Guild Wars 2

Yohimbe.1876:

CC Meinke.2749:

Please note that this thread has been renamed according to the Code of Conduct.
Thank you for your understanding.

LOL. Well then.

I’ve been following this thread with interest. As an SBI member I can tell you ET/FC we feel your pain. Hold on, little buddies, there is a great chance we will meet you as we continue our own whomping freefall through the ranks.

It seems to me that WvW is divided between hi-pop zerg servers and the rest of us. There really does need to be a mechanism in place that takes the number of players v players on the field into account. Match ups need to be balanced whether it’s ZvZ or not and T8 is taking the worst brunt of this imbalance. It is incomprehensible to me that ANet has not stepped in to address the situation. Well, except for the thread renaming bit.

SBI still has decent #s and you won’t fall any further then t5. You guys would murder t8

I think T8 just needs a reset.

It also needs to be mentioned that we have first handedly seen SF significantly improve and gain numbers since they dropped here. All evidence in the history of switches between rankings in T8-T7 have shown that T8 is on par with, if not better than, T7.

LOL. And here I thought a dev was going to give a post showing some concern for the stagnation in T8 that puts people in unbalanced matches for months. What a fool I am.

boy was that wish for some red love a disappointment…

Labarge.1439:

ParaldaWind.4523:

Honestly, though… who else would T8 play? Have you guys not considered that you might be stomped by any T7 server that drops down?

I know Maguuma dropping down only one tier, from T4 to T5 caused two weeks of insane roflstomping. The same happens when FA drops into T3…

There is a world of difference between tiers, and I don’t think a ratings reset would change anything for ET or FC.

The problems are two-fold:

1. ET and FC do not have an appropriately matched third opponent, and more importantly:

2. ET/FC’s low ratings cause an excessive dragging effect on SF (or any other server eventually in SF’s current situation) which makes it very difficult for overqualified servers to get out of T8 when they are forced to fill that open slot.

The 2nd problem is the one that I think can be more easily dealt with, as it is caused primarily by how ratings are calculated. Problem #1 is not a simple fix, as you correctly point out. However, not being simple doesn’t invalidate it as a problem, and at the very least something could be done to help alleviate problem #2.

to add to this: problem 1 is something we may never know because of problem 2. maybe hod IS qualified. maybe they arent. but we dont even get a chance to find out in a reasonable length of time, mostly because sf’s pvers/fairweathers didnt show up until week 2 of their stay in t8… AFTER they lost the first week and had their rating tanked.

Yohimbe.1876:

CC Meinke.2749:

Please note that this thread has been renamed according to the Code of Conduct.
Thank you for your understanding.

LOL. Well then.

I’ve been following this thread with interest. As an SBI member I can tell you ET/FC we feel your pain. Hold on, little buddies, there is a great chance we will meet you as we continue our own whomping freefall through the ranks.

It seems to me that WvW is divided between hi-pop zerg servers and the rest of us. There really does need to be a mechanism in place that takes the number of players v players on the field into account. Match ups need to be balanced whether it’s ZvZ or not and T8 is taking the worst brunt of this imbalance. It is incomprehensible to me that ANet has not stepped in to address the situation. Well, except for the thread renaming bit.

Yeah, I’ve been following your server’s fall with mild interest. Not that I like seeing servers fall, but I’m wondering if yours is finally the one that will fit comfortably in T8. From what other posters have said, you would still need a lot of people to transfer away, but that isn’t beyond the realm of possibility when a server drops from T1 to T4.

As to the Red-Card response not really directly responding to anything other than the title being a little too…flashy, I’m not really surprised. The good sign is that they responded at all. That means the thread has at least gotten their attention. Whether for better or for worse remains to be seen. Though, an extreme case of angering them isn’t likely, since they haven’t outright locked the thread, and they haven’t banned anyone posting on the thread.

Logically, they can’t give a response with any real meat to it, because any statement by an ANet account would be taken as an official confirmation that something is wrong, and that a fix is on the way. Due to the simply lovely invention of bureaucracy, this could take weeks, if not months, before a response like that would be allowed. Anything that happens before that is liable to get someone fired. That’s why even a post explaining a title change gives me some hope.

All we can do in the mean time is keep the debate up, remaining as civil as possible while following the Code of Conduct, and keep this thread on the front page. If we start flame wars, or start flinging every derogatory word in the English vocabulary at ANet in hopes that some of the rotten fruit sticks, we’ll just get the thread ignored and shut down.

In time, an actual response might yet be forthcoming, if only so much as a thread-lock and swing with the ban-hammer. But, at the very least, we would then know their official take on it.

I’m a regular WvW player in Sorrow’s Furnace and I have to admit, it feels like Fergusen’s Crossing and Eredon Terrace gave up a few weeks ago. At least having a new opponent instead of Sorrow’s Furnace would raise morale enough to bring more of them to the battlefield.

Labarge.1439:

The problems are two-fold:

1. ET and FC do not have an appropriately matched third opponent, and more importantly:

2. ET/FC’s low ratings cause an excessive dragging effect on SF (or any other server eventually in SF’s current situation) which makes it very difficult for overqualified servers to get out of T8 when they are forced to fill that open slot.

The 2nd problem is the one that I think can be more easily dealt with, as it is caused primarily by how ratings are calculated. Problem #1 is not a simple fix, as you correctly point out. However, not being simple doesn’t invalidate it as a problem, and at the very least something could be done to help alleviate problem #2.

You brought a tear to my eye with beauty of this post. (^_^)/
+1

Oozo.7856:

LOL. And here I thought a dev was going to give a post showing some concern for the stagnation in T8 that puts people in unbalanced matches for months. What a fool I am.

Sorry for using you as an example (even if I am taking your post out of context), but your post is actually another reason why having ANet post just to explain a title change indirectly helps the cause of this thread. Whether intentionally or not, they’ve flagged this thread as having an official response. The fact that the response isn’t actually a response aside, having the response at all makes people check the thread.

A lot of people who would never have read the thread in the first place are now going to see the giant red button beside it and think “Oh wow. I thought T8 was just whining, but ANet responded to them! OMG I’m checking this out!”

Keep debating guys. Our resolve just might see us through yet.

I think most of us wanted something more… maybe a “we’re looking into it” what this change told me was that they’ve read this post and believe it’s only in my opinion, and maybe only affects t8… I’m probably just paranoid though at this point.

SniffyCube.6107:

I think most of us wanted something more… maybe a “we’re looking into it” what this change told me was that they’ve read this post and believe it’s only in my opinion, and maybe only affects t8… I’m probably just paranoid though at this point.

the op is yours, you can always add in an edit or 2 to say things like this also is a t1/t2 issue

insanemaniac.2456:

SniffyCube.6107:

I think most of us wanted something more… maybe a “we’re looking into it” what this change told me was that they’ve read this post and believe it’s only in my opinion, and maybe only affects t8… I’m probably just paranoid though at this point.

the op is yours, you can always add in an edit or 2 to say things like this also is a t1/t2 issue

^ And no, you’re not paranoid. I’m just trying to remain as positive as possible before burnout and attrition destroy any effort and effect this thread has created.

Don’t lie to him, I’m in his guild, he’s paranoid =P

Just trying to keep the discussion going…It’s important that we try to find a solution, even if it seems like we’re being ignored atm… or are being ignored… can’t really tell
@ghostbaron … I fart in your general direction

The math in this game, works in theory but it will never work in practice due to the ability of the math to be manipulated.

The math should be based off of:
1) Number of people involved in WvW (by sorting accounts, not players)
2) Times of highest server concentration
3) Lowest amount of population sets the cap. (Server A 300 available, Server B 225, and Server C 100.) It should be 100 people.
4) Since the servers reset weekly, after 3 days if a server is 50k+ points down they should automatically get 25% boost to damage, Health, all rewards, and 25% discount on supplies needed for siege. OR, just add the benefit to the existing “outmanned” buff.
5) Ensure the Jumping Puzzle can not be accessed unless you are in the lead.

SniffyCube.6107:

Just trying to keep the discussion going…It’s important that we try to find a solution, even if it seems like we’re being ignored atm… or are being ignored… can’t really tell

Pause and Ponder this,

They are using a very well developed and top notch system that is designed to build a individual profile for unique user and place them an ideal tier of skill to guess the outcome of several massive pugs.

If that does not scare you, it has not sunk in yet.

Ungood.3054:

SniffyCube.6107:

Just trying to keep the discussion going…It’s important that we try to find a solution, even if it seems like we’re being ignored atm… or are being ignored… can’t really tell

Pause and Ponder this,

They are using a very well developed and top notch system that is designed to build a individual profile for unique user and place them an ideal tier of skill to guess the outcome of several massive pugs.

If that does not scare you, it has not sunk in yet.

collectively, a server acts as a unique individual. youre missing the forest for the trees and assuming the rating applies at all to any of the trees. and you need to replace “skill” with “population” instead of even thinking a servers rating has anything whatsoever to do with “skill” from the massive population imbalances that have run rampant. so dont be scared, because the rating system is applicable. we just need more than 24 competitors (not happening), or for manual adjustments to take place when issues like 200 point rating gaps crop up.

insanemaniac.2456:

Ungood.3054:

SniffyCube.6107:

Just trying to keep the discussion going…It’s important that we try to find a solution, even if it seems like we’re being ignored atm… or are being ignored… can’t really tell

Pause and Ponder this,

They are using a very well developed and top notch system that is designed to build a individual profile for unique user and place them an ideal tier of skill to guess the outcome of several massive pugs.

If that does not scare you, it has not sunk in yet.

collectively, a server acts as a unique individual. youre missing the forest for the trees and assuming the rating applies at all to any of the trees. and you need to replace “skill” with “population” instead of even thinking a servers rating has anything whatsoever to do with “skill” from the massive population imbalances that have run rampant. so dont be scared, because the rating system is applicable. we just need more than 24 competitors (not happening), or for manual adjustments to take place when issues like 200 point rating gaps crop up.

Both good points!

Jesse.4631:

Apparently my last comment was “rude” my apologies Anet, but how are people not suppose to post on this forum with a tad of frustration, when it feels like T8 is being treated like something that can be ignored, over something that’s obviously a problem?

I see less and less people in wvw every day, not just from FC or ET, but from SF themselves. This matching has become stale, no one enjoys watching a movie, when they know the ending.

While calling a specific individual an idiot isn’t exactly the most PR approved move in the world, I don’t think many would disagree with the assessment presented in your post, nor your frustration. It’s a good sign that you’re not a robot. Also, no offense to Krak, but leaving your back open during warfare is a questionable move no matter how you slice it…

insanemaniac.2456:

Ungood.3054:

SniffyCube.6107:

Just trying to keep the discussion going…It’s important that we try to find a solution, even if it seems like we’re being ignored atm… or are being ignored… can’t really tell

Pause and Ponder this,

They are using a very well developed and top notch system that is designed to build a individual profile for unique user and place them an ideal tier of skill to guess the outcome of several massive pugs.

If that does not scare you, it has not sunk in yet.

collectively, a server acts as a unique individual. youre missing the forest for the trees and assuming the rating applies at all to any of the trees. and you need to replace “skill” with “population” instead of even thinking a servers rating has anything whatsoever to do with “skill” from the massive population imbalances that have run rampant. so dont be scared, because the rating system is applicable. we just need more than 24 competitors (not happening), or for manual adjustments to take place when issues like 200 point rating gaps crop up.

I’d have to agree with Rikkity a little bit more on this one. Yes, it probably isn’t the smartest thing to think of an entire server as one person, but a server’s average turn out crowd is roughly the same as a person. The average skill level and coverage should remain more or less constant, only improving at the rate that the average person on the server is.

The only time it would shift or spike enough to be statistically relevant is when you have the people themselves change. While even paid transfers still leave some threat of this, and free transfers had this happen every other day, it shouldn’t happen on a massive scale any more.

I can’t disagree with you entirely Ungood, I just think (hope) that the people themselves would be consistant enough to take an average sampling as valid.

Let the debate continue! We will reach page ten!

I think it took DR 8 weeks of winning with several blowouts to go up a bracket, but IIRC that only happened because a dead server came crashing down.

Takerukun.8924:

The only time it would shift or spike enough to be statistically relevant is when you have the people themselves change. While even paid transfers still leave some threat of this, and free transfers had this happen every other day, it shouldn’t happen on a massive scale any more.

It doesn’t matter if it won’t happen any more… it already happened, and it put us where we are. The cows are out of the barn, and shutting the door now (turning off free transfers) isn’t going to put them back in.

Without a reset in points, the hole that was dug by the free transfers will continue to affect T8 servers forever. Without changes to the way match-ups are determined, even a point reset won’t help because in a few months we’ll be right back where we were (maybe with different servers, but same problem).

The way the math works, coupled with free transfers and a reward structure and ruleset within the game that encourages fast capping and zerging, rather than defending and even fights, is just going to continue to make the hole deeper. No amount of digging is going to get anyone out (SF needs to realize this).

They need to design a reward system and ruleset within the game that creates incentive for “good” battles… fighting on even footing or holding out against a larger force…rather than blowouts. They need to set up weekly matches based on a system that provides variety and fresh new experiences, not on stagnation and assured outcomes. In such a system, the worst-case scenario would be that FC and ET get blown out by a different server every week (if people are right about our relative strength, which I doubt), which is far preferable to getting blown out by the same server week-in, week-out for eternity.

Nobody really knows how ET or FC would do against any other server in the entire game…unless we have a match and try it. Nobody knows how any server would do against any other…the combination of three means that any new match-up is going to be very unpredictable. Obviously the way these matches end up is based very heavily on population…but the population on a server does not necessarily equate to the population participating in WvW, and the population participating in WvW one week does not equate to next week with a different match-up.

It’s an “any given sunday” situation, whether higher-tiered servers want to admit it or not. I think a lot of people think about these matches as if they were 1v1…where the stronger always wins no matter what. The truth is that having three opponents changes everything, and makes any match unpredictable and worth trying. The higher tiers like to think that they are sitting where they are because they are “better”, or “larger”. The fact is that all of the shifts during free transfers have fixed us in certain positions, and nobody can really say whether we belong where we are or not, unless we test it. Shake things up. Put FC in tier 1 for a week…what’s it going to hurt? What if the two other servers play each other to a stand-still, and FC ends up sneaking into second place or even winning that match? I know it would bruise a lot of egos…people who like to think their tier = skill of some sort…but it sure would be fun to just try. I guarantee you that you’d see dramatically higher participation rates on FC in a scenario like that…and that might change everything.

Isn’t the point to get players into WvW, and get them having fun? Or is the point to just cement a hierarchy of bragging rights and completely fixed outcomes so people can go through the motions every week?

Would FC get blown out in tier 7? What about tier 5? Would it hurt to find out? SF is beating them handily…but who knows, maybe without SF on their backs, FC would run roughshod over some other servers. Maybe with a new match-up, turnout would improve on FC and ET and it would be an entirely new ballgame.

My point is that we are currently in a hole that was created by circumstances in the past. We will never get out of it without some changes. If we never get out of the hole, WvW becomes increasingly stale and pointless, and participation continues to drop, and I don’t think that problem will be unique to T8…it’s just most obvious there. It’s the poster child for what will happen throughout the game if ArenaNet doesn’t fix this.

Imagine a stock car race where each team was allowed to change cars and change drivers any time they wanted. Stick with me for a sec…

Run that race in your head for a hundred laps or so…with cars and drivers changing randomly, new drivers and new cars coming on the track… now freeze all the cars in their current position.

By the current position of those cars, with those drivers, can you tell me which team would win a race if you started over? Of course you can’t. This is what we have right now with WvW rankings. Now they just want to call the race over, for all intents and purposes, and award trophies based on where the team just happens to be when the race ground to a halt.

Basically, we played wild and wooly musical chairs for the first five months of this game, then the music stopped and FC and ET ended up without a chair. Now, in purely elementary-school fashion, everyone wants to call the game and announce that because they currently have a chair, they “win” and nothing should ever change again. Sorry…let’s stand everyone back up and go another round, and let the chips fall where they may. The point is to play, isn’t it?

Now that we can’t change cars and drivers so freely, let’s start this race over and see who really is the better team. Why should how your server did four months ago matter now, when the people are different, the guilds are different, and all of your opponents are different? Only someone scared of the outcome would not want to play again. I’m sorry I missed the debate on the reset and math changes…because there should be a reset. There should be math changes. There should be rule changes within the game. Things aren’t cool the way they are.

Question here.

I was taking a look at the current potential ratings for T8 & it shows SF hovering slightly in positive rating & the same for T7 as it stands, there is roughly 100 rating points between SF & HoD.

Is it possible for SF to shunt up nudging HoD down, if SF were allowed to completely blow the match out? As in FC & ET resting the rest of the week to let SF go. Is that possible?

From my understanding so far; it’s okay for BG and SoR to have fought each other for 11 weeks prior to bursting through their Rating/Tier, but it’s not okay for T8 to have been fighting for 6 weeks? It’s okay for a server like SBI to fall to T8 (I wish they wouldn’t, and here’s hoping for that to not happen) in their condition, but it’s not okay for servers in their condition to be in T8?

If there was was a rating Reset, nearly every Tier would be another Kaineng vs Doors vs Doors scenario for a very long time, and everyone being in some rather unpleasant moods until they are reorganized to where they are now.

I honestly don’t get this thread, I really want to truly understand this.

What I want to know is why ET and FC are so desperate to fight other servers in their current state. As you go up in tiers in the current system, each tier is exponentially harder than the one below it. There are even large discrepancies in power and coverage within tiers that are fairly stable. That is to say if ET or FC eventually did beat SF consistently and move up a tier, they would be back to being crushed in their current state. Even if SF got the points to move up, they would probably be crushed in the tier above them.

What ET and FC are calling for is basically a full server population reroll so that they can have a fighting chance, not a point reset.

You’re at the bottom right now for a reason. It’s not going to change with a point reset unless you’re actively recruiting large guilds before the reset.

It’s frustrating, but there will always be a last place, just as there will always be a first place and a middle.

kerona.3465:

What ET and FC are calling for is basically a full server population reroll so that they can have a fighting chance, not a point reset.

I’m going to re-state what I said on the previous page, which are the two points that I feel are the crux of the problem we’re trying to discuss here. A reroll would solve point 1, which would theoretically invalidate point 2 as well, but I don’t think it’s fair to people happy where they are.

1. ET and FC do not have an appropriately matched third opponent, and more importantly:
2. ET/FC’s low ratings cause an excessive dragging effect on SF (or any other server eventually in SF’s current situation) which makes it very difficult for overqualified servers to get out of T8 when they are forced to fill that open slot.

Very few people are arguing that a reset will somehow improve ET/FC’s position. The problem is that SF’s performance has demonstrated that they are not an appropriate match for T8, but due to how ratings are calculated, they are being essentially held in T8 by ET/FC’s spectacularly low ratings. We do not know if HoD would be a better fit in T8, in all likelihood they would be no better for it; but at this rate it will be months before we find out, if at all. This much lack of mobility seems excessive for a server that seemed a perfect match for HOD in T7.

A ratings reset would have done two things.
1: It would have allowed SF a chance at a more accurate Tier for them, and MAYBE a more appropriate server into T8.

2: It would have reset ET/FC’s ratings, which would temporarily alleviate the dragging affect that they have on whatever server faces them.

It would not solve the problem permanently, as our two outlier servers ET/FC would continue to fall in ratings to a point where they become the drag that they are now on whoever they face. The current ratings system will always cause this to happen.

A re-roll, as you say, could indeed alleviate this problem, but that isn’t a certainty. ANet would have to watch server activity and try to balance out its player base, which would understandably upset a lot of people. It would almost certainly have to be followed by a ratings reset as well, for obvious reasons.

TL:DR: Instead, I propose two steps to potentially alleviate this problem:

First, ANET adjusts how they calculate ratings for outliers at the bottom of the scale. The spiral downward that consistent losers experience will drag more and more on servers just above them, in a fashion that can eventually doom them to being a part of the spiral. Adjust for that.

Second, do more to increase mobility to low-activity servers. Don’t make permanent changes, instead the occasional “transfer sale” to try to boost their populations. This would, in a controlled fashion, bring up servers like ET and FC so that they are not such a “step below the rest.” It’s a more constructive solution than trying to doom a third server to match their activity levels.

For those feeling lost or confused about the point of this thread:

The argument isn’t whether Ferg/ET ‘deserve’ to be in tier 8. The idea that it means we’re ‘last’ or ‘the worst’ is far less important than having a good match up. Thus, the problem is that Sorrow’s Furnace does not match up with tier 8 and they currently cannot climb out. Whether that math hole exists because FC sucks or was just the unfortunate whipping boy for Kaining and DR’s rise is secondary to the fact that it simply exists. Noting that, I think the evidence is relatively clear at this point that A. SF needs to escape tier 8 and B. It’s becoming exceedingly tougher for them to do so for reasons very eloquently stated in several places in this thread.

Labarge.1439:

The problems are two-fold:

1. ET and FC do not have an appropriately matched third opponent, and more importantly:

2. ET/FC’s low ratings cause an excessive dragging effect on SF (or any other server eventually in SF’s current situation) which makes it very difficult for overqualified servers to get out of T8 when they are forced to fill that open slot.

The 2nd problem is the one that I think can be more easily dealt with, as it is caused primarily by how ratings are calculated. Problem #1 is not a simple fix, as you correctly point out. However, not being simple doesn’t invalidate it as a problem, and at the very least something could be done to help alleviate problem #2.

I completely agree with your first point. This is the essence of the problem, and not just in T8. WvW (on NA) requires 8 perfectly matched sets of 3 servers each. This is simply not the case.

I’m not sure about your second point. The problem is a meta-game assumption by the developers (that there should be three evenly matched servers for every tier). If that were actually true, the algorithm would work just fine. Since the assumption is false, the algorithm does not work. This is not due to a problem with the algorithm, but a problem with the design of WvW.

The rating system is the runny nose, the server imbalance is the virus. We can try to treat the runny nose, by taking a decongestant, but that is a temporary solution. We need to cure the virus.

Labarge.1439:

Second, do more to increase mobility to low-activity servers. Don’t make permanent changes, instead the occasional “transfer sale” to try to boost their populations. This would, in a controlled fashion, bring up servers like ET and FC so that they are not such a “step below the rest.” It’s a more constructive solution than trying to doom a third server to match their activity levels.

This is the best solution for treating the virus: Manual WvW population grooming. Anet keeps hoping that the players will do this for themselves, but that will not happen. They cannot design an algorithm for it either, it wont work well, and people will learn to exploit it.

They cannot automate this task or leave it to the players, but an employee could do it well. Anet should already have someone keeping track of the state of WvW (if not, they need to get someone for this anyway). Give this person access to transfer magic.

It could go something like this. The Anet WvW GM puts up a first come first serve contract, allowing one guild of X size from a winning server to transfer to a losing one. The first guild that signs up with enough people gets the transfer. Once the contract infrastructure gets established, the GM can quickly and easily move the population around.

So Anet, if you take anything from this thread, take Labarge’s idea: Manual WvW Population Grooming.

kerona.3465:

What I want to know is why ET and FC are so desperate to fight other servers in their current state. As you go up in tiers in the current system, each tier is exponentially harder than the one below it. There are even large discrepancies in power and coverage within tiers that are fairly stable. That is to say if ET or FC eventually did beat SF consistently and move up a tier, they would be back to being crushed in their current state. Even if SF got the points to move up, they would probably be crushed in the tier above them.

What ET and FC are calling for is basically a full server population reroll so that they can have a fighting chance, not a point reset.

You’re at the bottom right now for a reason. It’s not going to change with a point reset unless you’re actively recruiting large guilds before the reset.

It’s frustrating, but there will always be a last place, just as there will always be a first place and a middle.

I don’t undertand. Where are you coming with the terribly ignorant assumptions that SF wouldn’t win T7 at least? All history of T8 to T7 jumps point to the fact that T7 is no better if not worse than t8

Darek.1836:

I don’t undertand. Where are you coming with the terribly ignorant assumptions that SF wouldn’t win T7 at least? All history of T8 to T7 jumps point to the fact that T7 is no better if not worse than t8

I live on T7, and honestly, I don’t think SF could win the tier.

SF has been winning for a while now. In my experience, blowouts do not help a server learn or grow. It makes them stupid (no offense intended). I’ve seen it happen to my server GoM, many times. I always cringed when we had a blowout in our favor, because I knew tough times were ahead and we would forget how to fight out-manned. Now perhaps SF handles blowouts better than GoM, I don’t know because I’m not on T8. (Before you bring up Kain, SF is not in the same boat at all, and we all know it.)

Here is what I do know: T7 has been VERY competitive. It has pushed all three servers to grow in tactics and numbers. GoM has built an alliance which has been surprisingly successful, and I know that HoD and DH have been learning and growing as well. Now all of our tactics and strats work for a while, but then the other team catches on and comes up with counters. SF may not know these strats or the counters, instead they will probably be used to numbers winning the day.

So, when SF comes back up to T7, they will not encounter what they saw before. Even if SF comes here with superior numbers (which would surprise me), they will be in for a shock. Stomping on underpopulated servers will not prepare them for T7.

Of course I could be wrong, and we will all see soon enough.

However, don’t assume that HoD will be weaker than SF. HoD has been doing nothing but improving since settling in at T7. Also don’t assume that DH and GoM can’t handle SF. DH has numbers and tactics, and GoM thrives while outnumbered.

T8 has improved in a very similar way. We WERE competitive for a while until the insane amounts of population increase SF got. All servers improve and you must realize it is definitely not solely T7 who has. However I agree SF has become increasingly stupid since they became the zergball and I think DH may give them a problem, but the rest of T7 will probably be left behind.
Also I’m still willing to bet HoD would lose in T8 to FC, and I don’t compare SF to Kain, I compare them to Devona.

I really don’t think that discussing how FC would do in T7 (or HOD in T8) speaks either way regarding the topic at hand. It’s a hypothetical regarding the result a symptom of the problem.

I think if a T7 server comes down and takes SF’s place, they may be in for a rude awakening. Ending up 1 tier above us through a massive number of only marginally controllable variables and serendipity and then claiming that equates to anything other than luck is complete folly. You’ve been honing your skills? Bring it on.

Why can’t we actually SEE who will win in various match-ups by actually playing them out, rather than having to speculate and guess about it on the forums? The current system sucks.

I think the whole ranking system should go away, and we should set up a “season” system where everyone plays everyone else a few times, match-ups change every single week, the wins and losses are totaled, and a score is arrived at based on the quality of your wins and losses. Server rewards should be based on current score, and after each season, it should reset. This rankings system just leads to people feeling superior for no reason.

If you haven’t played a server as they are today, you can’t say how you would do against them. Especially considering it’s a three-way match. Talk is cheap, and sadly talk is all we get in the current system.

Ketharius.9018:

From my understanding so far; it’s okay for BG and SoR to have fought each other for 11 weeks prior to bursting through their Rating/Tier, but it’s not okay for T8 to have been fighting for 6 weeks? It’s okay for a server like SBI to fall to T8 (I wish they wouldn’t, and here’s hoping for that to not happen) in their condition, but it’s not okay for servers in their condition to be in T8?

If there was was a rating Reset, nearly every Tier would be another Kaineng vs Doors vs Doors scenario for a very long time, and everyone being in some rather unpleasant moods until they are reorganized to where they are now.

I honestly don’t get this thread, I really want to truly understand this.

Its pretty simple really.

SF is currently 120,000+ points in the lead and is night capping the hell out of FC and ET whilst they are at work. What is their glicko rating shift for this awesome displace of timezone coverage advantage? +2.2 points.

How far behind HoD is SF? 107 points. At this rate FC and ET can look forward to getting completely out pop night cap dominated for the next 48 weeks in a row and they will still be fighting SF. SF players can’t get out fast enough. They would have to win by an impossible number of points to “convince” glicko that they do not in fact belong to tier 8 for the next 3 months straight because of one pre transfer loss that tanked their rating. Glicko expects them to score alot more points than they currently are and herein lies the absurdity of it all.

Tier 8 has become a glicko blackhole. The constant barrage of “lets bandwagon onto a t8 server to rise through the ranks” pet projects over the free transfer period has resulted in an absolutely enormous ratings difference between 1st and 2nd place in tier 8 so that not even light can escape this tier. FC and ET are probably two of the most stable WvW servers in the game, since they have endured months of totally asymmetric off peak timezone stacked beatdowns that would ordinarily send anyone with even a notion of hitching their guild to the bandwagon screaming to the hills.

An ELO type “soft reset” could help this situation but only if the rating of second and third place is adjusted closer to first place in tier 8. If its adjusted closer to the median rating then SF loses a tonne of points and they will be in tier 8 for the next 9 thousand years.

As long as the matches are fair, and ALL 3 of us deserve to be there, as it stands SF DOESN’T belong here. They’re a Tier 6 population at least, all we want is for Anet to make some adjustment to the math that’s keeping them here for so long, they’ve clearly demonstrated they’re superior in numbers, so why do they have to remain here so long?

People need to check http://mos.millenium.org/matchups#NA.

It seems like the problem here is that SF is only getting like 2 rating for their win. it would take them over 40 weeks of winning T8 to make it into T7.

If you look at Ehmry Bay in T5 or w/e, they’re on track for +32 rating for their stomp. Now, I’m personally skeptical that SF “should be in T6”. To me, that sounds like T8 players that probably don’t really grasp higher pop servers and overrate SF.

However, that doesn’t change the fact that 40 weeks of SF in T8 is probably a bit lame at best, and SF should have the “opportunity” to get crushed (or to succeed) in T7 within … 10 weeks? 5 weeks? 3 weeks? Something significantly quicker than the 110 rating deficit at 2.3 rating per week.

Seems like the calculations for rating changes needs some sort of softcap upper and lower limits to ensure that rating DOES change a decent amount per week.

Darek.1836:

I don’t undertand. Where are you coming with the terribly ignorant assumptions that SF wouldn’t win T7 at least? All history of T8 to T7 jumps point to the fact that T7 is no better if not worse than t8

Hah.

So once upon a time I was on Sorrow’s Furnace for like three and a half months. Then I converted to the cult of The Great Lord Flame Ram a month and a half ago and never looked back. Except when people try to call me ignorant for thinking SF would not do well in Tier 7.

Anyways.

Earlier this week Mos.millenium had SF score as going down. Even after we stomped ET/FC.
Yesterday, Anet posted the official scores and had SF score going up by 56 points.
Now, mos.millenium shows SF as going up by 56 points as well.

Does this mean Anet is actually doing something to balance things out?

Fozzik.1742:

I think the whole ranking system should go away, and we should set up a “season” system where everyone plays everyone else a few times, match-ups change every single week, the wins and losses are totaled, and a score is arrived at based on the quality of your wins and losses. Server rewards should be based on current score, and after each season, it should reset. This rankings system just leads to people feeling superior for no reason.

Wouldn’t this just result in “T8” servers getting destroyed by lots of different servers week after week?

If everyone plays everyone, “T1” servers would almost always win, “T8” servers would almost always lose. It might be good from an accurate rating perspective, but it would make WvW unfun 90% of the time. It would just be blowout after blowout after blowout…

titanlectro.5029:

Fozzik.1742:

I think the whole ranking system should go away, and we should set up a “season” system where everyone plays everyone else a few times, match-ups change every single week, the wins and losses are totaled, and a score is arrived at based on the quality of your wins and losses. Server rewards should be based on current score, and after each season, it should reset. This rankings system just leads to people feeling superior for no reason.

Wouldn’t this just result in “T8” servers getting destroyed by lots of different servers week after week?

If everyone plays everyone, “T1” servers would almost always win, “T8” servers would almost always lose. It might be good from an accurate rating perspective, but it would make WvW unfun 90% of the time. It would just be blowout after blowout after blowout…

I agree with this.

I briefly debated a season mechanic as well, but came to the same conclusion.
It would be worse than the rating reset that Anet planned, because the lower servers would have to constantly get thrown into unbalanced match ups ever couple of months.

No because the absence of ladder rankings does not mean you cannot create server pools by active player count and timezone coverage and then just do random match making within those pools. The absence of ladder rankings will remove only one thing – the fool’s notion that going up a rank means you are collectively doing better and going down a rank means you are collectively doing worse.

Besetment.9187:

Tier 8 has become a glicko blackhole. The constant barrage of “lets bandwagon onto a t8 server to rise through the ranks” pet projects over the free transfer period has resulted in an absolutely enormous ratings difference between 1st and 2nd place in tier 8 so that not even light can escape this tier. FC and ET are probably two of the most stable WvW servers in the game, since they have endured months of totally asymmetric off peak timezone stacked beatdowns that would ordinarily send anyone with even a notion of hitching their guild to the bandwagon screaming to the hills.

this problem is nothing new… DR and Kain were both rated about 600-700 points before they got their transfers, and the next server up hovered around 1000. it’s just back then … well i dunno, but the system’s been screwy for a long time, DR and Kain just accepted it cuz they knew they were completely abandoned from the start. FC and ET are just tired of it because we’re pretty sure we can get a better match from another server, but the rating places we inherited are so messed up we’ll probably never get the chance without intervention.

Besetment.9187:

No because the absence of ladder rankings does not mean you cannot create server pools by active player count and timezone coverage and then just do random match making within those pools. The absence of ladder rankings will remove only one thing – the fool’s notion that going up a rank means you are collectively doing better and going down a rank means you are collectively doing worse.

The more serious wuvwuvers have already transferred up in tiers during the existence of the ladder system. If there suddenly were no ladder system, most of the players in the higher servers would not suddenly go ‘welp, I guess I’ll transfer to a server with a cooler name or something’, nor would the mainly fair weather PvE players of the lower servers suddenly go ‘welp, time to WvW nonstop’. If a pool were created as described, matches would end up mostly being the same as servers are in the tiers they are in, with few exceptions, because of similar coverage, numbers, and motivation. When Kaineng, SBI, and IoJ settle to where they’re supposed to be, matches will be fairly stable until some large player movement.

DR and Kaineng’s rise should be considered atypical. DR Kaineng had a 1000+ member nighttime Korean guild move in from Tier 1. DR next week has the honor of fighting two freefalling servers that are the result of the movement to Kaineng and DR. Unless SF has had this sort of influx of large guilds, as well, it most likely will not be ascending far up the ranks. Kaineng/DR and SBI/IoJ are simply switching places as their membership did.

titanlectro.5029:

Fozzik.1742:

I think the whole ranking system should go away, and we should set up a “season” system where everyone plays everyone else a few times, match-ups change every single week, the wins and losses are totaled, and a score is arrived at based on the quality of your wins and losses. Server rewards should be based on current score, and after each season, it should reset. This rankings system just leads to people feeling superior for no reason.

Wouldn’t this just result in “T8” servers getting destroyed by lots of different servers week after week?

If everyone plays everyone, “T1” servers would almost always win, “T8” servers would almost always lose. It might be good from an accurate rating perspective, but it would make WvW unfun 90% of the time. It would just be blowout after blowout after blowout…

What do you think it is right now? Blowout week after week is exactly what we have, with no change in sight…no possibility of something new or different.

The point is variety. The point is that you don’t know how any particular three-server match-up will turn out until you try it. There’s a reason why they play each NFL game during the season…even though one team is favored. They play, because there are too many variables for anyone to accurately account for in order to make an accurate prediction. That is true here as well. You can’t say who would win until you play the game.

Right now, we are getting blown out week after week because one server happened to get a boom of population and then got stuck in an numbers hole so we have to play them for months on end. No other system could be worse for us, no matter how it played out. What I’m advocating is simply the idea that variety…that getting to see new faces, new guilds, and new tactics every week is preferable to months of the same match-up with pre-ordained outcomes.

What we know for a fact is that ET and FC can’t beat SF right now. We’ve established that beyond a shadow of a doubt. So why do we keep playing it out over and over? As to how either FC or ET would do against anyone else…we’ll never know unless we try. The current system is supposed to lead to good, evenly-matched games. In actuality, it leads to very few of those. What it does lead to is frustrating, crushing stagnation.

If we’re going to get blown out, I’d rather it be by a different server every week. To be honest, though…I’m willing to bet we would win some match-ups that nobody expected we could. Again, as has been stated numerous times by many people in this thread, but someone still isn’t getting through to some people… The current rankings are NOT a measure of how good or bad a server currently is. They aren’t even a measure of how populated a server might be. In the middle of the field, they are slightly more meaningful…but as you approach either T1 or T8 they are more and more controlled by what happened in the past, and less and less controlled by what’s happening right now.

Edit: In the current system, there’s no way in the world that ET or FC can ever recover from the bad breaks we got early on after the game’s release. Whatever else happens, however things change, we’re stuck. Instead of being able to look at each new week as a new opportunity to potentially prove ourselves…we get to look forward to playing in a hole we can never climb out of. Our only hope is either a change to the system, or a sudden, massive influx of people from God knows where. Want to come join us on FC? We’d love to have some new great players. ;-)

Well actually ET got here fair and square as they lost to every tier, though they have probably improved. FC on the other hand played in t7 one week again servers that went up to T6 then was stuck in T8 and eventually got dug into a hole by DR’s and KN’s rise, and even furthermore by SF. This basically brought ET down with us since they did similar to us, unfortunately.

kerona.3465:

So once upon a time I was on Sorrow’s Furnace for like three and a half months. Then I converted to the cult of The Great Lord Flame Ram a month and a half ago and never looked back. Except when people try to call me ignorant for thinking SF would not do well in Tier 7.

Your assumption that SF of a month and a half/two months ago is the same SF now, is just as laughable. There’s a lot that has improved, and I’m not just referring to numbers; but the lull of constantly winning is now having the opposite effect.

The alliances and cross guild/commander coordination is stagnating, most people are bored out of their minds in WvW on SF. So yeah, if we went to tier 7 could we be hit hard? Absolutely. Not because of skill and numbers, but because Anet refuses to resolve stagnation amongst the lower tiers and it’s effect will remain even after it’s resolved.

Fozzik.1742:

What do you think it is right now? Blowout week after week is exactly what we have, with no change in sight…no possibility of something new or different.

The point is variety. The point is that you don’t know how any particular three-server match-up will turn out until you try it. There’s a reason why they play each NFL game during the season…even though one team is favored. They play, because there are too many variables for anyone to accurately account for in order to make an accurate prediction. That is true here as well. You can’t say who would win until you play the game.

I have to say that I disagree with you on both points.

1) Your argument is essentially that it couldn’t get any worse. Of course, that argument only applies to T8, whereas most of the other servers are much more balanced. But even in T8, it can get worse.

There are blowouts like you have been living with, and there are blowouts where you are spawn-camped on every map all the time. Perhaps you remember those? I do; there were entire weeks where we only got 10k points. They are worse than what happens to you right now, by far. It can most definitely get worse, and that is what will happen >50% of the time for ET and FC, the rest of the time you will only be destroyed like you are currently. Do you honestly think that will improve moral as you seek to prove yourself?

2) Sports are a bad analogy for how WvW works. I almost put this in my last post, but decided to leave it out.

If WvW were the NFL, then some teams would get to field 50 players at a time, and others only 8 or even 4. The season structure would be completely destroyed as games where decided by numbers and not skill. This is why football has rules to keep things fair and even. They even have rules which are intended to distribute players fairly (budget limits, drafting rules, etc). You never know how a game will go because they worked hard to make it that way.

The same cannot be said about WvW. You can make 100% accurate predictions in WvW. You can most definitely tell who is going to win without playing the game much of the time. No one would bet on a match between say, Kain vs ET vs FC. Everyone know what will happen, for sure, 100%. Unlike sports, there are no “errors” which cause lasting impact. Points are just reclaimed, and mistakes don’t take long to correct.

titanlectro.5029:

1) Your argument is essentially that it couldn’t get any worse. Of course, that argument only applies to T8, whereas most of the other servers are much more balanced. But even in T8, it can get worse.

There are blowouts like you have been living with, and there are blowouts where you are spawn-camped on every map all the time. Perhaps you remember those? I do; there were entire weeks where we only got 10k points. They are worse than what happens to you right now, by far. It can most definitely get worse, and that is what will happen >50% of the time for ET and FC, the rest of the time you will only be destroyed like you are currently. Do you honestly think that will improve moral as you seek to prove yourself?

i was there for those bad blowouts. they were the work of an obviously t1-t3 server. the current blowouts are the work of a t5-t8 server, and the difference is smaller, but still very distinguishable. but i include t8 in there because we do not know how other servers will fare in t8 (having not played them for months, if ever), and we will not know because the system is broken.

a blowout is a blowout, and SF does not belong in t8 until we know for sure again that they cant stand on their own in at least t7. but we dont know. and we wont.

insanemaniac.2456:

titanlectro.5029:

1) Your argument is essentially that it couldn’t get any worse. Of course, that argument only applies to T8, whereas most of the other servers are much more balanced. But even in T8, it can get worse.

There are blowouts like you have been living with, and there are blowouts where you are spawn-camped on every map all the time. Perhaps you remember those? I do; there were entire weeks where we only got 10k points. They are worse than what happens to you right now, by far. It can most definitely get worse, and that is what will happen >50% of the time for ET and FC, the rest of the time you will only be destroyed like you are currently. Do you honestly think that will improve moral as you seek to prove yourself?

i was there for those bad blowouts. they were the work of an obviously t1-t3 server. the current blowouts are the work of a t5-t8 server, and the difference is smaller, but still very distinguishable. but i include t8 in there because we do not know how other servers will fare in t8 (having not played them for months, if ever), and we will not know because the system is broken.

a blowout is a blowout, and SF does not belong in t8 until we know for sure again that they cant stand on their own in at least t7. but we dont know. and we wont.

I agree. I was not trying to belittle the frustration in T8 at the moment. My comments were in response to the idea of a “everyone plays everyone” season format. I believe that this would be even worse than T8’s already painful situation.

titanlectro.5029:

I agree. I was not trying to belittle the frustration in T8 at the moment. My comments were in response to the idea of a “everyone plays everyone” season format. I believe that this would be even worse than T8’s already painful situation.

^What Titanlectro said. T8 might stand a chance against T7, they might not. We won’t know until those match-ups happen. Could T8 stand against T6? Debatable, but probably not. T5 and above would wonder if T8 was even on the map.

Change could be good, but the idea that trading one blowout for another would be enjoyable for any server involved is laughable if it kept up for more than 2 weeks. I’ve said this before, but I’ll say it again: It might be a breath of fresh air for the stomped tiers at first, but when the wonder and awe has worn off, it would be the same old stale cesspool we have at the moment. Even worse, we would be dragging the upper tiers which have already started to balance into it as well. (Not that all the upper tiers have balanced…)

Changing things up so we saw a couple of the servers in T7 probably wouldn’t be that bad, but we’re getting over-confident for no real reason if we seriously think we stand a chance against the higher populated servers.

So would the choices be reset tiers or closed the servers on the lowest bracket and allow people out of those servers to ones of their choice?

Fozzik.1742:

What do you think it is right now? Blowout week after week is exactly what we have, with no change in sight…no possibility of something new or different.

Er, not gonna scroll through the thread to look at what matchup you’re talking about in detail, but there is no blowout in T8. SF is winning by a pretty wide margin, but they only have 55% of the total score. A blowout is when they’re winning by a hell of a lot more than that, lmao.