten you about SF

(but hey I’ll just go pretend to a surgeon after reading a surgery book)

large zergs and a lot of coverage, and now since we’re losing guilds which are leaving one at a time (same with FC) it’s getting much worse – why? because apparently beating someone for over double your score doesn’t move you up. So please justify it all you want after you come here and become more informed.

Also, new players to the game coming into WvW take one step in, get rushed by over 20-30 players, and leave. Do they come back? no. Is it fun for them? no.

We need to look at this tier situation. The math is most certainly not “fine as is.”

The Black Tides
[TBT]
Èl Cid

(edited by SniffyCube.6107)

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Posted by: Manoa.5897

Manoa.5897

@manoa, If I misinterpreted your statement then forgive me. We have a few chest thumpers out there that really get annoying in the puzzle and on our thread.

No worries! It’s totally difficult to interpret tone in a text-only communication environment and it’s bound to happen from time to time.

And I’m totally with ya on the chest thumping. I’m totally against chest thumping when it’s unwarranted and was quite vocal on these boards against such activity a couple months back when we railroaded HoD and ET.

We need to look at this tier situation. The math is most certainly not “fine as is.”

100% agreed. A server shouldn’t have to completely dominate their opposition for months (emphasis on the plural) before they dig their score out of the ditch and move to a better suited tier. Mismatched fights like these are no fun for all parties involved (those who dominate and those who are being dominated). And it’s disheartening to hear that servers who are already struggling with WvW population are loosing even more people due to such mismatches (which even further exacerbates the population discrepancies).

Chaos Spatulai [Chef] | Paragon City Elite [PCE]
Henge of Denravi

(edited by Manoa.5897)

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Posted by: SniffyCube.6107

SniffyCube.6107

There is a vocal minority of SF who think that the match up is fair right now and they are winning due to some kind of miraculous ability to follow a blue dot en masse. Mostly pvers coming out of the woodwork, but I had mistaken you for one of them!

to make amends I say we have a tonic race through EB!

The Black Tides
[TBT]
Èl Cid

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Posted by: oZii.2864

oZii.2864

@ ozii, once again a post by a player who has no idea what’s going on. Fantastic that you can look up mos millenium stats for after almost every major wvw guild ET, but when ET hit rock bottom t8 got a pretty good influx from christmas and a few guilds moved over.

Anyone that’s actually played in our tier can tell you we can stand toe to toe with FC but, since you’re not here, and have never played here, and think you apparently know the state of wpvp here, I’ll enlighten you about SF

Who cares what someone will “tell” me that would probably be a opinion.

You have never beaten them FACT you have never placed first in any matchup Fact.

(but hey I’ll just go pretend to a surgeon after reading a surgery book)

Data shows fact not some fiction not some opinion I gave you an objective look at based on your responses and specifically your op you are Biased.

large zergs and a lot of coverage, and now since we’re losing guilds which are leaving one at a time (same with FC) it’s getting much worse – why? because apparently beating someone for over double your score doesn’t move you up. So please justify it all you want after you come here and become more informed.

*Your giving some hearsay and personal experience probably has some validity to some of it I’m sure. I am not discrediting all of it. The data shows the tier 8 servers are were they belong. I can look up FC but I am sure it shows the same thing with your server and SF. They never beat any of the higher tiers in order to justify moving up or staying put. *

You keep saying x server can stand toe to toe with tier 7 but why don’t the scores reflect that?

Also, new players to the game coming into WvW take one step in, get rushed by over 20-30 players, and leave. Do they come back? no. Is it fun for them? no.

We need to look at this tier situation. The math is most certainly not “fine as is.”

Then those players aren’t really into WvW getting rushed over by zergs happens in all tiers not just T8. If you can’t take getting rolled by a zerg then nothing will change how you feel about wvw that goes for every tier.

I gave you an objective look your opinion is obviously biased. What do you think Anet will do if you use common sense?

They will look at the data which will be more detailed then mos millenium they aren’t gonna have the whole dev team log into ET and see how wvw is there.

Lets say for arguments sake they log into your server to see how it is there they will get a FEEL for it. Then go back and do what? Compare with the data.

[Good Fights]Sinndicate{Ele}Sinactic{Engineer}
Sinnastor{Warrior}Sinnacle{Mesmer}Sintacs
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Posted by: oZii.2864

oZii.2864

Anyway continue to go victim route or whatever your aim is here I am by no means an expert on the matchup algorithm.

Your basically arguing that your a team in the NCAA tournament and because you felt your team played hard but the other guys are a bit better and won you deserve to advance because of effort.

Anyone with half a brain can look at your servers matchup history and tell you that you are suppose to be at the bottom tier.

[Good Fights]Sinndicate{Ele}Sinactic{Engineer}
Sinnastor{Warrior}Sinnacle{Mesmer}Sintacs
{Thief}

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Posted by: Ynot.8397

Ynot.8397

@ ozii, once again a post by a player who has no idea what’s going on. Fantastic that you can look up mos millenium stats for after almost every major wvw guild ET, but when ET hit rock bottom t8 got a pretty good influx from christmas and a few guilds moved over.

Anyone that’s actually played in our tier can tell you we can stand toe to toe with FC but, since you’re not here, and have never played here, and think you apparently know the state of wpvp here, I’ll enlighten you about SF

Who cares what someone will “tell” me that would probably be a opinion.

You have never beaten them FACT you have never placed first in any matchup Fact.

(but hey I’ll just go pretend to a surgeon after reading a surgery book)

Data shows fact not some fiction not some opinion I gave you an objective look at based on your responses and specifically your op you are Biased.

large zergs and a lot of coverage, and now since we’re losing guilds which are leaving one at a time (same with FC) it’s getting much worse – why? because apparently beating someone for over double your score doesn’t move you up. So please justify it all you want after you come here and become more informed.

*Your giving some hearsay and personal experience probably has some validity to some of it I’m sure. I am not discrediting all of it. The data shows the tier 8 servers are were they belong. I can look up FC but I am sure it shows the same thing with your server and SF. They never beat any of the higher tiers in order to justify moving up or staying put. *

You keep saying x server can stand toe to toe with tier 7 but why don’t the scores reflect that?

Also, new players to the game coming into WvW take one step in, get rushed by over 20-30 players, and leave. Do they come back? no. Is it fun for them? no.

We need to look at this tier situation. The math is most certainly not “fine as is.”

Then those players aren’t really into WvW getting rushed over by zergs happens in all tiers not just T8. If you can’t take getting rolled by a zerg then nothing will change how you feel about wvw that goes for every tier.

I gave you an objective look your opinion is obviously biased. What do you think Anet will do if you use common sense?

They will look at the data which will be more detailed then mos millenium they aren’t gonna have the whole dev team log into ET and see how wvw is there.

Lets say for arguments sake they log into your server to see how it is there they will get a FEEL for it. Then go back and do what? Compare with the data.

I am on FC and I CAN tell you that ET can stand toe to toe with us, but neither of us can touch Sorrow’s. If we COMBINED we might stand a chance, until the early morning where we need to catch some zs. Have you ever played down in T8? How can you make any guess as to how badly we are outnumbered without taking a trip down here?
Another question, how is it that ET and FC can both stand against Sorrows on reset night? It isn’t some magical fairy dust that grants us mad skillz. It is because for that day populations are much more even than on any other. For that day we can have fair fights. For the rest of the week we lose, and we lose hard.
Please take your sorry troll butt out of the thread and take the others with you. You all have no idea how it is down here.

Ferguson’s Crossing→ SoS→ DR→ EBay

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Posted by: Ynot.8397

Ynot.8397

Anyway continue to go victim route or whatever your aim is here I am by no means an expert on the matchup algorithm.

Your basically arguing that your a team in the NCAA tournament and because you felt your team played hard but the other guys are a bit better and won you deserve to advance because of effort.

Anyone with half a brain can look at your servers matchup history and tell you that you are suppose to be at the bottom tier.

No, we are arguing that Sorrows doesn’t deserve to be in the bottom tier. No sane person in the world disputes that ET and FC don’t deserve to be in T8. We just want a chance to be able to play against a team that doesn’t win for 5 days out of the week due to population imbalances.

Ferguson’s Crossing→ SoS→ DR→ EBay

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Posted by: stereoblind.4736

stereoblind.4736

However if someone has magical fairy dust that grants mad weird sleeping patterns to our US wvw’ers you can pass some of that around

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Posted by: Manoa.5897

Manoa.5897

There is a vocal minority of SF who think that the match up is fair right now and they are winning due to some kind of miraculous ability to follow a blue dot en masse. Mostly pvers coming out of the woodwork, but I had mistaken you for one of them!

to make amends I say we have a tonic race through EB!

Pish…zerging everything isn’t “strategy.” :p We have some solid folks who are trying to break our people of that habit, but we have a ways to go yet. As we get more leaders/commanders and experienced regulars, it’ll get better (I’d say it already is starting to get better, but again, we still have a long way to go).

And I’m a PvEer too. But I do a LOT of WvW too. I’m by no means WvW expert and still have a lot to learn. But I’ve been in WvW long enough to know the ropes and our server’s trends.

Chaos Spatulai [Chef] | Paragon City Elite [PCE]
Henge of Denravi

(edited by Manoa.5897)

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Posted by: Cosmic.6047

Cosmic.6047

K I read this and I look at the matchups for ET which I assume is your server. I see the gap in points that you are talking about between tier 8 and tier 7. I see that so I agree there is a decent gap difference.

Then I look at your server history and ET got steamrolled pretty much in all your matchups until you hit tier 8.

http://mos.millenium.org/servers/view/30/#history

Since you are good with server history and numbers.

Please check the history of Devona’s Rest and Kaineng.
There you can see what it took for them to break out of the T8 trap
and how they blew through T7 and T6 after their escape.

The ranking system purpose is to achieve match-ups with even skilled/geared/populated a.s.o. servers. ( not a tool to establish bragging rights )

I think most people don’t care in which tier they are as long as the match is not totally lopsided.

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Posted by: stereoblind.4736

stereoblind.4736

^ to capitalize on this, no one complaining about this match-up from FC or ET could give two kittens or a dog that we’re in Tier 8. The problem is we’re facing a server that obviously belongs in a few tiers up and it’s completely ruining our fun in this game. /whine /cry whatever you wanna call it, come to T8 on either FC or ET, get stomped by a zerg of 40+ every which way you turn on every map and tell me it’s “balanced.”

Edit: merged my posts so my ^ makes sense ;p

I don’t really see how past rankings have to do with anything when everyone in this thread is completely aware of the fact that you could transfer from server to server every 7 days for free at one point in this game’s history..

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Posted by: Ragnarz.1750

Ragnarz.1750

I don’t really see how past rankings have to do with anything when everyone in this thread is completely aware of the fact that you could transfer from server to server every 7 days for free at one point in this game’s history..

THIS

Pure truth, go wave your kitten elsewhere.

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Posted by: Agricola.2817

Agricola.2817

@ ozii, once again a post by a player who has no idea what’s going on. Fantastic that you can look up mos millenium stats for after almost every major wvw guild ET, but when ET hit rock bottom t8 got a pretty good influx from christmas and a few guilds moved over.

Anyone that’s actually played in our tier can tell you we can stand toe to toe with FC but, since you’re not here, and have never played here, and think you apparently know the state of wpvp here, I’ll enlighten you about SF

Who cares what someone will “tell” me that would probably be a opinion.

You have never beaten them FACT you have never placed first in any matchup Fact.

(but hey I’ll just go pretend to a surgeon after reading a surgery book)

Data shows fact not some fiction not some opinion I gave you an objective look at based on your responses and specifically your op you are Biased.

large zergs and a lot of coverage, and now since we’re losing guilds which are leaving one at a time (same with FC) it’s getting much worse – why? because apparently beating someone for over double your score doesn’t move you up. So please justify it all you want after you come here and become more informed.

*Your giving some hearsay and personal experience probably has some validity to some of it I’m sure. I am not discrediting all of it. The data shows the tier 8 servers are were they belong. I can look up FC but I am sure it shows the same thing with your server and SF. They never beat any of the higher tiers in order to justify moving up or staying put. *

You keep saying x server can stand toe to toe with tier 7 but why don’t the scores reflect that?

Also, new players to the game coming into WvW take one step in, get rushed by over 20-30 players, and leave. Do they come back? no. Is it fun for them? no.

We need to look at this tier situation. The math is most certainly not “fine as is.”

Then those players aren’t really into WvW getting rushed over by zergs happens in all tiers not just T8. If you can’t take getting rolled by a zerg then nothing will change how you feel about wvw that goes for every tier.

I gave you an objective look your opinion is obviously biased. What do you think Anet will do if you use common sense?

They will look at the data which will be more detailed then mos millenium they aren’t gonna have the whole dev team log into ET and see how wvw is there.

Lets say for arguments sake they log into your server to see how it is there they will get a FEEL for it. Then go back and do what? Compare with the data.

Actually, FC beat SF in their first week down when they just squeaked out of T7 due to Kaineng destroying tier 8. It was a good close match. So thanks for painting broadly with that brush.

Despite the fact that we won that match by less than 4k points Sorrows Furnace lost 163 points on their rating because we had the misfortune to fight Devona’s Rest and Kaineng when they got transfers. Because there is no other tier for our servers to move to for a better fight the ratings kept dropping deeper. Now our rating is so low, they get basically very few points for even beating us handily so we get even more weeks of our server rating dropping despite having no place to move to.

FC- TCCP

(edited by Agricola.2817)

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Posted by: Takerukun.8924

Takerukun.8924

Wall of Text Warning

TL;DR: Something is wrong here, and manual override is probably needed. Please, raise the T8 ratings to be within 100 or so of T7. Almost anything would be a major improvement at this point. Most of T7 and better is working as intended, but the math for T8 is simply impossible to overcome. Just looking at the past month alone shows that.

Just so that nobody misunderstands, nothing in this post is in any way debating whether FC and ET deserve to be in T8. This is simply backing up the people that say SF should be bumped up, manually if need be. They don’t deserve to be stuck in T8, and leaving them in T8 is demeaning to all three servers involved. However, the math behind the ratings is so screwed up that it’s almost impossible to do it naturally.

Please just take a look at SF’s rating evolution during their fall to T8. It’ll show you just how screwed up the math is, and how it’s almost literally impossible to escape from T8, even with a T7+ server.

When SF was still in T7, they came in third. They lost to second by a tiny 10k point gap. Their rating fell by 47.291 points.

When they fell down to T8, they came in second. They lost to first place by only 4k points. Mind you, they had an additional 76k points over what they had at the end of the week previously, but their rating still fell by a massive 163.07 points.

The week after that…they won. They beat second place by 15k points. What happened to their rating? It fell by an additional 30.339 points to beach itself at 793.338, a full 242.634 points behind HoD. I’d like to remind people that HoD and SF were roughly evenly matched before SF fell to T8.

Now take a look at HoD, who by all arguments was roughly evenly matched with SF before SF fell down to T8. The week after the fall, Kain curbstomped T7, with HoD taking third place. HoD lost by 10k points, only having 26k points at the end of the week.

Their rating? It fell by 61.899 points, down to 933.190. That’s it. It pushed itself back up to where it should be the week after that when Kain flung themselves out of the tier, now hovering roughly about the 1020 mark.

HoD’s rating is an example of what should happen when the tier ratings are close enough together that a blowout actually lets the system realize there might be a problem. SF’s ratings, on the other hand, are an example of just how screwed up the T8 math is.

No server should drop more than 150 points when they perform roughly the same. No server should continue to drop even more points when they start to wake up the server and win.

Then, simply because of the initial point loss, when SF truly woke up and started to roflstomp T8 (be it from people coming back to WvW or from free transfers is irrelevant at this point), the system can’t see a problem.

If anybody can argue that the math in place, and SF being held in T8 because of it are “fair” and “as it should be”, I’m begging you: Wake up.

As to why T8 ratings are so far below the T7 ratings in the first place, that topic would probably take half an essay to go over, so I won’t here. Just know that Kain and DR did not help the ratings of T8 at all with their stay.

On a side note, when SF finally breaks out of T8 (probably in 3-4 weeks if they keep the blowouts up), I request people take a very close look at the rating of the server that drops to take SF’s place. I’d bet you almost anything they drop minimum100 points the first week.

[Yarr] Takeru Kagamine – Usually dead or dying
Ferguson’s Crossing
Probably lurking

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Posted by: insanemaniac.2456

insanemaniac.2456

on the subject of DR history and their last matchup in t8… a lot of the fc wvwers at the time allowed them the christmas present of taking over our border for significant amounts of time just so they could move out of tier 8 that week. we held it before that and had enough people who cared around making sure we held that map, but we only had enough to ensure 1 maps worth of dominance… while kaineng was slowly demoralized with major focus on them from dr. we definitely could have trapped dr in t8 for much longer (or at least another match) because of the silly rating system, but we had no chance of actually winning against their much greater population. quite similar to the current match with sf.

as for kains history… well they just got so many more transfers that even holding our own borders was impossible. and even sitting at 600+ ppt wasnt enough to get them out of the matchup in a timely manner.

JQ: Rikkity
head here to discuss wvw without fear of infractions

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Posted by: oZii.2864

oZii.2864

Ok if the argument is that SF should be in T7 I already posted on SF

SF peak rating is Rank 16th Tier 6

Devona’s gets the population influx you talk about and SF gets rolled. 15-22 December matchup.

They drop face GoM and HoD come in second then have same matchup the next week come in 3rd.

Since then they have been Tier 8 their first visit to tier 8 they came in second. Since then they have been in first.
12-19 januarty(not even a month ago)
The matchup was close between them and FC

SF 227,272
FC 212,693
ET 147,765

Since 19-26 January(still not even a month) they have won with a decent lead except the first time they came in first they only won by about 14.5k PPT over FC.

Your post makes good points but looking at the history of tier 8 servers the numbers show something different.

They havent been in tier 8 long enough and the first visit to tier 8 they came in second since then they have come in first 4 times. They aren’t winning by enough to move up to tier 7 because tier 7 is close enough and competitive enough to keep a ppt gap. When they hit tier 7 they came in 2nd 1 time. Then after that they came in 3rd which dropped them down to tier 8.

It took kaineng 3 weeks to move out of tier 8 thats not very long at all. Tier 7 is competitive HoD is 21st but looking at the match history they come in second pretty often in that tier only 1st 1 time but its back and forth between 3rd and 2nd its not like they always get blown out and are 3rd.

The only way SF moves out of tier 8 is to win by enough PPT and for the 21t server to lose by alot both need to happen simultaneously and on a regular basis. That is why SF wont move up.

Its like Tier 4 which is the upper flip flop tier. Tier 3 top servers are good but not enough to go to tier 2 and if they do they get blown out (see fort aspenwood recently) then drop but usually tier’s 1 through 3 are stable. Except the server in last in tier 3 sometimes what happens is the that server drops to tier 4 and blows out tier 4 and moves back up to tier 3 (see crystal desert)

[Good Fights]Sinndicate{Ele}Sinactic{Engineer}
Sinnastor{Warrior}Sinnacle{Mesmer}Sintacs
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Posted by: Takerukun.8924

Takerukun.8924

The only way SF moves out of tier 8 is to win by enough PPT and for the 21t server to lose by alot both need to happen simultaneously and on a regular basis. That is why SF wont move up.

Under normal circumstances, this is correct. Nobody argues that. What people are arguing is that in any other tier, the current blowout SF is providing the other servers with would make the performance of the tier above moot.

Take a look at Kain’s ratings. On the week they got the mass tranfer, they stomped T8 by over 200k points. Their ratings went up 211.428 points. After maintaining the slaughter-fest in T8, their ratings continued to rise. First by 111.249 points, then by a relatively meager 70.770 points.

That’s a whopping 393.447 points gained before they reached the next tier, and 3 weeks of misery for all sides involved.

Then look at their ratings after that. Not a single tier Kain was in required more than 200 points to reach the next tier. And it wasn’t until they reached T3 that they gained fewer than 150 points.

Yes, their server got even more transfers as they went up the ranks, and they might have even improved as that happened. However, do you honestly think that in one week, they improved enough to go from gaining 70 points by roflstomping T8 to 224 points in T7?

If anybody does, please get yourself checked. (This is not a direct attack at you Ozii. This is just general ranting on my part. My apologies if I offend.)

Furthermore, did the tiers above Kain suddenly stop performing well, with each being hit consecutively with some sort of n00b sickness to allow Kain to progress? No, they were simply so good in their own tier that the tier above didn’t matter any more for advancement purposes.

This is the reason that almost everyone in T8 is up in arms at the moment. You need to be consistantly T5+ material to escape from T8 in any semblance of a timely manner. Even then, the escaping tier needs some sort of mass plague to affect the performance of the tier above to have a glimmer of hope.

SF is not T5+ material. They have been here for 5 weeks already. They’re on their 6th. It’s going to take at least another 2 weeks for them to get out, for a total of at least 8 weeks stuck in T8 even though they’re T7 material.

[Yarr] Takeru Kagamine – Usually dead or dying
Ferguson’s Crossing
Probably lurking

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Posted by: Spica.9308

Spica.9308

Loves ET and FC like Kaineng and DR once was. At least if we do go up no one has the right to say we were simply being “Carried”.

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Posted by: SniffyCube.6107

SniffyCube.6107

Try to respect our situation… when you see individuals from all three of the servers on here saying that there is a problem with the tier, then there is probably a problem with the tier. We’ve given plenty of background and more people from our servers are chiming in everyday. Honestly, oz, you aren’t from here, you haven’t played our tier, and you have no idea what you’re talking about as a result. I am trying to see why or how you have any first hand knowledge of the situation and I fail to.

Once again ozii, respect our thread and take the trolling elsewhere because, with all due respect, you really don’t have a clue about the current match up.

The Black Tides
[TBT]
Èl Cid

(edited by SniffyCube.6107)

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Posted by: oZii.2864

oZii.2864

Try to respect our situation… when you see individuals from all three of the servers on here saying that there is a problem with the tier, then there is probably a problem with the tier. We’ve given plenty of background and more people from our servers are chiming in. Honestly, I don’t respect your opinion at all oz, because you aren’t from here, you haven’t played our tier, and you have no idea what you’re talking about as a result. I am trying to see why or how you have any first hand knowledge of the situation here and I fail to.

Once again ozii, respect our thread and take the trolling elsewhere.

Stop being so sensitive I get it your the white knight for your cause. I never said anything offensive just looked at numbers. Your just thin skinned (extremely). Anet will do the same thing as objectively if not more than I did.

Takerukun.8924 provided a very nice explanation not some magical ranting about experience but numbers. This is also on the forums that is what happens when you post on the forums people click reply button.

Don’t respect it you should click the report button and see if I get an infraction I bet I dont because I haven’t said anything offensive. You are the one calling people trolls if they disagree you should really get over your sensitivity.

I have not said anything directed at you personally. I don’t know why you keep trying to throw personal attacks at me for because I disagree I guess that is deflection.

Back on topic -(because posting about people not being from tier 8 shouldn’t post in this thread is not on topic OP)

Thanks for the numbers breakdown takerukun.

fyi my server did play in tier 7 not to long ago.

[Good Fights]Sinndicate{Ele}Sinactic{Engineer}
Sinnastor{Warrior}Sinnacle{Mesmer}Sintacs
{Thief}

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Posted by: SniffyCube.6107

SniffyCube.6107

Anyway continue to go victim route or whatever your aim is here I am by no means an expert on the matchup algorithm.

Your basically arguing that your a team in the NCAA tournament and because you felt your team played hard but the other guys are a bit better and won you deserve to advance because of effort.

Anyone with half a brain can look at your servers matchup history and tell you that you are suppose to be at the bottom tier.

Yeah, you’re not a troll at all.

Anyway, a lot of people have thrown around a lot of good ideas on how to fix this issue.

Manual adjustments (moving servers up or down)
Reset the elo to just under t7 every once in a while for tier 8

The Black Tides
[TBT]
Èl Cid

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Posted by: oZii.2864

oZii.2864

Anyway continue to go victim route or whatever your aim is here I am by no means an expert on the matchup algorithm.

Your basically arguing that your a team in the NCAA tournament and because you felt your team played hard but the other guys are a bit better and won you deserve to advance because of effort.

Anyone with half a brain can look at your servers matchup history and tell you that you are suppose to be at the bottom tier.

Yeah, you’re not a troll at all.

Anyway, a lot of people have thrown around a lot of good ideas on how to fix this issue.

Manual adjustments (moving servers up or down)
Reset the elo to just under t7 every once in a while for tier 8

You call that a troll? rofl A troll would be me trying to incite anger in you if you hooked into those words from that post then yea ok lol.

I even said I wasn’t a expert on the algorithm in the same sentince guess I trolled myself there too.

That part of the response was more a less directed at

but hey I’ll just go pretend to a surgeon after reading a surgery book

-SniffyCube

[Good Fights]Sinndicate{Ele}Sinactic{Engineer}
Sinnastor{Warrior}Sinnacle{Mesmer}Sintacs
{Thief}

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Posted by: Takerukun.8924

Takerukun.8924

Thanks for the numbers breakdown takerukun.

Not a problem. I was going to go mad if somebody didn’t point out the numerical evidence for how screwed up T8 is at the moment. It isn’t even the disparity in population that’s the real issue. It’s the complete and utter lack of possible advancement for the server with the population anomaly.

To the thread in general, try and keep the discussion to a civil debate! ANet won’t take anybody seriously if we start to sound like a group of monkeys flinging feces at each other.

[Yarr] Takeru Kagamine – Usually dead or dying
Ferguson’s Crossing
Probably lurking

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Posted by: Manoa.5897

Manoa.5897

Takerukun, thank you for the excellent explanation (with numbers!) as to why everyone in Tier 8 is up in arms about how the ratings work. +1’d! It’s my hope someone with ArenaNet takes notice of your post and comes up with some viable solutions for our tier.

Chaos Spatulai [Chef] | Paragon City Elite [PCE]
Henge of Denravi

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Posted by: insanemaniac.2456

insanemaniac.2456

but hey I’ll just go pretend to a surgeon after reading a surgery book

how have you not done exactly this? youve gone and looked at some numbers and came in here claiming to know something about something. you clearly missed out on the importance of server ratings and instead focused the final point tallies. the 200-300 rating point gap between either the bottom 2 servers and the third server in the match or between t7 and t8 is the issue here, not that some server won by 70k points in the week of ____.

JQ: Rikkity
head here to discuss wvw without fear of infractions

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Posted by: Darek.1836

Darek.1836

wtf is going on with my posts….
here is the link to my text since the forum is screwing it up
http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=0k7hYvx1

Holy
Sharks With Lazers [PEW]

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Posted by: TheGhostBaron.1250

TheGhostBaron.1250

oZii, if I may mate, I think the problem you’re having in a thread about T8 is you’re not in T8. You’re looking at end results and all other kinds of data, which because SF is still in T8, the results and data aren’t working as intended. Cause if the data really meant anything SF would be gone and those of us on FC and ET would be fighting a new 3rd server and probably having a blast. This is why people aren’t taking anything you’re saying seriously, because you don’t have any first hand experience with the problem like we do. Untill you fight you tail off reset day only to see hours of hard work go up in smoke after a mere 8 hour period and then have to try and fight to take your territory back when its defended by 3 and 4 times your number, you should leave this thread. I mean that with all the respect in the world because if you don’t like what we’re saying or how we’re saying it you shouldn’t be reading this thread.

That being said, if you wanna stay in this thread you should ante up the money to transfer to FC or ET and fight with us against SF day in and day out and see how long you consider T8 an even match.

ET- KWBH

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Posted by: oZii.2864

oZii.2864

oZii, if I may mate, I think the problem you’re having in a thread about T8 is you’re not in T8. You’re looking at end results and all other kinds of data, which because SF is still in T8, the results and data aren’t working as intended. Cause if the data really meant anything SF would be gone and those of us on FC and ET would be fighting a new 3rd server and probably having a blast. This is why people aren’t taking anything you’re saying seriously, because you don’t have any first hand experience with the problem like we do. Untill you fight you tail off reset day only to see hours of hard work go up in smoke after a mere 8 hour period and then have to try and fight to take your territory back when its defended by 3 and 4 times your number, you should leave this thread. I mean that with all the respect in the world because if you don’t like what we’re saying or how we’re saying it you shouldn’t be reading this thread.

That being said, if you wanna stay in this thread you should ante up the money to transfer to FC or ET and fight with us against SF day in and day out and see how long you consider T8 an even match.

It happens in every tier there are plenty of matchups right now in higher tiers were a server is rolling the other server. Its about coverage if you don’t have the coverage equal to the other servers your facing then you are going to lose. That isn’t just a tier 8 problem. Our match right now we are rolling DR and IOJ because we have better coverage and more WvW players than they do. DR can take their entire borderland and we can take it back anytime we want.

Look at yaks bend they are rolling in their matchup. I get it you put in effort and the server you are facing is rolling and its not a fair matchup you feel. I get that part but that is not just a T8 problem. Its not just a Kain train problem either.

It happens in Tier 1 SBI had an exodus because they always get rolled by SoS and people got tired of it now SBI is falling they will be tier 5 next week. Sound like a story similar to yours and I don’t play tier 1 or T8 I have been in Tier 7. Sea of Sorrows can’t go anywhere they have to be number 1 and the servers below them have to fight for 2nd and 3rd.

I never said T8 was a fair match or did I say it was even or competitive. I just said the servers that are in T8 SF included are suppose to be in tier 8. SF can’t move up to T7 unless ET and FC tank to let them win by alot and a T7 server tanks and both have to happen at the same time. That isn’t my opinion that is fact. I am not taking sides I am just saying that that is what is going on. That is why T8 is the matchup that it is.

I don’t have a problem with anything anyone is saying in the thread its a discussion nothing more nothing less.

[Good Fights]Sinndicate{Ele}Sinactic{Engineer}
Sinnastor{Warrior}Sinnacle{Mesmer}Sintacs
{Thief}

(edited by oZii.2864)

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Posted by: Corvus.3681

Corvus.3681

oZii, if I may mate, I think the problem you’re having in a thread about T8 is you’re not in T8. You’re looking at end results and all other kinds of data, which because SF is still in T8, the results and data aren’t working as intended. Cause if the data really meant anything SF would be gone and those of us on FC and ET would be fighting a new 3rd server and probably having a blast. This is why people aren’t taking anything you’re saying seriously, because you don’t have any first hand experience with the problem like we do. Untill you fight you tail off reset day only to see hours of hard work go up in smoke after a mere 8 hour period and then have to try and fight to take your territory back when its defended by 3 and 4 times your number, you should leave this thread. I mean that with all the respect in the world because if you don’t like what we’re saying or how we’re saying it you shouldn’t be reading this thread.

That being said, if you wanna stay in this thread you should ante up the money to transfer to FC or ET and fight with us against SF day in and day out and see how long you consider T8 an even match.

It happens in every tier there are plenty of matchups right now in higher tiers were a server is rolling the other server. Its about coverage if you don’t have the coverage equal to the other servers your facing then you are going to lose. That isn’t just a tier 8 problem. Our match right now we are rolling DR and IOJ because we have better coverage and more WvW players than they do. DR can take their entire borderland and we can take it back anytime we want.

Look at yaks bend they are rolling in their matchup. I get it you put in effort and the server you are facing is rolling and its not a fair matchup you feel. I get that part but that is not just a T8 problem. Its not just a Kain train problem either.

It happens in Tier 1 SBI had an exodus because they always get rolled by SoS and people got tired of it now SBI is falling they will be tier 5 next week. Sound like a story similar to yours and I don’t play tier 1 or T8 I have been in Tier 7. Sea of Sorrows can’t go anywhere they have to be number 1 and the servers below them have to fight for 2nd and 3rd.

But when a higher tier loses, they will move down or the other team will get moved up and maybe get a fairer match. With us, we’re just stuck getting steamrolled for the foreseeable future. I want to like WvW but our situation is Sisyphean.

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Posted by: oZii.2864

oZii.2864

oZii, if I may mate, I think the problem you’re having in a thread about T8 is you’re not in T8. You’re looking at end results and all other kinds of data, which because SF is still in T8, the results and data aren’t working as intended. Cause if the data really meant anything SF would be gone and those of us on FC and ET would be fighting a new 3rd server and probably having a blast.

This is why you have to look at the data then you wouldn’t think this at all. The data shows that SF is suppose to be in T8 they can not move up because nobody in T7 loses by enough and SF doesn’t win by enough to move up. What 3rd server would you face? It wouldn’t be one from T7 because they don’t lose by enough PPT. SF is close to the rating to move up to T7 but HoD would have to come in last probably 2 or 3 times in order to drop down.

As it is HoD doesn’t come in first often but they do come in second often switching between 2nd and 3rd but its not like they come in 3rd and get blown out and its not like they come in 3rd 3 or 4 times in a row.

What 3rd server would you face? You need HoD to tank at least 4 or 5 weeks in a row. Your problem has as much to do with Henge of Denravi as it does Sorrow’s.

[Good Fights]Sinndicate{Ele}Sinactic{Engineer}
Sinnastor{Warrior}Sinnacle{Mesmer}Sintacs
{Thief}

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Posted by: oZii.2864

oZii.2864

oZii, if I may mate, I think the problem you’re having in a thread about T8 is you’re not in T8. You’re looking at end results and all other kinds of data, which because SF is still in T8, the results and data aren’t working as intended. Cause if the data really meant anything SF would be gone and those of us on FC and ET would be fighting a new 3rd server and probably having a blast. This is why people aren’t taking anything you’re saying seriously, because you don’t have any first hand experience with the problem like we do. Untill you fight you tail off reset day only to see hours of hard work go up in smoke after a mere 8 hour period and then have to try and fight to take your territory back when its defended by 3 and 4 times your number, you should leave this thread. I mean that with all the respect in the world because if you don’t like what we’re saying or how we’re saying it you shouldn’t be reading this thread.

That being said, if you wanna stay in this thread you should ante up the money to transfer to FC or ET and fight with us against SF day in and day out and see how long you consider T8 an even match.

It happens in every tier there are plenty of matchups right now in higher tiers were a server is rolling the other server. Its about coverage if you don’t have the coverage equal to the other servers your facing then you are going to lose. That isn’t just a tier 8 problem. Our match right now we are rolling DR and IOJ because we have better coverage and more WvW players than they do. DR can take their entire borderland and we can take it back anytime we want.

Look at yaks bend they are rolling in their matchup. I get it you put in effort and the server you are facing is rolling and its not a fair matchup you feel. I get that part but that is not just a T8 problem. Its not just a Kain train problem either.

It happens in Tier 1 SBI had an exodus because they always get rolled by SoS and people got tired of it now SBI is falling they will be tier 5 next week. Sound like a story similar to yours and I don’t play tier 1 or T8 I have been in Tier 7. Sea of Sorrows can’t go anywhere they have to be number 1 and the servers below them have to fight for 2nd and 3rd.

But when a higher tier loses, they will move down or the other team will get moved up and maybe get a fairer match. With us, we’re just stuck getting steamrolled for the foreseeable future. I want to like WvW but our situation is Sisyphean.

Thats not what happens in the higher tiers. If a tier 1 server drops to tier 2 they will steam roll tier 2 and the tier 2 server that moves up will get steam rolled. Then they will switch back the next week.

It has happened alot of times like I said look at crystal desert. My server was tier 4 CD was tier 3 they dropped down because they got tired of fighting but not advancing. They dropped and rolled our tier it was boring for everyone. CD moved back up to Tier 3.

Fort aspenwood long time tier 3 server moved up last week to tier 2 they got rolled they dropped down to tier 3 again but they roll the current tier 3 servers. So now FA is stuck they aren’t good enough for Tier 2 but roll the servers in tier 3. So now they have to either get rolled or roll others over.

Yaks bend will take maguumas spot in Tier 3 and unless yaks bend got a ton of people they will get rolled and it wont be fun for anyone involved. Now Maguuma just rolled yaks bend about 2 weeks ago so that is why I am predicting Yaks gets rolled by FA.

Your problem of getting steam rolled by SF is not just a T8 problem.

[Good Fights]Sinndicate{Ele}Sinactic{Engineer}
Sinnastor{Warrior}Sinnacle{Mesmer}Sintacs
{Thief}

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Posted by: oZii.2864

oZii.2864

oZii, if I may mate, I think the problem you’re having in a thread about T8 is you’re not in T8. You’re looking at end results and all other kinds of data, which because SF is still in T8, the results and data aren’t working as intended. Cause if the data really meant anything SF would be gone and those of us on FC and ET would be fighting a new 3rd server and probably having a blast.

This is why you have to look at the data then you wouldn’t think this at all. The data shows that SF is suppose to be in T8 they can not move up because nobody in T7 loses by enough and SF doesn’t win by enough to move up. What 3rd server would you face? It wouldn’t be one from T7 because they don’t lose by enough PPT. SF is close to the rating to move up to T7 but HoD would have to come in last probably 2 or 3 times in order to drop down.

As it is HoD doesn’t come in first often but they do come in second often switching between 2nd and 3rd but its not like they come in 3rd and get blown out and its not like they come in 3rd 3 or 4 times in a row.

What 3rd server would you face? You need HoD to tank at least 4 or 5 weeks in a row. Your problem has as much to do with Henge of Denravi as it does Sorrow’s.

People have been trying to explain to you that things have changed and it’s not about the data… that you have to be here to experience the trasnfers, morale, and how the server fights are going… we mentioned that a few from HOD that came to ET said the SF coverage was insane… yet you insist on flaunting these pre paid server xfer stats in our faces and tell us that we’re bad because we’re tier 8… honestly, like the other players have said, you should come down here and experience it. Otherwise, you’re trolling looking for an argument. There were some intelligent rebuttals after your posts but I guess you’ve failed to read them… I guess the free bumps are nice.

I am not looking for a argument you are obviously because anyone with a different point of view is trolling.

Ok throw out SF coverage throw out all off everything.

Unless HoD loses by alot SF can not and will not move up to Tier 7. That is point blank period that is just the facts.

It is not just a T8 problem there are other servers in other tiers that are equal to what you face in SF in that their coverage is better than the servers they are facing.

At the end of the day SF will not move out of Tier 8 unless a Tier 7 server starts to lose alot. That is just what it is no matter how you slice the bread that still has to happen.

[Good Fights]Sinndicate{Ele}Sinactic{Engineer}
Sinnastor{Warrior}Sinnacle{Mesmer}Sintacs
{Thief}

(edited by oZii.2864)

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Posted by: Manoa.5897

Manoa.5897

Your problem of getting steam rolled by SF is not just a T8 problem.

True. But the fact that servers are getting steamrolled isn’t the issue. It’s the DURATION of said seamrolling that’s an issue. No server should have to steamroll their opposition for over a month just to move up to the next tier. And no server should have to endure steamrolling for over a month for the hope that they get to face an opponent that may be a better fit. (If HoD’s population and coverage is anything like what it was when we faced them last month, I wholeheartedly feel that they would be a far better fit for ET and FC than SF).

Chaos Spatulai [Chef] | Paragon City Elite [PCE]
Henge of Denravi

(edited by Manoa.5897)

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Posted by: Takerukun.8924

Takerukun.8924

oZii, none of us (most?) are not arguing over the coverage of SF. None of us are denying that someone in T7 losing would speed up SF’s escape velocity. What we are trying to say is that, due to the nightmare history of free transfers, combined with horrible luck, the T8 ratings have been beaten too low for a realistic “escape velocity” when dealing with this tier.

In the upper level tiers you’ve mentioned, they drop to lower level tiers. That is where this issue differs enough to matter. Even though some of those servers are steamrolled, when they are steamrolled enough, they drop. The huge factor that this plays is that they then curbstomp the lower tier.

Because of this, their rating goes back up. It doesn’t take a permanent and unavoidable nose-dive. This creates a lower floor for the rating difference. T8 doesn’t have that safety net, and is what everyone is trying to point out.

[Yarr] Takeru Kagamine – Usually dead or dying
Ferguson’s Crossing
Probably lurking

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Posted by: fishergrip.4082

fishergrip.4082

I think everyone agrees that a bit more movement between tiers could be a good thing, but the reset would have been terrible for WvW. They don’t need to reset to alter how servers move between tiers.

Maid Of The Coast

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Posted by: Takerukun.8924

Takerukun.8924

…I had thought I’d read everything in the thread. I can’t seem to find the reset being mentioned in a positive light at all. Could you kindly quote it for future reference? Much obliged.

Very few people actually think a reset is the means to the end we are asking for. There isn’t any need to upheave the upper ranks for our problem. Actually, the OP even stated within the first four lines of the thread that it would be a horrible idea. We are simply pointing out that there is a problem in the current T8 math due to no lower floor being in place, and hoping someone with the power to fix it does so.

[Yarr] Takeru Kagamine – Usually dead or dying
Ferguson’s Crossing
Probably lurking

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Posted by: Tanryth.1074

Tanryth.1074

You know with guesting now in place anyone that thinks they understand tier 8 and would think they could make a huge difference please by all means come on down and get steamrolled with those of us that have gone through it for weeks and see if you enjoy WvW afterwards. The reason our noobs are so reluctant to WvW is because everyone has scared them by saying how bad it is. We took in our guild noobs and had a good time but they are reluctant to go back because SF is just hammering us and they feel they aren’t getting anything out of it. So please feel free to come guest with us.

Shara Longblade – 80 Guardian
MooN – Seafarer’s Rest

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Posted by: Corvus.3681

Corvus.3681

You know with guesting now in place anyone that thinks they understand tier 8 and would think they could make a huge difference please by all means come on down and get steamrolled with those of us that have gone through it for weeks and see if you enjoy WvW afterwards. The reason our noobs are so reluctant to WvW is because everyone has scared them by saying how bad it is. We took in our guild noobs and had a good time but they are reluctant to go back because SF is just hammering us and they feel they aren’t getting anything out of it. So please feel free to come guest with us.

I don’t think guesting works with WvW, though.

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Posted by: Takerukun.8924

Takerukun.8924

^ If it did, tiers and server scores would be impossible to calculate, even in T7+ servers.

[Yarr] Takeru Kagamine – Usually dead or dying
Ferguson’s Crossing
Probably lurking

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Posted by: TheGhostBaron.1250

TheGhostBaron.1250

If you want to talk about rankings, I did some checking myself, SF’s ratings has been consitently dropping even though they are tearing ET and FC apart every week. So lets return this to the intial problem. The math that goes into the ranking and match up system is flawed, cause if it worked, SF’s rating would be persitently increasing even by small amounts for every week they finish first, but instead its dropping. How is T8 supposed to get a good match when 2 of the servers have no chance of winning so their rating drops, and the top server in the T8 match up has their rating drop despite stomping the other servers into dust? Thats the point 90% of us are trying to make, we want the problem addressed, cause when you ignore server pops, you ignore coverage, you ignore WvW player activity you still come to a dead end where the system breaks and leaves people in an unwinnable situation.

ET- KWBH

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Posted by: Takerukun.8924

Takerukun.8924

The way that the ratings work is that the system looks at the three servers’ current ratings and predicts the point outcome based off of those. The ratings are – sadly – modified based on how well a server does against its predicted outcome.

The math behind this is perfectly valid in theory. However the theory also assumes that the rating you have is more or less static, and that you will be facing enough opponents that a non-static score will be quickly dealt with.

This is what creates the soul-crushing pit that is T8. Due to the relatively small opponent pool we’ve faced, and the very static nature of their ratings (SF aside. Kain and DR were enough), the math involved has pushed the rating of FC to below where it should be. This, in turn, pulled ET down with us. And together, we shackle anyone unfortunate enough to face us.

That’s the problem with the current lack of a lower floor in T8 ratings. We’re far enough below the true T8 ratings (while still being T8 ratings), that SF can’t beat us by as much as the T7 ratings require it to. They lose ratings because the system not only expects them to curbstomp us, it expects them to curbstomp a fourth – and maybe a fifth as well – opponent in order to be on T7’s level.

That’s how beaten and bloody ET’s and FC’s ratings have become. Even if we did absolutely nothing, gaining fewer than 1000 end of week score between the two of us, SF still would not have beaten us by enough for the system to have trial run with SF in T7.

What makes this worse, is that every week SF stays in T8 and slaughters us, our ratings are going down further. This, simply put, only makes matters worse the longer they stay. SF will have roughly a two month stay. Assuming things continue to be a blowout even with SF gone as most non-T8 posters have predicted, the next unfortunate victim of T8 will be held hostage even longer.

[Yarr] Takeru Kagamine – Usually dead or dying
Ferguson’s Crossing
Probably lurking

(edited by Takerukun.8924)

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Posted by: Detharos.3157

Detharos.3157

Although I think the topic has mostly been handled, as I think its one of my posts that caused some confusion I think I will drop a line here to clarify something. Some of this will sound a bit repetitive so forgive me.

Nobody is arguing that Ferguson’s Crossing or Eredon’s Terrace belong in a higher tier. However, I did mention with a good amount of confidence that we could hold our own against certain tier 7 servers. The point in this which I believe to be fact and you can argue that if you wish, is that there are servers in tier 7 that as it stands deserve a spot in tier 8 much more than Sorrow’s Furnace does. I also state that I believe with its CURRENT numbers and coverage, should the keep up and not get demoralized from some slight challenge, SF will probably move comfortably up to tier 6 and that should they hit a wall, it would likely be in tier 5 which basically means I think they are a tier 6 server and with a little bit more experience and organization with their current numbers they’d easily be tier 5 also I’d say as they are very comparable to the Devona’s Rest that we fought in imbalanced matchups for weeks before they finally advanced to tier 5 unchallenged.

For those of you in higher tiers who continue to for reasons beyond my knowledge find yourselves annoyed with our posts, let me give you an example of one of things it is that annoys us enough to make these posts.

Say for example, for whatever reason a tier 1 server was put into our bracket right now and like us had a rating of about 650 to start with. The most elite of the elite, most skilled, most numbers, with the best coverage of tier 1. The reason doesn’t matter: They took a break as a server from WvW or whatever, just imagine what it would look like if it happened. Let’s even give this hypothetical server a name for lulz. THE TIER 1 SERVER, LAQUIFA’S KITTENSLAP. (Lukian is gonna love this.) 695 ppt to a single server in our tier. ALL THE TIME. Domination. We walk outside the spawn point in any location and die not far from our spawns, not able to accomplish even one breakout successfully because the enemy has every map queue’d all the time. We’d go through this for a week. Then another week. Then a third week. Then a fourth week. And then yes, a fifth week. And MAYBE even a sixth or seventh week. And then they’d finally move up. Imagine through that month + how agonizing and also costly it is to try anything in WvW. How people who loved WvW before get burnt out and start quitting. We lose individuals, we lose capable leaders and we get put BACKWARDS in WvW to a state even weaker than we were before because of how WvW has become absent of any fun. A literal burden to enter it and nothing more.

Now LAQUIFA’S KITTENSLAP finally advances. It dominates tier 7 equally as brutally as it did ours. And what happens? One week its there, and its gone after that. Then it’s stay in tier 6 is just as brief. Tier 5 is bypassed with as little problems. Tier 4 actually has a few small points on the board, but is wiped thoroughly nevertheless and it advances. Tier 3 makes an impressive showing in reset but is quickly 600+ PPT’d and within a day or two its back to 695 PPT. LAQUIFA’S KITTENSLAP advances to tier 2 where it battles it out for however many weeks it takes until it eventually stands again as a tier 1 server.

Now think about it, is it really fair that because of the way the rating system works, we should of had to fight this beast longer than the combined time it took for it to advance against tier 7, 6, 5, 4, and 3 combined? No, that’s not fair at all. Imagine the sheer damage done to our server in this hypothetical situation, the sheer numbers of old pros quitting WvW, the numbers of average WvW players quitting or demoralized and likely to never try seriously again, the sheer numbers of WvW first timers who wanted to give it their shot and lost their “WvW virginity” to some beast rolling 695 ppt and not letting anyone exit the spawn.

Dathaul, 80 Melee Ranger
Ferguson’s Crossing server.

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Posted by: Detharos.3157

Detharos.3157

Now let me be clear, no I’m not calling any of our opponents tier 1 level, duh. This is pure example of broken the rating system is. The fact is tier 4 level servers will dominate us with 695+ppt also probably, and the situation would be pretty much the same albeit less people dying right next to spawn points. And yes, this is a hypothetical situation, but if a tier 1 server for whatever reason be it purposely or coincidence fell down to our tier and regained its numbers this is what would literally happen. Is it fair that ironically when so many of you say we are weaker than tier 7, that a server like that would spend 7 times the time with us that it would with tier 7? The advancement rate in tier 8 is far too slow.

Also, tiers are designed to produce balanced matchups, not rank strength. While it is almost inevitable to happen anyways, let’s be honest there is no Dragon kitten-style scouter scanning server power levels in the tiers and balancing them accordingly. In theory you could have three equally matched servers in three tiers where each higher tier is weaker than the lower one, and because of the balanced matchups unless something changed drastically like a major server falling down it would stay that way for months. So yes, it is possible and in my opinion fact that there is a weaker server than the current Sorrow’s Furnace in tier 7. And the system should be made capable of replacing Sorrow’s Furnace with them in as little as two weeks, it shouldn’t take a month and a half as it is.

Now if you will, since so many of you rely so heavy on the mos.millenium matchups to determine anything for you, take a look at tier 8’s history. Ferguson, Kaineng, and Devona’s Rest had an amazing matchup for a decent amount of time in TIER 8. So obviously, tier 8 never having a good 3 way split is a myth. Let me tell you something else: it was transfers that strengthed Devona’s Rest and Kaineng so much. The moment DR started having those 300k point wins, it was already tier 6 level coverage, and when it continued into upwards of 350k and higher its numbers from that time peaked. From that point from what I read in the forums its numbers actually didn’t change much. Yet it advanced straight into tier 4 with little trouble where it finally was bested and then lost MANY fairweather transfer players yet still was strong enough to hold in tier 5 and has been there to this day. Now, take a look at how long they had to dominate us to move up, and how short a time they needed to move up in tiers above us. Take a look how Kaineng which pretty much became a massive power house the moment DR left, and rapidly grew was already to the point that it was tier 6-ish-5ish material before guilds like WM and RE transferred to it(They had numbers very reminiscent of the Devona’s Rest that dominated us at this point.) and when in the last two weeks WM and other guilds transferred to them it became an even worse slaughter. Yet look how long we were stuck with that horrible mismatch until they finally advanced, and contrast that with the time they’ve spent in every other tier since then.

Tell me, how is it “Working as intended” when a system supposedly designed to produce a balanced matchup has been able to produce one in tier 8 that lasted more than two weeks which history shows WAS BALANCED IN THE PAST BEFORE TRANSFER HELL, and now its been what, four months since matchups here were consistently balanced? Now also consider that the little rating we did have has taken a beating unlike any other before it from this grueling period of oversized servers “passing by” and that we won’t be able to reach a more appropriate rating number (once as high as 870-1k+ for Ferguson’s Crossing) for many months after the tier finally rebalanced, which nobody truly knows how long will take except for the minimum of the 3-4 more weeks it will take SF to advance.

Dathaul, 80 Melee Ranger
Ferguson’s Crossing server.

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Posted by: Detharos.3157

Detharos.3157

And lastly, what the heck is up with people coming here from other servers and other tiers with absolutely no history in our tier or real knowledge about its inner-workings , annoyed with us for our few complaints and literally complaining about our complaining? You tell me, how could we not complain, how can we not be frustrated with ArenaNet when things are this way through NO FAULT of our own, when this system that is supposed to produce balanced matchups has punished only our ratings this harshly and and made balanced matchups take months more to occur in this tier than any other tier when a server has a population shift? And what about so many long-timers in our WvW maps that have stood through all the constant imbalanced matchups looking forward to the time when they could have balanced matchups for more than a month, trusting in ArenaNet and its systems to fix things, these same people who are loyal to the community they’ve participated in just about everything with and didn’t hop to the nearest safe haven when things looked bad, who’ve literally had to sit by and watch while countless players simply hopped to greener pastures when they had more than a 30, 000 points difference(something we’d rejoice if we had) and these same people boast in the forums of how much they are enjoying WvW now on their now(only because it was forced on them) permanent homes, and when some of these same people are coming in our threads calling us “Whiners”, “Weak” and mocking our few complaints we’ve had.

This is literally the only week I’ve seen a thread from our tier dedicated to complaining. NEWSFLASH we’ve been frustrated for weeks now, and have sucked it up this entire time and are only now running out of patience. We weren’t quiet because things were good, we were quiet just because we’ve been patient, because we’re more hardcore about WvW than many others in higher tiers even are. We’re not a bunch of whiny kittens for making threads like this, we have FAR more right to complain than even tier 2 does about the cases of slow tier 1 server advancement. Add on to this the frustration of ArenaNet members not replying to any of our concerns, bringing about a reset that actually would of been a good thing for our long broken tier and fixed the damage MUCH faster for our tier and cancelling it maybe 2 days before it hits (And yes I know it would of been bad for other servers. I’m not saying it was an ideal solution, in fact it was horrible. Manually tweaking rating gaps would still be a more fair, and much more effective solution. But at least the reset was sign of a coming change to us. Without it, we’re just back to the same old stupidly slow grind with broken ratings), in addition countless players from higher tier servers being completely indignant to our comments and at times even responding in inflammatory manners simply because they really don’t know at all what our tier is like, what our history is like, and simply don’t care. If you don’t care, why the heck would you read the thread, reply to individuals and even in some cases go so far as to dig up mos.millenium records (while not knowing jack about how they even came to be) and wielding them like a 3 year old trying to use a sniper rifle; hitting 0 marks with 0% accuracy when you try to use them, as if in some vain attempt to defend ArenaNet because when enough people of the same mind ironically WHINED about a good incoming change, ArenaNet listened. The same people complaining against us in our own threads, defending ArenaNet’s actions and handling of our tier are the SAME people who hypocritically call ArenaNet “A failiure of a company” and threaten to quit the game for future Skyrim installments when ArenaNet makes a good decision that you dislike.

Get real, of course we’re gonna be annoyed. Hell, I’m pretty kitten to see some of you have the gall to show your faces here. So if you don’t like the thread topic just because Ferguson’s Crossing, Eredon’s Terrace and ironically even many of the currently dominating Sorrow’s furnace players are saying things that don’t amount to participating in high-tier circle jerks like so many of you had when ArenaNet announced a rating reset.. then why don’t you just get the heck out of the thread?

Dathaul, 80 Melee Ranger
Ferguson’s Crossing server.

(edited by Detharos.3157)

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Posted by: Detharos.3157

Detharos.3157

Now, as a final post, this will be the important one. Somebody asked what the question was. Now, as I see it the question is addressed to ArenaNet themselves.

The question is, Does ArenaNet care about tier 8?.

Now since it always comes down to this basis, let’s get down to the nitty gritty of what ArenaNet would be thinking if they did answer.

Ok, so you got our attention, what is it that you want? What is your main point? What do you want ArenaNet to do for your tier, and the servers within it?

Our main point is this; FIX TIER 8. Please DO whatever it takes. Don’t talk about it. Don’t make 2 month long concessions on it and then act in the next nearest month’s end. DO IT FAST.

Why? Because people who’ve been enduring 3 months of imbalanced matchups with another 2-3 weeks of it on the horizon and all mystery and coping with ruined ratings on the horizon after that are frustrated and are quitting the game, and our WvW power is going to shrink from the little it is long before your “Sooper Dooper prestige patch” even makes an appearance.

What do you of tier 8 suggest?

A few things. First it would help to read the thread posts, although yes you would have to skim through some frustration-filled comments. That’s the burden you’ve earned. There have been plenty of suggestions but here are some I’ve seen from other players that I do recall:

-Fix the math in your broken-as heck Glicko2 rating system. Tier 8 to Tier 7 should not have such a rating gap.

-Fix only the portion of rating gap between tier 8 and 7. Take some rating away from all of the other servers, and add it into the ratings of our tier 8 servers, so that SF can advance next week and that the damage done to the ratings of Eredon’s Terrace and Ferguson’s Crossing. Set SF to just a little below HoD, ie. 1010, and Fergs and Eredon set to about the 830/850 mark. While you’re at it, you might as well fix the damage to the ratings of other tiers that unpredicted server transfers ruined also. ArenaNet surely has the numbers and facts all available to them, they need only act on it manually for once instead of constantly speaking in defense of Glicko2. Glicko2 is not perfect, and it could really use some help in this particular application of it; in the form of some manual adjustments to help it produce balanced match ups more consistently and quickly.

-Server mergers of some low population servers and complete removal of tier 8

-Reopen free transfers but just to or between Ferguson’s Crossing and Eredon’s Terrace. So in the very least that in the sight of our servers weakening from people burning out, we could all hop to ET or vice versa and make one server with a WvW population that stands a chance. Since only now in hindsight with the rating reset cancelled, some of our servers’ players are now regretting that we didn’t do this when we had the chance to do it for free

Dathaul, 80 Melee Ranger
Ferguson’s Crossing server.

(edited by Detharos.3157)

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Posted by: shankyu.6154

shankyu.6154

SF here. If you want to get rid of SF so bad and have some equal numbers to fight against, which I know SF certainly wants, then just stay home. Don’t step into WvW and just let SF have and hold everything for a week or so. We’ll be outa your hair in no time. Then you can get all the map completion and jumping puzzles you want.

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Posted by: insanemaniac.2456

insanemaniac.2456

because we’re more hardcore about WvW than many others in higher tiers even are.

what tier allows you the opportunity to fight over a keep 2v3 because there are literally no other players? t1? lol. t2? lol. …t7? just maybe. t8? yes.

have fun trying to duo a keep lord just to say you have when you get swarmed by 1 team or another with your lofty server ratings.

and dathaul, now i know why i dont see you much, youve become a forum warrior from these stupid matches

JQ: Rikkity
head here to discuss wvw without fear of infractions

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Posted by: Moddo.7105

Moddo.7105

I really wish they would just merge ET and FC and go from there however it would cause a lot of people pulling the whole “uh-oh server merges Anet is in trouble people aren’t playing the game will close in a month now!!!!!111!!!!!” But really, I would love to frolic down the road between Anz and Speldan holding hands with the Ferglings and outsmarting SF zergs of 30+

Edit: and if merges are impossible then it’s back to spamming Queensdale chat with “need moar aussies in my lyfe pls”

Problem with this is that WvW population does not = overall server pop in all cases. So if then combined servers it might be more than server can handle.